Knicks Draft Frank Ntilikina #8, Damyean Dotson #44, and Ognjen Jaramaz #58

The New York Knicks walked into the draft with the league abuzz about the prospect of the franchise doing something drastic and frankly devastating stupid. However the evening was a humdrum affair for New Yorkers, as the team selected two guards, and more importantly didn’t trade away their prize jewel. Let’s overlook the Porzingis-Jackson kerfuffle for now and concentrate on the two players the Knicks acquired.

Although yours truly had hopes for Dennis Smith Jr., and the NC State guard was available at #8, Ntilikina offers a similar ray of hope for the team. I preferred Smith because he was more of a known quantity. College stats offer up a better translation to the pros, and Junior had the right numbers in the right places to indicate probable success in the NBA. European stats are harder to transcribe, as witnessed by ESPN giving Frank both the highest probability to become an All Star and the highest probability for failure as well.

And while I would have gone with the surer choice, the Knicks went with the higher ceiling pick for the second draft in a row. In the end, New York still picked up a point guard, something that has been a need for the team for most of it’s post-Clyde history.

There’s no point in trying to figure out who Ntilikina is yet. The youngling hasn’t even turned 19! The first chance we’ll really get will be in summer league, where he’ll play against more NBA-worthy competition. Even still it could take a season or two before he really grows into his skin, both literally and figuratively. So we may have to wait until 2019 before we understand what kind of NBA player he’ll be.

New York’s second selection was guard Damyean Dotson from Houston. On first glance Dotson’s profile seems underrated for a late second rate pick. His RSB/40 (rebounds+steals+blocks per 40 minutes) is 9.3, well over what you’d want from a shooting guard. But further inspection shows that the number is nearly all rebounding (8.1 reb/40), so Dotson is mediocre in steals and lacking in blocked shots. A quick scan of Houston’s team minutes show that Dotson played more 3 than 2, which might pad his rebounding rate. Hence his athleticism is questionable.

Additionally scouting reports reveal that his offensive game is mostly from jumpshots, and not drives, another knock on his physical ability.

While a fairly versatile shot maker, Dotson doesn’t bring all that much in terms of NBA level creation ability, and tends to live off of contested looks (jumpers were 84.5% of his field goal attempts last year). Bouncy in the open floor, Dotson’s athleticism doesn’t always translate to the half court and he isn’t overly advanced on the ball, evident by his 0.46 PPP in pick and roll, 0.65 PPP in isolations and 2.0 free throw attempts per 40 minutes. Dotson will really have to be a knockdown shooter from the NBA line to have offensive value…

The good news is that Dotson has the size and three point shooting (44.1% his senior year) to be a 3-and-D player. Of course much like Ntilikina, the answer to Dotson’s future is better learned once he suits up in Orlando. Until then Knick fans will just have to hope and wonder on the prospects of their two newest players.

As for the third, Ognjen Jaramaz, New Yorkers might have to wait a little longer. Jaramaz doesn’t really stand out in any area, as the first paragraph of DraftExpress’ profile of him seems to concentrate on everything else but Ognjen.

Among the top performers from this past weekend’s adidas Eurocamp, Ogjen Jaramaz is a member of the top-heavy 1995-born generation that is automatically eligible for the 2017 NBA Draft. A staple of Beobasket-run Serbian prospect-haven Mega Leks, Jaramaz is one of the lone holdovers who has played alongside all of the club’s recent NBA Draftees; Nemanja Dangubic, Nikola Jokic, Vasilije Micic, Rade Zagorac, Timothe Luwawu, and Ivica Zubac. Averaging 12.2 points and 3.5 assists per game this season, Jaramaz had a solid season with Mega before his strong showing at the Eurocamp. Earning quite a bit of attention from NBA scouts in a down year for international prospects, Jaramaz may be the favorite to emerge from the secondary tier of automatically eligible prospects, which typically produces at least a few picks, to hear his name called late on draft night.

My guess is that the team stashes him in Europe for a year or two before calling him over. It’s possible he’ll compete in summer leagues, and perhaps he even joins Westchester as well. But I don’t see him in a NBA game any time soon.

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Mike Kurylo

Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

231 thoughts to “Knicks Draft Frank Ntilikina #8, Damyean Dotson #44, and Ognjen Jaramaz #58”

  1. From last thread:

    Flipping through the last 20 drafts, it’s actually relatively rare to miss on a top-10 point guard pick. Here’s the list of the worst PG’s selected in the top 10 (many of whom are combo guards):

    Mudiay, Exum, D’Angelo Russell, Elfrid Payton all have some time before being labeled busts; Jimmer, D.J. Augustin, Randy Foye, Ray Felton, T.J. Ford, Keyon Dooling, Jamal Crawford, Antonio Daniels, Larry Hughes

    Shaun Livingston, Jay Williams, and Derrick Rose could have been better w/o injuries.

    I don’t imagine DSJ joining that list. Frank? It’s difficult to say…

  2. Not gonna lie – I was hoping we’d end up with a Latvian on the team but I would have preferred a different one. I wanted a Phoenix deal involving #4, Chriss and some sort of trade where Spurs would have gotten Bledsoe, we would have received Lawrence and Bertans, and Phoenix would have taken Mills. We could have sweetened any deal for Spurs/Phoenix using Lee and KOQ as required.

    I think Chriss’ stats are very promising. Not many 19yo’s put up a positive VORP in rookie season playing 1700 minutes. His outside shooting rates to improve since he probably didn’t take many 3s in high school. So we’d be talking Chriss/Jackson/Anderson/Ntilikina/Bertans. What do all those guys have in common? Exactly: young, mobile, length, hit 3s and SWITCH on defense! Two way players all under 25yo. Trade Melo for Brice Johnson/Crawford.

    The above scenario is STILL POSSIBLE Phil! Make it happen. KP’s stamina is a real issue and his knees/ankles probably won’t hold up if he plays the 5.

  3. I wouldn’t be surprised if, like KP, Frank turns out to be the third best player of his draft. I also wouldn’t be surprised if he turns out to be averaging 12 minutes off the bench in his fourth year.

    But…Anyone unhappy with this draft who also laments our porous D and the front office’s lack of understanding of advanced analytics is a hypocrite. Frank is exactly what you’ve all been saying the Knicks need – high upside pick with already evident defensive ability. Youngest player in the draft on a similar timeline to KP and Willy. Contributor on playoff team whose team does significantly worse with him off the floor.

    And people are pissed we passed on the no-defense guy who couldn’t get his team to win, appeared disinterested at times, but can do massive dunks and break ankles…with a serious injury history. Haven’t we seen that somewhere before? And y’all want to do it again?

    DSJ might be an all-star in 2 years. He also might be a net negative player while doing it. And he might miss a season in a few years due to another catastrophic injury. And he might get paid at the max while losing all the physical abilities that made him look like a max player.

    In short, Frank shows we’re learning from experience. I’m happy with that.

  4. I’m fine with the Knicks drafting Frank Ntilikina at #8. I’m even more optimistic about his potential than I was earlier now that I’ve seen more of him. But I’m a little disappointed we couldn’t find a deal to get another pick somewhere in the lottery area. I’m not blaming Phil. It is what it is. The Trailblazers got a very good deal for their picks.

    However, this is not going to move the needle much.

    Frank will not be ready to give us heavy minutes as a starting PG for awhile. So we need a starting PG for next year and long term we still need 2 more all-star caliber players/scorers once Melo is out of the picture.

    I really don’t see a clear path there now (unless we get a huge upside surprise from Frank on offense over time). We don’t have enough good young assets and picks to package together to get a star (like the T-Wolves did in their theft of Butler). We probably have enough talent to win 30-40 games and our distaste for all out tanking makes it unlikely we get real stars out of the draft even though we have all our picks. That leaves free agency, but as of now I don’t think anyone is lining up to play in NY.

    It feels like we are going to be getting improvement from the young players we have, adding a piece here or there in free agency, and getting picks late or just outside the lottery going forward. That will eventually make us a playoff team, but we need another real star or two to really move the needle.

  5. Jrue Holiday would be a perfect fit for TWolves. If so, I think KOQ for Rubio might be an option since it would clear cap space and give TWolves a starter next to KAT.

  6. I’m happy with how we drafted, despite Dotson not being my preferred old SG that we draft (Thornwell or Hart.) And we still don’t have a backup SF.

    Let’s get Rubio on this team so Frank can learn from him, maybe sign Ingles or another SF, get Kennedy Meeks plus one or two other UDFAs and call it an offseason.

  7. Any chance of Wiggins/#1 pick for George? Man consider this starting lineup: Holiday/Butler/George/Kat/KOQ.

  8. I will go on the record now to say that based on what I see and know right now, I absolutely hate this pick, and that we will be ruing this day for a long time. It will be worse in a way than when we just missed Westbrook and Curry, because I think that Dennis Smith Jr. is going to be an uber-exciting perennial all star and Ntilikina is going to top out at 3 and D bench player on a mid-level deal. I wouldn’t be surprised if at least 10 players picked after him have better NBA careers than him.

    But who knows? Back in the day I thought guys like Brad Sellers, Dennis Hopson and Shawn Bradley would be great players. More recently, I thought that Harden would be a bust. Here’s to hoping I am dead wrong about Frank Knicktilikina.

    #Knicksfan4eva

  9. If Phil really wants to put pressure on Melo, he needs to trade Lee and KOQ and make this team’s average age <25. That's the proper way to put pressure on Melo, not all the trashing in the media business.

    I like the KOQ for Rubio trade but Minny has a lot of bigs already. Not sure that makes sense for them. Lee for Rubio makes more sense as they need more shooting and wing depth.

    Honestly if I'm Thibs, I send some feelers around the league to see what Wiggins might bring in trade. He's still only 22 but he's really shown very little improvement, is a minus defender in spite of all his physical gifts, and is extension eligible this year I think?. He probably still has lots of trade value.

  10. Getting Rubio now would really be a great idea. He would got nicely ahead of Ntilikina in the depth chart and would allow him to be brought up slowly as a backup combo guard, while he gets used to the NBA.

    If he eventually happens to be a better shooter than floor general he would slot nicely as the 2-guard of the future and if he’s a PG, Rubio is still expendable enough to make that happen.

    just trade Melo for anything and the off-season will already be great.

  11. Supposedly Minny wants to sign a big name FA PG, so they may want to clear most or all of Rubio’s salary.

    Another way of putting pressure on Melo if he refuses to consider a trade would be to not start him; tell him the rebuild is on and the youngsters need playing time. Make him a 6th man so that he can do what he wants to do, which is just shoot, but do so off the bench.

  12. I am very interested to see how Kennedy Meeks’ career turns out.

    I am ok with Frankie. I’d prefer a little more of a known quantity but Clarence hasn’t led us wrong so far. I am definitely excited that we drafted a guard with defense as his calling card. That’s refereshing.

    It could be worse but it could be a lot better.

  13. I like the KOQ for Rubio trade but Minny has a lot of bigs already. Not sure that makes sense for them. Lee for Rubio makes more sense as they need more shooting and wing depth.

    I think KOQ for Rubio makes sense for Thibs IF he needs to clear cap space to sign Holiday (or maybe Teague or Hill) and would no longer need Rubio. He’d only make that trade if he had an agreement from Holiday to sign for a certain contract. There could be a second piece to the trade where he’d take Lee for Bjelica/Aldrich/Hill. Or maybe it could be all done as part a single trade. Would be a good trade for us and gotta like this result if you’re Thibs:

    1: Holiday/Jones
    2: Butler/Lee
    3: Wiggins
    4/5: KAT/KOQ/Dieng

  14. I can’t see Minny trading Rubio now, but you never know I guess.

    I also have a bad feeling that DSJ will be great in a Harden kind of way (get to the line a ton, shoot and finish well, play a little D) but Frank will be good and at worst a 3 and D guy, maybe an Iggy type. But hey, he’s mega triangular, so sweet!!

  15. i don’t hate frank… and i hope he does well… but i just don’t agree with the arguments that frank is gonna become even an ok player… it’s not evident in the things he’s shown and certainly not the numbers…

    when i try to get into the head of phil and what his plan is.. i think it’s very close to what the mavs are doing.. try and be competitive… build a winning culture and make shrewd moves along the way…. i don’t actually have a big problem with that except the moves we are making are not really that good…. and the frank vs smith pick is an example of a decision that’s probably gonna wind up haunting us…

  16. Everyone said Porzingis was 3 years away from being 3 years away and yet he was able to contribute as a starter in the NBA from day one. I think Frank will be fine. These euro prospects are always way more NBA ready than we think they are. He’s a smart player and he can contribute on defense, pass well and hit open shots. I think he’s gonna be a big addition for us and yes he’ll have a TON of growing pains. But start him from day one so he can learn and we can lose and get another top pick next year.

    Hey, fans. Perspective is a funny thing. We now have 3 starters who are all under the age of 22 and are all euro, team oriented type players.

    We needed perimeter defense, shooting, playmaking and youth before last night. We got all of that last night. Phil didn’t trade Porzingis and the off season has just begun. This is a slow prospect but we’re slowly on our way.

    The real off season work begins in the next few weeks.

  17. not sure Minn can or would trade Rubio now, after dealing his backup. and, they don’t need Lee….butler is their 2

  18. Anyone know anything about this euro we drafted?

    It’s really crazy that Golden State wound up with two excellent prospects.

  19. @ 10 – Z-man. I’d love to go back and read your post Zinger comments from 2 years ago!

    Frank’s gonna be awesome. He’ starting on a pro team that is in the finals. I think those pro teams could beat most NCAA teams and he’s 18 going up against grown men. He’s also playing in a team first culture. So when he gets here he’s gonna be about the team. Playing defense, making the right play/pass. We desperately need that.

    I’m just surprised at the negative reaction by peeps. Frank seems like a KB dream type prospect. Substance over flash. Defense and IO over points. Smart playmaking over highlight plays.

  20. I agree that Frank will be ready to give us some quality minutes. I think he’s a fine pick, but it highlights just how bad our guard/wing situation is.

    I can’t stand to watch Lee or Thomas play another minute, and let’s be honest… Randle is a 3rd string pg at best.

    It would also be nice if We could put Melo’s fat ass on a pf or two, but that means minutes for Thomas or Kuz.

  21. This from ESPN’s website: “Rick Carlisle leaves no doubt Mavs wanted Dennis Smith over Frank Ntilikina, saying there was “uproarious” applause when Knicks made pick.”
    Mavs played poker, feigning intense interest in Frank, even hiring his coach, when they coveted DSJ all along. Clyde has often said that you should never tip your hand, but that is what the Knicks do all too often.

  22. not sure Minn can or would trade Rubio now, after dealing his backup. and, they don’t need Lee….butler is their 2

    Rubio has a big $ number as a backup PG, especially if as reported they are looking for a big fish FA point guard. They still have Tyus Jones on the roster, and he’s cheap and pretty good.

    Re: Lee on the Wolves – they literally have ZERO perimeter shooting as it is now outside of Towns. Butler is a bad 3 point shooter, Wiggins was a little better last year but probably just average. They also have zero bench depth. He actually would fit really well there as a 6th man or in a small-ball lineup with whoever they sign at PG, Butler, Wiggins as small-ball 4, and Towns.

  23. Substance over flash

    Frank is the opposite of substance over Flash. He’s almost all projection-super young, not very productive, tiny sample sizes

  24. This from ESPN’s website: “Rick Carlisle leaves no doubt Mavs wanted Dennis Smith over Frank Ntilikina, saying there was “uproarious” applause when Knicks made pick.”
    Mavs played poker, feigning intense interest in Frank, even hiring his coach, when they coveted DSJ all along. Clyde has often said that you should never tip your hand, but that is what the Knicks do all too often.

    zzzzzz… the Knicks have been on Frank for a full year, and well before the Mavs’ reported interest, Frank was already the guy. The Knicks choice was always Monk or Frank.

  25. @23

    he’s a KB kind of player in style but the stats don’t suggest he’ll be very good, so he’s something of a conundrum. That being said I think he’ll grow and flourish but I’m generally pretty risk-friendly so others’ mileage may vary.

  26. @4. ALL CORRECT.

    DSJ might be an all-star in 2 years. He also might be a net negative player while doing it. And he might miss a season in a few years due to another catastrophic injury. And he might get paid at the max while losing all the physical abilities that made him look like a max player.

    In short, Frank shows we’re learning from experience. I’m happy with that.

  27. <Rubio has a big $ number as a backup PG, especially if as reported they are looking for a big fish FA point guard. They still have Tyus Jones on the roster, and he’s cheap and pretty good.

    Minnesota would trade Rubio because much of their offense will be executed through the 2 and 3 positions. They therefore need a 3 and D type more than a guy who’s gonna generate a ton of dimes and needs the ball to be effective. Jrue Holiday fits that profile much more than Rubio does. His age, 3FG%, defense, ability to be play maker when required make Holiday a perfect fit for Minnesota. Beverley might also be an option.

  28. swift,
    The record will show that I was one of the few that liked KP well before the draft and was ecstatic when we drafted him.

  29. This from ESPN’s website: “Rick Carlisle leaves no doubt Mavs wanted Dennis Smith over Frank Ntilikina, saying there was “uproarious” applause when Knicks made pick.”
    Mavs played poker, feigning intense interest in Frank, even hiring his coach, when they coveted DSJ all along. Clyde has often said that you should never tip your hand, but that is what the Knicks do all too often.

    This is quite literally the most bogus spin the Mavs are putting out ever and also completely illogical since the Knicks stayed put and picked Frank who they’ve been scouting for an extremely long time. Also given their draft record, if they really did want DSJ all along, which I don’t believe even for 1 minute, then there’s a good chance he ends up being a total bust who they give away iin a year or two.

    I like Frank and think he’s going to be a solid pro. His offense is raw in terms of PG play and shot creation, but his handle is much improved and the defense will ensure he sees real minutes off the bat no matter what. I don’t think he’s nearly the project he’s being made out to be. Like most rookies he’ll have many things to work on and improve.

  30. The Knicks are going to lose a lot of games next year. Frank Ntilikina will be much better than people project him to be in his first year, but he won’t be an impact player. The triangle offense makes it so that Ron Baker level scrubs can play in the triangle as long as they don’t Mudiay it up with the turnovers. One thing about Frank is that he won’t be bullied or intimidated by NBA athletes considering that he’s been playing against grown men ever since he was 16. Barring a Rose re-signing or a Beverley/Rubio trade, Ntilikina plays 25 minutes a game and starts at least 40 games for us. But we’re going to lose many games, and it will all be worth it when Luka Doncic and Frank Ntilikina are embarrassing the NBA in a 2021.

  31. I liked Monk, Smith, Frank… in that order.

    Not mad, though. Happy to talk myself into Frank’s upside. I just am worried that he needs nurturing and our environment isn’t great for his development. Yesterday, of course, was a perfect example of that.

  32. @37 – that’s a nice article – thanks for linking. Definitely makes one feel good about him. Would be interesting to compare Frank’s advanced stats in that league at this age to others in that league that came over and made a successful transition to the NBA — namely Batum, Parker, Fournier as backcourt guys.

  33. We’re continuing on a 2 track system I believe where we’re adding more great young talent while not forsaking the present. That’s what I like. If we add Teodosic and PJ Tucker it’ll be 55 wins for sure.

  34. not sure Minn can or would trade Rubio now, after dealing his backup. and, they don’t need Lee….butler is their 2

    They clearly don’t need Lee anymore. On the flip side you can argue that Rubio is too expensive to be a backup.

  35. Would be interesting to compare Frank’s advanced stats in that league at this age to others in that league that came over and made a successful transition to the NBA — namely Batum, Parker, Fournier as backcourt guys.

    I know that his pedigree is as good as Batum’s or Parker. They were the last two Frenchies to win the U18 championship and MVP.

  36. I watched Dotson play at the combine and thought he was the best player on the court. Lights out shooter with nice size and very quick.He always seemed to be in the right places.

    Don’t sleep on Jaramaz. He looks like lightning in a bottle.

  37. I couldn’t care less what Cuban or anyone in his organization says or thinks. They have been a bumbling disaster of mistakes every single year since they won the championship on Dirk’s back. They are borderline incompetent on a scale worse than the Knicks. The only difference is that they have a GREAT coach.

  38. I also think Frank’s lower level TS% in that article should be taken with the fact that his regular season eFG% was around .560, which is excellent. His low FT% rate and percentage takes away from that, and I’m certain that won’t be a problem for Frank in the NBA.

  39. Not mad, though. Happy to talk myself into Frank’s upside. I just am worried that he needs nurturing and our environment isn’t great for his development. Yesterday, of course, was a perfect example of that.

    You know – until the last few months, I would’ve said that we’ve done a good job developing players. Lance Thomas gets mixed reviews here but there’s no doubt he’s a better player here than he was in OKC. Hernangomez is much better than we thought he would be, Justin Holiday flashed at times, etc.

    I’m not sure how much of the player development could be attributed to Longstaff, but hopefully we can keep it up.

  40. I love the fact that Phil and Company are true to themselves and to their system. They drafted who they wanted to based on their criteria and not on the feelings of others who know so much less than they do. To thine own self be true. Bravo!

  41. They clearly don’t need Lee anymore and since they traded Dunn, they need a backup PG even if they sign a higher quality free agent PG. On the flip side you can argue that Rubio is too expensive to be a backup.

    Minnesota is clearly going for it, and given that and Thibs’ history of leaning on veterans, I think Lee would be perfect for them. And assuming they are indeed going for a big name FA PG who will likely cost north of $25MM/year, having $39MM/year (plus Tyus Jones) wrapped up in PGs seems a suboptimal use of resources, especially when they need shooting so badly.

  42. Phil stole Willy late in the second round and now he got us white lightning Jaramaz.

  43. Phil stole Willy late in the second round and now he got us white lightning Jaramaz.

    That kid looks REALLY good to me in the highlights I have seen. He supposedly comes from a very good program that has produced other NBA caliber players. I think there’s a pretty good shot he makes the team. We’ll see more in summer league I guess.

  44. Seriously guys, why are you idiots vouching a trade for Rubio? We don’t need Rubio. We need to fucking tank and get another high lottery pick. Rubio does not help us. All this talk about trading and signing mediocre vets is asinine. We’re already accustomed to losing, let’s at least brace ourselves for a horrible season and shoot for a high draft pick. And then shoot for another high draft pick in 2019 too. Phil needs to go in full rebuild mold. Find young guys on short-term non guaranteed contracts, develop them and tank the fuck out of the next two seasons.

  45. https://youtu.be/jF1UiQnOadI

    Here’s some game film from Frank against Juventus. In this game, he was inconsistent offensively, but on defense? He is a gamewrecker. He consistently picks guys up full court and forces errors out of their ball carriers. When this guy is on his 2nd contract he will without a doubt be on the All-NBA defensive first team. Frank and KP defensively will bring so much energy to the garden. All they’re going to need in order to be high powered offensive weapons is chemistry in our motion offense and point wing/forward guy like Doncic, and we should be bad enough this year that Doncic becomes a real possibility.

  46. All this talk about trading and signing mediocre vets is asinine

    Are you referring to Rubio?

  47. All this talk about trading and signing mediocre vets is asinine.

    Pssst, Rubio is younger than KOQ (and Lee)

  48. Rubio is a good player who’s only 26 years old and is on a reasonable contract. He’s a passing savant and an excellent defender. Why wouldn’t you want him? Just to tank?

    Ideally speaking, we will be trying to be good in 2 years – it’s true that Rubio’s contract will be expiring then, but he’ll only be 28 years old and in his prime. His timeline is compatible with KP/Frank/Willy etc. unlike Melo, Lee, and Noah.

    btw – in what seems like a yearly ritual for Knicks fans now, I took a look at some of the press around the Dotson Oregon incident, and it sounds remarkably similar to the Derrick Rose case, both in details of the actual incident and the demeanor of the victim. SMH.

    http://www.dailyemerald.com/2014/06/25/attorneys-for-dotson-artis-and-austin-release-joint-statement-critical-of-uos-actions-in-rape-case/

  49. The Dotson pick seems off brand. That was not a good police report.

    I just read a couple of articles. It sounds a little like the Rose case where there were conflicting statements by the woman and not enough evidence to prosecute, which of course does not mean something really bad didn’t happen.

    I’m not sure why the Knicks would take this kid. It’s not like he’s some special talent that may have been falsely accused and they want a chance to get to know him better. There was enough there for him to get tossed from his original school and I don’t see any special talent.

  50. @67

    I think it’s because Phil’s “culture change” line is bullshit and what he’s really interested in is finding players who will stomach the triangle. That’s his “culture change”, for better and for worse

  51. Off-brand? No way. Acquiring guards with rape allegations in their backgrounds is a big part of what we do here. We’re not going to kick acquiring guards with rape allegations in their backgrounds to the curb.

    Phil said he would change the culture here, and he did. He somehow made it even more toxic. That’s a change!

  52. just trade Melo for anything and the off-season will already be great.

    Lol this take makes me laugh every day. Never mind we have a maniac running the franchise who wants to bring drose in to mentor Frank

  53. Nigel Hayes could be a good signing. He loves New York.
    “I don’t really like New York. It’s too big, it’s dirty, trash everywhere, too many people. It’s cold right now.”
    Lol.

  54. While above I applaud the Frank pick simply for not being the same kind of mistake (if it’s a mistake, it’s a different kind of mistake), I do believe he’ll succeed. My own feeling is that his floor is Bruce Bowen, which would be a good complementary piece. I think he’ll be better, but I think his floor is higher than people believe and his ceiling is not as high. But high enough to be a really solid piece of a good team.

    I also predict that Monk is a future 6th man of the year (Lou Williams) and DSJ will be amazing on offense but give us just as much on D (DRose) until he blows out a knee and goes through years of mediocre comebacks.

  55. I also predict that Monk is a future 6th man of the year (Lou Williams)

    Monk is far more athletic then Lou has ever been. That’s why he’s a starter

  56. Lol this take makes me laugh every day. Never mind we have a maniac running the franchise who wants to bring drose in to mentor Frank

    er, I know you love Melo, but how can you not feel that – completely separate from his play – he’s been bad for this team? His ego simply does not allow him to be any less than the Man – except he lacks the will to power (or off-the-charts talent) that Lebron has, which leaves us with an OK player on a huge contract who destroys anyone who doesn’t bow to him. D’Antoni was a dick who handled the situation poorly, but he was also a good coach who was right, and Melo ran him out of town. Lin was lucky more than good, but he was damn sure better than any other PG option we had, and Melo ran him out of town. In his good years, he tries hard, plays a well-rounded game with good rebounding and decent assists and passable D. In bad years, he takes lots of shots, plays no D, and doesn’t contribute as much in other areas. Will the team be worse without him? Yes. Is it best that he go? Yes. Best case, his timeline doesn’t jibe with where we’re at. Worst case, he continues to destroy the team from the inside (hello, KP) and poisons the well right when we’re finally looking to start something new.

    He has to go.

  57. Agree with many previous posts, I would have preferred the safer pick of DSJ. He looks very athletic with an NBA ready offensive game. We have to trust the Knicks scouting and hope like he’ll Frank turns out as good as advertised. Supposedly he plays good D which is desperately needed and he certainly has good size and a good attitude, time will tell.

    That Chicago trade is looking more and more awful as it marinates with time. WTF are they thinking? Boston would have offered a far better haul I’m sure for a player as good as Butler ( who I believe is better than Paul George). Minnesota could be real good next year if Thibs doesn’t screw it up.

  58. Monk is far more athletic then Lou has ever been. That’s why he’s a starter

    I’ll concede you could be right on this. I would have been OK with Monk. But that’s partially because I don’t think shooting is as easy to learn as people think it is. And Monk can definitely shoot. His floor is probably 6th man – but I’m just not as optimistic about his ceiling as you are.

  59. Minnesota could be real good next year if Thibs doesn’t screw it up.

    They really made out like bandits. They could be great with just one more great move (trade Wiggins for PG + a number 1?). But of course Thibs will play everyone into the ground, so they’ll have a few good years before losing everyone to injury.

  60. Ntilikina will actually fight through screens. That’s maybe the most impressive thing in his highlight videos, his ability to slither under screens and recover quickly when somebody screens him successfully. Last year’s Knick guards were absolutely pathetic in this regard. Set a screen against us and you were pretty much guaranteed a good look.

  61. Rama,

    I wanted melo to leave the Knicks since 2012.I don’t care about that, my point is that him leaving doesn’t make it a good off season. The Knicks have at max 2 more years to deal with him or can just buy him out. I’m more concerned with Phil’s obsession with the triangle and making decisions based on that. And the fact that he thinks it’s a good idea to resign derrick rose. I’m not gonna argue what I argued yesterday that I think it’s ridiculous that Melo is blamed for everything from Lin to KP missing exit meetings ad acting petulantly.

    I’ve stated my position on that.

  62. If Phil’s Triangle obsession leads him to drafting players of the caliber of KP and Willy I don’t particularly care. Just stay away from anymore long term free agent contracts please.

  63. DSJ may end up being more talented than Ntilikina, but I’m glad we didn’t take him. His attitude produced major red flags at NC State. Not playing hard, yelling at the bench, alienating his teammates, etc. Right now the Knicks have one of the most toxic environments in the league, and we’re not a winning team either. That’s a bad place to put DSJ.

    I could see him and Melo yelling at each other over shots, Hornacek looking disgusted as he jogs under screens, and Charley Rosen ripping him in an article that was NOT AT ALL influenced by Phil. It’s more drama we don’t need.

  64. After months of complaining about Derrick Rose we have people complaining we didn’t get a poor man’s Derrick Rose. You can’t make this shit up.

  65. DSJ is much more like Lowry than Rose, in both build and play style.

    DSJ and pre injury Rose share that incredible explosiveness though. He’ll probably be good.

  66. @philmelo – please tell me what on/off numbers in 650 minutes for a low usage player is supposed to tell us? and what ts, usg and off reb% is supposed to tell us?

    the analytics team at espn is trash.. their analysis has always been trash with respect to the draft… that piece is about 500 words of really poor analysis… and the fact that you’re citing it leads me to believe that you don’t really understand what it is saying other than ‘frank was above average in the french league’…

  67. If true about his bad attitude I am glad we passed on DSJ. This team doesn’t need any more gasoline poured on that fire. Phil loves his big long guards so I suspect that had a lot to do with picking Frank over Smith too.

  68. Only DSJ can dunk like Westbrook. Could be a .520 TS% ball-chucking bust, but I can see why people think he could be a future star.

  69. If true about his bad attitude I am glad we passed on DSJ. This team doesn’t need any more gasoline poured on that fire. Phil loves his big long guards so I suspect that had a lot to do with picking Frank over Smith too.

    That’s definitely understandable. I was higher on Monk thank Smith for that reason, and the fact that Smith has some dog in him.

  70. DSJ is much more like Lowry than Rose, in both build and play style.

    Except that Lowry has always been a beast on the defensive end.

    I would’ve been happy with DSJ but it would’ve been another mostly 1-way player. That 1-way is a really good 1-way but I was much happier with the process of this pick.

  71. @97

    True, but he wasn’t very highly touted defensively coming out of college, at least from what I can recall. But yes I’ve been talking mainly about the offensive end re: Smith and Lowry comparisons

  72. My issue with the guys in the draft that drift in and out on the defensive end is what JVG says all the time. You build habits in practice over years and then those habits stay with you in good times and bad. Kyrie isn’t a terrible defender when he’s engaged, but he’s habitually not engaged — and so in the Finals when he was a little tired, he gave up all those runouts to GS. You can’t just be a 4th quarter or playoff defender — that switch has to be on from the start.

    I wonder if you were to search all DX scouting reports for “when engaged on defense”, how many of those players actually end up being good on defense.

  73. OK, maybe Minn trading Rubio for Lee if they want to sign a different PG makes sense. just seems like a lot of moving pieces. Plus, Wiggins is a 3, not a 4, so you kinda have to play butler at the 2.

    But, Jrue Holliday is going to cost them a ton of $$. Hill isn’t better than Rubio. Nor is Teague. If they can get Patty Mills, fine. If shooting is what they need, they should go after reddick or gallo

  74. If the Knicks hadn’t invested so much time and money into ball-dominant, scoring-oriented players over the last 15+ years I might be upset that they passed on Smith for Ntilikina. But I was actually relieved when Frank’s name was announced. I just don’t care much for the TYPE of player that Smith seems to be, and all of the negatives that show up on his scouting report are things that are all too familiar to me: questionable attitude, questionable decision-making ability, indifference on defense, tendency to chuck… I’m not bummed that we passed on this dude. I have seen this movie before.

  75. I’m not a big fan of Canyon Barry, but he fills a need. Signing him, Kornet, and Hayes are shrewd moves that are likely to pay off. I would have lived Cam Oliver, but I think Hayes is a better player- we are lucky to sign him at this point. I’m getting a little bit more encouraged

  76. You guys must chill. Personally, I’m cool about the squad rn. We did a pretty solid job drafting with Ntilikina and Dotson – a high upside pg with pro-level experience and a guy that had some issues at age 18 apparently but has some great numbers and should be a solid rotation guy. And more importantly, we didn’t make any terrible trades or draft any questionable talent (Tatum at 3? c’mon.) We still have the unicorn and Willy, and who knows – maybe Melo will recommit himself this year? He’s got talent around him, so maybe he can do some work out of the post?

    Phil has made some really dumb trades/signings in the past, but last night was nothing to get so worked up about. And re: the KP and Melo’s hurt feelings, if they can’t take being shopped, then they shouldn’t be on a pro court. All they have to do is win, and no one will care about any of that shit. Why should they be stroked when they won 31 games?

    Yes, we need more guards/swingmen, but we’re not Chicago at least. Philly is two fragile feet away from being basically nothing. Indy and Toronto’s best players want to leave. The Heat and the Magic are a mess. The Nets added a chucker. The Lakers don’t have much yet and the Clips are old and about to implode. Detroit has added very little talent over the years around Drummond.

    In short, it could be better but also could also be worse. Media types around the country want to stick it to NY but don’t fall for it.

  77. @78 Rama. Correct.

    In bad years, he takes lots of shots, plays no D, and doesn’t contribute as much in other areas. Will the team be worse without him? Yes. Is it best that he go? Yes. Best case, his timeline doesn’t jibe with where we’re at. Worst case, he continues to destroy the team from the inside (hello, KP) and poisons the well right when we’re finally looking to start something new.

    He has to go.

  78. not to sound too crazy – but, isn’t Frank really similar to Justin Holiday?

    can’t wait to find out whom our point guard will be next year – that’s gonna go a long way to determining whether we win 30 games or 40 games next year :-)

    oh yeah – i don’t think DSJr would have been a good fit for the big apple…too much focus from the media here on non basketball stuff…

  79. i’d be a little nervous if i was fultz heading to the sixers…it seems they share the same medical staff as the mets…

  80. @philmelo – please tell me what on/off numbers in 650 minutes for a low usage player is supposed to tell us? and what ts, usg and off reb% is supposed to tell us?

    Here is your problem – you’re a disingenuous interlocutor. Why? Because you contradict yourself when it benefits your preconceived bias. When it benefits you to shit on Frank’s numbers you state future indicators of success aren’t evident in his numbers. But when a careful analytical look of his numbers shows him outperforming the majority of older, more experienced competition in his league you discredit that as not enough of a sample size by a “low usage” player to tell us anything of merit. I wish you’d just be a consistent know-nothing instead of a contradictory one. I can at least respect someone who uniformly says that his production sample size is too small. But you can’t even do this. And this is why you fail.

  81. I’m not sure what to think about the pick until I see him play in the summer, but I’m optimistic because all of the people who were pro Rose and pro Bargnani and pro melo hate the pick.

  82. a guy that had some issues at age 18 apparently

    This is a bit of a euphemism, don’t you think? Let’s say “a guy that was accused of gang-raping a woman at age 18, apparently,” so as to not conflate that kind of behavior with stealing some crab legs from a grocery store or being caught with a bag of marijuana by campus police. He was accused of gang rape and the implications were so severe that he and two other teammates were immediately expelled and banned from campus for 10 years.

    Considering how poorly most universities handle campus rape, I’d say it’s more than “some issues at age 18.”

  83. but I’m optimistic because all of the people who were pro Rose and pro Bargnani and pro melo hate the pick.

    I noticed this, too.

  84. I’m not sure what to think about the pick until I see him play in the summer, but I’m optimistic because all of the people who were pro Rose and pro Bargnani and pro melo hate the pick.

    He’s not that type of player. He seems like a great role player borderline all star. My issue is that monk could be a Beal clone if not better and less injury prone. I just think it’s easier to get a Frank like player. Someone like Josh Hart could end up being just as good if not better and obtained later in the draft

  85. there was nothing careful about the analysis at all… there’s nothing contradictory about the sample size being too small for on/off numbers… for others like ftr, 3pr, stls, 2p fg%, rebounding… scoring volume… it is not…

    and again… if you understood what you were sourcing… you would know this…

  86. Here’s the thing that’s bothering me the most about Melo.

    I’m in the “overrated” camp. I also never liked his style of play or attitude either. He was never Marbury poisonous, but imo he was a net negative influence on the team.

    If he stays another year and then opts out, I don’t think that’s a horrible development. We are’t going to be very good next year anyway and we don’t have enough scoring to be competitive every night without him unless we get someone that can score to replace him.

    However, he is a rapidly depreciating asset. Right now he may still have some trade value. But if he has another below average season next year or declines further, he may not opt out and we won’t be able to get anything for him except cap space 3 seasons from now. I would WAY rather trade him now while we might still be able to get a young starter or pick for him than live through another two years of him and have nothing positive to show for it other than cap space.

  87. However, he is a rapidly depreciating asset. Right now he may still have some trade value. But if he has another below average season next year or declines further, he may not opt out and we won’t be able to get anything for him except cap space 3 years from now.

    The Dwight trade has disabused me of the notion we’re going to get much for Melo. I mean, it would be nice, but at this point I’d take a 2020 first round pick from the Clips.

  88. @114

    perfectly said.

    it’s no personal vendetta against melo, he just needs to go to solidify this team’s position as truly rebuilding and focusing on the young players.

    I hate the Dotson pick because of the rape allegations but well, its just a 2nd rounder, he might not ever get a roster spot.

    no dumb trades or big fa signings and this is as good of an off-season we can hope for with the 8th pick and not many assets.

  89. The Dwight trade has disabused me of the notion we’re going to get much for Melo. I mean, it would be nice, but at this point I’d take a 2020 first round pick from the Clips.

    That may be true, but maybe Howard is a special case.

    He’s a terrible transition defender and the league is moving towards stretch 5s that he can’t guard at all on the perimeter. Plus, he’s no bargain to deal with as a player. He complains when he doesn’t get minutes and touches. That’s why he keeps asking out or getting traded. Maybe that hurt his value even though on the surface it looks like he can still rebound and play OK.

  90. I’m hoping that Ntilikina turns out to be The Glove, The Locksmith and The Answer all in one, and that DSjr turns out to be Chucker McACltear, but based on all I read and watched, I think Smith will be a top-5 PG in 5-6 years and Ntilikina will be in and out of someone’s rotation. Sure hope I’m wrong!

  91. there was nothing careful about the analysis at all… there’s nothing contradictory about the sample size being too small for on/off numbers… for others like ftr, 3pr, stls, 2p fg%, rebounding… scoring volume… it is not…

    You don’t read well do you? You must not because you don’t seem to understand you’re contradicting yourself. You went and argued that his numbers in France were poor indicators of future success. You now argue we can throw away an analytical look of his metrics across the board because of their small sample size. Is Ntilikina’s sample size large enough to tell us something or not? Which is it? Of course, the answer seems to lie in whatever fits your bias. Please, just stop. You sound like a dope.

  92. Phil I’m not sure you understand what that ‘analytical look at his metrics’ actually said.

  93. By the way… Franks big game is starting now… Let’s see what he is capable of under pressure

  94. If somebody wanna watch the game, just look here…

    I deleted the link, because I’m not sure if it’s allowed to post it here…

  95. Illicit sports streaming sites

    Idk if it’s allowed to post links so I’ll just leave it at that

  96. He’s a terrible transition defender and the league is moving towards stretch 5s that he can’t guard at all on the perimeter. Plus, he’s no bargain to deal with as a player. He complains when he doesn’t get minutes and touches. That’s why he keeps asking out or getting traded. Maybe that hurt his value even though on the surface it looks like he can still rebound and play OK.

    He’s nasty in the half-court, but he was ruined by comparisons to Shaq early in his career. Zach Lowe once talked about how people got in his ear about not having a post game, and I believe Lowe when he says that it’s made its way into his playing philosophy.

    Bigger than that, I think he is universally despised in the locker room. I’ve had a number of coworkers who were deeply unfunny, but would constantly be trying to get people to laugh. I’d rather sit in a room with a completely silent person than have a guy make puns and other shit like that after he’s been repeatedly told that no one thinks it’s funny.

  97. Is it crazy to think reversing the Love trade could happen? Not exactly reversing it, but Love to Minny, Wiggins to the Clippers and DJ to the Cavs? I know it seems like the Clippers wouldn’t do that deal, but I dunno. Doc isn’t the best GM, and they were apparently shopping Jordan pretty hard, probably seeing the writing on the wall in free agency. Wiggins probably has excessive trade value with some teams. Doesn’t seem totally impossible. Love and Towns are not a great defensive pairing but man could they use the shooting and versatility. Tristan Thompson would become superfluous though.

    Zach Lowe said the Celtics wouldn’t even discuss including the 3rd pick in a Butler deal. That seems really shocking if true.

  98. Phil I’m not sure you understand what that ‘analytical look at his metrics’ actually said.

    I will quote their conclusion.

    Given Ntilikina’s contributions at the professional level, it’s reasonable to be optimistic about his NBA potential. Although he’s a little thin, his 6-5 frame gives him the flexibility to develop into a shooting guard as much as a point guard and helps his chances of staying in the league. He has been getting minutes on a professional team the past two seasons and has shown steady improvement.

    In comparison to the rest of this class, he’s younger than everyone but Ike Anigbogu and Markelle Fultz yet has more professional experience than everyone except a few 21-year-old international players. Ntilikina might be somewhat of an unknown to NBA fans, but league executives are optimistic about his potential for what appear to be sound reasons.

  99. I’m still waiting to hear what I said about his playoff numbers were wrong

    Actually, I asked if those numbers were playoff or regular season numbers. I am glad you finally answered.

    I am still waiting for you to acknowledge he’s playing significant minutes in the playoffs.

  100. The safer pick really would have been Monk and not Smith Jr or Frank.

    Depends on what you’re looking for. If you wanted a shooter/scorer Monk would have been the surer bet. Phil was looking for something different.

  101. [The Lakers] dangled an unprotected first-round pick in front of every team with cap room to dump one of the toxic Timofey Mozgov/Luol Deng deals, sources say, and finding no takers, finally flipped Russell and Mozgov to Brooklyn.

    http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/presents-19712292/zach-lowe-jimmy-butler-trade-future-minnesota-timberwolves-chicago-bulls-nba

    I guess we only want bad contracts if we give them out ourselves, and we’re not interested in unprotected draft picks unless we’re giving up our best player. Makes sense.

  102. I liked Monk and would’ve been fine getting him, but I think his floor is actually lower than Ntilikina because I don’t think he has a chance of being anything but a barely average defensive player, and that’s if he works really hard at it and everything falls right. In addition, at Monk’s defensive peak he’s still a 1 position defender.

    On offense, Monk is a much more diverse scorer in terms of how he can get his shot off, but he’s more turnover prone and probably less advanced as a PG prospect than Ntilikina is.

  103. I guess we only want bad contracts if we give them out ourselves, and we’re not interested in unprotected draft picks unless we’re giving up our best player. Makes sense.

    not sure if there were timing issues involved, but it bears mentioning that we don’t currently have cap room, and won’t until July 1. Not sure if that was the hang-up or what.

  104. Actually, I asked if those numbers were playoff or regular season numbers. I am glad you finally answered.

    I am still waiting for you to acknowledge he’s playing significant minutes in the playoffs.

    Sigh

  105. I guess we only want bad contracts if we give them out ourselves, and we’re not interested in unprotected draft picks unless we’re giving up our best player. Makes sense.

    See, this is why it’s going to take forever to get this rebuild going. We couldn’t add the bad Mozgov contract because we had just given out the bad Noah contract, and Phil didn’t want to carry $35M of shitty center contracts. This is going to be a tedious, one-draft-pick-per-year, slow-ass rebuild.

    Thanks, Phil!

  106. not sure if there were timing issues involved, but it bears mentioning that we don’t currently have cap room, and won’t until July 1. Not sure if that was the hang-up or what.

    That’s a good point. Still, the problem remains. Would Phil be willing to take on bad contracts to acquire future draft picks? I’m guessing probably not. He will probably use that cap space to simply acquire more bad contracts, at dollars on the penny because you have to pay free agents a premium to come play in this miserable shithole.

  107. DSJr was such a bad guy the coach he supposedly got fire still speaks highly of him and was there with him at the draft.

    Frank = Exum is lazy

    Smith Jr = Rose is very astute.

    Every explosive player must be Rose or Westbrook even though the way they play the game are different. Smith Jr actually plays with control and pace instead of using just his speed to get to his spots.

  108. No way is Frank’s ceiling higher the Smith’s. Smith is an A+ athlete with actual basketball skills- if he puts the attitude issues behind him and at least tries on defense he could be a perennial all-star. Frank’s offensive game is mystery- he shot threes well though the sample size is tiny, didn’t do a whole lot in the playmaking department even if you adjust for pace, and didn’t get in the lane at all. He appears to have the makings of a defensive stud but he fouls at a really high rate- 4.5 per 36- in a league where they don’t generally attack off of the dribble so you have to figure it’ll take at least a year or two before he starts paying real dividends on that end. By all accounts he’s a smart, hard working kid so I think chances are good he winds up at least as a decent 3 and D guy but unless he is able to make a real leap in terms of explosiveness I don’t think his ceiling on offense is particularly high. And please don’t bring up Giannis-he grew three inches the year before he was drafted so it was clear he had a really good chance to improve his athleticism. I’m hoping Frank winds up like Iggy which would be a nice outcome for an 8 pick but I think Smith could be better than that- certainly could wind up worse than Frank but his ceiling is higher.

  109. Everybody please stop trying to scout the box scores of an 18 year old playing as a role player in a weird French league with a bunch of grown men. There’s some signal in there, but an awful lot of noise. I don’t know how the fuck those boxscores translate and neither does anybody else.

    kthanksbai

  110. Everybody please stop trying to scout the box scores of an 18 year old playing as a role player in a weird French league with a bunch of grown men.

    I’m watching game 5 live.

  111. I think projecting franks best case scenario is difficult because if he does grow into his frame and *does* show an extra athletic gear after putting on the weight that his frame looks like it can, well, you have a potential two way monster. But who knows if he has that extra gear–we won’t know until year three or four when he properly grows into his frame

    If he doesn’t get much bigger his ceiling is lock down defender and a George hill style game offensively which is still very good

  112. This from ESPN’s website: “Rick Carlisle leaves no doubt Mavs wanted Dennis Smith over Frank Ntilikina, saying there was “uproarious” applause when Knicks made pick.”
    Mavs played poker, feigning intense interest in Frank, even hiring his coach, when they coveted DSJ all along. Clyde has often said that you should never tip your hand, but that is what the Knicks do all too often.

    I don’t believe this for a second. If you bluffed someone, would you jump up and down to celebrate?

  113. The last quarter just started in France and it’s still close. Now it’s Frank’s time…

  114. I’ve watched 5 minutes of this game and based on this sample size I now see why Frank doesn’t put up much in way of stats. That little PG they have running the show is awful and the rest of the players on the team suck, yet they shoot all the shots.

  115. This pg heavy draft. Look back 8 years ago it is also a pg heavy draft. During that time Johnny Flynn was picked ahead of Curry, and Jennings was picked ahead of holiday, Lawson, Collison. By that time Flynn is considered a better prospect. In this year draft, maybe the Stephen curry is ball/flutz. Dennis smith or fox could be Flynn or Jennings. My prediction for Ntikina, he could be our Rubio or Holiday.

  116. Ntilikina is going to be the youngest player in the NBA next year. He is still only 18. If he shows anything at all as a rookie I’ll be excited.

  117. Every explosive player must be Rose or Westbrook even though the way they play the game are different. Smith Jr actually plays with control and pace instead of using just his speed to get to his spots.

    Hmmm….

    But a few days ago, when the Mavericks started to believe they had a shot at drafting Smith, they engaged him in a FaceTime call with Carlisle, team president Donnie Nelson and assistant vice president of basketball operations Michael Finley.

    “I asked him the question, ‘Who does your game, who do you think your game is like?’ ” Carlisle said. “He said he thought that he was a bit like Derrick Rose as a stronger point guard that could slash, create or shoot the ball, make plays, those kinds of things.”
    Finley said he heard Smith say the same thing, with a slightly different twist: “He said he was Derrick Rose with a jump shot.”

    The very guy himself compares his game to Derrick Rose. So if you have a problem with the comparison blame DSJ for it.

  118. If you accept that hte Knicks won’t be good for at least another two seasons, then why do you trade for Rubio? All it does is get the Knicks a worse draft pick and eat a roster spot and minutes that could go to a player who might grow into being worth more than his contract.

    Then, if you are still fascinated by Rubio, you sign him as a free agent in summer 2019.

    There is literally nothing good that can come of acquiring Rubio. If you want a pass first PG, there are plenty to be had in FA for cheap such as Sergio Rodriguez.

    Think about it like this: would the Wolves have traded Rubio + #7 for a top 4 pick? There’s no question that they would. We’d essentially be doing the reverse two years in a row by trading for him.

  119. A bit like Rose is not the same as being another Rose. Rose with a jump shot and a Rose that actually pass isn’t the same as Rose.

  120. I despised both the Rose trade and the Bargnani trade, and I vastly preferred Smith to Ntilikina. We can argue all day about the intricacies of Frank’s situation and thus his statistical profile, but the fact of the matter is nothing stands out right now. That doesn’t mean he won’t develop any skills, but it does mean that he’s a huge risk, and I’m sorry, but it also raises questions about his ceiling. Just about every successful NBA player showed something in their youth (stop trolling about Porzingis–he was 3rd on Kevin Pelton’s “stats only” big board).

    I don’t know where this “lol Dennis Smith is a classic Knicks ball hog” thing came from. He averaged 7.1 assists per 40. That’s more than both Fultz and Smith. I feel pretty confident in projecting him to be a better facilitator than Ntilikina. He averaged 5.2 rebounds per 40. There are legitimate concerns about his defense, but 2.2 steals per 40 makes it pretty clear that he’s not hopeless there. The point is there are reasons to think Smith will be a good NBA player.

    Stop me if you’ve heard this before, but I hope I’m wrong! More so now than just about anything else because of how important this draft pick will be for our future. Clarence Gaines is definitely a better scout than me. It’s possible Ntilikina will be an absolute stud, but an objective look at the information we currently have pretty clearly says Smith was the smarter pick.

    Also Dotson looked like a mediocre selection at the time, and with the rape case news I can only hope he gets cut. Picking him over Dillon Brooks was pants-on-head stupid. But hey, at least Phil Jackson is developing a type!

  121. I’m fine with Frank, would’ve been totally fine with DSJ. Can’t argue with any of your points.

  122. we actually do know how much it translates… pelton has pretty good euroleague translations and coincidentally didn’t rate ntilikina highly….

    predicting how good a player will be is never going to be 100% accurate… but a good portion of what a player will become is informed by how good they are now… that’s the thing you can sort of quantify… the other part is how they develop physically and from a basketball sense… that part is unpredictable…

    but it doesn’t take clairvoyance to determine that durant was going to be better than someone like wesley johnson… why? because he was a lot better at a much younger age… and to close that gap it’s going to take a herculean development curve…

    to frank’s credit.. he is incredibly young and his coaches put him in a limited role… but a guy like doncic similarly has low minutes but doesn’t have any issues distinguishing himself in a much better league at similar ages… smith had no issues distinguishing himself either at a similar age… time will tell… but frank has a long way to go….

  123. Dennis Smith seems like a riot, though:

    “Dennis Smith Jr. says in his introductory press conference that he’s looking forward to learning how to play defense.”

  124. Wait a minute. I almost forgot about Dolan’s Razor.

    Let me adjust my evaluation thusly: Smith will be a star, and Ntilikina will be a bust.

  125. A bit like Rose is not the same as being another Rose. Rose with a jump shot and a Rose that actually pass isn’t the same as Rose.

    LOL. Keep on trying to twist pretzels into logic but DSJ kept on making the comparison as he made the rounds.

    The idea of playing for the Knicks intrigued Dennis Smith Jr. But not as much as teaming up with Derrick Rose. That truly appealed to the ACC Rookie of the Year, one of college basketball’s top prospects.

    I’m a Derrick Rose fan, so I’m not going to say they need a point guard,” the gifted 6-foot-2 Smith said Monday after N.C. State practiced at Barclays Center in advance of Tuesday’s ACC Tournament opening round. “I like Derrick Rose a lot.

    “That would be exciting,” he said, about potentially playing alongside the Knicks point guard, who will be a free agent this summer. “Derrick Rose is somebody I watched a lot of, and I got a lot of respect for him. I definitely could [see myself playing in New York City]. It would be great.”

  126. Who cares about what dennis smith verbally avows? He’s much more like Lowry than Rose no matter what he says

    And if I grew up watching ore injury Derrick Rose while also have a 40+ inch max vert he’d probably be one of my favorite players too

  127. I don’t know where this “lol Dennis Smith is a classic Knicks ball hog” thing came from.

    His 27% usage percentage?

  128. Pre-injury Derrick Rose was a .208 WS48 player. If Phil Jackson got that with the 8th pick I’d volunteer to be his personal media hack on the days when Charley Rosen wanted to recover some of his dignity.

  129. @jonmalexander
    Dennis Smith Jr. says in his introductory press conference that he’s looking forward to learning how to play defense.

  130. His 27% usage percentage?

    …you are aware that much of this comes from assists, yes?

  131. Who cares about what dennis smith verbally avows? He’s much more like Lowry than Rose no matter what he says

    It matters a hell of a lot if Derrick Rose is the model of point guard DSJ wants to be. He goes to a team in the Knicks whose front office basically was done with Derrick Rose’s style of play and then says that’s the guy who he wants to play with and wont’ say our team doesn’t need another point guard because we have him. LOL. And then people wonder why DSJ wasn’t chosen or why some Knicks fans would have an issue with his game here.

  132. Dennis Smith Jr. says in his introductory press conference that he’s looking forward to learning how to play defense.

    Kind of late for that isn’t it?

  133. …you are aware that much of this comes from assists, yes?

    I could be wrong but I don’t see assists here:

    Usage Percentage (available since the 1977-78 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * ((FGA + 0.44 * FTA + TOV) * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm FGA + 0.44 * Tm FTA + Tm TOV)).

  134. pelton has pretty good euroleague translations and coincidentally didn’t rate ntilikina highly….

    Is there somewhere I can see those?

  135. If a future Knicks owner made the rounds and publicly said “I’m a Phil Jackson fan, so I’m not going to say they need another general manager” the same people who say it doesn’t matter that DSJ compares himself to, likes, and wants to play with Rose would freak the fuck out. But because they have a bias in favor of DSJ its a harmless analogy that means nothing. Riiiiiiiiight….

  136. DSJ is not choosing the players on the team and averaged almost 8 assists per 48 I don’t care what he thinks about Derrick Rose’s BPM

  137. Ntilikina is another test of the Knicks’ international scouting abilities. They’ve done well in that area so far, in fact you could say that is the only area in which this FO has had any kind of success. So I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt on this one. He’s a reasonable pick at #8, that’s about where he was projected to go all along, so even though I hate Phil I won’t roast him on this if Ntilikina busts. It’s a high-variance pick, no doubt, but honestly I’d rather have a George Hill type than a Steve Francis type.

  138. It’s eminently reasonable to assert that smith had the superior statistical profile to frank–every scout metric and model pretty much said as much. That doesn’t mean Frank wasn’t the right pick–just likely the riskier one given the lack of adequate information and the questions about age and growth into his frame

  139. I’m fine with Frank. Would have been fine with Smith. Less so with Monk. I’m cautiously optimistic Frank will work out, but all of these guys have big questions. Wouldn’t be surprised if all three bust, or if they all end up as solid role players who never really break out.

  140. If you accept that the Knicks won’t be good for at least another two seasons, then why do you trade for Rubio? All it does is get the Knicks a worse draft pick and eat a roster spot and minutes that could go to a player who might grow into being worth more than his contract.

    isn’t it better to hold out on some unwarranted hope that things will magically improve at the beginning of next season and to be able to actually enjoy a month or two of the nba before january rolls around and everything predictably turns to shit…

    yeah though – rubio wouldn’t help our tank for next season…

  141. Phil sticks by his convictions and isn’t swayed by others who shouldn’t even be allowed to discuss basketball with him. 13 rings in case anyone forgot.

  142. Frank is a baby Giannis who is a great defender and a winner. Dotson a lights out shooter with an NBA body and quickness. Jaramaz is a wild card but he looks great on his recent videos from 10 days ago. I love that Phil and Company stick to their guns, stay with with their system and take who they like and avoid the hype of know nothings like us and the press. We did great.

  143. I bet the moment DSJ opened his mouth in a dinner with Phil and said he compared his game to Rose’s was the moment the interest ended.

  144. DSJ is not choosing the players on the team and averaged almost 8 assists per 48 I don’t care what he thinks about Derrick Rose’s BPM

    I do. It speaks to the kind of PG he wants to become.

  145. I bet the moment DSJ opened his mouth in a dinner with Phil and said he compared his game to Rose’s was the moment the interest ended.

    So Dennis Smith saying he wants to be like prime Derrick Rose is damning, but Phil Jackson saying he is considering re-signing post-injury, shitty Derrick Rose is all good?

  146. pelton’s translations are a black box.. he posted his methodology awhile back behind the insider paywall but he used players who transferred over and their first year in the nba to come up with the translations..

    you’d want to look at the stats rank and the consensus rank since he normalizes with ford’s rankings…

    incidentally.. if you’re curious you should also look at the model projections and their performance over time.. and see where the espn analytics grade out… that’s here

  147. Young Dotson’s attorneys:

    ““Several Inconvenient Truths”:

    No jury would find that Dominic Artis, Brandon Austin or Damyean Dotson committed any form of sexual assault against their accuser. Some people will insist that the University’s suspension is proof that the acts occurred, but they would be wrong. This determination was carved in stone the day the University’s president, in response to a hail of local and national criticism, all but declared these young men guilty and dismissed them from the team. Good political cover, bad principle. It’s absurd to expect that his underlings in the Legal & Student Affairs Departments would deviate from that line.

    The process for determining student code violations is not well understood by the general public. There are few safeguards in the process to ensure that evidence is accurately and adequately presented and impartially considered. The University decides what information it will share, it decides what information will be considered, and it sets the ground rules for how information is presented. The University has power to subpoena witnesses; the accused student has none. Our repeated requests to the university to use that power to bring in witnesses to testify on behalf of the accused were ignored.”

  148. It’s a high-variance pick, no doubt, but honestly I’d rather have a George Hill type than a Steve Francis type.

    BINGO.

  149. So Dennis Smith saying he wants to be like prime Derrick Rose is damning, but Phil Jackson saying he is considering re-signing post-injury, shitty Derrick Rose is all good?

    Neither would be good. Though I never heard Phil say he wanted to sign Rose. Only that he was paying attention – which is as noncommittal either way as you can be.

  150. @200

    You said Pelton has “pretty good euroleague translations” making it sound like he has some keen insight into how Euros translate into the NBA. Then you show me a chart of where he is compared to the rest of the expert projections, where his overall projects are correct less than half the time. Jesus.

  151. ESPN draft grade on the Knicks:

    “New York Knicks?: B+
    Round 1: Frank Ntilikina (8)
    Round 2: Damyean Dotson (44), Ognjen Jaramaz (58)
    The Knicks have had a disastrous week from a PR perspective, with controversy swirling around their Kristaps Porzingis trade discussions. But on draft night, I liked what they did.
    Ntilikina’s combination of length, basketball IQ and point guard skills makes him a good get. If he becomes a more consistent shooter, he’ll be a steal at No. 8. And though he’s the youngest player in the draft, he is starting for his team in the French league finals. That’s much stronger competition than in our NCAA tournament.
    Dotson was one of my second-round sleepers. Had he not gotten into off-court problems at Oregon after his freshman year, I think he would’ve been a first-round pick as a sophomore. He can shoot and score and is a very good athlete. He reminds me a bit of Rodney Hood.
    Jaramaz is a big point guard with good athleticism and the ability to slash to the basket. His jump shot and court vision are still works in progress, but he’s a good draft-and-stash option.”

    Nice job, Phil!

  152. Another hot take: the presumption of innocence should not be used in sexual assault cases

    That’s a rough one. I personally think our justice system is right in prioritizing protecting the innocent over prosecuting the guilty, but I understand the other side of the argument especially if I or a loved one were raped.

  153. And though he’s the youngest player in the draft, he is starting for his team in the French league finals.

    But er told me he isn’t a major contributor on his playoff team.

  154. I’m very interested in how Sacramento has completely remade their team in the space of 4 months. It’s tangentially related to our situation in that they also had a “superstar” that basically put their team and FO in a kind of stasis — you can’t rebuild with Boogie there because he’s in his prime, right? And look what they’ve done since then — 3 excellent draft picks, now have $52MM in cap space this summer that they can either use to get better or dole out in unbalanced trades or salary dumps to get even more assets.

    You have to wonder how Phil would proceed if he were somehow able to get Melo to leave.

    In the back of my mind I think Phil is still being an asshole to everyone just to get Melo to agree to a trade, even at the cost of pissing off KP.

  155. In the back of my mind I think Phil is still being an asshole to everyone just to get Melo to agree to a trade, even at the cost of pissing off KP.

    The problem is that Phil doesn’t have anyone to blame for that problem but himself once he gave that ‘no trade clause’ out to Melo. Now, I don’t know what was said at the time or what options were available to trade Melo, but do know that NTC has been a huge albatross around this franchise’s neck since then.

  156. I think we’ll see a Melo trade in August. After Phil assembles a young and uninspiring team in free agency, Melo will look around and decide to take a 1 year moonlight in Cleveland to play with LeBron and then either retire or go to LA.

    At that point, we’ll see a 3 team trade with a team like OKC to go along with Cleveland and New York. Melo will bring us back a decent player and we’ll move forward with the KP era.

  157. @224

    Frank did fine. Don’t listen to that idiot. He was +3 while his team was – 48

    9 points 4/6 shooting with 4/4 2s, 2 assists, 2 rebounds, 1 steal, 3 turnovers , 4 fouls in 24 mins

    And you know he had to have the worst case of jet lag ever.

    +3 +/-, rest of team combined -48

  158. Another hot take: the presumption of innocence should not be used in sexual assault cases

    Are we talking about Fifth/Sixth/Fourteenth Amendment presumption of innocence? Because if so, that’s an insane authoritarian take.

    If we’re talking about the right for private citizens to publicly declare that a person has committed some offense despite a lack of arrest, indictment, conviction, etc., sure, I agree. Otherwise you’re getting into some murky distributive-justice territory that is all sorts of ripe for abuse.

  159. mr philmelo… stop being a fucking dick… seriously… i gave you a good starting point to go research this yourself.. i told you all of pelton’s work is behind a paywall…

    how about instead of handwaving your way through an argument and namecalling when challenged… spend some of that finger energy and try your hand at educating yourself…

  160. In the back of my mind I think Phil is still being an asshole to everyone just to get Melo to agree to a trade, even at the cost of pissing off KP.

    I think Phil is playing the kinds of mind games he played as a coach. The problem is, that is moronic coming from the front office, where there isn’t direct contact with players so shit can be hashed out.

    On the other hand, if his actions inspire KP to become the player he said he wanted to be – “sorry, we tried to trade you but no one thought you were good enough” – and if his actions inspire Melo to take any trade presented to him, then those were some good mind games to play.

    I believe it’s possible it will play out that way. I also believe it’s more likely that Melo refuses to go, and KP is alienated to the point he wants to go.

    Big Picture: KP is here for so much longer that it probably doesn’t matter. If the team is good by the time he has the option to leave, things should work out fine.

  161. mr philmelo… stop being a fucking dick… seriously… i gave you a good starting point to go research this yourself.. i told you all of pelton’s work is behind a paywall…

    Sorry if my calling you out for being wrong offends you but I asked for information on what you claimed Pelton did well – evaluate Euroleague player transition into the NBA. I didn’t know you meant he’s a little less shittier in evaluating overall NBA draft picks than the average consensus. And I sure as hell didn’t know this guy’s expertise meant he was less accurate than flipping a fucking coin 50/50 on a given pick. Either way, its clear you’re not a serious interlocutor and have an ax to grind on Ntilikina. I’ll be sure to take your assertions with just a little less grain of salt than I do er or reub.

  162. Nigel Hayes has a chance:

    “Standing 6’7.25 in shoes with a gigantic 7’3 wingspan and a 245-pound frame, Hayes’s intrigue at the NBA level has long started with his length and physical maturity. He possesses decent quickness and average explosiveness, however, looking more like a true power forward than the small forward he seemed to have some potential to become early on, which probably isn’t too much of an issue in today’s NBA anyway.” – Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Nigel-Hayes-69526/ ©DraftExpress

  163. My guess is that all of us have rooted for athletes that are rapists, domestic abusers, and just plain assholes. For every guy that gets caught, several don’t.

    The star athlete culture, whether in high school, college or the pros has been marked by rampant sexual abuse and harassment forever. More women are coming forward now, but my guess is that it’s still a pretty significant minority.

    Does it make someone an enabler if he/she gets giddy if he makes a game-winning jumper for his/her beloved team? I guess each of us has a line between where being a sports fan ends and being a promoter of social causes begins.

  164. I’ll give Phil the benefit of the doubt on this one and I’m certainly rooting a lot for Frank next season, but here is my prediction:

    He will play inconsistent minutes until early january because he’s nowhere near ready to play a NBA game. Then, sent to Westchester where he will have uninspiring numbers for about two months. Around March, our annual tank armada love fest will be full steam and he will be called back to play regular minutes.

    Bonus: He will also join Melo’s fan club and miss the exit meeting.

    Next year Doncic!

  165. i have no idea where you are getting the accuracy numbers but wherever you are getting them from… it’s not correct…. there’s a chart there that shows how accurate he is relative to everyone else…

    i was hoping you’d go into his past years projections and take a look at the euros… wily at 21, jokic at 11, capela at 6(french pro a), gobert at 20(french pro a)… it’s a starting point… that’s all…

    he’s not perfect… but relative to others he does ok and it’s usually on the strength on his euro projections.. and altogether certainly better than the analytics team…

  166. Rudy Gobert and Giannis Antetokounmpo are the best players to come out of that 2013 draft. Nikola Jokic has been the best player from the 2014 draft. I really think it takes a good eye to scout in Europe for talent. Ntilikina works hard and can play. He is a ferocious defender and once he’s a full time NBA player you’re looking at a generational talent at that end. He’s a true gamewrecker and has a passion for defense. I love the pick and you will all come around when DSJr and Ntilikina square off and Dennis Smith Jr is 2/13 shooting with 4 turnovers against him.

  167. Does it make someone an enabler if he/she gets giddy if he makes a game-winning jumper for his/her beloved team? I guess each of us has a line between where being a sports fan ends and being a promoter of social causes begins.

    Its hard to be blamed for something you didn’t know about.

  168. i have no idea where you are getting the accuracy numbers but wherever you are getting them from… it’s not correct…. there’s a chart there that shows how accurate he is relative to everyone else…

    Yes, that’s the chart I used. I did the math by using the percentages they list. He’s under 50 percent.

    i was hoping you’d go into his past years projections and take a look at the euros… wily at 21, jokic at 11, capela at 6(french pro a), gobert at 20(french pro a)… it’s a starting point… that’s all…

    Most of these underrate the fuck out these players. Willy is a top 3 pick so far. Jokic too. Gobert is top 5.

  169. How does Phil find a guy like Kornet who looks better than Markkanen as an undrafted free agent? How does he find white lightning in a 6’5″ body like Jaramaz? A lights out shooter with great size and agility like Dotson in the second round? And a Baby Giannis at pick #8. It’s so nice to have draft picks again. Phil please don’t ever retire.

  170. Jowles, I meant presumption of innocence shouldn’t be considered a norm outside of a court of law (and even in the court of law I think that it ought to be narrowly construed)–ie I have no obligation to presume Dotson (or Rose for that matter) innocent given the particulars of the case. It’s especially absurd in the realm of public opinion to use PofI because PofI for the accused also equates to presuming that the accuser is lying, which is problematic in sexual assault stuff for all kinds of obvious reasons.

    However I do wholeheartedly support expanding the definition and scope of sexual assault law and lowering evidentiary standards in rape cases because they are currently almost unproveable.

  171. I’m sitting in the upper deck in the Bronx waiting for the rain and made the mistake of reading the posts here today.
    I’m NOT siding with Reub but I’m not convicting anyone here today either. It’s not my job. I just hope Phil did his Homework. We seem to have had a history of adding scum people to the Knicks and some of them have been management. Remember Isaiah Thomas and Anucha Browne Sanders? How about Derek Fisher. I like how he totaled Barne’s car last week. Hey, I feel like I need to put on blinders and ignore the police blotter or I can’t watch sports anymore.

    Drafting Frank-N-stein doesn’t bug me. I am hopeful that he’s a bonafide player. I’m willing to give him a chance to develop and shine later. He has a lot of what I want in a PG. First, he defends, he likes to drive the lane. Is he Steph Curry? Is he Westbrook? I don’t think he has that kind of upside. Can he ball? We’ll see. I’m totally in the camp of those who want another tank, but I would love to be surprised with a miracle season. Yeah, I know the Knick and Jets are going to be competing for “Most pathetic team” this fall but I can dream/hallucinate can’t I?

  172. I am just thrilled we nabbed Frank. Everything else is the cherry on top of the Ntilikina Sundae.

  173. I watched this video of 2015-2016 Nigel Hayes and think this could be a nice acquisition. He’s got a 7’3″+ wingspan, moves his feet very well and plays perimeter defense. Plus he has many other good attributes like knowing how to set screens, box out, play in the post, alter shots. He’s very active with his hands and feet and looks Draymond-like, showing some ability to make threes as well. He’s got a chance for an UDFA.

  174. We need a Knick name for the kid. Even those of us who don’t like the pick need get behind him because he’s gonna be here.

  175. go new york – i think i remember you inspiring the knicks to a win in an appearance you made at the garden this season…

    please – whatever magic you can work tonight – get the freaking bullpen back on track for the yanks…

  176. We need a Knick name for the kid. Even those of us who don’t like the pick need get behind him because he’s gonna be here.

    If he’s a shutdown defender at this level I nominate “The French Wrench” as a nickname.

  177. @260 – if they ever get this friggin game started!

    The Bombers must have subcontracted weather analysis to the Knicks management and they must be struggling to decipher the maps over the Bronx on Weather.com

  178. @263 I just checked the weather radar for you and it looks like the first wave of storms will be over in a few minutes so hang in there. The problem is that there appears to be a bigger line near Sparta NJ that is only an hour away or so.
    It could be a long night.

  179. hope you got a chance to stay for the whole game go ny…way to bring it home :-)

    Of course! It’s a rare game that I leave early. Tonight was a great one and the Yanks are 8-4 in the games I’ve attended this year!

  180. Jowles, I meant presumption of innocence shouldn’t be considered a norm outside of a court of law

    Agreed. There is a similar problem with the First Amendment — people think it’s a shield from criticism of their stupid opinions or beliefs, not realizing it’s a shield from the government prosecuting/persecuting them for those things. If I watch someone assault another person, I don’t need a conviction to make a moral judgment upon that person, but I strongly believe that the state should not be able to arrest, indict, try and convict that person without due process, probable cause, etc.

    (and even in the court of law I think that it ought to be narrowly construed)–ie I have no obligation to presume Dotson (or Rose for that matter) innocent given the particulars of the case. It’s especially absurd in the realm of public opinion to use PofI because PofI for the accused also equates to presuming that the accuser is lying, which is problematic in sexual assault stuff for all kinds of obvious reasons.

    However I do wholeheartedly support expanding the definition and scope of sexual assault law and lowering evidentiary standards in rape cases because they are currently almost unproveable.

    To your latter point about evidentiary standards, it presents an interesting dilemma for legal formalists, who would likely believe that implicit bias (against victims) and other forms of silent, passive discrimination are not facets of a true and just jurist. (But of course, they are present in virtually everyone.) I would probably have a lot to say over a beer, but I think we largely agree on these points.

  181. Sorry, folks, I was traveling all day (road trip down to North Carolina for a family reunion, so I was in a car most of today. In a hotel in VA now). Deleted a bunch of gross comments (and the responses to said comments) and banned one poster. So, yeah, rape apologism is gross, Don’t do that.

  182. Sorry, folks, I was traveling all day (road trip down to North Carolina, so I was in a car most of today. In a hotel in VA now). Deleted a bunch of gross comments (and the responses to said comments) and banned one poster. So, yeah, rape apologism is gross, Don’t do that.

    Is there anyone who actually is an apologist for rape? Seriously? Other than murder, there isn’t a more insidious violation of another’s human rights IMO.

    However, western civilization is characterized by the notion of redemption. Whether it comes from the so called Judeo Cristian ethic or compassion or where ever, we DO give people second chances in life from most offense, even murder.

    In this case, the authorities didn’t feel they could bring a successful prosecution. DA’s aren’t usually bashful to bring rape cases because even if they lose, they look like a white knight and if they win even a dicey case they can build a political career around it, so I am going to assume there is more than some doubt a real crime was committed here. It isn’t impossible the player is innocent of rape. He may certainly be guilty. None of us know with metaphysical certitude.

    Anyone is free to boycott the Knicks or boo the player incessantly should they choose, but the notion he should be barred from playing in the NBA without being convicted is nonsensical IMO.

  183. You just said that rape apologism was unfathomable and then you acted as an apologist in, like, the next sentence.

    I pray to my higher power that no one you love has to go through the second violation of being a rape victim in our fucked-up legal system. It’s going to be awfully hard for them to hear that they might be lying, especially if their attacker isn’t brought up on charges.

  184. Is there anyone who actually is an apologist for rape?

    In this specific context, yes. It was assuredly done just to troll people and was not a legit belief, but yes, here there was, and it upset a lot of commenters.

  185. You just said that rape apologism was unfathomable and then you acted as an apologist in, like, the next sentence.

    I pray to my higher power that no one you love has to go through the second violation of being a rape victim in our fucked-up legal system. It’s going to be awfully hard for them to hear that they might be lying, especially if their attacker isn’t brought up on charges.

    Clearly I would not agree with your characterization of what I said. I believe your definition of “rape apologist” is overly broad. But that seems to be the position of your ilk…. call names and shout people down if you don’t like what they have to say.

    Its is awfully hard (your words) to believe the DA wouldn’t bring a case if the evidence clearly stated he was guilty. You don’t prosecute people on a “hunch” they “might” be right. If that means there are some guilty people walking around, I far prefer that to having innocent people behind bars.

    Other than being raped or murdered, the only thing I can think of that is worse would be to be incarcerated falsely. In this society, we try to assiduously avoid that. That is the way the system is set up.

    I have no idea if the man is guilty or innocent of rape and that’s the bottom line. It is kind of hard to be an apologist for a crime if one might not have been committed.

    Just for the record, I would like to see all rapists prosecuted, but I would like to be damn careful about who I try to convict. I’d like it to be on actual evidence that can stand up to the light of the noon day sun, if you don’t mind.

    And the victim can bring a civil case if she disagrees with the prosecutor’s discretion.

  186. Anyone is free to boycott the Knicks or boo the player incessantly should they choose, but the notion he should be barred from playing in the NBA without being convicted is nonsensical IMO.

    This is a strawman because nobody ever suggested in any way that Damyean Dotson should be barred from playing in the NBA.

  187. This is a strawman because nobody ever suggested in any way that Damyean Dotson should be barred from playing in the NBA.

    So what was the point…

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