Knicks Morning News (2016.12.14)

  • [NYDN] Knicks, without Derrick Rose, lose physical battle against Suns
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 8:53:35 PM)

    Jeff Hornacek’s return to Phoenix became an exercise in disappointment for the Knicks.

  • [NYDN] Phil Jackson’s ‘posse’ problem won’t hurt Knicks in free agency
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 8:07:38 PM)

    Phil’s got 99 problems but attracting free agents isn’t one.

  • [NYDN] Derrick Rose re-injures back, leaves Knicks game early
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 5:44:09 PM)

    Rose missed all six of his field goal attempts before being subbed out on Tuesday.

  • [NYDN] Chandler thinks Phil Jackson did a great job motivating LeBron
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:25:04 PM)

    Tyson Chandler’s interactions with Phil Jackson consisted of two conversations:

  • [NYDN] Hornacek regrets firing ass’ts in effort to appease Suns brass
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:53:50 AM)

    In hindsight, Jeff Hornacek knows he shouldn’t have bowed to the Suns’ unfair demands.

  • [NYDN] Derrick Rose starting to run more of the Knicks’ show
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:39:22 AM)

    Derrick Rose said his increase in play calling occurred organically, and it continues to evolve.

  • [NYPost] Knicks display resolve, but moral victories don’t cut it anymore
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:09:55 PM)

    They were a jangle of thoughts, opinions, emotions as they walked off the floor at Talking Stick Resort Arena late Tuesday night. Somehow, the Knicks had nearly pulled off their most satisfying victory of the season and yet, instead, wound up suffering their most excruciating loss instead. Such is life in the NBA when you…

  • [NYPost] Derrick Rose exits with back spasms: ‘I couldn’t move’
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 8:00:58 PM)

    PHOENIX — In the long run for the Knicks, Tuesday’s 113-111 overtime loss to the woeful Suns could be secondary to the loss of Derrick Rose 10 minutes into the first quarter. Rose’s back spasms flared up after he appeared to take a tumble into a row of cameras. He missed the final three quarters…

  • [NYPost] Knicks, Kristaps Porzingis show fight but drop overtime crusher
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 7:10:41 PM)

    PHOENIX — Kristaps Porzingis got mad and got even. But he didn’t finish or get the win. After Derrick Rose went down with recurring back spasms and missed the final three quarters Tuesday night, it appeared the Suns were trying to take out Porzingis, too. They failed and only got the 7-foot-3 Latvian steamed. After…

  • [NYPost] Carmelo, Rose pleading for this Knicks offensive wrinkle
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:14:17 AM)

    PHOENIX – Carmelo Anthony says he and Derrick Rose have only scratched the surface of how dangerous they can be as a tandem offensively. Indeed, there has been a push from both Knicks studs, Rose and Anthony, to have coach Jeff Hornacek call more pick-and-rolls for the two of them. And Hornacek is seeing the…

  • [NYPost] Michael Rapaport is all in on his podcast obsession
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 7:39:07 AM)

    This is what gets Michael Rapaport excited. It’s not news about his latest film or a big role, it’s a phone call from a basketball player. Former Knicks star Latrell Sprewell had called him days earlier, agreeing to appear on Rapaport’s podcast. “It was Spree, f—ing” Spree,” Rapaport says, unable to contain the pure joy of talking to the…

  • [ESPN] Wednesday’s Knicks News: Tough night in the desert
    (Wednesday, December 14, 2016 5:41:16 AM)

    Wednesday’s Knicks News: Tough night in the desert

  • [ESPN] Tuesday’s Knicks News: Hornacek downplays return to Phoenix
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 6:12:42 AM)

    Tuesday’s Knicks News: Hornacek downplays return to Phoenix

  • [NYTimes] Suns 113, Knicks 111, Overtime: Suns’ Eric Bledsoe Topples Knicks With 31 Points, and a Layup in Overtime
    (Wednesday, December 14, 2016 5:42:46 AM)

    Bledsoe had his third straight game with at least 30 points, helping the Suns overcome a 34-point performance from Kristaps Porzingis.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks’ fourth-quarter comeback spoiled in overtime loss to Suns
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:16:52 PM)

    PHOENIX (AP) Eric Bledsoe scored the go-ahead points on a driving, left-handed layup with 30 seconds to play and the Phoenix Suns beat New York 113-111 in overtime on Tuesday night, only the Knicks’ second loss in eight games.

  • [SNY Knicks] Rose exits game in first quarter with back spasms
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:10:42 PM)

    Derrick Rose exited the Knicks game against the Suns in the first quarter with back spasms

  • [SNY Knicks] Hornacek returns to Phoenix for first time since getting fired
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 6:30:53 PM)

    Knicks head coach Jeff Hornacek is downplaying Tuesday night’s return to Phoenix, where he served as head coach for a year and a half before getting fired midway through last season.

  • [SNY Knicks] Tonight’s Game: Knicks at Suns
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 5:50:42 PM)

    The Knicks (14-10) head to Phoenix to take on the Suns (7-17) Tuesday night.

  • [SNY Knicks] What more could you have asked for so far from the Knicks?
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:50:16 PM)

    What more could you ask for as we speak right now when talking about the New York Knicks?

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks go for fifth straight road win in Phoenix on Tuesday
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:25:14 PM)

    The Knicks travel to Phoenix looking for their fifth straight win on the road as they take on the Suns Tuesday night.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks battle into overtime, but lose to Phoenix Suns
    (Wednesday, December 14, 2016 1:19:57 AM)

    In Jeff Hornacek’s return to Phoenix, Derrick Rose returned to the trainer’s table, and Kristaps Porzingis showed more anger than he has in his brief Knicks’ career.

  • [NY Newsday] Tyson Chandler not surprised by Phil Jackson irking Carmelo Anthony and LeBron James
    (Wednesday, December 14, 2016 12:27:18 AM)

    Former Knick Tyson Chandler said he had only two conversations with team president Phil Jackson.

  • [NY Newsday] Derrick Rose-Carmelo Anthony combination a work in progress
    (Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:14:46 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony and Derrick Rose want to play off of each other more, and they think it will make the Knicks more dangerous.

  • 147 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2016.12.14)”

    If Derrick Rose’s back spasms are going to continue to be an issue, the Knicks really need to sign a more reliable third point guard.

    They can’t be in a situation where they won’t know if his back will seize up until the game’s already begun.

    I’m surprised the team thought we could go the entire season with Rose as our starting PG and wouldn’t need a backup plan in the eventuality of his missing games due to injury. Dude is way too injury prone.

    I didn’t get to watch any of the 1st or 4th quarter and OT, but we were bound to lose one of these close ones.

    Is Melo hurt? He has thrown up more airballs in the past week or two than I can remember. He looks like he’s running in molasses on both ends of the court. I really think Hornacek should consider resting him for Thursday’s inevitable GS beatdown.

    Hornacek also has to figure out something to get KP more rest. He is our everything right now but playing what seems like near 40 minutes every game at his effort level is not sustainable.

    And Jennings – I love his moxie but it seems pretty clear to me that he’s good against backups or as an adjunct PG with Rose, but put him up against good starters and he’s woefully overmatched. He just cannot defend well enough, and his shooting is way too streaky.

    Hornacek also has to figure out something to get KP more rest. He is our everything right now but playing what seems like near 40 minutes every game at his effort level is not sustainable.

    He rests KP now and we lose. Its that simple right now, especially with Rose out.

    We definitely need a third PG. Do we get someone from the DLeague, sign Chalmers, or try to swing a trade?

    Minnesota has a billion PGs on their shitty team. Can’t we trade for one with a 2nd round pick?

    Last night’s thread and subsequent *analysis* shows a lot of ‘optimists’ downright panicking over a simple loss to the Suns.

    Why?

    Maybe they are not as optimistic about the team’s true strength? Maybe they are not so confident about their own ‘analysis’?

    I gave you the news yesterday, *before* the game, in the middle of the 14-10 euphoria: this is a 37-win team (plus/minus 3 wins) and this is what 37-win teams frequently play like.

    Rose injured? I told you yesterday *before* the game. There will be more and more serious. I told you before the season and I’m reminding you now.

    This is the team we have.

    Noah is useless? I told you – but he has been useless even when they held the fool’s-gold-quality 14-10 record for 36 hours.

    Melo far from a star? I told you, just like I told you that all these formerly-good players would have the occasional great game and gullible fans would be singing their praise, screaming in joy and showing it as proof the pessimists are haters, not objective, and the team is “turning the corner”, well on its way to greatness.

    I could go on and one…but this one is for Jowles and the Truth Brigade led by Theo the Pessimist.

    Rebuild, because we are NOT one Chris Paul away from competing for a ring. Right now, and for the foreseeable future, we are the accountant running the NYC marathon for fun, not the skinny african with an exotic name.

    Farmar would be my guess for the last PG. He played decently in limited minutes for SAC and has history with Phil.

    shocking – Theo is back.

    I was ‘back’ when the ‘optimists’ were projecting their delusion into a conference finals appearance and there were ‘quotes’ showing how wrong Theo, Jowles and the rest of the simple-common-sense crowd were. Haters, not fans. I was ‘back’ to remind you the 14-10 record was fool’s gold and sooner or later things would revert to normal.

    I have not changed my position – unlike the deluded ‘optimists’ who are panicking right now and beg for Mario Chalmera, Pablo Prigioni or Norris Cole to come to the rescue because the guy they wanted to extend 24 hours ago is out with back spasms!!!!!!

    Fools.

    On Phoenix Loss:
    Pessimists: Lose to Suns? Really? Are you kidding? #loseforlonzo
    Optimists: No problem, the new PYTHAG had us going 2-1 in first 3 games of road trip.

    On Extending Injury-Prone Rose:
    Pessimists: Insanity=doing same thing over and over again, expecting different results (Einstein).
    Optimists: Nothing ventured, nothing gained (reub)

    Randle plays point guard but he doesn’t pass. He’s averaging 3 assists per game (hes averaging 30 minutes a night) and shooting 26% from downtown in the d league.

    Realistically, not even the most pessimistic of the pessimist/realist crowd was expecting Melo to look this awful. No one in the optimist crowd would expect good things out of this season with Melo looking this bad. I mean, in 6 out of the last 12 games he’s shot less than 32% from the field and in 4 of those he’s been less the 28%. I can’t imagine he’s had a stretch like this in his career.

    I was ‘back’ when the ‘optimists’ were projecting their delusion into a conference finals appearance and there were ‘quotes’ showing how wrong Theo, Jowles and the rest of the simple-common-sense crowd were. Haters, not fans. I was ‘back’ to remind you the 14-10 record was fool’s gold and sooner or later things would revert to normal.

    You can probably count on 1 finger and 4 letters (r-e-u-b) how many people here thought the Knicks were going to the conference finals, but sure, straw man as much as you want.

    So a 2 point loss in overtime on a west coast road trip with Melo playing like total crap and Rose out leads to a 14-11 record, and the whole season is just fool’s gold? Got it.

    I do, however, agree that the Noah signing is looking just awful. He was reasonable defensively yesterday but the Knicks are literally playing 4 on 5 on offense when he’s on the court. yes he gets offensive rebounds, but he probably needs to have an ORB% of 15+ for him to be a plus contributor on that end of the floor.

    by the way how did Baker look last night? He shot poorly but was a +8. Did he look ok defensively?

    Really? No one expected Melo to regress down to the 42% FG that he had last season? I did. He’s lost his burst since the knee surgery and the loss of athleticism is only going to get worse. He still has major value if he ever gets it into his head that he’s not the 28 year old scoring god he once was for us in his physical prime. But that means he has to take on an Old Paul Pierce approach as a facilitator on offense rather than the Old Kobe approach of predictably chucking jump shots over two defenders.

    Micheal Rappaport’s sad acting career can be best summed up by the fact that he’s attained a greater cultural relevance as a Knicks fan than ever did as an actor. What a waste.

    So a 2 point loss in overtime on a west coast road trip with Melo playing like total crap and Rose out leads to a 14-11 record, and the whole season is just fool’s gold? Got it.

    The thing is I said it *before the game*. I also said it *before* the season, when the record was 0-0.

    So, you’ll need to come up with a more credible argument.

    Besides, I’m not the one overreacting because of last night’s game: to me it’s totally expected behavior, as was the last game they won. The ones overreacting are the ones begging for Farmar, Chalmers, Prigioni, Coles or some unknown D-Leaguer to come to the rescue when those same fools were asking that Derrick Rose be extended less than 24 hours ago.

    One loss and the ‘optimists’ want 7 trades. Are they *really* optimistic or just fools desperately trying to believe their own lies?

    Realistically, this is already a decent road trip.

    Yes, it is. By any standards, specially for a team like the Knicks.

    So, why are all the optimists so pessimistic? lol…

    Theo, did your parents love you enough as a child?

    They were very pessimistic about my future, but everything turned out ok.

    It’s funny before the game the conversation was about how the Knicks don’t destroy bad teams. I’m sure the non Theo types would have taken the close win. The warriors have 5 or so close wins against awful teams like last night against NO. I wonder if they complain about them or take them

    You’re definitely now one of the optimists.

    I trust the team won’t stray far from my expectations for the season. Very optimistic about the outcome. Surprise factor less than 5% at this point.

    It’s funny before the game the conversation was about how the Knicks don’t destroy bad teams.

    The conversation was about how great Rose is, how wrong the “pessimists” were, how wrong the pythag shit is and the importance of offering Rose an extension asap because there was no way the Knicks could do any better in the free agent market.

    All that was quickly replaced in the optimists’ mind by the absolute need to go and get Mario Chalmers off the NBA waste basket to come replace our MVP point guard.

    Expect further trade talk today. Most of it delusional.

    The Next Chapter?

    In the MSG Bunker, noise is heard from Phil Jackson’s office. It sounds like he’s throwing stuff around the room. He also appears to be saying something like: Noah’s done, Melo’s done, Rose’s done. Just then the phone rings. Mr Jackson, it’s Pat Riley on line 1. He says he’s willing to take Rose for Goran if you include KOQ and a 1st round pick. What should I tell him? The beleagured General Jackson looks at the large portraits of Isiah Thomas and Donnie Walsh on the wall while he ponders his decision.

    lol I’m out. Have fun though. You guys have been waiting for a while to rub the Knicks faces in it.

    Phil will never trade a center like KOQ who can pass and score out of the post for a middling PG like Goran Dragic let alone add a damn pick.

    Considering how poorly most of our guys shot, and how badly we got worked on the glass it’s pretty amazing we had a decent shot to win the game.

    #42

    Lance Thomas’ best year last year gave us a 1.7 WS in 1,313 minutes played.

    Kyle O’Quinn already has already given us 1.4 WS in 372 minutes played.

    Your analogy is null and void.

    @43 Chandler was the real MVP. He helped counter balance the beating we give teams on the glass. OKC did this as well. Another L. I am happy with the fight, and grit the team shows. Would have been nice to win but I guess you can’t win em all

    Considering how poorly most of our guys shot, and how badly we got worked on the glass it’s pretty amazing we had a decent shot to win the game.

    Its not when you consider how bad the Suns are though.

    Its funny, yesterday we’re criticizing the Nuggets for playing Jokic off the bench instead of Nurkic when our team is doing worse by starting Noah instead of O’Quinn.

    You know, Chandler had 23 boards last night, but Kyle/Noah combined for 22.

    You guys didn’t mention Ray Felton in your list of desirable PGs. No cupcake for you.

    Our point guards last night shot 1-15 from the field, scored 5 points, and pulled down 2 rebounds. Jo Noah wasn’t the problem.

    Jo Noah wasn’t the problem.

    Um, yeah, he kind of was. The dude is a fucking waste on offense and ruined our spacing. Why do you think our guards weren’t doing shat? Tyson Chandler would camp out as an extra man in the paint daring Noah to take wide open shots while he block the inside running and passing lanes. And if Noah drove down the lane Suns bigmen would just foul him and watch as he missed free throw after free throw. It was so frustrating to realize this was the play of a 100 million dollar athlete.

    our point guards were 1-15 and pulled down 2 rebounds. All game. Noah, who was a waste on offense, outscored 26 million dollars worth of point guard in 20 minutes. I get it-Noah’s contract is very bad, and he’s not the guy he used to be. But he didn’t make all those Knicks miss shots.

    Raj is right. I hope Noah is still working his way back from being sick. but, 2-7 from the line just is not good.

    All game. Noah, who was a waste on offense, outscored 26 million dollars worth of point guard in 20 minutes.

    I would hope he did. The man was left all alone, wide open from 15 ft out.

    Jo Noah wasn’t the problem.

    He is not the problem.

    He is only a *a big part* of it.

    17M/y-big.

    Conversely, a major part of the reason we were able to run when KOQ entered the game was because he was taking and consistently nailing the open look Tyson Chandler gave him. O’Quinn’s passing and scoring out of the high post was a major boon to our offense that opened everything up.

    I can’t for the life me understand why Hornacek didn’t notice this sooner in the game and sit Noah the fuck down. Hell, Willy should have gotten most of Noah’s minutes for the game.

    This just goes to show you how good Rose has been recently. Is there any doubt that if he was healthy that we wouldn’t have won going away? Not in my mind.

    In O’Quinn’s first stint the Knicks were outscored by 8 points. He did hit 2 shots during our big run in the 4th quarter, which obviously is the reason why we made a comeback.

    My Eye Test says the Knicks crawled back into the game with the bench + KP because they actually played “system basketball.” Maybe it wasn’t full triangle, but players seemed to be moving without the ball, Holiday was cutting to the hoop (granted he missed a couple easy buckets), KP was also cutting, KOQ was hitting, and Baker was facilitating all this pretty well before he made two crucial mistakes and got the hook. Nevertheless, those guys got good shots, diverse shots, b/c the team seemed to be running at least *some* kind of offense instead of just “let’s stand around and wait for Melo to shoot.” These guys also played defense.

    The end of the game devolved back into Melo-ball, (as everyone in the building knew it would) and, per the Post article, he and Rose want more of that now. Is Melo a lost cause or can Hornacek still “teach” him something?

    Rose was a nonfactor. We should have won this game had it not been for some piss poor play from everyone else not named Porzingis, O’Quinn, Lee, Thomas, and Baker.

    In O’Quinn’s first stint the Knicks were outscored by 8 points. He did hit 2 shots during our big run in the 4th quarter, which obviously is the reason why we made a comeback.

    That outscoring was because of the sloppy turnovers and missed shots by several players. But the spacing was far better with him on the court. It was evident from the moment he began to play. Look at this video to see how he exploited the space Suns defenders gave him in the first and third quarter.

    I’m a resident optimist on this board and it was one road loss in OT without our starting PG but even I can admit that Noah is a bad signing long term. He might get better but we better hope there is an amnesty. I know everyone debates whether we should have Rose or not but even the people who hate him have to admit by now that he has been a pretty good upgrade for us. Assuming this back thing is just a minor annoyance and he continues to play like he has, he will not be a bad option esp if we can just extend him for 3 years. But man Noah is gonna hurt our flexibility. And with KQ and Willie H showing they can really contribute plus KP continuing to grow and hopefully playing more center each year, we really don’t need Noah. We could get similar or better production from a no name bruiser center dude off the bench for the minimum.

    So we better hope there is an amnesty. That could honestly be the difference between us continuing to get better with this core and staying where we are. I’m ok moving forward the next 3 years with Melo, Rose, Lee and Jennings. But Noah is going to drag us down.

    I think Chriss is gonna get a fine and at least a 1 game suspension. The dude blatantly threw KP down and stood over him in a taunting way. Love KP’s fire in that moment and the way the team came to his defense. I’m very worried about Rose’s back spasms. He did land kinda awkwardly on a drive and that’s kinda what made it flare up. But me being someone who has back spasms frequently, I wonder if there’s anything structurally wrong. If I lay wrong or sit in a chair wrong, my spasms flare up. And truthfully, once you have that kinda issue, it doesn’t take much to set them off. Mine came from a slight spine shift- courtesy of a car accident 12 years ago. Maybe the doctors should look further into it if for nothing more than due diligence

    We are much better with O’Quinn in the lineup over Noah.

    We’re much better with Melo on the bench.

    We’re much better with a healthy Rose playing.

    KP is a God.

    Truths

    Assuming this back thing is just a minor annoyance and he continues to play like he has, he will not be a bad option esp if we can just extend him for 3 years.

    For how much money? And what if this team doesn’t finish with all that good of a record?

    #62

    Yes! Was so happy to see KP abuse that punk ass bitch in retaliation for his buffoonery.

    And, yeah, back spasms suck so bad. I got one working out in the gym and had to call family to help me move in my house.

    #63

    Hallelujah!

    @65

    Presumably the Wolves. If Dunn was playing better, maaaaaybe they’d consider it, assuming Thibs has a soft spot for Noah.

    We are much better with O’Quinn in the lineup over Noah.

    We’re much better with Melo on the bench.

    So by reub’s logic we’re completely wasting $41M this year, $43M the year after that and $45M the year after that on two players who are only going to further decline, yet Phil Jackson is a great GM and the Knicks are title contenders.

    At this point, I’m willing to give Noah more rope than Rose for 2 reasons:
    1. This season, he’s been more injured than we thought Rose would be.
    2. If he gets back to being even a reasonable facsimile of what he was a few seasons ago, then we have a really nice player up front.

    Keep in mind that, we don’t need the 11ppg 11rpg Noah. It would be nice and it would be a luxury, but we don’t need that Noah. We do need him to knock down the occasional open jumper (something he’s never been really good at) and make FT’s at a better clip. If he’s getting 10 or so rpg, 4 apg, 1.5 bpg and 1 spg, we can deal with him not getting at least 10 ppg- as the starting lineup has plenty of scoring to make up for it. What troubles me is that after looking old and disinterested in Phoenix for most of his time there, Chandler looked rejuvenated and much better at basketball than Noah last night. Tyson Chandler’s a helluva player but we all know that he doesn’t compare to Noah when he’s on his game. I spent most of last night’s game saying to myself, “geez! We REALLY miss Tyson Chandler”. With Noah on board, that’s something a Knicks fan should never say.

    KOQ is the new Lance Thomas.

    this might be the worst post of the year.

    we are the accountant running the NYC marathon for fun, not the skinny african with an exotic name.

    nope never mind it’s this one

    Our win percentage was .58 yesterday. It’s .56 today. Chill.

    That said Noah is and has been completely useless all season and expecting him to develop a jumpshot–don’t hold your breath.

    That dude is/was/has been done.

    Tyson Chandler’s a helluva player but we all know that he doesn’t compare to Noah when he’s on his game.

    Peak Chandler is better than peak Noah. But Noah (up until recently) didn’t have some of the not-so-great seasons that Chandler has had. For instance, Noah was good right away while Chandler struggled to start (partially because the Bulls for some reason thought he was a stretch four, partially because he came right out of high school while Noah played a number of years in college, but whatever the reason, Chandler struggled to start while Noah did not).

    But yes, the main point remains that Chandler at this point in his career should not be dominating Noah at this point in his career.

    I go to bed every night fantasizing about a trade for Ricky Rubio or Nikola Jokic

    Really trading Noah for anything would be nice right now. But I doubt Phil tries to trade the guy he just signed two months ago to a 72m contract. And I doubt anyone would want him.

    The only players on this team that should be untouchable are KP, Willy, and maybe OQ (though he’s fantastic trade bait right now.)

    @69 As in life, there are things that one overpays for and there are things that come at a bargain. We have both. Noah and Melo vs. KP, BJ, O’Quinn, Willy, Holiday, Kuz.

    Rose, Lee and Lance seem to be at their pay value to me if healthy.

    If and when Melo decides to pass more than shoot, or when his shot comes back (which it will at times), he can help us. If he continues to keep shooting when it’s not falling then he should be sat. That’s on Horny.
    Noah can serve a purpose against some of the more physical fives but not in a large role. He is so utterly useless on offense (except for rebounding) that the rest of the team is put at a large disadvantage. On defense he is not a great rim protector either.

    It was kind of weird how Baker didn’t make a shot and yet our team performed very well for the most part with him at the point. Was a +8. He should get more chances going forward, especially if Rose’s injury seems like a short term deal.

    If we are going to talk fantasy trades for Rubio what about Rose and Noah for Rubio and Pekovic.

    Melo got a funny question last night about what it was like to play against a team coached by one of his former teammates, and his reaction seemed to suggest that Melo and Earl Watson didn’t exactly run in the same circles when they played together. 🙂 He wasn’t rude or anything, it was just pretty evident that Melo didn’t really spend a whole lot of time thinking about Earl Watson. He assumed that the question was about Tyson Chandler and he was sort of confused.

    As in life, there are things that one overpays for and there are things that come at a bargain. We have both. Noah and Melo vs. KP, BJ, O’Quinn, Willy, Holiday, Kuz.

    You can add Melo and Rose to the overpay list as well. But that’s besides the point – which is that these two factors don’t neatly cancel one another as you suggest because teams are more likely to start and play overpaid talent more than their hidden gems. Noah playing 21 minutes last night while O’Quinn played 22 (sans overtime) is a case in point.

    @78

    There was actually a very clever jibe in Melo’s response:

    Reporter: How did it feel to play against a team coached by an ex-teammate?

    Melo: Who? Tyson?

    Also, I have to say that people expecting Hornacek to sit Melo down in crunchtime are being unrealistic. No rookie coach working on this team in this media market is crazy enough to sit Melo down with a game on the line in the final minutes of a game. Not even Phil Jackson would dare make such a decision.

    There was actually a very clever jibe in Melo’s response:

    Reporter: How did it feel to play against a team coached by an ex-teammate?

    Melo: Who? Tyson?

    I guess that could be a jibe, but I think he honestly was confused for a sec. Like he really didn’t think of Earl Watson as an ex-teammate, while he did of Tyson, so he assumed the question was about Tyson and that the reporter was just phrasing it oddly. He only played with Watson for half of one season, after all.

    Peak Chandler is better than peak Noah.

    I don’t know, BC. I’d like to agree with you on that because Chandler was great as a Knick. But the year Noah was actually in the running for MVP, and what I consider peak Noah, he put up some incredible numbers for a Camby-type. You know- a center who played at around 235 and couldn’t shoot. I suppose you really can’t go wrong either way. I’ll tell you this much though- last night was the first time I wished we still had Chandler or Lopez. You know what? Now that I think about it, you’re probably right. Chandler’s prime did last longer than Noah’s.

    With Carmelo I don’t think it is simply decline. I think something is wrong.

    First 15 games shooting the ball:
    9 – Great games (TS% above 58%)
    5 – Average games (TS% between 48%-58%)
    1 – Terrible game (TS% below 48%)

    Last ten games:
    3 – Great games
    7 – Terrible games

    Over the first 10 games of the season he was averaging 32 minutes a game. Over the next six which included 2 back to backs he averaged almost 37 minutes a game. That sixth game was the beginning of his period of terrible play.

    It seems like he has worn down. His best game in the last 10 was after we played him only 23 minutes two nights before against Cleveland. I think we need to sit him tomorrow and then have him on a strict 30-32 minute limit.

    It seems like he has worn down. His best game in the last 10 was after we played him only 23 minutes two nights before against Cleveland. I think we need to sit him tomorrow and then have him on a strict 30-32 minute limit.

    I definitely thought they should have rested him last night. I wouldn’t rest him against GSW because we would need him to win most likely. Last night was a game we could have won without a good melo and it would have given us a fresh Melo for GSW. They need to start looking at strategic rest dates for the old guy

    I don’t know, BC. I’d like to agree with you on that because Chandler was great as a Knick. But the year Noah was actually in the running for MVP, and what I consider peak Noah, he put up some incredible numbers for a Camby-type. You know- a center who played at around 235 and couldn’t shoot. I suppose you really can’t go wrong either way. I’ll tell you this much though- last night was the first time I wished we still had Chandler or Lopez. You know what? Now that I think about it, you’re probably right. Chandler’s prime did last longer than Noah’s.

    Don’t get me wrong, they were both wonderful players in their primes. Just great, great players. So while I would pick peak Chandler over peak Noah, it’s not like comparing, say, peak Jordan vs. peak Isaiah Rider. It’s extremely close either way. Peak Noah was amazing. If someone picked peak Noah over peak Chandler, I would totally understand it. I was more replying to the “Tyson Chandler’s a helluva player but we all know that he doesn’t compare to Noah when he’s on his game” aspect.

    It seems like he has worn down.

    Don’t underestimate the impact of our old friend “regression to the mean.”

    After 15 games, Melo had a .568 TS%. His career TS% in 33,000+ minutes is .545. He’s in his age 32 season, so he is in his decline phase. He’s coming off back-to-back years with a TS% around .530. His overall stat line for the year looks a lot like his overall stat line from the previous two years, except a little worse because he’s not rebounding as much or getting as many assists.

    Don’t underestimate the impact of our old friend “regression to the mean.”

    That’s well and good. You should still rest him.

    KP is the one who should be rested, he’s being played at serious minutes to make this team competitive night in and night out.

    Some of Melo is certainly a regression, but the getting stuffed badly at the rim, airballs and such looks more like fatigue issues. What I hope is that they are not old man issues.

    Getting fatigued less than a third of the way to go isn’t good from your supposed leader.

    It’s just hard for me to get on board with trying to keep this team together. Melo and Noah are almost definitely going to be even worse next year, one or both Jennings/Holiday will be gone, and if we bring everyone back there won’t really be a lot of minutes for whoever we draft. I keep asking, how many games do we have to win for doing so to be justified? Given that we’ll probably be worse next year, how could you justify it for anything short of 50?

    Getting fatigued less than a third of the way to go isn’t good from your supposed leader.

    YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT RESTING A 21 YEAR OLD!!!!! lol Please.

    @95

    Actually, I am talking about not resting Melo.

    But since you mentioned KP, you should now he has never approached the sheer amount of minutes he’s on pace to complete. That needs to be accounted for in steadying his development.

    I don’t believe Noah is fully healthy. And I don’t think, unless you are a connoisseur of elegant offense, that he should be that disappointing this year once he gets his legs fully under him. Not my ideal signing but he’s a guy who I enjoy watching at least.

    Melo has never been athletic but I don’t think he has ever looked less athletic than he did getting stuffed by Devin Booker.

    While I agree that Noah is likely not fully healthy, he’s been pretty agonizing to watch this year, particularly at the free throw line. The guy is so in his own head, you can tell from just looking at his face on the broadcast.

    This will never happen, but I had the thought that maybe he should be shooting the techs. Like give him every opportunity in the world to get that confidence back, bc if he’s a 30% FT shooter it has a trickle down effect on the rest of his offense as he becomes less and less willing to go up for shots at the rim.

    @3..i’m with you all the way on this one frank:

    Hornacek also has to figure out something to get KP more rest. He is our everything right now but playing what seems like near 40 minutes every game at his effort level is not sustainable.

    even though i’d like to win every game, and kp’s only 21 – he’s also 7’3″ with the intensity of his game rising continually…yeah he’s our everything – but, let’s at least try to keep him healthy (sure, rest is no guarantee – but, right now he’s up to averaging 35 minutes a game – however, those are 35 minutes of being the focal point on both offense and defense)…

    i don’t think it’s panicking to expect phil to shore up are iffy point guard situation…what are the chances of someone “off” the street coming in to help – eh, maybe chalmers???

    chances of phil making a good trade that doesn’t cost us a first rounder – eh, maybe?

    either way – this is what phil’s getting paid to do (and, rightfully graded on)…

    to me he’s got until january 6 (january 5, 2017 – 10-day contracts may now be signed, which leaves us 10 more games of wondering who’ll really be able to play that position – and, help us win) to get this point guard situation fixed…otherwise – big fail from phil…

    Tomorrow is such a good opportunity to rest guys. We have no chance against GS. Benching Melo, Zing, and Rose will do more for our long-term success than playing them to increase our chances of beating the Warriors from 5% to 10%.

    Plumlee, Ndour, and Sasha should all get 10+ minutes. Baker and Kuz should get 20+.

    @8 –

    Last night’s thread and subsequent *analysis* shows a lot of ‘optimists’ downright panicking over a simple loss to the Suns.

    I didn’t see “Panic” and I’m one of the optimists.
    Yesterday was a bad loss but Rose, Noah, Melo and BJ all stunk. Without 2 of the 3 big scorers (Melo, Rose and KP) doing the expected job, we’ll lose.
    Winning on the road, even against bad teams, is not easy. It’s just a loss. That’s it.

    Melo has never been athletic but I don’t think he has ever looked less athletic than he did getting stuffed by Devin Booker.

    https://instagram.com/p/BN–1ctjD8q/

    I actually thought that was a horrible no call. Booker flew right into Melo with a hockey style body block. Watch the replay, he flew from one side of the paint to the other. Just because you have your hands up doesn’t mean it’s clean

    However if melo went up stronger he would have gotten the call

    Tomorrow is such a good opportunity to rest guys. We have no chance against GS. Benching Melo, Zing, and Rose will do more for our long-term success than playing them to increase our chances of beating the Warriors from 5% to 10%.

    Plumlee, Ndour, and Sasha should all get 10+ minutes. Baker and Kuz should get 20+.

    110% with you on this one oakman…unfortunately (?) it’s a nationally televised game – so, i expect melo and kp will log another 38 to 40 minutes…

    i don’t think we’ll see rose back until at least next tuesday against indiana, we have three games at home, if they’re smart maybe even wait until thursday’s game against orlando…

    I’m in Camp Optimist, and while I hold out hold out hope that Noah will eventually get it going, I am concerned. Right now, I agree that contract doesn’t look good. My unfounded counters/silver linings:
    A. I don’t believe it’s ultimately untradeable, especially if/when he finally his his stride.
    B. Who’s to say Noah stays here all 4 years, particularly if Rose is not resigned/extended?
    C. (This may be a stretch) We fans typically equate contract #s strictly to on-court performance. Now, I don’t know if serving as teammate mentor to our younger big men is worth even half of 18mil a year, but consider that Porzingis had said that having Melo (whom many here believe is overpaid) as teammate has helped him greatly, I would argue that Noah’s contact isn’t purely tied to court performance.

    Something to consider: let’s say KOQ keeps up his improved play into the end of the season, and WillyBilly shows hard evidence of making the 2nd year jump; both sustain their improved play through January 2018. And Noah – while not at 2014 playing level – still shows he can help a team/isn’t washed up… wouldn’t that be a good problem to have?

    Noah is playing bench player minutes for a starter’s salary. And they’re not even really amazing minutes. It would be one thing if he was playing lights out for 22 MPG. Going out there and looking slow and old for 22 MPG is a piss-poor use of $18M of cap space.

    Years one and two were supposed to be the “good” years of this contract. The fact that he’s this much of a non-factor right out of the gate does not bode well for the remainder of the contract. Another thing that does not bode well is that Noah’s ineffectual play has not been a secret. That contract is widely seen as a terrible mistake.

    I actually thought that was a horrible no call.

    you’re right that was a blatant foul. the verticality rule sometimes snowballs into a get out of jail free pass once a player assumes the position. draymond could probably get away with all these nut shots if he could just invent a way to do it while appearing vertical (that didn’t sound right). on the other hand, melo getting block-fouled by a 9 year old or even going 3 for 15 wasn’t his main problem. he is just not showing up on defense, even in big spots. i don’t mean, he’s not a good defender. i mean he’s not showing up at all on way too many possessions.

    one of the worst examples last night was the play after his one overtime make with ~35-40 seconds left and knicks up by 1. bledsoe/chandler went pnr and bledsoe splits the double team against Lee/KOQ starting like 30 feet out. melo watched the entire play unfold (guarding tucker, who was not even forcing a hedge, he was sort of setting a screen for booker on the wing but mostly doing nothing in a non-threatening position). melo was the only other player within a mile and just stood there and watched bledose drive for the layup. in fact, KOQ made enough of an effort to recover from behind that bledsoe finished that play with his left on melo’s side of the hoop (!)… and still zero contest from melo. this is a 1 point game with 35 seconds left in OT in which you’ve been o for everything. you cannot just stand there and watch that play. that is not even close to an anomaly for melo this year.

    There is a potential silver lining for The Optimists and the team’s performance this season even if Rose’s injury is very serious. A wounded Rose would be more valuable to Riley than a healthy one. Rose not playing on the Heat would enhance the prospects of Riley landing a 1-4 pick versus playing Dragic. Riley would also have the extra cap this summer in addition to the top 4 pick to continue to rebuild into a younger team in the post-Bosh era. I think a trade like Dragic/McBob for Injured Rose/Kuz/WH might be attractive to Riley…Top 4 pick/Whiteside/Johnson/Winslow/Reed plus more cap

    Nah we shouldn’t rest anybody against G.S. They’re resting today, aren’t they?

    We can beat Golden State. If we lose it’ll make us better anyway. Play everybody who is healthy.

    We’re not trading Rose this year. Just not gonna happen.

    Only guys I could see getting dealt are OQ, Lance, and maaaybe Noah if someone is dumb enough to take his deal.

    “…we are the accountant running the NYC marathon for fun, not the skinny african with an exotic name. ” – Good one, even though I am an accountant and that sounds somewhat like a diss

    Theo the anti Reub

    Thibs looking for a big:

    “The Minnesota Timberwolves are “looking to trade for a frontcourt player,” according to Brian Windhorst.

    The Wolves added Cole Aldrich and Jordan Hill in the offseason but both have played relatively limited minutes. Minnesota also has Nemanja Bjelica and Adreian Payne on their depth chart at the big positions.

    Tom Thibodeau has been committed to playing Karl-Anthony Towns in two-big lineups.

    The Wolves have a 6-14 record entering their game on Tuesday against the Bulls.”

    http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/244273/Wolves-Interested-In-Trading-For-Frontcourt-Player

    @ 112 ” We can beat Golden State” – sure. Put the crack pipe down before you hurt yourself or somebody else

    @117 They’ve already lost to the Lakers and the Grizzlies badly, 2 teams that we’ve already beaten.

    I’m just saying that it’s possible. And that competing against them only makes us better.

    Thibs might bite on Rose for Rubio plus cap filler. Should the Knicks, though?

    Noah’s going nowhere soon. He’s supposed to be a very proud guy; I wonder if he continues to struggle with health and his game, if he might consider retirement in a year or two? It looks like his bad free throw shooting is getting to him.

    Lots of ifs, I know.

    They can Beat em. Idk how that’s some crazy statement. It’s not likely but can happen

    er is right, but if we don’t have actual numbers to show our confidence in this chance, there’s no point in making assertions

    the Knicks have somewhere between a 90% and 10% chance of winning that game, +/- 10%

    The bottom line is that we can do well with a less than optimum Noah because we have O’Quinn, KP and Plumlee who can play the position.

    But If Melo keeps forcing shots when he’s missing most of them and Horny won’t sit him when he does then that is difficult to overcome. His defense is just pitiful. I cringed when Horny took Oak out of the game and replaced him with Melo near the end last night.

    Oh, and Baker’s defense looked pretty good out there. Plus he moved well too and the team was steady. Plus 8. He definitely can shoot but he can’t break down a defense like a Rose or a Jennings can with his dribble.

    I think you mean we can compensate for Noah’s less than optimal play because we have guys in OQ and Willy who are outpreforming their contracts.

    Noah, however, has been objectively terrible. Much worse than Melo relative to his contract, even though he’s making less money.

    Noah is the far bigger problem here. He’s a complete waste of $18M of cap space and will be for the next four years.

    In fact, I would argue the fact that we have other guys who can fill his role at cheaper salaries makes his contract look increasingly worse as compared to Melo’s, as at least Melo is filling a defined role that no one else does on the team for his salary. Noah is just wasted space.

    the Knicks have somewhere between a 90% and 10% chance of winning that game, +/- 10%

    what’s the count – the count is zero

    hopefully we’re down 50 in the first half and horny sits the starters for the second half…

    as much as i abhor the knicks losing – it’s a long season…why should only the good teams rest their players…

    the knicks are a good team with a lot of “ifs” factored in – number one of those “ifs” being if players stay healthy – particularly rose, melo and especially kp…

    Right. Idk why he wasn’t in over holiday or baker in the fourth last night. Horny still does some questionable things

    Baker was playing PG. We were also getting mauled on the boards and Lee is a shit rebounder-that’s the only thing I can think of

    New CBA agreement! No word on amnesty yet but there wasn’t expected to be one.

    I think if we come out and play really inspired basketball tomorrow night we can hold the Warriors to 125 points.

    Yeah, amnesty seems unlikely. Also sounds like rookie wage scale will go up, which will devalue draft picks a bit.

    Curious to get the full picture and a sense of how it may affect our team building in the near term.

    Did anybody see the report that Thibs is looking to add a front court player?

    I would love to ship Thibs Noah for Rubio and our good friend country Cole Aldrich

    Or picks! Unfortunately if we traded w Minne we’d probably have to ship OQ because Noah is that radioactive. Unless Thibs is actually dumb, which he could be, at least as a general manager.

    re: Rose Assuming it is a muscular problem, I am not surprised by what happened last night. Muscular injuries are at their worst 2 days after the first game level function. Think of doing a strenuous activity for the first time in a while. Eccentric muscle overload causes soreness that starts about 17 hours later and peaks at 48 hours before improving. Assuming he is getting the proper treatment and the problem is what I think it is, the negative refractery period should shorten and not be as severe with each game he now plays.

    Holy crap Larry Nance Jr. just threw down one of the most awesome dunks I’ve ever seen on Brook Lopez. Just mind boggling.

    After everybody loses tonight we will still be in 3rd place in the conference. Suck it, Theo.

    Re; Thibs, we might be able to swap 1st round picks with him if we offer him one of our bigs not named Porzingis. We don’t know how bad of a GM Thibs is yet. He might panic and offer us a sweet deal for Joakim Noah or Kyle O’Quinn.

    I think it’s been reported that Thibs is looking for a big familiar with his system and coaching style, which pretty much means it’s Taj Gibson or Jo Noah that he’s looking for. This is a golden opportunity to trade Noah in exchange for a Pekovic salary dump plus what-have-you. It’s not going to happen though, because the optics of cutting bait so early into Noah’s contract are just atrocious.

    Not if it’s some crazy deal that nets us a draft pick, Kris Dunn, or Zach LaVine. You have to make that trade and say “we got younger and improved our outlook by moving a strength for a weakness” or something. One thing is that the Wolves have $12M in cap space so we could make a lopsided deal. I would love to get Zach LaVine, but I doubt that happens.

    Sources: Under new CBA, the league will shorten preseason and start the regular season a week sooner. Another way to space out games.— Adrian Wojnarowski (@WojVerticalNBA) December 15, 2016

    Among the highlights of new CBA: huge raises for rookie scale, mid-level, bi-annual and 10-year vet deals.— David Aldridge (@daldridgetnt) December 15, 2016

    I wouldn’t characterize the raises in rookie scale salaries and such as huge. Reportedly they are increased about 50%. The salary cap has increased at least that much over the life of this agreement, so basically those salaries are just catching up.

    Not if it’s some crazy deal that nets us a draft pick, Kris Dunn, or Zach LaVine. You have to make that trade and say “we got younger and improved our outlook by moving a strength for a weakness” or something. One thing is that the Wolves have $12M in cap space so we could make a lopsided deal. I would love to get Zach LaVine, but I doubt that happens.

    No way they trade us Zach Lavine. I would like Rubio, he is a good defender and too constrained in the half-court offense of Thibs, I think he would improve under Horny. However, we would have a weird situation with the pecking order with the PGs (until Rose’s next injury).

    Weird stat.

    Melo and KD have only played each other 13 times in the NBA.

    Mind you, They were in the same division for 4 years. That’s crazy. We might have missed out on some shootouts

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