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2024-25 Game Thread: Knicks @ Pacers: Double Down Time!

The Knicks kicked the Pacers’ asses in their first meeting together, but I would love to see them do it again.

Let’s get back to over .500, and on the way to 58 wins!

Let’s go, Knicks!

213 replies on “2024-25 Game Thread: Knicks @ Pacers: Double Down Time!”

Re: Ben R’s take on the last thread, sounds about right. Still, I think it’s fair game to wonder about whether the overpay for Bridges was necessary. KAT was a totally fair deal on paper, and OG is arguable either way. But the packaging of every single actual first rounder (five in total) for a non-superstar is hard to justify or handwave away.

But the reality is that when you look at what came in vs. what went out since the end of June 2022, when not a single starter currently on the roster was signed and Deuce and Sims were replacement-level players on rookie deals, you have to hand it to Leon. Again, the asking price for KAT alone at that time was a bunch of firsts and good young players, and no one thought he would be shopped even at that price.

It’s also important to note that the two most questionable deals in terms of value were with teams that no one believed would even deal with us. Some of the price paid was to break the ice. At least no one can continue to think it is impossible to deal with those teams.

It is indeed possible that this is as good as it gets, but that is really, really good! And yes, a bit of luck and it could all come together in a magical run. So for the most part, I’m good.

Definitely feels like the scouting report says to put Mikal in screens as often as possible

Looks like another game where the Knicks are driving to take stupid 2s while the other team fires away from 3pt range.

Gonna be a game of runs, apparently…

Let’s hope we get the last one.

I mean I like the aggressive takes to the rim but every time they miss it leads to an open 3 in transition for Indiana.

Sims shows flashes on defense but JFC he’s a total waste on the offensive end and just clogs up the offense.

The problem with having one of the most offensively skilled centers of the last few decades is it makes the contrast with Jericho Sims very stark.

Why were they not running pick and rolls with the second unit. Weird.

Mikal has been pretty bad. Yuck.

Deuce with his worst JB impersonation on the last play…

As a team too few threes and too few fouls in the quarter but it’s a long game…

By way of perhaps only salvage value, I’d put the ball in Mikal’s hands with this unit.

We took five 3s in the 1st, one of them was forced by the shotclock

Pacers took 12

I wonder if the Bucks could trade Lillard to the Heat. They have to do something and it makes more sense to rebuild.

Maybe someone should recognize that Mathurin has the hot hand and actually try to cover him from the 3pt line.

The “Mikal for Matheson, who says no?” drill is gonna spit out a disappointing answer if you’re an honest Knick fan.

KAT needs to stop finishing off these bad passes, it’s driving up his assisted basket percentage which makes him a worse isolation player

Having said that I’ll take a 3pt halftime lead though it should be a bit larger lead.

Pacers lucky to be down only 3. We made a lot of dumb plays but honestly not impressed with the Pacers offense. They chucked up a lot of bad 3s that went in. If we clean up ourselves we should take this.

When we move the ball we are a pleasure to watch, alas we constantly remind me of an old saying about a cow who fills a bucket of milk and then kicks it to the ground, every time we could widen the lead we start doing dumb things on both sides of the ball…

But it’s game-9 and I think as a whole we’re improving…

OG’s playing really well.

OG’s handle looks a bit improved. I’m not sure I want him creating all that much more until he starts finishing better at the rim, but I think there has been a bit of progress.

Edit: just as I say that he got to the rim but couldn’t finish.

These rim outs are gonna drive me insane but the defense looks much better than it did to start

Halliburton is the cockiest player in the NBA and he has no right to be

He’s not the most likable guy in the league.

See? Mikal is money from 10 feet. Now we just need to get him to do other things…

Brunson has not found KAT a few times tonight when it would have led to pretty open 3s.

I have a bad feeling about this game. Hope I’m wrong. I’m not in the mood for another day of gloom here tomorrow.

Nothing says “Tom Thibodeau” more than playing a six man rotation in a game in November

If it’s not a blowout I have very little faith right now the Knicks will win close games like this. Absolutely pathetic stretch at this moment.

Team still looks poorly coached, and Thibs is running the starters into the ground. I’m really not feeling the coaching job he is doing so far this season.

Here i am. My team took a beating against our arch-rivals, so i need a Knicks win even more than usual.

Carlisle’s unfair using his full bench while depleted,
he should follow our guidelines and go with 7 players…
The rules are the rules! 🤨

Hart really needs to stop bitching at the refs. It’s not gonna serve him well long term.

We really need to figure out how to generate more 3s. It’s hard to put teams away playing like we do.

Weirdly, before this game Mikal was shooting 35% from three. Which isn’t great, but it’s sort of average. Today, though, he’s not close.

We’d be up by double figures if Towns would stop with the shots that go all the way in and then pop back out. All damn game.

With the way DDV is playing for Minnesota they might just give him back to the Knicks for free.

I truly can’t believe how badly Mikal is shooting from 3.

I think his release is just too high.

Did they stole a basket from OG? Weird…

Said he stepped out of bounds. Clyde said, “shenanigans.” Hahaha

They also gave a Pacer a three when they first called it a two. That’s a four point turnaround without anything happening.

If you’ve ever played NBA2K for any length of time you know what one of the reasons you don’t play all your starters for 40 minutes is that their energy bar starts to get low

If you’ve ever played NBA2K for any length of time you know what one of the reasons you don’t play all your starters for 40 minutes is that their energy bar starts to get low

LOL

After watching that Jets game, I turn this on

Wow. I didn’t make it past the 2nd Cardinal drive.

Towns not taking anywhere enough 3’s but nice to seem him so strong in the paint.

This is another one that was winnable but is just slipping away because the team can’t execute in crunch time.

Team is playing below its talent level, and the substitution patterns are absurd.

This is another one that was winnable but is just slipping away because the team can’t execute in crunch time.

Team is playing below its talent level, and the substitution patterns are absurd.

Sounds like a Thibs issue. 30 game tryout for Thibs before Rose considers removing him

Yeah, I’m just gonna come out and say it. Thibs is doing a shitty job coaching this group so far, in just about every conceivable way.

Losing the 3PA game this badly is a totally own goal. Really have to make figuring that out a priority.

We have no 3pt defense and the whole league knows it’s our Achilles heel.

Thibs defensive scheme is to allow 3s

Give up open 3s

Don’t take a lot of threes while playing five out

Later Thibs

This is a finesse team that should not be 30th in pace and damn sure shouldn’t be shooting the 3 this infrequently. Thibs might not be the guy you want coaching this particular group of players. I’m getting sick of watching the square peg round hole shit.

What a terrible day for ny sports

So, it’s not just my teams and we’re all together in this.

This was over the second we lost the lead. Wevhave zero comeback ability

Another winnable game that we let slip away because we’re bad down the stretch, It’s hard to maintain the “wait until game 20” rational stance while watching the games live… 😃

Right now Bridges is shooting like shit, killing the offense, and our coach is on par to have the starters cooked in December…

65 minutes from their bench, 39 minutes from ours, and down the stretch the Knicks look exhausted and non-competitive.

Awful defense by Mikal on that Hali 3. In fairness to him, he’s played 39 of 45.5 minutes, but still.

If you gave the Pacers Thibs as the head coach it wouldn’t work. He is a defense first guy, but doesn’t have his pieces

TJ Warren had 35 points in the G league today. Thibs will burn his starters out and not get wins out of it.

Mike D’Antoni was like the inverse of this. He was gonna play SSOL whether the point guard was Chris Duhon, Toney Douglas, or the last few hundred minutes of Mike Bibby. I’m not real optimistic that Thibs is going to get the best results from this personnel. He’s out-Thibsing even himself here

Pacers 46 attempted three pointers, Knicks 25.

Please could someone tell our coach this is 2024…

Pacers 46 attempted three pointers, Knicks 25.

Please someone tell our coach this is 2024…

25 attempts would rank last in the league

Ok..10 games in and I think Thibs has seen enough. As soon as Achiuwa is healthy, I think he starts him and lets Hart run that 2nd unit with Deuce. It’s great to have a guard who rebounds as well as Hart does. But the problem is, it’s always the opposing bigs who hurt us on the boards because KAT is literally the only guy up front who can rebound. Anunoby is just not a good rebounder. KAT should be exhausted every game because he has to battle 2 bigs every possession for boards as OG is not necessarily a non-factor there, but he’s awfully close to it. What made our frontline so effective last season is we had 2 guys who went after boards up front until Randle got hurt. And Hartenstein was such a physical rebounder that we had very little drop-off when Randle went down. At this rebounding pace, KAT will be worn out by January!

It wasn’t just the amount of 3’s, it was the quality. Open look after open look.

It’s not outlandish to wonder if the Pacers are just better than us.

Ok..10 games in and I think Thibs has seen enough. As soon as Achiuwa is healthy, I think he starts him and lets Hart run that 2nd unit with Deuce

That’s what he will do because he can’t coach unless it’s his way.

It’s not outlandish to wonder if the Pacers are just better than us.

The Knicks did beat them last month with this same roster. The biggest gap is in coaching. This isn’t a Thibs roster

We scored 121 points. The problem is not the offense. The problem is the defense. We had no answer for Mathurin and Hali/Turner. We also probably got gassed late because Thibs refused to use the bench.

When I tuned in we were up 10, so, yeah, gonna go drink now. De-brief tomorrow.

I tuned in and we were up 4, so we probably have the 2 worst plus-minus of KB tonight. 😛 😀

Just to reiterate, I think our problem is much more on the defensive end of the floor in the fourth quarter. We were outscored 40-27 in this one. In Atlanta, it was 32-27. In Houston it was 28-22. In Cleveland it was 36-26.

This team has no defensive identity. Some of that is due to Thibs running the starters ragged, but there’s more to it than that. We simply can’t get stops.

I’m not really feeling the “it’ll take 20 games” theory either. This is a team that has talent and looks like crap a fairly high percentage of the time. It’s the coach’s job to get the most out of the talent. The situation is not improving. We’re getting beaten regularly by mediocre opponents. I could buy into this team if I was seeing some incremental improvement but this was maybe the most poorly played game of the season given our opponents. Just no clue on either side of the ball in the fourth quarter, like nobody has any idea what they are supposed to be doing.

That game was definitely frustrating and we sucked down the stretch, but we lost to a good team that we annihilated at MSG a few weeks ago. And had the #1 offense in the NBA last season.

This site should be a lot of fun tomorrow though….

It’s meaningless to talk about generating more 3s. This is not the issue. We scored enough points. Indiana dropped 132 on us. This is the issue. Our thin bench and tired legs in the fourth quarter only exacerbate the problem. This team is going nowhere the way they defend.

Knicks made 7 threes

Pacers made 21

The Knicks lost the 3 point battle by 42 points.

“The Knicks did beat them last month with this same roster.”

True, but which Pacers looked more like the team that went to the ECFs? They’re a really good and well-coached team. And they have reinforcements coming.

Thibs is running a six man rotation. It’s the starters plus Mcbride. Why have 3 rookies on standard deals on the bench and use none? You think the players could give more effort without tired legs?

Cut Matt Ryan and sign Chuma Okeke if what Thibs needs is defenders.

It’s brutal Thibs had to play the starters so many minutes, but does anyone think that playing the rookies more would slow Indy down? Seriously?

We also play this high-effort style of offense so much of the time, with these long, grind-it-out possessions. We have the personnel to generate easy baskets early in the clock, we’re just not going to do that because reasons. Whip the ball around the perimeter a little bit, set yourself up for some easier looks.

Running out of gas in the fourth is becoming a theme with this team. The whole approach is just off.

I recently forced myself to watch the 2004 Red Sox documentary on Netflix, that was more fun than watching the Knicks tonight.

My biggest issue with Thibs right now is that he has a chance to build equity with the bench but he’s so committed to winning these hard-to-win early season road games that he will go with 6.

I also think the Pacers got a lot of open 3’s because they were able to get into the paint with ease, especially Hali. That’s a recurring theme.

But just to reiterate, expect the Pacers to do this to a lot of teams. They are a high-octane offense, as d-mar pointed out.

That game was definitely frustrating and we sucked down the stretch, but we lost to a good team that we annihilated at MSG a few weeks ago. And had the #1 offense in the NBA last season.

Agree.

It was 3 major things.

1. The Pacers are a very talented team, especially on offense.

2. We got tired down the stretch because some of our bench is hurt and Thibs doesn’t trust the rest.

3. We have some consistent defensive issues guarding the P&R and the paint.

#1 is not going away. The Pacers are going to remain a top offense.

#2 should improve when Precious is back and then ultimately when Mitch is back.

#3 This is kind of structural and something to worry about.

Looking at the East I’ll eventually stop getting frustrated at the possibility of not winning over 50 games and just be fine with a top 4 seed and hopefully be relatively healthy come playoff time even if they regress a bit with the win total.

Having said that I still expect to win at least 50 games again.

Sure, the Warriors drafted their two best players, but that was 15 years ago now. They have been hybriding their way along for a while now, and, somehow, it’s working. Would be cool to see them deep in the playoffs again. Hopefully they can keep this up.

Donnie, that just showd the immense value if drafting great talent. Even 15 years later you can still be good running an inferior team building strategy after winning a bunch of rings the smart way

Sure, the Warriors drafted their two best players, but that was 15 years ago now. They have been hybriding their way along for a while now, and, somehow, it’s working. Would be cool to see them deep in the playoffs again. Hopefully they can keep this up.

Kerr is putting on a coaching clinic so far. He certainly doesn’t panic and overplay guys. He has a system and everybody buys in.

Donnie, that just showd the immense value if drafting great talent. Even 15 years later you can still be good running an inferior team building strategy after winning a bunch of rings the smart way

Ainge would have cashed out the vets. Presti probably would have too. Meyers stepped down because he didn’t want to be around for their twilight. No dynasty ever came back for a swan song until the Warriors did it in 2022. If they get a second swan song, Curry has to be in a top-4 of all-time conversation. His resume would actually match his talent.

Thibs’ man defense scheme just isn’t working with some of these good shooting teams.

In the halfcourt down the stretch, Indy would either screen the ball handler (TJ, Hali) who would draw another man and kick for an open three, or they would set a screen for a shooter and get him wide open for a three.

Thibs has to have a switching or zone defense available for stuff like this, it’s malpractice not to.

And, as I look up from typing, I see the Thunder scrubs have erased much of that 30 pt 4th Q lead. Never look down in today’s NBA.

Haha, Curry gets it back up to 10 and Daigneault counters by putting the scrubs back in for the final minute. He never should have taken them out!

Lamelo just hit a ridiculous 3 to force OT

Both the Hornets and the Sixers overtime starters are worse than the OKC scrubs.

Sixers are running their offense through a rookie with Paul George on the court.

Minnesota blew the game at home vs the Heat without Butler. I haven’t seen much of their games but judging by the box scores dunno what is up with DDV’s awful shooting numbers. Randle struggled tonight too.

Paul George reached his minutes limit at the end of regulation and hasn’t played in OT.

I’ve seen very little of him (because a) he rarely plays and b) when he does play he plays for the Hornets), but, man, LaMelo Ball is an unattractive man. Maybe it’s because he’s standing next to Oubre, but even if he was next to Blake Griffin I think he’d probably look ugly.

The most maddening thing about the no-switching defensive scheme is that we usually have several switchable defenders on the floor. We have the personnel to be a good switching team!

The most maddening thing about the no-switching defensive scheme is that we usually have several switchable defenders on the floor. We have the personnel to be a good switching team!

Thibs is known for his lack of in game adjustments. Post game he makes complaints about the defense, but isn’t changing his scheme.

New York Basketball
@NBA_NewYork
Monica McNutt as Knicks drop to 4-5:

“I think this team desperately needs to get healthy. 3Q [Pacers] go 10 deep. Turner/Haliburton rest. Come in 4th, literally go gangbusters…Pacers hit more 3s in 4th than Knicks in game

“To me by the time you get to 4th starters look gassed”

Even the MSG team is calling out the coach

Chet has an iliac wing fracture (that’s the big “wing” of the pelvis) and will be evaluated in 8-10 weeks. I have never heard of a basketball player having that injury before.

The good news is that bone heals well and if there is no associated soft tissue injury he should be good as new when he heals.

The bad news is that this is the second “brittle bone” type injury for him. Is it suggesting that he may be a bit brittle? His physique doesn’t exactly scream Iron Man.

I guess we’ll see. Chet is a joy to watch, just a fantastic player when he’s healthy, as he was all last year. Hope this is just a fluke one-off kind of thing.

Have alerted Mike K about the Newsbot issue

Rough one last night. We are really testing the theoretical limits of the 8 man rotation.

Even the MSG team is calling out the coach

I don’t agree this constitutes calling out the coach. Monica is saying the injuries are shortening the rotation. Thibs clearly thinks Towns fortieth minute is much more productive than the first minute of Hukporti, and similarly for other possibilities in our bench. He is probably right about this. I think if his bench options were closer to starters in quality he’d play them more. From Monica’s phrasing, she agrees with that (or at least isn’t suggesting she disagrees)

At this point in the season he has to play his bench no matter who is sitting there. A six man rotation is a bad joke.

“Rough one last night. We are really testing the theoretical limits of the 8 man rotation.”

It was 1 minute away from being a 7 man rotation and 10 minutes from being a 6 man. It’s not like KAT and JB are out and there are big time minutes to fill, its Precious and Payne for god’s sake.. Huk nailed to the bench and Kolek gets 1 minute? Health is not the issue, but at this rate it soon will be.

EDIT: lots of others beat me to it!

I kind of agree with that. My point was that Monica didn’t call out the coach. She just blamed the anhort rotation on injuries.

I have to acknowledge Thibs’ ability to shift the Overton window on the rotation – a week ago I was frustrated he was “only” playing 8 guys. Now I’m begging him for an 8-man rotation.

I wasn’t clear.

It’s an 8 man rotation theoretically but in practice a six man rotation.

Hard to play an NbA season like that.

This team is slow, and not just in pace. KAT & Bridges are objectively better than Randle & Donte but they are not as quick and those half seconds are important on both sides of the ball.

This team is also very small.

MVP caliber play from Brunson will cover up a lot of structural issues and Mitch will address the size when he’s healthy (but will unleash new problems). Things will certainly get better, but disqualifying problems abound and will not go away after 20 games. That was a Pacers team missing two starters and Obi, against Thibs’ Game-7-of-the-NBA-Finals rotation, and they drove a tank through our structural holes.

The one thing I will say about Thibs is it makes no sense to acquire Mikal Bridges and use him like Quentin Grimes. He’s got that tentative look that we’ve seen from a myriad of players who have been misused in this offense.

As soon as he was drafted people started wondering whether Chet was going to wind up like Porzingis and get hurt a lot because he’s so thin. The early returns are not good. If he winds up being injury prone, at least they’ll have I-Hart eventually.

The one thing I will say about Thibs is it makes no sense to acquire Mikal Bridges and use him like Quentin Grimes.

Who do you want to shoot less often?

Towns 24.9 PPG TS 65.5%
Brunson 25 PPG; TS 58.2%
OG 15.6 PPG; TS 60.1%
Hart 13.8 PPG; TS 66.7%

Right now the only obvious negative on offense is Bridges shooting poorly from 3 away from the corner. We are the 2nd rated offense and very efficient; albeit clearly too slow pace wise. If we could step up the pace or Bridges could work out the issues with his shot; we’d probably be the #1 offense. If we could do both, we’d almost certainy be #1 at least until KP is back in Boston. And it’s still early. This offense is going to improve a bit just from expereince together.

The problem so far is 100% defense.

Chet was going to wind up like Porzingis and get hurt a lot because he’s so thin. The early returns are not good.

The early returns are that today is going to be the first game he’s ever missed since his playing career began.

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