Knicks Morning News (2016.12.05)

  • [ESPN] Monday’s Knicks News: Brandon Jennings plays big in win over Kings
    (Monday, December 05, 2016 5:49:41 AM)

    Monday’s Knicks News: Brandon Jennings plays big in win over Kings

  • [NYPost] Jeff Hornacek predicted Brandon Jennings’ huge game
    (Sunday, December 04, 2016 9:49:22 PM)

    Jeff Hornacek, psychic. Before Sunday night’s game, Hornacek spoke about the Knicks’ need to finish and step on opponents’ throats which sort of became a theme when the Knicks let a 21-point lead get whittled to one before winning. But earlier in the day, he told his wife he believed Brandon Jennings would have a…

  • [NYPost] Carmelo Anthony leads Knicks by example with big-time shots
    (Sunday, December 04, 2016 9:15:25 PM)

    There is a toughness flowing from Carmelo Anthony and the Knicks. And that is beginning to make a difference. Sure, the Knicks still have a way of falling asleep in games and Sunday night at the Garden they watched a 21-point lead shrink to one, but while DeMarcus Cousins was not able to hit two…

  • [NYPost] Knicks flirt with monumental collapse in rout turned exhale
    (Sunday, December 04, 2016 5:14:50 PM)

    This was a laugher. The Knicks, who already withstood an 11-0 Sacramento run, were cruising in the third quarter, up 19 points. Everybody was contributing and the Knicks were home where recently they may not have been invincible, but pretty darn good. Yup, laugher. But the joke was nearly on them. The Kings, in the…

  • [NY Newsday] Carmelo Anthony, Knicks hold off Kings
    (Monday, December 05, 2016 12:28:38 AM)

    Not every game has to be a nail-biter.

  • [NY Newsday] Arron Afflalo sees Knicks pushing pace with Jeff Hornacek
    (Sunday, December 04, 2016 9:45:47 PM)

    Is the triangle offense that integral to the Knicks’ current offensive philosophy?

  • [NYDN] Knicks hold on against Kings, 106-98, for third straight victory
    (Sunday, December 04, 2016 8:31:58 PM)

    The only things stopping DeMarcus Cousins on this night were tired legs and poor judgment. And Boogie certainly had both.

  • [NYDN] Joakim Noah returns to Knicks lineup to battle DeMarcus Cousins
    (Sunday, December 04, 2016 8:02:22 PM)

    Joakim Noah was back in the starting lineup on Sunday after missing consecutive victories over the Minnesota Timberwolves.

  • [NYDN] Jeff Hornacek puts own spin on shaping Knicks offense
    (Sunday, December 04, 2016 7:23:48 PM)

    The “triangle” is one of those NBA trigger words that causes all sorts of reactions.

  • [NYTimes] Knicks 106, Kings 98: Knicks Squander Another Early Lead, but Prevail Over Kings
    (Monday, December 05, 2016 5:20:07 AM)

    A 106-98 win was the Knicks’ eighth in their last 11 games.

  • [NYTimes] Russell Westbrook’s Remarkable Streak Reaches Five
    (Monday, December 05, 2016 4:38:07 AM)

    Westbrook recorded his fifth straight triple-double, the most since Michael Jordan had seven in a row in 1989.

  • [SNY Knicks] Porzingis, Rose lead balanced attack as Knicks beat Kings
    (Sunday, December 04, 2016 10:24:27 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis had a double-double and Derrick Rose recorded 20 points, six assists and five rebounds as the New York Knicks beat the Sacramento Kings 106-98 on Sunday at Madison Square Garden.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks, with O’Quinn contributing, will try to end skid vs. Kings
    (Sunday, December 04, 2016 3:23:35 PM)

    The Knicks will try to end a four-game losing streak to Sacramento when they host the Kings Sunday night at the Garden.

  • [SNY Knicks] TheKnicksBlog Podcast: Righting the Ship
    (Sunday, December 04, 2016 1:20:29 PM)

    Anthony Donahue and Moke Hamilton are back on TheKnicksBlog Podcast where the guys discuss the team’s recent string of success, including Wednesday night’s win over Minnesota.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks need to find a place for O’Quinn when Noah returns
    (Sunday, December 04, 2016 11:11:10 AM)

    The Knicks are 4-0 without Joakim Noah thanks in part to Kyle O’Quinn, who has certainly held his own. Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek will have to find a place for O’Quinn when Noah returns.

  • 302 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2016.12.05)”

    I was at a friend’s birthday dinner last night so missed the game (Morimoto down at 10th ave and 16th street – very good food), but sounds like it was a good one!

    The East is in such disarray right now that I could honestly see, like, 44 wins getting to the 6th seed this year (this reminds me of those grinding mid-1990s Eastern Conferences, where everyone beat everyone else up, so the win totals were pretty much held down outside of the Bulls and occasionally one or two other teams), and I’d certainly take that, since I believe I picked this team to win 44 games (and if they exceed that, then that would obviously be quite swell, as well). I always like watching the Knicks actually compete for a playoff spot!

    And this nice stretch of winnable games is a huge help when the other East teams are floundering.

    I didn’t get to comment at all last night #flu, but I did watch. Collapse aside, the team played really well. Boogie did what he was supposed to do, so I’m not mad we gave up a big game to him. I will say this, though: Our PG’s should be lifting Noah up right now. He seems to have lost all confidence on offense. I remember one play in the 3rd, I believe, he was under the basket with a high percentage shot opportunity, and he passed it. I don’t know if his ankles are worse than we know, if his shoulder is dead, or whatever the case may be. But that worries me. Hopefully if Rose & Jennings can set him up with great looks he will get some confidence back.

    Watching some of these Western teams that we don’t get to see that much, it really strikes me at how many of these teams just don’t seem to know what they’re doing with their rosters at all. This Kings team just looks like a collection of random ass players. There doesn’t seem to be a direction or a focus, just a star player surrounded by random dudes. “Sure, let’s add…hmmm…how about Matt Barnes? Why not Arron Afflalo?”

    Sacramento is the worst-case scenario for a small market team: they have a legit star who could be an amazing player, but is incapable of making others better around him (in fact, he might make his teammates worse with his attitude) with a number of botched high draft picks around him… they tried to fix that by picking up reclamation projects (all bound to fail given how badly managed the team is) and kinda decent veterans like Koufos Afflalo or Collison who are never going to be impactful outside of a great system which would put them into the perfect situation to have some impact.

    it’s a great case study about the impacts of win-now mentality and the pressure small market teams feel to keep their stars in place and try to get playoff revenue.

    Yeah, it’s fair to say that the small markets are working with, like, an awesome ticking time bomb when they actually get a young star player. Awesome because it’s a great young player, but still a time bomb because it’s just sitting there, waiting to explode on them in a few years. I do feel bad for teams that don’t think that they can hold on to their star players. But….then I am happy because I want the Knicks to get those star players. 🙂 Not Boogie, per se, but just star players in general.

    A lot of thoughts from over the weekend.

    1) here’s a shout-out to…. Sasha Vujacic. He’s taken a ton of heat here and everywhere, and the dude has just been pretty darn good for a guy on a vet’s minimum contract who basically is a “break glass in emergency” guy. His numbers aren’t great, but the energy level he brings on both ends of the court is palpable (at least to me!). When he’s in the game, the Knicks play at a pace of ~105, which is by far the highest on the team of guys who have actually played more than just a couple minutes. He passes the ball (4th on the team in both assist% and assist ratio), has been rebounding amazingly well – by far the best rebounding guard on the team, and 12th best rebounding guard (by TRB%) in the league. He also has the highest net rating on the entire freaking team at +4.7 (other than Plumlee, who’s barely played).

    The Knicks are very blessed to be in a big market because they are always in the running for whomever they may want. But when you’re a small market team like Sacramento, I think you should take the Jimmy Johnson/Jason Garrett approach and start up front. The “up front” equivalent in basketball would be the FO/HC/Center combo. You need someone to execute the plan, and they should grab a great paint player to be an extension of a strong FO/HC combo. Actually that plan is great anywhere, but moreso in a small market. Big market teams can always garner consideration from the Durants and LeBrons of the world. Suppose Sacramento, already armed with Boogie, was able to hire..say..Jerry West and Budenholzer, Brad Stevens, or Billy Donovan instead of what they have now. Completely different narrative. They haven’t made great hires and are subsequently wasting a great young player’s potential. So..you start “up front” with the stability and know how- even if you have to overpay.

    It’s the 20-game mark. You can all unzip your mouths, come out of hibernation and tell everyone what you think this team is.

    I had them being 9-11 not 11-9 after 20 games. They’re 2 games ahead of the 43 game mark I set for them. This is a good sign. I don’t think the team is where they need to be and can be. The Knicks are what I expected them to be and that’s alright. They are not winning a championship but they should make the playoffs. Hopefully they don’t face the Cavs in the 1st round. They have a chance to make some noise. Health, depth, consistency and chemistry are the ingredients to take the team to the next level. We’re getting there.

    Noah is disappointing. He’s suddenly developed the yips from the line. That’s not a good sign. His play, up until the last few minutes that he played, was fair. But when the opposition sees a guy go 0-4 from the line, they’re going to foul him. He also hasn’t played a lot of games. So far he’s a disappointment.

    KP is the unicorn. Rare. Amazing. Astounding. Precious.

    Melo has had some great games and some bad games. We should never have to witness 5-20 games. He still plays hero ball and goes ISO too often. But there’s evidence that he’s has taking a back seat and letting the game come to him. He hasn’t lost much. He’s still a one-on-one force.

    Lee has been so-so. He started slow but has picked it up recently – up until he turned that ankle. I like his perimeter defense. I’m not sure about the value of his contract. He seems overpaid but it’s not my money.

    Rose is just what I expected him to be. He penetrates and scores even though he’s lost a half a step. He has regained what injuries stole from him. PGs are tough to integrate into a system. His contributions will grow. I cannot see what folks are whining about. My eyeballs show me a player that breaks down the defense. He needs to be more under control. He needs more assists. Otherwise, I’m very happy and want him…

    The bench is becoming a strength. O’Quinn, Willy, Kuz, BJ and Holiday are solid rotation players. Which of them do you want to get rid of? I thought so.

    O’Quinn is young (24) and plays the game with ferocity. He’s becoming an enforcer reminicent of Oakley and Mason. He has some nice offensive moves and a nice baby jumper. We need him to continue to pound the boards. Winning the rebound battle should be his main objective.

    Willy Hernangomez was a steal. Where would he have gone in this year’s draft? His post-up moves are dazzling and he rebounds. His pick and roll defense must continue to improve but I’m very excited to have him on this roster for the next few years.

    Kuzminskis is another steal. Credit to out Euro scouts and to Phil for finding this guy. He plays hard, has a terrific outside shot and drives to the hoop with a vengence. I expect him to continue to push Lance Thomas down the depth chart.

    Justin Holiday was a throw in for the Rose trade. He provides perimeter defense and has found his shot. Holiday has me saying “Grant who?” What a throw-in! And I love his rebounding!

    What can I say about Brandon Jennings. He’s unselfish to a fault, hard nosed and aggessive. Pairing him in the back court with Rose is brilliant. Jennings is a better distributer, Rose the better scorer.

    I’m enjoying the season. I haven’t been able to say that since the 54-win season. I’m being entertained and the needle is pointing upwards. This team is young at the core but has good veteran leadership. While I wish that we would have a strong pick in the upcoming draft, they may end up playing too good. At the very least, I’m looking forward to some late April basketball!

    I agree 100% totes, but Sacramento kinda tried the management part having Chris Mullin as an advisor, now with Divac… but they apparently seem to have done a terrible job.

    the problem is that legit good coaches or gms will have much better offers than a terrible roster with little flexibility, a win-now owner in one of the smallest markets, needing to win to justify keeping the team in the city in the first place… it’s a shitty situation and honestly, probably the most unsolvable shitty situation in the nba right now.

    I think Cousins is surely gone when his contract expires and it will be a painful and ugly couple of years rebuilding for them.

    The third tier of players on the team are also intruguing. Sasha has been solid. He seems to bring order when there’s chaos and can create some chaos for the opponent. N’Doir has potential bit needs more playing time. Plumlee is a stash project that will contibute when on the

    2) Derrick Rose. At risk of starting another Derrick Rose flame war here, these are my thoughts:

    As one of the captains of Team Optimism, I always thought we should reserve our judgment until we see what his production was. And even just a few days ago, I was not high on him. But I spent some time looking at his recent stats and I’ve come away more optimistic.

    We should bear in mind that he basically had zero preseason, so I think it is reasonable to discount the first part of the season as he played his way back into shape and understood the offense. But as the year has gone on, he has undeniably been pretty darn ok.

    last 15 games per-36: 19.4 points, 5.7 assists, 4.6 rebounds, TS 53.2, USG 25.3, TOV% 11.6

    limited to the last 10 games per-36: 20.9 points, 5.3 assists, 4.7 rebounds, TS 54.2, USG 25.7, TOV% 8.1

    Do we believe that he can keep this up?

    Well, why is his TS improving? His shooting is regressing as one might expect – not finishing quite as well at the rim (down to 56% in restricted area) while his midrange game has come back (now shooting about 40% from midrange for the season, in line with his career). But he’s getting to the line a lot more. His FTA/FGA for the first 10 games of the year was only 17%. But in the last 10 games, it’s 32%. That’s a lot of free throws — 5.4 FTA/36, which is in sniffing range of his career high numbers, and in line with guys like Steph Curry, Chris Paul, and Kemba Walker. Is that sustainable? I don’t know. But maybe.

    He hasn’t been very good defensively, but he hasn’t been obviously awful on that end of the floor. And I’ve gone on record 40x that I don’t think that his history off ACL tear and meniscus injuries definitely mean that he’ll get injured again. These are common basketball injuries, and there are many many cases of players recovering from those and being really good again, regardless of what the non-medical “realists” may think.

    now – Berman’s article last week about “the Knicks haven’t ruled out extending Rose” was obviously clickbait, but it is something worth thinking about IMHO.

    3 additional years at $25MM per is not out of the question, and there are another 9 games before that decision needs to be made on 12/22, at which point 35% of the season will already have passed.

    his #s from the last 10 games — basically 20/5/5 on a usage of 25 and TS of 54 are not numbers that come along every day. In fact, in the last 5 seasons, the only players that have reached those thresholds are:

    Steph Curry
    Chris Paul
    James Harden
    Damian Lillard
    Kyle Lowry
    Kobe Bryant
    Eric Bledsoe
    Russell Westbrook
    Manu Ginobili

    Now granted, Rose would be the worst of the players (age excluded) except maybe Bledsoe. But what do you think those players would get on the open market at age 28? I’ll tell you what: 4 years, $152MM if signed away from their home team, and 5 years, $207MM if re-signing.

    We have been in a market in which Allen Crabbe (he of the 12 points, 3.5 rebounds per game) is making $19MM/year.

    In a vacuum, I would rather have Jrue Holiday than Derrick Rose for the next 3 years, but if Rose were willing to sign for 3 years/$75MM extension, would I rather have that than Jrue Holiday at 4/152 (or even charitably 4/120)? The same Jrue Holiday who has on average missed 20 games/season because of, yes, knee injuries?

    I don’t know. I don’t love the idea of extending Rose, but what would the alternatives be? We can still try and draft a PG in one of the next few drafts. If Rose plays well, he would be tradeable. If he plays poorly, well obviously that sucks, but he would expire at the same time as Courtney Lee and Noah at least.

    There are definitely trades, etc. that are possible, but I don’t know that I see a difference making PG shaking loose in trade without us giving up a lot of assets.

    To be clear – under ZERO circumstances would I max out Derrick Rose after the season.

    I’m just talking about the extension that Berman wrote about. 3 years starting at $25MM.

    OK – FLAME ON

    You only extend Rose if you think that this current team is as good as you’re going to get for the next three years. It might be. If you think that’s the case, then sure, lock the whole team in (except Jennings, of course, as if you extend Rose, you lose Jennings, and who knows what Holliday gets on the open market – the Knicks are limited by the MLE. That should be enough to keep him, but I have no idea). “We might not be able to get anyone better than Rose on the free agent market” only matters if you’re looking at this current team as your ideal.

    My major point here is that extending Rose would be a proactive move, unlike the reactionary moves that have plagued this franchise forever. It might the wrong move also, but it would be proactive. A lot of people looked sideways at the Warriors for signing Curry to a long term contract because of his ankles, or Danny Ainge for signing Avery Bradley to what was (at the time) a well-above market deal. Those seemed to have worked out.

    This team is not ideal, but it’s freaking fun to watch. And “ideal” is all relative. Let’s say we make the playoffs as a 6 or 7 seed, with Carmelo, Noah, and Lee all under contract for the next several years. The only way to make what many here would term the “ideal” team would entail really tearing it down. Does anyone think that is actually happening?

    by the way – we are now pretty much at the point where we can do a post-mortem on the Carmelo trade from both sides. It clearly hasn’t worked out as expected for the Knicks, but all those who said they’d trade places with Denver in a heartbeat might want to rethink that.

    Denver is now 7-13, filled to the brim with players that are pretty good but that don’t have enough trade value to make a difference. They’re a team without a “superstar”, and as such, they’ve been decidedly mediocre or worse. Would anyone trade where they are now with where the Knicks are? Maybe some would, maybe some wouldn’t. But it’s not an obvious answer either way.

    Basically, both sides of that argument are/were right. Carmelo was not the transformative superstar that would turn the Knicks into instant contenders. But also, Denver’s potpourri of assets and young players never panned out, because by nature, those are high variance assets that sometimes/often do not work out.

    I never thought it was a question of “Would you rather be Denver?”, as clearly, if Denver had their druthers, they would have kept Melo. It was just, “Was it a good trade for the Knicks?” And it wasn’t. What was impressive about Denver was just that they did so well for being in such a bad situation. They were forced to trade a guy that they didn’t want to trade (and in fact, had built their then current team around). And remember, the guy who did the deal got the hell out of Denver quickly as the owner’s incompetent son was put in charge of the operation (the NBA has way too many incompetent sons being put in charge of operations) and Ujiri was far too smart to want to deal with that shitty situation, so who knows what Denver looks like today if the guy behind the Melo deal stuck around. Ujiri’s pretty ruthless about tearing teams down, so I doubt you’d have a situation where all those guys would be with the team this long. How in the world is Wilson Chandler still on that team?!

    Frank, how many games do you think the Knicks have to win to justify keeping this team together? 41? 45? 50? Keep in mind that most teams with older cores view 45ish win seasons as a reason to rebuild (which doesn’t have to entail tanking, just going in a different direction). At the very least I hope the Knicks let Rose hit the market, because bidding against themselves after 20 to 35 games for a guy playing like prime Raymond Felton makes no sense. I think his list of suitors will be a lot smaller than he thinks. I mean, what teams a) have the space and b) have the need/desire? Maybe the Kings, but that’s pretty telling on its own.

    I dunno, Dwyane Wade just got all the money ever printed to sign for his Age 34-36 seasons, so I’m sure Rose will get paid.

    After 20 games we’ve learned Derrick Rose might be decent if you only count the last 10 games

    I dunno, Dwyane Wade just got all the money ever printed to sign for his Age 34-36 seasons, so I’m sure Rose will get paid.

    I mean, that’s the point. Everyone is getting paid. To get a better value than 3/75 won’t be that easy.

    I mean, what could we postulate that would be reasonable?

    Darren Collison maybe will get a Jeremy Lin-type contract (what was that, 3/36?). That might be ok, and maybe you could re-sign Jennings to a similar deal as Collison, so you get Collison+Jennings for the price of one Rose? Maybe that’s a better way to go. Collison will be 30 by the start of next season, but on a 3 year deal it wouldn’t be that bad.

    Maybe if Utah disappoints, George Hill will shake loose? But would he come here? He’ll probably make more than the cap $ we have, but maybe not. And he’ll already be 31.

    I dunno. I’m not saying extending Rose would be the right thing to do, just that it should be a real consideration.

    I got ya, Frank, I honestly was not trying to be snarky with you when I said if you think this is the best we’re going to get for the next three years, extending Rose might be the way to go. Because I do agree that they’re not going to do a tear down, so if they’re stuck with these guys for the next three years, they do need to get someone to start at the point for the next three years and it sure isn’t going to be a rookie, and of the veteran options, Rose might be as good as it gets under the very specific guidelines that the team is working under.

    The issue, of course, is that it is unlikely that Rose would take a three-year deal for the very reasons we’re discussing. Plus there’s the whole “Well, if we signed these guys for three more years, we might as well give Melo an extension, too, since his deal runs out before theirs” and, well, you see how this stuff goes. But, again, that’s the road they’re already on, so it might still be the best thing to do.

    I mean Solomon Hill got 4/48 for pulling a Jerome James an having a nice playoff series. If you functionally run PG and get to the cup like Rose has demonstrated he still can this season, you’re going to get some serious coin. In Rose’s case however I feel that his extensive injury history, regardless of his ultimate level of play this season, will depress the market for him a bit.

    How in the world is Wilson Chandler still on that team?!

    Good question. I’d love it if the Knicks could figure out a way to get him out of there though. He’s the type of 3/4 who can do work on the glass that would make small ball lineups with KP and Melo a real problem for other teams to matchup against.

    If you think that’s the case, then sure, lock the whole team in (except Jennings, of course, as if you extend Rose, you lose Jennings, and who knows what Holliday gets on the open market – the Knicks are limited by the MLE.

    If you extend Rose, you can use EB rights to bring back Holiday and not renounce the MLE to bring back Jennings. If we bring back Rose, that’s what I’d expect to happen. Regardless of our moves in free agency I hope we use our pick on either a PG or SG of the future.

    and there are another 9 games before that decision needs to be made on 12/22

    We have to decide by then or we can negotiate an extension after that point?

    if Rose finishes the year averaging 20/5/5 and a TS of 54, and stays healthy, he’s going to get $125MM+ and 4 years from someone. He’ll get a clean bill of health from teams’ medical staffs. He didn’t have micro fracture surgery, his ACL has been stable for 4+ years, and meniscus injuries are a dime a dozen in the NBA. And Chandler Parsons has had what, 2 microfractures? and still got maxed.

    The question is whether the Knicks SHOULD try and get what might be a below-market contract with him, both in terms of years and dollars.

    After 20 games we’ve learned Derrick Rose might be decent if you only count the last 10 games

    Expanding on this, last season Rose went on a few of mini-runs that had people positive he was “back.” He then proceeded to be terrible again. That’s why using anything but an 82 game sample to make this decision would be asinine. If we get outbid as a result of doing so it’s almost certainly a sign that Derrick Rose is getting overpaid.

    I mean, “Derrick Rose’s long term extension not working out” is the most predictable future Knicksy problem. We really should pump the breaks here.

    If you extend Rose, you can use EB rights to bring back Holiday and not renounce the MLE to bring back Jennings. If we bring back Rose, that’s what I’d expect to happen. Regardless of our moves in free agency I hope we use our pick on either a PG or SG of the future.

    True, that could work if they extend Rose this season. Do you think the MLE will be enough for Jennings, though? He certainly does want to play here, so it possibly could get it done.

    It’s prudent to extend him before he gest hurt or his numbers decline from his current Felton levels.

    We are the Knicks.

    Jennings hasn’t had a payday yet and is playing pretty damn well, probably better than the guy we’re saying will get maxed. No way he takes the MLE in my opinion. He just took MLE-money on a one year prove it deal, and is currently proving it.

    @BC

    Yeah, I think MLE gets it done for Jennings. As good as he’s been off the bench, that’s really the role where he’s good and I don’t know if a team is going to throw serious cash at backup point or trust him to be their starter. I also think that while a lot of guys pay lip service with the “I want to play with team X for the rest of my career” in Brandon Jennings case I do believe his desire to be with the Knicks for a long time. Idk if I’ve seen a player just eat up the attention of the Garden crowd and the city as a whole as quickly as Jennings.

    I really like Holiday too. The guy just does a lot of positive things on either end when he’s on the floor and that wingspan is nuts for a wing.

    I do agree that Jennings is one of those rare players who really, really seems like he wants to be a Knick. It must have crushed him that they didn’t take him in the draft.

    Rose would have a better chance at an extension with the knicks, if they hadn’t messed up with the Noah contract. It’s funny because Rose publicly lobbied to get his buddy on the team. Noah’s contract is almost dead weight. I say almost because I am hoping somehow he turns things around (which doesnt seem likely).

    @thenoblefacehumper

    The MLE is projected to go up in the new CBA to start at $8m/yr. That’s why I think we have a very good chance of keeping him in that scenario.

    I get that but Jennings is 27 and potentially coming off what is pretty much an ideal year for him. I just don’t think he locks himself into 4/$32m or something like that.

    Everyone should keep in mind that if we do in fact keep Rose, Holiday, and Jennings then this is the team we’re going to have for the foreseeable future, non-lottery draft picks and minimum/MMLE guys not withstanding. It’s just hard for me to justify that even if we go with an optimistic projection of 45 wins, especially with Noah and to a lesser extent Melo crumbling before our eyes already.

    Hey, I’d prefer they go a different direction, but since they’re not, might as well lock these guys in because they’re probably not going to beat them on the open market.

    But yes, this does also set up the inevitable Melo extension, as well. Then again, here’s an interesting question – was there ever a realistic scenario where Melo doesn’t get an extension from the Knicks?

    Btw when KOQ signed that 4/$16m deal with the Knicks I thought it would be one of the best contracts in the league for a quality backup big. He was so maddeningly inconsistent last year, but Hornacek has definitely got him making better and quicker decisions on the floor. It’s also possible that the death of his father right before the season started last year affect his performance more than we know.

    Considering that I was ready to move on from him at the outset of this season, I’ve been very pleasantly surprised by his uptick in performance this year. His aggression on the boards and improved finishing and athleticism after slimming down this summer have been awesome. Hope he can keep maintain this level of play.

    Lets not mistake something tho. Rose will get paid from someone. Teams get desperate on July 1st. It’s like Black Friday. All you have to do is see what Chandler Parsons, Evan Turner got.

    I dont think the Knicks should to extend Rose until we clinch a playoff spot. Maybe even extend him right before the playoffs start. And they dont have to give him 25. Maybe he will be willing to take 22, or 23. I really dont think he wants to play anywhere else.

    But then again if BJ armstrong tells him there is some team out there willing to give him 4 years 152 million he probably will test free agency and decline the extension.

    If we’re trying to “win now” the best play is to clear cap space for George Hill and max him. He’d be the best player on our team by a country mile and is a top 10-15 player in the league at the moment.

    I’d rather trade our aging and declining assets away but that’s clearly not happening.

    A Melo extension is happening but oh boy it’s going to be moronic

    Lavor,

    I agree with out about the death of O’Quinn’s father affecting him. Also, during last year he was taking classes so he could graduate from college over the summer and keep a promise to his mother. That has to have taken attention away from his basketball last season. Last summer I predicted several times that he would be better this season because of these two factors. And, to my pleasure, he actually is considerably better.

    I also want to comment that we have hit the 20 game mark, as GoNY mentioned. We are better than most people predicted at this point, and this despite the fact that Noah hasn’t contributed much (a factor many said was key to how the Knicks do this season). In fact, we have only one loss to an under .500 team so far this season (Washington). Every other loss was to a team with a winning record. So I would say the optimists are winning the prediction war at the moment.

    one relevant question: if the Knicks renounce the 22 million cap hold on Rose, then use that space to sign someone else, they cannot go over the cap to resign Rose, right?

    one relevant question: if the Knicks renounce the 22 million cap hold on Rose, then use that space to sign someone else, they cannot go over the cap to resign Rose, right?

    Right.

    20 games in:
    I’m impressed with this team.
    1. Injuries have revealed a very good Knicks bench. We have depth we haven’t seen and episodically they play a beautiful game. O’Quinn is Oakley- or Mason-like in terms of grit and he’s strong, although probably not as strong. Jennings is playing starter-worthy ball; he has become a sharing point guard; Holiday and Kuz score and hustle.
    2. I believe Rose is solid. He’s not ball dominant; he picks his time and is getting to the rim and the line. His improving mid-range should improve his penetrations. His body seems to be doing what he wants.
    3. Melo is Melo: up and down. His defense is passable and his shot is still beautiful. His elevation is gone. Still, a pure scorer who can be episodically dangerous.
    4. KP is showing a depth and maturity that is shocking at 21. One for 10 early, the guy knuckled down on the boards. Then his shot started to fall. He is cerebral but not overburdened by mistakes and misses, a dangerous combination. When he gets stronger, whoa.
    5. I think Noah needs more time to fit in. He will become a decent center, useful, and his veteran savvy will help late in the season.
    6. These close games build grit and character. These Knicks are learning how to win. Soon, they will learn how to win big. But right now the Cardiac Knicks have shown the ability when necessary to make the paint a no-go area. KP and O’Quinn get a lot of late blocks.

    This is a team that could win 50 games, IMHO. You love to see teams learn a) how to win, b) develop a bench and c) show late game grit.

    I never got to finishing this…

    The third tier of players on the team are also intriguing.

    Sasha has been solid. He seems to bring order when there’s chaos and can create some chaos for the opponent. As a veteran’s minimum he’s a guy that can play either guard position and hit some shots. Great value for so much experience.

    N’Dour has potential bit needs more playing time. He’s long, lanky and plays vigorous defense. He has some offensive potential. He’s a project.

    Plumlee is a stash project that will contribute more next season. He’s certainly capable of coming in and banging. He’s big, has some good moves and plays with energy. There’s always a place for a guy like that on my team.

    Lance Thomas has been pushed down to 3rd tier by me. His foot will be an ongoing issue all season. We have him signed for a long time. He can hit the 3 and play some D but is he better that Kuz?

    Ron Baker isn’t getting much of a chance to play. He’s the 15th man and is doing a good job of cheer leading.

    @41 – KnickfaninNJ
    I think the Knicks are where I thought they would be. For the duration of this month the Knicks have 4 home games and 9 away games. The next step for the Knicks is to win 4 of those away games. They’ll be hard pressed to do that. The next litmus test will be Jan 1, after we face Harden on the second of a back-to-back away games.

    Cousins demonstrated last night why any team that gives up major assets to get him is crazy. He was 1-5 on 3 pointers (two of them blocked) in the 4th quarter when his team had a chance to take the lead and finished 9-30. But some team out there is going to take a shot that the proverbial “change of venue” and “being surrounded by the right teammates” will do wonders for him and then regret it as he piles up techs and has more games like last night.

    Let’s hope Boston is that team.

    As an aside, I know it’s early in his Knick career, and I certainly don’t begrudge anyone for spelling it the other way (as it sure looks like it should have an apostrophe in it), but the player’s name is just Ndour. No apostrophe and no capitalized D.

    Cousins demonstrated last night why any team that gives up major assets to get him is crazy. He was 1-5 on 3 pointers (two of them blocked) in the 4th quarter when his team had a chance to take the lead and finished 9-30.

    Oh man, like I said, I missed the game, but yeah, watching the replays, holy shit, what was he thinking with those threes?!?!

    While I agree that Fisher’s conduct wasn’t particularly professional for an NBA coach, yeah, the way that Barnes got to be the good guy in NBA circles for basically just being a violent jerk was disappointing.

    so I would say if Rose keeps a .550 ts% until the end of the season without major injuries, the Knicks should renounce his rights and see what’s in the market, while offering him a 3-year 18 mil per deal or something like that.

    giving him an early extension is just a bad overall move, specially since we have no idea what will happen with the 1st rounder the knicks have… maybe try to package Noah and the first if it’s a late 1st rounder for something, then renew Rose if there are no better options available and offer the MLE to either Jennings or Holiday, depending on how they perform over the 82 games.

    I think the Knicks can certainly get this level of production from another PG for less than 22 mil, but probably not for less than 18-16, if Rose keeps it up.

    Small market teams probably need to apply the Billy Beane method: find a defensive big and an array of efficient, not flashy, players.
    Then wait to see if a talented player emerges.
    And if one emerges, like Cousins, move him when he’s on a verge of a big pay day to pick up more efficient, relatively low-cost, young talent.

    We have to find inefficiencies in the league. As we all know, one clear cut inefficiency is paying top dollar for a “star” in the second half of a career.
    In that way, Phil has been half smart: Rose and Jennings were short-term, high- to moderate-risk buys; but the Noah buy was inefficient. Jury is out on Lee.
    In my view if Rose late in the season has become tantalizingly like his old self it might be a good idea to trade him for draft picks and a rental, unless we have a shot at getting to the eastern conference finals.
    I think Jennings is a keeper. The guy simply plays NY ball.
    I also think Melo’s trade value is this year, either before of after the season. He’s still good enough to tantalize a lot of teams. I think we are going to witness a very noticeable physical decline starting next season that will reduce his value.

    I don’t think we should go after Chris Paul. I think Jennings becomes the starter and you find a young PG, perhaps in the draft.

    Well, at the 20 game mark, we are thankfully outperforming our pythag and KP has taken a step up, although he needs to go up a few more rungs to hit true superstar status. I believe he will.

    Re Rose, nothing profound to say except that he just isn’t very good and if he gets signed to a 3 year 75 million extension I will quit being a Knicks fan. It’s true I don’t enjoy watching him play. I also think he is a terrible fit with KP and Melo because he is a score-first/defend-later type. But the bottom line is that he just isn’t a productive player anymore and is the second best point guard on his own team at the moment. There is no way he should be a Knick going forward, no way he is a key piece of the kind of dominant squad I have been hoping to see for years.

    But as always, hoping to be wrong.

    @53

    that’s why I was so on board with tanking this season… let the young guys develop another year, give Jennings a real chance to run the offense and draft a Lonzo Ball / Fultz / Smith kind of guy to pair up with KP and the good cap space the Knicks have… it would be far from the process in Philly, it would literally be a 1-year tank to build what could probably be an incredible team next year.

    but it’s the Knicks and specially being over .500 this soon, it will never happen.

    The next step for the Knicks is to win 4 of those away games.

    I agree 100%. The Knicks have been lousy in away games, but they also have played a lot of good teams so far when they were on the road this season. It’s anyones guess if this is the reason for their lousy road record. A number of our upcoming games on the road are against reasonable opponents. If we are a good team we should win some of those games.

    “if he gets signed to a 3 year 75 million extension I will quit being a Knicks fan”
    No you won’t. And neither will anyone else on this site. By definition, if you’ve been a regular poster on a Knicks fan blog for several years, you are, like the rest of us, a glutton for punishment, and likely will remain one for the foreseeable future. By the way, no one else has commented that, over the last 6 games, KP has become a shot-blocking machine (over 3/game).

    As an aside, I know it’s early in his Knick career, and I certainly don’t begrudge anyone for spelling it the other way (as it sure looks like it should have an apostrophe in it), but the player’s name is just Ndour. No apostrophe and no capitalized D.

    My bad. I was rushing and knew it might be wrong. I spelled Kuzminskis correctly though 😉

    “I also think Melo’s trade value is this year, either before of after the season.”
    I hope that you realize by now that it doesn’t really matter what Melo’s trade value is, now, last year or next year. I have a friend who inherited his parents’ vacation home. I asked him how much he thought it was worth. His answer was, “It doesn’t much matter. I’m never selling it.” Same with Melo.

    By the way, no one else has commented that, over the last 6 games, KP has become a shot-blocking machine (over 3/game).

    Nice

    No you won’t. And neither will anyone else on this site.

    I have two kids in diapers. Not an empty threat. I’d probably be back down the road. In three years KP won’t be 25 yet right?

    My bad. I was rushing and knew it might be wrong. I spelled Kuzminskis correctly though 😉

    I really meant that more as a general note for everyone going forward, as his name is super tricky, so sorry if it seemed like I was singling you out at all. Hell, I certainly spell stuff wrong all the time. I just wrote an article on Replacement Level Yankee Weblog where I called Matt Holliday “Matt Hollday”. 🙂

    @18

    Denver has some exciting talent to build around. They haven’t always drafted the best guy (picking Mudiay instead of a dude Turner sucks for them) but their team has a nice find in Nelson and another steal in Jokic. They just have to get their ducks in order.

    After 20 games we’ve learned Derrick Rose might be decent if you only count the last 10 games

    Which is only fair since he missed most of the preseason due to his trial.

    “I have two kids in diapers.”
    When my 13 year-old triplets were in diapers (we went through 30 a day), I still watched at least 25 games a year. You will not leave us…

    Well folks we’re 20 games into the season and it’s time to get on board the Phil Jackson Express because its getting ready to leave without you.

    koq should be starting and i think that’ll happen sooner rather than later if noah continues this pace…

    i’m not really buying rose’s recent play… but it has been better than the first 10 games… just know that he played well for stretches last year too…. and we definitely should not even be thinking about resigning him next year… if you can’t bring in a better pg and there are a handful available next year… then you just resign jennings for 3 years 24mm and draft a pg and be done with it…

    the team is still about where i’d expect… our pythag win percentage has us on pace for 37 wins and melo and kp haven’t missed any games… if koq starts seeing 25-30mpg and if kuz replaces LT’s minutes then i could see a shot at 40 wins… i wouldn’t get too excited over our record now…

    Extend DRose now because he is great and is a winner…..our most clutch player. We will do no better in free agency or the draft.

    “Win-Now Dreams”
    How many eastern teams have been TRUE contenders during the last 5 years ?

    1

    Lebron’s team

    Can we beat Lebron’s team ?
    Maybe not yet, but that should be the first goal for the win-now squad for the next 3-5 years.

    Oh, and the best thing Noah has done this season is light a fire under Kyle O’Quinn. That might not be worth $18 million per but it’s better than a 25% free throw shooting percentage…. or a stick in the eye.

    Like Bruno said, we’d be foolish to not at least renounce Rose and explore the market. If we’re truly all in, which is extremely dumb but whatever, there are much better options. Worst case scenario Prime Raymond Felton slips through our fingers. Worse things have happened to the New York Knicks.

    In my view if Rose late in the season has become tantalizingly like his old self it might be a good idea to trade him for draft picks and a rental, unless we have a shot at getting to the eastern conference finals.

    There is no way on God’s green Earth we trade Rose if we’re remotely in a position to contend for a playoff spot. The message such a trade would send to the rest of the team would be demoralizing from a competition standpoint.

    We should bring back both Rose and Jennings and draft a young PG to groom for the future. I do not want to have a rookie PG starting and screwing up our team under any circumstances next year.

    Of the free agents available CP3 would take a miracle. Teague is not as good as DRose and Jrue is unproven and injury prone. There is no one better out there than Rose except for CP3 and the odds against that happening are astronomical.

    Oh again. Our bench consisting of Jennings, Holiday, O’Quinn, Kuz and Willy could beat a number of starting teams in this league, I believe. Then add Lance, Sasha, Plumlee and Baker and we have the beginnings of an excellent third team.

    The plan is to explore the better options and if Rose signs while you’re doing so, you live with it because his production isn’t exactly irreplaceable. If you don’t get anyone and have to go with Jennings/draft pick/whoever, your 40 win team is maybe a 35 win team with significantly more flexibility.

    What better options? CP3 is the only better option. The math seems to say it’s close to an impossibility.

    CP3, Hill, Holliday, and Collison are all demonstrably better than Rose. If you’re truly committed to “win now,” you have to actually pursue the guys who give you the best chance to, you know, win now. Signing one of those guys is a “win now” move. Re-signing Rose is a “continue to be mediocre at best now” move.

    I’ll grant you Hill is in Rose’s league. Collison no. He’s also smaller and older than Rose. So that leaves us Hill and CP3 out there. The odds are astronomically against one of them signing with us. And they’ll both cost more.

    teague is better than rose… lowry is also available… holiday is probably on the same level… jennings would be a better caretaker for the position if we draft a pg since he has no issues coming off the bench…

    Hill is in Rose’s league???? Rose doesn’t even approach he of the .277 WS/48, 6.7 BPM, and .667 TS% (holy fucking shit that TS)

    He’s almost on the Kawhi KD CP3 level and that’s absolutely bonkers

    Hill might be playing well but he’s not done this before (contract year) and what makes you think that he’ll come here? Besides, he’s only played 11 games so far so small sample. I don’t think that Teague is better than Rose. Atlanta didn’t want to keep him.

    I’d prefer Hill to Rose and maybe Holiday too, but I have no clue why people are espousing the idea that we should definitely not re-sign Rose no matter what. It’s very possible his uptick in performance is just a blip on the radar and it’s also possible maybe he’s good at basketball again. I don’t believe the Knicks would hand him an extension until he proves he can be durable and productive over a larger sample size and really I think they just wait until the summer to make a decision on him one way or the other.

    Either way I think we should be approaching it from the viewpoint of assessing the situation after the season.

    Teague is also from Indiana. I have a hard time seeing him leaving the Pacers.

    I hate the idea of resigning Rose, if only because I don’t trust this organization to act intelligently (i.e. They’ll do it even if he’s bad while appearing to be good), but I think it’s fine to let him audition for the extension. When do we have to extend him by?

    Also Hills been putting up great numbers for the last five years or so and has probably been the most underrated player in the league over that span of time.

    You can’t throw out a great TS% and not mention that it’s only over an 11 game span. That’s false advertising. He is very good but what makes you think he wants to come here? We know that Rose wants to play here and he’s a winner.

    Aren’t a lot of you guys who are advocating signing George Hill to a four year big bucks contract starting in his age 32 season the same guys who lament having 32 year old Melo and 31 year old Courtney Lee because everyone knows that basketball players fall off a cliff when they hit 32?

    All of those aforementioned PGs trade or as significantly more productive than Rose by any advanced metric, both in this season and prior. Rose might improve to their level, but you’re just plain wrong if you think he’s been as good as Teague or collision or hill so far this year (or the prior few.)

    Hill is in Rose’s league???? Rose doesn’t even approach he of the .277 WS/48, 6.7 BPM, and .667 TS% (holy fucking shit that TS)

    He’s almost on the Kawhi KD CP3 level and that’s absolutely bonkers

    MVP Awards:

    Derrick Rose 1 (and possibly 2 after this season)
    George Hill 0

    I think we need not have this argument.

    Again I don’t want to sign anyone, but if we had to do the win now move, Hill would be the best choice. Hills game will age well and, frankly, he’s a much better player than either Melo or Lee. Like way better.

    Some of you are like guys who are happily married but wonder what it’s like to be married to Beyonce.

    You can’t throw out a great TS% and not mention that it’s only over an 11 game span. That’s false advertising. He is very good but what makes you think he wants to come here? We know that Rose wants to play here and he’s a winner.

    Of course that TS% is unsustainable. But how funny is it that we’re throwing out his 11 games, because they’re outside of his “normal” production, and also throwing out Derrick Rose’s first several games, just because he looks better if we squint at the last 10 games?

    This board is so fucking stupid sometimes that it actually makes me dumber having read it.

    Some of you are like guys who are happily married but wonder what it’s like to be married to Beyonce.

    Wondering what it’s like to be married to Beyonce is different from actively hoping your wife turns into Beyonce. That’s the difference you fail to understand, you demagogic nonsense-spewer. Sad!

    Holy fuck….George hill is better than Melo now. Hahahahahahahahahabhahahahahahahahahagahahagagahahgagagagagah

    This season he is, yeah. He’s been a top 7 player in productivity. He’s 55/45/88 from the field on 22 points per 36, passes well (his assist numbers are deflated by Utah’s glacial pacing), defends well, and he literally never turns the ball over (he’s one of the least turnover prone guards in the league, and he’s currently at 8.6 TOV%.) When you do literally everything well that’ll make you a top 10 player

    I know you’re a Melo homer er, but Hill has been outperforming Melo for the last five years. Sorry your pet player is overrated and you can’t come to terms with that.

    Yeah, over their careers Hill isn’t close to Melo imo, but this season when he’s been on the floor he’s been incredible and had the impact of around a top-10 player. Really hard to argue against his production.

    It’s so easy for simpletons to go say “lol NO WAY POINTZZZ” in the face of literally every statistical metric proving you wrong

    Melos best season was a very good one. He hasn’t kept up that productivity though, unfortunately.

    Here is why I like Rose.

    The debate is this. Do his drives open things up for Melo/KP and others? The naysayers say no because there isn’t evidence that he always kicks it to those guys when they are open when he drives. And yes, I wish Rose would do this a bit more. But even without doing that all the time (he got 6 dimes yesterday by the way), he still opens things up for our offense.

    See now we got Rose, Melo and KP plus additional offense from Willie H, Kuz, Jennings, etc. Each possession on offense the opposing team isn’t sure how we are gonna score. Is Melo gonna iso? Is KP gonna get open for a 3? Is Rose gonna drive to the basket? Is Rose gonna drive and kick it out to Holiday/Lee for an open 3? Is KP gonna do some post moves? Is Melo gonna get open for a 3? Its not easy for the other team to know how to stop us. So yes, this opens things up for Melo and KP. It isn’t just about Rose driving and kicking it out to someone who is open. Its about his ability to score making it difficult for the defense to stop our offense. We can get buckets.

    Last night Melo busted open his lip and KP started out ice cold. Last year that would mean we would be down by 15 or 20 in the first quarter cause we would have had no offense. This year, Rose holds down the fort for the first quarter before Melo gets back in the game. Then Melo does his melo thing for awhile. Jennings scores off the bench. Finally KP starts scoring at the end. We have too many options for teams to deal with.

    I know you’re a Melo homer er, but Hill has been outperforming Melo for the last five years

    Was 2012-2014 more than 5 years ago? He may have been better in Melo s last 2 injury seasons but damn man, wtf

    Also, man can’t you guys just root for him? Or at least acknowledge when he plays well? He’s played great in the last 2 games. It was really good in the OKC loss too. Its just so annoying to come here and read the same negativity every day. Get over it.

    Last 10 games, Kristaps TS% with Rose on the floor 54.9%

    w/o Rose 57.3%

    Objectively, Rose is now making Kristaps worse, and should be benched.

    Yeah, but won’t it be just so Knicksy to sign a superstar like Hill when he turns 32, so that his contract will immediately become an untradeable albatross because 32 year old basketball players are shot?

    Yeah, I mean obviously we’d be at the same level as a team with Jose Calderon who was incredibly underrated and has tremendous value to a team’s offense.

    @111 people are using Rose’s last 10 games to argue how he’s a star, then Hill should get the same treatment.

    @111 people are using Rose’s last 10 games to argue how he’s a star, then Hill should get the same treatment.

    Who is arguing Derrick Rose is a star?

    Rose makes Kristaps worse now that he’s hogging the ball all the time in order to put up stats and get a new contract. This is demonstrably true.

    Once again, guys, let’s sign Rose before he gets injured or regresses from his current Felton heights!

    We can win 37 games every year for the next 5 years with our core intact. The East is bad, man!

    Who is arguing Derrick Rose is a star?

    It’s crazy this site has a lot of Trump like things huh. Like just speaking things into existence

    I’ll think about signing Hill when that is remotely a possibility. But he has had a great career. Been well above average every year since his rookie year. Not sure why anyone would think Melo has been better than he has except pointz….

    And triplets. I can’t even imagine.

    Not sure why anyone would think Melo has been better than he has except pointz….

    Points is like a racial slur for basketball snobs lmao

    YEah a lot of people’s continued faithfulness to the eye test and mistrust of scientific, quantitative analysis is very Trumpian.

    It’s been snowing more than usual in Minnesota this year, so how could there possibly be global warming?

    I think Hill is good and all, but yeah, unless we think the team can get to ECF next year with Noah, KP, Melo, Hill, Lee + the Euro bench, it is silly.

    Like I keep stressing, it’s almost guaranteed that’s Phil or the next GM opts to continue the path we’ve been on and attempt to build a contender rather than doing a proper rebuild. Since we’re talking in the context of what’s possible, the best possible move that’s a live option would be maxing Hill.

    It’s not the best option, but it’s the best option that Phil or the next GM will actually consider, unless this season goes totally to pot.

    YEah a lot of people’s continued faithfulness to the eye test and mistrust of scientific, quantitative analysis is very Trumpian.

    See this is is bullshit though. People have produced various stats that support an argument for “Derrick Rose has been a plus for the Knicks offense”, while others just say he sucks because his TS% is low and he doesn’t get enough assists. So it’s not just an eye test thing, it’s that there are different metrics that people are using to make their arguments.

    Also, basketball is not wall street. There is more to It than the raw numbers. There is emotion, there is cohesiveness etc. The Lin fans remember Linsanity right? lol. So yes if I want to have a want to have a good bball team im taking 2012-2014 Melo over any fucking version of George Hill. So would anyone with sense. You can talk all this shit here but you wouldn’t dare do that shit if it was a real world situation

    I wasn’t talking about Rose specifically so much as I was talking about George Hill vs Melo over the last few years or just the tenor of some posters on this board more generally.

    I think Rose has been somewhat below average, neither obviously good nor obviously trash. I think Jennings is better and I would’ve preferred to keep RoLo. But hey, if he plays better, I’ll take it.

    If Hill is about to turn 32, you guys can’t be serious about giving him a 4 year deal!

    Collison is not better than Rose.

    Holiday is just as big a health risk as Rose and in what way exactly is he better than Rose?

    I would be okay with Teague depending on the deal.

    Lowry is not coming here.

    CP3 is not coming here and I’m not even sure we could afford him anyway.

    If Rose stays healthy, I would be good with trying to resign Holiday, Rose and Jennings. Hopefully we can rid ourselves of LT and maybe even Noah (although I still have hope for Noah) and draft a good PG.

    Rose has been playing well recently and I think he will maintain a high level of play for the rest of the season.

    people are arguing Rose is a plus starter after 10 games, ok, not a star, and I still would take George Hill over him every single time.

    but to call my posts “Trumpian”, lol, that’s the saddest thing I’ve read recently.

    Silky Johnson said it best, so I do not need to repeat it, and unless this team looks poised to make the ECF I’m still a pessimist.

    Oh and as someone previously posted, Willy, Cheezus and Holiday were great signings by PJ!

    It’s funny how you talk about the importance of cohesiveness, Linsanity, and Melo in the same sentence…

    And no one was saying anything about how intangibles arent important, but if I were Melo or Hill’s teammate, I think I’d prefer the guy passing it to me more and not the guy hoisting up contested mid range jumpers.

    Melo is not Gregg Popovich, Lebron, or MJ–he does not make the players around him better like the truly transcendent figures of basketball. He doesn’t have intangibles, really, besides seeming like a nice enough guy.

    George Hills playoff statistics are not all that impressive. He averages like 2 assists per game. The first 11 games of this season yea he looks good but can we judge him in March and April?

    He’s a good player dont get me wrong hut he aint worth no where near the max. Maybe on Utah because he fits their system, but thats their business.

    derrick rose has sucked because he hasn’t been getting to the line… he’s turning the ball over… and on top of that he’s shooting inefficiently… his ws48 is .062…

    he’s played better as of late but looking at the past 20 games and saying ‘we should be thinking about resigning him’… is batshit insane… the only argument has been +/- which many ppl have demonstrated how misleading it is and we are now observing how it’s reverting back with a larger sample…

    if rose plays a lot better…. then yes.. i’d be all for resigning rose… but the last 20 games is not indicative of good production out the pg slot…

    and i’d caution against george hill… he’s been good thus far this year but his age and his health history are question marks and pgs like him tend to not age well….

    There’s no point in arguing with er because you’ll never have access to the locus of his decision-making (his “gut”) and you could wail on said “gut” with evidence all day and it’s still not going to change. Melo is good, therefore he must be good.

    but basketball is not wall street…

    and yet the best teams are the ones who have statistical superstars every single year.

    Signing Derrick Rose for his age 29-31 seasons for $25MM/year is at least a reasonable idea IF he continues to play as well as he has. The chances you can get him for that price at the end of the year are pretty small, because it would’ve meant that he got through the season healthy. The only reason Rose decides to take an extension is because he wants that $ locked in because of injury risk. At this point I think he might do it. Whether it’s a good idea for the Knicks is another story, but I think he is playing himself into that being a reasonable conversation.

    The important thing about how Rose is playing (from my perspective) is how he has improved over the season’s length so far. Scoring more from both volume and efficiency perspective. Getting to the line a lot. Rebounding the basketball. Turnover rate is way down as well. He’s not assisting as much as in his prime days, but the offense is very different too. Yes it’s small sample, but he’s doing things that he USED to do well before the injuries, so it’s not like there isn’t a reason to think he could do them again.

    George Hill is a very good player, but signing him for his age 32-35+ seasons for what will be more than $25MM/year seems ridiculous IMHO. And this is his 9th season. For the previous 7 seasons his eFG has been between 51.3 and 54.1 in a tight range. This season he’s at 62.3. Either you believe that “change in scenery” is responsible (and of course we all know that WoW doesn’t believe in that) or that this is small sample theater.

    See, Hill is the kind of inefficient signing that Knicks should avoid.
    He’s a good PG. He has killed the Knicks. But he will be 32. You’d be signing him to a big contract (the inefficiency in the market), which makes no sense for a guy on the down side of a good career. I don’t want to pay him for his first 20 games this year or a career at Indiana…
    I think Jennings becomes your starter and you look to the draft for a good young PG.

    re: trading Rose if he shows signs of his old self…I know it’s hard to move a guy if you think you can make a good playoff run, but if you trade him late in the season, get good value for him (people who can contribute now and some picks) and then move Jennings to the starter role, I think you can still make a playoff run. Controversial, sure, but I believe a smart decision for the long run.

    Chris Paul also will be 32 next year. Ridiculous to pay him for his past decade. He will be on the downside of a Hall of Fame career. I just think it makes little sense. Find young point guards who can shoot a high percentage from the charity, who are low-turnover performers, and are athletic.

    So er accuses others of being “Trumpian”, while arguing on the side of the only open Trumpkin on this board, and then proceeds to say Melo is better than Hill because he can just fucking feel it.

    “I don’t care if illegal immigration from Mexico has been on a steady decline since 2009, nor do I care that illegal immigrants commit crimes at lower rates than citizens. There are millions of people pouring across our border and committing crimes. I just know it!”

    I don’t think that signing Hill or Paul would be a great idea, but Paul is still wildly productive (having a career year) and you could expect great value out of the first couple years, with the possibility of rapidly decreasing value thereafter. I’d rather have a Chris Paul (excellent but could be average shortly) rather than an Andrew Wiggins (max contract incoming, yet has never been good and is riding the wave of nebulous “upside”).

    Also, Chris Paul is a great shooter and has phenomenal court awareness, and that’s not going to diminish as fast as short players who make their living pounding the rim, a la Nate Robinson/Isaiah Thomas.

    If we’re reducing this to an either/or proposition, I’d rather have an older player who has historically been good than a younger player who has historically been bad, unless it’s on bargain-basement deals like the Spurs’ Boban or Dedmon deals.

    but how are the Knicks supposed to find a young PG that is good enough to get to te line a lot, have low turnovers and is not a liability on defense, as a free agent or in a trade with our limited assets?

    that’s honestly not possible in the near future unless it comes from the draft, and what are the chances a guy like this drops to the 18th overall pick?

    the only chance would be to tank and pick up Fultz or Ball, but that’s not happening.

    lol good god. This is what its come to . George hill. I don’t know why I am always surprised by things. Im getting too old

    So er accuses others of being “Trumpian”,

    Someone posted that people here are saying Rose is a star…..name the non Reub person. Do it, then tell me about all the voter fraud.

    and how the hell is Melo’s basketball reference page an indication that he’s good? it’s much more an indication on how he’s not s true superstar if you ever look on that “advanced” part of the page

    and how the hell is Melo’s basketball reference page an indication that he’s good? it’s much more an indication on how he’s not s true superstar if you ever look on that “advanced” part of the page

    read my posts before you reply to me. Here we go again. I never said super or star whilst in this discussion. I was talking about 2012-14 and how hill has or will never be that good, but whatevs man. Im done with this. im happy about the Knicks. You continue with your George Hill bullshit

    people are arguing for giving Rose a 25 million per year contract, how is that not “star” money???

    i don’t care if Crabbe makes 18 per year, that’s just a terrible contract. Stars should make 25 a year, not better-than-average dudes with an injury history

    Rose stunk the first 10 games of the season and has been pretty good (if not great) for the last ten. If he continues to play like he has the last ten through the all-star break maybe you think about re-signing him to a reasonable deal. But if he plays that well he will be looking for (and probably getting) unreasonable money so I have a tough time thinking up any scenario where having Rose on the team next year would be a good thing.

    CP3 would be optimal but I think he’s way less likely than Hill coming here, and the chances of the latter happening are already small.

    Hilla game ages well because it’s predicated on solid shooting from every range and not turning the ball over. And even if he regresses, he’ll likely be regressing to a league average player, which is what, by hypothesis, we’re talking about paying Rose to be.

    cp3 will be great until he’s 38 or even 40….. i would have no issues giving him a 6yr deal if it were allowed… great players age well… as long as he avoids major injury he will probably be a top 5 pg until he doesn’t want to be…

    $25m AAV would put Rose in the top 10 salaries for next year. But no one is saying he’s a star or anything like that! God. I’m fuckin done with this board man fuckin George Hill man smh I luv Melo.

    GHill better than Melo ?
    Why was he traded twice for “fish & chips” * then ?

    *unproven no15 pick
    *dropout starting pg with dumb face

    wtf…

    Jennings hasn’t had a payday yet and is playing pretty damn well, probably better than the guy we’re saying will get maxed. No way he takes the MLE in my opinion. He just took MLE-money on a one year prove it deal, and is currently proving it.

    This may go down as Phil’s best FA signing. Watching him energize the team, pressure PG’s, and be an excellent distributor would make any Knicks fan say he’s playing well. But here’s where this signing works well for Phil: During negotiations, the team can point at the numbers and probably get a multi year MLE deal rather than a much larger deal that Jennings will likely demand. His shooting numbers have never been great, but they’re really bad this season- and he’s not scoring at his usual clip. That said- extending Rose now is intriguing with the way his play is trending. I wouldn’t argue against it at this point. But the room the team could have if we keep Jennings instead will be great going forward. With the leap KP is having, Phil is probably stashing that idea in his back pocket

    We should bring back both Rose and Jennings and draft a young PG to groom for the future. I do not want to have a rookie PG starting and screwing up our team under any circumstances next year.

    I’m reading all the arguments and am firmly in Reub’s corner. The reason that we ended up with Rose in the first place is cost of other free agent point guards. Those who think we can need to check themselves in for rehab. I would jump though hoops and give up some a valuable asset to move way up in the lottery to snag a point guard for Rose and Jennings to mentor. We’re not coming up with a Westbrook, Curry or CP3 caliber point guard in free agency. We just aren’t.

    Remember that our other FA choices this past season were Conley, Rondo and then the likes of Lin, Sessions and similar before absolute scrubs.

    @149

    Point to a single post I made that called George Hill a star or a better player than Melo… it seems that you need to read my posts, after all.

    I only said that if people are calling Rose good, a “star” after 20 games, then we should be able to call George Hill good too after 20 games.

    see, this is why it’s so annoying to discuss with you, Melo’s career high ws/48, which shows in that basketball reference page, is .184, and he has a .135 for his career

    George freaking Hill, who I don’t think is a star, has a .149 for his career, his best is 2014/15 with a .203 and he has .277 so far this season.

    but you will ignore this again and say that it’s absurd to call Hill a better player than Melo or even on the same level at least because feelings or some other bullshit.

    people are arguing for giving Rose a 25 million per year contract, how is that not “star” money???

    i don’t care if Crabbe makes 18 per year, that’s just a terrible contract. Stars should make 25 a year, not better-than-average dudes with an injury history

    I think you are living in 2014 if that’s what you think.

    Chris Paul – who is a STAR – will START at nearly $36MM/year and will have a $200MM contract when the Clips max him out through his age 37 season. Most of the other “stars” who are making $25MM either took below market contracts or are shut out from the megamax due to years of service (or both, like Giannis). Because of restricted FA, true stud FAs don’t hit unrestricted FA until they at least are getting 30% of the cap as the starting point of their max. And by all reports, the new CBA will open the doors to even the younger guys getting into the higher percentages earlier in their careers.

    The only difference making PGs in FA 2017 are Curry (not happening), CP3 (not happening most likely), Lowry (not happening). You better believe every last one of them is starting their 5 year max in at least the low 30MM/year range.

    I would be receptive to the idea of Collison + Jennings as our backcourt next year, but it’s hard to imagine that having a higher upside than Rose + other (draft pick?). But sure, I’d be receptive to it.

    Aren’t a lot of you guys who are advocating signing George Hill to a four year big bucks contract starting in his age 32 season the same guys who lament having 32 year old Melo and 31 year old Courtney Lee because everyone knows that basketball players fall off a cliff when they hit 32?

    The reason the Melo/Lee/Noah signings were bad was because they indicated we were going into faux “win now” mode full stop despite only giving us the ceiling of…let’s be very generous and say 48 wins. No one would’ve complained about them if they were rounding out a contender. That direction is incredibly stupid, but because of those signings we’re now stuck with it and might as well make the best of it. Hill helps you win games a lot more than Derrick Rose (or Melo, lol) does, so since that’s what we’ve stupidly decided to do, he’d be a “good” signing.

    or some other bullshit.

    lol aka being a number one option. Which is why the number one options who are better than Melo are legit superstars. Funny how that works

    oh, so being a number one option on a team should instantly make all your statistics worse? come on.

    and Frank, I understand that top superstars will make 30 million in the free agency, but the cap will be 102 million next year, lower than the projection… I don’t understand why a player who’s not a star would be worth 25% of the total cap for a team that wants to be a contender, unless it’s a bad move.

    So we can only compare Melo to other guys who lead their team in FGAs? Can we then only compare guys second in FGA attempts on their team to other guys second on their team? Third, and so on?

    So we can only compare Melo to other guys who lead their team in FGAs?

    No not at all. But it makes the most sense. There are teams with Co no 1 options. or inter changeable. This years Knicks is actually a good example of that. But for most of Melos career it hasn’t been close.

    This is not some kind of sure fire thing. Its a basketball thing. There are players who are a cog and some who the whole team revolves around. To compare different types of players is not sure fire. I can only think of 2 players off of the top of my head who went from role players to star….Tmac and James Harden.

    “And triplets. I can’t even imagine.”
    Patience, Owen, patience. If you’ve got two in diapers right now, I can assure you that, in a year or so, life will begin to get much easier. The so-called “terrible twos” are a walk in the park compared to the first two years. Imagine how much time you will have to watch the Knicks, even if they stink! By the way, my wife and I are a little bit crazy. We never let the fact that we had three infants interfere with our life. Once, when they were five months old, on a whim we took them to South Beach for a four day weekend, our rationale being that it is no more difficult to take care of them in a hotel room than at home. And, since the day they were born, we have always made sure that, once a week, we go out to dinner without them. It helps maintain your sanity.

    The reason the Melo/Lee/Noah signings were bad was because they indicated we were going into faux “win now” mode full stop…

    This is really not true, given we are developing Porzingis, Hernangomez, and Kuzminskas. The question is can you try to win games while still developing players.

    The “full stop” win now would have involved sending out draft picks and/or young players. I don’t count Jerian Grant in that, even though he has been playing a little better lately in very limited minutes. And we actually got a better guard back in Justin Holiday. and a draft pick.

    25 million today is like 18 million a few years ago. People need to realize the money amounts have changed. Rose will get paid. If we extend him now we can get him for 25 million (maybe a few less) for just 3 years. Holiday, Hill…will easily command that much for longer contracts which is not as enticing to me. And CP3…man that would be sweet but he’s gonna get like over 30 million for 5 years.

    Also, if we extend Rose now and he continues to play like he has or improve, then that’s a moveable contract (say if CP3 or westbrook wants to force a trade).

    And Rose (and the rest of this team) can improve the longer they play together. Most people thought we’d win 35 to 40 games IF Noah was healthy. We’re on track to do that with him not playing that much yet. If he bounces back this team can be scary good. Championship? Probably not. But I’ll take a shot at the ECF right now with draft picks going forward. Phil and the scouts have found value later in the draft and with undrafted players. We’ll have a first rounder and 2 second rounders this summer. I’d love to go into the offseason knowing that most of our team is in tact. That’s how you build a good team. Keeping players so they can grow together and learn how to play together.

    Its ok though. The pessimists on this board will move the goal posts all season bc if you’re a pessimist its super easy to be right. All you have to say is that if we don’t compete for a championship then we’re a failure and that’s such an easy stance to take since only one team wins it every year and only 3 teams are legit title contenders every year. I’ll take playoffs and winning a series or two while KP, Willie H, etc…develop. We got KP who is super young. Willie H is super young. We got youngish dudes with KQ, Kuz, Holiday. We got older vets with Noah, melo, etc. Its a nice mix. And we got picks going foward. a lottery pick would be nice. Who’s the say phil can’t find a way to find a lottery talent though…

    The pessimists have slowly stopped talking about Grant lol

    The people who bring up Grant the most are those who knock Grant. That said, care to guess who has a higher WS/48 this season between Grant and Rose?

    Even when the Knicks win, the “optimists” have no idea who’s responsible for it.

    by the way, Grant will start against the Blazers today, Rondo is suspended.

    he was pretty decent in the 2 starts he had so far.

    The people who bring up Grant the most are those who knock Grant.

    Because people got tired of being told how shitty Rose is and how much of an asset Grant was ALL summer long by some ppl.

    Grant makes something like 7% of what Rose makes and is virtually the same re: production.

    Have you ever budgeted for something like a kitchen remodel? If you only have $10k to spend, and you spend $5k on the oven, you might end up with balsa wood for countertops. Opportunity cost, dude. Please read about it so we can have an adult discussion.

    Grant makes something like 7% of what Rose makes and is virtually the same re: production.

    Oh is that right? lol this is an interesting interpretation of data. Tell me more…

    @174

    here you go again.

    you complain about people putting words in your mouth, yet continues to make overarching statements like this one.

    this is tiresome.

    Trading Grant was fine. Trading Grant, and a bonafide good player in Lopez, for Derrick Rose was extremely stupid.

    @176:
    Grant 2016-17: FG% 33.3%, 3P% 23.5%, Pts 4.2, TRB 1.5. Ast 1.3
    DRose 2016-17: FG% 45.5%. 3P% 30.1%, Pts 17.0, TRB 4.3, Ast 4.9

    Same production?

    You can just see Rose getting better every day. He’s getting to the line at a fantastic rate and rebounding for us too. His good size and strength allow us to go to the nuclear option more often too….he and Jennings playing at the same time.

    Brian, I hope you’re not really equating Grant to Rose. Too many numbers can make people crazy. Use your eyes.

    Grant’s been doing his work on the defensive end so far this season.

    But hey, I certainly have no interest in talking about Grant. er brought him up, because he was mad that people…brought up Grant too much? Try to parse that one.

    @176:
    Grant 2016-17: FG% 33.3%, 3P% 23.5%, Pts 4.2, TRB 1.5. Ast 1.3
    DRose 2016-17: FG% 45.5%. 3P% 30.1%, Pts 17.0, TRB 4.3, Ast 4.9

    Same production?

    Did you just give me per-game numbers, knave?

    Rose has been better than Grant this season, but Grant’s also played very, very few minutes. 171 is barely 6 or 7 games from a rotation player. I mean, shit, why don’t we just call Klay Thompson a scrub instead of “2nd team All-NBA” while we’re at it?

    Rose has not been good, but not as bad as he has been. He’s sure as hell not worth $22M this year. There’s no debate about this.

    Did you just give me per-game numbers, knave?

    Here comes the “if he was good, he’d be getting minutes.” It’s coming. I figured I’d preempt.

    Jerian Grant is better than Oscar Robertson per36nanosecond of a back2back game

    After Sunday night’s win against the Sacramento Kings, Rose told ESPN New York’s Ian Begley that his team, “Can’t be content with where we’re at,” and that they’re “far away” from where they can be.

    LEADER MATERIAL

    BOston with a tough Dec schedule. The KNicks if good should have a better record by the Christmas game

    Did you just give me per-game numbers

    Players don’t play games? lol or do they do something else now?

    If you want to slice per minute or whatever you want to do, shouldn’t that factor into your 7% figure? or nah?

    Would rather have Holiday and a 2nd round pick than Grant. If we’re summing up that deal it’s BS to leave those components out of it. Knicks got a starter and a rotation player out of that deal. Bulls got the same. I think both teams are happy with that swap other than KB posters who have decided Rose is a net negative player who couldn’t possibly provide any tangible benefit to the team they couldn’t have got from Jose Calderon.

    Knickerblogger.net

    Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

    never has this banner been more relevant.

    Unrestricted Free Agents PG I havent heard mentioned is Shaun Livingston. Yea He’s 31 years old but he wont cost near as much as Cp3.
    Big PG, excellent passer,veteran presence. He would be good for KP.

    Ian Clark is also unrestricted. Not sure Golden state can compete with a competitive offer and resign Curry to a Mega Max

    J.J Reddick will be available as well. If we stick with the win-now approach I think hell be a good addition slide Lee to the bench. Not sure what he would want in terms of dollars.

    Besides that options severaly limited. Slim pickings for the 2017 free agency.

    Please dont give me Darren Collison, I just watched him get dominated last night by our PG’s who “suck”.

    The pessimists have slowly stopped talking about Grant lol

    Also haven’t heard the name Langston Galloway much lately (9-34 in his last 5 games, .466 EFG% for the season)

    I can’t decide if Ian Clark is good or just looks good because he’s on GSW. He’s an intriguing player for sure though.

    Also haven’t heard the name Langston Galloway much lately (9-34 in his last 5 games, .466 EFG% for the season)

    He’s definitely struggling so it’ll be interesting to see who wins the WS48 race between him and Courtney Lee, who is seven years older and gets paid nearly three times as much.

    If this is what the board looks like when we start winning, I wonder what it looks like when we are really good.

    Courney Lee replaced Aaron Afflalo. Justin Holiday replaced Galloway and is outplaying him at a lower price.

    Don’t sleep on George Hill. He’s EXPLODED. If he keeps up his current pace, he’s a legit threat to have a 50/40/90 season.

    As an analytics-sympathetic member of #TeamOptimist, I believe it’s ideal to move on from Rose after this season. Rose’s post-injury ceiling is still not the best fit for this team. A realistically great season for Rose this year involve him regressing to his career means on midrange shooting, three pointers, and driving to the basket. It also requires him playing the best defense of his career. I think Rose’s shooting will improve slightly as he rounds into game shape after missing the preseason. I see him winning the Knicks a few close games with clutch plays down the stretch. That’s it.

    I see Rose having a pretty good season. The issue is that Rose in NY to rehabilitate his reputation. He will want near-max money. If the Knicks bring him back for what he’ll ask, it will cap the future of this Knicks team at like second-round, ECF-flirting status. That’s Atlanta. They kept it together for 3-4 years. I want more than that.

    I love to watch the Knicks win. I love to watch respectable basketball. But as Owen said earlier, I’d give that up this season in exchange for a a dominant team when KP starts rounding into his prime. Unlikely as it is IRL, I’d trade Rose at the deadline for a chance at that. Unleash Jennings. Maybe NY will have a shot at one of those sweet, sweet college PG prospects.

    My ranking of preferred outcomes (disclaimer: lol it’s the Knicks who knows what will actually happen)

    1. Trade Rose at deadline, draft a PG.

    2. Let Rose walk, sign Paul. If not Paul, then George Hill.

    3. Let Rose walk, start Jennings. Or, let Rose walk, sign Jrue Holliday.

    4. Sign Rose for a below-market discount. If NY keeps him, lock him up for cheap. (This is lowest, because shame on me if I put my faith in the Knicks’ contract negotiations.)

    He’s definitely struggling so it’ll be interesting to see who wins the WS48 race between him and Courtney Lee, who is seven years older and gets paid nearly three times as much.

    I’ll put my money on Lee (.533 TS%) over Galloway (.479 TS%) but maybe I’m just a dumb optimist.

    Other than the fact that I think RoLo is better than Rose, my main problem with that trade is more process than result insofar as it’s some seriously knicksy shit

    I know George Hill has been putting up great numbers this year, but if we’re giving a non-Chris Paul pg a big 4 year deal, I’d rather give it to 26 year old Jrue holiday, who is also putting up some good numbers this year.

    btw what’s the consensus on Jrue Holiday as a PG option? He’s 26 but could easily miss 20 games a season. Holiday means no Jennings and wading back into the market for a backup PG. Yay or nay to a Holiday Bros reunion?

    Edit: Going off a rough estimate of the past 4-5 seasons, I’d expect a .520-30 TS, .370-80 3PT.

    Also, what stats are y’alls consulting for efficacy at driving to the rim and drawing free throws

    Did you just give me per-game numbers, knave?

    Insults aside, yes. You used the word PRODUCTION and production is about quantity not quality.

    Sure, someone comes off the bench against bench players and has some results. That’s totally meaningless. This is why I say that there are too many people that are focused on stats and not reality. It’s a reality that the Bulls do not think Grant is starter material (except when Rondo is suspended, like tonight). Nobody game-plans against Grant or doubles him.

    He’s sure as hell not worth $22M this year. There’s no debate about this.

    Let’s debate this. What do you expect out of a $22M point guard? Conley signed for $26M. Bradley Beal for $22M. What do you expect? This is a matter of supply and demand. Point Guards are very difficult to find.

    Here are the Free Agent contracts for 2016-17. What was a better idea for the Knicks?

    Mike Conley – 5 years/$153M
    Jordan Clarkson – 4 years/$50M
    Matthew Dellavedova – 4 years/$38.5M
    Jeremy Lin – 3 years/$36M
    Brandon Jennings – 1 year/$5M
    Ty Lawson
    Jerryd Bayless – 3 years/$27M
    Deron Williams – 1 year/$10M
    Austin Rivers – 3 years/$35M
    Randy Foye – 1 year/$2.5M
    Raymond Felton
    DJ Augustin – 4 years/$29M
    Rajon Rondo – 2 years/$28M
    Isaiah Canaan – 2 years/$2.1M
    Greivis Vasquez – 1 year/$4.3M
    Ish Smith – 3 years/$18M

    Theres a slim chance Jrue Holiday would come to NY when he can get a 5 year Max from Pelicans.

    Can he get a 5-year deal from New Orleans? What’s the deal with that? Isn’t there some limit to how many five-year deals a team can give out? Am I imagining that rule?

    I think paying Jrue market price is an overpay, but you could do worse. Either he’s good, and justifies his pay, or he gets injured or is overpaid, which hurts our win total and gives us better picks as we enter into KPs prime. I’m fine with either.

    @Dough Chew –

    I’m with you on some of the options. I can live with Jennings + a high pick PG but there’s a problem. You can’t trade Rose at the deadline and know where you’ll fall in the draft. The odds are that a good team (trying to make a playoff push) takes him and the #1 pick would fall in the 20’s. So it would need to be a draft-day trade. (Unless we can convince the Celtics to give up that Nyet pick)

    Other than the fact that I think RoLo is better than Rose, my main problem with that trade is more process than result insofar as it’s some seriously knicksy shit

    Mine too. Bad process. Not that RoLo was a crippling loss, as much as I liked him. It was that him and Jerian Grant were the only decent trade assets the Knicks had and they used them to buy low on Rose.

    I think the most positive thing about the Rose trade is that it proves how good the Knicks can be with a point guard that gets to the rim and plays decent perimeter defense.

    I was hoping for Rose to be a league average point guard. It’s been #TWENTYGAMES (cf. Owen) and that he has shown that so far. The Knicks could be an ECF contender with an even better PG.

    Can he get a 5-year deal from New Orleans? What’s the deal with that? Isn’t there some limit to how many five-year deals a team can give out? Am I imagining that rule?

    Brian, we rely on you for these factoids. Is there a limit to the number of 5-year contracts a team can dole out?

    @208

    I’m with you on some of the options. I can live with Jennings + a high pick PG but there’s a problem. You can’t trade Rose at the deadline and know where you’ll fall in the draft. The odds are that a good team (trying to make a playoff push) takes him and the #1 pick would fall in the 20’s. So it would need to be a draft-day trade. (Unless we can convince the Celtics to give up that Nyet pick)

    I edited this out because of the word limit, but to me, trading Rose and starting Jennings looks like a stealth tank. I think taking the chains off Jennings and letting him ball out will equal Rose’s production. However, the lack of a backup means that the Knicks will probably lose more games. What are they going to do, play Sasha big minutes? Throw Ron Baker/Chasson Randle into the frying pan?

    If we didnt have Noah we would have the flexibility to sign someone like Serge Ibaka this offseason. Wouldn’t that be an awesome frontcourt with KP & Melo. Imagine the floor spacing and shot blocking. Man O Man.

    If we didnt have Noah we would have the flexibility to sign someone like Serge Ibaka this offseason.

    Dude Ibaka is like 37 years old

    I hope Noah is doing some wizard shit to mentor KP and Willy, because trading RoLo feels like a major uh-oh at this point. For all of Lopez’s struggles in the Triangle, the Knicks did have a legit Twin Towers defense in the paint. Granted, I didn’t know Jennings would be this good. With the benefit of hindsight, the Knicks could have kept RoLo and signed Jennings and someone like Ramon Sessions. Justin Holiday has been a minor revelation, however. Oh well. Hypotheticals and alternate histories are pretty frivolous.

    most telling picture of the night – phil and vlade talking prior to the game…

    can you imagine silky with an ID of silky johnson, vlade divac hater of the year…yeah, now that would really suck for us all…

    ugh, tough apparent no win situation with rose and jennings after this year…it’s seriously hard for me to trust rose (although every day he’s sounding and looking more and more like of a top tier nba pg), and, i really like jennings coming off the bench…but, like a bunch of folks have already pointed out – what other options are there?

    for a while i was on the whole let’s get jrue next year hype train – until i remembered that he’s more frail than rose…

    regarding cp3 – i’m out here in the greater la area and i watch some clipper games from time to time – i hate watching him play – sure he’s good, but, he absolutely holds the ball way to long…i hate watching that style of play – glad i’m not a houston or okc fan…there’s 5 guys out on the court – use them all…

    i do kinda like the sound of livingston and jennings as our 1 -2 pg combo…sean’s demonstrated that he can stay healthy and on the court the last few years…

    and a holy cow (big fan of phil rizzuto calling yanks game growing up) to over 200 posts on this thread – for a monday!!!

    looks like our little knick community is alive and well…glad i finally stopped lurking here and actually started doing some typing…turns out jowles’ cock isn’t so scary and intimidating after all (please, nobody tell him i said that – i don’t want him making it yellow rain all over me)…

    What does everyone think of Shaun Livingston and what do yall think he would command on the open market?

    i don’t think jrue is a good FA buy…. he has similar problems to rose as he’s always had sky high usage for what he can do in an efficient manner and has injury concerns of his own also… the hope is that he brings his usage down but then gets more efficient… not impossible but usage rates tend to be sticky… and if they are you are getting what you are getting with rose roughly except it looks different…

    The reason I am skeptical about all of this is because all of this talk about resigning this or that player doesn’t mean crap if it weren’t for 33 minutes of a second year player’s improved production. That’s an awful lot to put on a dude’s shoulders.

    Brian, we rely on you for these factoids. Is there a limit to the number of 5-year contracts a team can dole out?

    Ha! Okay, looking into it, it looks like the limit is only for extensions on rookie contracts. So if you have two good young players, only one of them can be given a five-year extension. Holiday has to be off his rookie deal by now, right?

    @BC

    That doesn’t make sense. Didn’t Washington give Wall a 5 year extension after his rookie deal and then follow that up with the Beal 5 year max also?

    Beal was re-signed as a free agent. Not as an extension. Wall got their one designated player extension.

    Ahhh okay. Got it. So once the player hits FA their team can hand them a 5-year deal, but if it’s an extension only 1 player can get it.

    Ian Clark has a TS% of .616 and a WS/48 of .128 so is obviously much better than Derrick Rose.

    You heard it here first on knickerblogger.net.

    What does everyone think of Shaun Livingston and what do yall think he would command on the open market?

    I can’t get on board with Livingston. He is butter from midrange but has no three point shot. It would harm NY’s spacing. GSW is the perfect place for him to thrive; he can shine in limited minutes. I think his career is a wonderful story. Yet I don’t think he has another level to his game. Let’s not forget — one more knee injury and his career is over.

    Back to George Hill for a sec: Signing players in their 30s during their decline phase is not ideal. But for Chris Paul we make an exception because he’s a HOF player who, barring catastrophic injury, will probably decline to a league average PG with stellar BBIQ. I think his floor is a final stage Jason Kidd with an even better three point shot.

    I think George Hill’s game could also age well into a 3&D shooting guard. He’s 6′ 2 but has a 6’9 wingspan. He’s a good spot-up shooter that plays great defense. He’s one of the best post entry passers in the NBA. Really smart player. Even if he can’t run a pick and roll at age 36, you could do a lot worse than have him spread the floor.

    Brian, Jerian Grant sucks. For real sucks. Not pretend sucks like some on here say about our winner and leader, DRose.

    Rondo has been suspended for conduct detrimental to the team for one game. Who were the geniuses that wanted him here for a “savings” over Rose?

    I hope that Phil took Vlade out for dinner and wined and dined him some. Vlade seems to have no idea what he’s doing out there.

    Nice piece on Lonzo Ball from the Ringer.

    I actually came away lower on Ball after reading it. Ball is a pass-first PG with great court vision, but has struggled so far against college teams with elite athleticism shrinking down the lanes. He has unlimited, Curry-level 3 point range, just as the hype indicated, but no midrange game to speak of. Also, an unorthodox Kevin Martin-style hitch in his shooting motion. At 6’6, 190, he can play above the rim but is not very strong. An intriguing string bean of a player.

    Rondo has been suspended for conduct detrimental to the team for one game. Who were the geniuses that wanted him here for a “savings” over Rose?

    By Grabthar’s Hammer… what a savings.

    tbf I don’t think any clamoring for Rondo was taken very seriously. At least I hope not. I don’t remember exactly.

    I don’t remember a clamoring, but I think there were some that were in favor of signing Rondo.

    Ahhh okay. Got it. So once the player hits FA their team can hand them a 5-year deal, but if it’s an extension only 1 player can get it.

    Yeah, exactly. So Holiday is free to get five from NO

    I remember saying “anyone but Rondo,” so I definitely was not on that ship, nor on the Galloway cruise, either…
    🙂

    Back to the issue of a Denver Nuggets team without a star in the post-Melo era. If I was Tim Conley would trade for Boogie Cousins with the talent I’ve amassed since then. They could easily offer up a deal of Chandler, Mudiay, Nurkic ($16,396,266) and their extra first round pick for Cousins ($16, 957, 900). Sacramento would get a solid veteran in Chandler and some upside assets with Mudiay and Nurkic while the Kings would still have plenty of talent to supplement Cousins with. A frontcourt of Cousins, Fareed, and Gallo is a good start. They can then invest in acquiring a new PG in a deep draft.

    Mudiay has been actual hot garbage since coming into the league. Denver’s gonna have to add way more juice to any potential trade with the Kings to land Cousins.

    Murray is the guy I’d be asking for if I was Sacramento, but I also would have traded our 2018 first to a team to pick him for us last year.

    Mudiay has been actual hot garbage since coming into the league.

    Mudiay makes sense for a team in Sacramento which is starting from scratch. He’s still very young with a lot of potential upside if he ever figures out how to iron out his shot. And he’s got better upside than anyone a team like the Celtics would want to offer Sacramento for in a trade deal.

    Denver’s gonna have to add way more juice to any potential trade with the Kings to land Cousins.

    If push came to shove I would substitute Jokic for Nurkic. But that would be pushing it. Jokic and Mudiay are as talented a bunch of young players the Kings could ever fetch for Cousins.

    I think the most positive thing about the Rose trade is that it proves how good the Knicks can be with a point guard that gets to the rim and plays decent perimeter defense.

    Hmm…..you mean someone like Jerian Grant who had a .315 FTr last season compared to Rose’s career .257 and who wouldn’t have been constrained by the Triangle offense this season? But even if one reasonably thinks Grant will amount to nothing then Phil could have looked to trade him for a young player instead of trading him and Lopez for the rich man’s Aaron Brooks. Heck we probably could have gotten WCS for Lopez/Grant.

    But that would be pushing it. Jokic and Mudiay are as talented a bunch of young players the Kings could ever fetch for Cousins.

    Jokic and Mudiay shouldn’t even be in the same actual basketball league. Mudiay is hot flaming garbage and has been for the entirety of his NBA career so far. I might call him the worst guard in the NBA right now if jon abbey favorite Brandon Knight didn’t exist on a team that actually gives him minutes.

    I mean, let’s talk stats. He has a .442 TS% over 2700 minutes played. Let’s just stop there. That’s awful. That’s worse than Derrick Rose’s scoring, and you know how I feel about Derrick Rose. That’s “every one of my teammates needs to dig my team out of the hole that I put them in by bricking 2 or 3 shots more than the average guard per game.” That’s horrendous. I would trade him for nothing. If I got twenty bucks back for his contract, I’d treat myself to a sandwich and still feel like I fleeced whatever FO manager was dumb enough to pick up the phone for me. He is literally the worst.

    @237

    Mudiay is still a player who divides front offices. Those who take an advanced stat oriented approach hate him as you obviously do. Those which don’t will see his upside, realize he still should be in college, and invest time in developing his talents on the NBA court. Guess which camp the Kings belong to…

    The weirdest thing with Mudiay is his major problem is how god awful he is a t finishing at the rim. 47.9% from 0-3 feet over his still young career. 30.9% from 3 isn’t great, but you could talk yourself into it if he was finishing efficiently elsewhere, but he has been actual shit from every single range.

    On top of that he has managed to regress as a playmaker, going from 9.0 assists and 5.3 turnovers per 100 possessions last season to a real cool 6.5 assists and 4.8 turnovers per 100 possessions this season. This is also while he’s on 24.4 USG%.

    Of their young players I would much rather have Jokic, Nurkic, Harris, Juancho or basically anybody else on their roster.

    Of their young players I would much rather have Jokic, Nurkic, Harris, Juancho or basically anybody else on their roster.

    Me too, but I am starting low. If push came to shove I would offer either one Jokic/Nurkic/Juancho F/C options and Harris/Murray/Mudiay option G option that the Kings want plus Wilson Chandler and their extra first round pick for Cousins. Its a very fair deal for a player with issues who won’t resign come 2018. If the Celtics can do better hat’s off to them.

    I would have been fine with Rondo for a year.

    Me too. I was for getting him before we made the trade for Rose.

    Would we all be happier with Rolo, Rondo and Grant instead of Rose, Holiday and Noah on a 4-year deal? That’s an interesting question. Hmmm, maybe.

    Huh. I didn’t realize that Rondo shot 36.5% from three last year.

    ESPN stats website isn’t working for me — Rondo has a reputation for being “selectively engaged” on defense, but do the metrics say him or Rose is a better defender?

    BTW, whoever here said Chris Paul holds the basketball in his hands too much should retire their basketball card…forever.

    I dream at night of the prospect that Chris Paul would dare grace our basketball world with his unearthly greatness. Any Knicks fan should thank the heavens he would associate himself with our franchise. He would be our Unicornrider, our Melotamer, our Sweeter Rose. He would bestow upon the Knick fandom an ethereal plain of basketball consciousness reserved for Gods and angels. Like a Basketball Christ he would descend from above, bestow us with his boon, die for our basketball sins, and be resurrected in the Hall of Fame. Bards would sing ballads of his legendary greatness for centuries and his name inscribed upon humanity’s collective consciousness like Gilgamesh, Samson, Osiris, Odysseus, Achilles, Aeneas, Sigmund, Beowulf, Sundiata Keita, and Vishnu.

    @244 – Rondo is clearly the better defender. Past years and this year.
    When I brought up Rondo’s name in the off-season I was eviscerated. He led the NBA in assists last season but I was drowned out but his reputation as a head case and team poison.

    Someone posted that Jerian Grant was a valuable trade asset. Really? We were lucky that Chicago wanted or should I say accepted him as part of the trade. He’s no loss whatsoever. Holiday is CLEARLY better with more upside than Grant who is just mediocre at best.

    Rolo I liked but are you telling me that will still need him? Oak is better and Willy will be. A healthy Noah is considerably better (although no one knows if he will ever be healthy again…sad).

    We are better and I have faith based on the play of the players PJ acquired that we will continue to get better and he will make good decisions when this season is over. We have a nice blend of veterans and youngish/young guys with upside. And, WE ARE WINNING!!!! : )

    Lets go Knicks!!!!

    If things continue as they are, would Justin Holiday get paid substantially more than Langston Galloway did last summer?

    @248

    his reputation as a head case and team poison.

    Both the quality of Rondo’s play and his unsavory reputation can be true. Chicago has already suspended him for one game for berating an assistant coach. Last year the league suspended him for using gay slurs against a referee.

    Someone posted that Jerian Grant was a valuable trade asset. Really? We were lucky that Chicago wanted or should I say accepted him as part of the trade. He’s no loss whatsoever. Holiday is CLEARLY better with more upside than Grant who is just mediocre at best.

    That might have been me. I said Grant was an asset. I didn’t say he was a valuable one. He was an asset because he was the previous year’s first round pick and on a rookie contract.

    I wish Hornacek would have gotten a look at THJR . He looks like he doesn’t suck anymore

    Yeah but I like the move. We needed a lead guard like a fat kid needs that second serving. Gotta take chances

    Mostly kidding. Just a little ribbing for the guys who thought Tim was hot garbage.

    At the time that we jettisoned Tim, who among us thought he would ever be much of player? His “D” was atrocious and he wasn’t consistently hitting his jumper so…..

    Holiday is a nice player on a cheap contract. Not sure he will be worth anything more than the MLE, though. He’s almost 28 (in fact, about exactly the age that Lance Thomas was at this time last year) and still has holes in his game. We already spent too much on Lance, and that’s about the kind of player that Holiday is.

    Holiday has the potential to be a better finisher, defender and shooter than LT.

    You don’t sign Holiday above the MLE, if that.

    THJr is still awful on defense so I’m not feeling too much seller’s remorse.

    @262

    Jets are embarrassing themselves tonight…

    That understates how bad the Jets are playing. They are a steaming pile of excrement.

    You’d think that a role player like THJr. would have a career year next to a synergy-winner like Carmelo, but weirdly, he got better on a team with no legit volume scorer. Weird. It’s almost like… it’s almost like…

    I think any improvement shown by TH2 could probably be chalked up to the Atlanta coaching staff rather than his natural basketball gifts ha ha

    Right and the fact that he played with melo for his rookie year in which he was faarrr better than he was the next year when Melo was hurt. But who Am I to stand in The way of Jowles melo bashing

    Wow, Horford misses a layup at the buzzer that would have won the game for Boston.

    I feel SO bad for Celtics fans…

    Right and the fact that he played with melo for his rookie year in which he was faarrr better than he was the next year when Melo was hurt. But who Am I to stand in The way of Jowles melo bashing

    To quote Marlo Stanfield, “You want it one way, but it’s the other way.”

    2017 Point Guards available:
    Derrick Rose
    Kyle Lowry
    Chris Paul
    Jrue Holliday
    Rajon Rondo
    Jeff Teague
    George Hill
    Brandon Jennings
    Patty Mills

    Rose at 3/75 is a good deal but if he’s going to max out it’s not worth it given how many good PGs are available next year. One thing to consider – I think Zach Lowe’s mentioned it before – is that so many teams spent this past offseason that not a lot are going to have sufficient cap room this offseason (this may be especially true if the cap only goes to something like 102 instead of 107). This means that there may not be a ton of bidders on these players so someone like Jrue Holliday won’t get 30M/year.

    I like Rose but obviously it’s insane to extend him now given a good 10-game stretch.

    One other thing I wanted to mention is that I’ve given Phil a really hard time during his tenure, usually for good reasons. But the signing of Hernangomez/O’Quinn/Kuz at their price points were such good values that they offset whatever awaits with the bigger deals. This is usually the type of value that comes from rookie contracts but the team got creative and got great deals for their bench given limited resources – well done.

    There’s a really interesting player in college right now named Kyle Kuzma. He’s like two weeks older than KP but he’s a 6’9″ forward at Utah who averages 22, 14, and 5 per 40. Draft experts are saying he should be available in the 2nd round and I think he’ll develop into a more athletic Boris Diaw. That’s a guy I’d like to see us draft this year. Only thing is his scoring efficiency is in the .530s for his TS%, but I like him a lot as a prospect.

    My biggest hope in the draft is that Harry Giles falls to us in the draft and we snatch him up. I have never seen a kid at 17 years old snatch up so many rebounds. I think he averaged 16 per 40 (5OREB/40) in FIBA play that summer. He hasn’t played yet this season for Duke and I’ve seen him as low as 13th on draft boards.

    @280 – i’ve been saying similar things… i don’t think it quite offsets everything with the LT and noah deals.. and to an extent the rolo/rose deal… but certainly lessens the sting from them… phil does deserve kudos for those…

    Ex Knick Update:

    Galloway bricks potential game winner.

    Timmy airballs potential game winner.

    Goodnight!

    i always thought giles was a bit overrated… knee injuries aside…

    taking a quick peek at the draft… it really behooves us to get somewhere in the lottery… the draft’s strength is actually at SF… jackson, isaacson, tatum and anouby are all going to be players at the next level… the pg’s like in draft’s past are going to be a little iffy although fultz will definitely be good and probably fox and ball also….

    if we fall in the 10-13 range i’m sure we’ll have the opportunity to grab a decent player… it kind of falls off after that…..

    You have been A1 all day with your statistical analysis lol.

    bruh is basketball 5 on 5 or what

    I’m still on my Josh Hart for round 2 campaign. His game is like a less athletic Dwayne Wade.

    Yeah Grant got to start tonight and turned in another great performance. One for seven from the field with one whole assist.

    Embiid had an off game I see (5-15 FG).

    Wow, the Hawks are free falling. Would have never thought we’d be up 3 games on them right now.

    Wow, Horford misses a layup at the buzzer that would have won the game for Boston.

    I feel SO bad for Celtics fans…

    lol if Marcus Smart hadn’t flopped he could have tipped it in. He was right under the basket.

    They should have let him go for 81

    Unfortunately they were up by 40 at that point

    Ah, that’s why it was a historic amount, that he did it in so few minutes. I saw a headline and I was confused as to how 60 points would be “historic”.

    I wonder if someone will score 101 some day. The 3 makes it more possible, right?

    Maybe KP?

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