Knicks Morning News (2024.05.27)

DRed, I don’t get why you seem so outraged by comparing Brunson and Kyrie, again, ignoring their personalities. Kyrie is an 8-time all-star, 3-time all-NBA with a career BPM of 4.5, including two seasons of above 7.0. In his championship year, he put up a 6.0 BPM in the playoffs on a 30.4% usage.

He’s an injury-prone head case who I would never want on my team. But his sheer talent is undeniable.

The thing with Kyrie is that it has been impossible to dissociate his personality to his game, because it affected his game so much in both Boston and Brooklyn. Nobody expected him to cut all that shit off and become a model guy who mentors Luka and adapted to him perfectly. This version of Kyrie right now playing is just a fantastic player.

As much as it pains me, I do think credit should also be given to Jason Kidd, who finally seems to have figured it out.

kyrie’s ~1100 minutes since the trade without luka on have been 40, 10 and 3 tov per 100 with a ts of 62.8. this looks a lot like jalen this year at 41, 10, 3 and 59.2. the mavs offense with just kyrie of 122.1 has also been similar the knicks this year with jalen on of 122.9, though of course those numbers are heavily confounded.

obviously kyrie’s usage drops off a ton without luka and he goes from looking like jalen this year to colin sexton or cj mccollum. in fact it’s eerily similar to the drop off jalen saw when he played with and without luka, except jalen was at a lower absolute level as he wasn’t yet 2024 jalen.

i don’t actually think luka and kyrie have surprised a ton on the upside in terms of their offensive synergies. but it does seem like playing them both has allowed them to keep the offense similar to a luka alone or kyrie alone offense while playing three defense-centric guys. and now that they have decent options for those guys that matters a lot.

i think if you’re the mavs this year and could have either jalen or kyrie you probably take kyrie. they’re pretty similar as the tip of the spear and kyrie is probably a slightly better pairing with luka.

i’m with consensus that the celtics are still a pretty strong favorite against them.

Well put, Bruno. And I agree that Jason Kidd deserves credit.

I’ve always been one to believe in redemption, and to respect those who overcome character flaws and mistakes. Kidd has done some reprehensible shit, both personally and professionally, but he seems to be toeing the line these days. The one thing I always felt about Kidd is that he has among the smartest basketball minds of all time. He’s doing a phenomenal job this year, no two ways about it.

Thanks pt, maybe reading this will mellow DRed out a bit.

“i’m with consensus that the celtics are still a pretty strong favorite against them.”

Agreed. If rooting for the Mavs, one has to hope for an upset similar to what LeBron and Kyrie pulled off in 2016.

I think the most crucial thing for any chance the Mavs might have against the Celtics is finishing Minnesota with a sweep. They absolutely need to let Luka rest his knee. If he’s healthy he’s the best player in the series and they’ll have a real chance, the Celtics came into the Indiana series rusty and a step slow and should have lost two games if it weren’t for unreal meltdowns from Indiana… those slow starts won’t end the same way against a Dallas team that is able to perform much better in the clutch.

It’s cute that y’all conclude “Kyrie must have miraculously changed everything about his intrinsic self” instead of “maybe my idea of him was totally wrong”. Occam’s razor be damned.

One thing is for sure, though: you can’t say no one saw this coming.

i’m with consensus that the celtics are still a pretty strong favorite against them.

I wonder if it will be Kyrie or Luka that misses the series with injury.

The biggest difference between LeBron and Luka is on the defensive end. I just don’t see how Dallas can stop the C’s from scoring.

If anyone thought that Kyrie was not this good of a player when healthy and engaged, they were wrong. He’s an 8X all-star and HOF-caliber player (I think he gets in but some may vote against him for reasons. Whatever.)

If anyone thought they wanted no part of poor, misunderstood Kyrie on the Knicks even at a good price because they felt he was an injury-prone reprehensible asshole, there is no right or wrong to that. It’s just a personal preference. Count me among those who felt that way, and still do.

James Harden is incredibly gifted as a player and probably has something left in the tank. I want no part of him on my team. Personal preference.

Miles Bridges is an excellent player who should be available at a good price. I want no part of him on my team. Personal preference.

The one thing an inveterate Celtics-hater like me will have to admit, it’s that this particular Celtics team is objectively harder to hate than previous versions. Jrue is maybe the nicest, most professional player in the sport. Derrick White and Al Horford play the right way. Tatum, Brown, and KP are all annoying in their own way, but no match for Pierce and Garnett. There’s no ML Carr on the bench.

I will root against them just as hard as always, but can at least rationally believe that they are a deserving team who has paid its dues.

For the record, I think Kyrie is a mildly better basketball player than Brunson. They create their own shots differently, but I think I’d rather Kyrie take the last shot. Also, when he puts his mind to it, imo, Kyrie is a better defender.

I think the Kyrie of the last few years is a lot better than the version earlier in his career. I thought he was overrated early on.

I’d still way rather have Brunson on my team. Kyrie is happy and productive right now because things are going so well. That doesn’t mean he’s incapable of melting down in the future if they start losing and he takes any heat from media and fans. I have no such worries with Brunson.

Brunson is five or six years younger and an exemplary human being. I agree they are about equal on the court at the moment. No question who would be higher on the trade value chart

The thought of Kyrie instead of Brunson is unappealing but the thought of Kyrie next to Brunson certainly excited me last summer. It became moot once Dallas offered him the max, though.

The next logical step if I was open to Brunson and Kyrie should be to advocate for Mitchell. For some reason I’m not quite there, but watching the Mavs success is helping.

We could reasonably clone this Mavs team with Brunson & Mitchell doing the Luka/Kyrie thing, Hart & OG being suped-up versions of Jones & Washington, and Mitch/Hartenstein occupying the Gafford/Lively roles. Plus we’d have Donte in the microwave scorer off the bench role.

I still like the Bridges fantasy more.

Actually a really good question, Owen. I guess you’ve answered it for yourself, but wondering what others think the league would consider as higher on the trade value chart — a transcendent likely hall of fame scorer in his prime who has proven his mettle in the fire repeatedly but who has also shown himself to be a cancer at times (but at the moment is proving himself again as a winner and a teammate), vs. someone with a good year and then a transcendent year but little track record, but is much younger and an exemplary human being.

I mean I know who *I* would want and it’s not even close, but that’s me.

“I mean I know who *I* would want and it’s not even close, but that’s me.”

Thankfully it’s no longer an issue. Seems like neither Brunson nor Kyrie are going anywhere anytime soon. Whatever Kyrie’s trade value is, but if we traded Brunson straight up for him, I’d be mortified.

Brunson is a comparable player to Kyrie, but minus the Nazi beliefs, flat-earthery and eating-Vaseline-out-of-jar-on-YouTube downsides.

I think I prefer “Kyrie Irving but not an asshole” over “Kyrie Irving.”

FWIW, objectively speaking, I think Brunson’s trade value is higher. Age, durability, and character are all considerably in Brunson’s favor. Kyrie probably has more of a hired gun mystique than a franchise cornerstone, and Dallas seems like an apex location for him.

Yeah, I suppose that’s likely the full hive mind perspective here.

But what do you imagine the ice-cold logic, frequently wrong NBA offices think?

Good points, Z-Man, plus I guess 26 mil is better than 37 mil, if that’s what you’re giving away (vs. getting…).

A vaccinated Kyrie likely means a different trajectory to KDs career. What a dipshit.

“Good points, Z-Man, plus I guess 26 mil is better than 37 mil, if that’s what you’re giving away (vs. getting…).”

Even at identical salaries, I think Brunson’s star is buoyed by all the national tv exposure he has had this year, the 40-pt game string, the all-NBA berth, the MVP talk. OTOH, he’s still probably suffers from some lingering 2nd round pick making good is so cute but not sure it’s real vs. 1st overall pick and 8X all-star who made the biggest shot in the last 10 years hype.

If both were in the last year of their respective deals and there was no guarantee of re-signing them, i.e. as a 1-year rental, I could see a specific team paying more for Kyrie. But it would surprise me if Brunson wasn’t more highly valued around the league as a long-term asset.

Farewell to Rafa. What a legend. Tough way to end.

We could reasonably clone this Mavs team with Brunson & Mitchell doing the Luka/Kyrie thing

Not exactly the same, but yes, that’s why I’m not against such a pairing, especially considering they are both in their prime. I don’t think Cleveland will let it happen, though. We’re probably going to have to go the “elite role player” route instead.

I liked Kyrie’s call for a complete stop in all quarters on use of the N-word. As best I can tell, it sort of came and went, but it’s an excellent idea.

The vaccination thing now looks absurd in retrospect.

He was available at a discount and the Knicks should have been in on it.

Regardless of substance, I find distasteful the pastime of putting a well-known person up on the internet for review, finding the one or two worst moments of what’s often a varied life, and engaging in a Two Minutes Hate tomato flinging contest at said person. There’s a bullying and illiberal sheen to it. Neither is appealing.

Yes, let us all feel so sorry for this anti-Semitic, Holocaust-denying, mouth breathing, quiet quitting jackass and lament that he should have been on our team all along.

Kyrie only quit on 3 different championship level teams. Don’t be so hasty to judge him.

It’s fine to have varied perspectives on a polarizing character like Kyrie. I’m more of a “take one for the team” kind of guy. The vaccine definitely saved lives and protected people and was almost 100% safe to take, that’s beyond dispute. He could have voiced his disagreement with the vaccine and all of the Nets, NYC’s and NBA’s policies and still have been there for his teammates and his fanbase.

He openly feuded with LeBron for whatever reasons.

The preponderance of the Celtics fanbase hated him by the end and were thrilled when he left.

He singlehandedly blew up the Nets.

If one wants to see these things as “one or two worst moments of a varied life,” there’s certainly nothing wrong with that.

If one wants to see these things as representing deep character flaws, as I and many others do, then there’s nothing wrong with that, either.

It’s not like we’re calling for him to be blackballed or banished or arrested. We just prefer not to root for him as a cornerstone of our team, for what we think are defensible reasons.

If some faux-moralizing weirdo on the internet perceives that as gratuitous tomato-throwing, or bullying, or illiberal, whatever.

SI is reporting we’re going to offer IHart 4 years 72 million

Regardless of our C sitch..I’m kinda rooting for Edey and George with our 1sts. Or Klintman and George if we don’t think Ware fits what we want to do. Thoughts?

Edey was surprisingly good at the combine (relatively). He outjumped, outran and was better in the agility drills than Clingan. I am not saying he’s going to go in the high lottery, but I’m guessing he will be gone by the time we draft.

SI is reporting we’re going to offer IHart 4 years 72 million

I can’t think of a good reason we wouldn’t.

I think you guys are looking at the Kyrie/Brunson thing all wrong. Kyrie is arguably the most skilled player of all times wrt ball handling, passing, shooting, etc.

We are debating if the Knick’s pg is equal value-wise. That’s a pretty cool thing when you realized he is a well grounded fellow to boot!

Yes, let us all feel so sorry for this anti-Semitic, Holocaust-denying, mouth breathing, quiet quitting jackass and lament that he should have been on our team all along.

This ^^^^^^^^^^

RIP Bill Walton

when I was young I couldn’t stand Bill Walton calling NBA games but I wound up appreciating him when he got older and just did west coast college basketball. Very fun character

SI is reporting we’re going to offer IHart 4 years 72 million

Seems fair to me, i hope he takes it. Next, and although i’m one Mitch’s biggest fans, i don’t think we should have 32M tied on the C position. Maybe it’ll be time to put Z-Man’s theory that we can get 80% of the production for a fraction of the cost to test.

All this made up bullshit:

this anti-Semitic, Holocaust-denying

Kyrie only quit on 3 different championship level teams.

He openly feuded with LeBron for whatever reasons.

He singlehandedly blew up the Nets.

is exactly why Kyrie was such an appealing buy-low target.

This wasn’t like Miles Bridges, who actually did hit his wife. 10 seconds of homework (and 3.5 hours to watch that stupid movie he posted a picture of) could dispel all these myths about Kyrie.

The Mavs were smart enough to do it, and it paid off. You didn’t do the work, and that’s why you’re surprised.

This wasn’t like Miles Bridges, who actually did hit his wife. 10 seconds of homework could dispel all these myths about Kyrie.

Well, you also wanted to buy low on Miles Bridges, so no surprise here.

Miles Bridges was a legitimate case of me advocating to put morality aside.

Kyrie was simply a case of case of, as Strat would say, checking the primary sources. The fact that to this day people still think Kyrie denied the holocaust is a testament to how easy it is to fool people.

don’t think SI is reporting shit. the vast majority of SI articles today read like they are written by a free trial version of Claude with headlines generated a free trial version of a magic eight ball.

“Maybe it’ll be time to put Z-Man’s theory that we can get 80% of the production for a fraction of the cost to test.”

Well we already sort of proved that by landing iHart for 2 yrs/$9M AAV, didn’t we? 🙂

We got essentially the same player for even less cost. Jalen Brunson was an infinitely better “buy low” option for a variety of reasons.

https://www.ajc.org/news/deconstructing-nba-star-kyrie-irvings-antisemitic-uproar

You are what you retweet…

That’s shocking about Bill Walton. What a college player! What an NBA player, when healthy! What a personality!

Yeah we got a better Kyrie for less. Seems like a good move!

Z-mansays:
May 27, 2024 at 13:59

https://www.ajc.org/news/deconstructing-nba-star-kyrie-irvings-antisemitic-uproar

You are what you retweet…

Posting the link is obviously fair. The comment, as we used to say in the Navy, isnt , “In the best interest of good order and discipline.”

Kerosene, say hello to the match…. 🙂

We already had Brunson in tow.

Kyrie was an intriguing possibility for the #2 guy we still don’t have. He is vastly better than Randle and vastly cheaper than Mitchell.

I don’t regret not trading for him, though. The cost probably would have been something like RJ Barrett and two firsts, and the trickle on impact of that would have been pretty significant.

Well we already sort of proved that by landing iHart for 2 yrs/$9M AAV, didn’t we? 🙂

We need to find the new iHart then. We’ll need the cap space for the re-signings and Mitch will be one of the easiest ways to save some money.

That’s shocking about Bill Walton. What a college player! What an NBA player, when healthy! What a personality!

Bill Walton is one of the few people on this earth who I envied. He spent every single second of his life achieving the pinnacle in every phase of his career and spent every single second of the rest of it fucking around, doing precisely what he want to do. God bless the true “one of a kind.”

Well we already sort of proved that by landing iHart for 2 yrs/$9M AAV, didn’t we?

$9MM is 60% of $15MM.

If you had claimed we could get 80% of Mitch for 60% of the cost, we wouldn’t still be ridiculing your take today.

But you said we could get 80% of Mitch for 20% of the cost (which is $3MM, approximately the BAE or the vet min), which is why it has permanent residence in the Bad Take Pantheon.

Best characterization of Bill Walton….”Bill Walton, legendary human being, ambassador of kindness and hilarity.”

We got 110% of Mitch for 60% of the cost. Not to mention the amount of time Mitch has missed. Also not to mention the many 80% analogs we could have drafted to replace him. Not to mention that the discussion took place in the context of Mitch spurning the Knicks for more money than he signed for.

“When I think of Boris Diaw, I think of Beethoven in the age of the romantics.” – Bill Walton

Imagine if Jalen had 3 games in this postseason where he scored 9, 9, and 12 points like Kyrie did.

Doug, have you forgotten games 1 and 2 vs. Philly? Iirc 6-28 and 6-27? Didn’t he also have a bad game vs. Indy?

@NBA_NewYork:
“For the sake of goodness in the world, I hope that the Knicks run continues. Because I like this team a lot…”

— Bill Walton last season

RIP to a legend

https://x.com/NBA_NewYork/status/1795147672107745457 (w/ video)

Can someone run the numbers on how deleterious Thibs minute’s crucible would be when on a flat earth. Or would it bring out the little ubermensch within?

2 dud semifinal matchups…my hopes aren’t too high for a competitive finals with celts/mavs…

there have actually only been about four series this post season that have been really interesting…

we were in 2 of them…

Can someone run the numbers on how deleterious Thibs minute’s crucible would be when on a flat earth. Or would it bring out the little ubermensch within?

Would have been interesting to see the Thibs-Kyrie dynamic.
Bill Walton in his Portland days was as deft a passer a Jokic. His pro-career, which was still HOF, derailed by injuries.

Kyrie was simply a case of case of, as Strat would say, checking the primary sources.

Sorry for the OT rant, but the US government/media are the main institutions (really two sides of the same crooked coin) helping me revisit my views on God, good and evil and the US’s place in the world. To me, it feels like some kind of metaphysical battle is going on in the world today and especially in the US. I can’t explain it conventionally based on my experiences growing up. Either I was incredibly naive when I was young (possible) or “something evil” really does exist and it has the upper hand over “good” right now.

I was less concerned about Kyrie’s views on the efficacy and side effects of the Covid mMRA vaccines or the shape of the earth than some of his other views. I don’t know what’s in his heart, but while you’re a professional you have to be smart and sensitive enough to avoid becoming a lighting rod for scorn. Between that and his flakiness as a teammate, he was a tough risk, but so far Dallas is looking pretty smart.

you need to move out to the country, or shoot – southern california…

for it seems like a week or so – exh day has been nicer outside than the last…

thankfully I think less and less about the media and our government…

beautiful weather will do that to you, I guess…

Kyrie is obviously anti-Semitic. Hubert debating otherwise tells us all we need to know about Hubert. I suppose next he will try to gaslight us that Kanye isn’t anti-Semitic.

What it tells you, GoldClub, is that I’m the only person here who actually watched that god awful 3.5 hour movie Kyrie tweeted a picture of, while you proved you were willing to levy serious accusations against a man based on hearsay. I did my homework, you just grabbed your pitchfork.

Not surprisingly, I’m with GoldClub on this one.

Sorry for the OT rant, but the US government/media are the main institutions (really two sides of the same crooked coin) helping me revisit my views on God, good and evil and the US’s place in the world. To me, it feels like some kind of metaphysical battle is going on in the world today and especially in the US. I can’t explain it conventionally based on my experiences growing up. Either I was incredibly naive when I was young (possible) or “something evil” really does exist and it has the upper hand over “good” right now.

We’re going through an Industrial Revolution that will see us raise our final idol. Artificial intelligence is wild. Stupid people are profoundly susceptible. Hell even smart ones. We’re fucked. The volatility is just getting started. The uncanny is getting more uncanny. Kyrie used his platform to contribute to the madness with intent or not. Either way he should be held to account. Hopefully we get a Knicks championship before we’re running the numbers on running men.

We need to find the new iHart then. We’ll need the cap space for the re-signings and Mitch will be one of the easiest ways to save some money.

If we drafter Edey, he would give you 80% of the player for 20% of the money. (The rookie salary for our draft picks is around $2M). But I agree with DRed, he will be gone when we draft (unless we trade up). Even if we traded up though, his rookie salary will still likely be less than $5M.

The film appears to be filled with antisemitic tropes, including Holocaust denial. I don’t plan on watching it but I’ll take the ADL’s word for it.

Does that make Kyrie antisemitic? I don’t know really. He’s more of an ignoramus than anything else. He did fail to apologize for retweeting it and then later deleted the apology he was forced to give, so maybe he is an asshole on top of being a moron. Who can really know.

Hubert hit us with the “do your own research” lol

That’s Brandolini’s Law for you

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law

To disprove Hubert’s bullshit takes infinitely more effort than for him to spout it.

I can believe he is an idiot and a great basketball player

I’ll take the ADL’s word for it.

You really shouldn’t have.

Remember when the AP summed up Knicks Sixers game 3 by describing Joel Embiid as brave and courageous, said there was no controversy about the officials, and even said when he took down Mitch it was just him being feisty? The media synopsis of the movie (including the ADL’s) approached that level of dishonesty.

What they mostly did was take quotes from books the filmmaker wrote (quotes that weren’t in the movie) and acted like they were part of the movie Kyrie tweeted.

The filmmaker himself seems like a real piece of shit. And maybe Kyrie should have researched everything he ever wrote before promoting his movie. But the movie he promoted was not about that shit.

That so-called documentary uncritically quotes from 2 fabricated antisemitic sources, The Hidden Tyranny & The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I skipped through and found them pretty quickly, I didn’t need to watch the rest of it. The ADL are pretty spot on.

That’s Brandolini’s Law for you

100%

It’s just ironic you don’t know you’re the one peddling the misinformation.

It’s just ironic you don’t know you’re the one peddling the misinformation.

Your defense of noted conspiracy theorist Kyrie is…well, something. What’s next? You going to ride RFK’s jock.

Your defense of noted conspiracy theorist Kyrie is…

facts.

PS you keep bringing up Covid but unfortunately I was pretty outspoken about how much I didn’t like Kyrie’s stupid anti-vax take. Not everything is so black-and-white. (It probably is for you, though)

From what I’ve read about this (which is now far too much) both the ADL and SPLC gave quotes from the filmmaker’s other works as context, and did not attribute those quotes to the film, which seems like fair game to me. The filmmaker is one of these Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion people, and a film like this is meant to be a gateway to those kinds of beliefs. I think it’s entirely appropriate to discuss that context.

And the film DOES contain at least one instance of Holocaust denial, as I have seen the screenshot: it makes the claim that Jews are lying about 6.5 million of their people being killed in the Holocaust. It’s in a list of “five lies the Jews have told the world.”

This is quite a depressing thing to be debating so I’m not going to comment on it again. I believe that Kyrie Irving’s right to play in the NBA shouldn’t be taken away because he happens to be an ignorant kook. I’m happy that he’s not wearing the laundry I root for, though.

Being anti-Semitic is his right. Just means I won’t root for the asshole.

last 2 minutes of that game were so hillariously bad

Ha! Suck it Indy! I’m no fan of the Celtics but I am glad they swept these chumps. Hey Halliburton, want some dick with that choke?

Something to consider if you’re upset by how horribly wronged Kyrie was by cancel culture or whatever is that he made 39 million dollars this year

I can understand why Hubert is defending poor, misunderstood Kyrie. They are so much alike.

First, such a very strange mountain of shit to choose to die on…

And the not backing down even a little after people do what he insisted and checked the facts and came back with proof. So very strange.

Kyrie is an absolute fucking idiot and some of those shots he sank in Game 3 were the stuff of basketball legend. Also he is probably a Holocaust denier, so fuck him. Nice jumper as well.

Celtics vs. Mavs is gonna be hard to stomach for so many reasons

Kyrie is a great basketball player.
Kyrie is everything that’s screwed up in this country. That’s all I’ll say about that other than how much I don’t want him near my team.

I get that some people get off on being contrarians and think that taking the opposite position to the perceived status quo means you’re capable of sophisticated critical thinking, but this one I just don’t get.

Kyrie Irving is a young millionaire who has achieved so much success and has faced literally zero consequences for anything he said or did. He doesn’t need your passionate defense, unless you agree with his bullshit, which I’m giving the benefit of the doubt of thinking it’s not the case.

Glad to see the Pacers have decided against wasting any more of our time with this series and folded once again. Hoping the “success” they had leads to a Carlisle contract renewal ala McMillan with the Hawks that one year, and the subsequent collapse.

And the not backing down even a little after people do what he insisted and checked the facts and came back with proof.

Lol no one came back with proof that Kyrie is anti-semitic, Raven.

Excited to see what some of you won’t admit you were wrong about next.

I get that some people get off on being contrarians and think that taking the opposite position to the perceived status quo means you’re capable of sophisticated critical thinking, but this one I just don’t get

You’re one of my favorite posters, Bruno, but it’s a little rude to presume this is my motivation. I genuinely believe Kyriegate was a much-ado-about-nothing burger invented by the media for clicks and exploited by the ADL for attention. And furthermore, while I may be in the minority here, nationally I’m not the contrarian; you guys are.

Like you said, he faced no consequences… and it’s not because no one cared… Kanye lost billions at the same exact time… because he actually did say something anti-semitic… and no one was willing to tolerate it (rightfully so)… if Kyrie had done so, as well, in that climate, he would have faced real consequences… the fact that he faced none goes to show how trumped up the charge was… there’s nothing contrarian here, the general public didn’t take your side.

Kyrie’s not antisemitic, he’s just a guy who casually promotes insidious antisemitic tropes because he’s too fucking dumb to know any better, then refuses to apologize because he’s too narcissistic to do that. Until he’s forced to do so for financial reasons, at which point he waits until nobody is paying attention and then deletes the apology like a true shitheel.

Whatever.

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