NY Post: Knicks no match for Nikola Jokic, Nuggets

From Marc Berman:

With all due respect, the Knicks saw what a true-blue MVP candidate looked like.

The Knicks didn’t do much in Denver on Wednesday other than to put the unofficial crown on Nuggets’ center Nikola Jokic as the NBA’s next MVP in getting routed 113-97 at Ball Arena.

The Knicks (37-29) haven’t won in the Mile High City since 2006, and they always deny altitude is the issue. But something’s in the air.

In the first quarter alone, Jokic crushed the Knicks inside, outscoring them 24-12 on the way to 32 points in 29 minutes.

It was embarrassing performance, but maybe the Knicks were due for a lethargic stinker after coming in on a 12-1 spree.

As great as Jokic has been the last three seasons, he had never previously scored 24 in the opening frame, and the Knicks trailed 34-12. It was their lowest-scoring first quarter of the season.

Not that the Knicks losing out is going to happen, but their final six games are beyond rough — with the Suns, Clippers and Lakers on the road before closing out at home against the Spurs, Hornets and Celtics.

Adding insult to injury, Austin Rivers, in the Nuggets rotation after his falling out with Tom Thibodeau and messy exit, exacted revenge as he drilled six 3-pointers on nine attempts. He finished with a season-high 25 points in 28 minutes. Rivers also had words with Randle late in the game.

Okay, I guess I shouldn’t have been so confident, but damn, man, they had just smoked the Grizzlies! I was not expecting them to just get embarrassed like this. However, you know the Knicks are playing well when even Marc freakin’ Berman is basically giving them a mea culpa, but I think it’s deserved. If you win 12 out of 13, you are allowed to have one fall on your face game.

Rivers getting his “revenge” against the Knicks is so stupid. They could have kept him parked on the bench if they felt like it. They let him go out and sign with a good team. So what the heck is he mad at them about? And why would he be mad at Randle? So weird.

Anyhow, that sucked, but they’ve been playing so well that I’m still (perhaps unreasonably) optimistic about Friday’s game. The Hawks just stomped the Suns, so it can be done!

By the way, earlier, I wasn’t keeping track of the Celtics game but I checked Twitter and “Mo Bamba” was trending and I was pumped, but then I saw it was because he had a great game…in a Celtics blowout. Booo, Twitter, boooooooo!

But again, bad loss, but nothing to be too concerned about.

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185 thoughts to “NY Post: Knicks no match for Nikola Jokic, Nuggets”

  1. I remember an exchange I had with an honorable member of this community not long ago, and he said stuff like “Mo Bamba isn’t good because even the stupid Magic don’t play him” which I found antithetical to everything I’d ever learned over the years here at KB. Good to see that, as per minute stats suggested, Bamba is, in fact, worth playing, and that Caleb, Mike K, and jon abbey can rest in peace.

  2. Well, we’re due for a stinker,
    we here at KB are flying juuuuuust a little to high yesterday, the humble pie will do us well…
    I’m more disappointed for the Hawks’ obliteration of the Suns.

    I get Rivers’ revenge game.
    He came here on a team friendly contract, said all the right things about choosing the Knicks and help restore the franchise pride, won us a couple of games (plus an incredible first half in Utah), then got cold, we trade for Rose, he start getting DNP-CD till his paternity leave and he didn’t react very well to the benching.

    For me the problem is not the Rose’s trade, the problem is playing Payton (the biggest problem of the year, with multiple impacts).
    I’d rather have Rivers playing that The Plague, he (as Burks) could play PG in a pinch for a team with Randle and RJ and we all know that he’s a streaky player, but when hot he could go supernova and when cold he’s still on par with an average Payton game.
    Maybe there are chemistry issue in the locker room we’re not aware of.

    Now let’s forget about Denver (a predictable defeat nonetheless) and let’s try to steal a game in LA or Phoenix.

    Let’s go Knicks!

  3. Didn’t watch it and was predicted so i reacted with a “oh, ok. on to the next” when checking the scores in the morning. What messed with my day was the Suns letting the Hawks get the W. And now they’ll be highly motivated to not start a losing streak. :(
    Who cares about Austin Rivers? This just proves he was saying the right things, but wasn’t standing up to the words. Good riddance.

  4. Yes we were due for a stinker, and there’s no reason to hang our heads for a loss to Denver.

    However, when we win, we do so in a variety of ways with different players stepping up on different nights.

    When we lose, though, it’s almost always the same way: Julius gets frustrated and forces his shot, and we have too many turnovers. Since Julius will indeed be frustrated in the playoffs against the better teams (and he likely will not get the foul calls he wants), I hope Thibs is showing him film for a clear plan to deal with that.

  5. KB Apprentice: When we lose, though, it’s almost always the same way: Julius gets frustrated and forces his shot, and we have too many turnovers. Since Julius will indeed be frustrated in the playoffs against the better teams (and he likely will not get the foul calls he wants), I hope Thibs is showing him film for a clear plan to deal with that.

    Yeah, that’s the next step for him, to keep playing the right way even when the game isn’t going great. But let’s wait for the rest of this 4 game stretch, because maybe yesterday the MVP thing got to his head, as he was facing Jokic, and we all know that when something goes to his head we get the “bad Julius” back.

  6. I’m fine with this loss. The Knicks got a taste of a top-echelon team, and while their 12 of 13 streak is impressive, none of the wins came against any elite teams at relatively full strength. The closest was PHX and we lost that one. This game was the best measuring stick we’ve had in a while. We didn’t measure up. Some of it is the mile high effect, but not all.

    One of the problems with an overachieving team like ours is that we don’t have another level to get to. Teams like BOS, MIA, and ATL all can gel more as the playoffs approach. We are pretty much topped out. Not saying we can’t win a first round series but I just don’t see how we can improve with the roster we have.

  7. In any case, this season will be a great success no matter what happens. But the play-in vs. 5-6 seed is looking more and more like it will come down to the last game vs. BOS. And our most likely destiny is 6, 7 or 8, and that means MIL, PHI, or BKN. No way we beat any of those teams if they are at full strength.

  8. I agree with Z-Man,
    before the season BOS and MIA were contenders, ATL an up and coming team who won the offseason, not to talk about BRK, MILW and PHI.

    We’re having a fantastic season, but we’re near the top of our potential and we must be considered underdog in every playoffs serie.
    That doesn’t mean we could not win one, only that it’ll be a difficult feat to achieve and it must not cloud our feeling on all the good thing that this team has delivered all season long.

  9. “Obviously things happened. I don’t want to bring any of it to light.

    I wonder what Rivers is talking about other than he’s not particularly good, lost his rotation spot, and whined like a baby.

  10. Ha. The Nugges game was so terrible that Mike Vorkunov instead spent most of the night watching Luca Vildoza film to offer a scouting report on our new guy, including anonymous quotes from a few NBA front office types:

    “He’s good, but overseas guards often have a harder time fitting than wings and bigs,” one NBA front office person said. “He’s really fun, big-time feel out of pick and roll and can guard a bit too, has some shit to him.”

    “Has some shit to him” is my new catchphrase.

  11. which I found antithetical to everything I’d ever learned over the years here at KB

    Checking his game log, it appears that the last two games have completely validated your opinion that Mo Bamba is good, because he’s been utterly mediocre over the course of the season otherwise. Is that what we learn here at KB? Recency bias as a way of life?

  12. if he decides he doesn’t want to wait for next summer (when he could make up to $100 million more than he could if he extends this summer).

    That really does sound pretty absurd when you read it out like that, right? “Hmmm…should I sign now, or wait a year and make $100 million more? What to do, what to do…”

  13. I haven’t read the Windhorst piece (I’m not an ESPN+ subscriber), but apparently he suggests a shorter extension as a compromise to protect Randle against another injury like the one that scuttled his rookie year. Even then, it feels like it would be agent malpractice. Just take out an insurance policy and play your way to free agency, my dude. You’ve earned the max you’re almost certainly going to get.

  14. Yeah, Windhorst goes as far as to say a short term extension could become the “most likely scenario” due to Randle’s desire to remain a Knick, but that just sounds absurd.

  15. Alan: Just take out an insurance policy and play your way to free agency, my dude.

    Insurance policies pay an athlete if they suffer career ending injuries. If they can get an offer, the policy doesn’t pay. (The only exception to this is for NCAA athletes; the NCAA has a special program with Lloyds of London to insure likely top 10 picks.)

    This “agent malpractice”‘ stuff is way off the mark. You can’t just go out into the market place and insure a future max contract offer bc you’re having a career year.

    If Randle suffers a Jay Williams style injury, insurance will pay him. But if he just bursts an achilles like Kevin Durant, he’s going to lose a shit ton of money.

  16. True, there is definitely a theoretical risk for Randle. It pales in comparison to the upside of waiting a year and “just” make another $20 million (to bring his career earnings to $80 million) before cashing in on a gigantic contract, but the theoretical risk does exist.

  17. Mo Bamba is definitely a great get if we can do something like swap hometown lottery busts with Orlando. I don’t think Knox and the Detroit 2nd is enough to land him anymore, but Bamba is a high IQ guy with a ton of two way potential who has focus lapses. If you think Thibs can coach those out of him, and I do after watching the improvement Randle and Toppin have made on that end of the floor, what you’re going to end up with is a top 40 player in the NBA. The high upside plays this off-season are trades for Jalen Brunson and Mo Bamba as well as the Lonzo Ball acquisition. I would be riding higher than Dogecoin after an Elon Musk tweet if we did something like:

    Knox and DET’s 2021 2RP for Mo Bamba
    Dallas’ 2021 and 2023 1RPs for Jalen Brunson (we’d essentially be giving them control of their draft picks back for a guy I believe is the next Kyle Lowry)
    Lonzo Ball on a contract worth less than $90M

    —-

    The Randle discussion is kinda pointless. In 2022 he’ll be the best free agent on the market at age 28 so there’s no way you get him to sign now. If he signs an extension with us, Brock Aller deserves his jersey retired in the rafters. Next topic.

  18. spencer dinwiddie was actually trying to setup a service to sell futures for nba contracts which in some circumstances could work out for randle as some sort of insurance … basically he could cash out on his future value right now through dinwiddie’s security token offering…

    it was a pretty interesting idea… not sure what happened to it…

  19. If Randle happens to find a suitcase full of fifty million dollars in his backyard, who would be any wiser? Capisce?

  20. ***Checking his game log, it appears that the last two games have completely validated your opinion that Mo Bamba is good, because he’s been utterly mediocre over the course of the season otherwise. Is that what we learn here at KB? Recency bias as a way of life?***

    I just don’t get it. Bamba’s rate stats are excellent. He’d have led the league in block% last year and would be a top-10 rebounder if he met the minutes qualifications. He has above average efficiency, has shown improvement across the board, and is only 22. He was stuck behind Vucevic and Birch, capping his productivity, and now that he’s been “freed” he is putting up per game stats on par with his per minute stats. Isn’t this the Jermaine O’Neal effect? Isn’t this a win for the statheads? You’re really confusing me with this whole “Mo Bamba is bad” narrative.

  21. Mo Bamba had a hit song written about him at a younger age than any other sports immortal, so he’s a lock for the HOF. RJ plus two firsts should get it done.

  22. I’m 100% on the Bamba is good train, and 1000% want him on the Knicks. Having Bamba in New York with Barrett and Randle gives us a ton of opportunity to run triangle sets (which I believe Thibs is starting to flesh out) and he really gives you a shot at having one of like 5 high level two-way centers in the NBA. My biggest fear is Boston will trade for him and flat out dominate the NBA with Bamba, Tatum, and Brown.

  23. Macri in a podcast was saying that the Knicks wanted to bring in KG for Mitchell Robinson to work with over the summer. If we had Bamba on the roster and put him to work with Kenny Payne and KG, it’s hard not to like the upside there.

  24. Bamba really would fit the Celtics perfectly. And he presumably impressed them with his performance against them last night.

  25. Donnie Walsh: You’re really confusing me with this whole “Mo Bamba is bad” narrative.

    Would I trade Knox and a far-off 2RP for him? Sure. My previous comments about Bamba were that he came into the league as a #6 overall pick and he has, until the last two games, largely played like a replacement player at a position where athleticism and height should be able to get you over the 100 TS%+ hump. Those last two games represent a full 10% of his total shot attempts this season. It’s not the QED material you’re looking for.

    I’ve been wrong before — Clarke over Barrett (probably), Anthony Edwards early on looking like the worst bust since Bennett, Succession being a meh show after the first four or so episodes — but you’re not going to get a mea culpa after two solid games, one against a hard-tanking Pistons squad and the other a 36-point loss against a mediocre Celts team.

  26. A few things:
    1. I wouldn’t say the Knicks smoked the Grizzlies per say; they were only up 5 in the 4q b4 Julius hit that big 3 and Rose worked his magic.
    2.

    he has, until the last two games, largely played like a replacement player at a position where athleticism and height should be able to get you over the 100 TS%+ hump.

    They always say to be weary of a good-stats-on-a-bad-team player, right? On the other hand, because he’s only 22 and on a team that’s gone full youth movement, he could be the type of market inefficiency move the Knicks could exploit at the right price. And TBF, it hasn’t just been those two games if you peek through his game logs of his past 18 games or so.
    3. In a sense, he was the Magic’s Obi Toppin: a guy drafted to replace a decent starter that the team planned to trade, except said starter turned himself into a low-level All-Star player.

  27. Hoops-related but not Knicks-related: a couple of years ago, I had my right shoulder surgically repaired after a rotator cuff tear, and for a long time after, I had to do a lot of things left-handed. Shooting baskets in our driveway hoop perhaps chief among them. Yesterday, we finally found where our basketballs had been hiding in the garage over the winter and began shooting again. And even though my right arm is now more or less back to full functionality, I have discovered that I’m now much more consistent and accurate shooting with my left.

  28. spencer dinwiddie was actually trying to setup a service to sell futures for nba contracts which in some circumstances could work out for randle as some sort of insurance … basically he could cash out on his future value right now through dinwiddie’s security token offering…

    what dinwiddie wanted to do was fascinating, but not applicable to the Randle situation.

    He wanted to sell shares of his contract that was already guaranteed, but which he wouldn’t receive until the final year of his contract, for digital currency that he could use immediately.

    The league shot it down.

  29. If Randle hit the market today, he’d get a max. But I don’t think he’s guaranteed to receive that max next year. Forget about injury… what if his 3 Pt shooting regresses? What if the Knicks acquire a primary ball handler like Lillard and his production diminishes? What if he doesn’t excel in the postseason with defenses keyed in on him?

    I see a lot of things that can happen between now and next summer that would make teams hesitant to offer him a max contract in 2022. And you can’t insure against any of them.

  30. The league shot it down

    although the league whined a little, dinwiddie actually did this. he attempted to sell 90 tokens, bonds essentially, but with principal and interest paid in the stablecoin Paxos, for $13.5 million total. Demand was weak, however, and he was only able to sell 9 tokens for $150k each.

    you can find the form D for the sale here

    https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/0001816976/000181697620000002/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xml

    you can even find the contracts on etherscan if you are bored (and you are), 9 sd26 erc-20 tokens sent to 8 different addresses.

  31. Can Randle’s extension be a 2+2 player option? If yes, on the first 2 years he’ll earn 24.9M+26.1M (51 total), whereas if he waits he’ll earn 20.75M+33.6M (54.35 total). He’ll be adding 30.25M guaranteed in the next 2 years, at a cost of only 3.35M. I don’t think this would be malpractice.
    And then if he’s still at all-star level, he can decline the option and sign a max in 2023 (which is also good for the Knicks as it aligns Julius’ max with RJ’s extension).

  32. i think we’re talking about different but similar things.. which is my fault cause i thought it was all the same after i just looked it up…

    what dinwiddie WANTED to do was eventually securitize players earning power so that they can be traded on the open market like stocks…. what he ACTUALLY got approved to do was to sell bonds on his own contract through tokens… it was sort of a proof of concept so that he could eventually open up an athlete market….

    anyway the below explains it much better…
    https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27853850/how-investing-150k-spencer-dinwiddie-actually-work

  33. gotta imagine it won’t be too long before teams just stop throwing strikes to giancarlo for a while…man, that dude is on fire right now…

    looks like hicks and frazier/gardner might be waking up too…the yanks should have a real solid year…

  34. I don’t understand the Bamba talk, and even not entering the discussion if he’s a good player or not, the move would be a disaster for the Knicks. We have weaknesses and center is not one of them, so why do it? And to add to that, there’s the move ORL made at the deadline, they shipped Vucevic so they made Bamba the center of the future and you guys think they’ll trade him on the cheap? Or are you happy to pay a premium for an unproved player? Doesn’t make sense. If we want a center, Myles Turner is the player to go at, because seems like IND doesn’t value him all that much. But even that i wouldn’t do it, we have Mitch, Taj will be re-signed easily, it’s for the best to try and improve other positions (PG, please).

  35. cybersoze:
    I don’t understand the Bamba talk, and even not entering the discussion if he’s a good player or not, the move would be a disaster for the Knicks. We have weaknesses and center is not one of them, so why do it? And to add to that, there’s the move ORL made at the deadline, they shipped Vucevic so they made Bamba the center of the future and you guys think they’ll trade him on the cheap? Or are you happy to pay a premium for an unproved player? Doesn’t make sense. If we want a center, Myles Turner is the player to go at, because seems like IND doesn’t value him all that much. But even that i wouldn’t do it, we have Mitch, Taj will be re-signed easily, it’s for the best to try and improve other positions (PG, please).

    You view Kevin Knox and pick #35 as a premium to pay? Knox is useless and we already added a rookie point guard to our roster. Also, Wendell Carter Jr is the starting center for Orlando; Bamba has only started two games on the season. There is no world where trading some of our least valuable assets for Mo Bamba is a disaster, and there’s no actual proof Orlando values him. My stance is if we can swap our central Florida born bust and a 2RP for Orlando’s Harlem born bust, we should absolutely do it because he’s been criminally underutilized in his current situation.

  36. Watching the Mets strand RISP is as joyful as watching the Knicks during the Fizdale era.

  37. an rj barrett stan account: You view Kevin Knox and pick #35 as a premium to pay?

    If that’s price, then i guess it brings no harm. But i’d much prefer to take a flier on Joel Ayayi (Gonzaga’s PG).

  38. Pretty weird MLB season so far–the Yankees looked dead in the water a week ago and if they finish off the Astros today they’ll be within 1.5 games of having the best record in the sport, currently held by a team that started 1-7.

  39. And fields like that little brother’s older brother.

    It’s painful to watch. Tried to bunt for a hit against Gant who has no discernible sense of where the strike zone is.

    I like Bamba. My understanding is that his defense and effort are below his tools but I’d be happy to take a flyer on him. I like Wendell Carter too, always have.

    I’d give an extension real thought if I were Randle. I am with Hubert, there is downside risk. The whole narrative that has built around him now may dissipate.

  40. Vildoza oficially signed. So I assume Harper is back on a two-way deal again.

  41. Looks like it was the Knicks that messed up in the previous announcement and Harper never signed a 2nd 10-day. When the 1st 10-day ended he reverted back to the 2-way spot he had before.

    In HoopsRumors.com:
    Once Jared Harper‘s 10-day contract expired on Sunday night, the Knicks had one open spot on their 15-man roster and one open two-way contract slot. The team announced that Harper received a second 10-day deal, but the league’s official transactions log showed that he was actually re-signed to a two-way contract, which Hoops Rumors has confirmed. As such, there’s an open spot on the 15-man squad for Vildoza.

  42. So now, the only question still to answer is when is Vildoza joining the Knicks.

  43. Mets have bases loaded, no outs, 4-5-6 hitters coming up.

    Over/under of runs they will score: minus 0.5

  44. JK47:
    Mets have bases loaded, no outs, 4-5-6 hitters coming up.

    Over/under of runs they will score: minus 0.5

    that worked out as well as the time I celebrated getting the Knicks plus 6 in Denver.

  45. ptmilo:
    The league shot it down

    although the league whined a little, dinwiddie actually did this.he attempted to sell 90 tokens, bonds essentially, but with principal and interest paid in the stablecoin Paxos, for $13.5 million total.Demand was weak, however, and he was only able to sell 9 tokens for $150k each.

    you can find the form D for the sale here

    https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/0001816976/000181697620000002/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xml

    you can even find the contracts on etherscan if you are bored (and you are), 9 sd26 erc-20 tokens sent to 8 different addresses.

    thank you for the correction, mr milo!

    Sounds like a singalong for the next JG Wentworth commercial.

    I have an NBA contract but I need cash now

    call JG Wentworth. 877 cash now

  46. ***you’re not going to get a mea culpa after two solid games***

    I don’t want a mea culpa. I am just trying to understand what you’re seeing in his stat sheet and not liking.

    When I first started reading this site, I knew nothing of advanced stats. I slowly learned, and the game has made a lot more sense to me because of it. I remember Mike K explaining that looking at rate stats, statisticians were able to identify under-utilized players buried deep in rotations. He cited Jermaine O’Neal languishing in Portland as a youngster as a primary example. With that in mind, Bamba seemed like a candidate for a breakout given starter’s minutes. His blocks and rebounding rates are excellent. (In fact, his block rate is on par with Mitch Robinson and his rebound rate is quite a bit better than Robinson, and his points-per-minutes are a lot better an Robinson, and his D-Rating is the same as Robinson’s, and though Robinson has a higher TS% thus far, Robinson’s has actually regressed while Bamba’s is still on an upward trajectory. Plus, Bamba shoots a high volume of 3 pointers at a league average percentage for centers, making him a modern center. Still, during his rookie and sophomore seasons, many people here complained that Mitch was being under-utilized and needed more minutes. I’m just trying to understand how these stats seem to apply to these players differently.

    Last time we discussed, you alluded to the Magic not playing him much as an indictment against him. Which I found odd because you often rail against stupid coaches and bad GMs for not valuing players properly. I was kind of baffled by that, and to be honest every time I’ve seen Bamba’s name in a boxscore I think of it, trying to understand.

  47. cybersoze: Can Randle’s extension be a 2+2 player option? If yes, on the first 2 years he’ll earn 24.9M+26.1M (51 total), whereas if he waits he’ll earn 20.75M+33.6M (54.35 total). He’ll be adding 30.25M guaranteed in the next 2 years, at a cost of only 3.35M. I don’t think this would be malpractice.

    And i got it wrong (again!) as this would only apply if we had an option to decline. Since the contract is partially guaranteed, the extension kicks in 2022-23 and even if it’s a 2+2 the difference between the first 2 years would be 20M+ and that’s huge. There’s little chance Randle signs an extension being only 12 months away from a (possible) 5/$201.5M contract.

  48. He has the Knicks overachieving on offense. After timeouts, they’ve scored 118.2 points per 100 possessions, the second-best mark in the league, per PBPstats.com, and they’ve been almost as good in other dead-ball scenarios. Players and fellow coaches have long raved about Thibodeau’s attention to detail, but this is tangible evidence that he is affecting games with his play-calling.

    Definitely coach of the year! :)

  49. Donnie Walsh:
    ***you’re not going to get a mea culpa after two solid games***

    I don’t want a mea culpa. I am just trying to understand what you’re seeing in his stat sheet and not liking.

    https://craftednba.com/players/mo-bamba

    We’ve given up on DRtg because it’s a bad stat. The block stuff is cool, but his net rating is still godawful and he’s only under contract for another year. From a 6th overall pick you just have to expect more. He should be either the best or second-best player of the modern types (dribble penetrator, catch-and-shoot wing, stretch big, PNR big) and he’s been underwhelming for awhile now.

    The one caveat I have is that he got hit by COVID badly last summer and we still don’t know how that affects a professional athlete beyond anecdotes about Tatum’s inhaler, etc.

    Again, I would take him on the Knicks for Knox or a low-value draft pick. I would not give up a first for him.

  50. Alec Burks (contused left knee) and Immanuel Quickley (sprained left ankle) are doubtful for tomorrow’s game at Phoenix.

    Well, that sucks.

  51. thaddeus young played almost 30k minutes in the nba averaging 2 assists per 36, never more than 3. now at age 32 he’s at 6.4 per 36 (slightly ahead of bam and randle) and making no look drew brees drops to the dunker’s spot. the bulls have scored almost 118 per 100 with him on and 106 with him off.

  52. I did a serious double take when I looked at his numbers during the Bulls game. Fountain of youth this year.

    Do I really have to root for the Nets tonight? (I suppose I can safely back the Mavs at this point)

  53. ***He should be either the best or second-best player [of his draft class] of the modern types (dribble penetrator, catch-and-shoot wing, stretch big, PNR big) and he’s been underwhelming for awhile now.***

    The craft data is interesting, thanks for linking.

    Question: why do you put emphasis on where someone is drafted once the draft is over? Isn’t comparing him to the other players in his draft class kind of moot, given that all classes are different. Is it just to measure him up contractually? The 2018 draft class has produced some extraordinarily good pros in just 2.5 years. If Bamba had been drafted in the 2019 class his BPM and VORP would both see him much higher (top 6). And even still, per those stats, Bamba is still ranking higher than Wendell Carter and Marvin Bagley, both bigs selected in the lottery with him, and on a par with JJJ, who’s been praised since coming into the league. In fact, as far as “stretch bigs” go, aren’t Bamba and JJJ the top 1 and 2 in the 2018 draft class thus far?

    Sorry to belabor this. I just thought I had some stuff figured out here, and apparently I still have a bunch to learn. (I totally failed math and statistics back in high school, so I’ve really had to come a long way on this stuff).

  54. It’s mostly about the opportunity cost of selecting a Mo Bamba. And I think ten other teams might have taken him at six if they had been able to, so it’s more a matter of him failing to live up to expectations than him being an outright bad player. Just not the potential superstar he was made out to be. I think he’s stiff. And yeah, Bagley has been a huge bust. So Bamba wasn’t the only big with outsized expectations and a near-total failure to meet them.

  55. ***It’s mostly about the opportunity cost***

    I feel like opportunity cost should play into evaluating the investor, not the invested, no? Where and when he was drafted doesn’t change the numbers on his stat sheet, and he didn’t make the decision to draft him #6.

    But let’s say you are right. Even still, is there a stretch big drafted after #6 in 2018 who is demonstrably better than Bamba? Not Carter. Or Wagner. Or Spellman. Or Thomas Welsh. Or Chimezie Metu. Or Kevin Hervey. Or Alize Johnson. Is there somebody that I am missing?

  56. Kyrie air balled a finger rolled layup from point blank range. Wide open. Bizarre

  57. Owen
    May 6, 2021 at 10:00 pm

    “Kyrie air balled a finger rolled layup from point blank range. Wide open. Bizarre”

    He looked like Charles Smith trying to lay it in, only without Jordan and Ho Grant anywhere around.

  58. Big loss for ATL, magic number with them down to 4, and they have 2 games with the pesky Wizards coming up. We really need to win one of these next 3.

  59. With the Knicks holding the tiebreaker vs Atlanta plus the Heat and Celtics playing each other back to back coming up it really is looking pretty difficult for the Knicks to fall to 7th.

  60. Donnie Walsh: I feel like opportunity cost should play into evaluating the investor, not the invested, no? Where and when he was drafted doesn’t change the numbers on his stat sheet, and he didn’t make the decision to draft him #6.

    I’m not saying that he should give his salary back. I’m saying that he was chosen as though he were a franchise player, and he is not. That’s on the Magic for drafting him at 6, and also on him for being a perfectly average NBA player in limited minutes.

    And his basic numbers are whatever. Again, I don’t think we’d be having this conversation before he played the last two games.

  61. It sounds like Randle can make up to $140 mil “with incentives” on an extension versus $200 mil (only via the knicks or sign-and-trade) in free agency. I don’t think it’s such an easy choice.

  62. ***I’m saying that he was chosen as though he were a franchise player, and he is not***

    I’m still having some trouble following your evaluatory process, I’m afraid. Why is there expectation on the #6 pick to be a franchise player? Rarely are there 6 players in a draft worthy of building a franchise around. In fact, in the 10 drafts preceding that one, none of them yielded 6 franchise players.

    But even if he’s underperforming his draft expectation, why does that matter when comparing him to other players? Other than rookie salary scale, where a guy is picked doesn’t really matter 2.5 years later. What’s the use of dwelling on it? (It’s more of a sunk cost than an opportunity cost, no?)

  63. Z-man:
    Big loss for ATL, magic number with them down to 4, and they have 2 games with the pesky Wizards coming up. We really need to win one of these next 3.

    at this point…looks like the laker game is the most likely suspect…they look horrible…how did they beat Denver the other night?

  64. So who do we like at our ever-worsening draft spots?

    It seems likely that we’ll try to trade up with a team wanting to save $, but assuming we stay put, I think Duarte could be a really useful fit. The 2nd unit needs more defense, which he brings, and he’s a real threat from three. Plus he has good size and a well-rounded game.

    Vecenie has us taking Jackson from Kentucky with out other pick, but I really don’t like the idea of taking a rim-running big in the first round.

    I’d rather take Tre Mann. I don’t really love any of the pure pgs there, and Mann can really shoot but has room to grow. I would look for a big in the 2nd round.

  65. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    I’m not saying that he should give his salary back. I’m saying that he was chosen as though he were a franchise player, and he is not. That’s on the Magic for drafting him at 6, and also on him for being a perfectly average NBA player in limited minutes.

    And his basic numbers are whatever. Again, I don’t think we’d be having this conversation before he played the last two games.

    In addition to DW’s rebuttal, which I 100% agree with, I think your assessment is diametrically opposed to the basic premises that elevated this blog from day 1…that per minute stats were likely to be independent of team or coach or playing time. Bamba’s per 36 stats this year are actually very good for a 22yo…19.2 pts at a TS% of .579, 13.2 rebs, 2.9 blks, hardly “perfectly average”…and he’s still younger than Obi Toppin.

    I agree that his progress has been disappointing compared to what was expected of him. The dude’s defensive measurables are unparalleled and he has a soft touch from 3 and some moves in the post. And yeah, he’s way behind guys like Mitch and Timelord who are similar players, so I get the opportunity cost thing. That’s the thing about drafting “raw” bigs in the top-5….finding one that will not make you regret passing over (or trading down for) guards and wings like Mikal and Shai is a risky proposition. Seems like there’s always a Bamba or better-level player buried in the non-lottery first round or even in the second. Bamba’s slow development has been very disappointing. But at his current per-minute production, he’s likely to be at least a Nerlens-level player going forward except with better floor-stretching, so it’s weird that you are characterizing him as a huge FO blunder given his age and production.

    If his body ever catches up to NBA physicality, which is a KP-level if, he can become a dominant player in the modern game. He’s not gonna get any shorter ant that 7’10” wingspan isn’t going anywhere. I’d love to acquire him on the cheap.

  66. ess-dog:
    So who do we like at our ever-worsening draft spots?

    It seems likely that we’ll try to trade up with a team wanting to save $, but assuming we stay put, I think Duarte could be a really useful fit. The 2nd unit needs more defense, which he brings, and he’s a real threat from three. Plus he has good size and a well-rounded game.

    Vecenie has us taking Jackson from Kentucky with out other pick, but I really don’t like the idea of taking a rim-running big in the first round.

    I’d rather take Tre Mann. I don’t really love any of the pure pgs there, and Mann can really shoot but has room to grow. I would look for a big in the 2nd round.

    I pay almost no attention to the college game and thus can’t speak to specific players I want, but I can to player types. Depending on how the board falls — and depending on whether we keep all three picks or package them — I’d like to spend our first rounders on a point guard who can shoot and either a wing or a combo forward, and then we could use the Detroit pick on either a rim runner or a draft-and-stash guy. But, again, that assumes that’s where the value would be at each spot.

  67. ess-dog:
    So who do we like at our ever-worsening draft spots?

    It seems likely that we’ll try to trade up with a team wanting to save $, but assuming we stay put, I think Duarte could be a really useful fit. The 2nd unit needs more defense, which he brings, and he’s a real threat from three. Plus he has good size and a well-rounded game.

    Vecenie has us taking Jackson from Kentucky with out other pick, but I really don’t like the idea of taking a rim-running big in the first round.

    I’d rather take Tre Mann. I don’t really love any of the pure pgs there, and Mann can really shoot but has room to grow. I would look for a big in the 2nd round.

    I don’t think we are set 2-deep at any position so it would probably be best to prioritize the best guards and wings available regardless of position. Let’s find useful rotation players that can contribute right away, like IQ. I’d like a hard-nosed PG that can pass and shoot, like a Jalen Brunson-type, and 3 and D scoring wing. Maybe a banger or rim protector with our early 2nd. Not sure who those guys are yet, but that’s what I’d be looking for.

  68. I heard that Burks and Quickley are out for tonight’s Phoenix game. Has Vildoza joined the team yet?

  69. I’d like a hard-nosed PG that can pass and shoot, like a Jalen Brunson-type

    Maybe that’s Vildoza, though.

  70. I’m still really worried about these last games. This is a brutal stretch and I really want to avoid falling to 6th.

  71. It sounds like Randle can make up to $140 mil “with incentives” on an extension versus $200 mil (only via the knicks or sign-and-trade) in free agency. I don’t think it’s such an easy choice.

    That’s misleading since it is counting the $21 million he would make next year, which he would make in the $200 million scenario, as well. So it’s really $140 million over five (with about $15 million in incentives, which he will not necessarily meet) versus $221 million over six (without incentives).

    In other words, $120 million in new money (with $15 million of that through incentives he might not meet) versus $200 million in new money. It’s really no comparison.

  72. DudesTown:
    I heard that Burks and Quickley are out for tonight’s Phoenix game. Has Vildoza joined the team yet?

    I believe he has to go through the COVID protocols and there has been no mention if he started that process.

  73. So basically, if either the Heat or the Celtics sweep the other, then the Knicks are pretty much locked in at no lower than #6, right?

  74. Deeefense:
    I’m still really worried about these last games.This is a brutal stretch and I really want to avoid falling to 6th.

    All of our remaining opponents are competing for a playoff position, though Pop seems to be ignoring that and trying out various young players. No bunnies at all.

  75. I can’t get over just how great this Vildoza deal is. Such a smart move.

  76. Barring a catastrophic injury, there’s really no bad outcome for this season. If we fold down the stretch, anything from a loss in the play-in to a 6-8 seed and a quick first round exit, we get a better draft pick and the FO gets a reminder that this team was an overachieving but very flawed anomaly. If we win in the first round, it makes us more attractive as a FA destination and maybe the FO continues to sign players to value deals up and down the roster, or make a prudent blockbuster deal in the offseason. You have to believe by now that Leon & Co. know what they’re doing.

  77. I feel that our most likely finish is 2-4 and that whoever wins game 72 vs. Celts will determine the 5-6-7 seeds. I don’t like our chances to hold on to #4. But hey, I’ve underestimated this team all year, so 4-2?

  78. Barring a catastrophic injury, there’s really no bad outcome for this season. If we fold down the stretch, anything from a loss in the play-in to a 6-8 seed and a quick first round exit, we get a better draft pick and the FO gets a reminder that this team was an overachieving but very flawed anomaly. If we win in the first round, it makes us more attractive as a FA destination and maybe the FO continues to sign players to value deals up and down the roster, or make a prudent blockbuster deal in the offseason. You have to believe by now that Leon & Co. know what they’re doing.

    While you’re absolutely correct that there’s no bad result for this season left, it’s fascinating to me how little it seems the rest of this season really even matters vis a vis the offseason. This is going to be such an important offseason (understatement of the year) and yet it feels so disconnected from the rest of this season. I think it’s because so many key players are free agents (while luckily, the two most important players are not, and Mitch and Quickley are both big-time players, too, and are both under contract, and then there’s Maude…or Obi, whatever) that I really have no idea what Rose is thinking about for next season. The team could look dramatically different or it could look pretty much the same. Everything is up in the air.

  79. I feel that our most likely finish is 2-4 and that whoever wins game 72 vs. Celts will determine the 5-6-7 seeds. I don’t like our chances to hold on to #4. But hey, I’ve underestimated this team all year, so 4-2?

    The Hawks losing last night was so freaking huge. It’s hilarious how well the Knicks do on nights they don’t play.

  80. 4/5 and we have a chance to win a playoff series but it’s all gravy to me at this point. I could argue it’s better for our long term future that we get thoroughly trounced by someone in the playoffs.

  81. In addition to DW’s rebuttal, which I 100% agree with, I think your assessment is diametrically opposed to the basic premises that elevated this blog from day 1…that per minute stats were likely to be independent of team or coach or playing time. Bamba’s per 36 stats this year are actually very good for a 22yo…19.2 pts at a TS% of .579, 13.2 rebs, 2.9 blks, hardly “perfectly average”…and he’s still younger than Obi Toppin.

    Yes, per-36 numbers elevated this blog in 2010. We’re past that.

    BPM 0.8
    PIPM 0.7
    RAPTOR -2.2
    RPM -0.64

    I’m still failing to see how his perfectly-average TS%+ of 100 is anything but, uh, average.

  82. Brian Cronin:
    I can’t get over just how great this Vildoza deal is. Such a smart move.

    What was the deal, Brian? I was undergoing chemo treatments this week and lost track.

  83. 4/5 and we have a chance to win a playoff series but it’s all gravy to me at this point. I could argue it’s better for our long term future that we get thoroughly trounced by someone in the playoffs.

    What to do with the veteran quartet of Rose/Bullock/Noel/Burks will be a major part of this offseason (Taj should be able to be brought back cheap, so I’m not counting him). And that’s the thing about Rose. We have no idea how he would be swayed by something like those four helping fuel a first round win. Would that be a concern for lots of other GMs? Definitely. But I don’t think we know enough about Rose to tell one way or the other. He’s done well enough so far that I’d like to believe he would be able to make a detached decision, though, so I am not as concerned as I would be with another GM (where I would think that yes, there would be some concern that a first round win would lead them to lock this current squad down, which is prooooooobably not the best idea).

  84. What was the deal, Brian? I was undergoing chemo treatments this week and lost track.

    Alan explained it, but basically it’s one of those low risk high upside moves that this organization never seems to make, so it was great to see them actually do one of them this year. And best of luck with your treatments!

  85. What to do with the veteran quartet of Rose/Bullock/Noel/Burks will be a major part of this offseason (Taj should be able to be brought back cheap, so I’m not counting him). And that’s the thing about Rose. We have no idea how he would be swayed by something like those four helping fuel a first round win. Would that be a concern for lots of other GMs? Definitely. But I don’t think we know enough about Rose to tell one way or the other. He’s done well enough so far that I’d like to believe he would be able to make a detached decision, though, so I am not as concerned as I would be with another GM (where I would think that yes, there would be some concern that a first round win would lead them to lock this current squad down, which is prooooooobably not the best idea).

    Having both a POBO named Rose and a player named Rose gets very confusing sometimes. I was midway through this paragraph, Brian, before I realized you were mostly talking about Leon and not Derrick.

  86. DudesTown: I was undergoing chemo treatments this week and lost track.

    Sorry to hear that, my dude. Hope the side effects aren’t too rough.

  87. *Argentine

    Dammit, I was too busy worrying about the spelling of Venezuelan to realize I’d biffed the country of origin entirely. Sorry.

  88. Mo Bamba is hardly a known player, he has played in a very limited role, has been often injured, and has had covid this year. He is very skilled, and I think he will be good in the future. He has been behind Vucevic all these time and I am pretty sure the Magic will want to feature him next season to know what they really have in him.

    But being average in his 3rd year in limited minutes is good, and he deserves more minutes than he has usually played.

    No point in trading for him, as it makes no sense for the Magic to get rid of him cheaply when they are not playing for anything next year and we are set at C.

  89. 4/5 and we have a chance to win a playoff series but it’s all gravy to me at this point. I could argue it’s better for our long term future that we get thoroughly trounced by someone in the playoffs.

    Your point about the value of getting trounced in the playoffs is valid. But I would argue that the lesson is the same no matter what round you get trounced in. So let’s get trounced in round 2, not round 1 :)

    Side note: the Sixers strike me as an extremely beatable 1 seed in the 2nd round. I can see them going down to us, Atlanta, or Boston.

    I won’t be mad if we lose in round 1, but I think conference finals is not a far-fetched scenario. We can get trounced by the Bucks.

  90. No point in trading for him, as it makes no sense for the Magic to get rid of him cheaply when they are not playing for anything next year and we are set at C.

    The only question for them is that they seem to see Carter as their future at center, so if they do decide that Carter is their future, then Bamba isn’t, so that trading him might make more sense. But yes, I certainly don’t think they plan to, like, dump Bamba.

  91. Brian Cronin: Alan explained it, but basically it’s one of those low risk high upside moves that this organization never seems to make, so it was great to see them actually do one of them this year. And best of luck with your treatments!

    Thank you

  92. To anyone interested, I’d recommend getting regular cancer screenings, including colonoscopies, so as to catch things as early as possible.

  93. Brian Cronin:
    I can’t get over just how great this Vildoza deal is. Such a smart move.

    I am perhaps being cynical, but the deal is so great it makes me wonder how good he can really be.

    The reviews are *so* strong. If he is that good and was in such demand, why accept that deal?

  94. The Honorable Cock Jowles: I’m still failing to see how his perfectly-average TS%+ of 100 is anything but, uh, average.

    I’m inclined to look at his TS% and accept that it reflects his struggle to learn a key skill (three point shooting). Like with Obi, I’d rather a young guy try to become a three point shooter than just do what he’s good at.

  95. I am perhaps being cynical, but the deal is so great it makes me wonder how good he can really be.

    But since only the first year is guaranteed, if he’s not good, then, as Bob Dylan once noted, “there was little risk involved.”

  96. It is a good deal but I don’t think its that unusual for a Euro player who is coming over a bit older and undrafted. I don’t think we should expect this guy to be the PG of the future but if he can be a good back up PG for us, maybe Rose becomes the starter in the playoffs and Elf/this dude split the back up and then next year Rose is the starter and this dude is the backup?

  97. Yeah, I’m not expecting Vildoza to be anything more than an interesting backup guard, if that, and the salary is so low (and unguaranteed year to year) that it’s not a big deal if he doesn’t even amount to that.

  98. Is the present season the first year of his 4 year deal? If it is, then it’s really more of a 3 year deal, isn’t it?

  99. DudesTown: Is the present season the first year of his 4 year deal? If it is, then it’s really more of a 3 year deal, isn’t it?

    That’s correct. He helps the Knicks get to the salary floor this year, and in exchange they get a sneak preview of him before they have to decide whether to keep him.

  100. Brian Cronin:
    I can’t get over just how great this Vildoza deal is. Such a smart move.

    It really is. And so was the Rose trade, which none of us thought at the time made any sense. And the Burks signing. And the Noel signing. Etc etc

    We’ve all got GM PTSD and rightfully so, but at some point we have to acknowledge that this front office really knows what it’s doing

  101. DudesTown:
    To anyone interested, I’d recommend getting regular cancer screenings, including colonoscopies, so as to catch things as early as possible.

    My best wishes and best of luck Dudes!
    And thanks for the sound (and too often neglected) advice.

  102. and then next year Rose is the starter and this dude is the backup?

    that seems like the dream. I’ve seen enough from Rose to conclude that going all out for a PG isn’t as huge a need as we thought 3 months ago. I would be perfectly fine with Rose & Vildoza playing 48 mins of PG, and saving the assets/cap space for an elite wing.

  103. Alan: Dammit, I was too busy worrying about the spelling of Venezuelan to realize I’d biffed the country of origin entirely. Sorry.

    Very few know that Vildoza, while born in Argentina (and a member of their national team) has the double citizenship, argentian and italian (he’s listed as italian in the Euroloeague official website) so he that he can play for EU teams without using one of the “foreign” spots.

    That’s why I’m double happy :-)

  104. DudesTown:
    Is the present season the first year of his 4 year deal? If it is, then it’s really more of a 3 year deal, isn’t it?

    we basically used our cap space this year that couldn’t be used on anything else to buy him out and give him a signing bonus… then we have him on a three year deal that’s 0% guaranteed. It is an incredible deal from our POV.

    In addition, the reviews of him from peers and coaches in europe are very strong. They’re so strong, in fact, that I wonder why a guy like
    that would accept such a shitty deal! To be clear: my skepticism only applies to the reviews i’m reading, not the deal. The deal’s great.

  105. Max: My best wishes and best of luck Dudes!
    And thanks for the sound (and too often neglected) advice.

    Thanks, Max!

  106. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Yes, per-36 numbers elevated this blog in 2010. We’re past that.

    BPM 0.8
    PIPM 0.7
    RAPTOR -2.2
    RPM -0.64

    I’m still failing to see how his perfectly-average TS% of 100 is anything but, uh, average.

    We’re actually not really past that. His numbers are above average in every metric in B-R, and RAPTOR and RPM are hardly better than what is in there…but hey, I’m debating with a guy who held on to the now dead and buried WP longer than anyone here.

    In any case, those are excellent numbers for a 22yo project with a 7’10” wingspan.

  107. Instead of trading for Bamba, I might just draft Queta. He looks pretty good with our Dallas pick.

  108. Hubert: I am perhaps being cynical, but the deal is so great it makes me wonder how good he can really be.

    The reviews are *so* strong. If he is that good and was in such demand, why accept that deal?

    Because for him it’s literally all upside too. He’s getting a bunch of money frontloaded now just for showing up, then he’ll go the olympics and summer training with a chance of staying, but if he gets cut he can simply go back to Spain and have plenty of suitors right away. He’s getting 3.4 million on top of what he already made this season in Spain, plus the exposure etc from being on a NBA team.

    For reference, Campazzo was even more highly rated in Spain probably and signed a 2 year deal at 6.4 million with thr Nuggets, which is about the rate unproven backup guards will go for in today’s NBA. For Luca it’s even better because he played the entire season already pretty much in the ACB so the money he’s getting for this season is just a big bonus, he would be crazy not to accept it.

  109. I see it as very limited upside for him, Bruno. If he proves himself, he’s on a shitty deal til he’s 28 years old.

    But that just may be the market rate for an unproven euro. Either that or the upfront money (plus the buyout, which is $2mm) is enough sweetener.

  110. Hey all- just checking in. Been busy helping my native country with COVID related issues (mostly healthcare / infrastructural issues), and wanted to say although I can’t watch every game, I’m thoroughly enjoying this season. Very happy with RJ, and Randle too – but too many of Randle’s shots look like low pctg shots that happen to fall.. I get it, his playmaking, passing, and shooting, especially from 3, can’t fall off too much. But hopefully I’m wrong and he doesn’t regress to a higher than previous mean (I’d probably trade him for a better young star but I’ve been wrong many times before)..

  111. Hubert:
    I see it as very limited upside for him, Bruno. If he proves himself, he’s on a shitty deal til he’s 28 years old.

    But that just may be the market rate for an unproven euro. Either that or the upfront money (plus the buyout, which is $2mm) is enough sweetener.

    It’s just the market rate, there’s no way he was getting anything more than this. Deck got 3.8 million with the Thunder, Campazzo 3.2, Satoransky got 2.8 in 2016, Melli got 4 million 2 years ago, there’s no precedent for anything higher than what the Knicks offered him, specially considering the buyout for his 4 year deal with Baskonia.

    It is a “shitty” deal for NBA standards, but it’s still huge for him, Mirotic has the current highest salary in the Euroleague and the reports have him at about 3.8 million USD for this season.

  112. welcome back, wet bandit!

    I’m going to excuse you for being wrong about Randle. I don’t think you’ve watched him enough. You’re at the stage I was at like 30 games ago. The more you watch this guy, the less you want to trade him.

  113. Bruno Almeida: It is a “shitty” deal for NBA standards, but it’s still huge for him, Mirotic has the current highest salary in the Euroleague and the reports have him at about 3.8 million USD for this season.

    fair enough. consider my cynicism erased. I will now proceed to unbridled enthusiasm.

  114. Berman of the Post:

    The Post has also learned Vildoza’s second season becomes fully guaranteed around the start of next season. The dates for next season’s opener has not been finalized but the Knicks will get a full training camp to evaluate Vildoza and can also watch him play for Argentina in the Olympics.

    The final two years of the pact become guaranteed after other future dates.

  115. Hubert:
    I see it as very limited upside for him, Bruno. If he proves himself, he’s on a shitty deal til he’s 28 years old.

    But that just may be the market rate for an unproven euro. Either that or the upfront money (plus the buyout, which is $2mm) is enough sweetener.

    If Luca flames out quickly he effectively gets a huge bonus for signing now rather than next year. If he gets cut after this year he gets $3.4M for doing nothing. After next year, $6.8M 1yr deal. After 2 years, is effectively $5.1M per year (more than Campazzo made). After the full contract, he’s only played an extra year versus Campazzo but got paid $6.8M for the extra year.

    Luca’s contract protects the downside in a huge way. That’s what you’ve been advocating Randle should do, and unlike Randle Luca is completely unproven with a much higher risk of being out of the league entirely.

  116. Z-man: His numbers are above average in every metric in B-R, and RAPTOR and RPM are hardly better than what is in there…but hey, I’m debating with a guy who held on to the now dead and buried WP longer than anyone here.

    k

    The best part of prospect masturbation is that you never have to be wrong. You can point to fit, culture, development or draft slot expectations as evidence. You know, Mo Bamba really could have been something if not for the non-falsifiable claims about what held him back.

    Keep squinting at that WS48 number. It suits your narrative, and I’m over here yawning. But as I said, trade a 2026 2nd and Knox for him. You could trade Knox for a ham sandwich and get good value.

  117. hi dudestown, my thoughts and prayers are with you…it’s good to hear your were able to be diagnosed and you’re taking action to get better…

    it’s been a while since i’ve had the camera up my butt…next time i speak with my doctor i’ll check to see if i’m due again…

  118. Z-man: You have to believe by now that Leon & Co. know what they’re doing.

    Yeah, i think there’s enough evidence Leon is doing a good work. But now comes the time to make the difference, we have 2 offseasons to make a splash before the (probable) Randle max contract. I’m getting a little anxious to know what he can do.

  119. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Keep squinting at that WS48 number.

    You mean the same number you harped on to dub Tyson Chandler and all-time great and the best player on his championship team? Nah, maybe I’ll stick with old reliable PER, the stat that takes a licking and keeps on ticking.

  120. Brian Cronin: The Hawks losing last night was so freaking huge. It’s hilarious how well the Knicks do on nights they don’t play.

    Yeah, and bear in mind that they have only 4 games left to play, so even if we lose @PHO and @LAC, we still have the same 4 games to match their record on those games. The problem is that all their games are at home and only 2 games (WAS x2) aren’t super easy, the other are ORL and HOU.

  121. Re playoff positioning… think it’s pretty much right that of either team sweeps the heat-Celts b2b, we’re pretty much assured of 6th. The losing team in that scenario has at least 33 losses… if they lose just one other game we can go 2-4 and finish above them. I’m going to go against all my pessimistic instincts though and hope they split, which I think gives us a better chance to finish 5th and avoid both in the first round. The Heat also have to play the sizers and the bucks so if they only take one off the Celts we should be able to finish above them. The Celts only other tough game is us so we may still have to win that one to finish above them.

    What’s crazy is the tiebreaker if the tie is more than 2-way. Place in division is first, and one of Atlanta or Miami is winning their division so one of them may we’ll take the tie-break. Then it’s winning % in games between the teams involved which is still all over the place (were 4-4 with one to play, hawks 4-5, Celtics 3-3 with 3 to play and Heat 4-3 with two to play). So if a tie is more than 2-way, basically it’s clear as mud right now where we’ll end up!!

  122. DudesTown: What was the deal, Brian? I was undergoing chemo treatments this week and lost track.

    Oh man, that’s tough. I’ve had to deal with it a lot of times on family members, so i hope you can be strong (this is not easy, i know) and best of luck to you.
    Last year a doctor diagnosed me with cancer, so i thought “well, maybe my time has come, but let’s fight it the best i can”. It’s hard if you think you have only 5 to 10 years, what will happen to my son, wife, stepdaughter, will i leave them well. A lot of thoughts come to one’s mind. But then i made more exams the following month and they ruled it benign. Either way, it changed the way i see life, and now i cherish a lot more “little things” than before it. And got a sense of urgency about my purpose in life (like having the family doing well, if i fail them).

  123. I like Bamba okay, but it’s hard to see how you get a big upside out of him. Next year is the last year of his rookie deal then you have to pay him whatever his market value is, and considering he has the lottery pedigree and decent stats I just don’t see how you sign him to a deal that gets you lots of surplus value. I’d prefer to stick with the Noel/Mitch tandem at C.

  124. Re the draft – I don’t have any knowledge of the players available but I will say this. Pelton’s pick value chart equates 22 and 23 (where we currently sit) with 11 in terms of expected value. Bearing in mind the team trading up usually pays a premium, that would suggest in a straight pick swap we’d struggle to get up higher than late lottery. To me, I’m not sure based on the mocks and analysis I’ve read that this is the draft to go from 22 and 23 to 13 or 14.

    If by adding some combo of Knox, the DET 2rp, or in a maybe Obi, plus taking in a bit of money, we can get into the top 5 then sure – but by all accounts there’s a big drop off from 6 onwards in this draft so I can’t see a team with a top 5 pick trading out for picks in the 20s and Knox! I’d love to walk away from this draft with Kuminga (obvs also with the higher top5 picks but think that’s a zero probability outcome) but I can’t see it happening.

  125. I’d be fine with taking 2pgs or 2 wings or one of each based on BPA – at 22 and 23 you’re surely taking one legit rotation player as a decent outcome and a starter/2 rotation guys as a great one? If the best two players there have some positional overlap I say take both on the basis that in the best case where they both have value, you can always trade one later.

  126. DudesTown:
    Instead of trading for Bamba, I might just draft Queta. He looks pretty good with our Dallas pick.

    And now you’re speaking to my heart. Of course we should get Queta. :D
    But yeah, he have a lot of potential and even more with Thibs, because he can be our Noah. He was one of NCAA’s best passing bigs this year. In the light of Sam Merrill leaving Utah State for the NBA last year, the coach re-defined the offense to flow through Queta and he did very well in that role.
    There’s a slight possibility that i’m biased when evaluating Queta. :P

  127. ***The best part of prospect masturbation is that you never have to be wrong. You can point to fit, culture, development or draft slot expectations as evidence. You know, Mo Bamba really could have been something if not for the non-falsifiable claims about what held him back.***

    I remain highly confused. I’m not fluffing Bamba, I am just trying to understand the process you are using for valuing certain players. Why is draft position important 3 years after the draft? Why aren’t per-minute and rate stats important anymore? (Is it the Drummond effect?) I’m not trying to fight or pick apart your arguments. I’m really just trying to understand them because I’ve respected and repeated a lot of what you (and others here) have posted over the years, but now I feel like I’m maybe not quite getting something.

    (I’m not even talking about whether the Knicks or anybody else should trade for Bamba. I was just under the impression that his advanced stats showed that he deserved more minutes. And now that he’s getting more minutes, he seems to be proving the stats correct. That’s all.)

  128. Your point about the value of getting trounced in the playoffs is valid. But I would argue that the lesson is the same no matter what round you get trounced in. So let’s get trounced in round 2, not round 1 :)

    It’s not about the draft. What I’m worried about is the FO thinking we’re further along in our rebuild than we are and starting to hand out dumb contracts to guys like Burks and Bullock.

  129. Vildoza seems to compare favorably / equally with Campazzo, who is playing 20 minutes/game for a title contender in Denver. If you can get that guy on a FOUR year non guaranteed deal for ~$3MM/year, I don’t know how that can be considered a bad deal. Unless I read it wrong, each year past this one is non guaranteed, meaning from the NYK perspective, it’s a year-to-year deal.

    As far as him vs Campazzo – the first thing is that he’s 25 years old and 6’3″ and Campazzo is 30+ and 5’10”. He might not be as good skill-wise as Campazzo but his size in and of itself will make him a more likely long-term and playoff contributor.

    I think it’s great work by the FO. It’s a free look at him as far as the team is concerned – it doesn’t even really cost Dolan anything (not that I care about that) because they were below the salary floor before the deal. Even in the unlikely scenario that they really need that cap space this summer, they can just decide not to pick up next year’s salary.

  130. I can’t even find my post from what, February, so I’m not even sure what I said. I assume I simply referenced him being a bust, which is what you call a 6th overall pick who plays about 800 minutes a year and doesn’t do much for the team during those minutes.

    I would have more of an indictment of the coaching staff had he lit up the opposition in those minutes and still not played much, and again, I don’t think we’re having this conversation before the last two games he played, which, again, represent a tenth of his overall shot attempts this year and would have in the previous two seasons as well.

  131. Z-man: You mean the same number you harped on to dub Tyson Chandler and all-time great and the best player on his championship team? Nah, maybe I’ll stick with old reliable PER, the stat that takes a licking and keeps on ticking.

    What does this have to do with Mo Bamba and your insistence that per-36 rebounding numbers should convince me that he’s not a bust?

  132. JK47:
    I like Bamba okay, but it’s hard to see how you get a big upside out of him. Next year is the last year of his rookie deal then you have to pay him whatever his market value is, and considering he has the lottery pedigree and decent stats I just don’t see how you sign him to a deal that gets you lots of surplus value. I’d prefer to stick with the Noel/Mitch tandem at C.

    Sure, so long as that tandem is available at the price we are paying. Noel may command more based on this season, and Mitch is surely worth more that we are paying him. As to Bamba and his draft position playing in to his next offer, I doubt it matters much.

    He’s a NYC kid and I’d like to have him IF Mitch and Noel don’t work out and we could get and retain him at a reasonable price.

  133. DudesTown may the force of Zeus and the Psychedelic power of Dionysus be with you.

  134. cybersoze: And now you’re speaking to my heart. Of course we should get Queta. :D
    But yeah, he have a lot of potential and even more with Thibs, because he can be our Noah. He was one of NCAA’s best passing bigs this year. In the light of Sam Merrill leaving Utah State for the NBA last year, the coach re-defined the offense to flow through Queta and he did very well in that role.
    There’s a slight possibility that i’m biased when evaluating Queta. :P

    Thank you for your kind words! Unfortunately for me, it’s pancreatic cancer which is difficult to catch early and is in stage four, meaning it’s already spread. I’ve undergone 14 rounds of chemo so far and the doc says it’s in remission but will never completely go away. Get checked early!

    As far as Queto goes, I was going to compare him to Noah but thought that I might get attacked in here so I left that part out. Lol.

  135. Knew Your Nicks:
    DudesTown may the force of Zeus and the Psychedelic power of Dionysus be with you.

    Wow! With Zeus and Dionysus on my side how can I lose?

  136. geo:
    hi dudestown, my thoughts and prayers are with you…it’s good to hear your were able to be diagnosed and you’re taking action to get better…

    it’s been a while since i’ve had the camera up my butt…next time i speak with my doctor i’ll check to see if i’m due again…

    Get checked geo. But also ask if there are other types that you can get checked for. I get a cancer antigen test that seems to detect any cancers and is a simple blood test. I don’t know if it’s generally available but why doesn’t everyone get this test every few months or so?

  137. DudesTown,

    I’m so sorry to hear this. I’m at a loss for what to say. I don’t know if you are religious. Half the time I’m not sure if I am either. But either way I’ll say a few prayers that this stays in remission and you enjoy a full life.

  138. Deeefense:
    DudesTown,

    I’m so sorry to hear this.I’m at a loss for what to say. I don’t know if you are religious.Half the time I’m not sure if I am either.But either way I’ll say a few prayers that this stays in remission and you enjoy a full life.

    Thanks, Strat. I appreciate it greatly!

  139. I get a cancer antigen test that seems to detect any cancers and is a simple blood test. I don’t know if it’s generally available but why doesn’t everyone get this test every few months or so?

    Something like that should automatically be part of your annual physical.

    I’m due for my colonoscopy. Actually I was due last year but put it off because of the pandemic. I’m in the process of catching up on all my doctors right now. Even an annual checkup with a dermatologist is important. I just had my checkup and he found a small basal cell cancer on my chest. I’m having the area treated next week. No biggie, but the earlier the better.

  140. The Honorable Cock Jowles: What does this have to do with Mo Bamba and your insistence that per-36 rebounding numbers should convince me that he’s not a bust?

    I don’t know how you define “bust.” No reasonable assessment of his 2200 minutes of NBA play at or before age 22 suggests that he’s a bust, regardless of his draft position.

    “Disappointment” for a #6 pick? Sure. Likely NBA rotation player? Almost certainly if he stays healthy. That’s a pretty average-ish outcome for a #6 pick. I mean, just in that draft, Marvin Bagley was picked at #2, and Carter, Sexton and Knox were 7,8,9. I would probably take Bamba right now over any of those guys.

  141. Deeefense: Something like that should automatically be part of your annual physical.

    I’m due for my colonoscopy.Actually I was due last year but put it off because of the pandemic. I’m in the process of catching up on all my doctors right now.Even an annual checkup with a dermatologist is important.I just had my checkup and he found a small basal cell cancer on my chest.I’m having the area treated next week.No biggie, but the earlier the better.

    Ask if the CA-19 cancer antigen test is available to you.

  142. @DudesTown. My best wishes for a full recovery. May the Knicks provide a balm to the rough side effects you are experiencing.

  143. Bo Nateman:
    @DudesTown. My best wishes for a full recovery. May the Knicks provide a balm to the rough side effects you are experiencing.

    Thank you, Bo. I can definitely use a little balm. :)

  144. Prayers up for your healing and peace, DudesTown. Thank you for allowing us to support you.

  145. So sorry to hear that DudesTown. I hope you’re getting all the support you need from everyone – family, friends, and medical team.

    I think CA-19 cancer antigen test is only used for monitoring existing cancers because it’s very non-specific. Lot’s of things other than cancer will cause elevated levels which would lead to a very high rate of false alarms. So it’s not good as a screening test for people that don’t have cancer already. Using it as a routine screening tool would create a lot of serious psychological distress, major costs to patients to investigate the false alarms, and even to unnecessary invasive procedures.

    Anyhow, I’m really glad yours in remission and hope it stays that way for good!

  146. Thank you, Doug Chu.

    So Unreason, how is someone supposed to identify certain cancers quickly enough to combat them before they spread? Is it impossible?

  147. Dudestown, my heart goes out to you. It’s great you are in remission. May it never come back!

  148. Stay strong, DudesTown! In this dark time, just remember how quickly and suddenly things can turn for the better — it was only a few short months ago we KBers were playing the tank-a-thon!

  149. DudesTown:
    Thank you Knicks fan not in NJ.

    Yes Donnie, miracles do happen.

    best wishes dude…one thought and perhaps you already went down this path…but some chemo patients report good success with medicinal marijuana…might take the edge off the chemo and watching elf…

  150. DudesTown your toughness is admirable as hell, and you’ve got an army people who care too much about the New York Knicks by your side. Continue to kick this thing’s ass.

    Re Bamba: he’s definitely intriguing to some degree but Donnie what I think you’re missing is his scoring efficiency is pretty mediocre for a big these days. Even if you assume his .579 figure from this year is more representative than his .553 career figure (I do not watch enough Orlando Magic games to have a clue), that’s still below average for a center these days. I’m not even sure I’d give up the DET pick for him given his contract situation.

  151. DudesTown – I’m two years post-diagnosis with Stage 3 colon cancer. After surgery, 12 rounds of chemo and about 6 months “on the bag”, all of my health news is good. I hope that you recover quickly and completely.

    Solidarity.

  152. Dammit, DudesTown formerly NetsTown, I hope you beat this cancer. It can and is done regularly — You’ve got this!!!
    Boy, do I feel like a wuss now for whining about my 2nd vaccine shot.
    FYI I’ve heard the same thing about medicinal marijuana. And I’m going to take your advice re: the blood test.

    EDIT: Right on, Ephus!

  153. Interesting quote from Zach Lowe:

    mong in-season trades, only the Brooklyn Nets’ acquisition of James Harden has had a bigger impact than New York acquiring Rose

  154. Bondy:

    Tom Thibodeau calls Luca Vildoza “a summer thing” in terms of evaluating the Argentine for the future. It doesn’t sound like he has any plans of playing him this season or the playoffs. That was expected.

  155. oh yeah dudestown, now seems like a good time to mention it…

    I remember thinking after you had said – “don’t call me dude”, hmmmm, what’s wrong with dude

    coming from new york i think of saying dude sort of like using the word man (yeah man)…kind of an informal way of addressing folks (unlike calling someone “guy”, which is a lot less friendly)…

    i had forgotten that at one time in the past the word “dude” was analogous with calling some a “city slicker”…sort of implying they might look good and dress nicely, but, they were pretty useless in practical situations…you know, like manly stuff like shoeing and riding a horse or fixing a leaky faucet, none of which i myself can actually do :)

    my favorite use of the word dude in a song – bruce’s Spirit in the Night:
    Crazy Janey and her mission man were back in the alley tradin’ hands
    ‘long came Wild Billy with his friend G-man all duded up for Saturday night

  156. geo:
    oh yeah dudestown, now seems like a good time to mention it…

    I remember thinking after you had said – “don’t call me dude”, hmmmm, what’s wrong with dude

    coming from new york i think of saying dude sort of like using the word man (yeah man)…kind of an informal way of addressing folks (unlike calling someone “guy”, which is a lot less friendly)…

    i had forgotten that at one time in the past the word “dude” was analogous with calling some a “city slicker”…sort of implying they might look good and dress nicely, but, they were pretty useless in practical situations…you know, like manly stuff like shoeing and riding a horse or fixing a leaky faucet, none of which i myself can actually do :)

    my favorite use of the word dude in a song – bruce’s Spirit in the Night:
    Crazy Janey and her mission man were back in the alley tradin’ hands
    ‘long came Wild Billy with his friend G-man all duded up for Saturday night

    You’re alright, dude.

  157. Immanuel Quickley and Alec Burks are out tonight for the Knicks against the Suns.

    This seemed to be coming, but it still sucks. The Frankie Smokes Game?

  158. i love the end of threads where a new thread is coming soon, it’s like an invitation to write weird shit :)

    other favorite uses of the word dude:
    – jeffrey lebowski
    quincy jones

  159. DudesTown: So Unreason, how is someone supposed to identify certain cancers quickly enough to combat them before they spread? Is it impossible?

    It varies from cancer to cancer. Some screening programs are really effective. Cervical cancers used to be one of the more common diseases for women to die from. Tests that detect early-stage changes in cervical cells – pap smears and their successors – work well enough. They don’t have to be great because most cervical cancers usually take a really long time time to develop – many years or even decades. And treatment at an early stage is very effective. That’s the ideal combination of conditions for effective screening. So, now death from cervical cancer is relatively rare in every county with a screening program. Most screening programs for other cancers aren’t as effective because one or another of those conditions isn’t as good – tests aren’t good at detecting early stage disease, the cancer develops faster, or early treatment isn’t as effective. And unfortunately, there aren’t any good screening tests at all for many types of cancer. So, it’s possible, but only in some cases and only to varying degrees in those cases. Plenty of room for improvement.

  160. Unreason: It varies from cancer to cancer. Some screening programs are really effective. Cervical cancers used to be one of the more common diseases for women to die from. Tests that detect early-stage changes in cervical cells– pap smears and their successors – work well enough. They don’t have to be great because most cervical cancers usually take a really long time time to develop – many years or even decades. And treatment at an early stage is very effective. That’s the ideal combination of conditions for effective screening. So, now death from cervical cancer is relatively rare in every county with a screening program. Most screening programs for other cancers aren’t as effective because one or another of those conditions isn’t as good – tests aren’t good at detecting early stage disease, the cancer develops faster, or early treatment isn’t as effective. And unfortunately, there aren’t any good screening tests at all for many types of cancer. So, it’s possible, but only in some cases and only to varying degrees in those cases. Plenty of room for improvement.

    I actually just got done with a project involving a company that dealt with early detection through genetic testing…this is one of a few companies that are making it happen
    https://archerdx.com/

  161. @Pepper. Cool. But looks more like tumor profiling for targeting effective therapies for people whose cancer has been detected rather than population-level screening for early detection. Fleixible tools like these are a growing trend for pathology departments to role their own next gen sequencing panels rather than relying on fixed offerings restricted to the favorite couple of hundred gene variants from one of the major vendors in this space.

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