Knicks Morning News (2018.07.14)

Wut

I dunno about how great our young core is but we’re definitely in a better place and on a better trajectory than we have in a long time. Just having a management trio that are not embarrassing themselves and making us the laughing stock of the NBA is pretty nice.

The problem for us is that we are possibly going to be too good this year to snag a stud in a thin draft class. But then again, who imagined that we’d find a guy like Mitch in the 2nd round? And if we surprise and win 30-35 games, it would have to mean that some of the young guys are playing very well and that Fiz is doing a great job, right?

@3

No idea, that’s kinda how I took it.

There are reasons to be legitimately excited about this core but yeah, I would trade everyone on it for Embiid / Simmons / Saric.

I was taking injury risk into consideration (Embiid, Markelle). 76ers core is better at present but I’d rather have the Knick group looking 2+ years out. Mitch is a stud. KP and he will provide best rim protection in history of NBA. Frank and Mitch could end up best PnR defenders in league.

I think Baker is a likely candidate (sad!) and if Noah is stretched, that should do it.

Ron would have a cap hold of 5.7m in 2019 summer. Knicks would probably have to renounce him to sign max free agent and thereby lose 2-year bird rights to go over cap to re-sign him. Would have to use room exception then to re-sign him if he wants more than min. Limiting our options turns out to be another negative to giving him that large deal and therefore he could be the guy who is cut first.

Good to see Dotson finally play a good game.

Here’s the question with the Knicks.

If you look at KP, Knox, Frank, and Robinson, it looks like we have 4 quality core pieces to try to develop and go forward with. We should get to add another after next season. We also have a few quality players on the bench. The problem is that core is probably 4-5 years away from just starting to peak assuming things go well as far as that development goes.

Knox – 18
Frank -19
Robinson – 20
KP – 22

Absent changes, they will probably be terrible next year, a fringe team the year after that with a healthy KP, get knocked out early the year after that etc.. They are eventually going to need to add another genuine star (somehow) and the same kind of quality veterans the 76ers brought in like Ilyasova, Redick, and Belinelli to help accelerate the process and give them experience in the playoffs.

The question is who, how much, and when.

I’m not so sure keeping Noah around for another year would be the worst idea assuming the relationship isn’t beyond repair and they aren’t just giving us lip service about a fresh start now.

We have Kanter, Robinson, and Kornet as our big men. Kornet does not look like an NBA player right now. I’m also not so sure Robinson is going to be ready to get 20 minutes a night right from the start. The upside of keeping Noah is the same as it was supposed be late in the contract to begin with. If anyone can help teach Robinson defense, it’s Noah. The other upside is that instead of stretching him in September, perhaps we can move him or stretch him later when there will be less money involved and someone may need him if he looks OK this year. No matter how you slice it, I can’t really find the downside of keeping him. It’s not like if we stretch him now we can add a critical piece now.

I would keep Noah in the backup roll early (replacing KOQ) and slowly ease Robinson into that roll as he develops and shows he’s ready to handle bigger stronger guys in the NBA. At that point they can worry about Noah.

Timmy for Shumpert’s 1 year contract works.
Maybe they can include Justin Jackson as a face saving measure for Mills.

@13 Yeah, although I think it’s reasonable to say that our young core is more promising than any young . core we’ve had since, like, forever. Robinson in and of himself is about as exciting of an unexpected gift prospect as you can get. KP is a solid player as is (assuming knee issues don’t limit him) but it remains to be seen if he can get to the next level (legit all-star). Knox is all hype right now but the potential is definitely there. Frank has a long way to go on offense before I could be confident in calling him anything but a defensive wing, but at least there’s hope since he’s so young. Honestly, there’s cause to be excited about Troy Williams and even Dotson.

One thing we should see plenty of next year, especially after KP comes back, are highlight reel dunks!

I think it’s up to the coaches to coach, not washed up players.

this is rock bottom

Explain the upside of stretching him now.

So we have a cap hit for longer than the contract even though we can always stretch him later?

To reduce the possibility of moving him later when there’s less time on the contract from remote to zero?

To lose the defensive mentorship even though Robinson is utterly clueless about how to play basketball?

Personally, I don’t think Robinson is going to be ready for a major backup role of 20 minutes a night from day 1. Since we no longer have Willy or KOQ, we could actually use a big man and defensive mentor. If you don’t trust my judgement on Robinson being ready that’s fine, but there are some pretty sharp basketball minds suggesting we send him down to the G league for a few months until he learns how to play basketball and gets stronger. Right now he’s playing 100% on athleticism. He has no idea what he’s doing and was getting pushed around by really strong summer league players.

I’m suggesting keeping him at the NBA level and playing him, but going from a small role, to 20 minutes, to hopefully taking over the starting job next year as he’s ready. If he’s ready quicker, throw him out there.

Personally, I don’t think Robinson is going to be ready for a major backup role of 20 minutes a night from day 1.

Why not? This team is not playing to win. It should put Robinson up against the best players in the NBA to expose him to that level of competition. These are grown men — you don’t need to coddle them. If he’s made from the right cloth, and the Knicks do the right things behind the scenes, he’ll improve.

If he’s not going to play, send him to Westchester. But why do that when the best outcome is 17 wins and a 50% shot at a top-4 pick?

I didn’t realize that Kanter led the entire league in offensive rebounding % last year. That’s no small feat!

I wonder if they’ll play him and MitchRob together for spurts? If Enes could make a three occasionally that might help.

Agree on Noah. But wouldnt surprise me if he came back and had an excellent season.

I see zero upside in waiving Noah now unless it’s just purely for the roster spot, which may be a real concern if we’re unable to move Lee in an asymmetric deal (ie. Lee + someone for 1 player). In that case, I guess it’s fine — better to do something in September that you’re pretty sure you’re going to do in July if it allows you to keep someone else you like (ie. Baker, Troy Williams, or whoever).

Missed last night’s game too, but man I like looking at those Mitch Robinson box scores.

We might have the best (or most promising) young core in the league:
Mitch/KP/Knox/Frank/top 5 2019 pick > Embiid/Simmons/Markelle/Saric??

I am the co-founder of Team Optimism and I think this is delusional to the point of being involuntarily committed to a psychiatric institution. But hey it’s fine.

Where’s Ephus – great time to be a Knick fan!

as far as I can tell on twitter, Ephus is spending his time trying to resuscitate an even sicker patient than our sad sack Knicks — our democracy. It definitely was a simpler time in 2012-13 with Melo/Pablo/Tyson/Kidd, etc.

Wow..Jabari Parker got 20mm/yr? And to think a few of us wanted to kick the tires on him. I guess the good thing is it’s a 2 yr deal..but it’s still a cap wrecker because he’s not likely to become dominant and earn what his next deal is likely to be. All that money Chicago is spending..are we sure Isaiah isn’t handing out contracts there? Can’t be Phil because Lavine and Parker don’t necessarily fit the triangle..

Why not? This team is not playing to win. It should put Robinson up against the best players in the NBA to expose him to that level of competition. These are grown men — you don’t need to coddle them. If he’s made from the right cloth, and the Knicks do the right things behind the scenes, he’ll improve. If he’s not going to play, send him to Westchester. But why do that when the best outcome is 17 wins and a 50% shot at a top-4 pick?

IMO, there are multiple reasons.

1. You don’t want skinny teenager or 20 year old kid getting mauled and banged around every night by much stronger men down low. It raises the risk of getting hurt. Why do you think KP wants to play PF instead C and why so many SFs don’t want to play stretch PF?

2. When one player on the team is utterly clueless on both ends, it hurts the development of
a cohesive offense and defense where everyone knows what to do. If one of them is always in the wrong spot doing the wrong thing it will screw everyone else up.

3. IMO, players should earn minutes on merit.

He can benefit from a few months in the gym working out, getting stronger, improving his skills, and catching up on the things he missed learning because he wasn’t playing. Noah would be perfect because he’s a former DPOY.

We aren’t going to win more games keeping Noah around to play backup for a couple of months. We are going to let the clock run out on his contract and let him teach Robinson how to play basketball. Even if we win 1-2 extra games, that will be offset by faster development and the potential for not having Noah on the cap as long. Position in the draft matters, but we just got a potential monster at 36 and a lot of people think we got a huge bargain at 9. Drafting seems to be our one major skill as an organization. We’ll be fine.

So what’s the opening night starting lineup as of now? Assuming we can’t trade Lee, my best guess is:

Frank-THJ-Lee-Knox-Kanter

Blech. At least it’s tanktastic but not much in the way of watchability.

If Lee is traded, or we just stop caring about getting him minutes, we might see:

Frank-THJ-Hezonja-Knox-Kanter

That’s, uh, just as tanktastic but maybe a tad more watchable?

I hope before too long we try something like:

Burke-Frank-Hezonja-Knox-Robinson

If/when KP returns:

Burke-Frank-Knox-KP-Robinson is intriguing in some ways.

It’ll be interesting to see what Fizdale settles on, both as a starting lineup and just the rotation in general. It’s hard to accommodate all of our key players’ optimal positions at once.

1. You don’t want skinny teenager or 20 year old kid getting mauled and banged around every night by much stronger men down low. It raises the risk of getting hurt. Why do you think KP wants to play PF instead C and why so many SFs don’t want to play stretch PF?

Just imagine how much better Garnett’s or Chandler’s career would have been if they’d ridden the bench their rookie years!

2. When one player on the team is utterly clueless on both ends, it hurts the development of
a cohesive offense and defense where everyone knows what to do. If one of them is always in the wrong spot doing the wrong thing it will screw everyone else up.

Does he looks clueless so far? You have to play these guys to get them to adjust to the NBA game. Watching Noah from the bench will not improve his game nearly as much as, y’know, playing.

3. IMO, players should earn minutes on merit.

Well in that case, Lee should start over Ntilikina — he’s an 11-year veteran, for heaven’s sake!!!!!!!

He can benefit from a few months in the gym working out, getting stronger, improving his skills, and catching up on the things he missed learning because he wasn’t playing. Noah would be perfect because he’s a former DPOY.

Working out — can be done by playing regular minutes.
Getting stronger — can be done while playing regular minutes.
Improving his skills — can be done by playing regular minutes.
Catching up on the things he missed learning (in the NCAA, which plays a completely different style ball than the NBA) because he wasn’t playing — can be done by playing regular minutes.

Noah would be perfect for what? Being an old, washed-up, overpaid player who’ll play like shit on offense, which Robinson will watch and get better from? Huh? This makes no sense at all.

I’ll be very surprised if Mudiay is not starting, at least for awhile…

I may be completely wrong with the stats but I think hezonja is a much better passer than Timmy. Therefore a starting line up of
Frank, hezonja, Knox, kanter, Mitch using timmy as a 6 th man is the best line up we can conjure. Unless of course Timmy can run point with frank then Mitch is the odd man out.

I just feel like hezonja with Knox is a better fit than Timmy with Knox.

Play MitchRob and all the youngsters major minutes.
Win 20 games or less and get a top 3 pick.

It’s a complete no brainer.

Noah is as done as last Thanksgiving’s turkey, stick a fork in him.
If he plays any minutes in more than 5 games next year color me very shocked. It might end up as the worst signing in Knicks history (relative to playing time and production) which is really saying something.

Okay can we please agree about the endowment effect on this one

sure

Robinson is some second round pick.

Watch it- you’re talking about the all-time leader in summer league blocked shots and offensive rebounds. And the all-time PER, rebounds per 40, and second in blocks player in Nike EYDL history! During the telecast of the Boston game Fran Fraschilla said his FLOOR was Whiteside without all the issues. Take all of that with the big grain of salt it deserves but it is really, really hard to believe he fell as far as he did in the draft.

There were obviously lots of teams that didn’t do their due diligence on Robinson, and he also didn’t do workouts so he was very much a cipher coming into the draft. Our FO obviously knew how good he was, as they considered trading up a few spots to nab him.

It’s very un-Dolan’s Razor for something of good fortune like this to happen to NYK.

Sheesh, y’all have been trapped in a cave for 2 decades. Every now and then over those 20 years, a sliver of light would shine through and you’d be exuberant and hopeful only to be plunged back into the darkness. But now a seismic shift occurs, the cave entrance is open, a crush of sunshine hits your eyes, you’re blinded and scramble back into the cave and don’t want to leave. It’s safe to come out now. It’s a beautiful sight.

Here was my original comment:

We might have the best (or most promising) young core in the league:
Mitch/KP/Knox/Frank/top 5 2019 pick > Embiid/Simmons/Markelle/Saric??

I said “might have” and put two question marks at end of comparison. I later clarified I was taking injury risk (Embiid and Markelle) into consideration. If one of those 2 guys doesn’t pan, then yes I’d rather have our young core.

But let’s compare our core to that of other teams:

Boston: Tatum/Brown/Rozier
Chicago: Dunn/LaVine/Markannen/WCJ/Jabari?
Lakers: Ball/Ingram/Hart/Kuzma
Phoenix: Ayton/Booker/Mikal/Jackson
Denver: Jokic/Harris/Murray/MPJ
Milwaukee: Giannis/Brogdon/DiVincenzo
Charlotte Lamb/Kaminski/WHG/Monk/Miles Bridges
Dallas: Doncic/Smith/Brunson
Memphis: JJJ/Carter
Minnesota: KAT/Wiggins/Jones/Bates-Diop/Okogie
Sacramento: Bags/WCS/Hield/Fox/Jackson/Giles/Mason
Orlando: Fournier/Gordon/Bamba/Isaac

I wouldn’t choose any of those over the Knicks. Discussion to follow.

Fans don’t weight defense as much as they should and when you look at that list it’s obvious to me that our group is waaay better than any of those other cores. Frank/KP/Mitch are game changers on defense and I believe Knox will be at least average. Resident KB historian Donnie Walsh has confirmed my statement we’ll have best rim protection in history of NBA.

On offense, we saw the effect Tyson had on our offense by just being able to dive to rim and collapse defenses; we had #3 offense that year. Mitch should have a similar effect (and provide more offensive rebounding to boot) KP + Knox > Melo + JR. And I’m presuming Mitch won’t be very good at anything else on offense: shooting/passing/post-ups. He just needs to hit his free throws at a decent clip or that will be a problem.

Bottom Line: Our young core has potential for elite defense and the pieces fit well on offense.

Yeah, but might doesn’t even cover it. We straight up don’t have a better young core than other teams. KP is oft injured, can’t score efficiently or rebound.

Ntillikina’s offense makes him unplayable.

Other 2 have 0 minutes of effective NBA basketball.

Where are you looking?
I’d take Giannis for the lot of them or Simmons in a trade for 3 of them.

It’s a bit crazy to compare our youngsters to those on other teams. We have 2 guys that haven’t played a second of NBA ball yet.

MitchRob or WCJr?

I’d feel so much better if we took SGA over Knox. He was the guy I wanted if you were concerned about Mikals age, and I said as much on here before SL. The Spider-Man backcourt of him and Frank with KP had me giddy, and now with Mr Robinson looking like this……damn

@63 Selby was a smallish PG who couldn’t shoot or pass. Tyler… not sure what his skills were, but he also skipped his senior year of high school. I don’t know how much they played in the major showcase tournaments/competitions. Robinson’s skills were easily translatable: a mobile, long 7 footer with insane leaping ability… you can’t take that away. And there’s tape of him getting the best of the other top big men in the class, including the #1 pick.

I think teams passing on Robinson had more to do with the league “trending” away from bigs and GMs suddenly wanting “shooters” at all 5 positions no matter what. That’s why Williams dropped so far and why the Lakers took Wagner over Robinson in the 1st round. So we should perhaps thank the Warriors for Robinson dropping to us.

I remember posting Selby’s PAWS40 numbers and being told I was an idiot for using them to evaluate him as a prospect. Of course, we all know how that turned out.

High-school accolades mean very little.

Don’t worry, KP will have his usual strong start to 2019-20 and it will be Year Four of, “I’d take KP over Towns and Jokic” before, well, you know.

Would you trade Porzingis for Jokic, Towns or Giannis straight up? If the answer is no, you need to sober up.

You’re asking the wrong question.

KP + Robinson > Giannis
KP + Robinson > Towns + Wiggins
KP + Robinson > Jokic + Harris

And the all-time PER, rebounds per 40, and second in blocks player in Nike EYDL history!… his FLOOR was Whiteside without all the issues…

“Mr Robinson, you’re trying to seduce me.”

Remember when Melo was pushing for them to select Selby?

the irony of a spasmodic berri sycophant who drops in exclusively to spew half-wit venom refusing to suffer fools

glad I dropped in today…no one does it better than ptmilo 🙂

only got to watch a bit of the summer league stuff…

man, I wish they’d force frank to dribble and drive more…he really needs some help with his handle…still lots of sloppy/lazy passes…

knox looks a lot better than expected…still has a lot of developing to do, but, seems like a legit prospect…

wow, mitchrob is gonna make me re-think my thoughts on 2nd round picks being meaningless…that kid has got some serious young legs right there…

I’m hoping we can have him playing a good 20 minutes a night right out the shoot…can’t wait to see him and kp play together…

I understood what he meant completely, but comparing Berri to jon abbey/flossy/the rest of 2011’s deluded is pretty weak. (Or saying that because I don’t suffer the fool known as jon abbey, it’s ironic to suffer a tenured academic economist fool at Southern Utah.) Last I checked, ptmilo was the one responsible for ending the WP48 debate by saying “it doesn’t correlate with RAPM so it’s nonsense,” which, haha, I mean, okay?

I understood what he meant completely, but comparing Berri to jon abbey/flossy/the rest of 2011’s deluded is pretty weak. (Or saying that because I don’t suffer the fool known as jon abbey, it’s ironic to suffer a tenured academic economist fool at Southern Utah.) Last I checked, ptmilo was the one responsible for ending the WP48 debate by saying “it doesn’t correlate with RAPM so it’s nonsense,” which, haha, I mean, okay?

He wasn’t referring to you.

EDITED TO ADD: I see he just noted that, as well.

OMG.

The mystery guest for the next “It’s a Hard #Knicks Life” podcast told me he “once clocked Mitchell Robinson run the entire length of the court in 2.8 seconds.”

Also I am perfectly comfortable using BPM as my flawed metric of choice nowadayz

What do you suppose Terry Francona is going to look like once he needs to have his lower jaw removed? I hope we never find out, for his sake.

How ironic is it that the #36 pick in that Melo trade could make enduring all of the jab stepping, ball-stopping, not trying on defense, meee lo branding, etc worthwhile?

But he fired his after he signed his contract?

the irony of a spasmodic berri sycophant who drops in exclusively to spew half-wit venom refusing to suffer fools

Great poetry.

The article in the Post about Robinson’s agent indicates that the problem Robinson had wasn’t with the four-year, two-option contract, but rather with the fact that Robinson was advised to skip the combine. So that’s good I guess. His new agent John Spencer is kind of a nobody. Lance Thomas is his biggest client.