Knicks Morning News (2016.08.29)

  • [SNY Knicks] New Knicks getting head start on team chemistry
    (Sunday, August 28, 2016 7:39:07 PM)

    Several New York Knicks have been working out together in the offseason to build a rapport before the regular season begins.

  • 48 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2016.08.29)”

    Are we talking, like, historically Westbrook? Or 2015-16’s triple-double machine Westbrook? Dude took a huge leap last year. If Curry hadn’t been in the league, he’d be a legit MVP choice.

    Good point, Jowles. I should have clarified, as I was thinking in terms of coming down the court with a head of steam and getting in the lane at will. So I suppose in my comment it wouldn’t matter which Westbrook. But for clarity, it’s probably better to use historical Westbrook. Consistent triple doubles make you an entirely different animal. MVP Rose was nowhere near as dangerous as 15-16 Westbroook because that guy put fear in you in all facets of the game.

    ::checks in, dog days of summer:: Just read an article sure to delight and incense every poster. It lists the top 5 overrated NBA players. #5=Rondo #4=Parsons …So far no real problem nods its approval:: Fasten your seat belts. #2= MELO. Wipe that smile off your face Jowles because Melo is sandwiched between Jordan at #3 and Harden at #1. That’s not Jordan Clarkson or Jordan Farmar – that ‘s Deandre Jordan!! ::jowles puts smelling salt to nose:: Who are your 3 most overrated players? Here is the the article. ::checks out for a couple more months::

    3 Most Overrated:

    Optimists: No NYK player should be on such a list.

    Pessimists: 3=Noah, 2=Melo, 1=Rose

    How can Melo be overrated when he’s literally had thousands of articles written about how overrated he is? At this point Melo is underrated because he’s constantly called overrated.

    @4 I have been saying this for 3 years. It’s cliche and lazy now to say that Melo is overrated.

    haha remember when Darko was a Knick

    It’s cliche and lazy now to say that Melo is overrated.

    Do you know how much energy I’ve spent arguing against untenable, yet persistent “Carmelo is a top-5 player” perspectives like yours? Lazy is hardly the thing I’d call it.

    I don’t think people have felt Melo was a top 10 player in the league for maybe 3 years now.

    I’m glad my efforts have not been in vain, then.

    Here’s the thing though. If some people think Melo is a top 5 player and other’s think he’s top 20, then that averages out. Its one thing to say “some fans think too highly of Carmelo” or “some think he’s not as good as he is.” But to say he’s “overrated” is a really vague and lazy thing for people to say.

    No one has really said he’s top 5 since probably the 54 win season. Most people would put him in the top 10 to top 20. I don’t really see how that’s “overrated” when you have so many people saying he sucks and is overrated. If you take the average of people who over rate him and people who underrate him, you get where he actually probably is.

    Melo is not overrated in this site as used to be.

    However, he is an all-star starter, olympic team starter and, until last season, the 3rd highest salary in the league.

    He is overrated.

    Serious question, er:

    Did you have this much affection for Carmelo before he wore blue and orange?


    Is that a top 20 player?

    Melo’s good, but he’s probably still a bit overrated. Is he one of the 5 most overrated? Probably not.

    I think he might be overrated by the average fan but underrated by the talking heads.

    Doesn’t play defense, doesn’t pass, ball stopper and unable to play with others. You still see these arguments about him. His play the last few seasons have proven that these arguments are worn out.

    Melo is Dominique Wilkins, except not quite as good, and not quite as durable. ‘Nique had a long decline phase to his career and played until age 39 so that brings his career numbers down a bit, but he is very similar to Melo in just about every way. Lots of pointz, not really a difference maker on defense, similar WS48 and TS% numbers. And he’s similar to ‘Nique in that he’s a “star” in terms of All-Star appearances, fame and big contracts, but is a clear notch below the true stars of the game in terms of actual production.

    His play the last few seasons have proven that these arguments are worn out.

    What about the Knicks’ .349 win percentage over the last few seasons? How does that affect his perception?

    What about the Knicks’ .349 win percentage over the last few seasons? How does that affect his perception?

    in response to this

    Doesn’t play defense, doesn’t pass, ball stopper and unable to play with others. You still see these arguments about him. His play the last few seasons have proven that these arguments are worn out.

    What is the connection between these things? He’s not arguing that Melo is one of the elite players in the league, just that many of the generic criticisms about his style of play aren’t accurate.

    Whats our win percentage when he plays? Genuinely curious.

    Jowles, assuming you actually watch the games(!) you should at least be able to admit he’s put more effort on defense and has been a more willing passer.

    @28 – THANK YOU!!!!!
    This thread, like so many others this summer, is just blah-blah-blah crap-olla.

    Yes. I like that Lance is working on the 3 ball. I’m happier about what he said: “I’m watching a lot of film this summer because I could have been better last season.” That’s truth. But what Thomas needs to do is to take those shots. I know that he can knock down those 3’s. He shot over 40% from beyond the arc but he only launched 109 shots from there. Compare that to Steph Curry’s 886. Because he took so few shots, he didn’t get into the leader boards on basketball-reference, but had he done so, his 40.5% would’ve been in the top-20. What he seems to need is confidence.

    Needs the confidence to stroke em, and hopefully he’ll show up in camp in the best shape of his life.

    He was a pleasant surprise. If he could give us mins shooting threes at the 2, he could be a nice piece.

    1) Rose/ Jennings
    2) Lee/Thomas
    5) Jo/Porzinis/Oquinn

    Last three seasons:

    2013-14: 35-42
    2014-15: 10-30
    2015-16: 32-40

    So our record without him is

    2013/14: 2-3
    2014/15: 7-35
    2015/16: 0-10

    Total W/L without him over the last 3 years is 9-48, while our record with him is 77-112.

    Win percentage without him is 15.8%, while our win percentage with him is 40.7%.

    @31 – I think WillyH and Kuz could be getting some significant time and be part of a 10-man rotation and O’Quinn needs to prove he belongs in the mix. But you’re right, the flexibility that Thomas offers as a 3-and-D swingman is cool. I just hope that he gains enough confidence to make the 3-pt shot a dangerous weapon.

    1) Rose/ Jennings
    2) Lee/Thomas
    5) Jo/Hernangomez

    Team is bad with Melo, team is bad without Melo.

    Our faux superstar is a max-salary, non-tradeable part of the problem.

    Lol hot take. Although u might wanna google what max salaries are for a player with as much service as Melo.

    @33 — if you really want to piss people off, go back to the 54 win season and post their record with and without Melo and then with and without Chandler. They HATE those numbers…


    I actually didn’t even want to point any of that out, but I figured since Jowles posted the numbers with Melo, it’d make sense to post the numbers without him also. As bad as we’ve been the last 3 years I didn’t realize how much worse we’ve been when Melo’s out.

    Then what’s the point in talking about him, Theo?

    Go back to 2012-13, and the Knicks record with Melo is a respectable 124-132 with and 16-56 without him.

    A 48.4 winning percentage with him and a 22 winning percentage without, a whopping 26 percent point difference.

    That’s the difference between a 41 and 58 win team.

    Since 2012, the 76ers have the lowest winning percentage in the NBA at 24.7, which is higher than what the Knicks have with Melo, and that includes two years with the incomparable Tyson Chandler.

    In other words, the Knicks have fielded the worst team in the NBA sans Melo, including the 76ers, who intentionally avoid big contracts and barely get to the salary cap floor an a yearly basis.

    Melo will die with the burden of putting the Knicks in an asset-depleted situation, but the Knicks record with Melo largely speaks to the horrible teams that have been assembled around him.

    He’s not in the top 5-10 echelon of players — certainly not in this era– but his teams have seemingly been just as reliant on him as those other squads have been on their NBA gods.

    The Knicks having bad teams around Melo the last two years doesn’t make Melo much better or worse. The Knicks tending to have shitty backups for Melo doesn’t make Melo better or worse.

    @39 That’s a fair assessment of Melo. I’m not a Melo hater or fan (never felt he was close to superstar status) and will be the first one to say he has given the Knicks exactly what they should have expected from him. Perhaps even a bit more. He is a great player, just not one you build around. And yes, he is a player far more valuable and useful than Chandler could ever be.

    The whole Melo controversy centers around how he forced his way to NY (with Dolan’s self-destructive help) plus the totally unrealistic expectations the move generated. It guaranteed failure, but that’s history by now.

    Derrick Williams was a pretty good back-up. Ronnie Brewer was better than Melo in 12-13.

    I forgot you lived in a world where players can only be compared by position, not something as nebulous or perhaps made up as “role”.

    So, it wasn’t that the Knicks relied on Melo, it’s that they had really bad back-ups, back-ups so bad, they made the team 26 winning percentage points worse all by themselves.

    That’s pretty incredible.

    Also, your boy Jowles referenced record. Try to lecture him.

    A team bad at evaluating player performance gets worse when their overpaid, overrated, but nonetheless 1st-2nd best player (depending on who you talk to) gets injured. Is this a surprise? This isn’t a particularly unique situation Melo or the Knicks is faced with. I’m not trying to defend Jowles or attack someone else, just here to say that making any kind of argument on the basis of W-L record when one player is in or out is rhetorical theater at best–there’s too much noise for it to mean anything.

    For the more interesting discussion: I think O’Q should be playing more minutes next year if only because Seraphin won’t be here. He’s likely to be better than Willy H, who I’m pretty bullish on. Regardless of how the coaches like him in practice or wherever, there’s league average productivity at minimum there even if he does boneheaded things every couple of possessions. Not an aesthetically pleasing player, but a nice one nonetheless.

    Again, the discussion was about “ratedness” and record was referenced by Jowles.

    Overrated by whom?

    What’s overrated is people saying he’s overrated.

    Who rates him terribly high? No one on this board.

    Melo *was* overrated by the Knicks front office when the team paid several times what he was worth (his true worth was waiting for him to become a free agent), by a lot of fans who tought he was a superstar and quite a few people on this blog who felt the Knicks would go far with him as the leader and frequently compared him to true superstars like Kevin Durant, for example. He is not overrated much nowadays, as the expectations have been lowered significantly based on watching him not meet those (unrealistic) expectations.

    Melo is not responsible for some people not being able to objectively evaluate players, contracts and team situations.

    As bad as we’ve been the last 3 years I didn’t realize how much worse we’ve been when Melo’s out.

    Who’d have thought that if you trade, like, 4 players and 3 draft picks for one overrated volume scorer (and one underrated PG whom you then go and amnesty and a couple of non-factors), then give him a mega-max contract, your team will be shit and the player who plays when he’s out (necessarily a low-salary player, given how much of your cap you use on the mega-max) will be shit also. It’s almost like opportunity cost is a thing when you have a luxury tax so punitive that even the billionaire nerds who own that 73-and-overrated team in the Bay Area are probably going to break up their once-in-a-generation superteam.

    So much sense!

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