Knicks Morning News (2016.12.01)

  • [NYTimes] He Works Day and Night for the Nets. And the Other Nets.
    (Thursday, December 01, 2016 2:26:51 AM)

    Chris McCullough’s dual career with two Brooklyn teams is unusual, but a split existence is not. 45 N.B.A. players have been assigned on 103 occasions this season to D-League stints.

  • [NYTimes] Knicks 106, Timberwolves 104: Knicks Outlast Timberwolves as Carmelo Anthony Hits Late Jumper in Win
    (Thursday, December 01, 2016 5:41:42 AM)

    Anthony missed two critical shots in the final stretch before making a shot with 2.3 seconds remaining to lift the Knicks.

  • [NYDN] Knicks’ Joakim Noah says he misses T-Wolves coach Tom Thibodeau
    (Wednesday, November 30, 2016 7:47:52 PM)

    Joakim Noah’s disappointing beginning with the Knicks hit yet another snag when the center suffered a sprained ankle.

  • [NYDN] Carmelo Anthony hits game-winning jumper as Knicks edge T-Wolves
    (Wednesday, November 30, 2016 7:42:58 PM)

    It was a bizarre and difficult game for Carmelo Anthony. Until redemption arrived in the final two plays.

  • [NYDN] T-Wolves’ Zach LaVine getting ready to dunk on Kristaps Porzingis
    (Wednesday, November 30, 2016 10:37:48 AM)

    Kristaps Porzingis is one of the top-two tallest players in the NBA, and Zach LaVine is the best leaper in the league.

  • [NYPost] Karl-Anthony Towns, Kristaps Porzingis put on a show
    (Wednesday, November 30, 2016 10:52:11 PM)

    MINNEAPOLIS — Kristaps Porzingis and Karl-Anthony Towns were the stars of the show for 59 minutes Wednesday, both showing why they are the two transcendent gems of the 2015 draft. Carmelo Anthony may have won the game with 2.3 seconds left in the Knicks’ 106-104 victory over the Timberwolves, but the Porzingis-Towns duel became a…

  • [NYPost] Carmelo Anthony’s late-game heroics save Knicks
    (Wednesday, November 30, 2016 5:55:44 PM)

    MINNEAPOLIS — If Jeff Hornacek can turn Carmelo Anthony back to his clutch self from his Denver days, the Knicks coach may be worth all of his $5 million salary. After blowing all of a 17-point early fourth-quarter lead to the Timberwolves, Hornacek directed the Knicks to put the ball back in the hands of…

  • [NYPost] Carmelo Anthony is opening a sports bar on his home turf
    (Wednesday, November 30, 2016 3:35:05 PM)

    Now he’ll have his own place to hang after games.

  • [NYPost] ‘Thibs’ used to give Noah and Rose hell — and they loved it
    (Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:35:46 AM)

    MINNEAPOLIS — Joakim Noah misses him now, but admits he and his former coach Tom Thibodeau “butted heads’’ across their time together with the Bulls. Derrick Rose enjoyed his tenure with Thibodeau, but says he spent a lot of time with the coach “cussing me out.’’ There was a lot of reminiscing at the respective Wednesday…

  • [NYPost] Iman Shumpert unloads on Phil Jackson in ‘posse’ fallout
    (Wednesday, November 30, 2016 8:51:03 AM)

    Iman Shumpert to Phil Jackson: You’re dead to me. The expressive former Knicks guard, who idolized the former Bulls coach while growing up in Chicago, then was dealt away by the Zen Master to the Cavaliers in early 2015, issued a candid and brutal takedown of Jackson in the aftermath of a racially loaded feud…

  • [NYPost] Joakim Noah’s latest woe is either alibi or just more gloom
    (Wednesday, November 30, 2016 7:50:34 AM)

    MINNEAPOLIS — Joakim Noah’s chance at redemption will have to wait. The Knicks starter center’s struggles hit another speed bump as a sprained left ankle prevented him from facing his former Bulls coach Tom Thibodeau when the Knicks held off the Timberwolves 106-104 in the first game of a home-and-home series Wednesday at Target Center….

  • [ESPN] Thursday’s Knicks News: Towns, Porzingis put on a show; Melo hits winning basket
    (Thursday, December 01, 2016 6:05:56 AM)

    Thursday’s Knicks News: Towns, Porzingis put on a show; Melo hits winning basket

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks start fast, hold off Timberwolves
    (Wednesday, November 30, 2016 11:34:58 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis finished a distant second to Karl-Anthony Towns in last season’s Rookie of the Year voting. Porzingis also finished a distant second to Towns in points in Wednesday night’s Knicks-Timberwolves game at the Target Center.

  • [NY Newsday] Joakim Noah misses game with sprained left ankle
    (Wednesday, November 30, 2016 8:47:00 PM)

    Knicks center Joakim Noah missed Wednesday night’s game against the Timberwolves with a sprained left ankle he suffered in the first quarter of Monday’s loss to Oklahoma City.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks narrowly hang on for win over Timberwolves
    (Wednesday, November 30, 2016 11:00:39 PM)

    The Knicks beat the Timberwolves, 106-104, on Wednesday night in Minnesota.

  • [SNY Knicks] Noah out Wednesday with sprained ankle
    (Wednesday, November 30, 2016 6:44:48 PM)

    Joakim Noah will not play Wednesday against the Timberwolves because of a sprained left ankle, the team announced.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks look to get back on track against Timberwolves
    (Wednesday, November 30, 2016 5:01:36 PM)

    Minnesota hosts New York on Wednesday at Target Center.

  • [SNY Knicks] Rose vs. Jennings: What the numbers say
    (Wednesday, November 30, 2016 2:15:36 PM)

    The eye test tells me that the Knicks are at their best when Rose and Jennings are surrounded by three jump-shooters, considering neither does a particularly good job of stretching the defense from three-point range.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks should be in no rush to extend Rose’s contract
    (Wednesday, November 30, 2016 8:43:33 AM)

    Derrick Rose, whose contract expires at season’s end, has not yet discussed a possible extension with the New York Knicks. And that’s how it should be.

  • 154 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2016.12.01)”

    That was an…interesting win last night.

    First – THCJ, Theo, JK47, noblehumper — please let me dream for a little while that Karl Anthony Towns will want to come back and play for his favorite team in a few years, and that KP and KAT will rule the NBA as Knicks for a decade. I don’t need your “realism” yet on that front lol.

    Second – WTF was up with Melo and Rose last night? It wasn’t just that they shot poorly – they both played like total crap on both ends of the court. Did they go out partying in red-hot Minneapolis the night before? Rose especially was possibly the worst player in the NBA last night… except for Kris Dunn. Wasn’t that guy supposed to be the most NBA-ready guard in the draft?

    Third – Porzingis was great of course, and I thought was pretty great as a rim protector and rebounder in the 4th quarter especially. I don’t think Shabazz Muhammad is going to challenge him again anytime soon. But something to keep an eye on — he’s averaging 37 minutes/game in the last 9 games, and the only game in which he played <37 minutes was because of early foul trouble. I think Hornacek needs to find a few more minutes of rest for him.

    Fourth – back to Rose. We are now 18 games in and even two games short of the 20 games we agreed we would give him, I think it's pretty clear he is not the long-term solution at PG for this team. I never really thought he was, and I think he's been 20% better than most of the "realists" thought he would be, but he's just not good anymore. It's not even the physical ability — it just doesn't seem like his head is in the game 100% of the time.

    I don't know what the long-term PG answer is. It's not clear to me that we'll have enough $ to even get Jrue Holiday at the end of the year. I guess we could get one in the draft, but let's say we get to 44-45 wins — that's probably the 18-20th pick in the draft, and at least as of now, all the highly touted PGs like Fultz, Lonzo Ball, Dennis Smith, and Malik Monk will be gone by then.

    Could Brandon Jennings be our starting PG next year?

    Last thought – I am more and more impressed with Hornacek in that he does not seem to be a stubborn coach with any sort of fixed thought process, in that if Derrick Rose (or Noah) is playing like total garbage, he’s going to sit the rest of the game. Carmelo was playing poorly last night, but at the very least he still tilts the defense with his (theoretical) shooting. But Rose is another story. I loved seeing him bench Rose for the end of the game last night.

    They’ll definitely have enough room to sign Holiday, theoretically. It would probably require all of their cap room and they’d have to renounce Jennings, but they’d have the money for him.

    Wasn’t that guy supposed to be the most NBA-ready guard in the draft?

    I thought it was supposed to be Buddy Hield? Dunn just had more theoretical upside. I was never a Dunn fan. But then again, I didn’t like the top of last year’s draft period after the top two, so I don’t necessarily blame Minnesota. They just had a shit pick. Thank goodness 2015 was such an amazing draft!!

    I think Derrick Rose is a guy who needs the offense to be ran through him in order to be effective, but he’s not good enough anymore for that to happen. My personal opinion is that we should relegate Melo and KP to catch and shoot/catch and finish opportunities and then let Rose attack and make decisions off the pick and roll. He’s a guy who needs to be involved when you consider the only thing he does at an elite level is break down a defense. I’m willing to be patient with him so long as everyone else is shooting well, but Melo and Noah haven’t been what we need from them and it’s putting more pressure on a guy like Rose to play better.

    This Knicks team through 18 games isn’t what I expected and that’s solely because Noah hasn’t been playing. KP is honestly where I expected him to be as I thought he would produce 10-11 wins this season, and if we had 500 minutes of Joakim Noah we would very likely be closer to 13-5 than 9-9. If Joakim Noah can get to a point where he can play 30 minutes a night we will be a lot better off for it. And 30 minutes where he actually grabs the rebound instead of tipping it up in the air.

    Even with Dunn’s age and recent play I would still trade an old guy or two to Thibs for a package surrounding Kris Dunn (or Zach LaVine).

    Terrible finish.
    But I had a thought this morning:
    The Knicks were able to win a game with Melo (who has played three of his worst games as a Knick) and Rose playing dismal games and their starting 2 and 5 injured. And KAT put up ridiculous numbers.
    So, maybe a little perspective.

    There are plenty of good teams that struggled early with bad play and injuries, but discovered as a result bench players and depth. Jennings and Kuz, O’Quinn and Holiday and Hernangomez have been surprisingly useful contributors.

    I have no doubt that Melo will sort out his problems.
    I am hopeful that Rose’s play will become more consistent. I’m even hopeful that Noah at a minimum will become an average center with brief spurts of excellence.
    I’m not sure many of us thought they would be .500 at this point. I think KP is ahead of where many thought he’d be.
    A couple more rebounds a game and he’s an elite 4.
    I’m actually quite pleased, however frustrating they are, with our progress.
    Honacek also is better than I thought.

    So frustrating, even infuriating, but hopeful signs.

    So… can we make Clarence Gaines GM?
    Or at least VP of player personnel? This dude can find talent.

    KP
    Kuzminskas
    Hernangomez
    NDour at least looks like an NBA player
    Randle was in Europe, probably will be on the team at some point.

    As bad as the 4th quarter was last night, the boys won the game! We all know that over the last few years, they most certainly would have lost a game like this driving us all nuts!

    As I said in the game thread, it was wonderful watching Jennings run the point with the euros in the 3rd quarter. We haven’t had PG play like that in a very very long time. I would be perfectly fine letting Jennings be the PG next year and beyond.

    Gentlemen, we have a bench. PJ deserves a lot of credit here. Cheezus, Willy, Jennings, Holiday, Baby Oak, N’Dour all look like NBA level contributors.

    I will give Rose a bit more time. As a previous poster stated, he really is most effective with the ball in his hands. Period. I still anticipate that he will figure it out and get better. He has already played better than some anticipated.

    I also believe that if Noah can get healthy, he will contribute mightily. I am a little concerned that he can’t seem to stay on the court so far. He is a really really good player though and we are going to need him.

    BJ should be back next year as the back up. He doesn’t score well enough to be a starter

    Most of the credit due for this game is hornacek, having the balls to sit rose was huuuuuuuge. Also holiday’s rebounding and astounding play was key, this guy gets it done. I would like to see him start next game if Lee is out. Just saying

    he’s averaging 37 minutes/game in the last 9 games, and the only game in which he played <37 minutes was because of early foul trouble. I think Hornacek needs to find a few more minutes of rest for him.

    This. I was encouraged earlier when Hornacek said he wouldn’t play KP at the 5 too much because of wear and tear. But now he appears ready to succumb to the pressure of winning now (especially as melo declines) and will ride the unicorn like Secretariat. Conservation! #savethetiger #savethewhale #savetheunicorn

    let me dream for a little while that Karl Anthony Towns will want to come back and play for his favorite team in a few years, and that KP and KAT will rule the NBA as Knicks for a decade.

    I’m tempted to again launch into how we probably could have had both had Phil just done his job in the first place. Melo is like The Cooler to this organization. Our cap is likely to be larded down with old guy contracts for quite some time and the odds for KP and KAT playing together favor them both taking the QO and then going to Brooklyn or Miami together.

    Interesting what Thibs might do. I figure he might offer Dieng for Taj. A really bold risky gambit would be to offer Wiggins/Dieng/Dunn for Boogie and flip this year’s pick for a wing like Barton. If they’re able to unload Pek in the process, they’d have a lot of cap to add depth to the team this summer (though they could waive and stretch him to also add cap). Could Boogie and Towns be effective in modern NBA?

    Amazing how fast Towns and KP superteaming it became a thing.

    Re the Wolves, they should trade Wiggins before his stock falls. People really believe in that kid and I don’t know why.

    Those disastrous 7 minutes in the 4th break down as follows, if you’re interested:

    Knicks: 0-10 FGs, 3/4 FTs, 4 rebounds, 3 TOs 1 block ,1 steal, 3 fouls

    Wolves: 8-14 FGs, 3/4 FTs, 9 rebounds 1 TOs, 1 block, 2 steals, 3 fouls

    Rose was the single worst player, going 0-3 with a turnover in 4 minutes, but basically everyone involved for the Knicks sucked.

    Could Boogie and Towns be effective in modern NBA?

    Yes, but probably not the most optimal combo. I’d almost try to then flip Boogie for a great point or wing.

    Last thought – I am more and more impressed with Hornacek in that he does not seem to be a stubborn coach with any sort of fixed thought process, in that if Derrick Rose (or Noah) is playing like total garbage, he’s going to sit the rest of the game. Carmelo was playing poorly last night, but at the very least he still tilts the defense with his (theoretical) shooting. But Rose is another story. I loved seeing him bench Rose for the end of the game last night.

    The Portland game where Rose came on strong at the end, Hornacek also benched him there, too. Only Jennings having a strain let Rose back in at the end.

    the hype over Wiggins made some sense when he was shooting over 50% in 3s during a stretch in the beginning of the season… now his numbers are regressing to the mean and it’s becoming really ugly real fast.

    The Wolves should definitely trade him, and I hope the Knicks never go anywhere near him.

    Wiggins is garbage and has the highest usage on that team, which is criminal. Perhaps the most surprising thing about him is his total inability to play defense despite having all the physical tools and being touted as a very good defender coming into college (where he also underperformed)

    It was college that first turned me off on Wiggins. When you can’t even dominate college when you’re a wing with size like Wiggins? What the fuck, dude? I really hate how the hype train is sometimes unstoppable, even when it’s been derailed for a few miles (“Nope, sorry, we already decided Wiggins was going to be a star when he was a high school senior. We locked it in there, so we have to keep calling him a future star. Sorry.”)

    Remember the ESPN article that was a debate last year about Wiggins’ future and the one side was like, “He might only be Carmelo Anthony” and it was, like, are you kidding me here, dude?

    Seems like every few years a 6’7-6’9 athletic wing is touted to be the next big thing coming out of HS.

    Harrison Barnes, Shabazz Muhahmed and now Wiggins.

    Ugh, Barnes is another one of these super inefficient guys who get pointz and get treated like they’re stars.

    Barnes at least had one good year. Lavine and Wiggins are both super athletic guys who can’t rebound, which is a huge red flag for me.

    I think the point in which people realize Wiggins isn’t actually that good is coming pretty soon. Towns is obviously a total stud, so if we’re to believe Wiggins is as well…why is Minny still awful? It’s a question people will start to ask after 2-3 years of talking about how great that team will be in 2-3 years. They’d be wise to trade him for a lottery pick before then.

    well, Barnes is not really a fair comparison to Wiggins, he only played in terrible teams and this is his 3rd year.

    I do think he could become a useful player on a better team, with a much more limited offensive role, like Barnes had in Golden State… that won’t happen soon, because pointz and the general perception of him being a star.

    however, Wiggins averages a .530 TS% for his career, which is literally exactly the same Carmelo Anthony averaged in the last 2 seasons with the Knicks (and he is at .533 this season so far), with a smaller usage percentage and while being a worse free throw shooter (but shooting 7 FTA per game while Melo shoots 4.5)

    he’s a terrible rebounder and is seemingly allergic to passing, but Carmelo is averaging 2.8 assists per 36 this season and Wiggins 2.3, not that different if you ask me.

    so yeah, I kinda agree with whoever said that Wiggins will be similar to Melo… the difference is that I believe his ceiling as a “star” is probably the level he’s showing right now, which is very Carmelo-esque in the end of his career.

    The possibility of KP and KAT joining to play for NYK is still very real. We just need to unload some of our veteran contracts in the coming three seasons and patiently build our team with some smart draft choices and value FA deal pickups like we did with Jennings. Don’t tell me neither one of them are talking about the possibility of player together in the future with the type of things KP is saying in the media about them changing the game together:

    “He was frustrated they didn’t execute the last play and didn’t get a shot,’’ Porzingis said. “I said, ‘Great game, stay healthy and keep playing like this and see you on Friday.’ ’’

    LOL Bro KAT ain’t leaving Minnesota until 2024 the earliest. They’re going to offer him all the money they can give him and he’s not going to say no.

    LOL Bro KAT ain’t leaving Minnesota until 2024 the earliest. They’re going to offer him all the money they can give him and he’s not going to say no.

    He’s gone in his fifth year the way Shaq upped and left Orlando.

    Wtf is wrong with Mike Malone. Starting Nurkic, who isn’t really good and has a pretty low ceiling, over Jokic, is nuts. I know he has a fondness for Nurkic and went to visit him in Europe but this makes no sense. The Wolves should trade Wiggins for Jokic and Faried it would be a huge coup.

    Shaq left Orlando for $300M and the city of Los Angeles. You can’t do that anymore.

    Starting Nurkic, who isn’t really good and has a pretty low ceiling, over Jokic, is nuts. I

    And you didn’t hear what Malone had to say about Jokic when people called him on burying the best rookie steal in the draft after KP.

    According to BSN Denver, Malone said this about the expectations regarding Jokic, “You guys got to understand, he’s not going to be the same player he was last year,” Malone said after Jokic scored eight points, grabbed 12 rebounds, struggled defensively, but notably closed the fourth quarter and overtime for Denver. “Gallo was out, Wilson Chandler was out. Last two months of the season we played our young guys, we played them 35 minutes a night almost. We’re healthy, we have guys playings, so everybody stop expecting Nikola Jokic to be something he’s not. I think it’s unfair to him.

    Shaq left Orlando for $300M and the city of Los Angeles. You can’t do that anymore.

    The contracts may not be as big anymore, but he can make a lot of money playing in NYC.

    Sounds like Jokic might be trade bait…

    Doesn’t Malone want Mudiay to learn from the great Derrick Rose? Who wouldn’t?

    Towns might make more money in endorsements and pay more in taxes in NY (but not much more, because taxes in Minnesota are decently high as well.) Also KP and KAT together instantly makes a team a chip contender, and we see people taking pay cuts for that oftentimes (though not after their rookie scale expires admittedly.)

    Also: Marshall Plumlee acquitted himself well last night. I had so many mixed feelings because as a UNC alum I find it abhorrent to even think of rooting for a Plumlee, but as a Knicks fan in a close game…

    Can’t tell the difference between Nurkic and Jokic / They both seem to me as “brutal euro-post-bears” with army haircuts…and -Kic

    even better, Denver should throw Jamal Murray in the trade, he looks really good so far.

    Also KP and KAT together instantly makes a team a chip contender, and we see people taking pay cuts for that oftentimes (though not after their rookie scale expires admittedly.)

    The key thing is that they already have an alpha bond as the elite talent of the same class the way Lebron, Melo and D-Wade do.

    With all of their flaws the Knicks are at .500, which is not too bad. If they can improve their defense and get just a little bit more out of Noah they should be contending for a playoff spot in the east. D Rose has been exceeding expectations, particularly on defense where he has been adequate. Adequate is a huge step up from last year’s Ole’ defense by the Knicks guards.

    What is our cap situation this summer? As I understand it we have 20M from Rose’s expiring. If we were to use that on someone else, what sort of wiggle room with exceptions would we have to bring back Jennings and Holiday?

    Hot take: Clippers need continue to underperform so they can be desperate and trade for Melo.

    The Nuggets may make a dumb trade involving Jokic, but the Knicks will not be the recipient. When has Phil ever gained value from a trade? Rangers fans may recognize him as the anti-Glen Sather. Adept at acquiring talent in free agency and the draft, absolutely brutal on trades and contracts.

    Let’s not get carried away with the recency bias, fellas. Towns is a future superstar and already a productive player, but last night’s game was his best game of the year by a country mile. I’m sure we wouldn’t be talking like this if he had put up the ORtg of 77 like he did last week against the Pels, or the 32 USG% on .417 TS% like he did a couple weeks before against the Lakers.

    I’d take Towns over every big man the Knicks have had this century aside from prime Chandler (and even then, I’d think hard on it), but keep this performance in balance with the times this year that he’s looked more like a rookie than an all-star.

    True enough, but the thought of a Towns KP front court still makes me need a change of clothes

    It’s a fantasy I can keep in my back pocket for three years until we whiff on KAT and max Andrew Wiggins instead

    @Ras1980

    Restricted free agency did not exist when Shaq left for LA. The NBA has closed all the loopholes that allowed you to buy a team. This is why even LAL rebuilds. They did after trading Shaq, and they’re doing it again now. Who is the best free agent the Lakers have signed since Shaq…? Old man Karl Malone? Jordan Hill? Luol Deng?

    Unless you’re a super smart front office that manages finances really well and so can build a very good team while maintaining max cap room or there’s some absurd cap spike, you aren’t going to sign a good player on a reasonable contract through free agency. You might find a late bloomer like the Celtics did with Crowder, but you have basically no chance of signing an established player to a contract that helps your team in the big picture.

    I’d take Towns over every big man the Knicks have had this century aside from prime Chandler (and even then, I’d think hard on it), but keep this performance in balance with the times this year that he’s looked more like a rookie than an all-star.

    That’s because of how Thibedeau has mismanaged him as a stretch forward this season parked around the perimeter while the offense is run through Wiggins. He wanted to assert himself and had a Jordan type game. Few 21 year olds I know of have ever come out and dominated an NBA defense after saying they would do so. KAT did just that. Hopefully, Thibs got the message.

    How many of them gave any sort of discount or left better contracts to play for the Knicks?

    With that list who would the Knicks even want? Seriously though, we finally have a future superstar to build around in this era of superteams. You’re telling me Towns wouldn’t want to come to his hometown to play with his good friend out of the same draft class?

    SJK,

    the Knicks will have the chance to offer a qualifying offer of 22 million for Rose in the summer, and have a cap hold of 6 million on Jennings.

    if the team renounces both, it will free up to 24 million in cap space.

    I think signing Holiday shouldn’t be a problem, he’s on a minimum wage and thus will be an unrestricted free agent if I’m not mistaken.

    With that list who would the Knicks even want?

    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan and Julius Erving were pretty good players you know…

    You’re telling me Towns wouldn’t want to come to his hometown to play with his good friend out of the same draft class?

    He may want it or not. Who really knows?.

    What I’m saying is that he is not leaving so much money to play in his hometown.

    Ras I don’t dispute your personal knowledge of the Towns’, but doesn’t this sound so much like LeBron and Melo are buddies, Lebron wore a Yankee cap, “the Toast.”

    Jrue Holiday wasn’t even good before he missed 103 games over three seasons. Why are we talking about him?

    @51 and if we were to renounce Rose but not Jennings we would have 18M in space but could go over the cap to keep Jennings?

    Anyway, someone else mentioned it , but I really like how Hornacek is managing the rotations. Kuz played well. He kept him in. Same with Plumlee. N’Dour is not permanently buried. I think other than KP and that KUZ and Willy H look like keeps Hornacek is the thing I am most happy about with this team. Jennings gets a lot of love from me in the game threads, but I don’t know that he will be here next year.

    The expectations for Rose were so low that people are pleased with his roughly .500 TS% and sub-.050 WS48. That’s still crummy production though. That’s basically the season Ray Felton had for Dallas last year. Okay for a stopgap one year PG, but terrible value at 20M+.

    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan and Julius Erving were pretty good players you know…

    That’s a different era. Superstar players never left their teams in those days.

    Ras I don’t dispute your personal knowledge of the Towns’, but doesn’t this sound so much like LeBron and Melo are buddies, Lebron wore a Yankee cap, “the Toast.”

    I think its even better. These are two guys who respect each other a lot, see one another as the elite talent in their class and keep in touch. Theirs is a professional bond centered around the game.

    Look, I wouldn’t put much stock in this if I didn’t feel there wasn’t a perfect storm of factors (family, history, fandom, friendship, etc.) including the fact that KP isn’t a selfish dude who will feel threatened by KAT coming to NYC and supplanting him. I just think that at the end of the day KAT will want to leave Minnesota and that we’re the perfect choice for him on multiple levels. Its all adding up to make the Knicks the perfect future destination for KAT. Our FO should anticipate this possibility.

    Jrue Holiday wasn’t even good before he missed 103 games over three seasons. Why are we talking about him?

    Because he spells Drew “Jrue”? Or maybe I shouldn’t jraw that conclusion.

    Idk, Jrue’s a good solid point guard who’s only 26. We could do a whole life worse than give him 4yrs/80M next summer. He’d instantly be our best defensive point guard since…..?

    Man, looking that Knicks salary list is enough to make a fan clinically depressed for awhile. All of that money for dead fucking weight like Rose, Lee and Noah. Lance Thomas is being paid more than KP (I don’t give a shit if KP has a rookie contract its still obscene). Melo’s fat butt is making 26 million to regress.

    My only hope is that we have a hope of clearing some of this room sooner rather than later.

    The only dead weight is Noah. Lee and LT are fine and Rose is expiring. Noah is an albatross.

    Idk, Jrue’s a good solid point guard who’s only 26. We could do a whole life worse than give him 4yrs/80M next summer. He’d instantly be our best defensive point guard since…..?

    Derek Harper.

    He’s missed a ton of games the last few years.

    We really should’ve signed Tim Frazier.

    2019-20 is the season. Lots of space and KAT will be a FA. Its happening. Deal with it.

    If we’re going with the win now route we should max out George Hill because he’s very good at basketball and is probably leaving his current team unlike a certain other elite west coast PG

    Rangers fans may recognize him as the anti-Glen Sather. Adept at acquiring talent in free agency and the draft, absolutely brutal on trades and contracts.

    I know you’re supposed to hate Phil or love Phil, but his actual record is a lot more mixed and can’t be simplified like this.

    We have WillyBilly for four years at an average of $1.3 mil. That’s a phenomenal value.

    We got Jennings for one year for $5 mil. That’s fantastic value.

    We got KOQ for four years at an average of $ 4 mil. That’s a very good value.

    We got Plumlee for four years for an average of $1 mil. That’s a very good value.

    We got Kuz for two years at an average of $3 mil. That is good value.

    We got Lee for four years at an average of $12 mil. That is average (or possibly slightly better than average) value.

    We got Lance for four years at an average of $7 mil. That is average (or possibly slightly below average) value.

    We also got Noah for four years at an average of $18 mil, which is too many years and probably too much money. Though he isn’t many years from being a top-5 player in the league, so it isn’t insane – though it is bad value.

    And…we got Melo, for a million years and all the monies and an NTC. Bad, bad value, but realistically, was he going to go against Guitar Jimmy on that one?

    Either way, his draft record is good, and his contracts have been mixed or slightly better than average. His trades have generally been bad, but if we get a great PG with all that cap room from Rose’s expiring, it would go a long way toward making that particular trade not as terrible as it seemed at the time. Big If.

    Phil has simultaneously exceeded and disappointed expectations depending on whether or not you’re an optimist or a pessimist

    Phil doled out terrible major contracts but has a good drafting record and made smart moves on the margins, while simultaneously we haven’t made playoffs in three years. He’s a mediocre to bad gm but neither as good or as bad as most says he is imo

    The expectations for Rose were so low that people are pleased with his roughly .500 TS% and sub-.050 WS48. That’s still crummy production though. That’s basically the season Ray Felton had for Dallas last year. Okay for a stopgap one year PG, but terrible value at 20M+.

    A few more “good” games and his WS48 will look more like half of Robin Lopez’ rather than the 1/3rd it is now!

    And you didn’t hear what Malone had to say about Jokic when people called him on burying the best rookie steal in the draft after KP.

    Yikes. “I know Jokic was amazing in a ton of minutes last year, but now all of our mediocre players are healthy so he needs to fuck off.”

    What’s the premium to stay in Minny? 10%? 15%?

    If i were KAT and I had the chance to be a star in NYC with all my friends around me I would jump at the chance. I am sure the sneaker companies would cover the difference. And you get to spend the rest of your life fulfilling a childhood dream and maybe end up as the hometown legend. Seems a lot more appealing than a dysfunctional Minnesota organization (not that we are better).

    I think my concern mostly would be that KP and KAT seem slightly duplicative. Kind of like Lebron and Melo, except that Melo also is just wildly overpaid and not good enough to be the second best player on a championship team with Lebron playing small forward. I also don’t know what the ceiling for KP/KAT is. Are either top 3 NBA players long term?

    Not that I would turn down KAT of course. We’d have a punchers chance probably. But we’d need to find a great guard too.

    They have somewhat different skill sets: KP is better from deep and in the pick and pop, while Towns is better down low both offensively and defensively. I think you can alternate C/PF duties for them based on matchup. But yeah, there is some overlap there.

    Porzingis looks more and more like a guy who would benefit from having someone like Drummond, Whiteside or DeAndre in the paint to hide his aversion to rebounding.

    Yikes. “I know Jokic was amazing in a ton of minutes last year, but now all of our mediocre players are healthy so he needs to fuck off.”

    Yeah man, reading Malone’s words made me think he’s being terribly undervalued and could be gotten for a reasonable price. I’d consider giving a first round pick for Jokic depending on whether we end up in lottery.

    They have somewhat different skill sets: KP is better from deep and in the pick and pop, while Towns is better down low both offensively and defensively. I think you can alternate C/PF duties for them based on matchup. But yeah, there is some overlap there.

    These two are as versatile a bunch of big men as you’re going to find in the league. The Spurs made Duncan/Robinson work. I know both KAT and KP would compliment each other real nice – a big man low post anchor down low and a PnR stretch forward on the perimeter. It would be murder for teams to deal with.

    Yeah, man, reading Malone’s words made me think he’s being terribly undervalued and could be gotten for a reasonable price. I’d consider giving a first round pick for Jokic depending on whether we end up in lottery.

    I’d give our first for Jokic right now honestly. He put up all NBA numbers on a rate basis in 1700+ minutes last year, and he couldn’t legally drink yet! This year it’s pretty much more of the same, he’s just obviously struggling a bit with Nurkic.

    Porzingis looks more and more like a guy who would benefit from having someone like Drummond, Whiteside or DeAndre in the paint to hide his aversion to rebounding.

    Sounds like we could use a guy like Robin Lopez, I heard he has a pretty good contract over in Chicago

    This year it’s pretty much more of the same, he’s just obviously struggling a bit with Nurkic.

    I agree. The benching messed with his game. He still has all of the polished skills you want from your big man center, especially with the offense we try to run out of the triangle set. He can pass, post up, grab rebounds. Can’t believe Denver has him playing so few minutes.

    Sounds like we could use a guy like Robin Lopez, I heard he has a pretty good contract over in Chicago

    I’d be satisfied with someone who plays like Joakim Noah, but we don’t have anyone on the roster like that.

    Player of the night last night: Marshall Plumlee

    Lineup of the night: Plumlee, KP, Kuz, Sasha, Jennings

    A few observations… probably obvious ones…

    I’m not a huge Jennings fan but he runs a much better offense than Rose… I know they have different personnel, but in theory, it should be easier for Rose with the “top” talent… and its not… Jennings has them humming, most of the time. If he ever shot better, he’d be getting the new Rose money that Rose is trying (and thinking) he could get… Rose’s glimpses are few and far between… In a way, I feel bad for the guy, but soon realize that I lack the $100+M that he’s amassed, and I stop feeling bad.

    If Noah doesn’t up his production to where I guess its “supposed” to be, Plumlee looks capable of doing what Noah currently does, faster, quicker, and stronger,… and better?… I know its only one game against a marginal team, but I loved what I saw last night… and there doesn’t seem to be a doubt that all Plumlees work their asses off every single night…

    Aside from the 2 game winners (that were fantastic), I think going to Melo late in games gives us a better chance at losing, than winning…

    Aside from the 2 game winners (that were fantastic), I think going to him late in games gives us a better chance at losing, than winning…

    Idk why they don’t run the Melo/KP pick and roll at least 15 times a game including late game situations

    Aside from the 2 game winners (that were fantastic), I think going to Melo late in games gives us a better chance at losing, than winning…

    I agree, but its not anyone is going to challenge his authority on this team while he’s in alpha mode.

    If only we had a big that’s really competent (or healthy. I don’t like current Noah but I can’t give up on him right now) on defense, our defensive scheme would be sooo much better. KP is never going to be a plus overall defender, but he can and will alter or block shots with zero effort night and night out (when he stops jumping for ball fakes).

    Idk why they don’t run the Melo/KP pick and roll at least 15 times a game including late game situations

    I really don’t understand that either. It looks like Melo can have the ball only in elbow ISO situations. Really don’t get it.

    I’d be happy with any play… any play… literally anything… even if they started running a motion offense with 15 seconds to go, id be more content…

    I don’t know. Melo + KP should give us a lot of options there. Pick and roll, pick and pop, one or both of them used as decoys for Lee/Kuz threes…

    as far as pg’s for next year.. jrue would be better but the injury history and the high usage is what turns me off about him…

    teague is the better player and probably the most attainable depending on what happens in indiana…

    Here we are 18 games into year one of Joakim Noah’s four year contract and we’re talking about whether it would just be better to give his minutes to an undrafted rookie who is not even the second best basketball player among his own siblings. You have to admit this is extremely Knicksy.

    @91

    But it’s also extremely premature. Noah can contribute for sure. He just doesn’t seem capable to be worth starting-C minutes, let’s just hope it’s a temporary health issue. I also think that Hornacek should bench him everytime he doesn’t do anything with the ball when he’s blatantly left open. Charge the lane like a bull if anything!

    KP was a plus defender last year, I think it’s well within his abilities to be a plus defender for his career.

    Have you heard anything about Diego Flaccadori, farfa? He’s a guard who has pretty solid stats and is slated to go in the late 2nd who I think is worth taking a look at

    Interesting. Just like the good old lebron as a savior thing.

    Except we are the Heat in this scenario with the additional superstar to lure him with.

    KP was a plus defender last year, I think it’s well within his abilities to be a plus defender for his career.

    I feel as if his defense has taken a major step up the past 6 or so games, with the exception of the Thunder game. He certainly held his own against KAT.

    KP was a plus defender last year, I think it’s well within his abilities to be a plus defender for his career.

    At certain defensive skills he still is a plus. On the perimeter though he seems to struggle a bit and defensive rebounding is not really his cup of tea, hence the “not an overall plus defender”.

    About Flaccadori… I honestly don’t know what to say. I don’t think he is top-40 draft material, but a low 2nd round pick could be spent on him, yeah.

    It’s apparent that everyone liked the euro lineup last nite because of the free flowing offense. Why do we constantly have to put out a lineup of overpaid Iso ballers?

    I say this every year but it’s obvious hornacek sees better results. Idk where I’m going with this… Let’s bring rose off the bench and make him adjust

    Interesting article from ESPN.com about the Clippers:

    This may be the last, best chance for the cursed L.A. stepchild to bust through the second round and chase the sort of success they’ve never experienced. More than a year ago, Doc Rivers, the team’s coach and team president, told me that teams who fall short over and over grow stale — and that the Clippers were “on the borderline” of needing a shakeup.

    Three of their core four players — Paul, Griffin, and Redick — enter free agency this summer, assuming Paul and Griffin exercise early termination options.

    Hmmm…there’s opportunity for us in the Clippers failing.

    It’s apparent that everyone liked the euro lineup last nite because of the free flowing offense. Why do we constantly have to put out a lineup of overpaid Iso ballers?

    With the Lee injury there will probably be more Jennings and Rose lineups. I like those.

    I would start Holiday and then sub KP out for Jennings. Then when you bring KP back in Jennings would still be in with some of the other Euros.

    KP is never going to be a plus overall defender

    This might be the first time I’ve ever said someone else on here is being too pessimistic, but I don’t think this is necessarily true. Being 7’3″ on its own gives him a hell of a chance if he just kinda stands near the basket and puts his arms in the air, and he’s a plus shot blocker. He has some bad habits right now (fouls are an issue) but hopefully they can be trained out. His perimeter struggles will be less of a problem if we ever get competent defense from the 1-3 spots.

    With the Lee injury there will probably be more Jennings and Rose lineups. I like those.

    Jennings/Rose lineups have a DRTG of 120.5 so far.

    If I remember correctly, RoLo started pretty horribly last year, which is just to say that it’s possible Noah can round into form this year. As for years 3-4 of that contract…yeesh

    Hmmm…there’s opportunity for us in the Clippers failing

    We play the Clippers February 8th, a few weeks before the trade deadline. Would be nice if Melo had a good game…not sure how we could make salaries work without taking on Crawford unless they want to surrender Blake or DeAndre though.

    That says more about how shitty Noah looks than anything else.

    I know this isn’t the right website to talk about “advanced” “stats” or anything, since we all know how easily stats “lie,” but last year’s .406 TS%, -2.3 OBPM, below-average WS48, and drastically limited minutes relative to previous play could have been taken as portents of shitty future play.

    I dunno, maybe it’s just me.

    2019-20 is the season. Lots of space and KAT will be a FA. Its happening. Deal with it.

    It’s 2016. There’s no collective bargaining agreement for 2019. KAT might be dead in 2019. We all might be dead in 2019. Why are we even talking about this?

    I’d settle for Melo agreeing to limit his shots to, say, 15 per game any time he is shooting less than 50% and, in return, we agree to let him play isoMelo in the last few seconds of any close games west of the Mississippi.

    If the Knicks resign 35yr old Melo to an overpay I hope I’m dead by 2019

    I seriously do wonder what kind of discount Melo gives the Knicks when he re-signs. I think he will give them some sort of discount, I just don’t know what. I thought he was going to give them a bigger discount when he re-signed the last time, so I really don’t know what he’ll do this time.

    I need to know if the memes can be dreams: if KAT is a UFA in 2019-20, will the Knicks have the cap space to sign him?

    “We all might be dead in 2019. Why are we even talking about this?”

    Well, we may not be dead, but might be underwater or living underground after our nuclear war starts with North Korea.

    @117
    Right now, the Knicks have over $66m in cap space in 2019-20.

    Of course, the numbers will change. KP will be on a new contract, etc.
    🙂

    Surely Trump can stare down North Korea!

    The man can do anything, he just strong armed Carrier into keeping 1000 jobs in the US by giving them $7 million.

    @118 You’re worried about Trump while I’m worried about Somali terrorists running over students with a car and then butchering them at a university. To each his own I guess.

    Yo reub was doing aight for a sec but for the record I still think he should be banned

    reub is worse than Italian Stallion, Ted Nelson and jon abbey combined

    I think if back in 2014, we asked every KB commenter to assume that in 2016/17, the Knicks would have one of the oldest teams in the league, and you said, “How many wins do you think they will have?” no one would have guessed 41 or whatever it is we’ll probably end up with this season. You’d hear 45 from the pessimists and 55 from the optimists. If you followed up with, “how many playoff appearances and series wins will he have?” again, I think both groups would have guessed above the reality.

    As far as things go beyond that, it depends if you’re thinking in terms of process or results. If you look at Phil’s process, it’s been mostly pretty bad though not awful. Look at all the money and assets he’s wasted on players like Calderon, Noah, Rose, and yes, Lee, who even if you think he’s been alright at his price this season will almost definitely be a net negative by year three. Even if Lance Thomas recovers, we’re paying him through age 31. PJ doesn’t seem to have any big picture vision of how to improve the team.

    However, if you look in terms of results, Kristaps is a player the Knicks couldn’t have traded their entire roster for back in 2014. That one shining moment makes it impossible for Jackson’s tenure to be worse than any previous GM since… I don’t even know.

    Yeah, there’s a breed of leftists out there who always want to ban what they disagree with. Sad.

    I didn’t say you should be imprisoned or faced with fines. I was just suggesting that you should exercise your constitutional right to be quiet forever, voluntarily.

    By the way, you missed the exclamation mark.

    Sometimes when you see some high level trolling you just have to tip your cap and appreciate excellence.

    Wow, this thread became pretty bleak since I left. Nuclear war, Somalian massacres, DRed’s death, and Melo resigning…how did we lose so much hope in so little time?

    BTW, when does the Greek Freak become a FA? He’s fantasy basketball stat line wet dream.

    He’s the new Shawn Marion. If you adjust for pace. Although the Matrix really was in a class by himself for a while. And had the best nickname.

    That would be a good listicle. Best NBA nicknames.

    Good point, but I feel like saying Shawn Marion is the prototype Giannis Antetokounmpo.

    Any list that doesn’t have the Human Victory Cigar in the top ten is no good. Too much weight given to the having been a great player. I mean,Larry Legend? That’s a terrible nickname. The black mamba? He coined it himself! It’s stupid!

    And I have never once heard D Lee referred to as Da White Howard.

    The black mamba? He coined it himself! It’s stupid!

    EXACTLY Owen. That listicle gets an automatic DQ from me just for that.

    Shaq gave himself nicknames, but they were tongue in cheek. “The Big Aristotle” is delightful.

    And I have never once heard D Lee referred to as Da White Howard.

    Another strike against that list. I remember DLee getting called WCW (White Chris Webber) once his high post passing game emerged. I’m a wrestling fan so I liked it (WCW = World Championship Wrestling), but it didn’t catch on.

    Off the top of my head, a short list of best NBA nicknames includes Dr. J, Chocolate Thunder, Pistol Pete, and Iceman.

    Too many good comments to quote, so I’m gonna throw out random thoughts

    1. RE: Kris Dunn. I like the guy. Think he has all-defense potential. Problem is, he- much like Rose, is a lead guard who’s not a great shooter but can get in the lane and needs the keys to the offense to be effective. Even still..I’d rather have him over Rose cuz he’s younger and better defensively- though that’s not a huge statement considering Rose’s deficiency on that end.

    2. RE: Noah. True..He’s overpaid, but we don’t need him to be the double double guy from his prime. We just need him to be what he’s certainty capable of being at this stage. A better passing and shooting Ben Wallace or Rodman type. There’s always room in a starting lineup for someone who’s an exceptional defender. I hope Noah gets there. His wheels appear to be worse than I thought, and if Phil recognizes early enough that it isn’t working the way he imagined and is shrewd enough to trade him this season, I’d be ok with it. KOQ/Willy/Plumlee are playing better than expected, so we’d probably be able to adjust accordingly. But..Noah is smart enough to adjust so I still have hope for him.

    3. RE: Hornacek. What a revelation he is becoming, huh? Gutsy coach..except when it comes to Melo which tells me Melo may be more of a primadonna than I imagined. I’m interested in seeing how he handles him going forward. He’s got his minutes down which is great. But I don’t know if he recognizes what Melo’s strengths are and is simply trying to let him use those strengths to the team’s advantage, or if he’s just afraid of sitting Melo when he’s having a bad game and not finding other ways to contribute.

    4. RE: KAT. Wow. He’s what KP should be if he was strong enough to play the 5 full time. Big men in this league have not gone the way of the dinosaur with KAT/KP/AD/Blake Griffin/Whiteside/Boogie/Adams and the like

    3. RE: Hornacek. What a revelation he is becoming, huh? Gutsy coach..except when it comes to Melo which tells me Melo may be more of a primadonna than I imagined. I’m interested in seeing how he handles him going forward. He’s got his minutes down which is great. But I don’t know if he recognizes what Melo’s strengths are and is simply trying to let him use those strengths to the team’s advantage, or if he’s just afraid of sitting Melo when he’s having a bad game and not finding other ways to contribute.

    You have to understand that Horny doesn’t have the seniority to stand up to a star like Melo who is pretty connected with the front office. He’s allowing Melo to dig his own hole if the team doesn’t win.

    I always liked the nicknames The Human Eraser for Marvin Webster and The Chief for Robert Parrish.

    I hate the Celtics, but they’ve had some pretty great nicknames. My favorite is Chief – who I also liked as a player. But Hondo, Larry Legend, Pistol Pete, even The Truth (worst of the worst)… all pretty great.

    I guess the Knicks had … Burger n Fries?

    Edit: except obviously one of the very best, Clyde.

    @142

    We’ve had Kenny “Sky” Walker and Mark “Action” Jackson, and Charles “Oaktree” Oakley.

    LOLZ. The latest trade rumors have the Cavs sending K-Love and a pick to the Suns, the Suns sending Tyson Chandler and Devin Booker to us, and us sending Melo to the Cavs.

    I would do that trade in NY minute, which is why I know it can never happen.

    Mark Jackson was all action running an offense. And, yes, Oaktree is obvious but very poignant when you think of how solid and grounded he was for us.

    @141 – Pete Vecsey took a great spin on Marvin Webster’s nickname when he dubbed Marvin Barnes (I think it was Barnes) the “Human Erasure.”

    Never understood why Karl Malone wasn’t nicknamed The Postman instead of The Mailman since he operated out of the low post and delivered.

    Never understood why Karl Malone wasn’t nicknamed The Postman instead of The Mailman since he operated out of the low post and delivered.

    Alliteration, probably. “Mail-man Malone.”

    I finally watched the Minnesota game, and some things struck me that haven’t been mentioned. One, Ricky Rubio didn’t look like a stellar point guard, even ignoring his lack of shooting ability. However, two, every Minnesota starter had a positive plus/minus and every bench player a negative one. This matches my eye test that their bench was terrible. Thibideau has to find a way to get some reasonable value players to back up the starters but I don’t know if that will be easy.

    And, on another topic, if the Knicks are looking for a point guard in the draft, I think they should consider Zhao Jiwei or maybe his team mate Guo Ailun from the CBA. Ailun is the starter, but Jiwei is two years younger so probably the better prospect. I think they could get them with a second round pick or maybe as a free agent.

    And, on another topic, if the Knicks are looking for a point guard in the draft, I think they should consider Zhao Jiwei or maybe his team mate Guo Ailun from the CBA. Ailun is the starter, but Jiwei is two years younger so probably the better prospect. I think they could get them with a second round pick or maybe as a free agent.

    Interesting…

    Comments are closed.