Knicks Morning News (2016.08.30)

  • [SNY Knicks] If you can make open shots, Rose is willing to pass
    (Monday, August 29, 2016 9:58:32 AM)

    It’s been fun to really break down Derrick Rose the player since the Knicks acquired the former NBA MVP in June just prior to free agency. It’s clear that he has fans marking their respective calendars in great anticipation for Oct. 25 in Cleveland.

  • [SNY Knicks] Jennings’ passion already resonating with Knicks fans
    (Monday, August 29, 2016 8:35:02 AM)

    Brandon Jennings may not be the most consistent shooter and will likely come off the bench this season, but with a high ceiling, the New York Knicks could maximize his potential at guard.

  • 54 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2016.08.30)”

    I’ve been seeing a lot of comments mentioning Lance Thomas at the 2. Why? I don’t get it. He played the 4 in college, and evolved into a hybrid 3/4 in the NBA. He can’t dribble well enough, so why would any coach consider him at the 2? Kuz maybe in spurts..but not Lance. I believe Lance checks in at around 6’8″ 235-ish, while Kuz is listed at 6’8″ 215. From what I’ve seen, with his athleticism and passable ballhandling, Kuz can probably pull off spot minutes in the backcourt.

    It might be more useful to think of him as a 2 depending on the lineups and defensive matchups. Do you think Lance could operate as a 2 in a lineup with Rose, Melo, KP and Noah? I do.

    So while I don’t think Lance is a prototype 2, I do believe that there are alignments and combinations where he can definitely play as the 2.

    2 means guard,shoot,run,athleticism and dribbling.
    Why put Kuz & LT to play the 2 ? Do you want to punish them ? Do they owe you money ?
    Are you exercising BBall-masochism or trying to reinvent the position ?
    the only reason i can think of putting Kuz or Lance play the 2 is that it’s Aug30 and it’s hot.

    Last year almost everybody played some SG !!!
    That’s why we sucked so hard after 22-22.
    SG means guarding ultrafast guys who can shoot the 3 well and their handling ranges from very good to great.
    Putting Kuz and LT guarding the Beals and the Thompsons of this league aint gonna end up well imo.


    I would say he did, but that’s also because my idea of where you play positionally is who you defend.


    You’re simply listing skills that any 5 man unit needs to have in some capacity. Lance can play the 2 as long as one of Rose/Jennings is on the floor with Melo. Having Noah on the floor helps also as he’s a very good ball handler and passer for his size. Lance can space the floor and attack closeouts effectively as well as demonstrating an ability to effectively defend 2’s last year.

    Would love to see the highlights of 2 guards that lit Lance up last year. I can’t remember that happening, but I do remember him actually doing a good job on Harden when he was matched up on him both times last year.

    2 means also guarding the fast break and creating fast break points for your team along your PG.
    As far as i remember we were at the bottom of these 2 categories or nearly at the bottom.
    Main Reason ?
    Our guards were tartaruga-slow.
    Lance & Kuz don’t convince me that they’re fast enough to play as guards.

    We don’t need to play Lance at the 2 at all times, but in certain lineups and situations he can definitely do a job for the team there. If you’re up 10 in the 4th quarter, the priority isn’t creating fast break opportunities.

    One more reason i can think of not wanting Lance and Kuz at the 2 is their height.
    The best SG range between 1.93-2.01.
    Maybe it has to do with their center of gravity.
    Imo speed,shoot and handling is FAR more important in the SG position than height and power.

    Who is the backup 2 then? We can only play who we have, unless ron baker or holiday steps up that leaves sasha….. It will be interesting to see what our closing lineup is, i think it should be rose, lee, LT, melo and porzingis but we paid a lot of money for noah so most likely it will be our starters closing games

    ok man.i see what you’re saying.
    But i’d prefer to give minutes to Baker.Holiday at the 2 that wearing down LT,Kuz.
    I’m not Hornacek tho…

    But i’d prefer to give minutes to Baker.Holiday at the 2 than wearing down LT,Kuz.

    damn heat !

    The only memory I have of Lance playing the 2 is him playing good D on James Harden. Like Lavor said, if you can defend the position then you can play the position.

    SG is the position the short guy who isn’t as good as the point guard plays, generally.

    We had one guard good at creating fast break opportunities but we let him go. Rose and Jennings are both pretty fast, and Noah is a great passer, so hopefully we can do a bit better at creating breaks this year.

    @Knew Your Nicks – You are correct. Both Lance and Kuz are forwards. But more important, they are wings. Position in the modern NBA is fluid. Melo plays the same positions as them but plays the game very differently.

    Lance can’t guard Harden. That game when we did that and Harden went 10-28 was bc they kept running him in the PNR and we switched every single one and Harden kept missing uncontested pullups against Seraphin, Zinger, etc. I remember thinking how stupid it was of them to run these PNRs with Capela and Jones (I don’t think Howard played) when we had Thomas on him; basically turned it from a ridiculous one on one situation into a merely pretty good matchup zone. And Harden just kept missing open shots (or he would come out in transition and Lance would be too slow to reach him and he’d miss an uncontested pullup). Still it wasn’t a disaster for them because we would fall apart after one switch and Lance was -13 in that game, team low.

    Lance is surprisingly decent at staying in front of guards given his extreme slow footedness and lack of makeup explosiveness when beaten. But that is really relatively speaking; the idea that he’s one of these Bruce Bowen type guys that can be really effective against good guards — I don’t think so.

    You’re somehow right but if Melo plays as a wing and KP plays as a wing and sg is also a wing position then Kp can play as a sg.
    Positions may are fluid but matchups are not.
    Can you imagine a wing player like Melo or KP guarding a wing like Harden,McCollum or JButtler.
    Not to mention other more speedy sg…
    Takes 2 to mismatchtango


    First game against Houston, Lance didn’t just switch on PNRs and concede open jumpers to him. He actually forced Harden into a few turnovers and didn’t allow him to get clean shots off. The second time around they often ran screens with the PG to get Harden switched onto Calderon. Either way switching isn’t often a decision made by one player as much as it is the scheme.

    Either way Lance not locking down Harden isn’t evidence of him being completely incapable of defending 2s. It’s the weakest position in the league and after Harden and Klay there aren’t a lot of guys I’d be extremely concerned about him defending that can crush him with their speed off the dribble. I’m not even suggesting he play their full time, just that he can be an option in their in spot minutes and in certain lineups and situations.

    Usually the 2s other role is as a secondary ball handler. That would be something Melo can handle. I don’t see Lance as being able to handle that aspect of the position. As a 2, 3 or 4 I would think Lance would be doing the same thing on offense, waiting for corner threes more often than not.

    It might be more useful to think of him as a 2 depending on the lineups and defensive matchups. Do you think Lance could operate as a 2 in a lineup with Rose, Melo, KP and Noah? I do.


    Usually the 2s other role is as a secondary ball handler. That would be something Melo can handle. I don’t see Lance as being able to handle that aspect of the position. As a 2, 3 or 4 I would think Lance would be doing the same thing on offense, waiting for corner threes more often than not.

    Lavor and Nick, I get your point. In a lineup like that, Lance wouldn’t do much but defend and shoot open 3’s. So it works- until the offense breaks down and the smart defenses make Melo & Rose work too hard just to get the ball. Also, it doesn’t hurt that he can very capably guard the 2-4. My biggest issue with the idea of Lance playing any minutes at the 2 is he would have to guard- and be guarded by- players who have a significant athletic advantage. As much as we need Lance to stay on the floor, I’d want to minimize the time he spends guarding players like that. OTOH, Kuz is more athletic, has more handle and a more..agreeable body type to chase those players around. Either way, I would love to see Kuz and Lance on the floor together. I think Lance/Kuz/Holliday would be a nice lineup as far as floor spacing without compromising defense is concerned. I can’t wait

    If Lance learns not to go for pump fakes then he can definitely play the back up 2. He did an excellent job against Washington to close out the game.
    I think Lance size helps him guard Derozen, Fournier, Middleton, Winslow/Richardson, Batum, wade, and Beal.

    I think Lance size helps him guard Derozen, Fournier, Middleton, Winslow/Richardson, Batum, wade, and Beal.

    Out of all the guys you mentioned, there isn’t one that doesn’t have an advantage over Lance athletically. Regardless, I think he would be effective- but coming off of a knee injury I’m not sure I would want to subject him to that given he’s not the best athlete. Now, when he proves to be Battier-Lite, then I won’t mind as he will be using his guile and savvy out there more than athleticism. I just feel like he’s too important a piece on that second unit to make him guard 2’s consistently.

    If you read the deposition, it turns out he had asked about group sex multiple times before and had been rebuffed each time. His story is she finally fully consented on this particular night…the one in which she was so drunk she grabbed a piece of burning charcoal. Draw your own conclusions, I’ve drawn mine. I wish this shit stain was nowhere near the Knicks.

    Where did you read the burning charcoal part? I cannot seem to find that anywhere.

    I don’t pass judgment on anyone who can root for this guy. Like I’ve said, sports ethics are all kinds of tricky. Just not sure I’ll be able to.

    Oof. That definitely does not look good. I realize issues of consent can be tricky, but if you’re outside a women’s house at 2am calling and texting continuously for an hour and don’t get a response, I think anybody with even a halfway reasonable sense of boundaries would go home. I’m sure there’s plenty more sordid details to be revealed in the next few months (on both sides potentially), but I agree this makes me feel more than a little queasy.

    Can i rape too and just pay a few bucks afterwords ?
    I’m not rich.
    Is it common in rape cases ?

    That’s terrible.

    The young lady filed civil charges not criminal. Im sure the statute of limitations in California regarding sexual assault are longer than 2 years.

    In a criminal case you need to meet the “guilty beyond a reasonable doubt” standard. So the prosecutor here probably felt like he couldn’t meet that standard. In a civil case you only have to meet the less stringent “preponderance of the evidence” standard. OJ Simpson is an example of someone who won his criminal case but lost his civil case.

    Imagine now that you have a sister or a daughter and she’s been raped by 3 guys.
    How much money would make you feel calm again ?

    Imagine now that you have a sister or a daughter and she’s been raped by 3 guys.
    How much money would make you feel calm again ?

    Does she have to be related to you to feel that way?

    I wonder why she picked the civil route

    Well, while her identity is withheld at the moment (and I hope to god it stays that way), I have my doubts that she’s also the district attorney


    Can you please find the link to where it says she grabbed a burning piece of charcoal? I think that’s really important to the case and would prove Rose guilty automatically. I haven’t seen that anywhere.

    But yes. All evidence available to the public (and that’s a really important detail) is pointing to Rose’s being guilty. As a fan but more importantly as a human, I’m going to pull away from this topic until the dust settles.

    @37 I don’t understand your point. I’m sure the statute of limitations is more than 2 years

    It’s not up to the victim whether or not criminal charges are pressed

    As a civilian you can’t force the DA to file criminal charges against someone. If they decide not to file you’re (generally) shit out of luck.

    So my first comment says it’s waiting moderation, but the second one (about moderation) got posted immediately. What gives?

    The plaintiff can’t bring a criminal case, the government has to do that. I would suspect that the district attorney declined. I am sure the woman would want a criminal case brought. It would make her civil case much stronger and, if Rose was convicted, I think that would win the civil case for her. But if some woman was very drunk it’s hard to prove lack of consent without some physical evidence or witness testimony and that doesn’t seem to be something that exists. The jury would probably conclude there was reasonable doubt she didn’t just get drunk and say yes to something she refused when sober. That doesn’t mean Rose behaved admirably. I think there is a good chance he loses or settles the civil case. If the jury sees evidence he behaved very badly, even if it’s not evidence of actual rape, they could award damages anyway.

    I wouldn’t stress it, NJ. Happens from time to time when sports and politics intertwine

    OK I won’t. My comment wasn’t anything special or inflammatory, it just might have the number of words I used.

    Bast case scenario: Rose plays fantastic for 3/4 of the season, the Knicks are 45-15, then he blows out his knee for good, and in the offseason we sign CP3 who saw what the Knicks could be with a real PG.

    Best case because I don’t want him on the team.

    Best case 2: Rose plays like he’s played the last 2 years, Jennings displaces him by playing well, we sign Jennings to a team-friendly deal in the offseason.

    I didn’t see any scenario where I would have wanted to keep Rose anyway, because the injury risk is too high, but the available information about this case … man.
    And we don’t sign Rose.

    Tiger Woods. Ben Roethlisberger. Kobe Bryant. Mike Tyson. Derrick Rose. Interesting that quite a few top-level athletes turn out to be unsavory characters, despite their wealth and fame. Is it the money? The personality it takes to be one of the best? Or do they just reflect the rest of society in a more public light?

    I think the last one. Rape happens a lot, but it’s very underreported and very few cases actually go to trial and whatnot. It just seems as if athletes commit this crime more because the cases tend to be high profile and more prominent in the media, but really they’re just representative of the general population.

    It could be the case that since athletes come from (at least in football and basketball) more limited circumstances, they may be more predisposed to crime and whatnot, given their background. I don’t think it’s worth going down that road–it’s pretty classist and often contains a lot of polite racism. Rape happens with surprising frequency at every socioeconomic stratum.

    She did not choose “civil”. It has been widely reported that she made a contemporaneous complaint to the police. After an investigation, the case was declined for prosecution.

    As a former federal prosecutor who handled sex crimes, I know that there are a myriad of reasons that a case might be declined, which include (but are not limited to) (a) belief in the accused’s innocence, (b) distrust of the complaining witness, (c) credibility problems with the complaining witness, even though the police/prosecutors believe her, and (d) concern that the accused would not be convicted, even in the face of an overwhelming case. I have no idea which (if any) of these applies in this case.


    Rape happens plenty at preppy white boy frat parties so I agree rape happens a lot regardless of socioeconomic status. It’s quite alarming how frequently it occurs and as you said in many cases it goes unreported for various reasons.

    The small football town rape cases are pretty sickening. Almost all the ones I’ve read ended up with the accuser being ostracized and the town siding with the athletes.

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