SNY.com: Mike Miller makes first change to longtime rotation at PG spot in Knicks’ loss to Bucks

Sorry for the lack of game thread last night, folks. As you, I am sure, noticed, the site had some issues last night.

Anyhow, I figured we should have a new thread either way, so let’s go with SNY.com’s Coby Green on the inevitable move of Elfrid Payton to the starting lineup:

As the Knicks continue to figure out their point guard rotation this season, Mike Miller made his first adjustment to the starting lineup since taking over as head coach.

Elfrid Payton got the nod at the one spot for the Knicks Saturday night when they faced the Bucks at Madison Square Garden, a spot that for a majority of the season had gone to Frank Ntilikina.

Ironically enough, Payton had actually one the starting spot in training camp to start the season, but got injured just a few games in, leading to Ntilikina being inserted into the lineup thereafter.

In Saturday night’s blowout loss to the Bucks, Payton put up just six points on 3-of-7 shooting in 27 minutes, but that wasn’t the selling point of his night for Miller.

“Well we go back and kind of look and Elfrid had 10 assists and two turnovers,” Miller said at the post game press conference. “And so the one thing we’ve seen him do consistently here as he’s come back from his injury is he’s helping other people, and you have to have that facilitator and that guy that does it, and he’s taken that role and he’s done a very good job with it.”

“We’ll have to take a look and see what is best for out group,” Miller added when asked if Payton will start for the Knicks going forward. “We’re going to look at this film and see where we felt like our strengths were and take a look at it, like we’ve always been doing. But he’s been playing very consistently, he really has.”

Ntilikina went from the starter to fourth in the guard rotation behind Payton, Smith Jr. and Trier.

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175 thoughts to “SNY.com: Mike Miller makes first change to longtime rotation at PG spot in Knicks’ loss to Bucks”

  1. I sometimes wonder if other team sites spend so much time discussing irrelevant lineup choices like we do. Like, do the folks at Wizards blogger spend countless threads discussing whether IT or Ish Smith should start?

  2. Has any team ever intentionally started three middle-age mercenaries of this … ummm … caliber … who signed one-year deals in the previous offseason? Plus a fourth mercenary who signed a two-year deal in the same previous offseason? I think we might be blazing new territory here.

    And I like how the coach made the big change and the changee proceeded, on the first two defensive possessions, to get torched by the other team’s backup point guard for an uncontested layup and then to give up a wide open three to the very same backup point guard. It was Bucks backup point guard 5, Knicks nil in the blink of an eye. And the official scorer must have been in the holiday spirit — or drunk — because there hasn’t been a hollower “10 assist” game in the history of the NBA.

    This team is a million billion miles away — the basketball equivalent of Chernobyl.

  3. How about the smallest of tiniest moves towards structure, make a damn decision if your backup pg is Frank or DSJ and keep the other guy on the bench. My personal favorite in this ocean of suck between these two is Frank, because he shows flashes of bball iq every now and then but I don’t really care, if Miller chooses any of them I’ll be grateful.

  4. Interesting quote from Giannis. He said it took him six years to learn to shoot a three well enough to do it in a game. By that standard, our young guys have a lot of time left.

  5. E, i agree. None of our point guards distinguished themselves last night. In fact, on a plus minus basis Smith has been our best point guard recently, which, unfortunately, isn’t saying much for his results. He does seem to be defending better. This just makes him more interchangeable with the other point guards, but he still can’t shoot and isn’t good.

  6. Interesting graphic last night on MSG during the game:

    Field goal % in rookie season:

    Doncic 42.7%
    Nash 42.3%
    Kobe 41.7%
    Giannis 41.4%
    Dirk 40.5%
    Harden 40.3%
    RJ 38.9%

    Just a little perspective on our 19 year old. Sure, he may end up never improving his shot and being the next Andrew Wiggins, but we all have to be patient with the kid.

  7. Are you saying that since Giannis took six years to learn a three point shot, others should take longer, because he’s obviously such an outlier of talent? If so, the our youngsters should take at least that long, which supports my point.

  8. Yeah, I don’t have a lot of hope for him but I’d rather see DSJ play than Payton. There’s literally zero point to having Elfrid Payton on this roster and honestly, the Messiah complex that’s been built around him by the media and the FO/coaching staff, and factions of the fanbase has crossed the unfortunate line between misguided and pathetic. Nothing against him in a vacuum, but it really doesn’t get much worse or more delusional than pretending your season got irrevocably sidetracked because Elfrid Payton strained a hamstring.

  9. Wait, there’s a messiah complex around Elfrid Payton?

    “We will be a great team once the amazing brilliant point guard Elfrid Payton returns to the lineup”’said nobody ever.

    “We could kinda use a reasonably competent point guard who can do normal point guard stuff and not make a terrified bug-eyed face when he has the ball in his hands” is more of the kind of sentiment I have seen.

  10. Payton is ok backing up an actual point guard (we don’t have one). He’s a 30% 3 ball shooter and a 63% ft shooter over 5.25 full seasons and he’s going to be 26 in 6 weeks. He isn’t getting better at this point.

    KP had 20 month’s to improve he shooting while recuperating where he could do little else and didn’t. He is a wildly inefficient at high volume and is overpaid by a factor of 2 at least.

    [/THREAD]

    I can solve world poverty if someone can give me 15 minutes :-)

  11. There is zero point to having Elfrid on the team? He’s not old by any means and we have a team option for him next year and could probably resign him after that for about what we’re paying now, which is not that much. Of course I would want him ultimately to be our back up PG long term but he’s a competent starter and that means better offense for Mitch and RJ to play in. I like Frank but long term the odds of him being anything more than a bench spot minutes guy is slim and DSJ has shown next to nothing so far.

    People act like if a player isn’t 22 or younger then he can’t be a part of the long term plan. But players don’t immediately fall off the cliff at 30. A mid 20’s player could potentially be on a team for 5 to 7 more years.

  12. no one you can make you feel quite as guilty as a young child…

    so we’re sitting down in our comfy chairs waiting for the food, about halfway through the trailers they’re showing up on the screen, godson looks up at me all serious like: we should have gone to see frozen

    yep, not a word did I have to say…he could pretty quickly figure that he wasn’t into any of the movie trailers they were showing, he probably wasn’t gonna be in to this movie…

    to his credit, he soldiered through it and went to sleep about 45 minutes in…

    couple of notes:
    very cool that you can get a glass of beer in a movie theater now…we’re finally catching up to vincent vega’s world…

    so those of you whom go to shows with kids, you know you’re pretty much guaranteed at least 2 bathroom breaks during the show…the hope being that they don’t come during key parts of the movie…

    I’m thinking I can minimize the effect movie theaters have on a young bladder by ensuring a bathroom visit just prior to leaving the house…we’re like five minutes away from the theater…sure enough I missed the first five, maybe ten minutes of the movie…

    movie wise – i think abraham showed a lot of restraint throughout the movie…keep it simple man, give the people what they want…

    dialogue, special effects, story line were all pretty well measured…the actors all performed excellent, they chose well on the cast…

    sure a lot of it is hokey as can be…but, I’m a sci-fi and fantasy fan – hokey works just fine for me…so yeah, I thought it was a fine send off for this chapter of the story…

    hopefully soon it’s off to knights of the old republic…wouldn’t mind seeing some live action movies involving the clone wars…no character has ever been in such need of a retake as anakin skywalker…hopefully it comes along with ahsoka…those two together make for quite the team…

  13. I’ll never forget hanging out at some bar along the south shore with my cousin, I was still young, maybe 20…he was getting close to 30…not sure what promoted the exchange but told me to hold off on having children as long as I could…’kids are expensive’…that definitely stuck in my head, but, life just led me in a direction away from ever marrying or having children…

    got a buddy here in his 30’s just recently married – try to tell him all the time: enjoy your life with your wife…spoil yourselves and each other…they a got a few dogs and are headed in that direction…

    for some, the best possible situation is you get the opportunity to have kids in your life, that aren’t exactly your kids…but, you still get a chance to interact, learn and grow with them…

    i know just enough about good parenting to know that it’s a lot of work and focus…kudos to those folks whom can manage a partner, children and their own lives…I guess I’ve just been a bit more selfish in some ways…

    point being senor jowles – avoid the kid trap at all costs :)

  14. I have as many illusions about the ease of childraising as I do the competence of James Dolan and Steve Mills.

  15. On Justified Season 3, episode 2. There’s a random marshal talking to Nick Searcy’s character about old US marhals and they wax poetic about Bass Reeves. Say “someone needs to tell that story.” I wonder if Lindelof saw that before he did Watchmen.

  16. Having kids is kind of like starting an amazing but big-ass book. Like, I don’t have time for this. But you enjoy it, you make time, and in the end you’re thankful for being lucky enough for the experience because you don’t feel deserving of how good it feels. Waiting too long for kids- to the point where it becomes harder to have them- is very, very, very hard. Mentally , physically, financially. Everything in life becomes tied to trying for children. Would never tell anyone to wait very long if they knew they were going to start trying.

  17. On Justified Season 3, episode 2. There’s a random marshal talking to Nick Searcy’s character about old US marhals and they wax poetic about Bass Reeves. Say “someone needs to tell that story.” I wonder if Lindelof saw that before he did Watchmen.

    Timeless did a Bass Reeves plot a couple of years ago, too.

  18. What exactly is a hollow assist? And why does Frank never get them?

    Reading that I assumed they were empty because the Knick’s were being slaughtered, so what was the point of them. By that standard Frank gets them too.

  19. My wife and I are expecting our first at the end of March. I’m 42 and she is 34. We tried for awhile before it happened naturally.

    I have no illusions about how hard it’s going to be, especially the first few years, but I’m very excited about it and I was the last person who wanted kids.

  20. thanks wet bandit and swift…just a little worn down at the moment, bunch of to do stuff on a sunday…

    sometimes I’m convinced children do not grow and develop by any natural means…rather it’s some dark art which manifests itself in their ability to drain the life force of those whom have willfully charged themselves to their care…

    yeah, I’m pretty sure that’s what going on at times…his sister has him by about 10 years…I feel like I gotta apologize now to him for getting stuck with older, much less fit and more fragile me…

  21. What exactly is a hollow assist? And why does Frank never get them?

    I get the concept — that an assist is credited for an unremarkable, routine play, like simply passing to a guy who jab steps into a double-teamed hesi pullup jimbo. Any of us could get assists in the NBA by simply passing to a skilled shooter.

    I do not understand the claim to know exactly which players are disadvantaged by this, and the frequency of their “easy” assists. Total eye-test, ex post facto, sophist conjecture.

  22. Breen said sometime maybe 7 minutes into the first quarter that Elf “already had 5 assists” and I said to my buddy, in all seriousness, “Wow, really — I didn’t notice a single one of them.” He nodded.

    Frank and every other player gets them, too, they just happened to be particularly noticeable last night.

    There is an element of uselessness there, too, so it was indeed one of the hollowest “10 assist” games in NBA history. Means less than nothing and anyone who would base even an iota of a personnel decision on it is completely clueless. Payton isn’t “facilitating” jack squat and saying so in the papers makes you sound silly.

    None of this really matters anyway. This team is a million billion miles away from contention and a million billion minus 20 miles away from even relevance. They’re an association-wide laughing stock. The association is outwardly and explicitly and publicly ridiculing the Knicks for FIRING DAVID FIZDALE. They’ll be lucky to hang onto even RJ Barrett and I now put it at less than 50/50 he signs an extension. The best we can hope for is a bunch of blowout losses that washes Mills away, without the young guys looking too bad, and then a miracle that Dolan is able to land a real POBO and stays out of the way. That’s the only scenario that holds out any hope.

  23. And even if Dolan does land a real POBO, they’re at least three drafts away from being any good. With the flattened lottery odds, they may never get good. Hitting on the 4 pick and then trading him for pennies on the dollar set them back years.

    The Rangers broke everything down about halfway through the 2017-18 season made some really good trades of veterans for prospects, hit the number 2 pick in the lottery this year, signed the best free agent on the market this year who’s burning it up, and they’re still 9 points out of a playoff berth, ahead of only four teams in the Eastern Conference. The rebuild has gone about as well as possible, and they’re at least three years away from serious contention, which would be five years after the breakdown. They may never get there, either. The 7 overall pick in the 2017 draft has been a bust and just got put on the shelf until they trade him for peanuts.

    The problem is that all the time you’re “rebuilding,” the other teams are drafting and trying to get better too. You have to outperform them dramatically just to catch up. The baseline scenario is that it doesn’t happen.

  24. I swear to God if the Giants win this game and don’t fire everyone from Gettelman to the bathroom attendant I’m done with this team forever.

  25. I swear to God if the Giants win this game and don’t fire everyone from Gettelman to the bathroom attendant I’m done with this team forever.

    It could be such a perfect day if the Giants can steal defeat from the jaws of victory. D Jones comes back with a bang. Barkley looks all world again and losing virtually delivers Chase Young…..

    If they win D Jones gets terrorized by this monster 3 times a year a la LT and Joe Theismann…..

    So much ridding on this shitty defense…. please play to form…….

  26. I swear to God if the Giants win this game and don’t fire everyone from Gettelman to the bathroom attendant I’m done with this team forever.

    It really is maddening.

  27. Throw a pick 6 daniel Jones if you know what is good for you…….

    Obviously not but it’s an organizational mistske not to decide to use at least half the game checking out some younger players, resting Barkley, etc.

    I’ve tried to be open minded about Gettelman but it’s hard to defend how wasteful he is. This team needs help everywhere you can’t afford to throw away 3rd round picks every year and blow draft position like this.

    Hopefully the Skins will bail us out.

  28. lol the Giants are going to drop from #2 to #6 in the draft for a meaningless win against a divisional opponent that stands to win that #2 position if they lose? They’re definitely gonna win

  29. Sorry bob, I was reading backwards, didn’t see your first post, assumed you were chiding me for wanting to tank.

  30. What exactly is a hollow assist?

    A bunch of hollow assed assists are when you are 1-4 from the field, 1 for 2 from the line, the Bucks back up starter is torching you all over the floor your team is -17 and out of the game 7 minutes into it at home…….

    Now…. is Payton a better pg today for the Knicks…. well if winning 26 games got you some sort of benefit certainly! Payton will be 26 in 6 weeks and is 4.4 years older than Frank. Payton isn’t getting significantly better and is a marginal back-up. Period. Frank may never be a marginal NBA player, but he is a better bet/investment than Payton ever if it means jamming Frank’s square 2-guard personality into a round PG hole.

    They should do precisely what the Rangers did…. sell off Morris and Randle if possible and play Knox (who is actually showing some faint signs of life) at the 4 along side Mitch and Barrett with a 5 man guard rotation of Payton, DSJr, Frank, Dotson and Trier. If there is a #2 available for Portis or Payton….. bye bye!

  31. Thank you for that shove, Ballantine! I don’t think he did it on purpose, but wow, the game would have been over if he didn’t just shove him for no reason. The pass was way away from the receiver.

  32. I guess I’m happy the Jets won, but they probably now drop several spots in the draft and for sure now have no chance for the top 3-4 OT prospects in the draft.

  33. Oh man, is he seriously going to kick a 62-yard FG for the win? Is this Maurice Ndour Redux?

  34. The existential hell of being a Giants and Knicks fan.

    Substitute Lions for Giants ….. One playoff win in 62 years will knock all the “sports are cyclical” out of you right fast.

  35. The good news is I won’t ever have to watch Chase Young terrorize these guys bc I’m done with this team.

  36. You can’t put this on the players and Shurmur is likely to get fired, but having your starters especially Barkley in there is a travesty and of course a huge set back
    This should have been planned for in advance of this game.

  37. Absolutely, Bo. This is an organizational blunder that Gettelman should be held accountable for.

  38. The Raiders traded Khalil Mack away for a first round pick and a pick swap. They then sucked and almost tanked their way to the #2 pick and Nick Bosa, who would not have been a bad replacement for Mack. But no! They won some meaningless games late in the season. Still picked #4 though, and when it was their turn another impact pass rusher was on the board, Josh Allen! So all good. But no! They drafted Clelin “Nowhere Near As Good As Khalil Mack, Nick Bosa or Josh Allen” Ferrell instead.

    Bosa and Allen are two of the best rookies in the league. Ferrell isn’t even the best rookie defensive lineman on the Raiders.

  39. Porzingis 5-15 today vs Toronto.

    But man, when he gets into shape, watch out!

    (Oh and the Mavs were up 85-55…and lost)

  40. The idea that players never improve on aspects of their game after 25 is another logical fallacy that is repeated often but is far from true.

    BPM has 27 as the peak, according to this study. But who exactly are you responding to?

    http://harvardsportsanalysis.org/2015/05/player-progression-in-the-nba/

    If you’re talking about Porzingis, you need to look at that trend line and then look at his seasonal BPM totals. Who cares if he peaks at 28 if his peak is as a ~2.0 BPM player?

    0.2
    0.2
    -0.7
    -1.1

    The question is not whether Porzingis can improve. It’s whether he can turn that flat BPM line into a curve.

  41. The idea that players never improve on aspects of their game after 25 is another logical fallacy that is repeated often but is far from true.

    No one said it is impossible to improve after 25, Brook Lopez added a 3 ball well after 25.

    But this guy has been UNSUCCESSFULLY trying to improve his shooting from deep and from the FT line and in his 6th year and after 10,000 minutes to expect him to get to league average in either area is just plainly wishcasting…… Show me the positive trend in his shooting in 6 years…. and its not like he hasn’t had chances:

  42. @74

    Not really, what people say is that it is more unlikely that a player who hasn’t shown much improvement at the age of 25, when some of those guys have been playing organized basketball for a decade and are generally already in their second contract in the league, will suddenly start developing out of nowhere.

    It’s not impossible, we’ve seen plenty of cases of players making jumps around this age or even older. It’s just less likely to happen, so it’s not something you can really count on. You can generally count on a promising 19 year old being better at age 24 than he is at 19; the same can’t really be said about a guy who hasn’t shown much at age 24 for his next 5 years.

  43. 19 points on 15 shots, 12 boards, 3 blocks, plus-13 on the road against the defending champs isn’t really that bad a game.

  44. 19 points on 15 shots, 12 boards, 3 blocks, plus-13 on the road against the defending champs isn’t really that bad a game.

    Defending champs minus Kawhi and Siakam, but whatever

  45. Sure, if you forget that you still use possessions on free throw attempts.

    That’s a TS% of .501, worse than the league’s worst offense, our beloved Knicks (.520).

  46. Yeah, wa going to say the same thing about FTs. This KP argument will go on a long time. I know what superstar numbers look like and when KP puts them up on his max contract I will be happy to admit. But it’s not happening yet.

    Who the hell is Chris Boucher and why was he tearing up the Mavs?

  47. Who the hell is Chris Boucher and why was he tearing up the Mavs?

    He’s reason #510506 why the Knicks need to somehow lure Masai Ujiri here.

  48. The Milwaukee Bucks beat the 20-9 Indiana Pacers (now 20-10) by 28 points today, and the league MVP only plays 31 minutes a game.

    2015, Steve Kerr chose Golden State and the rest is history.

    2018, Mike Budenholzer chose Milwaukee and now they’re the best team in the NBA.

    I really hope we get the coaching hire right this spring, but something tells me the guy we all want is going to end up coaching Philadelphia.

  49. Boucher was the best player in the G-League last season, iirc he was MVP and DPOY in the same season… fuck we need Masai.

  50. Breen said sometime maybe 7 minutes into the first quarter that Elf “already had 5 assists” and I said to my buddy, in all seriousness, “Wow, really — I didn’t notice a single one of them.” He nodded.

    Seems more an indictment of your eye test, but it’s still doubles the number of assists Frank can ever be expected to produce.

    My guess is that E’s formula is Payton asts – Frank asts = Payton hollow asts.

    It’s absolutely stunning the mental gymnastics it takes to put down every decent performance by a non-Frank PG.

  51. Payton assisted on 3 dunks/layups in the first quarter and 2 threes. So that’s 5 legit assists. Notably 3 assists went to RJ. Playing Frank actively harms our other young players because he can’t get them easy baskets.

    Frank has yet to notch a single 10 assist game this year.

  52. Also, for the love of God, please stop citing single game +/- like it means anything.

    Does 3 ball shooting and ft shooting percentage as a predictor of future shooting% from distance mean anything for a guy 10 days shy of his 26th birthday after 5.25 seasons and after 10,000 NBA minutes?

    I mean shooting is a fairly important skill for a perimeter player, No? This is the argument (that playing Payton big minutes) is a wasted opportunity cost, not that he isn’t marginally better as an all-around point guard today.

    The Frankophiles aren’t arguing that Payton isn’t a somewhat better PG today, rather that in a 60+ loss team they would rather see Frank on the floor at the 2 (primarily, with some back-up point minutes) than investing minutes in a player that has literally zero upside who can be found every off season for 4-6 million per year as an UFA.

    The notion of “developing” a 26yr old seasoned PG with a career WS/48 = ,063 when you have 2, 21 yr olds in the backcourt on a 60 loss team is as Knicksian as you can get.

  53. Seems to me the only real flaw elf has is his shooting which he could still improve even at his age.

    But for me it isn’t about choosing to develop elf over frank. It’s that choosing to develop frank at all costs might be actively hurting the development of RJ and Mitch, who are way more likely to be good players than Frank. Elf is a better PG and we need a decent pg to run the offense and help RJ and Mitch develop.

    I see a lot of trying to hit home runs when it comes to filling out the roster. I’m a simpleton when it comes to this stuff in a lot of ways. Elf is better than Frank and Frank has been given a lot of minutes too. It’s not like he’s a rookie. I’m not advocating for elf to be our long term PG going forward just that he should be the PG until an opportunity to upgrade comes along…maybe in next years draft for example. And he could still be our back up PG cause it’s not like he’s costing us a lot of money and would be impossible to move later. But he’s a better PG and that’s better for his teammates including our other young players.

  54. We shouldn’t play Frank just for development purposes. He needs some playing time, but he gets enough even with Payton starting. And I don’t agree with the following:

    who can be found every off season for 4-6 million per year as an UFA.

    I remember the last time we tried to just hire a point guard. We got Alexey Shved. And another time when we needed a point guard we traded good assets for Felton, who was probably not much better than Peyton is now. So we did well to get Peyton as a free agent and shouldn’t assume we can repeat that anytime.

  55. Seems to me the only real flaw elf has is his shooting which he could still improve even at his age.

    Shooting is sort of a fundamental skill in the game of basketball.

    This is sort of like saying Shakespeare’s only real flaw was he was a less than middling writer.

    Putting the ball in the basket at some reasonable rate from the perimeter is sort of essential for a perimeter player. The need to be defended is important to floor spacing etc.

    Now Frank is only a marginally better perimeter shooter than Payton, but I would wager significantly that 2 years from now the gap will widen significantly.

    Frank is not a rookie technically but he should still be in college. In 2.4 seasons in the league he: missed the Summer League his first year and all summer with injuries from the Euroleague. He missed virtually all of last season with various groin and shoulder injuries. He has endured 5 different coaches and two regimes that insist on playing him out of position.

    Guys like Payton are virtually a dime a dozen every summer.

    Guys who are very good instinctual defenders at 21 and whose arm are 8 inches longer than his height are not. I prefer trying to develop player B.

    But no one hear claims Frank is a better PG today. However the marginal win(s) gained costs you KAT vs KP and Steph Curry vs Jordan Hill.

  56. I don’t even care for Payton, honestly. He’s clearly better than Ntilikina or DSJ so if the intention is to win games, he should be playing. I don’t think the Knicks should be trying too hard to win games, as a guaranteed top 5 pick is still the best possible scenario out of a lost season, but still. If you think Frank should play more because he’s younger, I’m not contesting that, it’s a fine line of thinking. If you think Frank should be playing more because he contributes more to winning, then I think you’re just wrong.

  57. If you think Frank should be playing more because he contributes more to winning, then I think you’re just wrong.

    I don’t know how many ways there are to say that today Payton is a better PG than Frank…..

    But there isn’t a single good reason to be investing in Payton going forward. The difference between winning 19 games vs 15 is a BAD thing.

    MR and Barrett will only be helped when and actual PG arrives on the scene and Payton ain’t it. He’s only coming via an overpay as a UFA or by getting more ping pong balls and more picks and better management.

    I don’t see much future in DSJr without a complete overhaul and Frank is only masquerading as a PG due to gross incompetence. I’d rather give DSJr the “Mudiay” treatment than play Payton 32 minutes at PG…. what exactly is the point? Frank should be playing 20ish MPG at the two with some back up point.

  58. I agree with you, I think Payton is what he is, an adequate backup for a good team or a low end starter for a team that’s already good everywhere else. He’s not the long term solution we’ve needed for decades now, and since most of the league is stacked with PGs that are either better or more promising than him, he should also not have much trade value. I think the best case scenario is that he’s packaged as a somewhat decent asset in a bigger trade involving Morris or Randle, but I don’t see much else to be excited about.

    I’m more replying to the people who seem to think Frank is the better choice right now for basketball reasons, which as you say, is not true.

  59. Papa John’s vs. Little Caesar’s for best slice

    300 post thread featuring scurrilous arguments and personal insults

    …go

  60. There’s no point to having Elf on this roster. Wasting a single brain cell over him and his “attributes” relative to the two way younger guys, one of whom is an elite defender already, is pointless. It was a terrible roster move, a terrible fit, terrible in every important medium and long-term factor.

  61. The only sensible move at this point is to sell off all of the mercenaries, play and develop the young guys, lose a bunch of games, get another top 5 (or higher if you get lucky) draft pick, clean out Mills, and keep the rebuild going from the near rock bottom (but not entirely lacking in promising young assets) in which you find yourself. Trying to put this clownshoes Band-Aid over it was stupid beyond words.

    Maybe — maybe — you hang onto Randle and demand that he play the right way since he’s signed for the extra year and still not quite middle-aged. And then if he balks or continues to do his bullshit isos, sell him too. Other than that, get rid of all of them.

  62. quite frankly… the folks who still think frank has a future in this league while elf doesn’t… don’t have a lot of credibility here…. playing payton actually has some implications for the future because he’s still gonna be in the nba throughout his 20s….

    are frank’s most ardent supporters still think his upside is a good 8th man on a good team? what exactly is frank’s upside that makes it worth investing even more time than he’s already gotten?

  63. His shooting form and defense are way better than Payton’s as is his basketball IQ. And far more general upside given his age. His lineup data with the floor spacers is actually pretty good.

    Assuming he’s going to be in the league at 29 — I wouldn’t assume that — Payton isn’t going to be with the Knicks until then and (hopefully) not even after this year. He’s as irrelevant as Bobby Portis or Wayne Ellington. He’s only here because of politics and stupidity and his alleged virtues are only pointed to because of politics and incompetence.

  64. 1. Payton is the best PG on the team, should start, and should probably be kept around next year unless we have a better idea. He has to improve his shot. That may be less likely than say Frank or DSJ because he’s older, but his career has repeatedly been interrupted by injury and it’s worth seeing more unless we can do better or Frank puts it all together next year.

    2. DSJ is the player that should be moved even though he may have most natural physical talent of the three. He’s a low basketball IQ player that sulks when things are going poorly, has a back issue, and is a negative on both sides at this stage. I’d way rather keep a player like Frank that’s already a plus on one side and needs to develop the other side to “average” to become a net plus player than a player that’s a negative on both sides with a questionable IQ. But to be honest, since I like Frank, for his own sake I hope he gets traded to a good organization where he’ll be used and developed properly.

    3. Quoting stats that are horrible at valuing players is not the way to make a good case against KP even if it makes you feel better about being the franchise that was dumb enough to trade him for a busted PG, wasted cap space, and future 1st round picks that will net us good role players in 2025.

    Knicks fans are laughable. It’s no wonder we are such a joke around the NBA.

    KP is doing an excellent job carrying Dallas without Doncic even though he’s still on a minutes restriction and less than 100% physically/basketball wise. He’s just starting to go the rim hard and finish without fear of re-injuring the knee from the contact. They are literally doing cartwheels in Dallas over his two way impact on the games at this early stage in his recovery, including in the loss yesterday.

  65. 3. Quoting stats that are horrible at valuing players is not the way to make a good case against KP even if it makes you feel better about being the franchise that was dumb enough to trade him for a busted PG, wasted cap space, and future 1st round picks that will net us good role players in 2025.

    If you think that TS% is “horrible,” you really have no idea what you’re talking about.

    Knicks fans are laughable. It’s no wonder we are such a joke around the NBA.

    Wait, the fans are laughable? The Knicks are a joke because of the fans?

    You advocate for paying $32M AAV for an oft-injured player who has been incapable of scoring anywhere close to max-player levels. But he scores points so you think he’s good on offense. Do you realize the irony in this post? Do you realize how totally fucking disconnected from a basic, virtually unimpeachable basketball concept you are?

  66. KP is doing an excellent job carrying Dallas

    How the fuck can anyone look at their last five games (2-3) and think that Porzingis, of all of their players, is carrying them?

    Dude shot 5-15 with 0 assists and you think he’s carrying them? That is so fucking funny.

  67. If anything Hardaway and Curry have also been the reason they won some of those games. They lost a 30 point lead to a Toronto team without 3 starters and with VanVleet shooting 2-13 for the game. At this point strat is literally not able to see logic about this and any argument is futile.

  68. If anything Hardaway and Curry have also been the reason they won some of those games.

    I was going to say this. Dallas’s supporting cast has been excellent. No true superstars but lots of valuable pieces that have been shooting at an excellent clip.

    Reminds me of the TMac/Yao Rockets. The superstars would go down every year like clockwork, but the other guys could still hold their own.

  69. Consider how good the rest of the Mavs have to be to put up one of the greatest ORtgs since the merger and have their #2 volume scorer among the worst-efficiency scorers in the league.

  70. we really should have signed seth curry back when we all said we should sign seth curry. He’s not his brother but he’s a nice player.

  71. So again, what value does putting down Payton have? Calling his assists hollow is wrong, and somehow supposed to boost Frank’s value????

    Payton isn’t an existential threat to Frank, nor is DSJR. So how come anytime either puts up good numbers do we start seeing posts on how they actually played bad games? DSJR plays one decent game against Boston and people start calling that game hollow. Payton puts up 10 assists in a game that no one is particularly impressed with, E starts calling them hollow assists.

    You’re not helping Frank’s case by crapping on these performances. Both would be career bests for Frank.

    It’s fine if you genuinely think Frank will be excellent some day, but inventing flaws in our other PGs doesn’t help make the case.

  72. I have to admit I am impressed by Porzingis’ strong rebounding numbers. I don’t know if they’re sustainable, but if they are it’s a good sign for him.

    It’s worth pointing out that the Mavs are using him perfectly and his shooting numbers are still bad. So it’s not an issue of deployment. The guy is an inefficient chucker. But an inefficient chucker who can rebound and protect the rim is still a decent player.

    None of that means we shouldn’t have traded him. He’s a decent player worth half of what he’s getting paid, and overpaying decent players like Kristaps Porzingis and Tim Hardaway is not how you rebuild a team. Trading him for future value was the right move, no matter how many times E and Strat try to will their narrative into existence by repeating it ad nauseum.

  73. KP is doing an excellent job carrying Dallas without Doncic even though he’s still on a minutes restriction and less than 100% physically/basketball wise. He’s just starting to go the rim hard and finish without fear of re-injuring the knee from the contact. They are literally doing cartwheels in Dallas over his two way impact on the games at this early stage in his recovery, including in the loss yesterday.

    There are no true statements in this entire paragraph!!! You would need like 8 citations to back up this bullshit. Let’s just break down how many parts of this paragraph are conjecture and likely false:

    “KP is doing an excellent job carrying Dallas”

    “he’s still on a minutes restriction”

    “[He is] less than 100% physically/basketball wise”

    “He’s just starting to go the rim hard”

    “[He’s been playing with] fear of re-injuring the knee from the contact”

    “They are literally doing cartwheels in Dallas”

    “[He’s having] two way impact on the games”

    “[He’s still in the] early stage in his recovery”

    This is some epic bullshit.

  74. Remember when Gordon Hayward broke his leg so catastrophically that it made hundreds, no, thousands of people vomit simultaneously, and 14 months later he was putting up 35 points on 17 true shot attempts?

    Yeah, Porzingis is at the 22 month mark. If this is “early stage in his recovery,” I’m guessing that full recovery will be by 2027. Or we can just use his ACL tear to explain why he can’t make set-shot threes with a reasonable rate of success.

  75. Meanwhile, Shay-Gilgeous put up 32 last night against the Clips.

    I sometimes dream about us having Mitchell and Alexander instead of Frank and Kevin.

    And Jazz and Thunder fans have nightmares about picking Ntilikina and Knox.

  76. I’m guessing that full recovery will be by 2027

    And then we’re really going to have egg on our faces because, according to the Strat doctrine, by that time the two picks we got for him will be out of the league because they were in the high 20s and we used them on untalented 19 year old role players.

  77. Just wanted to point out that Porzingis is 57th in the entire NBA in minutes per game, averaging 1 minute less than Doncic and more than guys like Jokic, Horford, Giannis, Conley, Love, Sexton, Embiid, Isaac, Dinwiddie, Fournier etc etc.

    Why do we still bother to respond to someone who literally cannot care less about anything factual?

  78. Strat’s KP defenses have devolved into Fox and Friends level nonsense. As Hubert and others have pointed out, he’s now basically saying up is down and left is right. Like the real Fox and Friends/conservative commentariat, it’s actually more difficult to respond to than regular old bad opinions because the only real response is “are we living in the same reality?”

    I can’t fathom being a Knicks fan, seeing we passed up on a max contract for an objectively injury prone, inefficient volume scorer in favor picks for once in our god damn existence, and thinking that was a big mistake.

    What’s the O/U for how long Porzingis will be “shaking off the rust” or whatever? I’m saying midway through the 2022-2023 season.

  79. As for Payton vs Frank, I’m not seeing the contradiction. They do not play the same position. Frank Ntilikina is currently 84th in the NBA in AST% (300 minute minimum) despite playing 97% of his minutes this year at point guard per BRef. He is screaming at the top of his lungs via his play that he is not a point guard, and probably not much of an NBA player in general but definitely not a point guard.

    The problem the Frankohphiles have shouldn’t be with Payton or DSJ, it should be with the Knicks blatantly playing Ntilikina out of position. If I was extremely dedicated to the idea that Frank Ntilikina would be tearing up the league but for the moronic Knicks not recognizing his latent power (I’m not), that’s what I would be pushing.

    And yes, we should have signed Shamorie Ponds or some other younger, more cost-controlled point guard than Payton. Win curve, marginal wins, we get the whole ordeal. A lot of us have been banging that drum for years now, so it’s interesting that some posters have only come to it in the context of Elfrid Payton, who is one of the more tolerable mid-level free agent signings this team has made in the past 5-10 years.

    Now, with the new lottery odds and the reasonable idea that it’s good for Mitch and co. to play with an actual point guard, I ain’t gonna go crazy over the presence of Payton on this roster. I consider it, like, the 150th grievance on my list.

    He’s 25, so if you spend a lot of time arguing that 24 year old Kristaps Porzingis is inevitably going to make the enormous improvements he needs to make in order to justify his contract, it’s a little weird to take an “end of history” approach with Payton.

  80. Payton isn’t an existential threat to Frank, nor is DSJR.

    the only thing keeping frank off the court – is frank…

    i get the 2 guard talk, but, the kid’s been playing point his whole life, or, at least a large majority of it…

    sometimes college quarterback’s become receivers…and, basketball is a whole lot a blurrier situation position wise…not sure another shooting guard that can’t really shoot will help the knicks though…

    I don’t know, lord knows i way over analyze anything knick related, but, i’m really liking mike miller so far…

    good to see he pulled the cord on frank (and, i do love me some frank) and stuck elf in to the starting five – because, hello – he makes the game a whole lot easier on his mostly hapless teammates…glad trier is getting some run…looks like he’s inching mitch closer to the starting five…

    i really like his use of timeouts – defend you motherfuckers, guard somebody god dammit…he seems in control of the game – even the last two games when we were incredibly over matched…his rotations aren’t egregious…particularly considering the roster he has to work with…

    i like his eyes, steady, focused, calculated…i don’t know, probably all horse shit and i’m just grabbing for any rope i can find; but, seems like miller is doing okay…and, thank goodness fiz is gone…

  81. wow, so just read the reviews on star wars, most not so favorable…looks like my thoughts on the film were a little different from most critics – it worked for me and a liked it a lot…anybody get a chance to check it out?

  82. wow, so just read the reviews on star wars, most not so favorable…looks like my thoughts on the film were a little different from most critics – it worked for me and a liked it a lot…anybody get a chance to check it out?

    I went in with extremely low expectations due to the reviews, so I was mostly satisfied when I came out. It works if you accept it for exactly what it is at the outset–pure fan service that does not try to push any boundaries whatsoever. It’s a fun movie, but no one is going to be blown away.

    How people feel about it tends to track pretty well with how they felt about The Last Jedi. If you hated TLJ because you thought the ways it went off-script so to speak were heretical, you probably like TROS. If you loved TLJ precisely because it subverted expectations, you probably hate TROS.

    Personally, I felt like the only person in the world with very mixed feelings about TLJ. I definitely appreciated the ways Rian Johnson tried to keep people on their toes, but I also felt like so many of them missed the mark and lead to arduous, unfulfilling subplots.

  83. Personally, I would like to see a point guard in a Knicks uniform that can shoot, dribble, and pass. If he sucks on D, whatever.

  84. good point TNFH on the comparison to TLJ, which, i did not care for…it’s gonna be running on TNT next week, so, i’ll try to re-watch it and give it another try…i honestly can’t remember much of what took place in that movie…other than being thrown off a bit with the astral projections (which worked better for me in TROS) and other stuff…i was okay with the force awakens – wasn’t that crazy about some of the “campiness” injected in to it though…still haven’t seen the solo movie…

    rogue one definitely hit the mark for me…and, TROS worked for me too…

    still haven’t taken the time to check out the mandalorian…i’ve heard good things about it…looks like they got one more show to go for season 1…clone wars part II will also be out in another month or so, need to finish up on the last few episodes of season 6…

    for some reason the not so favorable perspective of the jedi works for me…not that i’m all in on the sith stuff…what we’ve seen of the jedi mostly over the story arc has been of them being pompous and incompetent…hell, they let themselves get wiped out…

  85. The problem with The Last Jedi, to me at least, wasn’t with the curveball choices Rian made about Luke and The Force and all of that. I thought the Kylo/Rey storyline was good and interesting. The problem was that there were two undercooked subplots that ate a lot of time: the “Is Holdo a traitor, oh no she isn’t never mind” plotline and the utterly useless shaggy dog story with Finn and Rose or whatever.

  86. Draft people, is there some obvious reason I’m missing as to why Tyrese Haliburton isn’t considered by far the best point guard prospect in this draft?

    I get that he’s a little older than the other guys, and there are questions about his jump shot despite his sky high 3PT% (and yes as a Knicks fan this makes me cringe just as much as the next guy), but he’s literally the only prospect I see right now with numbers befitting of top status.

  87. I’ve been underwhelmed the few times I’ve checked the top prospects. Would not surprise me if accidentally winning too many games forced us to choose a better prospect. I don’t recommend it, but would not be surprised.

  88. still haven’t taken the time to check out the mandalorian…i’ve heard good things about it…looks like they got one more show to go for season 1…clone wars part II will also be out in another month or so, need to finish up on the last few episodes of season 6…

    Outside of some slow filler episodes, I’ve really liked it.

  89. SPOILERS FOR STAR WARS BELOW:

    wow, so just read the reviews on star wars, most not so favorable…looks like my thoughts on the film were a little different from most critics – it worked for me and a liked it a lot…anybody get a chance to check it out?

    Funny you mention this, geo. I saw it over the weekend but before I did I spent some time digging online. I’m not the kind of person who avoids spoilers. I want to know exactly what’s going to happen before I watch. And I really wanted to know how the heck Palpatine came back. I soon discovered that there has been a two year online war about the Last Jedi and I went down a rabbit hole of ridiculousness.

    Anyway…. I really enjoyed the movie by itself. But as it related to the whole trilogy, it was kind of terrible. It ended up making the trilogy an incoherent mess. Apparently that two-year online war I read about impacted Abrams and that’s why he spent the whole movie dissing the previous one.

    Having said that, I did really enjoy the theme of Poe trying to figure out how everyone else got it done only to be told by Lando that they were just winging it and got by because they had each other’s backs. But they really betrayed the previous movie and ended up making the whole trilogy seem unnecessary.

  90. I’ve enjoyed the Mandalorian. I don’t mind the filler episodes at all. They tell decent one off stories. The one offs are rehashes of well traveled stories but the execution is good for most of them.

  91. swiftandabundant: The idea that players never improve on aspects of their game after 25 is another logical fallacy that is repeated often but is far from true.

    I don’t think anyone thinks this. I think the idea is that people are as likely to get worse as to get better starting around age 25 or 26. It’s all about playing the odds. Well run teams sometimes fail because the reality doesn’t always follow the most likely path, but all you can do is optimize your choices and hope you don’t get screwed.

    AFA 25 year olds on rebuilding teams, it’s one thing if you have your special project 25 year old who you as GM think is in the 5% or whatever most likely to improve 25 year olds, fine, but I think because the question is so open-ended, it’s easy to let your fandom-driven imagination inflate the reasons why a 25 YO on your team is specially qualified to improve while minimizing the reasons against.

    It’s also just hard generally harder to win in free agency than in the draft because you’re competing with 29 other teams to offer the most appealing contract whereas draft picks are stuck playing for you and usually locked in on salary.

    So even if this 25 year old has some upside, the odds that you outdo 29 other ~billion dollar teams in terms of evaluating this free agent by a significant margin seem low to me. It’s probably your hubris that’s driving you, as a GM, to think you can outsmart other teams that badly at something so simple and straightforward as free agency.

  92. I soon discovered that there has been a two year online war about the Last Jedi and I went down a rabbit hole of ridiculousness. Somehow, someway, The Last Jedi got wrapped up in the nation’s binary political discourse and became yet another battleground for left vs right. Amazing.

    I found this discourse very annoying, because my political leanings are hardly a mystery to any of you at this point but I still didn’t love TLJ. I was homeless in the TLJ wars.

    And yes, Abrams’ approach was to basically blast TLJ out of existence. I found that to be heavy-handed and unnecessary. Despite my misgivings I thought there was plenty of redeemable stuff to work with from TLJ.

    SPOILERS BELOW

    For example, I really liked the idea of Rey’s parentage being irrelevant. I liked the idea of Kylo becoming the unambiguous leader of the First Order/Sith/bad guys. I wasn’t sure how I felt about the idea that the rest of the galaxy had given up on the resistance, but I definitely didn’t think an unexplained do over on that idea was the way to go.

  93. Personally, I would like to see a point guard in a Knicks uniform that can shoot, dribble, and pass. If he sucks on D, whatever.

    I detest players who are shitty on D and don’t want them on my team, particularly if they play guard. Guess that’s the unbridgeable philosophical divide.

  94. The problem was that there were two undercooked subplots that ate a lot of time: the “Is Holdo a traitor, oh no she isn’t never mind” plotline and the utterly useless shaggy dog story with Finn and Rose or whatever.

    I guess I’m a TLJ fan because I saw those as purposefully subversive. I enjoyed the creative way that film played on my expectations that Poe and Finn were going to be the heroes only to find out it was Holdo all along.

    They were way too heavy handed with the feminine v masculine aspect of that subplot, though. And they made Holdo seem craven until the reveal, which was manipulative.

  95. The problem was that there were two undercooked subplots that ate a lot of time: the “Is Holdo a traitor, oh no she isn’t never mind” plotline and the utterly useless shaggy dog story with Finn and Rose or whatever.

    oh that made me laugh jk, I literally don’t remember any of that shit…like you say, undercooked and irrelevant…

  96. I found this discourse very annoying

    I edited the left v right bit out of my original post so your quote of me may seem confusing to others. Suffice to say I was amazed by the rage that movie inspired.

  97. Suffice to say I was amazed by the rage that movie inspired.

    Hell hath no fury like an incel fanboi spurned

  98. I guess I’m a TLJ fan because I saw those as purposefully subversive. I enjoyed the creative way that film played on my expectations that the Poe and Finn were going to be the heroes only to find out it was Holdo all along.

    i’m going to give it another try…hell, if i can learn to live with jar jar binks, i should be able to look past certain aspects of the movie and try to enjoy it on a different level…

    one thing that did not disappoint in regards to this trilogy was the performances of ridley and driver throughout…i thought they both did a great job…

  99. I’ve enjoyed each of the last two Star Wars movies, but I’ve also taken drinks to them. I think having a few drinks in you makes the series more enjoyable because you don’t have to worry about the plots and characters and can focus more on the “wow, lasers” aspects of it all.

    I think I saw it on twitter, but someone pointed out that Star Wars is ultimately a children’s fantasy movie, it’s not really meant for adults to enjoy. Everyone just grew up with Star Wars and our nostalgia places an unfair burden on the series. Anytime I’ve run into the rare adult who did not watch the series growing up (usually foreigners), they did not enjoy any of the original movies and prefer the new series because the special effects are better.

  100. I’ve enjoyed the Mandalorian. I don’t mind the filler episodes at all. They tell decent one off stories. The one offs are rehashes of well traveled stories but the execution is good for most of them.

    oh no…now you got me feeling like i’m missing something :)

    I think I saw it on twitter, but someone pointed out that Star Wars is ultimately a children’s fantasy movie, it’s not really meant for adults to enjoy. Everyone just grew up with Star Wars and our nostalgia places an unfair burden on the series. Anytime I’ve run into the rare adult who did not watch the series growing up (usually foreigners), they did not enjoy any of the original movies and prefer the new series because the special effects are better.

    that’s a good point…have you ever made it through the Clone Wars early bird?

    i tried Rebels…loved the animation, but, didn’t really enjoy the show that much, i did like some of the episodes…visually there were parts that were absolutely stunning…this one episode where they meet up with rex on this dune-like planet was absolutely incredible…

    soon as they started offing people in the clone wars i was like – yeah, this’ll work…

  101. Hell hath no fury like an incel fanboi spurned

    Thanks, Jowles. I could have gone my whole life without knowing what an incel is. And then you write this and I googled it.

    I gotta say, there is so much of the world I am blissfully ignorant of, and I think I owe it all to never ever being on reddit.

  102. I detest players who are shitty on D and don’t want them on my team, particularly if they play guard. Guess that’s the unbridgeable philosophical divide.

    Yup. I’m sure that if we had Trae Young on our team, you’d be arguing that we should bench him because he was getting in the way of Frank reaching his potential.

  103. right now i have killian hayes as the top pg… but tyrese halliburton is up there too…. there are major questions about his shot and his dribble drive game…. which is the reason why he isn’t a slam dunk prospect despite the #s… but the #s are impressive…

    he is a bit like lonzo ball…. who also had stellar #s but kind of hacked his way to a really good 2p % by limiting himself to transition and easy assisted opportunities near the basket… he shot well from 3 to mask his deficiencies there…. haliburton’s similar but he’s not as hopeless as lonzo was going to the basket in the halfcourt…. his floater game is ok…. and he needs that to develop more if he’s to survive because shooting 40% from 3 in college means jack shit and he’s not doing that quality of a shooter ….

    if his shot needs to change… then you’re looking at a very long development curve… just look at fultz… ball… and dsj…. it’s a worthy gamble in the mid lotto since the upside is pretty high and the other prospects have much bigger question marks….

  104. by any chance – is there a distinguishing factor between being an incel, and, just slightly off your game and a bit unlucky in love at the moment :(

    I’m so tired of being alone,
    I’m so tired of on my own

    oh well…at least i have you all :)

  105. I gotta say, there is so much of the world I am blissfully ignorant of, and I think I owe it all to never ever being on reddit.

    Reddit is only as good or bad as the sub-forum’s members. For example: r/politics is largely reputable news sources with an intensely-left bias in the comments; r/conservative is hilariously stupid Boomer memes and a frightening lack of constructive discourse; and r/neutralpolitics is probably the best online forum I’ve read for learning about and debating issues of the day.

    More good ones: r/AskHistorians, r/DIY, r/personalfinance and r/financialindependence.

  106. I have not seen the clone wars. I have a roommate out in Colorado who has been watching through it in preparation for Skywalker. He seems to like them just fine. I’m sure I’ll check them out eventually

    There was another Clone Wars animated anthology (was not CGI) made by Genndy Tartakovsky (probably butchered the name) who is an animator with a reputation for making effective use of minimalist story telling and animation. He also made Samurai Jack which is fairly similar stylistically. I remember those being excellent. However, I don’t think they’re on Disney Plus. Not sure why, but they may have originally aired on Cartoon Network, so there may be some licensing shenanigans going on.

    If I have praise for the one off episodes, it’s partly derived from remembering the Tartakovsky animated Clone Wars for having a similar story-telling style. I think my brother has them on DVD at my parents house somewhere, maybe I’ll try and dig them up while I’m here for the holidays.

    One of the Mandalorian one-offs is clearly derived from 7 Samurai, another is a heist, and then one seems maybe derived from a cowboy movie I haven’t seen or perhaps very loosely based on The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (mostly from having multiple bounty hunters and the series as a whole taking notes from it, specifically Mando’s theme song). Again, nothing sensational, but there’s a reason those are standard movie plots and I think they do a decent enough job. Not a huge fan of the 7 Samurai one-off, but I did enjoy the young mentee bounty hunter episode.

    I absolutely love the storyboard drawings during the credits too.

    I should say that I still enjoy watching almost anything Star Wars, but I’ve definitely toned down my expectations which helps me enjoy it more.

  107. The problem, IMO, is that the new Star Wars franchise was poorly planned from the moment Disney took it over. George Lucas, for all of his many problems, at least had a singular vision for the prequel trilogy when he used the Clone Wars as a hamfisted allegory to explore the origins of totalitarianism with robots, aliens, lasers, and magic saber fighting in outer space. But JJ Abrams isn’t the type of producer who will plan ahead. He’s all about dangling a shiny new object in front of audiences until the next fan service moment. So instead of exploring a different corner of this massive cinematic universe spanning entire galaxies he just rehashed the same goddamned story with the same stakes and players in a cynical ploy to appeal to fan nostalgia with callbacks. Then came Rian Johnson with a wrecking ball to deconstruct the entire mythos and the damage was permanent, severing any hope of logical continuity between the first two films.

    It’s a real shame because I feel a more modest story like one guiding the Mandalorian series would’ve better served the cinematic franchise. Just create a Dune-like multipolar universe after the ROTJ with different warring factions carved from remnants of the Empire throughout the star systems and explore different stories beyond Jedi vs. Sith/Rebels vs. Emipre/Skywalkers vs. Palpatine struggle that has now dominated three trilogies. A Whedonesque Firefly type story in that setting would’ve been so golden in a post-Imperial setting. You could actually get a look at this warring universe beyond the massive battle between two powerful armies from the perspective of the people who live on its margins like bounty-hunters, spice traders, raiders, smugglers, and stormtroopers.

  108. My understanding is that “incel” often refers to real extremists who overdo the chauvinism and often view women as subhuman because they don’t have sex with them. They justify mistreating and dismissing women because women don’t have sex with them. I’ve heard some incels then go to the opposite extreme to become pick-up artists who manipulate and play on women’s emotions which they justify because women did the same thing to them.

    I’m sure the term has been used to describe more and less extreme versions of it, but recently it refers more to the extreme, psychopathic hatred of women by lonely guys on the internet who consider themselves nice or kind while ignoring their other personal shortcomings that make women not want to sleep with them (like their overt chauvinism and hatred of women). So if you’re just going through a cold streak, not really the same thing.

  109. whew…okay, thanks early bird…i don’t hate women, i’m just not getting any…i feel better, sort of…

  110. Yes, incel refers to a person who is not only involuntarily celibate, but also possesses a misogynistic rationale for the lack of sexual activity.

  111. the return of räz…beyond these one-offs from the current timeline…my guess is the next story arc will be a prequel from the distant past of the universe…

    give em what they want – folks seem to want the old republic…

  112. Payton sucks and only gets hollow assists but him starting will jeopardize our shot at a top 5 pick this year. How is that possible?

    Because DSJr is a more accomplished tank commander…..It is really a binary choice….. marginal wins are bad so Payton is a poorer choice. DSJr 95% optimizes ping pong balls and there is maybe a 5-10% chance the lightbulb goes off in various rooms simultaneously (gets his shot fixed, gets serious about playing defense and starts to play smarter and harnesses his athletic gifts).

    Complete effing win-win!!!

    Miller is being watched by FO’s around the league…. he may not have a long shelf life here nor may management but how he handles player development and the team is part of his resume building, too.

    Winning 24 games versus 14 has what we call in poker “reverse implied odds”. Any player > 24 with any value should be sold off yesterday

  113. give em what they want – folks seem to want the old republic…

    Do most fans even know a thing about the Old Republic beyond the glimpse they got in the Phantom Menace and Clone Wars. There’s a such a massive extensive expanded universe in print but would Disney even explore it? There’s thousands of years to cover and audiences don’t have anything to tie the first 9 movies to that part of the mythos beyond Yoda’s ancient ass.

  114. give em what they want – folks seem to want the old republic…

    Do most fans even know a thing about the Old Republic beyond the glimpse they got in the Phantom Menace and Clone Wars? There’s a such a massive extensive expanded universe in print but would Disney even explore it? There’s thousands of years to cover and audiences don’t have anything to tie the first 9 movies to that part of the mythos beyond Yoda’s ancient ass.

  115. There’s thousands of years to cover and audiences don’t have anything to tie the first 9 movies to that part of the mythos beyond Yoda’s ancient ass.

    ha…too funny, still waiting to check out baby yoda…to be honest…i never played the game or dug in to the comics and books…i’ve only seen a bit of that time period from glimpses of the game…it just seems a good way to hit the reset button, there’s a ton of backstory available to work with…sort of like what i think they’ll do with GOT…

  116. Elfrid Payton is not going to single-handedly will this team to victory on numerous occasions. It’s just not the way he plays. His value is highly dependent on his AST%, meaning if he’s playing well other guys are playing well too. So if we play him with the guys we want to play well (Mitch, RJ, Knox, Trier, Frank I guess), there’s not much of a problem.

    Of course he can also get assists from Portis/Gibson/Ellington etc. and that’s bad, but it’s not his fault we signed a bunch of guys we shouldn’t have signed. Those guys shouldn’t be playing, or be on this roster, period. That has nothing to do with Elfrid Payton.

    If I had my choice, I’d probably agree that we should start DSJ, sign someone like Ponds or some other UDFA/G-League standout to back him up, and rack up the losses. I just can’t see our win total being all that different than it will be with our current path, though.

    Again, the combination of the new odds, the lack of a can’t miss guy in this draft, and the potential benefits to younger players make Elfrid Payton a weird hill to die on.

  117. More good ones: r/AskHistorians, r/DIY, r/personalfinance and r/financialindependence.

    You hit a nerve. From r/personalfinance:

    Should I use a financial advisor/planner?
    Probably not.
    Many FAs are paid differently depending on what you do with your money, so they will inevitably be biased in favor of investments that maximize their commissions. This is especially true of financial advisors associated with full-service brokerages, insurance companies, and fund companies focused on active management. For most people investing isn’t more complicated than picking an asset allocation and finding low-cost index-funds, so the best FA in the world will just repeat the same advice we give here.

    I’m not saying those people they’re telling you to stay away from don’t exist, but this kind of thinking is a lot like stratomatic’s posts on Porzingis. Just a whole lot of bullshit that people are trying to will into existence by saying it over and over and over.

    And fwiw the best FAs in the world will absolutely not repeat the same advice given there. Studies about active vs passive (and for the record, I always used a mix of both when I was an advisor) always assume that people stayed in the market for 100% of the time. They obviously don’t, and there is data to support it. You can follow outflow vs inflow to see what people are actually doing.

    After the market went down 14% in December 2018, for example, over $10 billion left low cost ETFs and mutual funds and went into bonds. The market went up 26% after that and most of those investors didn’t get back in. They’re starting to come back now, though. The classic sell-low-buy-high move that plagues most people who get investing advice from the internet.

  118. (continued)

    So let’s say you eschewed a Financial Advisor because he charged 1%. Instead you went with a low cost fund that only had a .20% expense ratio. You saved 80 basis points. Yay! But you missed out on 26% gains because you weren’t sure what you were doing and didn’t trust an advisor because someone on reddit told you that they’re incapable of navigating the simplest conflicts of interest and will always advise you to do what’s in their best interest, not yours.

    The absurdity of that belief is beyond comprehension. “They will inevitably be biased in favor of investments that maximize their commissions.” That’s a joke. It’s like saying don’t go to a doctor, because he could either write you a prescription or perform surgery on you, and he is inherently biased to perform surgery because he gets paid more for it. The inherent bias is for Advisors to do what’s best for their clients because that’s how they get more clients and more clients is better than higher commissions.

    These narratives are written by people who have had bad experiences. It’s unfortunate that they do happen, but an intelligent person should be able to figure out the difference between an ethical advisor and a salesman.

    To give you an idea of the value of an Advisor, in the 2008 Financial Crisis, just me and my partner personally saved our investors $458 million. No one ever complained about our fees after that.

    Another thing an advisor would tell you differently is not to focus on returns but risk-adjusted returns. The passive crowd has too much risk. But risk has been obscenely rewarded for the last 11 years because both governments gamed the system (QE under Obama and corporate tax cuts under Trump) and people have become numb to how much risk they’re actually taking. That will change.

  119. I am a fairly intelligent person and I believe I have as much ability to assess a financial advisor’s acumen and ethics as I do an estate lawyer or tax professional.

    I am also curious as to how many people lost their shirts (and/or missed out on the enormous returns of the last eight years) under the guidance of a professional. While I understand the criticism of the “keep it simple and stupid” approach espoused by the Personal Finance FAQ, I don’t see how the average middle-class investor is supposed to be discerning enough to trust an advisor, especially when there is far less oversight than there would be toward an unscrupulous or incompetent lawyer or doctor.

  120. Yeah, pretty much in agreement w djphan on Haliburton. He’s really good in transition, and he’s stuffing the stat sheet, but I don’t think his 3pt shot is for real (given his meh 72% FT%). His shot is definitely not broken though, so I don’t think he’s going to have severe Lonzo-type issues in the halfcourt. His most alarming stat is his very low FTA per 40–only 3 per game! But other than that the numbers and productivity are there. It’s definitely a two-horse race for best PG prospect right now (though Mannion is not terribly far behind) between Haliburton and Hayes. Hayes is younger and is really good in the pnr and getting to the basket–looks like a pretty complete PG prospect. Has a really terrific FT% (89%) on small volume (3.3 per game, which is troubling like Haliburton but for different reasons as Hayes is really good in the half-court bc of his strong ball handling). His 3pt% is only 33% but that’s not terrible for a young prospect. I like them both, with slight edge to Hayes. Anthony Edwards is the real prize though–dude looks very legit. Kind of getting colder on Wiseman, in part because the four game sample is just too small despite the great numbers, also in part because he’s a total black hole whose game as a lob threat is worse than it looks because of his really long load up–that’s going to be an issue in the NBA even if it’s not currently. And because Onyeka Okongwu has better stocks numbers, better passing, and looks like a complete pogo stick with 0 load up.

    If we get a mid first for Morris this year, I’d really like to spend it on Paul Reed (who’s stuffing the box score and playing elite d from the PF position) or Vernon Carey, if he falls.

    My top 5 right now:

    1. Edwards
    2. Okongwu
    3. Hayes
    4. VCJ
    5. Haliburton

    (Wiseman is 6.)

  121. I was going to post a response but I deleted it. The trolling is strong today, they don’t need to get fed anymore.

    Knicks are slight favorites over the Wizards. Gibson and Morris are listed as day-to-day though..

  122. Thanks guys. I don’t know much about Hayes but he seems fairly intriguing as well. All I know is Cole Anthony doesn’t do much for me based on what I’ve seen/his stats, and the idea of drafting LaMelo Ball makes me groan for many reasons.

    Anthony Edwards looks like a pretty complete player, 2PT% is a little concerning though. VCJ seems destined to rise pretty significantly.

  123. @166

    Agreed on both counts. Cole has not been impressive (very disappointing as a UNC fan/alum…)–total chucker with a ghastly 38% 2pt%, 67% ft%, no touch, whole game predicated on 3 point shooting. Great rebounder though. LaMelo is a trap prospect and just worse than Lonzo in every way I think. The only thing missing from Edwards is that he’s a bit of a chucker. Hard to tell if that changes though–RJ isn’t really a chucker anymore (usually takes pretty good shots, just sucks at making them) despite his being a chucker at Duke, etc.

  124. I note that Miller is now three and five with one blowout win and one blowout loss. The blowout loss was the second game of a back to back, against the best team in the league, and was by fewer points than the Pacers lost to Bucks the next night. That’s not a bad track record. Even if he kept winning three of eight, that would be equivalent to winning thirty games in a regular season, more than the twenty eight we projected on average for the team. I suspect he can keep it up. If so, those of you hoping for great draft position are likely to have your hearts broken

  125. I am a fairly intelligent person and I believe I have as much ability to assess a financial advisor’s acumen and ethics as I do an estate lawyer or tax professional.

    I am admittedly biased having spent over 20 years in this world. It seems to me no different than finding a dentist or a physician. Ask people you trust if they know anyone, find 3-4 people and sit down with them for as many times as it takes for you to trust them. If you don’t get a good feeling, keep looking.

    I am also curious as to how many people lost their shirts (and/or missed out on the enormous returns of the last eight years) under the guidance of a professional.

    Countless possible reasons for this, some the fault of the advisor and many the responsibility of the client. Ultimately Advisors are only that. If you can’t sleep at night and want to sell, the advisor has to do what you say. If you only want to be in safe investments, the advisor has to avoid equities.

    For it to work, you need to have a plan from day 1, you have to be honest and forthright about your risk tolerance, and you need to have regularly scheduled communication to build trust. If none of that’s there, you’re not going to listen to your advisor.

    especially when there is far less oversight than there would be toward an unscrupulous or incompetent lawyer or doctor.

    This is not entirely accurate. Advisors at the brokerage houses (Morgan Stanley, Merrill Lynch, etc) are under extreme levels oversight. Like every email gets read and my cell phone gets checked. I’m not sure how it is with independents.

  126. I note that Miller is now three and five with one blowout win and one blowout loss.

    The Blazers and Heat games were pretty much blowout losses.

  127. Injury Report

    Wizards: Davis Bertans (right quad strain – out), Thomas Bryant (right foot stress reaction – out), Rui Hachimura (groin injury – out), Jordan McRae (right ring finger surgery – out), C.J. Miles (left wrist surgery – out), Isaiah Thomas (league suspension – out), Moritz Wagner (left ankle sprain – out), John Wall (left Achilles rehab – out)

    fire Miller if we lose this one

  128. I am admittedly biased having spent over 20 years in this world.

    wait a minute now – i thought you did like modeling stuff…please, tell me you’re not both attractive and gifted with financial acumen…that’s just not fair to the rest of us man…

    i guess god balanced your ledger a bit with the knicks…

  129. Z-man, I forgot about the Miami game. Definitely that was a blowout. I’m don’t remember the Trail Blazer game being that bad, but you could be right. Let’s see what the team is like tonight.

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