Knicks Morning News (2016.12.21)

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks put three-game skid behind them with 118-111 win against Pacers
    (Tuesday, December 20, 2016 9:55:51 PM)

    The Knicks closed out the Pacers with a strong fourth quarter in a 118-111 victory Tuesday night.

  • [SNY Knicks] NBA Insider Stefan Bondy gives his take on the Knicks
    (Tuesday, December 20, 2016 7:19:59 PM)

  • [SNY Knicks] Tonight’s Game: Knicks vs. Pacers
    (Tuesday, December 20, 2016 6:35:54 PM)

    The Knicks (14-13) welcome the Indiana Pacers (15-14) to Madison Square Garden on Tuesday night.

  • [SNY Knicks] How can the Knicks best utilize Joakim Noah?
    (Tuesday, December 20, 2016 10:00:08 AM)

    Heading into Tuesday night’s game against Indiana at Madison Square Garden, Joakim Noah is still confident things will work out despite his underwhelming play that has faced serious criticism

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks battle Pacers at MSG on Tuesday
    (Tuesday, December 20, 2016 11:31:55 AM)

    The Knicks will go up against the Indiana Pacers at Madison Square Garden on Tuesday.

  • [SNY Knicks] Ndour, Plumlee assigned to Westchester
    (Tuesday, December 20, 2016 8:36:26 AM)

    The New York Knicks assigned center Marshall Plumlee and forward Maurice Ndour to Westchester.

  • [NYPost] Carmelo Anthony doesn’t like NBA’s new All-Star vote rules
    (Tuesday, December 20, 2016 8:16:34 PM)

    Fans have been good to Carmelo Anthony. They have voted him in as an NBA All-Star starter eight straight years — in both the Western and the Eastern conferences. So it’s little wonder Anthony wasn’t thrilled to learn this week the fans will have less impact in this season’s All-Star voting, which starts on Christmas….

  • [NYPost] What a 15-minute joyride tells us about the Knicks’ ceiling
    (Tuesday, December 20, 2016 7:11:35 PM)

    Here’s the thing about the Knicks, the very best thing, in fact, across these first 28 games of the year: Every so often, they give you 15 minutes of basketball that really can ignite the engine of your imagination. Every so often, for 10 minutes here, for 12 minutes there, the ball moves and the…

  • [NYPost] Carmelo Anthony catches fire for thrilling Knicks win
    (Tuesday, December 20, 2016 5:13:24 PM)

    The Big Three was back together again and, as Carmelo Anthony said, showed how “dangerous” they can be when it matters — in the fourth quarter. The Knicks arose with a vengeance in the final 17 minutes Tuesday and got an active throwback performance from maligned center Joakim Noah as they rallied from a 15-point…

  • [NYPost] Kristaps Porzingis gets raise in new NBA pact — with $195M in reach
    (Tuesday, December 20, 2016 4:12:03 PM)

    The NBA’s tentatively agreed upon collective bargaining agreement will make Knicks second-year phenom Kristaps Porzingis richer even before he becomes a free agent for the first time in the summer of 2019. When he does hit free agency, Porzingis will be aided even more by the riches of the new CBA. In fact, with an…

  • [NYTimes] Led by Anthony, Knicks Wake Up Against Pacers
    (Wednesday, December 21, 2016 3:57:32 AM)

    Carmelo Anthony scored 35 points as the Knicks shook off he effects of their recent West Coast trip and came from behind to defeat the Pacers.

  • [NYDN] Knicks would rather not use Kristaps Porzingis at center
    (Tuesday, December 20, 2016 9:07:29 PM)

    Jeff Hornacek threw cold water on the idea that Kristaps Porzingis’ position of the future is center

  • [NYDN] Knicks turn it on in second half to beat Pacers in return to MSG
    (Tuesday, December 20, 2016 8:26:22 PM)

    For the Knicks, it’s good to be home and fully healthy.

  • [NYDN] Progress has been made as Knicks near last season’s win total
    (Tuesday, December 20, 2016 8:22:34 PM)

    At 15-13, the Knicks are in the mix with a handful of teams for the final six spots in the Eastern Conference playoff race.

  • [NYDN] NBA’s rising salary cap will help Knicks build around Porzingis
    (Tuesday, December 20, 2016 3:34:35 PM)

    The summer of 2020 is when all of New York’s current players come off the books, including Carmelo Anthony and Joakim Noah.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ Kristaps Porzingis’ salary to jump next two seasons
    (Tuesday, December 20, 2016 11:51:41 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis is due for a big raise.

  • [NY Newsday] Carmelo Anthony takes control as Knicks defeat Indiana Pacers
    (Tuesday, December 20, 2016 11:40:08 PM)

    The Knicks looked like a team that was a little jet-lagged and weary from a long trip for most of the night. But they found their legs right about the time Carmelo Anthony nearly broke Thaddeus Young’s ankles.

  • [NY Newsday] Derrick Rose’s return sparks Knicks
    (Tuesday, December 20, 2016 11:24:00 PM)

    Jeff Hornacek wasn’t kidding when he said there would be no minutes restrictions on Derrick Rose Tuesday night.

  • [ESPN] What to watch for tonight during the Knicks’ game against Indiana
    (Tuesday, December 20, 2016 6:00:29 AM)

    What to watch for tonight during the Knicks’ game against Indiana

  • 74 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2016.12.21)”

    Fun win last night. My quick thoughts:

    1) I think it is becoming pretty clear that this really is a different team (in a good way) when Rose is playing. For the season now, Rose is the only rotation player on the entire team with a positive net rating (+0.1 yay!!), and if you take into account his off-court net rating, he has by a pretty fair margin the best “net net rating” with a +8.1. When he is on the court, the team has its highest eFG and TS (51.1 and 54.8 respectively), and when he is off, it has pretty much its lowest (48.7 and 51.8, basically tied with Melo). Some of that is just who is on the court with him, but I think the signal is pretty strong now. Whether that is good enough to start thinking extension is another story, but it’s real IMHO. He made some pretty awful passes in the first half last night but I thought he was really good in the 2nd to the tune of 15 points, 3 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 blocks (!), just 1 turnover, and a +15 in 21 minutes.

    2) Awesome game by Melo. Weird year by Melo. I don’t understand why there are games like this where he is just a flamethrower and then others where he literally is missing his 3’s by feet.

    3) I’ve been as critical of Noah and his contract as anyone, but I was really happy to see how well he played last night. 3/4 from the line (And the one he missed was right on line but just a bit long), 2 blocks, good team D, a TRB% of 20 for the game, and a couple really nice passes. It’s crazy that all he shoots are layups and free throws (basically the perfect shot distribution!) and we all cringe whenever the ball leaves his hands. From all reports, he’s a very proud guy, and his own performance this year must be killing him. But last night was a good night.

    4) Man our defense is just awful. I don’t know that it’s going to get better unless we get Noah back to 2014.

    I also liked how Hornacek staggered minutes last night — 35-36 minutes for Melo, Rose, and Lee, and 33 for KP. The 1st quarter to 2nd quarter transition is still a little weird, but overall it all made sense last night.

    by the way is Paul George good? I never watch the Pacers, but he looked really average last night. Like REALLY average.

    Paul George is about at good Melo’s level or better because of his superior defense. He’s having a down season though I think.

    Regarding KP’s motor, I don’t know if this explains it totally, but he has anemia and even if he’s getting treatment for it it can still adversely affect you energy levels/physical abilities. Maybe he’s going through a worst bout of it than usual. Or maybe he’s just more tired because of other reasons, who knows.

    Pacers swapping Hill with Teague is a downgrade I reckon, and Ellis not fitting with this lineup – good win for Knicks anyway

    KP is tired because he’s never played the amount of minutes he’s playing this season before in his career.

    I think KP’s motor is just fine. He is asked to do so much on both ends of the court, and unlike Melo, he doesn’t completely half-ass it on the defensive end 80% of the time. on offense he sets screens, rolls, pops, hits the offensive glass, fights for position against dudes that are getting into his legs etc. On defense he is chasing stretch 4s and contesting everything in sight. He is just playing a few too many minutes, or at least not getting frequent enough breaks.

    I thought the anemia thing was from when he was a teenager in Europe? I assume the Knicks’ doctors are all over that.


    I’m not anemic or a doctor so I don’t know a whole lot about it, but it was only diagnosed 3 years ago, so it’s possible that he’s still behind slightly of where you’d want his endurance to be ultimately. He’s also just 7’3″ and guys that big have a hard time bringing it for as many minutes as others.

    His lack of effort usually, when it happens, manifests itself in slow help rotations, slow reactions on the board or a failure to box his man out and settling for awkward jumpers on the perimeter.

    Re: KP – he is shooting too many of the between / no-man’s land shots, and it’s a result of him taking shots off the dribble when he is not yet ready in his career to do it. His eFG off zero dribbles = 57%, 1 dribble is 47%, and 2 dribbles+ is about 36%. Take the 3 at the top of the key or pass it. Stop dribbling!

    I don’t think the conclusion from those stats is so clear-cut. We don’t want KP to be a one-dimensional player. Remember how we all wished Tyson had practiced a baby hook and 10-15ft spot up jumper earlier in his career? Maybe KP will improve with practice. 47% isn’t so bad to start and that 36% doesn’t capture the times he dribbles 2+ times and is fouled. The main concern IMHO is that KP ends up ultimately with a less efficient shot profile distribution much like Melo but here’s where bb-IQ is relevant. I think KP’s smart enough on his own to eventually figure out what the right mix is and in what situations he should put the ball on the floor.

    I don’t wanna be a buzzkill, but I don’t think last night was a good win for these 2 main reasons:
    1. Indiana was on the back end of b2b and missing 2 key rotation players. This team needs to get a real defensive game plan or learn how to defend better because we should not have given up that many points. I feel like that was a game we could have and should gave won goin away. A win is a win, and I’m happy the losing streak has ended, but still..y’know?
    2. Melo scored 35, and yet again the team was a net negative by 10 or more while he was on the court. That’s something Hornacek has to find a way to fix.

    Things I like so far:
    1. Derrick Rose. When healthy, he’s the main catalyst for good offense. He seems to be a horrible passer right now, but there’s no denying the offense is really good with him on the floor. His presence allows Hornacek to actually run hos triangle aspects offense as Rose allows the team to settle in with some halfcourt sets. That’s good for Noah too. I’m not a big fan of Rose, but if he stays healthy- you gotta at least consider extending him. He means alot more to the team than anyone imagined he’d be.
    2. The KP/Rose/Melo triumvirate. When they are clicking…WOW. Hard to defend. The last 6 or so minutes of the 4th last night had me on my feet the whole time.

    All that said..Hornacek really really needs to find a way to get KP closer to the basket on both ends. It’s great that he can shoot from anywhere on the court, but he’s still 7’3″ 245. He’s decent at rebounding on both ends, and great at rim protection. And on offense, who’s really gonna stop him from 15 and in with his skillset and athleticism at that size? Hornacek obviously hasn’t fully figured team out yet, so in that respect we’re lucky to be pretty much in the top 5 or so (??) in the conference. Still, the team is better than I expected


    One way to get KP closer to the basket is to play him at center, but Hornacek just publicly stated he didn’t want to do that for defensive reasons. Unless they run and execute more plays with KP cutting to the basket, I don’t see how we can do what you’re asking for since he doesn’t have the strength to consistently anchor down low in the post yet.

    Am I wrong here or what?

    Our game last night was not exactly great for a home game after rest, against a b2b team w/o key players but our “will to win” was FIERY !

    Among the most exciting wins of the last few seasons !

    i’m definitely sure that Horny & co will try to fix the D
    and also will try to find a way to sustain the Effort level high for 48′.

    I agree, Ras. I think KP can only play the 5 in spurts right now, preferably with the 2nd unit and against the opposing 2nd unit. It’s seems like quite the challenge to get KP closer to the basket more often given his unique blend of size and skills. At the same time, KP hasn’t learned how to use his size on offense to his advantage yet, and as a result he plays more like a 7’3″ wing, which isn’t much of an advantage when you consider the way the league is trending. That said, once he puts it all together, he is gonna be transcendent.

    “He’s also just 7’3? and guys that big have a hard time bringing it for as many minutes as others.”
    He also just turned 21. We tend to forget how young that is but he is a full two years younger than Patrick Ewing was in his rookie year. I remember reading a story about how Rick Pitino once scrimmaged with the team (when Ewing was in about his third year) and he said that he was stunned at how easy it was for him to push Ewing out of position. KP does not have nearly the strength or the stamina that he will likely have in a couple of years.

    Sasha, Kuz and Willy staying after the game at the Garden to practice their shooting is just fantastic. Willy making threes during that session is even better,

    With KP, Melo and Rose essentially scoring 33+ points in the 4th, we got a taste of how good those three starters can be. And it was the first time I had a feel that they all were feeding off each other as a team. Melo’s 3s emboldened KP and Rose’s penetrations embolden the team as well.
    We often see other teams feeding off the Knicks’ poor 3 pt defense and all of a sudden a guy like Mudiay starts jacking and making shots he has no business making otherwise.
    This was the first game where the big three exuded confidence. It was like the first three periods were one game, and then the 4th was another. I remember posting last night at the 10 minute mark of the 4th that the Pacers had 94 points. I think they scored 17 the rest of the way.

    The commentary about KP dribbling and creating his own shot…I think his handle is a valuable tool in his tool box. Centers and PFs must sag when he’s got the ball. They have to respect the drive, the cross over, and they’re not used to defending it. In the NBA, anything that discomforts a defender is insanely valuable.
    It also will help KP as a passer.
    I am okay with him doing it.
    With Melo, a lot of his dribbling is just clock killing before the inevitable long 2.
    I love 3 pt shooting Melo. Love it. The man has a great stroke and better for him to be out there with a Rose and Jennings working the paint. Melo doesn’t have the hops he once had. But his stroke is still beautiful. I think his recent up and down play is more representative of figuring out how to fit in with two other all star quality players on his team.
    Frankly, Rose playing as he did down the stretch made the Knicks dangerous. And Rose plays D!

    There will be plenty of shots for the big three. I think more and more Melo can play a spot up killer, as can KP. But KP should do more work in the paint as time goes by.

    A good home defense win.

    On the other hand O’Quinn is reverting, as is Jennings a bit.
    Lee is solidifying, and the bench is shortening.

    Jury is still out on Noah, but last night was heartening. His tip ins are still tortured.
    I actually wish KP would hold rebounds higher. He keeps pulling the ball down where the little people can pick his pocket. He should do what Melo does: grab the board, hold it high and swing those elbows. Far fewer pickpockets would be there to take it from him.

    Great win. 15-13 is pretty good. Rose is pretty good. Noah is not dead yet. This team still hasn’t really hasn’t played it’s best game. I’m starting to feel confident when we take the floor at home. Rose / Noah bring a winning culture and are in no way satisfied. Not convinced about the roster going forward three years but at the end of the season I may be.

    There were some plays esp. in the second half where Rose really did look a lot like “vintage” DRose. While he didn’t get up quite as high as he used to, he looked great getting up to the rim- very explosive. Unless he gets injured again it’s going to be a really tough decision as to whether to resign him at the end of the year.


    I agree.

    It’s also not only being heavier than your opponent… two guys can weigh the same, but footwork, balance, agility and experience all play a factor in a situation like this, that’s why sometimes a player has all the physical tools but is still abused by other players.

    @21 there was one in particular, I think against George or Turner, where his head was at the rim at the peak of his jump.

    Re: Noah, I’m as big a critic of his as anyone, but he played quite well last night. Breen made an interesting comment on the broadcast–that Noah is a rhythm player who needs to get himself going by playing well and staying on the court. Here’s hoping he can string a few good games together. If we can at least get some productivity out of years 1-2 of the contract it won’t look as inexucasably horrible as it does at the moment.

    Been thinking about the offseason, and it seems extraordinarily likely that barring a collapse or new injury to Rose, that we’re bringing him back. I just don’t see how we would really improve the team otherwise. The difference-making PGs (CP3/Steph/Lowry) are definitely staying put due to the parameters of the new CBA. Jrue Holiday, who has serious injury issues also, is also likely staying put.

    – If we re-sign Rose, we could still bring Justin Holiday back using the Early Bird exception.

    – We could re-sign Jennings (if we want) using a non-Bird exception, which would pay him $6MM/year – less than the non-taxpayer MLE of 8.4MM but more than the taxpayer MLE of projected ~$5MM. Given his deficiencies I am not sure he would warrant a full MLE on the open market, and given how much he says he loves NYC (and I do believe him), he probably would not leave unless there were a really great offer out there (that I don’t see happening).

    – that would leave us still with the full MLE and 3 draft picks to improve our team, as well as continued development from Hernangomez, Kuzminskas, and KP.

    I dunno. I guess the naysayers were at least partially right in that it seems inevitable that we are going to re-sing Rose. (they were not right (yet) that he would be awful or injured or or both)

    Breen made an interesting comment on the broadcast–that Noah is a rhythm player who needs to get himself going by playing well and staying on the court.

    Lots of guesswork going on but I’m still in Noah’s court. He needs the playing time and he needs to build his confidence. As my post yesterday indicated, except for his astonishing failures at the foul line, his per36 is on par with his all-star years. The problem with the foul shooting is that opponents are tempted to play hack-a-Noah. His 3-4 from the line was yesterday’s most important stat.

    Unfortunately re: the inevitable Rose re-signing, the last person I would want negotiating that contract for the Knicks is Phil Jackson.

    rose has not been good.. i’m not going to rehash old rose arguments but the likely scenario i see is resigning jennings to a 2-3yr deal and drafting a pg…

    the reason being is that we are likely to be somewhere in the 10-16 range for the draft… and it’s way heavier in pg’s than sg’s… plus the draft precedes FA.. and if we do take a pg i don’t see us investing long term in the position…

    i don’t think cp3 returns to the clips either but i see someone like san antonio being the more likely destination…

    Barring injury I’m all for resigning rose. I get why the pessimists don’t want to commit to this team for 3 more years but I think this squad can get better. Resign rose, Jennings and holiday, draft a pg and some wing players and go into camp next year returning the team we have now which hasn’t happened with the Knicks in over a decade. Continuity and improvement from KP, Willie H plus young talent with draft picks means we can compete with Melo in his late prime (i.e. Compete for the ecf) and build for the future around KP. Rose is 28. There will be less back to backs next year. Noah can get better. Look to trade LT or NOah when the right trade comes up. Continuity is highly underrated to the success and improvement of a team.

    rose has not been good.. i’m not going to rehash old rose arguments but the likely scenario i see is resigning jennings to a 2-3yr deal and drafting a pg…

    Aside from the bad pass turnovers, I’d say otherwise. He has been good. Not statistically if that’s what you’re looking at. Whether we agree or not on the quality of Rose’s play, one thing is undeniable. The team is decidedly better with him on the court. Even still, if the team has a good shot at CP3 or Curry, then Phil would be foolish not to pursue. It’s cheaper to retain Jennings and start him- but that’s not gonna make the team better. He hasn’t been nearly as effective as Rose in the halfcourt with the starters- which leads me to believe that he is in the perfect role right now.

    rose arguments aside… from a cap perspective it makes more sense to keep a part of that slot open to deal with the inevitable lee decline in FA if we need to go that route…

    Gotta get rid of Brandon Jennings and draft a back up PG to eventually take over for Rose at the end of his extension. I’d rather draft a back up PG and give Chasson Randle a shot as the 3rd PG. I like BJ’s pressure defense but teams just have to screen him and they get two points.

    rose has not been good…

    Gotta get rid of Brandon Jennings

    Will you all stop this? I can add almost every player that ever passed through our doors to the list of those we want to get rid of.

    1) It’s clear that Rose is VERY good. Yes, he had back spasms and missed time. I guess he suffers from mortality.
    2) It’s clear that Jennings plays his ass off with reckless abandon and loves playing in NY.

    What we SHOULD do is try and sign them now to reasonable deals. I’ve waited a long time to have point guards as good as this pair. Shame on all you haters. You deserve Jose Calderon (who’s currently playing his best basketball – on the IR)

    The worst case scenario for this team was always for Rose to have exactly the kind of season he’s having, and then for Phil to give him some insane extension.

    Welcome to the worst case scenario, everybody! Again.

    I like Derrick Rose; it’s Jennings who I think is ultimately replaceable. He doesn’t score or play defense well enough to be anything other than a rental.

    mfw someone calls Derrick Rose “very good” with a straight face


    I think Jennings is fine as a backup PG who comes on the court with energy, etc.

    He gets exposed with lots of playing time, however, b/c he cannot finish at the rim at all and is a horrible defender. Sure, he is pesky and picks off the occasional pass, but in the half court he gets beaten off the dribble or gets lost on screens all the time.

    I have very mixed feelings about Rose (for example, I think he still going to miss a lot of games), but what’s the alternative? Any chance at all of signing Paul or Curry? No? Who else, then? Is there a good stopgap to sign while drafting a PG in next year’s draft? Try to swing a trade for Rubio? Even if so, can he shoot 40%?

    mfw someone calls Derrick Rose “very good” with a straight face

    Yeah. I said it with a straight face. I don’t know what you want from the guy. He plays, we win. He sits, we lose. I’m just sure that you’ll NEVER be content — forget happy! I’m convinced that you’re Scrooge in disguise.

    I know this is gonna sound crazy but maybe, just maybe, the best idea is to…not spend all of the cap this offseason?

    If we must blow our cap on a PG it better be Patty Mills George Hill or a Rubio trade (all of whom are markedly better than Rose.)

    Gotta go all in. All we need to do is bring back the exact team that is hovering around .500 right now, let all the veterans keep getting older, and just wait for the ringzz to start rolling in.

    You get a chance to give a max contract to a guy with Ray Felton-level production, you just gotta go for it.

    i do like a trade… but we don’t really have much to offer up… and ultimately i think the best we can do is dragic which moves the needle a tad but not enough in my eyes….

    ideally i would love to get rubio and draft another pg but we don’t have much to offer the wolves unless they want rose…

    The Knicks would do pretty well to tank and grab Fultz or Ball to pilot this team but that’s not likely to happen at all. The big reason I’m pro letting BJ go is Shamorie Ponds out of St. John’s. He’s what Brandon Jennings would be if Brandon Jennings was taught how to shoot.

    Derrick Rose is trending upwards as is Joakim Noah. I think both of them end the season with WS/48’s over .130. That’s no reason for Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah to take up approximately 40% of the cap over the next 4 years but hey. If you’re gonna Knicks, then Knicks the full way and damn the consequences.

    In all honesty, all it really takes in order to have a good team in a market like ours is to hit on 2 draft picks. The Knicks look like they hit on two already and if we hit on another one or two this year that’s a great team we’ll have going forward. So even if Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, and Joakim Noah become decrepit, if their younger back ups become good players we’ll be fine. It’s not a good strategy but it’s the one the Spurs and Hawks used.

    @39 – JK47
    Go right ahead and max everyone out.

    Based on Hollinger’s NBA player rankings, Rose is hovering around 20th overall. Rose continues to improve and I think, byt the end of the season he could break into the top 10 but let’s say he stays where he is. What are you doing for a point guard?

    Do you want to resign Rose?
    Are you cheaping out and nabbing someone like Raymond Felton for the minimum?
    Are you hoping that the 20th pick in the NBA draft will nab you a perennial all-star?

    If the answers to the last two choices are yes, move to Philadelphia where they’ve been taking since the turn of the century. If all 3 options don’t meet your needs, what do you think we should do?

    He plays, we win. He sits, we lose

    We’re 1-3 without Rose, and two of those loses were drubbings by the two best teams in the NBA. We’re 1-1 in games we had a decent chance of winning without Rose. He might make us a bit better, but let’s not get carried away

    rose is sitting at a ws48 of .054 and it hasn’t really changed much…. if he gets over .100 i will eat a shoe…

    the idea about not resigning rose and giving the keys to a caretaker is that we will have a similar record with or without him.. it’s a matter of how much you are investing into the position… 40-44 wins isn’t too hard to accomplish….

    the reason we suck without rose has more to do with the fact that jennings’ slotted minutes now goto baker… who’s offense is really bad out of what he’s shown thus far… if you have a nba level backup or a draft pick who can put a ws48 of .050 … which would basically be like rose.. then we are essentially the same team with less money committed…

    If all 3 options don’t meet your needs, what do you think we should do?

    You don’t need to go all-in every single year. Derrick Rose probably doesn’t make the New York Knicks NBA champions in 2017-2018. Maintain your cap flexibility, sign a one-year stopgap if need be. You don’t have to say “welp, there was nobody out there, the only thing to do was give D-Rose a bad contract.”

    This is the kind of thinking that dooms the Knicks to perennial mediocrity.

    The issue isn’t “is Rose very good,” it’s that the Knicks are very good with point guard play that sniffs league average. It doesn’t have to be Rose. Structurally, this team is in promising shape.

    I want Jrue Holiday; he’s 26, can do everything Rose does, and shoots threes well.

    George Hill would be good choice too, especially if this team is getting maxed out. The defense would be tremendous. I don’t know if he’s a primary ballhandler, though.

    No. It has to be Rose. I would consider Hill, Dragic, CP3 or Holiday but why risk losing Rose?

    Sure, we can draft a rookie PG as our third option at the position but this team is too far advanced to let a babe in the woods lead the team for at least 3 more years.

    I’m usually in the rose colored glasses contingent (pun intended) but under no circumstances do I think we should sign Rose, unless for whatever reason he takes a huge pay cut (which he won’t)

    Just because this isn’t a big year for PG free agents does not justify bringing back a guy for large $$ who we all admit at his best right now is a league average PG. He’s not going to get any better or any younger.

    Idk this does seem like a pretty good year for FA PGs… I could feasibly see Hill, Jrue, Mills and even cp3 all ending up in new places, not to mention the deep crop of PGs in this years draft.

    There have definitely been worse years to look for a starting PG in the offseason…like last year.

    Hate it or love it, but CP3 & Curry are the only PG’s that could potentially be available that will be an upgrade from the effect Rose is having on the offense. Pure and simple, and I hate admitting it because I’ve never been a fan of Derrick Rose. He’s a fine player when he’s running on all cylinders, but at his best he’s a ball hogging, shot-jacking lead guard. Even the supposedly alpha-ball hog-shot jacking lead guard is a MUCH better and willing passer. If you play the 1, u gotta know how and when to get guys involved and when to go for yours. That’s never gonna change.

    No. It has to be Rose. I would consider Hill, Dragic, CP3 or Holiday but why risk losing Rose?

    Sure, we can draft a rookie PG as our third option at the position but this team is too far advanced to let a babe in the woods lead the team for at least 3 more years.

    I believe it’s worth it to risk losing Rose, because Hill, Dragic, CP3, and Holiday are all more valuable players than him.

    Rose is helping the team win. I am enjoying watching the team win. At the same time, he’s never been a lockdown defender, can’t shoot the three, and is not an efficient scorer. His driving ability and defensive competence opens up the Knicks’ offense — but the Knicks also have multiple options to upgrade to a PG next season that’s either a better shooter or a better defender.

    If NY brings back Rose on a cut rate deal I’m OK with that. But Phil is not a cutthroat negotiator over salaries.

    We need “a ball hogging, shot-jacking lead guard” when we have Noah at center who doesn’t score well and Lee at SG who doesn’t take many shots. Rose, who is our only true penetrator, is perfect for this team. The parts fit. Synergy.

    If the answers to the last two choices are yes, move to Philadelphia where they’ve been tanking since the turn of the century.

    Well…so have we. The only difference is we do it accidentally by signing guys like Rose to big money deals for multiple years. If we’re gonna do it, I’d at least like to do it with purpose and a plan.

    Well…so have we. The only difference is we do it accidentally by signing guys like Rose to big money deals for multiple years. If we’re gonna do it, I’d at least like to do it with purpose and a plan.

    Does it matter? Philly’s tanking on purpose and their cap flex is doing what for them? Are they getting awesome free agents to sign there? No, because teams that are obviously rebuilding aren’t attracting much in free agency and their best use of cap space is hoping they can find some Vlade out there dumping picks on picks on picks to clear cap space. When that doesn’t happen they sign the Gerald Hendersons and Jerryd Bayless’ of the world and continue to suck.

    If the Knicks committed to this core for 3 years and Rose, Noah and Melo all suffered catastrophic knee injuries we wouldn’t have cap space available to us to use, but we also wouldn’t be able to use it very productively in a scenario where we undertake a rebuilding anyways. Maybe in past years when having excess cap space with teams desperate to clear room it was valuable, but in an environment where teams have flexibility due to a rising cap every year that advantage isn’t nearly as useful.

    Hinkie’s plan was successful in part because of the circumstances in which he engaged in the abrasively open tanking behavior, but I doubt he’d be as successful in extracting assets for renting out cap space in the current league environment.

    The point of keeping your picks imo is to replenish your team with youth, but also as a hedge against disaster. Either way I don’t care if the Knicks sign Rose or Holiday or Hill for a shit ton of money as long as they keep the years in line with when Noah and Lee’s contracts expire.

    Phil hasn’t tried to align us in the past like that, but I’ll be pissed about this stuff if and when it happens. Until then I’m fine with enjoying a pretty fun team on the court.

    If the answers to the last two choices are yes, move to Philadelphia where they’ve been tanking since the turn of the century.

    The 76ers were in the conference semis in the 2011-2012 season. That was the season before the Knicks’ 54-win season. So they have only been in total suck mode for one season more than the Knicks.

    We need “a ball hogging, shot-jacking lead guard” when we have Noah at center who doesn’t score well and Lee at SG who doesn’t take many shots. Rose, who is our only true penetrator, is perfect for this team. The parts fit. Synergy

    No no no..Don’t get me wrong Reub. I’m not saying he doesn’t fit. He’s a great fit for the “Triangle Aspects” offense. I’m just lamenting the fact that he plays my favorite position on the court and his scorer to floor general ratio is waaaaaaaay lopsided. Though for us, it has its uses. Conversely, guys like Clyde/Zeke/Magic/CP3/Tim Hardaway probably could have led the league in scoring- they certainly had/have the requisite skills to do so. Rose hasn’t learned to balance the scorer with the floor general. Unless you’re AI with a lineup of non scorers, I don’t prefer a Rose type at the 1. But he brings things to the table that this team needs, so I cheer him on and appreciate his value. I do think he’s better than I’ve given him credit for in the past though.

    hinkie’s plan wasn’t to keep cap space forever…. it was always to get those big pieces through the draft and once you have pieces to build around you can then fill it in with the space available… cap space when you’re rebuilding doesn’t do anything but win meaningless games and miss out on trade opportunities…

    grabbing simmons and having embiid healthy… i’m pretty sure he would have jettisoned okafor and/or noel by now… and even if they just let them both walk… the sixers are about to get two high picks in a pretty loaded draft… and cap space to fill out the rest of the team… if hinkie was still aboard i have no doubt he could field a 50win team next season…

    So Hinkie essentially wasted two lottery picks by drafting redundant and duplicative talent, but he would have been able to field a 50 win team next year. I have a lot of reservations about that. Hinkie proved a master of collecting assets, but showed zero foresight or ability of constructing a team with complementary talent.

    And again cap space is great but very few quality free agents are signing for a team that is still in it’s youthful and formative stages of team development.

    Rose has been a lot better than I expected and creates a definite order to the offense while taking the ball out of Melo’s hands. As far as extending him goes, you can still put me in the “no freakin’ way” camp. My main reasons are related to big picture problems with the team’s timeline and Rose’s health along with the fact that while Rose’s single remaining skill of driving the ball persistently is super-useful for the Knicks, he’s not *that* good at it anymore and could be replaced with another aggressive guard for less money with less health risk.

    his drafting record was both hit and miss but each pick was pretty thoughtful and made a lot of sense… his worst pick was the least controversial …. and his best pick was the most… if it has to take waiting 3 years and 4 picks to come away with an embiid .. that’s worth it imo…. he has to stay healthy of course but that’s a worthy gamble….

    and the top of this year’s draft is about as good as 2015 imo… except guard/wing heavy instead of the big men…. coincidentally the positions the sixer need exactly… they also have cap space to fill in whatever gaps they have…

    hinkie really deserved to see this through and ppl are laughing at them now but it is going to turn around pretty quickly for them…. okc went from a 23 win team in 2009 to a 50 win team in 2010… a similar thing is going to happen to the sixers…

    Rose has not been as bad as his fiercest detractors said he would be and not nearly as good as those who want an extension think.

    He has been Feltonesque, which perfectly fits (and makes!) a bad team like ours.

    Basketball gods punishing a sinfully inept franchise.

    Silicon valley mumbo jumbo aside, Hinkie’s methods make sense to me. He had some bad luck, didn’t pick the best (but most of the picks were at least defensible), but the general plan was sound.

    Bill Simmons wrote 4,000 words on Giannis, Embiid and Porzingis and didn’t once mention that Embiid is averaging 5.2 turnovers per 32 minutes. Like, I don’t think it’s a big deal at this stage in his career, but I think you have to at least mention it if you’re doing an in depth profile of him as a player.

    Rose is playing about well enough (and Lopez and Grant are playing poorly enough) to feel more OK about the Lopez trade (not forgetting that we essentially got back Holiday and a #2 pick for Calderon and Grant.)

    But under no circumstances would I sign him to an extension. Best just to let him walk.

    What is the reason we have to spend all of our cap space this offseason? Just about everyone acknowledges the options are either highly questionable (Rose, Holiday, Collison) or moon shots (CP3, Curry, Hill). There’s no rule that says we have to settle for one of the former if we miss out on the latter. We can just not spend the money and wait for a better option to come along. What would be wrong with that?

    What is the reason we have to spend all of our cap space this offseason? Just about everyone acknowledges the options are either highly questionable (Rose, Holiday, Collison) or moon shots (CP3, Curry, Hill). There’s no rule that says we have to settle for one of the former if we miss out on the latter. We can just not spend the money and wait for a better option to come along. What would be wrong with that?

    Logically, sure, the money to Noah and Lee are sunk costs, but teams are not run by logic, so the Knicks are not going to spend big on a veteran SG, spend pick on a veteran SF, spend big on a veteran C and then just go bargain-bin hunting with their PG. It’s just not going to happen.

    That’s why the best option under the very specific set of self-imposed limitations that the Knicks have placed upon themselves might be to just re-sign Rose. They’ve already Knicked the situation up as it is, they might as well get the best team that they can get (and yes, obviously I get that that means then also re-signing Melo to the max, since his contract is up before the others – I’m not saying that this is the plan that I’d go with, I’m just saying that of their likely options, this one might be their best one).

    They’ve already Knicked the situation up as it is, they might as well get the best team that they can get

    I hate this line of thinking, not from you, Brian, but from the Knicks in general.

    “We’ve already made dumb mistakes in an ill-conceived attempt to win-n0w, might as well double down and make sure we ruin whatever flexibility remains, even if that means giving out a contract to a player who has zero chance of providing production commensurate to that contract.”

    No. You don’t have to keep doing dumb things just because you’re already done a bunch of dumb things. This team is really hard for me to get excited about, because it’s going to be really difficult to build on whatever success they have. If they re-sign Rose, they will be tying up a ridiculous amount of cap space in overpaid, declining veterans. They’ll be locked into mediocrity for the remainder of the decade.

    Let’s say the Knicks are in the 17-20 range with their first round pick. Who might be out there in the draft?

    If you like Euro guys, there is Isaiah Hartenstein, 6’11” German wing who can slash and shoot. He’s still very young, will turn 19 in May, so he’s more of a long-term project, so maybe he doesn’t fit in well with our ill-conceived “win now” team but he’s a good looking prospect.

    Bam Adebayo has been making some noise and is rising up draft boards, so he may end up off the board when the Knicks pick but he looks like a nice conventional burly strong-rebounding power forward to me. The Knicks could use a guy with that profile.

    Miles Bridges is a player I like a lot, and who may be available because he is seen as a tweener, but I think if he makes it in the NBA it will be as a small forward who plays harassing defense, rebounds well and isn’t a zero on the offensive end.

    Dwayne Bacon is another prospect who I have my eye on, he’s another tweener but more of a shooting guard type. Great physical profile, incredible leaper, good wingspan for an NBA 2, has improved his shot a lot this year.

    Watched Bacon slaughter my Gators recently and really like his game. He has really improved his shooting from deep this year. I would still take Josh Hart over him though. Bacon is a sophomore but he is an old sophomore. Hart is only 5 months older than him and he is a senior and does everything better than Bacon does.

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