Knicks Morning News (2022.09.18)

You guys need to stop complaining we didn’t play Cam because he got hurt and was unable to play after we started giving him minutes

nah, i’m on team camgate. they traded for cam without set plan to play him. he only played because rj and grimes alternatively got hurt. when they were both healthy he was completely out of the rotation, and during his entire stint into the rotation at least one of them was out, the day rj got back grimes got hurt in 14 seconds. and even then, with the injury opening, he only played 16mpg.

trading a shitty first for a guy that’s been on the block forever and has 1.5 yrs left on his rookie deal really seems to require a plan to play him to make sense. if you’re going to pass on taking 1st rounders partly bc you don’t have room for them in the rotation, you should probably do the same for rapidly depreciating disappointments heading into their rfa year. they know this was stupid. they were even talking about flipping him at the deadline.

i get that there is a plausible case that what they were really securing is the soothsaying benefit of thibs’ laser eyes at practice. plausible as an insult.

But why is the notion that although they had a full rotation at the moment, they still had a full 1.5 years to develop Cam as a fallback for the Julius Randle situation, or as another trade permutation generator, unreasonable?

The logical fallacy here is that players have to play in NBA games to be properly evaluated or developed. That’s just not true. Cam had plenty of NBA game film. His strengths and weaknesses at the NBA level were well known at the time of the trade. The Knicks have an excellent scouting department. I don’t think it is either implausable or improper that they would trade for Cam fully knowing that he wasn’t going to be in the rotation….that the strategy would be to recondition him (mind, body and game) and then either play him or trade him before he turns into a pumpkin in summer 2023.

At the end of the day, sure, it could have been a simple valuation play…Cam would be worth more in a deal than the protected CHA pick, and that that calculation was flawed. But there are lots of possibilities beyond a disconnect in the front office, even though we already know that Thibs, Aller and WWW aren’t exactly bff’s on the same page.

This wouldn’t be the first time a management team brought in a player that they liked that the coach didn’t.

I thought is was already generally accepted that management liked Cam (at least better than that pick) but Thibs did not based on game film and because he already had a set rotation. That almost had to be communicated internally, but they did the deal anyway.

In a situation like this it’s on the coach to have an open mind, evaluate the player in practice, and decide who deserves the time based on merit.

There’s no indication that Cam should have been playing ahead of anyone in the existing rotation. I think Thibs evaluated him from film, evaluated him further in practice, and put him in the pecking order where he thought he belonged.

It was on Cam to show Thibs he was wrong by working harder in practice, watching game film, and earning a spot. Maybe he would have done that eventually, but he got hurt and both he and the team lost time to evaluate him. So we move on to this year where he’ll get another chance.

Reddish only was on the trading block in Atlanta because he wanted a bigger role. I’m pretty sure he wasn’t expecting to be completely out of the rotation.

The logical fallacy here is that players have to play in NBA games to be properly evaluated or developed.

it’s not a “logical fallacy,” it’s a disagreement about the world. the logical fallacy is your “properly,” which not a useful word in this context and sneaks in a false dichotomy. “properly” doesn’t exist. a better word is optimally. and hell yes, it is much easier to evaluate nba players when you watch them play nba games. for you. for laser eyes thibs. for jerry west. for the reddit dude who thinks ihart is going to be the next sabonis sr. the only exception is when damyean dotson caught a cold before a key practice on july 27 2018 and strat immediately knew his eddie jones future would be waylaid.

it’s hard to evaluate young players even when they play in actual games. it’s obscenely hard to do so at practice — especially regular season practice which in the nba isn’t exactly juilliard. when thibs drafted okogie he fucking raved about him in practice and said the sky was the limit. it is definitely not impossible for cam to have a great training camp and prove out. it is plausible. it seems pretty damn suboptimal to bet even a shitty first on it. notice he was already in trade talks before the deadline? that’s a weird thing to do if you never expected to play him in the first place and had lots of optimism in your ability to recondition him in one year before rfa. the main rumor involved burks and cam going to la and goran dragic and 2nd coming here. not great bob.

This wouldn’t be the first time a management team brought in a player that they liked that the coach didn’t.

this morning wasn’t the first time i nearly turned 3 chocolate chip pancakes into a fire department field trip either, but i don’t expect a bunch of strangers to jump on the ptmilo blog defending my cooking execution. it’s a pretty dumb organizational thing to do, even if it’s not guaranteed to fail.

Personally, I would have taken the same shot with Cam as management did. We needed a lengthy SF, he had shown flashes of high talent, and his development was repeatedly interrupted. Those are the reasons he was still highly regarded by some. They remain true despite the disappointment to date. I’d still prefer that over an unknown mediocre pick that’s probably going to be buried on the bench anyway.

All I’d ask from Thibs is to give him a fair shake.

Cam might not work out, but that pick could just as easily wind up being another Knox or G league player.

Of course it’s hard to evaluate players from just practice. People can’t even agree on players after watching them play for many seasons. But every season every team evaluates their rookies based on practice. They get a big/small/no role based primarily on practice (with some politics on occasion). Then the role changes as they show more in practice, prove more in games etc.. Thibs already had multiple years of game film to evaluate Cam on top of practice. He knew exactly what he was dealing with.

The only problem here is that he got hurt and that interrupted his DEVELOPMENT again – which includes practice. Now Thibs will have practice and pre season games to see whether Cam is in great shape, worked on the things he needed to work on etc… It’s on Cam to show whether he is willing to work hard, defend, watch film, and learn how to use his tools more effectively. If he has, he’ll play.

Either way, we took a shot on player we valued higher than that pick. Whatever the result, it doesn’t necessarily prove we were right or wrong. It will just be one possible outcome of several possibilities.

ptmilo save some good points for the rest of us

“a better word is optimally. and hell yes, it is much easier to evaluate nba players when you watch them play nba games.”

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly! But there were 3,000+ minutes of tape of Cam playing in NBA games, including nearly 800 minutes from ATL that year. (He averaged 26 mpg with ATL). I don’t know what kind of revelations would result from playing him at the expense of someone already in the rotation at the time, especially when the team was still in a playoff hunt (they were 21-21 at the time of the trade.)

“when thibs drafted okogie he fucking raved about him in practice and said the sky was the limit”

My guess is that it’s far more common for players who ball out in practice to fail in actual games than the other way around (Allen Iverson excepted.) Regardless, the larger point is that it is harsh to conclude that when you trade a relatively modest asset for a 22yo player who you know is still a “project” based on ample game film, that if you don’t immediately disrupt the rotation to get a long look-see in actual ‘meaningful” games, you’ve made a bad decision just on that basis.

In other words, there are lots of reasons to feel (as I did at the time) that it was a poor move, most importantly that Cam was and will continue to be a spotty player who was not worthy of even that pick. Seemed like a case of the Knicks bidding against themselves.

I did like some things I saw when he actually did play. If he actually does develop and shows out in preseason, maybe he can justify dumping another vet.

I have something to add to the conversation. I also made chocolate chip pancakes this morning.

I mean there’s just no defense of the Knicks’ braintrust writ large when it comes to Cam.

Is he so bad that playing him any more than 215 minutes would’ve immediately torpedoed his value? Shouldn’t have traded a protected 2nd, much less a 1st, for him then.

Is he a worthwhile reclamation project? The only way to find out is by playing him more than 215 minutes.

The idea that we can gather the data we need in practice is ridiculous. We’d never decide whether to acquire a player based on “practice reports” or whatever. We’re trying to determine Cam’s impact on the outcome of NBA games and we have a very limited amount of time to do so.

I know as of right now I’d have no clue what to do if another team offered him, say, 4/$44M in RFA. At first glance it seems like a lot for a guy who, well, has never been good…but he wouldn’t have to be all that good to justify that, plus if we let him walk the joke’s on us. L’affaire de l’incinération would be truly, unambiguously, indisputably complete.

If he plays ~500 minutes this year I’ll still have no idea what to do in that scenario. It’s just not enough data.

Trading a protected first for him came with the implied promise that we’d actually do something with the guy. There’s no other organizationally competent way to handle that situation. This shockingly seems to have caught the Knicks’ braintrust off guard given that they were frantically trying to re-trade him like a week later.

we took a shot on player we valued higher than that pick. Whatever the result, it doesn’t necessarily prove we were right or wrong. It will just be one possible outcome of several possibilities.

There are definitely results that can prove we were right or wrong.

“Is he so bad that playing him any more than 215 minutes would’ve immediately torpedoed his value? Shouldn’t have traded a protected 2nd, much less a 1st, for him then.”

I don’t know why you keep harping on the 215 minutes. He got injured. And why do you thing “torpedoeing his value” was even a consideration? They had a set rotation when they acquired him and a 21-21 record. Why isn’t it just about not wanting to disrupt the rotation to play a guy who you just acquired for a pick you endlessly whined about being incinerated when you have 3000+ minutes of NBA game film on top of what you are seeing in practice to do so?

“Is he a worthwhile reclamation project? The only way to find out is by playing him more than 215 minutes.”

Which he obviously would have if he didn’t have a season-ending shoulder injury.

“The idea that we can gather the data we need in practice is ridiculous. We’d never decide whether to acquire a player based on “practice reports” or whatever. We’re trying to determine Cam’s impact on the outcome of NBA games and we have a very limited amount of time to do so.”

Again, you ignore that they had plenty of data on him which suggested that he was not “currently” better than anyone ahead of him in the rotation. I mean, do you feel that it was so urgent that they should have benched Obi just to find out? Or Grimes? Or IQ?

This really comes down to whether they should have been caring about wins and losses at 21-21 (or ever.) If you can’t separate the two things, then it’s not a rational argument.

Cam has definitely been mishandled. But I don’t necessarily think it’s because of ineptitude. Nor do I think it’s because Thibs doesn’t like him..allegedly. I think the FO had a plan in mind for him and it just completely fell wrong. Thibs was 200% right when he said that the team had traded a player not in the rotation for him and he wasn’t gonna force Cam into the rotation. I believe the plan was to groom him as the starting 3 next to RJ. But we already had too much in the way that was easier to give rotation minutes to. Even this season, Cam still has to beat one or both of Fournier and Grimes out for minutes.

Now when I say things fell wrong, it’s more so because Fournier didn’t have his typical season(making it harder to move him) and no one wanted Burks in a fair trade until the offseason- and even that trade was a loss, cap space to ink Brunson aside. From that perspective, I can totally understand the FO not wanting to give him away. It would have to be in a trade that’s somewhat advantageous for the Knicks, given the fact they used a 1st to acquire him. Things just kinda went sideways and the team didn’t have the wiggle room they thought they’d have. Cam still has value, but the onus is on him to force Thibs to play him because again- the rotation is set unless we can find a home for Fournier. It sucks though, because the kid has so much natural talent. I’m definitely rooting for him..but that is a steep uphill climb for him. He’s in between a rock and a hard place for sure

Granted, everything I know about the Knicks (and much of the world) I know from what I read here. But didn’t the front office trade for Reddish so that Zion would want to sign here one day? That was always the least logical-fallacied explanation to me.

To me this is all about Cam Reddish, not about FO politics, sending a message to Thibs, deciding to use the pick on a diamond in the rough, etc. Someone liked Cam, period.

It’s real simple. If I’m the leader of the front office and the coach of that boring, going nowhere team with the headcase acting out “star” told me “my rotation is full;” I’d have told him in diplomatic terms: “unfill it.” And then if he didn’t, the next step picks itself.

+1 for Poindexter

And, at the risk of disagreeing with ptmilo(!), there is absolutely something that can only be properly evaluated in a Thibs practice, that is — Can Cam be a “Thibs guy” in terms of attitude and effort?

Rather than being in opposition, Leon might easily have said, “Cam’s a guy with the right physical tools, see if you can get him to play up to his potential. If yes, that gives me flexibility to trade some other guys. If not, fine.” Again, the downside is only 1.5 years to evaluate him v four years for our own pick, but obvs Leon thought that loss was negligible.

@ShamsCharania
Free agent G/F Svi Mykhailiuk has agreed to a partially guaranteed one-year deal with the New York Knicks, his agency @SIGSports told @TheAthletic @Stadium.

Anybody got a Svi scouting report?

After 2min of googling, I can tell you he was signed only to see how Clyde pronounces his name

He’s a shooter with a bit of wiggle and passing. Solid athlete. Bad defender with 6’4.75″ T-Rex arms despite being 6’8″.

One article says his defense improved as a senior after dropping weight.

BKRef lists his nickname as the Ukraine Maker… we must keep this kid.

I love how commentators who have never played basketball past maybe junior varsity in high school can say authoritatively that it’s impossible for an NBA coach to evaluate an NBA player’s ability in practice.

Every single player on the Knicks is an elite athlete and basketball player. What seperates starter from a sub from someone out of a rotation is execution of the game plan, effort, etc. coaches see this in practice and also they have a staff of like 10 coaches, tons of game footage, etc. they aren’t just winging it.

Why automatically give someone PT who has a proven record of not living up to his potential and thinking he’s owed a big role on a team instead of making him earn it and humble himself by doing the work?

“walkerandbendercornerstone ssays:
September 18, 2022 at 14:26
Why automatically give someone PT who has a proven record of not living up to his potential and thinking he’s owed a big role on a team instead of making him earn it and humble himself by doing the work?”

It’s really a weird criticism, except in the context of “we shouldn’t be trying to win games anyway” line of reasoning, or alternatively, the “why did you think he was worth acquiring when he sucked” line of reasoning. Once you concede that they wanted to make the play-in and had a set rotation that the coach was happy with, there was no need to play Cam merely to justify the trade. I don’t know how anyone could logically conclude that judging the trade had anything to do with how, or how much, Cam played last season. You would have to think that the FO totally ignored his 3000 minutes of game film and traded for Cam as a “he can help us right now!” guy, only to be snubbed by Thibs. It’s really far-fetched.

Granted, everything I know about the Knicks (and much of the world) I know from what I read here. But didn’t the front office trade for Reddish so that Zion would want to sign here one day? That was always the least logical-fallacied explanation to me.

Is there any evidence at all that Zion, RJ, and Cam are friends and want to play together again? They weren’t particularly good at Duke and had 0 chemistry on the court and I haven’t read or seen anything that suggests they have any kind of offcourt relationship.

But can we agree that unless Cam turns his situation around, the FO lost the bet and so it’s a mistake on their part? Or are we gonna applaud when they do good moves, and then justify the bad ones as “sometimes things don’t turn out the way we expected”? This is a bad move unless Cam starts using the great physical tools he supposedly has. I’m still rooting for him to make a leap and justify the trade, but right now it looks like having used the pick on a player we could develop for 4 years (yeah, even if only in practice/GLeague) would have been a safer bet.

“You would have to think that the FO totally ignored his 3000 minutes of game film and traded for Cam as a “he can help us right now!” guy, only to be snubbed by Thibs. It’s really far-fetched.”

While this was almost certainly the case with the Kemba acquisition, it was pretty clear that the FO saw Kemba as an immediate front of rotation piece and Thibs (rightfully) did not. There was no indication that Cam was acquired as a “help us rignt now” piece.

“Is there any evidence at all that Zion, RJ, and Cam are friends and want to play together again? They weren’t particularly good at Duke and had 0 chemistry on the court and I haven’t read or seen anything that suggests they have any kind of offcourt relationship.”

I saw something suggesting that they weren’t the greatest of friends, and even if they were, I doubt it would be a reason for the deal. But hey, you never know!

BKRef lists his nickname as the Ukraine Maker… we must keep this kid.

He’s ukrainian? Let’s keep the kid. Slava ukraini! 🙂
But the stats don’t look good.

The idea that we can gather the data we need in practice is ridiculous.

This is not the idea, though.

The idea is that through 2.5 seasons and one ridiculous press conference where he called himself a superstar, Cam had already provided enough data. The only way this flier can pan out is if we strip him of his entitlement, force him to come to camp “in the best shape of his life”, and make him earn minutes over the less talented players in front of him.

This strikes me as better than giving him minutes he hasn’t earned, and I don’t think we traded anything but the ashes of a once valuable pick so I’m not that upset about it.

“But can we agree that unless Cam turns his situation around, the FO lost the bet and so it’s a mistake on their part?”

I can’t speak for others, but for my part, I think it was a mistake on their part from the get-go. I’m just disagreeing about the “once you traded for him, you needed to play him” stuff. Why can’t we just agree that it was a bad move on paper no matter whether Cam played or not?

You would have to think that the FO totally ignored his 3000 minutes of game film and traded for Cam as a “he can help us right now!” guy, only to be snubbed by Thibs. It’s really far-fetched.

This doesn’t seem far fetched to me. I can definitely see Leon & Wes wanting him just bc he was the 8th pick in the draft.

I think Thibs is the rational actor here, not Leon.

“This doesn’t seem far fetched to me at all. I can definitely see Leon & Wes wanting him just bc he was the 8th pick in the draft.”

When then they are REALLY stupid because Jarrett Culver was available for less…

Yet another insincere response that presents no position.

It’s a sincere rebuttal to your take that “I can definitely see Leon & Wes wanting him just bc he was the 8th pick in the draft.” Why do you think otherwise?

Why can’t we just agree that it was a bad move on paper no matter whether Cam played or not?

Yeah, i agree. But since we have him, maybe it’d be a good idea to trade one vet (Fournier?) to have him backup RJ. And RJ plays a lot so he’d still have to earn his minutes, unless he’d be happy playing 8/10 minutes per game.

J E T S….

I trust that the board is aware of the common practice in which GMs (especially middling ones like Leon) have overlooked a player’s production and acquired him based on his draft pedigree. As such I will ignore the troll.

I’d bet all my money that Leon didn’t trade for Cam because he was the 8th pick. 😀

It’s because he was the 10th pick! 😉

Giving second chances to lottery busts is more of a Scott Perry fetish, anyway, and he doesn’t appear to have any influence whatsoever in our impenetrable front office structure.

“SoCal Hubiesays:
September 18, 2022 at 16:14
I trust that the board is aware of the common practice in which GMs (especially middling ones like Leon) have overlooked a player’s production and acquired him based on his draft pedigree. As such I will ignore the troll.”

It was you who responded to my post with this idiotic contention. If you keep saying stupid stuff, you should expect responses like the one you got.

The underlying reasons for why a draft bust is drafted high might linger (he’s got an incredible measurables, he destroyed his competition in college or europe, etc.) But to think that any GM, good or bad, cares about draft pedigree in and of itself is just silly. Again, if that was the case, Jarrett Culver was the clear winner.

Hubie, Calling zman a troll is not accurate imo
As many yrs as I’m fkn around on the net i find zman’s activity as anything else but trollish. You should find another word if you want to seem less troll

Cam Reddish reminds me of Obi in Sf
Long athletic talented wo much appetite for D
If Thibs can turn Obi into an nba player why not turn Cam also?
As Jon Bon Jovi used to say
Keep the faith!

Do i like Cam Reddish trade?
No
Can we trade him too
Why not?
Is it possible that he becomes a player?
Not impossible

***Is there any evidence at all that Zion, RJ, and Cam are friends and want to play together again? They weren’t particularly good at Duke and had 0 chemistry on the court and I haven’t read or seen anything that suggests they have any kind of offcourt relationship.***

All I knows is this is the same organization that once traded for Darko Milicic because they’d seen a photo of he and LeBron James on the draft dias together and assumed they were friends.

Hubert, you can disagree with Z-man. (I do on most of his recent defenses of the Rose administration.) You can feel like he comments too much. (We’ve had far higher volume defenders.) What you can’t call him is trolling, because that implies someone is being disingenuous just to provoke a reaction from someone they don’t like. Z-man has never struck me as less than sincere on this place, even when we were on opposite sides of The Frank Wars. And calling him a troll is diminishing him as a person and as a member of this very weird community we have built here.

Giving second chances to lottery busts is more of a Scott Perry fetish,

Alan, it is indisputable that this practice has been going on forever.

Off the top of my head… Marvin Bagley, Evan Turner, Derrick Williams, Jimmer Fredette, Michael Beasley, Wesley Johnson,Dennis Smith, Frank Ntilikina, OJ Mayo, Tyrus Thomas, Andrea Bargnani, Thomas Robinson, Jahlil Okafor, Emmanuel Mudiay, Stanley Johnson, Kevin Knox, and yes… Cam Reddish.

We can say with complete confidence that there is a 0% chance anyone would have surrendered an asset for a player with Cam’s production if he had been the 35th pick in the draft.

When then they are REALLY stupid because Jarrett Culver was available for less…

Alan, I state quite clearly this is a disingenuous response just to provoke a reaction from someone they don’t like.

1. It makes no argument.

2. No person with intelligence can sincerely believe that the availability of Jarrett Culver proves that Leon Rose was not influenced by Cam Reddish’s draft pedigree.

That is trolling

Z-man has never struck me as less than sincere on this place, even when we were on opposite sides of The Frank Wars. And calling him a troll is diminishing him as a person and as a member of this very weird community we have built here.

********************

Like I said before, I won’t get into the nomenclature wars. But he said, apparently sober, that the 11th pick wasn’t really a lottery pick. And now he’s condescendingly dismissed another poster by calling “just silly” the idea that any GM thinks about draft pedigree. Of course, as anyone with a brain knows, GMs in all sports consider draft pedigree in player evaluation and have for decades. I mean, this isn’t even remotely debatable, yet he goes out of his way to call the not even remotely debatable thing, “just silly.”

It’s hard to even know what to think of something this ridiculous. But it just goes on and on and on and on. One might consider that sincerity in the pursuit of “showing” that the 11th pick in the draft isn’t a lottery pick might actually be worse than insincerity.

Young players get better when given unlimited playing time even if they don’t deserve it.

Rookie Kevin Knox and David Fizdale agree!!!

Given the double standard applied to people like Julius Randle, and his long track record, there’s no reason to respect Tom Thibodeau’s good faith in the applicability of his “practice evaluations.” Not that those things are the reasons he does anything, anyway.

“When then they are REALLY stupid because Jarrett Culver was available for less…”

We call this one “Sarcasm” in GreekFreakistan and is supposed to be taunting and funny while also proving a point

“Willy Hernangomez named Eurobasket MVP”.

I knew that was bad trade. Patience is a virtue. 🙂

Sarcasm doesn’t work when it’s used to defend an inane, idiotic point. At that point, the user sounds more like the drunk on the corner stool.

“Cam Reddish reminds me of Obi in Sf”

Cam Reddish reminds me of a super-duper poor man’s Melo. They both have (had) great athleticism and an NBA look to them. Of course Melo was a multi-year all-star and chart stuffer extraordinaire, and Cam is a nobody. But the other similarity is between the ears — they both seem to believe in themselves in a way that is borderline nuts. In the one case it made the guy too stubborn to change his game even a little to win more. In the other case the guy already thinks he’s a multi-year all-star when, well, he’s not.

‘At that point, the user sounds more like the drunk on the corner stool.’

And you pick a lot of fights with drunks on the corner stool?

A player needs an inordinate amount of self-belief to become a star in something like the NBA.

While it’s a necessary condition, it’s obviously not a sufficient one.

Hubert, I’ve generally defer to the posters on the board when they specifically call me out. When you continually refer to me as a troll, and folks that know my posting for years differ from you, maybe you should listen a bit. Saying that I Kiss Brian’s and Alan’s ass pretty much sums up the lengths you are willing to go to to discredit me. It’s not working, and is making you look petty and childish. If your apology the other day was sincere, then lighten the fuck up and have a thicker skin.

Leon should have just made the picks when the Knicks were on the clock. All of this draft pick trading fuckery has not led to anything useful. We now have fewer prospects than we could have had, and in exchange we got a year and a half of a draft bust and a handful of heavily protected picks that don’t have a ton of trade value.

It’d be great if he stopped doing that shit, but it’s just his thing I guess.

We call this one “Sarcasm” in GreekFreakistan and is supposed to be taunting and funny while also proving a point

If it had proved a point, it would have been sincere.

Obi is a next level athlete. Who has played for the Knicks in the past 40 years who is a better athlete, at least in the running and jumping sense of the term?

He is the best dunker we have ever had.

Melo was always a very meh athlete to me. Maybe when he came into the league he was better but for the most part he was more OJ Anderson than Justin Jefferson.

No evidence for it but I agree about Cam having an almost delusional level of self belief.

When you continually refer to me as a troll, and folks that know my posting for years differ from you, maybe you should listen a bit

Plenty of posters have called you a troll, Z-Man. They’re just not here to chime in anymore because you made them leave.

My apology to you and the board was absolutely sincere. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to call out your insincere posting when I see it. From now until the end of days, I intend to highlight each and every instance you make a disingenuous post that presents no real argument but is just there to provoke, I am going to highlight and call it what it is, until hopefully you begin to listen to the people who keep telling you to cut it out.

Hubert, I’ve generally defer to the posters on the board when they specifically call me out. When you continually refer to me as a troll, and folks that know my posting for years differ from you, maybe you should listen a bit. Saying that I Kiss Brian’s and Alan’s ass pretty much sums up the lengths you are willing to go to to discredit me. It’s not working, and is making you look petty and childish. If your apology the other day was sincere, then lighten the fuck up and have a thicker skin.

*********************

This is a ridiculous post. Can’t you just let anything go? Like, ever? We’re not the students in your schools. Seriously. Let it go.

You “discredited” yourself with your various howlers. Including the ridiculous one about GMs and draft pedigree. Look in the mirror for once.

And you don’t “defer” to anyone or anything and never have.

#If it had proved a point, it would have been sincere.#

As higher the draft pick as better the chances to succeed?
That’s how i get it

Yes, because GMs tend to take second shots on those guys and not the guy that went 36. Everyone here other than Z-man understands this blatantly obvious truth.

GMs may take second shots on high draft picks but this ain’t going on forever. You’ve got one, two, three more max chances to prove you got game.
Draft pick number ain’t working forever.

You’re right, n.u.n, but it worked in this case. I don’t know why it didn’t work for Jarrett Culver (maybe it still will), but I don’t see how that is relevant.

Some players are so obviously shitty that draft pedigree as a factor gets outweighed by their obvious shittiness. Doesn’t disprove the obvious truth that draft pedigree is a factor.

And correct me if I’m wrong but calling the higher draft picks more possible to succeed is the same with giving Anthony Bennett more 2nd chances to succeed than his entire draft class.
That’s how i got the Jarret Culver over Cam Reddish sarcasm.
As higher the pick as better the chances…
Which is absolutely stupid as we can see in most drafts

Plenty of posters have called you a troll, Z-Man. They’re just not here to chime in anymore because you made them leave.

*********************
His unceasing attacks on djphan were literally tough to read. (And it was impossible to decipher what could possibly have generated that kind of bile. I still can’t begin to understand. And, as now, it just went on and on and on and on and on and on, and just never stopped.)

And now djphan hardly posts anymore.

It’s frankly a little off-putting that Alan stepped in to try to defend this kind of thing.

Draft pick pedigree is fine as far as the player still has potential and nba gms are not yet convinced bout Who he really is.
Once the player is known around the league the pedigree doesn’t matter imo

Come on guys. I haven’t been following this conflict carefully, but Z-Man is not a troll. In fact, he’s one of my favorite posters here. Sometimes he agrees with me. Sometimes he disagrees with me. But he always gives me the reasoning behind his thinking and doesn’t attack me personally even when he thinks I’m crazy. He just tells me what he thinks and why he thinks I am wrong.

IMO, honest disagreements on management, players, coaching, how to use stats vs. eye, how to build a team etc.. is what we should want. It makes things lively and gives each of us a chance to think about some things we may not have thought about. I even think there’s a role for “devil’s advocate when we start getting into group think. Some of us have a natural inclination towards contrarian thinking (like me and maybe him).

Leon should have just made the picks when the Knicks were on the clock.

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Exactly this.

Sometimes I think we are holding our coaches and managements to too high a standard. No one is perfect. The very best managers have made a huge number of errors in their careers. All you can do is hope the net of it above average and you have some good luck. Luck is part it.

Djphan’s cry for annual double ban for him and zman was truly a travesty before admitting that after being a new father he had no much free time to fight him on the kb ring!
Fight Fairly

I see nothing to gain in defending myself against the likes of Hubert and E. I would only hope that one reads the posts on this thread and judges fairly, Including who drew first blood.

********************************

Knew you weren’t going to let it go, but in any event this minimalist effort beats your usual supercilious and theatrical, woe-is-me word salads. Not by a whole lot, but maybe it’s a start.

We’d never decide whether to acquire a player based on “practice reports” or whatever.

Except we did the equivalent with Mitchell Robinson.

Strat, a Hernangomez did win MVP at Eurobasket, but it was Juancho, Willy’s brother, that plays for the Raptors.

You know, I’m reading along, enjoying the discussion and arguments, nothing in the way of bile or vitriol to be seen right out to the horizon, and suddenly flames are shooting out of people’s assholes.

As a lib myself I don’t usually try to own them, but one of the more foolish things in my book is concern over triggering in academics. Just get over it. But on the other hand, it does seem that there are a few folks on this board who have clear and high-strung triggering mechanisms.

Which makes them the equivalent of… freshmen at Sarah Lawrence? Bard? Evergreen State?

I’m not sure why anyone thinks I’m triggered. I just called a spade a spade.

But he always gives me the reasoning behind his thinking and doesn’t attack me personally even when he thinks I’m crazy.

Lucky you.

“But he always gives me the reasoning behind his thinking and doesn’t attack me personally even when he thinks I’m crazy. He just tells me what he thinks and why he thinks I am wrong.”

strat, the only thing I ever went over the line with about you is for your blanket hatred for the media, and I still have very strong feelings abour that because some of the very best people I know personally are reporters, and in my career as an educator, virtually every member of the press I have interacted with has been highly respectful, fair and professional. And I appreciate the way that your are able to “stick to your guns” without turning it into a personal vendetta. Thanks for weighing in, being that you clearly have no allegiance on either side.

Cyber, Willy AND Juancho won MVPs. Juancho for the championship game, and Willy for the whole thing.

Anyone watching the end of the Arizona-Las Vegas game? It almost seem like football is geared towards the unlikely finish. That jets game was ridiculous.

So let’s discuss this reasonably and respectfully then.

It was your position that it is “really far fetched” to believe our front office overlooked Cam’s 3,000 NBA minutes and then got snubbed by Thibs.

I think it actually makes perfect sense. GMs (especially middling ones like Leon) tend to get seduced by a player with high pedigree. They think “this guy was a lottery pick, maybe we can catch lightning in a bottle if we change his scenery.”

Coaches, on the other hand, don’t give a damn where a player was drafted if he can’t play. So Thibs snubbing Cam seems well within reason.

You made a point, and I made a sincere counterpoint. I’m happy to hear a rebuttal.

Willy AND Juancho won MVPs. Juancho for the championship game, and Willy for the whole thing.

Did I miss the Alan report on their performances in HUSTLE? I liked. Obvs Juancho was the MVP of that one, but Willy does peek in during a gym scene.

The Cam Debate is really quite simple. If he actually is so bad he couldn’t have played on a 37 win team, it was an enormous mistake to trade for him. Whether it’s Thibs or Leon, you have beef with someone in the braintrust.

I’ve said before I wouldn’t have traded for him and based on his track record I wouldn’t have been the least bit surprised if he flopped in any minutes we gave him. Having given up a god damn first-round pick for him though, we should probably find out for sure!

I enjoyed Hustle, and thought Juancho did so well as an actor that I’m now weirdly invested in him as a basketball player.

Speaking of movies that deliver exactly what they promise: there is a new Fletch movie (Confess, Fletch) starring Jon Hamm that is currently out in (some) theaters, and available to rent On Demand (which is how I saw it), and it is a lot of fun. And much truer to the spirit of the books (which I love) than the Chevy Chase movie (which I loved when I was a teenager). And the studio has basically buried it, which stinks, because I’d gladly watch a half dozen more of them. But even this one is worth the view.

If they lost games because they put him in the rotation — we’ll assume that for the time being even though I doubt it would have happened — that would have actually have been a good thing.

It might not have been a good thing in Tom Thibodeau’s eyes, but who cares?

But that’s not really why he should have been given minutes. He should have been given minutes because the team needs to take a shot with high-end potential guys like him. They have a massive dearth of them.

Yeah, I too thought Juancho was terrific.

I’ll check out the FLETCH pic, thx. I’ve actually never seen the Chevy Chase ones, and I was surprised to see the preview with Hamm, as in How did I not know this was happening? I guess your comment about the studio burying it is my answer. Also — Am happy to see the new one is directed by Greg Mottola. I loved his debut gem, THE DAYTRIPPERS (and his blink-and-you-miss-it cameo in Woody Allen’s CELEBRITY).

This beef is older than Joe Flacco.

How the hell is he still in the NFL?

(1) I’ve definitely said z-man is trolling before. I need to tune him out for awhile when we get into it. He didn’t really drop it. But this isn’t really a productive conversation.

(2) Djphan will likely be back for next year’s draft. He disappeared last year the same way. Unless he thinks he’s been banned when he can’t log into his account due to the site update.

(3) I had leftover sausage for breakfast

what kind of sausage EB?

last night for dinner did scrambled eggs, hash browns and sausages…it was those little round sausages…

there’s this Italian deli not too far away that has these incredibly delicious little link sausages though, wish i had some of them in the fridge/freezer…

so good…

finally got around to watching Thor: Love and Thunder…

sometimes it really is a good thing to simply be a fan…loved the movie…

I think Taika Waititi really found the key to the character in Ragnorak…

absolutely loved Russell Crowe in the movie…so good…

Chevy Chase is one of those guys who is such a complete d-bag that it’s hard to enjoy his work. His Fletch movies are mediocre but I’ve heard a lot of people say they dig the Jon Hamm version.

Caddyshack still slaps though.

If EG14000 is right, Leon and the Knicks errased all their mistakes with Hartenstein signing. Call it FOMO, love of data or hopeless romantic but I’m laying down a bet that he wins MIP.

I’ve been subsisting largely on fish tacos since I got to San Diego. I imagine this must be what it’s like for someone to have NY pizza for the first time.

Anybody got a Svi scouting report?

furkan korkmaz w better hops but worse fluidity

You guys never disappoint. Give me good entertainment almost every day. Cam Reddish, the new Frank!

Leon is the new Frank, bidiong. Cam might actually have potential.

Okay, that was funny.

Lockdown D. Shame about the handle. 😉

Many bet that Frank would be paid in euros last season and still enjoy their crow souvlaki!
Betting against Leon Rose should be harder to win imo but…You never know!

“The Cam Debate is really quite simple. If he actually is so bad he couldn’t have played on a 37 win team, it was an enormous mistake to trade for him. Whether it’s Thibs or Leon, you have beef with someone in the braintrust.”

They were 21-21 when they acquired him with 4 wings in front of him in the rotation. Thibs saw Cam as a roster replacement for Kevin Knox who was not in the rotation, and said that he would eventually play when players in front of him got hurt. Then when there were injuries, he played a reasonable amount of mpg and then had a season-ending injury at the 214 minute mark. Unlike Knox, he’s still under contract for another full year and at worst becomes a RFA after that. I don’t see how making a guy like Cam understand that he has to earn minutes to displace a rotation player is an “enormous mistake” when he still has a year left on his rookie deal.

That is, unless you conflate Cam with the more general “enormous mistake” of being at all concerned with the ramifications that playing Cam (or any of the young players) had on winning or losing. But that is water under the Thibodeau Bridge.

Churros for thought
If Leon Rose turns the Knicks to Contenders in 3yrs time would the 19th and 11th incinerated picks still being considered as mistakes or as MultiD chess?

Enormous is a bit strong, Noble.

If we had trade a 2nd round pick for Cam, would you still be upset? Bc maybe the difference lies in the fact I think there’s a strong chance that it will be a 2nd.

So the Raptors ate Mykhailiuk’s 2022-23 player option of $1.6 mill. Here’s a less than glowing assessment from when he was waived by Masai:

https://raptorsrapture.com/2022/08/29/raptors-waive-svi-mykhailiuk/

“If we had trade a 2nd round pick for Cam, would you still be upset? Bc maybe the difference lies in the fact I think there’s a strong chance that it will be a 2nd.”

Actually two seconds.

Rings of Power gonna have a hard time making all this filler pay off. This weekend’s episode was weak AF.

How the heck did these guys spend a quarter bil and not end up with the rights to any of Tolkien’s good stuff?

recently went through the extended versions of Fellowship of the Ring, the Two Towers and Return of the King…

really enjoyed the extra content, I can’t remember the books at all hardly, so the extra material really helped the story make sense…

Trading the 19th pick in a loaded draft for heavily protected future 1st that had a significant chance of not conveying was a mistake. Trading that pick for a 3rd year player that hasn’t played good basketball since going to prom was a mistake. Trashing whatever trade value that player had remaining by burying him might have been a mistake but was probably inevitable since he hasn’t been good since high school.

Who cares which mistake in the series of mistakes was biggest? The whole situation was a mistake from the start and never should have happened.

How the heck did these guys spend a quarter bil and not end up with the rights to any of Tolkien’s good stuff?

From what I’ve read, JRR Tolkien’s estate, which is run by his son, is a huge pain in the ass to deal with and basically refuses to license anymore material. Supposedly, he hated the LOTR movies so anything under his control is untouchable until it goes out of copyright.

Neither of yesterday’s signings are meaningful in terms of the on-court product — or if they are, the season has taken a very bad left turn — but as Macri noted in this morning’s newsletter, it suggests we may be done trying to pull off any trades before camp, because we no longer have an open roster spot to make a multi-player deal slightly easier.

(Though I suppose you could look at Arcidiacono and Mykhailiuk as potential replacements for, respectively, Deuce and Cam as a point guard and a wing who are not expected to play. So maybe one or both are in trade talks?)

Cyber, Willy AND Juancho won MVPs. Juancho for the championship game, and Willy for the whole thing.

My bad. Thanks, Alan. And good for him, he seems like a nice kid. But until now he isn’t a good NBA player, let’s see if he can build on this prestigious accolade.

Svi is on a partially guaranteed contract, for only 50K, so in a way we still have the roster spot open. Can’t find Arcidiacono’s contract details but i’d bet he’s on a similar contract. Probably we still have the two roster spots available if we want.

I think The Artist Formerly Known as Vincoug (I think, correct me if I’m wrong, ThisChicanery) said it best. All we’re really arguing about when it comes to Cam is *when* the biggest screw up in this clusterfuck occurred.

We traded a pick that would’ve let us pick multiple good players for a pick that now seems at least 50/50 to become two seconds, traded that pick for an unremarkable player with 1.5 years left on his deal, then promptly advertised to the world that we didn’t hold said player in high regard.

I think the original sin was the single dumbest transaction of the bunch because it was so obviously stupid at the time, but it’s a mess from start to finish. There’s truly no need to defend any of it, just say we screwed up and you hope we’ll learn from it.

I suppose you can try the whole “don’t cry over spilled milk” thing, but that rings hollow. Keep in mind Leon Rose has chosen to build the team in a way that allows for basically no margin for error at all–I’m constantly told we’re looking for star players late in the draft, looking for diamonds in the rough, etc. If that’s truly what we’re hoping for, we really don’t get mulligans on this kind of transaction.

While I’m on the subject, I’m sure this will also get dismissed as crying over spilled milk or whatever, but a team in our position should not be giving roster spots to Ryan Arcidiacono.

Again, I’ve been told we’re looking to unearth star talent in unconventional ways. In the rare occasions this has happened for other teams in the past (e.g. FVV), one method of achieving it has been giving fringe roster spots to intriguing UDFAs and/or 2nd rounders.

That’s what we’d be doing if we were really looking to outsmart the competition in this sense. Ryan Arcidiacono is a zero upside proposition, even if it’s admittedly fun to hear Clyde go to war with his name.

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