Knicks Morning News (2016.12.22)

  • [ESPN] Thursday’s Knicks News: Knicks developing their own Big 3
    (Thursday, December 22, 2016 4:43:14 AM)

    Thursday’s Knicks News: Knicks developing their own Big 3

  • [ESPN] Former coach Karl lambasts Melo in new book
    (Thursday, December 22, 2016 4:33:45 AM)

    Former coach Karl lambasts Melo in new book

  • [ESPN] Derrick Rose: ‘We’re going to bring some Knicks fans back’
    (Thursday, December 22, 2016 12:34:14 AM)

    Derrick Rose: ‘We’re going to bring some Knicks fans back’

  • [ESPN] Report: Owners pass new labor deal; players up
    (Wednesday, December 21, 2016 4:47:09 PM)

    Report: Owners pass new labor deal; players up

  • [ESPN] This is the Knicks team Phil Jackson envisioned
    (Wednesday, December 21, 2016 12:35:49 PM)

    This is the Knicks team Phil Jackson envisioned

  • [NYDN] How far can the Knicks’ new Big 3 take the franchise? We ask them
    (Wednesday, December 21, 2016 7:26:18 PM)

    The Knicks are undeniably bringing a more exciting brand of basketball to the Garden these days.

  • [NYDN] Knicks’ Derrick Rose says he wants no part of the All-Star Game
    (Wednesday, December 21, 2016 11:04:12 AM)

    Derrick Rose is happy to be appreciated for who he is today — not who he was five years ago.

  • [NY Newsday] Derrick Rose wants to reward Knicks fans
    (Wednesday, December 21, 2016 8:04:16 PM)

    Derrick Rose feels appreciated by Knicks’ fans and believes some have and more will jump on this team’s bandwagon. Rose wants to make the playoffs for all of them.

  • [NYTimes] Keeping Score: Led by Rockets, N.B.A. Is Shooting Even More 3-Pointers
    (Wednesday, December 21, 2016 6:31:03 PM)

    Three teams are on a pace to break the record for 3-pointers attempted per game in a season, and one of them is the Nets.

  • [NYTimes] On Pro Basketball: Joakim Noah Gives Knicks Hope After Disappointing Start
    (Wednesday, December 21, 2016 9:01:17 PM)

    The center, who signed a four-year, $72 million deal over the summer but is averaging only 4.7 points in 21.5 minutes a game, showed promising signs on Tuesday.

  • [NYTimes] Tragedy Made Steve Kerr See the World Beyond the Court
    (Thursday, December 22, 2016 10:01:03 AM)

    The Golden State Warriors coach draws from the assassination of his father to make sense of a complicated world.

  • [SNY Knicks] Owners approve new NBA labor deal; players to vote Friday
    (Wednesday, December 21, 2016 10:10:00 PM)

    A new labor deal in the NBA is on the verge of being finalized, after owners voted Wednesday to approve a proposed seven-year collective bargaining agreement that was tentatively agreed to last week.

  • [SNY Knicks] Rose helped key Knicks’ comeback win over Pacers
    (Wednesday, December 21, 2016 12:15:28 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony might have stolen the show with his explosive fourth quarter by dropping bombs from long range, but it was Rose who made the biggest splash against the Pacers.

  • [SNY Knicks] Westchester Knicks trade Cleanthony Early in deal for Courtney Fells
    (Wednesday, December 21, 2016 11:55:04 AM)

    The Westchester Knicks have traded forward Cleanthony Early in a deal for Courtney Fells.

  • [SNY Knicks] Porzingis’ salary increases with new CBA
    (Wednesday, December 21, 2016 9:30:55 AM)

    The NBA’s new collective bargaining agreement will increase Kristaps Porzingis’ salary on the last two years of his rookie deal, along with potentially lining him up for a massive max contract in 2019.

  • [SNY Knicks] Ndour, Plumlee recalled from Westchester
    (Wednesday, December 21, 2016 10:00:26 AM)

    The New York Knicks have recalled center Marshall Plumlee and forward Maurice Ndour from Westchester.

  • [NYPost] George Karl rips ‘user’ Carmelo Anthony in upcoming book
    (Wednesday, December 21, 2016 9:15:58 PM)

    Former Nuggets coach George Karl took a series of personal shots at Carmelo Anthony in an upcoming memoir, claiming Anthony was “a conundrum,’’ a user, not a leader and unwilling to share “the spotlight’’ or play defense during their six years together. Karl also took aim in “Furious George’’ at former Nuggets, and ex-Knicks, J.R….

  • [NYPost] Don’t look now: Knicks developing their own Big 3
    (Wednesday, December 21, 2016 4:43:10 PM)

    OK, they’re not Larry Bird, Kevin McHale and Robert Parish or LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh for that matter. But the potential and abilities of the Knicks’ Big 3 alignment of Carmelo Anthony, Derrick Rose and Kristaps Porzingis are taking shape, coming into focus. And with them, so are the Knicks. And with…

  • [NYPost] Amy Schumer and Chris Rock turn out for the Knicks
    (Wednesday, December 21, 2016 9:23:33 AM)

    Lots of laughs at MSG last night, and this time they didn't weren't at the Knicks' expense.

  • [NYPost] Courtney Lee is the key to unlocking Knicks’ 3-point potential
    (Wednesday, December 21, 2016 9:07:51 AM)

    The Knicks beat the Pacers on Tuesday at the Garden with their 3-point shooting – something that should be, but isn’t yet, part of their team identity. The Knicks shot 56.5 percent from 3-point land: 13-of-23. Carmelo Anthony shot 7-of-11. Kristaps Porzingis was 4-of-7. Neither of those two Knicks stars is the team’s best 3-point…

  • [NYPost] Inside the Knicks’ unsolvable Derrick Rose problem
    (Wednesday, December 21, 2016 7:20:25 AM)

    Tom Thibodeau never came close to becoming the Knicks coach, even as he was the highest-profile free-agent coach not coaching last year. He wound up in Minnesota, and it’s been fun seeing him and his ultra-Type-A personality adjust to the Timberwolves, composed of some of the league’s most talented (and headstrong) youngsters. Thibodeau never worked…

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    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    140 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2016.12.22)”

    1. From yesterday @BrianCronin

      …the best option under the very specific set of self-imposed limitations that the Knicks have placed upon themselves might be to just re-sign Rose. …I’m just saying that of their likely options, this one might be their best one.

      I’m glad there are rational people out there. The fantasies that some people have are delusional. We’re not getting Curry, CP3, Westbrook or any of the other amazing point guards out there and we’re not snagging a top-10 lottery pick. Resigning Rose but trying to do so with a reasonable contract may be the best we can hope for.

    2. I think the only theoretically difference making PG that might be in the Knicks’ price range is Jrue Holiday. Like Rose he comes with a bunch of injury issues including a stress fracture/reaction in his right leg that cost him parts of 2 seasons and required surgery, as well as an orbital wall fracture. He’s averaged only 46 games played over the last 3 seasons, although he’s played well on both sides of the ball when healthy.

      It’s hard to know for sure without knowing the details of the CBA, but my guess is if we renounce both Rose and Jennings, we might have around $20-22MM in space. I think it would be relatively easy to trade either Kuzminskas ($3MM) and/or O’Quinn ($4MM) to clear up a little more, but some of that will be taken up by the 1st round pick cap hold (prob ~2MM-2.5MM depending on what pick we get?). So maybe we can get to say $25MM but we’d probably have to give up a rotation player as well as renounce Jennings. But at $25MM, we can definitely say goodbye to any chance of signing CP3, Curry, or Lowry.

      Holiday is clearly a better shooter and defender than Rose. He’s not as good getting to the basket, which is a skill this team desperately needs, especially as Melo continues turning into a jump shooter. But still – if he is cleared from his leg injury, perhaps trying to sign him and then drafting an attacking PG would be a reasonable strategy. But it’s not clear to me that he would necessarily want to come here or that the Pels wouldn’t just max him out (or at least offer the same starting salary but with 7.5% raises and an extra year, which is always the problem in free agency). He may see the writing on the wall that he is not sniffing the 2nd round of the playoffs in the western conference. Spurs, Houston, GS, and Clips look pretty locked in as the top 4 there at least for the next couple years, and maybe if we offer a package deal bringing his brother back on the EB, he might take a little bit of a discount.

    3. Maybe George Hill is gettable at $25MM (especially since the Jazz have to pay Gordon Hayward), but it seems unlikely they would let him go. He seems to like it there.

      Other possibilities, talked about before — Darren Collison maybe will get MLE-type money which would be pretty easy, say start right at $8.5MM, leaving us (without trading Kuz or KOQ) around $12MM left. we could maybe give someone like Ian Clark half that and bring Jennings back with the other half. That seems pretty uninspiring but at least we would not have huge contracts on the books and would not have to trade away any rotation players. But the sum of Collison + Clark + Jennings is probably less than Rose + Jennings or Holiday + someone else.

    4. the sum of Collison + Clark + Jennings is probably less than Rose + Jennings or Holiday + someone else.

      And you want that? I don’t. I want to bring both Rose and Jennings back. I just want them to play more defense.

    5. I don’t want Collison + Jennings + Clark – just saying that it’s a plausible / reasonable alternative. I think ultimately we will re-sign Rose and Jennings and pin our hopes on chemistry + development of current players + draft picks + cap exceptions to improve over the next couple years.

      I would be really upset if we give Rose anything more than 3 years. At the very least he should expire when Noah and Lee expire. The actual $ amount of Rose’s contract probably doesn’t matter that much since we will likely be operating as an over-the-cap team anyway, at which point it really only becomes a matter of Dolan’s $. If it is a short enough contract and expires with Noah and Lee (or earlier), then it doesn’t take away from future flexibility so much.

    6. The Knicks are not letting go of Derrick Rose, guys. The new CBA means anybody who will be seen as an upgrade will be expensive as hell, and you can bet that Derrick Rose is going to improve as the season grows longer. It’s going to be an 8 figure overpay, but I’m betting he gets a contract similar to what Dwight Howard got from Atlanta this summer. If we offer him a deal longer than 3 years that would suck but it wouldn’t be too surprising. I think he gets 4 years, $87M with a player option on the 4th year.

      I just want us to land Shamorie Ponds somehow. Shamorie Ponds and Luke Kennard, please.

    7. My biggest (albeit not my only) concern with Rose is his proneness to injury. Do we really want to commit major years to another player who is almost guaranteed to miss 10-15 games a season as he ages?

    8. Holiday is clearly a better shooter and defender than Rose. He’s not as good getting to the basket, which is a skill this team desperately needs, especially as Melo continues turning into a jump shooter. But still – if he is cleared from his leg injury, perhaps trying to sign him and then drafting an attacking PG would be a reasonable strategy.

      Holiday’s got a .062 WS/48, .3VORP, .509 TS% which are close to his career average. The only 1 guard out there who’s relatively young and putting up great #’s is Patty Mills, but it’s almost a certainty Spurs re-sign him especially after he re-signed with them at a discount a few years ago.

      This just highlights how difficult it is to nab a quality young player in free agency and why you have to be in the draft. There is a player who’s a better defender than Rose, shoots a higher percentage at the rim than Rose, has got a higher career FTr than Rose, and who’s got the same VORP and WS/48 as Rose. His #’s as a starter for the NYK were actually better than Rose’s. His name is Jerian Grant who is now on a team with 5 1 guards and a lousy coach. Wouldn’t you have liked to have watched him in Hornacek’s offense since his game is similar to that of 28yo Rose? Phil’s path will just lead to more dumb decisions this summer.

    9. let’s do 4 years 87MM with a TEAM option on year 4, or a straight 3 years even at a slightly higher AAV, ie. the 3 years $70-75MM that had been discussed before.

      I think he would have a very difficult time getting anything much better than that on the open market. I haven’t taken the time to look at who else might be interested and what cap space they might have, but cap space is going to be a lot tighter this summer.

      btw – his December splits – TS 56.8, Net rating +7.9, 22/4.6/4.4 per 36.

    10. There is a player who’s a better defender than Rose, shoots a higher percentage at the rim than Rose, has got a higher career FTr than Rose, and who’s got the same VORP and WS/48 as Rose. His #’s as a starter for the NYK were actually better than Rose’s. His name is Jerian Grant who is now on a team with 5 1 guards and a lousy coach. Wouldn’t you have liked to have watched him in Hornacek’s offense since his game is similar to 28yo Rose? Phil’s path will just lead to more dumb decisions this summer.

      Holy sh*t can we stop with Jerian Grant already? He has a 43.6 TS, which seems like maybe small sample size since he can’t get minutes, until you realize he had a TS of 47 last year. He’s 24 years old. In zero ways is he similar to Derrick Rose, unless you’re just talking about bad 3 point shooting.

    11. btw – his December splits – TS 56.8, Net rating +7.9, 22/4.6/4.4 per 36.

      You want to extend Rose for 22 mil for 4 years because he’s scored fairly well in the 6 out of 10 games he’s played for the Knicks in December?

    12. Derrick Rose is going to put up good numbers this year. I think he can be as good as Jeremy Lin was for us, and that would be great because the Knicks were better when we ran the offense through Lin (and we’re better when we run the offense through Rose). Just running a quick comparison, Lin was a better passer and got more steals, but was also good for 2 more turnovers and about twice as many fouls per 36. Lin scored at a much more efficient rate but I think Rose is trending up towards Lin’s .552 from that season. Rose beats Lin in 2P% and FT%, but the difference is in Lin’s 32% from deep compared to Rose’s 23% (and that has to improve considering it’s his worse since his rookie year).

      The funny thing about Rose is he’s theoretically unstoppable. There’s nobody who can actually guard him and make him uncomfortable because he’s simply faster than everyone, but he makes 3-4 mental mistakes a game that lead to the turnovers and ill-advised jumpers. Those kill his efficiency stats but I think he’s done bricking easy lay ups. I’m not sure he’s done with the dumb passes, but one thing at a time.

    13. So I asked this before but got like one reply from Silky Johnson.

      For the Rose detractors, how good would he have to be for you to be in favor of re-signing him?(If at all) Say 3-4 years at 20 mill per.

      Would you want to bring this team back if we make the ECF?

    14. George Hill and Jrue Holiday have missed more games due to injury since the start of 2014/15 than Rose. I’m not buying the injury argument being tilted in their favor versus Rose. The only reason to sign them is if you prefer their performance on the floor, which is obviously valid.

      Re: Jerian Grant

      He fucking sucks.

    15. George Hill played in 11 games this season and is 2 years older than Derrick Rose. Jrue Holiday played in 15 games this season and is 2 years younger than Rose. He’s also putting up similar numbers.

    16. btw – his December splits – TS 56.8, Net rating +7.9, 22/4.6/4.4 per 36.

      Re: Jerian Grant He fucking sucks.

      Grant’s #’s as a Knick starter are similar to those and he didn’t have Melo and KP during those games. Grant’s .315 FTr in his rookie year is only slightly less than Rose’s FTr in his MVP year. Grant’s shooting 62% at-the-rim this season compared to Rose’s 56%. He’s a much better defender than Rose. I’d rather pay him 2m and bet he’d give similar production to Rose (since they play a similar game) than give Rose a 4-year deal. And you know rookie 1s have been known to improve.

    17. Anybody see what Karl had to say about Melo and Kenyon Martin? “All that money and no father to show them how to act like a man.” Wow. And of course ESPN didn’t mention that in their article (because Melo is a Knick) but they were sure to bring up that Karl called Melo a “user of people” and that Melo didn’t commit to defense nor did he want to share the spotlight. He also said JR Smith had a “distracting posse.”

      Sometimes I wonder if “playing basketball the right way” means “playing basketball the white way” when some of these guys bring it up. Despite Karl’s comments on how Anthony and the Nuggets weren’t winners Melo never missed the playoffs in Denver and the one year he had a cohesive team they went to the conference finals and lost to the eventual champions. Not everybody gets a championship ring but those Nuggets were a successful bunch that could have used a better coach to bring out their strengths. I’m pretty upset with Karl’s word choice but I’m not surprised with Karl’s comments at all. Melo and JR Smith are more team oriented players today than they were when Karl coached them, and that’s an indictment on Karl more than anybody else.

    18. “Anybody see what Karl had to say about Melo and Kenyon Martin?”
      Or that he called JR Smith’s entourage his “posse?”

    19. For the Rose detractors, how good would he have to be for you to be in favor of re-signing him?(If at all) Say 3-4 years at 20 mill per.

      Would you want to bring this team back if we make the ECF?

      Even when you take into account the increased cap that’s still a pretty hefty price. He’d have to be way better than he’s shown so far. Like unrecognizably so. If you want an exact number I’d say .150 WS48, which would probably require .50 or so extra TS% points among a few other things. It’s a difficult question for me to answer because trying to blow this whole thing up is so obviously the correct course of action but I guess in reality it ain’t gonna happen.

      As for the ECFs, I’m inclined to say yes with the caveat that it would depend on the circumstances. If, for example, a bunch of better teams (Toronto, Boston, Charlotte) all have injuries and we don’t so we sneak in that way, we shouldn’t just assume that’s indicative of a whole lot. “Making the ECFs” is an arbitrary evaluative measure.

    20. JR Smith had a father who was very involved in his upbringing, and JR Smith is a huge fucking idiot.

      There’s a reason George Karl’s former players all hate him.

    21. George Karl is such a blowhard. I don’t think anyone really cares what he has to say anymore. Hope not anyway.

    22. It is way, way too early to talk about signing Rose.
      I like the team dynamic when he is playing, but his numbers are average and we are still early enough in the season to be wondering how his body will hold up.
      He needs to play a full season and his knees need to remain healthy before you consider signing him to a big deal.
      Common sense says you need to wait.
      Further, he isn’t going to sign now either because he knows it discounts his potential.
      Further, there isn’t a PG worth having that will leave where they are.

      Right now, let’s see if Rose continues to improve and his health holds.
      Let’s hope Noah finally gets into the flow of this team and becomes a contributor.
      Let’s watch KP develop.
      Let’s watch Melo adapt to a team with a unicorn and a former MVP.
      This could be a pretty special run; it could tank.
      Also, I really like our coach. No drama. Just smart professional behavior and solid rotations.

    23. Sometimes I wonder if “playing basketball the right way” means “playing basketball the white way” when some of these guys bring it up.

      Only if you think being unselfish, playing defense are “white” traits. But then that would mean guys like Kawhi Leonard, Chris Paul, and Lebron James are white.

    24. I love how the word “posse” has automatically become a racist word when it has been used for decades to describe player entourages throughout the league. Congratulations to Lebron and ESPN, you managed to twist image to serve their PR ends.

    25. Only if you think being unselfish, playing defense are “white” traits.

      I think you missed his point.

      that’s an indictment on Karl more than anybody else.

      Agreed.

    26. @18

      I also think unforeseen circumstances hurt the Nuggets too. The year Karl went out to get treatment for his throat cancer they fell off after the all star break when they were the number 2 team at the time. That team had a great cance to make it back to WCS or further and who knows what would have happen. Then again they could have very well had a similar outcome as the eventually had but I doubt it.

      Anyway Karl is who he is and will not change. Carmelo is an easy target. Now that the media and players have more weight in the all star voting of starters it is a good chance that he may not get in unless he continues what he has been doing the last two games.

    27. taking into account that a complete teardown is and was never going to happen, what is the best non-Jerian Grant alternative to re-signing Rose?

      You want to extend Rose for 22 mil for 4 years because he’s scored fairly well in the 6 out of 10 games he’s played for the Knicks in December?

      first of all i said 22M per over 4 years with a 4th year team option which is not the same thing.

      second – it is clear as day that the Knicks are a much better team with him on the court than without him. if you don’t want to resign him, that’s fine. just don’t be like congressional republicans and complain without any viable/realistic alternative.

    28. Re: Karl, my point is that he goes on to use inflammatory words and terms after he attacks Melo as a basketball player. Saying Melo is selfish and didn’t play defense is one thing. It becomes something way different when you say his two fundamental problems were the amount of money he had and the absence of his father in his life. That’s how you take it too far.

    29. Meanwhile, we couldn’t ask the Eastern Conference to break any better than it has so far.

      Last night, the Hawks lost to the Wolves, the Grizz beat the Pistons, and the Wiz beat the Bulls. All 3 of those teams have regressed pretty badly after strong starts, none are currently over .500.

      This is the year to make hay in the East, only Cleveland and Toronto have separated themselves from the pack.

    30. Re: The offseason

      The knicks lose more money than expected with the new changes to the cba because KP’s salary will increase.

    31. Re-signing Rose to a 4-year 90 million deal and keeping this core intact is not an incredibly bad idea overall… it’s just that if that happens, I would have to come to terms to the fact that at least 4 more years would go by for the Knicks with no chance of a title.

      I’ve endured 25 years of this bullshit already, 4 more won’t kill me, right?

      in a more serious note, I think the Knicks are putting themselves in a very dangerous situation for the coming years… this team is obviously not good enough to beat the top 3 or 4 in the league, but it’s just good enough to be right under them if everything turns right… so yeah, it seems like a very knicksian position to be in the first place.

    32. Yeah, maybe I don’t have the right ambition or something, but I’d be pretty excited if the Knicks put themselves in a position to be right below the true title contenders over the next few years.

      At that point you’re essentially the Raptors and one player away from having a real shot at a title. Even that outcome seems very optimistic right now unless Noah can bring it consistently.

    33. @36

      it’s a way of seeing things, not an issue.

      I just can’t be satisfied with a 3rd seed and an honorable exit in the EC semi-finals, that’s the way I see it.

    34. My point is Karl made it a racial issue when he brought up the way Kenyon Martin and Carmelo Anthony were raised.

    35. btw, regardless of their intentions, I just wish Karl, Phil and all the other white rich dudes just stopped talking about young black men in the NBA.

      ya know, just shut your mouth for once, you are not the center of the universe.

    36. @35 there is absolutely nothing Knicksy about them being in the 2nd tier of the league and a persistent ECS or possible ECF team for 4 years. Nothing Knicksy at all about that. May not be what we are ultimately looking for but it’s not what we have had over the last 17 years.

      Re: tanking vs low ceiling my instinct is that it’s easier to get better when you’re good than it is to get great when you’re bad. I am of the mind that KP’s long term mental development benefits more with having meaningful games and veterans near by. You go this route through is 24 yo season and see if something unexpected pops up like Noah / Rose improvement, Willy H making a leap, a trade for a star or a lucky mid round draft pick that pans out. And you roll the dice and we get some playoff ball.

    37. The Knicks and Derrick Rose will be together until at least 2020. What we should be focused on is drafting his replacement.

    38. Anybody see what Karl had to say about Melo and Kenyon Martin? “All that money and no father to show them how to act like a man.” Wow. And of course ESPN didn’t mention that in their article (because Melo is a Knick) but they were sure to bring up that Karl called Melo a “user of people” and that Melo didn’t commit to defense nor did he want to share the spotlight. He also said JR Smith had a “distracting posse.”

      R A C I S T

    39. I just wish Karl, Phil and all the other white rich dudes just stopped talking about young black men in the NBA.

      White rich dudes think they have all the answers and love to fix people

    40. @41

      I disagree, the Knicks have been in a very similar position for the entirety of the nineties.

      It’s just my way of seeing things, I loved watching the Knicks be good throughout the nineties, but I could never be truly satisfied with not winning a title… of course it was better than the shit show this franchise became right after, but it’s the way I see it.

      and again, I’ve said this many times, with Porzingis in this roster it would be a 1-year tank to get an elite PG prospect in this draft and be competitive right after, not a Philadelphia situation… would I rather be in the position the Knicks are today, or facing a 5-year tank project? Of course the first one.

      but would I rather tank for 1-year then rebuild around possibly two legit stars, or be in the situation the Knicks are right now?

    41. So the only road to happiness is in drafting or somehow getting a LeBron or Steph? Not a realistic expectation. If in two years, we have Rose/Lee/Melo/KP/Noah (He has a great chance of improving, and he has, but whatever), with a good bench of Jennings, goodLance, and with developing good rotation players Billy, Baker, Kuz, Chasson, and some others, that can take us to the third round. Especially with Hornacek locked in.

      That’s watchable NBA playoff basketball. Ill take that. And if we trade or sign a top tier FA like Davis/KAT/AnyyoungPG, that can take us further than that.

      Because if its ringorbust, then you gotta tank for years, hope that you draft the KAT or whoever of a year, and that he’ll actually stay… and be mentally/physically developed in a losing culture… eh, I’d rather not.

    42. Maybe it’s just time to acknowledge that contending for a title is just not for us. The best we’re ever going to get is an occasional first round playoff win, maybe a trip to the conference finals someday if a true miracle happens. But deep runs in the playoffs and championships are for other fans, not Knick fans. Some posters here seem to have already accepted this.

    43. Right now the East breaks down like this:

      1. Contenders- Raptors, Cavs
      2. Good teams- Celtics, Hornets, Bucks
      3. Not bad teams-Knicks, Bulls, Pistons, Wizards, Hawks, Pacers
      4. the Heat
      5. Bad teams-Magic, Nets, Sixers

      I think the Heat have been a bit unlucky results wise, and they’ve had injury problems, but at full strength I’d put them in the not bad tier. Is this where you want to be the next 3 years? And this is a year where things are breaking well for us. We have some interesting young players, but 4/5 of our starters are going to be getting worse going forward.

    44. So you watched he Knicks in the 90s, saw them get to the finals twice, lose to Michael freakin Jordan, Olajuwon, etc, and be one of the two or three talked about teams, play gritty NY defense, have interestingly scrappy players left and right (Starks! Oak! Mason!)… and that was a BAD thing?????

    45. I disagree completely that contending is not for us, but well, that’s my way of seeing things. Contending was not for GSW or Cleveland fans for much longer than the Knicks, and look where they are now.

      The Pistons won a championship without megastars like LeBron or Curry, the Mavericks won a championship with Nowitzki and a solid team around him… there’s no reason why KP couldn’t develop into a Dirk type player and be able to lead a contender.

      but to do that, I think he needs more help and the best way to find another star to pair up with him is the draft.

      yes, we do have Melo, Rose, Noah, Willy, Lee and everyone else… but if we tanked one year, we would still have Melo, Noah, Willy, Lee and everyone else except Rose and maybe Jennings, and would have a legit potential superstar as our PG for the future + one entire year to develop the younger guys and give them relevant playing time.

      that is clearly a better situation in my opinion.

    46. @49

      no, I loved it, and I said that in one of my posts.

      but I don’t see this current team being on that level, and I would feel even better about those teams if they won a title.

    47. What the hell makes people think this team is capable of an ECF run sometime in the future when it’s even older than it is now?

    48. @53

      well, not really, quite the opposite actually.

      people think this team is capable of ECF because they believe this team is better than it has shown performance-wise, because of statistics, optimism or the way they analyze and watch basketball.

      people like me, who believe a 1-year tank was the best option, see this team as the performance it has shown or worse, and the NBA as a superstar league where you either have a top tier talent team, or you have no chance… so tanking is the cheapest and most reliable way to find stars, like the Cavs, Spurs, Warriors, Clippers and other teams in the past did.

    49. Reasonable people can disagree on whether it makes more sense to shoot for a low chance of becoming a contender or a better chance of being a 45-50 win type team. But I don’t see how either of these goals fits with paying Derrick Rose like he’s going to be an above average player from 2017-2020. He’s playing better than last year, but that’s damning with faint praise. He’s still a point guard averaging 5.2 ast 2.9 TOs, 0.8 Stls and 51.8 TS. He’s a higher than average injury risk and does not have a game likely to age well, because he’s not big and doesn’t shoot well. I can understand not waiting for Godot, but I’m amazed that at least half this board seems okay with paying a player like this 85/4 or anywhere close.

    50. I love how the word “posse” has automatically become a racist word when it has been used for decades to describe player entourages throughout the league. Congratulations to Lebron and ESPN, you managed to twist image to serve their PR ends.

      I don’t want to offend anyone but it becomes difficult to have real dialog about such topics. I’ll try and preface this by saying I’m a middle-aged white male.

      It seems to me that these other middle-aged and older white guys are trying to sound somewhat hip or cool by using terms that they’ve heard used by their much younger and blacker players. It also seems that these younger and blacker players get offended when those words are used by their middle-aged white coaches/GMs. I’ve heard the phrase used a lot. The same can be said about the N-word. So is there now language that only an urban (yeah, a euphemism for black) male may use? When did we decide there was such a thing?

      If we now have “banned” words, is there somewhere that they are listed so that us ignoramasses can refer to them and cross the words out of our vocabularies? And if a word is banned, shouldn’t the punishment be the same across the board for everyone? I think so.

    51. the problem with resigning rose to a 4 year deal is that you could get the same type of production from just about any other pg on the market for considerably less…. and in terms of wins and losses will probably turn out roughly the same… you don’t have to go very far for one because you have that already in brandon jennings…. and the hope is that the 1st rd pick brings in similar production to jennings also…

      the question is can the 1st rd pick outperform rose for the next 4 years? yes absolutely that is a safe assumption… jerian grant basically has the same ws48 and he wasn’t that great of a prospect to begin with… and the idea is that they’ll eventually get it up to around .100…. a level rose probably has no shot of attaining…. we have to hope for that because getting .100 out of the pg spot is going to be difficult through FA or trades… we are not getting that by resigning rose….

      we are probably going to be a 44 win team next year with or without rose… if we go jennings and draft pick at pg… we will most likely still be a 44 win team… the problem is in 2019 and 2020… if we want any shot at being a 50 win team we have to keep some space open to get us over that hump…

    52. @58

      they did beat the Cavaliers once while the Knicks got smashed twice, and played really close with San Antonio and Cleveland in their losses… if Jabari Parker didn’t decide to be a star in the wrong play, they would have a 2-1 record over Cleveland.

      plus their best player is 22 and a legit superstar, and they have numerous promising young players who have higher ceilings than Noah or Rose at this point.

      the Knicks might be better now, but if you asked me which roster I would rather have, I’d say the Bucks.

    53. How are the 13-14 Bucks a better team than the Knicks again?

      They have one of the 10 best players in the NBA, a better offense and a better defense.

    54. Just looking at Derrick Rose’s splits, he had a sub .500 TS% in October, a .506 TS% in November, and in December he’s at a .568 TS%. So yes, the Knicks have been a better team with Derrick Rose on the court in December and he seems to be more or less done with the 7-17 shooting nights. Would anybody argue that a team with December Derrick Rose and this roster is not a good team in the Eastern Conference? Whether he can keep that up is another story, but he’s been trending upwards.

    55. My point is Karl made it a racial issue when he brought up the way Kenyon Martin and Carmelo Anthony were raised.

      What was racial about the point Karl made? The fact that he called them primadonnas or the fact that he pointed to the fact that they had no fathers? I had no idea either were exclusive to a race.

    56. Rose had a 9-18 against Indiana and 4-12 against Miami, how is that so different from 7-17?

      the difference is that he’s finally shooting less 3’s and shooting more free throws, which is bound to make him a more efficient shooter.

      if he can manage to keep that up without getting injured, two big question marks for me, then yes, this team is a decent team in eastern conference… right on the level of Boston Milwaukee Charlotte Chicago and Indiana.

    57. What I’m saying is that Bucks team is currently 9th in the league. Will that change? Probably because they’re smoking hot but they don’t even have a winning record. That has to count for something.

    58. I honestly don’t think that counts for anything, it’s been what, 27 games? a third of the season… the Bucks have also been missing Khris Middleton for the entire season, their best shooter and floor spacer, while the Knicks have had a fairly clean slate of injuries so far.

      the Knicks might even end up the season ahead of Milwaukee, I don’t know, but their roster seems better than ours in many ways.

    59. Just looking at Derrick Rose’s splits, he had a sub .500 TS% in October, a .506 TS% in November, and in December he’s at a .568 TS%.

      That’s one way to look at it. Here’s another:

      Rose TS%

      Games 1-10: 48.5

      Games 11-20: 54.2

      Games 21-24: 52.8

      Which way is Derrick Rose’s scoring efficiency trending?

    60. Will someone else pick up the baton and reiterate that casual racism is real? I don’t have the energy to explain things to white people right now.

    61. What was racial about the point Karl made? The fact that he called them primadonnas or the fact that he pointed to the fact that they had no fathers? I had no idea either were exclusive to a race.

      Ras1980 is back to tell you all about this post-racial world we live in!

      In today’s bit, he talks about how the dearth of father presence in black families is not and has never been used by white people to explain why black communities suffer more poverty, and thus higher crime, incarceration and drug abuse rates. Prove it isn’t so, liberals! Prove it didn’t happen!

    62. DRed, I cannot agree at all with your take on how the EC breaks out. It’s Cleveland and Toronto and then a long and low 2nd tier including ATL, NYK, BOS, CHA, MIL, WIZ, CHI, DET…
      I think the Knicks have a punchers chance against all with BOS, MIL, WIZ being the worst matchups and the Knicks being the favorite in a playoff series against the rest.

    63. Maybe it’s just time to acknowledge that contending for a title is just not for us. The best we’re ever going to get is an occasional first round playoff win, maybe a trip to the conference finals someday if a true miracle happens. But deep runs in the playoffs and championships are for other fans, not Knick fans. Some posters here seem to have already accepted this.

      I’m trying to imagine a world in which we are contending for a title in the next 2-3 years no matter what moves we make – in a league where team executives are actually having conversations about punting seasons because the Warriors and Cavs will win every year. So in that context, is it better to aim for 45-50 win seasons or…. or what I don’t since no one has a reasonable alternative.

      As of right now, there is only 1 extremely good team in the East – the Cavs. Toronto is good, but I sorta get the feeling their offense is going to regress. They have literally a whole team of players who are shooting out of their minds right now. Lowry is shooting 45% from 3 with a career 3P% of 38. Terrence Ross has an eFG of 59% with a career eFG of 52. And you sort of have to figure that Derozan isn’t suddenly Michael Jordan and that he’ll cool down too.

    64. That’s one way to look at it. Here’s another:

      Rose TS%

      Games 1-10: 48.5

      Games 11-20: 54.2

      Games 21-24: 52.8

      Which way is Derrick Rose’s scoring efficiency trending?

      I don’t like the way you’re “manipulating” these “stats” to make your point.

      Actually, Derrick Rose shoots better against WC teams than he does against the East: .545 vs .498 TS%! I think it’s imperative that we figure out how to improve his morale and leadership against in-conference rivals so he can reach the lofty heights of an above-average true shooting percentage.

      In fact, he’s got a meager .503 TS% in losses (vs. a ridiculously awesomely solidly below-average .530 in wins), so as the Knicks lose fewer games, we should expect to see Rose’s TS% increase.

    65. @71

      Frank, but how is that argument about Toronto relevant, and not relevant regarding the Knicks?

      Rose has a sub .500 ts% in his past two seasons, and now people are thinking it is normal for him to have a .568 in a limited set of games? when the best mark in his entire career is .550 6 years ago before all the injuries?

      Justin Holiday has a career ts% of .499, and he’s got a .542 so far in this season… why would that not regress also?

    66. Rose TS%

      Games 1-10: 48.5

      Games 11-20: 54.2

      Games 21-24: 52.8

      Which way is Derrick Rose’s scoring efficiency trending?

      Interesting method to divide 24 games into 10/10/4 splits.
      If you did 8/8/8 splits which seems more logical:

      Games 1-8 –> TS 50%
      Games 9-16 –> TS 48.5
      Games 17-24 –> TS 56.8

      If you did 6/6/6/6 splits:

      Games 1-6 –> TS 49.0
      Games 7-12 -> TS 51.1
      Games 13-18->TS 50
      Games 19-24 -> TS 55.2

      So I guess it’s possible he’s just been playing well in December, and might regress. Or that he’s getting his legs under him. I guess we’ll see.

    67. If you did 8/8/8 splits which seems more logical:

      What makes that logical?

    68. I’ve asked this before but to those who advocate bringing back Rose, what win total are you basing that on? I keep seeing 45-50 being thrown around, but what if we win 40-42? Can you seriously make the case that that’s a team that must be brought back, even if it involves making objectively stupid decisions (e.g. 4/80 for Rose)? What win total is low enough to make you reconsider?

      Again, it’s hard to see this team being better next year than this year if Rose is back. It’s actually hard to see it not being worse. We’re almost definitely losing one of Jennings or Holiday and we’re old as dirt. Melo might be completely useless next year, who knows.

    69. @73, nobody said his .568 TS% in December, which would be his career high, is the norm?

      @74, Thanks for helping me there. Both the month by month and 10/10/4 splits were misleading but the 8/8/8 and 6/6/6/6 splits are at least mathematically even (and relevant for a guy who missed the pre season). All I’m saying is the recent Derrick Rose makes the team better because he’s been playing better ball than he did early on when we were 3-6.

    70. Rose has a sub .500 ts% in his past two seasons, and now people are thinking it is normal for him to have a .568 in a limited set of games? when the best mark in his entire career is .550 6 years ago before all the injuries?

      Not to rehash this point as it was beaten to a bloody pulp in the preseason, but I just have a problem using injury-ridden seasons’ stats to predict healthy seasons going forward. I’m pretty sure most statisticians would agree with that.

      I would be perfectly happy with a USG of 25 and a TS of 53-54 for Rose, especially if the team continues to play so well with him on the court. He has the best net rating on the team, and has REALLY positive net rating over the last month or so. Since noblefacehumper loves bringing up Ray Felton (or was it JK47?), they ARE similar in that in 2012-13, even though Felton didn’t have a great TS, the TEAM’S offense was much better with him on the floor. And so it seems (at least so far) with Rose. That might be sort of important, since the NBA is not an individual TS% league.

    71. @79
      I just used ts% because you were talking about the Raptors players shooting efficiency… and we have no way to know if this one’s going to be a healthy season for Rose, since he’s already showing back problems.

      in the two seasons I mentioned he played 51 and 66 games, for teams that were pretty decent… do you realistically expect Rose to play more than 66 games this season?

    72. Derrick Rose shouldn’t be brought back because there’s no reasonable projection of his play that will make him worth the money. However, we’re not rebuilding anytime soon and Melo isn’t waiving that NTC so re-signing Rose is an inevitability. Chances are Derrick Rose, for the money he will command, is the best option we have. If his recent play is more of the real Derrick Rose then there’s no way we’ll do better than that.

    73. Again, it’s hard to see this team being better next year than this year if Rose is back. It’s actually hard to see it not being worse. We’re almost definitely losing one of Jennings or Holiday and we’re old as dirt. Melo might be completely useless next year, who knows.

      Not that I definitely disagree with you about future prospects, but you’re also the guy who thought Rose would be one of the worst players in the NBA this year. And by literally any measure you can come up with, other than “player whose narrative certain posters hate the most”, that’s just not true.

      And why do you think we’re “definitely” losing one of Jennings or Holiday?

    74. Derrick Rose shouldn’t be brought back because there’s no reasonable projection of his play that will make him worth the money. However, we’re not rebuilding anytime soon and Melo isn’t waiving that NTC so re-signing Rose is an inevitability. Chances are Derrick Rose, for the money he will command, is the best option we have. If his recent play is more of the real Derrick Rose then there’s no way we’ll do better than that.

      YES! We have to make sweet tasting lemonade out of a relative lemon situation, not nuke the entire lemon grove. And who knows, maybe that lemonade is better than you think it might be, since the nuclear waste is very likely to be worse than you think it will be.

    75. I would much rather sign Derrick Rose than Holiday or Hill. Rose is likely to fall apart around the same time Anthony does if not sooner. The short term fans who want to be entertained get another year probably of somewhat competitive basketball and don’t have to buy new jerseys, and then the team probably collapses and with the money locked into Rose, Noah and Melo, has no choice but to tank for a couple years. Melo expires in summer 2019, and hopefully we sign Rose to expire the same year Noah does, so in 2020/21, when KP is 25, we have a mountain of cap room.

      If you sign George Hill or Holiday, you have to sign him for more years and probably don’t fall apart quite as quickly. You also don’t get the name brand appeal Dolan loves and which keeps ticket sales up even as the team is mediocre/bad.

    76. @39 –

      My point is Karl made it a racial issue when he brought up the way Kenyon Martin and Carmelo Anthony were raised.

      I’m sorry Massive, but I call BS on that. That’s not a racial issue. When I coached Little League, I had a 10-year light up a cigarette in the dugout. I threw him out of the game and blamed his parent for the way he was raised. The kid was Italian, but that has nothing to do with anything. He was just raised by jerks. The world is filled with people who should not be raising children. You have to pass a test to drive a car, but there’s no test for parenthood.

    77. I’m trying to imagine a world in which we are contending for a title in the next 2-3 years no matter what moves we make

      This seems like a tacit admission that Phil Jackson is a failure. This is year 3 of the Phil Jackson experiment, and there is no sign that this team will be a contender by year 5 or year 6. So great, 5 or 6 years of treading water followed (hopefully) by doing the thing we should have just done in the first place, a complete rebuild.

      Thanks Phil.

    78. LOL. I think its funny people think I am white or that I am a believer in a “post-racial” world. I am simply trying to grasp the concept of why a coach’s criticisms of his former players is self-evidently racist. And the best proof I am receiving is that George Karl must be a racist because he is an old white man criticizing the behavior and upbringing of young black men. But this is asinine logic.

    79. @85 As an optimist I approve of this idea. The last few years of the Melo/lee/Noah/Rose contracts could be a great opportunity for tanking.

    80. This seems like a tacit admission that Phil Jackson is a failure. This is year 3 of the Phil Jackson experiment, and there is no sign that this team will be a contender by year 5 or year 6. So great, 5 or 6 years of treading water followed (hopefully) by doing the thing we should have just done in the first place, a complete rebuild.

      Thanks Phil.

      lol – by that standard then 26+ teams should be tacitly admitting they are failures too.

      A complete rebuild would have been fine, but not necessarily with a better outcome. The goal of a complete rebuild is to get the 1 or 2 true difference making draft picks as well as maybe some other solid role players going forward. It was not his intent, but we got the difference making player in KP (or at least he looks like he could be that guy), and we have all our picks going forward as well as a few young guys that look promising. It’s not the worst situation out there.

      (but I am not a fan of Phil’s overall body of work either – he got KP right and not THAT much else)

    81. What kills me is the double standard of logic I’m seeing on this board regarding Karl’s book. Already the case was made that Coach Karl must be a problematic person because so many of his players hate him. The underlying logic of such an argument is built upon the premise that the dislike of so many of Karl’s ex-players is an objective indicator of his personality and value as a coach. But when someone like Karl – who spent years coaching guys like Kenyon Martin, Carmelo Anthony, and JR Smith – writes his book detailing his own opinion of these guys as men and players its dismissed as the subjectively racist ramblings of a bitter, out of touch coach. Does his experience as their coach give him an insight too?

    82. Karl coached Anthony from January 2005 to February 2011, when Anthony’s demand for a trade was fulfilled and he joined the Knicks. Karl said the trade was “a sweet release for the coach and the team, like popping a blister.”

      man, fuck george karl…him and phil need to be locked in a room where they can sit around, jerk each other off and psycho anal-yze the hell out of each other…i’m sure karl was some kind of perfect human back when he was in his early twenties…

      yeah, reference rose getting 20 to 22 million per year…unless his iliopsoas (thanks doc :-) really craps out for the rest of the season – rose at 25 mil a year will be a bargain…just looking at last year’s new salaries will tell you that…pay to win has gone up – significantly…

      someone brought up consistency in the roster and organization yesterday…averaging 42 to 48 wins over the next 3 years doesn’t sound all that awful to me considering the last 15 years of repetitive losing seasons…

      aim low – they’re riding shetlands seems to be the phrase…we’re knick fans – happy endings just don’t normally come about…maybe we can get lucky though…

      more and more i’m thinking – leave the main components of the roster alone…we need to just ride this party bus til the wheels fall off (which we are one serious melo, rose or kp injury away from) over the next three years…

    83. LOL how is Phil Jackson a failure for not making this team an immediate contender? In what universe could he have worked a miracle which would have given us an opportunity to contend in the time frame his critics want? Do they realize we didn’t have any first round picks in 2014 and 2016 before he got here? Or that this team was pretty bereft of talent by the time he arrived? Even assuming that he managed to extract the maximum possible amount of value from Tyson Chandler, JR Smith and Iman Shumpert that every one grills him for – I doubt there was still the available talent to make us a better contender.

    84. LOL how is Phil Jackson a failure for not making this team an immediate contender?

      Nobody is saying he could have or should have made the Knicks an immediate contender. Come on now.

      The problem is, he’s not gradually making them a contender either. He’s locking them into perpetual mediocrity. And some people are treating this like it’s a great win, like it’s something we should be happy with. Which, uh, okay, sure.

    85. “It seems to me that these other middle-aged and older white guys are trying to sound somewhat hip or cool by using terms that they’ve heard used by their much younger and blacker players.”
      Guys like Jackson and Karl are not 60 year old accountants who have lived in lily white suburbs their entire lives and are trying to imitate black people they saw on TV. They have spent 50+ years in a sport that is predominantly black, they’ve played with, practiced with, coached with, roomed with, dined with, showered with, and been friends with black men and women for decades. The idea that they are trying to sound cool or hip by using words that they’ve heard black people use is absurd. It is a whole lot more likely that they are completely comfortable around people of all races and that they have been using these words for years because everyone in their circle — including they themselves — uses them.
      “Will someone else pick up the baton and reiterate that casual racism is real? I don’t have the energy to explain things to white people right now.”
      The real racism is taking a comment about someone not having a father and immediately concluding that he said it because the person that he was talking about is black.

    86. The problem is, he’s not gradually making them a contender either. He’s locking them into perpetual mediocrity. And some people are treating this like it’s a great win, like it’s something we should be happy with. Which, uh, okay, sure.

      I’m not happy about many of the signings we’ve made (Melo’s no trade clause, Noah and Lance), but its not as if Phil has mired us in cap hell or given away our draft picks. To me, its too soon to call Phil’s tenure a failure. That will be judged depending upon whether or not he can build a contending squad around KP moving forward.

    87. The only thing that sucks about not doing the one-year tank this year is how many awesome point guards there are in the top 5-10 of this year’s draft. But we have all known we weren’t doing a one-year tank from the moment we traded for Rose. Given the realistic options this summer (i.e. not signing CP3), I would say signing Rose to a 3-year extension would be worse than signing Jrue Holiday, George Hill, or Mills to a 4-year deal, but probably better than anything else we could do…

    88. A complete rebuild would have been fine, but not necessarily with a better outcome. The goal of a complete rebuild is to get the 1 or 2 true difference making draft picks as well as maybe some other solid role players going forward.It was not his intent, but we got the difference making player in KP (or at least he looks like he could be that guy), and we have all our picks going forward as well as a few young guys that look promising. It’s not the worst situation out there. (but I am not a fan of Phil’s overall body of work either – he got KP right and not THAT much else

      I would argue Phil got KP/Willy/Hornacek right but that’s sort of tempered by the fact that KP/Willy were really related to Clarence Gaines’ judgment. And, if you believe Charlie Rosen, Phil really did want Rambis as coach but was scared off by the media and fans.

      Where Phil erred (besides the NTC) was not embarking on a semi-rebuild after KP’s rookie year. Trading assets and using cap for 30+yo injury prone players is gross malpractice. We already had, as you say, a potential difference maker. Why not stay flexible for a year (which includes a possible tank in a draft rich with 1 guards) instead of committing and hamstringing our future for the next 6-7 years? For example, Thibs wants a veteran front-court player who will embrace his system? We could have looked to trade Lopez if Thibs offered his draft pick or a young guard like Tyus or Dunn. And are we sure that Gaines was right about Willy/KP but was way off about Grant?

      Hornacek said he believes a rebuild is not possible in NY or LA. Jared Dubin just had his Laker counterpart on one of his podcasts and he said the fans have embraced the younger team. So long as the club seems to be moving in the right direction, I think NY fans would have embraced a different course as well. But Phil -> Laker GM, nearer fiance, adoring fans/media, warmer clime. Make playoffs this year and bolt.

    89. I would argue Phil got KP/Willy/Hornacek right but that’s sort of tempered by the fact that KP/Willy were really related to Clarence Gaines’ judgment. And, if you believe Charlie Rosen, Phil really did want Rambis as coach but was scared off by the media and fans.

      Doesn’t the fact that Phil was smart enough to trust smart talent evaluation and read the media/fandom bode speak to his sound judgement? I mean, he did interview and choose Hornacek didn’t he?

    90. The idea that they are trying to sound cool or hip by using words that they’ve heard black people use is absurd. It is a whole lot more likely that they are completely comfortable around people of all races and that they have been using these words for years because everyone in their circle — including they themselves — uses them.

      Right. And to criticize them for being racist or making racist statements because they are using words they hear every day is exactly what is absurd. To even think that Jackson or Karl are racists because they refer to JR and LeBron’s friends as their “posse” is the real racist statement. They are using colloquial phrases. It’s also absurd to think that those two me, who rely on their ability to deal with black men, would want to offend piss black men off with racist statements. It makes no sense.

    91. Re the “posse” controversy:

      What’s missing in all of this is the actual reason LeBron was upset about Phil’s characterization of his friends as a “posse”. It wasn’t that his friends are African-American; it was that they’ve all worked really hard to leverage the opportunities provided by LeBron to build real businesses and describing them as a “posse” implicitly devalues that hard work.

      I have no information about JR’s friends either way. But it’s possible Karl’s use of “posse” to describe them is more fitting and therefore (somewhat) less offensive.

    92. Re: posse

      It’s the context. If Phil had said “LeBron and his posse are a bunch of cool guys, and I have a lot of respect for them” it prolly wouldn’t have been a problem. It was a problem because it came attached to a passive-aggressive insult, which made it sound a little bit like a whitesplain.

    93. @86, yeah but nobody would ever come out with a story on Grayson Allen saying his antics on the court are a result of the way he was brought up. Talking about minorities who come from single parent homes and then blaming their character flaws (and Melo has been a better person and leader ever since he left George Karl) on those societal issues is at the very least insensitive. Did you know that Melo lost his father at the age of 2 to cancer? George Karl’s comments are indefensible no matter how true you think they must be. He also blames Melo and K-Mart’s lack of a father for their transgressions and then blames JR Smith’s father for who JR Smith is. So which one is it? Did Melo and K-Mart need a dad like JR? Or were you just bringing up their lack of a father to be an asshole? Is George Karl even qualified to make that statement, and should a statement like that be made in passing?

      George Karl should not have made that comment specifically. All the ego talk is fine even if it’s dated, but don’t speaking about a black person’s lack of a father is ridiculous. It was off-color and unwarranted.

    94. So, let me get this straight: why can’t a rich white old man criticize a rich young black man? How does that become ‘racist’?

    95. I’m quite sure that both uses of the term “posse” were derogatory.

      What is wrong is that it got labeled as racist. Posse certainly infers that LeBron’s guys got their foot in the door, made money and have influence because of their friendship with him and no other reason. It doesn’t mean that they don’t work hard.

      I’m not sure what JR’s friends do, but I recall a certain Chris Smith getting an undeserved spot on the Knicks roster because of a certain relationship.

    96. George Karl should not have made that comment specifically. All the ego talk is fine even if it’s dated, but don’t speaking about a black person’s lack of a father is ridiculous. It was off-color and unwarranted.

      for the most part – i grew up without a dad (blessed to have an exemplary mom, and, uncle sam to help make me a man)…i forgot exactly where i heard it – but, in some ways i believe it’s very true:

      “you got to see a man, to be a man”

      too bad karl couldn’t have been a more inspiring “man” to emulate…

    97. @101 I thought Gaines was just their Euro guy.

      I also thought it came out that Hornacek interviewed with Phil like, way earlier in the summer, even before his plate of flyover Thai

    98. I thought Gaines was just their Euro guy.

      From NBA.com: NBA veteran joined Knicks as basketball advisor in summer 2014…Serves as talent evaluator on both the pro and college levels and is also involved in player personnel decisions.

    99. @106

      yeah but nobody would ever come out with a story on Grayson Allen saying his antics on the court are a result of the way he was brought up.

      Ummmm. I would and I have (not Grayson but others). For example, Brock Turner, the Stamford rapist and the Duke lacrosse team are examples of spoiled kids that think they can get away with anything. There was something wrong with the way those kids were brought up.

      @107

      So, let me get this straight: why can’t a rich white old man criticize a rich young black man? How does that become ‘racist’?

      Precisely. Let’s call it what it is: criticism.

      @109

      too bad karl couldn’t have been a more inspiring “man” to emulate…

      This is truth – to a degree. I think that by the time these kids get to the pros, they are too old and successful to really take to that kind of coaching. When I read the Karl quotes about Anthony, my first thoughts was ‘How did Jim Boeheim not get Melo to play defense or be a primadonna?” HS and college coaches get these players when they are clay. By the time they’re in the pros, they’ve hardened like stone. It’s the old lament, how do you get a kid that’s making millions to listen to a coach that makes a fraction of what the player makes? It makes me appreciate the Derek Jeters of the world. Jeter called Joe Torre “Mr. Torre” when Torre managed the Yankees. Now there was a kid that was brought up right!

    100. “the Duke lacrosse team are examples of spoiled kids that think they can get away with anything.”
      Um, you might not be aware of this but the Duke lacrosse team was exonerated. They didn’t do anything wrong that they had to “get away with.”

    101. “but nobody would ever come out with a story on Grayson Allen saying his antics on the court are a result of the way he was brought up.”
      Maybe, maybe not, but I sure have seen a lot of stories in the last 24 hours talking about what an asshole he is.

    102. People on here who criticize Phil and George are obviously reverse racists.

    103. Even if you want to believe there’s no racial subtext to Karl’s comments (which I don’t) he’s still an ass. Carmelo was 21-26 years old under Karl. The last few years he’s clearly become a high character guy no matter what you think of his play on the court (if he wasn’t already- basically his one big “character” mistake was Stop Snitching and maybe, MAYBE Jeremy Lin so I don’t know how much is change and how much is just him being more vocal about stuff off of the court) so taking shots at him without acknowledging the man he is now is dick-ish.

    104. @79 – injury riddled seasons do count especially if they were marked by serious injuries and ESPECIALLY if they were 3 years in a row….

      it’s a bit silly to project that rose was not going to be close to mvp level year…. and what he’s doing now… is a lot closer to last year than any of his mvp years…

    105. As I already said, under the specific self-imposed limitations that the Knicks are working under, then re-signing Rose might be their best bet. However, I think it’s important to note that if people don’t like the idea of giving Rose 4 years/$90 million, do note that there’s no way Derrick Rose is re-signing here for as “little” as 4 years/$90 million. He is eligible to re-sign with the Knicks for 5 years (wait for this…this is not a typo)….$175 million. Obviously he’s not signing a 5-year/$175 million contract, either, but it’s going to a lot more than 4 years/$90 million. As we have already seen, the media is covering Rose like he’s a star again, and he will get paid, especially since giving him a larger contract doesn’t change the Knicks cap status much either way in the short term (and the short term is all the Knicks like to think in), as giving him $22 million a year would cap them out in the short term just as much as giving him $27 million a year would.

      Dwyane Wade signed for $23.5 million a year! With the media narrative against Wade at the time.

    106. So here is where Karl crosses the line: from Twitter
      I don’t know if this is a direct quote, but if it is, then his statements are racist.

      i guess karl finally gave up on coaching in the nba ever again and figured he take off his mask (and, put his “hood” back on for all to see)…hmmmm, what a surprise he had so many run ins with players…

    107. #113

      If that quote was from Karl, then I have a serious issue with his characterization. I do find it racist when rich white people behave as if nothing good comes from ‘the hood’ or ‘the ghetto.’

      I don’t have an issue with a coach making a link between a lack of father-figure role models and character issue in their players because its been proven time and time again that regardless of race of racial or class background fatherless children are at a dramatically greater risk to display behavior issues. I don’t have an issue with calling out a player’s father for not teaching their son the value of humility or hard work.

      But acting as if ‘the ghetto’ is a terrible place just shits on an entire group of people – most of whom are humble, work hard, and don’t have the opportunities a suburban baby boomer like George Karl has ever experienced. And the fact that Karl thinks a black player needs to shed that experience in order to mature into an NBA player shows what major racial baggage he’s working with.

    108. @RAS1980 – I agree with everything you said. Taken by itself, the “posse” remark and calling Anthony an “AAU brat” and blaming poor parenting is OK by me. On the other hand saying that they came from the “hood” and were “thugs” and referring to players as “ghetto players” puts the other statements into context and is deplorable.

    109. I just wanna weigh in on this George Karl thing. As a 39 y/o black man and father with very deep ties to the hood..the ghetto, I’ve got an understament for the world to process. Racism is very real. That said, I’m not sure if I’m bothered by George Karl’s statement. Yes..it was ugly the way it came out- the bluntness of it. Being from “the hood” makes you headstrong, limited, and ill prepared for a great many things in this country money being one of them. But the same rings true for ANYONE who grew up in poverty. Our plight as blacks is beyond twisted considering the vile nature of slavery and its effects. That being said- I get Karl’s point.

      See..we as a nation have to have those dirty conversations about social issues if we are to truly move past them. Political Correctness has grown into an uncontrollable monster. You can’t say anything without being accused of being racist, insensitive, unpatriotic, or crazy. And that’s where the idea of Political Correctness goes too far and becomes a twisted ideal. Seriously…how in the hell are we going to have a productive conversation and aspire to do better as a nation when it comes to our social issues if we can’t say what it is for fear of stupid ass backlash? I’m not wiling to call George Karl a racist even though he may actually be one behind closed doors. But I will appreciate the opportunity his comments on the platform he used has given us to have that conversation. We as a nation spend too much time arguing over who is racist instead of being a part of the solution. Sometimes we have to have these real conversations and anyone who thinks that it’s ok to practice bigotry, racism, and the like because of this “need” or any other reason really shouldn’t be considered citizens of this nation. Period. And I am in no way condoning any racist, bigoted, and prejudiced behavior. It just is what it is and we have got to find a way to get past the…vitriolic characteristics of society that we’ve become accustomed to

    110. This is the text of the image that GoNy posted:

      Karl on Anthony’s relationship with James and Wade: “All came from the hood, but Lebron and Dwayne cleaned up their thuggish acts. Carmelo still had a little ‘hood’ in him. Coaching ghetto players like Iverson, J.R., Carmelo, and Kenyon was a huge pain in the ass.”

      Where there’s smoke, there’s fire.

    111. after this “ghetto” comments from Karl, honestly, screw him, he deserves the backlash.

      “cleaned up their thuggish acts”, is this guy for real? what the actual fuck.

    112. Wow. That was a pretty eclectic read through the comments.

      On the basketball side of things, I can’t find where it was raised above, but the point was mentioned about developing young players in a winning culture/environment. I think this is really underrated, and personally if I had the option with this team of full on tanking as opposed to putting together a consistent playoff team (not necessarily a contender) I would rather have the young guys on my team exposed to playoff basketball than spend years of being a lottery team.

      I think the jury is still out on whether the tactic of tanking like Philly is the way to go, but I feel if you go any tanking route, you have to also be prepared to work hard at changing a losing culture. Obviously the Spurs model is the the greatest example and probably impossible to completely emulate, but I think if you can at least put together a solid playoff team and fold in draftees, you potentially give yourself a shot at being consistently very good.

    113. What we absolutely can and should be saying about Karl’s comments is that he should of used a better choice of words because what he said insinuates racial degradation and indirectly backs the perpetuation of “White Privilege”. It really sucks that the first person that comes to mind when they hear “ghetto” or “hood” is a black person. There are all different types of ghettos across the world. But the only stigma that sticks with that connotation is people expect blacks from the PJ’s when they hear it. Is a poor trailer park not a ghetto? Is a home in a poor neighborhood with a cheap price tag not “ghetto”? What makes a rich person’s house on the hill that he/she practices corruption in not ghetto? Another definition for ghetto is “put in or restrict to an isolated or segregated area or group”, so because the house looks pretty the corruption is OK. It’s all still “ghetto” one way or another

    114. “cleaned up their thuggish acts”, is this guy for real? what the actual fuck.

      Agreed. 200%

    115. @113 Man, is this even real? Isn’t it a fake? I just can’t believe it. I mean, I would like to see who posted it on Twitter, cause this quote is very serious.

      Well, if it’s real, then Karl lost me. It’s sad, since I used to like his Nuggets’ teams and really got happy when he was able to survive cancer recently. He did a terrible job in Sacramento, but I still respected the man. Never thought I would see him saying these things, with these kind of words…

    116. @123

      that is a great post totes.

      as a homossexual son of immigrants I can totally relate to this.

      I do think political correctness has positive effects, in the sense that young people in vulnerable positions are the ones that suffer the most with the constant usage of hurtful / insensitive words.

      it’s one thing to say that calling someone a “f******” or a “n******” shouldn’t hurt someone; but it’s totally different to be a young person in a position of vulnerability and to keep hearing those words every day of your life, and be able to brush them off… it’s not easy.

      In the end, if political correctness ends up having the effect of impeding conversation and debate about bigotry, I agree it is more harmful than good.

    117. Many times, I think the backlash against political correctness is out of proportion, but, yes, sometimes PC may lead to some taboos, and problems that should openly debated can’t find appropriate space on media, for example. The Guardian recently posted a very interesting article about how “political correctness” has been transformed in a ghost by the conservatives (when it shouldn’t be quite that way). Curiously, the term was “invented” by the liberals, during the 70s, to criticize those who they thought were self-righteous.

    118. Well, reading the tweets by some players, I guess George Karl really doesn’t care about being around the “NBA Family” anymore. His reputations among the players is now forever tainted.

    119. Sorry yal..I-I lied. I’m really 25 years old for 14 years now lol

      My story and I’m stickin to it

    120. really good stuff totes, glad i had a chance to read your posts today..

      points well taken…

      what goes on in the dark – sometimes needs a bright spotlight directed at it…

    121. Man, I wouldn’t want to f*ck with Kenyon. Not sure what GK was thinking. Just angry and pissing on people I guess.

    122. Going to steer clear of Karl.

      Re Rose, he’s been below average overall. His best stretch was followed by him having to sit out a bunch of games with a bad back. I think Rose has shown the ability to get by his defender, which was more than I expected to see. He hasn’t proved his ability to finish in traffic, the ability to shoot the three, or the ability to get to the line at his MVP level. I really don’t trust his health short term or long term.

      I’d be opposed to bringing back Rose for anything more than veteran backup pg money, whatever crazy number that is. (Allan Crabbe! 18.5!)

      Long way to go before any decisions get made. We will have a lot more data at the end of the year. But it still seems like an awful idea at almost any price. Obviously, I have been anti-Rose all the way but I haven’t seen anything to sway me.

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