Knicks Morning News (2016.12.06)

  • [ESPN] Tuesday’s Knicks News: Derrick Rose proving to be a good gamble
    (Tuesday, December 06, 2016 6:20:30 AM)

    Tuesday’s Knicks News: Derrick Rose proving to be a good gamble

  • [ESPN] LeBron: No interest in meeting with Phil in NYC
    (Tuesday, December 06, 2016 2:02:37 AM)

    LeBron: No interest in meeting with Phil in NYC

  • [ESPN] Attles on hand for another historic scoring game
    (Tuesday, December 06, 2016 1:53:23 AM)

    Attles on hand for another historic scoring game

  • [ESPN] ‘Good possibility’ Derrick Rose remains with Knicks long-term, his agent says
    (Monday, December 05, 2016 6:33:39 PM)

    ‘Good possibility’ Derrick Rose remains with Knicks long-term, his agent says

  • [NYTimes] Warriors vs. Clippers, and Three Others: The Best N.B.A. Games This Week
    (Monday, December 05, 2016 5:40:09 PM)

    Golden State has only three losses this season, and the Clippers are playing tough defense.

  • [NYTimes] Matt Barnes of Sacramento Kings Sought in Assault Inquiry
    (Tuesday, December 06, 2016 1:22:34 AM)

    Barnes, a forward with the Sacramento Kings, was suspected of being involved in a fight at a Manhattan nightclub.

  • [NY Newsday] Brandon Jennings follows orders and gives it his best shots
    (Monday, December 05, 2016 7:55:05 PM)

    The Knicks’ coaching staff had been telling Brandon Jennings to be more aggressive. They wanted him to make things happen and not be afraid to take open shots.

  • [NYPost] Derrick Williams on awkward exit after opt-out: Knicks never called
    (Monday, December 05, 2016 8:43:25 PM)

    Derrick Williams knows his decision in late June to opt out of the final year of his Knicks’ contract, worth $4.5 million, doesn’t look great now. After signing a modest one-year Heat pact equivalent to his prior Knicks’ deal, Williams has played in just 11-of-20 games for the struggling Heat (7-13), who host the Knicks…

  • [NYPost] Derrick Rose to foes: Good luck when I play with Brandon Jennings
    (Monday, December 05, 2016 5:11:59 PM)

    So firing squad or hanging? That is sort of how Derrick Rose sees the choice for opposing defenders when he is teamed on the floor with Brandon Jennings. So how would you like your butt kicked, by Rose/Jennings or by Carmelo Anthony/Kristaps Porzingis? “It’s hard for the defense where me and Brandon, we’re good off…

  • [NYPost] LeBron’s first step to protesting Donald Trump
    (Monday, December 05, 2016 4:40:04 PM)

    LeBron James is taking his political views to New York City. The star guard headlines a group of Cavaliers who have been exempt from staying at the Trump SoHo hotel when the defending champions head to the Big Apple on Wednesday to play the Knicks, multiple sources told ESPN.com. The rest of the team will stay…

  • [NYPost] Kristaps Porzingis’ odd route to breaking shooting slump
    (Monday, December 05, 2016 1:49:48 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis has been struggling with his shot lately. But the Knicks’ 7-3 power forward believes he has the answer to correct his struggling offense. It’s called defense. “When the game is not going my way offensively I want to lock in defensively and make some big plays on the defensive end, and that will…

  • [NYDN] Derrick Rose proving to Knicks he was well worth the risk
    (Monday, December 05, 2016 7:16:20 PM)

    Derrick Rose was always going to be Phil Jackson’s best move of the summer because of his contract, his history and his potential.

  • [SNY Knicks] Hornacek building competitive culture and Knicks are responding
    (Monday, December 05, 2016 2:00:24 PM)

  • [SNY Knicks] Porzingis makes up for poor shooting night with strong defensive effort
    (Monday, December 05, 2016 8:41:09 AM)

    Kristaps Porzingis made up for his poor shooting night by grabbing 14 rebounds and blocking four shots in the New York Knicks’ 106-98 win over DeMarcus Cousins and the Sacramento Kings on Sunday at Madison Square Garden.

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    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    156 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2016.12.06)”

    1. Z-Man brought up an interesting question in the last thread in connection with Klay Thompson’s 60 point game. Do you all think a 101 point game is a real possibility?

      You would need three things for it to have a real chance:

      1. A fast-paced offense
      2. A guy who shoots a lot of threes and also drives to the basket (so he can also get to the line and stop the clock)
      3. A guy with a bit of a chip on his shoulder

      Kobe Bryant’s famous 81 point game got two of them (well, that game, at least, he shot 13 threes and made 7 of them), but the Lakers weren’t even a particularly fast offense at the time (15th in the league, and their pace that game wasn’t even much faster than their normal rate, although it was faster). So I could see it happen, but few players have quite the chip on their shoulder that Kobe had.

    2. yeah Brian, the way I see it, it would have to be a player who literally owns the team and decides to do it, like Kobe did that time… Wilt took 63 shots to hit 100, and 32 free throws.

      I don’t see any player in the current NBA ever taking more than 50 shots.. maaaybe Westbrook or Harden, but Westbrook is not a good enough 3-point shooter, and Harden would probably be taken out once the win was guaranteed, because if he gets injured Houston is completely done… maybe if his teammates sucked completely and it was a close game despite Harden havin 80 points or so, he would keep going for it

      the absolutely batshit insane part of Klay’s game was that 60 points came in 46 touches, lol.

    3. You’d think that a role player like THJr. would have a career year next to a synergy-winner like Carmelo, but weirdly, he got better on a team with no legit volume scorer. Weird. It’s almost like… it’s almost like…

      This is all kinds of illogical, especially given THCJ’s misguided WoW obsession.

      The WoW believer (or at least THCJ) doesn’t think environment/team/system matters. In his snarky way of saying that playing next to a “volume scorer” doesn’t help players, he’s also saying that THJ is playing better in a different environment. So which is it?

      WoW believers also don’t really believe in players actually, you know, improving. That’s why he was so sure the Knicks were going to be terrible this year, even though there were legitimately believable reasons they might outperform their individual parts’ stats from 2015-16 — such as, KP will continue to improve, Derrick Rose is no longer injured or actually had an offseason to work on his game rather than rehab an injury, etc., and maybe our new coach actually plays a system that has a chance of working in 2016. You know, maybe THJ is playing better because he’s actually gotten better and not because he is or is not playing with the root of all basketball evil Carmelo Anthony?

      (by the way – little known fact that I am in cahoots with Mike K and trying to boost his pageviews by starting daily threads with “Derrick Rose needs an extension” and “WoW is a bunch of bunk” lol. It’s so little known that not even Mike knows it!)

    4. Klay was in the zone, Kerr kinda felt there was no need to score more
      btw, Knicks 5th seed with a potential equal 3rd!

    5. yeah Brian, the way I see it, it would have to be a player who literally owns the team and decides to do it, like Kobe did that time

      I guess it would also have to be a mediocre team, right? Because a great team would likely never let a player do something like that, I don’t think. They’d always pull the guy.

    6. it was the case with the Warriors, I think… great teams won’t allow a star to be injured going for a somewhat meaningless statistic.

      I think it would have to be a pretty bad team with no playoff seeding to fight for, with a legit superstar in the last 10-15 games of the season. that pretty much rules out any Warriors , Cavs player, DeRozan and probably Harden and Westbrook too.

      maybe if Kerr ends up resting the majority of the players after they secured a top seed, someone like Curry or Klay himself could get closer, or Houston has some injuries and Harden is feeling it.

    7. Harden would be a good candidate to do it. He’s ridiculous when he’s hot, pretty much impossible to guard, and he slows the game down by getting fouled a lot. I could see him making like 28 FTs, 15 3’s and 14 2’s.

    8. Modern Harden probably does pass too much in general for him to ever get 101, but he’s definitely got to be the perfect guy of anyone to do it. The fouls, the threes, the fast pace, the chip on his shoulder. He’s got it pretty much all.

    9. yeah, it would need to be a situation where the rockets have injuries to other key players and Harden is super hot against a terrible defense in the same day.

    10. Lebron’s shtick is getting really tiresome. I wish someone would bust him for HGH already so we can move past his era.

    11. Randomb thoughts from last night..

      Klay frickin Thompson! Wow

      And..

      Is it time to start calling Westbrook the best player in the NBA now? He’s been on an amazing tear all season long

    12. I could see Anthony Davis get real crazy hot and have a 100 point game. He’s got the usage rate and the meaningless franchise to do it with.

    13. If New Orleans played fast I could see the brow making a run some night-he’s got shooting range, he gets fouled a ton, and he’s the whole team.

      Edit: I guess I’m not the only one

    14. Great stat from Tom Haberstroh twitter — that Klay dribbled a total of 11 times on his 21 field goals, with just 1.5 seconds per touch in the front court.

      Someone needs to construct something like that for Melo. Catch and shoot Melo = the best Melo.

    15. Someone needs to construct something like that for Melo. Catch and shoot Melo = the best Melo.

      He has to want to buy in.

    16. Still not sure I’d take Westbrook over LeBron, Durant or Leonard. He’s a freak of nature, for sure, and he’s carrying a fairly pedestrian squad to a 14-8 record, but his TS% is a pretty weak .539 and he’s averaging 5.6 turnovers per game. Now of course a lot of that is because he dominates the ball, but he’s never been a great shooter and can be out of control sometimes. And Leonard and LeBron are definitely better defenders.

      Not to take anything away from Westbrook, who is doing unheard of things this season, but I still put him 4th in the player rankings. Just one man’s opinion….

    17. I wouldn’t take Westbrook over a few guys. His triple doubles this season do very little to impress me. OKC with Kanter, Oladipo, and Adams should be on pace to win 60 if Westbrook’s triple doubles were actually meaningful. Yeah he’s stuffing the box score but that team loses in the first round of the playoffs this year, and OKC has some really good players on their roster. No way I take Russ over LeBron, KD, Steph Curry, or Kawhi Leonard.

    18. And if given the chance, I’m taking Point Harden over Russell Westbrook. Neither guy is a good defender but at least James Harden makes his teammates better.

    19. For a team like OKC where they need a guy to basically one man show the offense, I’d still take Harden over Westbrook, but he’s probably the only guy. For a good team there’s a bunch (by which I mean at least 5-10) of guys I’d take ahead of him. He can carry a bigger load than those guys but not as efficiently, he’s not a particularly good shooter and he’s not a particularly good defensive player.

    20. If you accept Giannis as a PG I’d probably put cp3, Harden & Giannis all ahead of Westbrook. Russ is incredible tho.

    21. Great stat from Tom Haberstroh twitter — that Klay dribbled a total of 11 times on his 21 field goals, with just 1.5 seconds per touch in the front court.

      Someone needs to construct something like that for Melo. Catch and shoot Melo = the best Melo.

      To be fair though, Klay cant really dribble. So its not like he deviated from his game. Bad job by the Defense not getting him off his spots. This says more about them then it does Klay. Melo has a complete offensive game. That’s not a bad thing. Lol KB

    22. Damn we play the Cavs on a B2B.

      Hornaceck should rest the starters vs. the posse.

      This is actually probably the best time to catch the Cavs. They’re in a bit of turmoil right now, having lost three in a row before beating the Raptors last night. I could see the Knicks catching them unawares. The Sixers almost beat them before the three-game losing streak began, so they’ve also been playing down to their opponents.

    23. Klay could easily have scored 80 last night if they wouldn’t have given him the fourth quarter off.

      I agree that Melo could learn a lot by watching Klay’s performance, although he could never move the way that Klay does. Klay was perpetual motion.

      Oh, and the beloved Jerian Grant got a start last night for the Bulls with Rondo’s suspension and went 1-7 from the field with one assist. Unlike Rose, he stinks.

    24. I agree that Melo could learn a lot by watching Klay’s performance, although he could never move the way that Klay does. Klay was perpetual motion.

      Another good point. Not everyone could do this. Only Reggie and Ray Allen and KD sometimes. Rip Hamilton was good at it too

    25. I’m completely unmoved by Westbrook. He’s an athletic freak with mediocre scoring efficiency while probably leading the league in TOs. He’s not the superstar people think he is, and he’s not too far off from age 30 where that athleticism starts to decline unless you’re LeBron James.

    26. I’m completely unmoved by Westbrook. He’s an athletic freak with mediocre scoring efficiency while probably leading the league in TOs. He’s not the superstar people think he is, and he’s not too far off from age 30 where that athleticism starts to decline unless you’re LeBron James.

      That’s the thing about Russ. He’s more superhuman than super basketball player. He just out wills people. I’m not sure that is sustainable for the next 5-7 years.

    27. Lebron is definitley turning it up against us for Phil’s comments.

      Also I’d probably take Giannis and CP3 over WB too right now.

    28. But Westbrook’s averaging a triple double as a 6’3″ PG! To me, that is more amazing than if LeBron, Giannis, or even Harden did the same. And his team is winning, so he’s not stat padding on a bad team.

      Speaking of Giannis, that guy’s a match-up nightmare. I have no clue where to play him because his game fits everywhere except maybe center. Where do you stick him in order to fully take advantage of what he can do? I wanna say PF, but he’s not quite strong enough to play there full time.

    29. Lebron is definitley turning it up against us for Phil’s comments.

      While true, I could see that backfiring if he gets too caught up in it all.

    30. This is all kinds of illogical, especially given THCJ’s misguided WoW obsession.

      The WoW believer (or at least THCJ) doesn’t think environment/team/system matters. In his snarky way of saying that playing next to a “volume scorer” doesn’t help players, he’s also saying that THJ is playing better in a different environment. So which is it?

      No, I’m not saying that at all. As always, you continue to be offensively wrong.

      WoW believers also don’t really believe in players actually, you know, improving. That’s why he was so sure the Knicks were going to be terrible this year, even though there were legitimately believable reasons they might outperform their individual parts’ stats from 2015-16 — such as, KP will continue to improve, Derrick Rose is no longer injured or actually had an offseason to work on his game rather than rehab an injury, etc., and maybe our new coach actually plays a system that has a chance of working in 2016.

      Did you even read my prognostication from earlier this year? I don’t think you did, or you’re ignoring that you did, because I explicitly said that I wouldn’t bet the under because there is no way to know whether Porzingis takes an enormous, superstar-level leap this year, or makes a modest gain.

      I mean, have you ever heard of Kevin Durant, who was a mediocre rookie? Or LeBron James, who looked like a teenager for a mere 82 games before taking his game to the next level?

      Are you really so fucking stupid to think that just because I think WP48 is a better statistic at capturing production than PER or PPG or RPM or whatever the fuck your eye-test says, I don’t believe that players can actually fucking improve their game? After seven-plus years on this fucking board talking about how players control their own production, i.e. you can’t turn shit into gold? What the fuck are you smoking?

    31. Russ is top 10 in WS/48 and #1 in the league in BPM and VORP. He’s a top 5 or 6 player.

    32. When there are players with Russ’s volume scoring 20% more efficiently, it shouldn’t be a mystery as to why his all-in-one stats aren’t better. He’s having an MVP-caliber year, though, even if people are too hung up on arbitrary milestones like triple-doubles.

    33. “as always, you continue to be offensively wrong”
      “Are you really so fucking stupid”
      I assume that you don’t see the irony of including these two comments in the same post…

    34. Several comments.

      About the 101 point game. Wilt scored 100 without the benefit of the 3 point line. It seems very much in reach with that. A great spot-up shooter takes 10 shots a quarter and gets hot. It’s doable but the opposing team has to keep it close enough to merit keeping the hot shooter in the game.

      Is Westbrook the best? Right now he’s putting up big numbers and he certainly did the Knicks in. I would say he’s in the conversation and I would call him the MVP favorite.

      The upcoming schedule is absolutely brutal. I’ve written off the game vs the Cavs as a loss and I would (I’m being very serious) rest Melo on national TV so that he’s fresh for the Friday game. The games vs. the Heat, Kings and Lakers are the winnable games in this stretch. I would start Baker, Sasha, Lance, Ndour and Parm vs. Cleveland. Just add 1 to the “L” column and move forward.

    35. Despite Russ’s ridiculous numbers, I’m still taking KD, LeBron, Steph, Kawhi, AD, James Harden, CP3, and Giannis over him today.

    36. Enes Kanter was the biggest reason we lost to OKC, not Russell Westbrook. You see how that works? Russ went 9 for 23, spent no time guarding Derrick Rose, and had 7 turnovers against us, but because narrative he’s given all the credit. Enes Kanter had 6 OREB and 3 blocks and went 12 for 17 from the field. That’s why we lost.

    37. Giannis baby. Imagine if the Process picked him over MCW. Another terrible Hinkie pick. You cant tank and then draft shittily

    38. I’m confident Giannis will be a Knick after his four year deal is up with Milwaukee. The Knicks win the championship in 2022.

    39. until LeBron retires or drops off a cliff, I’m not crowning anyone else “the best player in the league”.

      Westbrook is a top 10 player in the league for sure and if he shot better from 3 he would probably be even a top 3 player, but right now for me he’s in the 5 to 10 range.

      definitely a top 3 most enjoyable player to watch, tho.

    40. I’m with Bruno. Lebron has lower productivity stats than KD, CO3, Kawhi, etc. But given how he coasts through the regular season and how he managed to beat Golden State, a top 3 team of all time, almost single handedly, I will not cede the moniker of best player until he gives me reason to.

      There is no one like Lebron at the top his game. I’m of the opinion that he’s the greatest of all time.

    41. until LeBron retires or drops off a cliff, I’m not crowning anyone else “the best player in the league”.

      I felt like I was an island here amid all the Curry love.

    42. I do think Curry is an amazing player and a better scorer than LeBron, but LeBron is better in every other aspect of the game and is doing it in his 14th season… he has a 43.8 ast% this season, for god’s sake lol.

      I don’t know if LeBron is or will ever be better than Jordan, but he’s the one player I think could match Wilt Chamberlain in the sense that he can be great at anything he wants… if he decides he’s a passer and a initiator, he could average 15 assists; if he decides he’s gonna score 50 no matter what, he’s doing it, and so on.

    43. Russ went 9 for 23, spent no time guarding Derrick Rose, and had 7 turnovers against us, but because narrative he’s given all the credit.

      Maybe in that one game Enes Kanter played a bigger role in them winning, but you’re completely underrating how dependent everybody on that team is on Russ to get them shots. Dipo is the only other guy on the team that can create a shot for himself and he’s struggled to do so this year.

      Guys like Roberson, Adams, Grant, Morrow, Kanter, Sabonis, etc. only eat off of direct assists from Westbrook or from ball movement initiated by Russ commanding the attention of multiple defenders. He’s single handedly fueling their ridiculous pace this year which has helped to mask their severe deficiencies to consistently generate buckets against a set defense.

      Russ is at about league average scoring efficiency on 41.0 USG%! That’s incredibly valuable for a team that has 1 other guy that can create a shot for themselves. On top of that he is averaging 14.8 rebounds and 15.4 assists per 100 possessions and he has a better assist/TO ratio than Giannis and roughly on par with Harden.

      When you’re carrying the type of offensive work loads Russ and Harden are this year, I don’t really expect you to be maxing out on effort defensively.

    44. “Get a big block or steal and run a fast break. That’s how I get going, so that’s my mentality when the shot’s not falling,” said Porzingis

      Remember when I said a few threads ago that elite players find other ways to have an effect when their shots aren’t falling? KP gets it. Once he puts it all together, he’s gonna be a transcendent player. I have no doubt. Thank you, Phil. You may not recognize it because of all the press directed at the negative, but you have saved this franchise by drafting KP.

    45. Remember when I said a few threads ago that elite players find other ways to have an effect when their shots aren’t falling? KP gets it. Once he puts it all together, he’s gonna be a transcendent player. I have no doubt.

      Yeah, last game against the Kings was my favorite Porzingis game because he had a huge impact without having a good night from the field. When he cleans the defensive glass, makes good rotations and protects the rim like that it changes our level on defense so much.

    46. I’m confident Giannis will be a Knick after his four year deal is up with Milwaukee. The Knicks win the championship in 2022.

      KP, KAT, & GIANNIS 2021

      TRIPLET TOWERS

    47. Lmao at Jowles backing out of his preseason under pick because of the Porzingis superstar caveat…KP has a -1.3 PoP48 and a .57 WS/48, making him the second least productive full-time rotational player on the Knicks behind Melo.

    48. please make it happen, I will forget all the pain and suffering this franchise put me through if we get the greek freak.

    49. @61

      are you sure?

      basketball reference has Porzingis with a .153 WS/48 this season, which makes him the most productive player in the roster, excluding Plumlee’s 25 minutes.

    50. Did you even read my prognostication from earlier this year? I don’t think you did, or you’re ignoring that you did, because I explicitly said that I wouldn’t bet the under because there is no way to know whether Porzingis takes an enormous, superstar-level leap this year, or makes a modest gain.

      I was mostly just trolling you with that whole comment to stir the pot, but for Pete’s sake how many times did you say your wallet was just itching to go to Vegas and bet the under?! And then ruruland would say I know a bookie that you can place your bet with so bring it on? Like 5-10x maybe after the Rose trade?

      And re:your THJ comment – you’ve said over and over again over those 7 years I’ve been posting here that system doesn’t matter, coach doesn’t matter (other than Pop and Phil Jackson), and that players are responsible for their own production. And now you say THJ got better after he went to Atlanta and away from Melo. So which is it again? They ARE responsible for their own production, or environment/system/teammates matter?

      Actually i don’t even want to know because I don’t really want to start a flame war. So you’re right.

    51. LMAO i just remembered that THCJ’s actual handle here was “Cock Jowles, Betting the Under in 2017” for 3 freaking months after the Rose trade.

      But sure, you explicitly said you wouldn’t bet the under because of Porzingis.

      Lmao at Jowles backing out of his preseason under pick because of the Porzingis superstar caveat…KP has a -1.3 PoP48 and a .57 WS/48, making him the second least productive full-time rotational player on the Knicks behind Melo.

      I’m sure the answer to this has something to do with Tyson Chandler.

    52. I would start Baker, Sasha, Lance, Ndour and Parm vs. Cleveland. Just add 1 to the “L” column and move forward.

      I think if I was a fan attending the game and spending a week’s paycheck I might disagree with you.

    53. KP has a -1.3 PoP48 and a .57 WS/48, making him the second least productive full-time rotational player on the Knicks behind Melo.

      And behind Derrick Rose too. As I explained yesterday, Rose has objectively stopped making Kristaps better with his selfish heroball chucking.

    54. Nah, he didn’t bet the under because the line was too low and because the injury risk with Rose was high enough that the Knicks could get the over if he just got hurt early enough in the season.

    55. He probably meant WP48.

      And the thing with players being dependent on a high usage guy to get them shots is somebody can always step up and take a lot of shots. Russell Westbrook is absolutely a top 10 player in this league, but to me he’s tenth. Not everybody who gets put in Oladipo, Kanter, and Adams’ shoes can be as productive as those guys have been in their roles. Kanter is also currently averaging a .611 TS% on a 26.2% USG. Oladipo, Adams, and Kanter are all very important to what OKC is doing this year. It’s not like those guys would be pumpkins if they didn’t play with Russ.

      All things considered I cannot stand Russell Westbrook. I think he’s more reckless and overpowering than skilled, and he’s a super chuck. I don’t like those kind of guys.

    56. @69 At least Melo had 13 boards. :)

      I remember idiots like Cowherd actually criticized Melo for having a 62 pt 13 reb 0 assist 0 turnover game. That was unbelievable

    57. Yeah if you score 63 points without taking like 70 shots it’s okay if you didn’t pass much.

    58. There is no one like Lebron at the top his game. I’m of the opinion that he’s the greatest of all time.

      The playoff run in ’09 was better than anything Jordan ever did, which is amazing because Jordan’s record in the Pippen-era postseason is absurdly, freakishly good. He had a postseason ORtg greater than 120 five times (!) in his career.

    59. I remember idiots like Cowherd actually criticized Melo for having a 62 pt 13 reb 0 assist 0 turnover game. That was unbelievable

      And what, three years after that game, we’re still talking about Cowherd, increasing his brand visibility. He’s a human parasite.

    60. If you think about the Melo 62 and the Kobe 81, how the hell were they allowed to do that? At least KD and Steph kept the constant double off of Klay. Why the hell didn’t the Raptors and Bobcats double and triple team Melo and Kobe? Those two teams weren’t filled with great scorers. Weird shit man

    61. It’s not like those guys would be pumpkins if they didn’t play with Russ.

      They can’t increase their playmaking without him on the floor for the team as a whole to function offensively. On the other hand as long as Westbrook is on, the offense is damn near elite regardless of which of those 3 you listed is off. I would venture to guess that the same holds true for everybody on the roster.

      w/ Kanter ON and Westbrook OFF: 97.3 ORtg
      w/Oladipo ON and Westbrook OFF: 96.3 ORtg
      w/Adams ON and Westbrook OFF: 97.1 ORtg

      w/ Westbrook ON and Kanter OFF: 109.9 ORtg
      w/ Westbrook ON and Oladipo OFF: 112.0 ORtg
      w/ Westbrook ON and Adams OFF: 115.4 ORtg

      Without him that team is competing for the worst record in the league. He’s every bit as impactful as Harden, though Harden’s having a better season and deserves the MVP at this stage.

    62. @77 No they lost to Orlando in the ECF…stopping the dream Kobe Lebron finals. You are thinking of 2010 when he took his jersey off at theend of the game then went to Miami

    63. Make excuses Jowles. Injuries or whatever. The fact is you talk a big game about hating on the Knicks and thinking we’re gonna suck, changing your user name to “betting the under” but you didn’t actually pull the trigger so you didn’t put your money where you incredibly large mouth is.

    64. @er

      They get over 43 wins or more I’m a happy man. Houston over 42.5 and Charlotte over 39.5 were my two over/under bets for the season. Charlotte should get there as long as Kemba is good to go, but the East is so tight that almost all these games from 3-10 in the conference are a fucking coin flip, so who knows?

    65. The playoff run in ’09 was better than anything Jordan ever did, which is amazing because Jordan’s record in the Pippen-era postseason is absurdly, freakishly good. He had a postseason ORtg greater than 120 five times (!) in his career.

      I’ve looked at Lebron’s playoff stats a few times, and every time I look at them my eyes pop out of my head. His 2008-2009 run he put up a .400 WS/48, +18.2 BPM, with 30/8/6 per 36 on a .618 TS% and 36.4 USG%

      Lol like how is he human

    66. Right. Which is why I think people who think what he did And KD did are in the same boat.

      That man was a supernova in the playoffs but his management was awful. KD had Westbrook and Harden. Then he left that team to join the best team in bball. The heat were not that, they had to build that. Gtfoh

    67. Which is why I think people who think what he did And KD did are in the same boat.

      Which is why I think people who think what he did And KD did are in the same boat are morons*

    68. The fact is you talk a big game about hating on the Knicks and thinking we’re gonna suck, changing your user name to “betting the under” but you didn’t actually pull the trigger so you didn’t put your money where you incredibly large mouth is.

      I’m not a moron, so I don’t risk/waste money to satisfy the keyboard warriors who misrepresent me. I said that optimistically, this team could win 41-43 games, with 37 more likely. Right now, they’ve got a pythag. win expectancy of 37 wins and are on pace for 45. They’re virtually right where I said they’d be.

      But you’re probably a person who thinks that pythag. wins are made-up and useless, so haha whatever.

    69. Should be an interesting game tonight. The Heat have pretty much been as good as the Knicks, but they’re 7-13 and we’re 11-9. We’ve sucked on the road and Miami have been awful at home. Something’s gotta give

    70. The Heat are kind of the mirror image of us: cruddy offense, better than expected defense.

      The bad news for us is that the top two saboteurs of the Miami offense, Dion Waiters and Justise Winslow, will not be playing.

    71. I don’t think they’re useless. Just that you don’t know when to stop using them!

      And whatever Jowles. You changed your user name to “betting the under” and then didn’t place the bet. make your excuses. You talk a big talk like you’re this expert but when it comes down to it, you don’t know as much as you think you do.

    72. And whatever Jowles. You changed your user name to “betting the under” and then didn’t place the bet. make your excuses. You talk a big talk like you’re this expert but when it comes down to it, you don’t know as much as you think you do.

      Wait, so Vegas setting a line that sits somewhere between their current pythag. record and actual record isn’t an indication that I made a smart decision to not place a bet? Vegas is going to fleece a lot of people this year on that line. It’s scary good, but that’s to be expected.

      Wanna come over and play poker sometime? Maybe blackjack? I’d like to take all of your money, smart guy.

    73. Also, funny that you put down your fellow posters by calling them “keyboard warriors” when you’re the one who’s on here all day every day trying to prove how right you are.

    74. And yeah, when pythag wins are wrong about our current record then I’m probably gonna think they may not be as accurate as you think they are.

      Hey, look the Knicks won 48 games this year and made the playoffs.

      Yeah but their pythag was only 42 wins.

      This is how you think.

    75. Tom Haberstroh ? @tomhaberstroh
      Klay dribbled 11 times on his 21 field goals. ELEVEN. Had ball for 1.5 seconds per touch in the frontcourt.

      What. The. Shit.

    76. About the 101 point game. Wilt scored 100 without the benefit of the 3 point line. It seems very much in reach with that. A great spot-up shooter takes 10 shots a quarter and gets hot. It’s doable but the opposing team has to keep it close enough to merit keeping the hot shooter in the game.

      The key thing is the last thing I mentioned about the chip on the shoulder. You can’t just “get” 100 points. You have to absolutely want it and make it the total focus of your game. Like having your teammates feed you for fouls in, like, the third quarter to stop the clock in the third quarter. Philly pulled off every last trick that they could to get Wilt to 100 in that game. I find it hard to believe that any NBA team would do that nowadays. Things were a lot looser back then. Dudes would smoke cigarettes before games.

      The upcoming schedule is absolutely brutal. I’ve written off the game vs the Cavs as a loss and I would (I’m being very serious) rest Melo on national TV so that he’s fresh for the Friday game. The games vs. the Heat, Kings and Lakers are the winnable games in this stretch. I would start Baker, Sasha, Lance, Ndour and Parm vs. Cleveland. Just add 1 to the “L” column and move forward.

      I’m certainly not saying that they’ll beat Cleveland, as that’d be silly, but I do think you’re underselling their chances a bit. Cleveland almost lost to the Sixers recently. The Sixers!! But yes, the Cavs will likely win. I just don’t think it’s like, say, a matchup against the Warriors or something like that. There, the Knicks are screwed. :)

    77. Citing a disparity between Pythag record and actual record 20 games in as evidence of Pythag record being fundamentally flawed might be the low point of this board

    78. And yeah, when pythag wins are wrong about our current record then I’m probably gonna think they may not be as accurate as you think they are.

      You are looking at this in a rockheaded way. Of course Pythag Wins aren’t always going to be “right,” that’s the reason they exist. If you win a lot of close games that are basically coin flip type games, and you lose a lot of games that are blowouts, there’s a pretty good chance your actual win total is going to regress in the direction of your Pythag total at the end of the day. Sometimes it doesn’t! Sometimes teams defy their Pythag predictions over the course of a season! Actually, that happens every single season as a matter of fact, in every single sport. In both directions, too! Some teams end up worse than their Pythag, and some teams outperform it.

      But that does not mean Pythag projections are useless– in fact, they are very useful for predicting things. If you’re a baseball team and you’re 5 games over .500 in July but you have allowed 50 more runs than you have scored, the odds are pretty high that you’re not going to stay over .500 for long.

    79. @ Dough

      Klay had the ball for about 90 sec, total. In the other 60-point games of the SportVU era, Kobe had it for 400, Bron for 390, and Melo 240.
      — Richard Yannow (@RichardYannow) December 6, 2016

    80. Hey, look the Knicks won 48 games this year and made the playoffs.

      Yeah but their pythag was only 42 wins.

      This is how you think.

      I would think, “Did they win a lot of games on last-possession shots? Did they have a huge number of blowout losses during a slump or period of heavy injuries?”

      I wouldn’t think what you think, as I have a functional brain.

    81. Sometimes teams defy their Pythag predictions over the course of a season! Actually, that happens every single season as a matter of fact, in every single sport. In both directions, too! Some teams end up worse than their Pythag, and some teams outperform it.

      But that does not mean Pythag projections are useless– in fact, they are very useful for predicting things. If you’re a baseball team and you’re 5 games over .500 in July but you have allowed 50 more runs than you have scored, the odds are pretty high that you’re not going to stay over .500 for long.

      I understand that Pythag projections are very useful for baseball. However, basketball has more chance involved because of 82 games vs. 162, and because we can’t break it down into a series of discrete pitch-by-pitch events. Do Pythag projections lose any predicting power when applied to basketball?

    82. I think if I was a fan attending the game and spending a week’s paycheck I might disagree with you.

      That’s the argument folks make when Popovich sent Duncan, Ginobli and Parker home. He still did it – and won championships.

    83. I wouldn’t think what you think, as I have a functional brain.

      Also, a bleach-free digestive system.

    84. That’s the argument folks make when Popovich sent Duncan, Ginobli and Parker home. He still did it – and won championships.

      Yeah but the fans miss those games. Especially road fans

    85. I understand that Pythag projections are very useful for baseball. However, basketball has more chance involved because of 82 games vs. 162, and because we can’t break it down into a series of discrete pitch-by-pitch events. Do Pythag projections lose any predicting power when applied to basketball?

      I think the biggest disparity last year was the Warriors (65 pythag vs, well, you know), which we can all agree was an exceptional situation in many ways. Almost all teams wind up within 3 wins either direction, with many closer than that or even exactly equal.

      And yeah, when pythag wins are wrong about our current record then I’m probably gonna think they may not be as accurate as you think they are.

      Hey, look the Knicks won 48 games this year and made the playoffs.

      Yeah but their pythag was only 42 wins.

      I still can’t wrap my mind around this. 20 games!!!!!!!!!!!

    86. Philly pulled off every last trick that they could to get Wilt to 100 in that game. I find it hard to believe that any NBA team would do that nowadays. Things were a lot looser back then. Dudes would smoke cigarettes before games.

      I’m sure that you’re correct, but Clay’s 60 would be 52 because he made 8 three-pointers. In watching clips of the game, the Pacers did not overplay or double Clay.
      http://nbatitlechase.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Lebron-James-With-A-Cigarette-In-His-Mouth.jpg

      I’m certainly not saying that they’ll beat Cleveland, as that’d be silly, but I do think you’re underselling their chances a bit.

      They did just lose JR (is that really a loss?) but LeBron has a chip on his posse’s shoulder and will be looking to make Clay appear weak.

    87. Yeah Cleveland will be blowing us out tomorrow. LeBron is that kind of a douche.

    88. Truthfully it would be unbelievably awesome if we beat the Cavs and LeBron had to wear that L on his sleeve, but there’s no way LeBron doesn’t come out on fire. He’s looking to embarrass us.

    89. Here are the deviations from last year:

      GSW +5
      SAS +3
      CLE +3
      OKC +7
      TOR +6
      LAC -2
      ATL -5
      MIA +1
      CHA -2
      BOS -3
      IND -2
      POR 0
      DET +1
      DAL +2
      CHI +6
      MEM +8
      HOU -1
      UTA -7
      ORL -1
      DEN +2
      MIL +5
      SAC 0
      NYK 0
      NOH +1
      MIN -1
      BRK +2
      LAL +3
      PHI -3

      This is the ^16.5 method used by Hollinger. Dean Oliver’s exponent is a shade under 14.

      Since wins are zero-sum, a single buzzer-beater affects two teams’ W/L record.

    90. Relying on or using pythagorean wins in such a small sample size seems like folly if you ask me. The Knicks lost their 1st game to the Cavs by 29 points and to the Rockets a few days later by 19 points, while playing with a starting lineup that had basically just met each other for the first time that day. Those 2 games account for the entirety (and more) of the Knicks’ negative scoring margin.

    91. Almost all teams wind up within 3 wins either direction, with many closer than that or even exactly equal.

      So, going off noblefacehumper’s +/- 3 win guideline and Jowles’ data, last year’s outliers are:

      Overachieving:
      Warriors, Thunder, Raptors, Bulls, Grizz, Bucks

      Underachieving:
      Hawks, Jazz

      Looking at the predictive power of Pythag from last season is affected by roster turnover. I think out of all those teams, only Toronto and Milwaukee didn’t have major FA acquisitions or exits. But they did have players come back that were lost to injury: Carroll and Middleton, respectively.

      I think the deviation data is helpful, but I’m not sure what to use it for. All the outliers’ rosters look different this year.

    92. Truthfully it would be unbelievably awesome if we beat the Cavs and LeBron had to wear that L on his sleeve, but there’s no way LeBron doesn’t come out on fire. He’s looking to embarrass us.

      I would love to make LeBron and his blowhard scion, Shumpert, wear that L. It would be oh, so great if it was blowout too. But I’m entrenched in reality.

    93. I think the deviation data is helpful, but I’m not sure what to use it for. All the outliers’ rosters look different this year.

      I’d imagine that the deviations are mostly random. In baseball, it seems that really good bullpens can lead to recurring over-achievement, but I don’t think there’s a similar thing in the NBA. Even late game clutch shooting is essentially a coin toss. Melo had some insanely high shooting percentage at the end of the game while with Denver and then was the opposite the last five years or so with the Knicks. So I think it’s close to just being random.

    94. This Motiejunas situation is odd in so many ways. Did he/his agent (BJ Armstrong) not understand restricted free agency? What makes teams think he’s even good? I’ve always thought restricted free agency was stupid and they should either let players just become UFAs or put in place an arbitration system a la the MLB, but this is the collectively bargained system and Motiejunas/Armstrong had to know that.

    95. You know, I like a good cat fight as much as th next guy, but this is some serious nerdy, hormonal shit.

      And head to head in their prime I kind of think Lebron crushes Jordan.
      But maybe Jordan is far enough in the past that I don’t remember how great he was.
      Lebron can do what Jordan could, but he’s much bigger and stronger.
      And Lebron never had a Pippen.

    96. That article made me like Shumpert more, especially the note about how he’d skip a Trump White House championship celebration. Phil Jackson trashed him and JR for no reason after the trade, and trashed LeBron for no reason a few weeks ago. I’d think it was weird if Shumpert had a nice thing to say about the guy.

    97. “Harden probably passes too often tbh.”

      HA – I never thought that phrase could be uttered but it might actually be true this year

    98. He’s averaging almost 12 assists a game! Dude just accepted his new role and decided to kill at it.

    99. A certain handsome poster on this very message board was one of the first to suggest that Mr. Pringles and James Harden would be a good match.

    100. And Lebron never had a Pippen.

      Yeah, he just had a Wade.

      Yeah, obviously it’s not the same, but Lebron has had some very talented teammates on Miami and this incarnation of the Cavs.

    101. Phil Jackson trashed him and JR for no reason after the trade, and trashed LeBron for no reason a few weeks ago.

      He didn’t ever trash Shumpert. That’s completely false. Shumpert is a fucking blowhard who thinks he’s a star, but has never played at a level warranting that kind of status. Fuck him.

    102. Hes always been a great passer. That’s why he was actually the back up point guard on the Thunder teams if you looked at how that big 3 played together.

      His assist rate the finals year was 19.3% and its been rising each year. This year it is 52.1%!!!!

    103. 127 referring to Harden.

      Shumpert is a fucking blowhard who thinks he’s a star, but has never played at a level warranting that kind of status. Fuck him.

      This is fair.

    104. I like shump well enough outside of basketball related stuff even if he seems a bit into himself

      Phil’s a prick so I don’t really care if he’s getting a bad shake

    105. Shump’s definitely got an inflated ego and there’s no way he would be earning the money he is if he didn’t get sent to Cleveland. So Phil did him a massive favor in trading him. Same for JR.

      On the other hand, if someone thinks Phil Jackson should just shut the fuck up, I get that.

    106. “Also, Shump and Tim [Hardaway Jr.] were regressing, so I decided to meet with them separately and try to find out what, if anything, was bothering them.”

      Shumpert was next in line. “After he suffered a hip injury in Dallas, his game went rapidly downhill. Did he have any other issues to explain his decline? He said, ‘No. I don’t know what has gone wrong with my game.’ As with J. R., nothing got resolved.”

      Shumpert was another problem. “I like Shump,” says Jackson, “but he has a very loud, big personality. It was difficult for most of the other guys to deal with, especially if things don’t go well for him or the team.”

      Yeah, I was just completely wrong. Just lovely things to hear about yourself through the media from your former employer. Totally warranted. Phil Jackson is amazing and Shumpert has no reason whatsoever to not like him.

    107. Phil’s our Jackass! Only we get to call him an Jackass!

      Shumpert get credit for

      1) having a SMOKING wife (who he cheated on according to Media reports
      2) Delivering their baby in their bathroom

      Otherwise, he’s an average player with a big head (and I’m not referring to whatever that is on top of his fat head either!)

    108. Yeah, I was just completely wrong. Just lovely things to hear about yourself through the media from your former employer. Totally warranted. Phil Jackson is amazing and Shumpert has no reason whatsoever to not like him.

      The truth hurts. I could care less about Shumpert. I find it amusing how much more well liked Shumpert is around here now that he’s no longer a Knick. Amazing phenomenon.

      Also revealing he had a conversation with Shumpert in which nothing of relevance was revealed isn’t some hurtful thing.

    109. It’s generally considered bad form to talk about a former employee’s flaws to national media outlets when he’s still in the same industry as you, or galaxy as you, for that matter.

    110. It’s generally considered bad form to talk about a former employee’s flaws to national media outlets when he’s still in the same industry as you, or galaxy as you, for that matter.

      The latter part of that I see being hurtful and I honestly must have missed that, but the initial part about having a convo with Shump seems fairly innocuous to me.

    111. Literally no other GMs do this shit. Even when there is obviously a chemistry/character problem and everyone knows it, executives stay diplomatic because it’s both self-serving and the fucking decent thing to do. Phil Jackson does not do that. He volunteered that Shumpert “has a very loud, big personality. It was difficult for most of the other guys to deal with.” The extent to which that is true or false makes no difference whatsoever. Shumpert is right to take issue with it, it’s highly abnormal in this, or any other, field.

    112. Literally no other GMs do this shit.

      Pat Riley questioned Lebron James’ manhood when he was entering free agency.

      And again I wasn’t aware of the 2nd piece which I understand Shump having an issue with. I don’t particularly care about this beef, but if Shump has a bone to pick. fair enough.

      define: apologism

      Let us know when you figure out how to place a sports bet Jowles.

    113. Jowles, you’re also in the running for worst poster here. Manners, or lack thereof, play into it too.

    114. And in this corner….

      I’m sorry to have brought Shump’s name up and to have caused this rift between besties.

      @138 – I’m with Lavor when you say “Literally no other GMs do this shit”. That’s just wrong. The list is long but I don’t have the time to scour the Interweb thingy to prove it. But you’re right when you say “Shumpert is right to take issue with it”. Yes, he can take issue with anything he wants to.

      But think about it. Was it a secret? I say no because I remember him as being the loudest and most boisterous player on the team. He had this whole write-and-erase-the-other-team-name ritual at the start of every game. He sulked. He groaned. It was no secret. He couldn’t handle the Knicks drafting THJ. So, yeah. Thumbs up to freedom of speech, but it works both ways.

    115. We shouldn’t rest all of our starters against the Cavs. Playing against good teams makes us a better team. Plus we might actually beat them.

    116. @143

      Yeah, but thenoblefacehumper’s right in that even if everybody knows it, Phil is acting out of step when he puts it out there himself. Phil’s always been unorthodox so I doubt he gives a shit and I don’t, but Shump is justified in being peeved by that quote from Phil.

    117. hmmmmm…the posts today taste a little ummmmm salty…easy you pervs, i know where your mind is going with that…

      so, i was going to nba stats. com to you know – provide a little insight into tonight’s matchup with the heat; and, i came to the sobering realization – i have no fucking clue as to what any of that shit really means…

      please can someone just tell me if we’re gonna win tonight???

    118. A certain handsome poster on this very message board was one of the first to suggest that Mr. Pringles and James Harden would be a good match.

      No I did not! Lies!

      I wish Phil would just shut up, but it’s not that big of a deal. Shump’s a grown man. Just keep finding more KPs and Willys and Kuzes and Holidays.

    119. @145 – Sure. I agree. Freedom of lip-flapping and all that. I’m free to cross Shump off my Season’s Greetings card list too.

    120. Man the last two days have been so salty here you could comfortably float on your back in the comments.

      On Phil’s Shump comments, I don’t think they were necessarily that bad, but probably better just to avoid making comments about players no longer on your team.

      Should be an interesting matchup today. Maybe it’s just because there is no Bosh or Wade anymore, but this Miami team just seems to be a weird mishmash of players at the moment.

    121. So Jowles, let me get this straight, you actually called yourself “Betting the Under” for several months straight on on a board filled with poster who are men who love sports, didn’t actually make a bet and didn’t expect to be called on it? That’s like calling yourself the “the Human Dunkathon” before a basketball game and then passing to someone else every time you are near the basket. It doesn’t make any difference if you say the flow of the game meant you should pass or even if that is true; you are still going to get called on it. If it’s expected, you shouldn’t be upset about it, it’s part of the game.

    122. so, not only do i suck at stats – not much a betting fan either (my value to the site i believe lies in my innate ability to look into the fractured psyche – half zen, half troll – of our intrepid gm)…but, i see we have a + 2 next to our team name on tonight’s matchup…

      i get how we’re not so terrific on the road – but, the heat aren’t so hot there – or, really anywhere this year…

      who’s gonna beat us – whiteside, naw – i think KOQ and noah can keep him around 20 and 15 (if whiteside starts going off – noah will just elbow him in the head)…dragic, i’m fairly confident rose will outplay him tonight…mcroberts – hmmmmm, he may be a bit of an issue…ellington, maybe gets lucky and goes for double digits…

      i don’t think miami will hit 100 tonight – i see us winning by at least a half dozen points or so…

    123. So Jowles, let me get this straight, you actually called yourself “Betting the Under” for several months straight on on a board filled with poster who are men who love sports, didn’t actually make a bet and didn’t expect to be called on it?

      Oh, I still took the under, but I’m not enough of a total fucking moron to bet the under at 39.5 when I think the team’s going to win 37. I’ve never been that stupid. I don’t even think I would have made that bet as a toddler, so what makes you think I’d do that bet to save face with people who are habitually brain-dead about basketball like lavor postell and Frank?

    124. What?

      Do you really think when I say the Knicks will win 37, I say that with 100% certainty? Get lost, you fucking hack.

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