Knicks Morning News (2016.12.27)

  • [ESPN] Tuesday’s Knicks News: Jennings, Melo not on same page
    (Tuesday, December 27, 2016 6:13:37 AM)

    Tuesday’s Knicks News: Jennings, Melo not on same page

  • [NYTimes] After an N.B.A. Christmas, the Best Games This Week
    (Monday, December 26, 2016 6:49:25 PM)

    The Cleveland Cavaliers edged the Golden State Warriors on Sunday. Can the improved Boston Celtics expose Cleveland’s weaknesses on Thursday?

  • [NYPost] New generation of Knicks loving life in New York City
    (Monday, December 26, 2016 5:45:58 PM)

    Derrick Rose prefers Manhattan over the slower pace of Westchester. Because the hustle and bustle of Manhattan is still less stressful than his days living in his hometown Chicago. “I love it,’’ Rose, in his first season with the Knicks, told The Post. “I love my building. My neighborhood. My neighbors. They let me walk…

  • [NYPost] Brandon Jennings breaks ranks with Carmelo over Knicks’ issues
    (Monday, December 26, 2016 3:07:54 PM)

    Knicks point guard Brandon Jennings apparently believes differently than Carmelo Anthony regarding critiques that too much one-on-one play existed in their 119-114 loss to Boston on Christmas. Jennings signaled the rips were merited. After the Knicks mustered only 11 assists Sunday, Jennings liked a tweet from the Bullyup.com Twitter handle criticizing their style: “KNICKS Rely…

  • [NYPost] Courtney Lee struggles with Knicks orders to shoot more
    (Monday, December 26, 2016 6:51:09 AM)

    Get greedy. Courtney Lee, the Knicks’ starting shooting guard, has made the rounds of the NBA, but this season is the first one in which his coach has begged him to take more shots — contested shots, that is. Lee is second in the NBA in 3-point field-goal percentage at 46.7 percent, and Knicks coach…

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks know poor defense is their weakness
    (Monday, December 26, 2016 7:33:06 PM)

    If the Knicks asked for anything for Christmas, it should have been to play better defense. Maybe they should make that their New Year’s resolution.

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    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    132 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2016.12.27)”

    1. Oh boy…now folks are gonna make a big deal out of Jennings liking a tweet regarding Knicks ball movement. The guy is our leading assist man and a point guard- he should have something to say! And I just LOVE the way the Post says he broke rank lol. Flat out ridiculous! Everybody and their grandmother knows the team needs to move the ball better. I do like KP and Rose saying it wasn’t just ball movement though. Those 2, along with Noah, KOQ, and Lee are keeping the focus on defense. Hopefully it pays off soon

    2. I watched Atlanta and Minnesota play last night, and the Hawks got smashed… this next game will be an absolute must-win.

      they have been pretty decent lately, with wins over Toronto, Milwaukee, OKC and Denver, but still.

    3. After losing to the Nets last night (who are terrible, but admittedly are looking a little better now that they have a pretty full roster for the first time since the season began), the Hornets are 17-14 and are the #4 team in the Eastern Conference. The Knicks, at 16-14, are #5.

      Check out the records for #6 in the East to #12 in the East…

      #6 Hawks 15-16
      #7 Bulls 15-16
      #8 Bucks 14-15
      #9 Pacers 15-17
      #10 Wizards 14-16
      #11 Pistons 15-18
      #12 Magic 15-18

      That is not normal. That is some weird ass shit right there. Holy parity, Batman!

      And yeah, because of that, the Knicks really need to kick the Hawks’ ass on Wednesday.

    4. The Pistons took the opportunity facing a tired Cleveland team and beat them too…

      I think the Magic are the only team in that group that’s overperforming and will most likely end up tanking… the Pistons, Wizards Bulls and Pacers pretty much have no choice other than going all in for a playoff spot, and the Bucks are probably ready to be good this season… this is a dangerous situation, specially if the Bulls somehow figure out that they could be one good trade away form being a legit good team.

    5. Otto Porter is playing so well that the Wizards might have to max him out, as well. That’s kind of nuts. Are they seriously going to max three guys out and still not be really all that good?

    6. It’s been nice to get a good month out of Derrick Rose and to see Noah rounding himself into shape. That said, we need more Derrick Rose and Courtney Lee. For the month of December in 8 and 10 games respectively, Rose and Lee have TS%’s of .565 and .604. Derrick Rose doesn’t need to take more shots but Courtney Lee needs more opportunities to shoot the ball. It doesn’t make sense that Lee averages 3.2 3PA a night. He needs to be shooting 6-7 3s a game because he’s making them at a 46% clip this season. A Courtney Lee 3PA is a better shot than a Melo-iso or a Porzingis long 2 or whatever it is Noah tries to do when his number is called. I feel like we don’t shoot enough 3s. 19th in the league in 3PA isn’t where we should be if we want to be a good offense. I know a lot of that is because Derrick Rose doesn’t shoot 3s, but we have enough shooters to make that a major part of our offense.

      Defensively, we need to deny penetration and stop messing up the rotations. It’s gotta be in the scouting report now that 5 passes and the Knicks will leave somebody open for 3. We let Marcus Smart, who shoots under 30% from 3, beat us at home on Christmas from 3. That’s terrible. I really don’t understand why we’re so bad defensively when we upgraded the defense from top to bottom on the roster. All of Calderon, Afflalo, Lopez, Galloway, Seraphin, and Derrick Williams were replaced by better defenders. Well maybe not Galloway because even though Holiday is a better defender at the 2, he’s worlds better than Jennings (who might be the worst half court defender I’ve seen). Hopefully they figure it out on either end of the ball because there is a lot of improvement to be made.

    7. I agree, but Porter might actually bet he best player of all 3… he has a frankly insane .642 ts this season that was bound to regress but still hasn’t, and he might really just be an elite shooter.

      I have more than my fair share of issues with Wall’s game, but Beal has also been fantastic since he got healthy, and Gortat is rebounding really well… the thing is that the Wizards are the Wizards and pretty much tied the rest of their cap with Mahinmi’s ridiculous contract… it’s not impossible that if they somehow manage to send Mahinmi away they could be a really good team.

    8. The Wizards have to trade somebody. Both Wall and Beal are overrated but at least Wall plays 70+ games a year. You can’t give those three guys big contracts and be terrible. Somebody has to be traded.

    9. That Post article is, of course, a Marc Berman piece of crap.

      As for tomorrow night’s game, just like the home game against Boston, I designated this game as a loss before the season started. I win would be huge, but this is a tough game.

      Also, that loss by Cleveland was without LeBron. I’m not telling any of you anything you don’t know already, but sans LeBron, the Cavs are merely pedestrian. Irving and Love are really good, but most teams have someone at that level. Nobody else has LeBron. As much as I despise him, he’s that much of a difference maker.

    10. The Wizards have to trade somebody. Both Wall and Beal are overrated but at least Wall plays 70+ games a year. You can’t give those three guys big contracts and be terrible. Somebody has to be traded.

      Logically it has to be Beal, right? Injury prone and only one above average skill- GETANG POINTZZ! And he’s really not that great at that either. He’s a great 2-3 option on a team, but the problem is the Wiz really don’t have a true top option. I trust John Wall & Porter, but I’m not sure they can be top options. If they can convince a team like SAC that he and a 1st are worth Boogie- or maybe Beal and a 1st for Blake Griffin- they will have something. Not likely to happen, but it’s worth a try

    11. Wall has been better this season, he’s chucking less bad shots, is posting his usual high asssist and steal numbers and his ts% is .030 better than his career average.

      with the way Porter is playing now, it’s no question that Beal should be the one to be traded… if they can somehow package Beal + Mahinmi for a very good PF or C, even if it costs them a 1st rounder, they could be scary.

      the thing is Wall tries to play the game right, he drives and dishes pretty well, is a monster in transition and occasionally plays even top notch defense, the problem is that his shot selection is still shaky and since he does so much on offense, he disappears often on D… maybe if he had a very good scoring option in the frontcourt it would help a lot, even a player like Millsap who’s probably available for the right price.

    12. Anyone read the latest from Karl about how the NBA has a PED problem with its players?

      I’m talking about performance-enhancing drugs—like steroids, human growth hormone, and so on. It’s obvious some of our players are doping. How are some guys getting older—yet thinner and fitter? How are they recovering from injuries so fast? Why the hell are they going to Germany in the off-season? I doubt it’s for the sauerkraut. More likely it’s for the newest, hard-to-detect blood boosters and PEDs they have in Europe.

    13. . Are they seriously going to max three guys out and still not be really all that good?

      That’s our move!

    14. @12 it seems a little paranoid-american. for me to be honest… I mean, he talks about germany like if there couldn’t possibly be better technology in sports medicine in comparison to the US… like if europe was a mysterious place of witchcraft and liberal values not to be trusted lol.

      but well, the NBA is probably the easiest league in all major sports to dodge drug testinfg, so I wouldn’t be surprised if PEDs were a regular thing in some way.

    15. There are so many talented players in the 2017 draft that I think we’re going to get a stud with our first pick. Will also get 2 big talents in the second round that might take a little time to pay off, possibly including another Euro.

    16. Even if you are right and it’s a great draft, there’s no benefit to an average team with one first rounder. Your expected improvement relative to the league is nil.

    17. ptmilo, I don’t think that it works that way. Not every team drafts well or fits a need well. We will do both and catapult to near greatness.

    18. As long as we don’t draft some awkward looking senior prospect like Jerian Grant again I’m cool. That one still feels like Phil went “oh this guy has a relative who played in the triangle” and then realized that summer he’s too old to be making jump passes all the time.

    19. I don’t know what you guys have against Jerian Grant. He’s a late first round pick turning into an NBA role player, which is a reasonable outcome for that sort of pick. From the Knicks point of view they basically turned THJ into Holiday, which is a very good outcome.

    20. I don’t know what you guys have against Jerian Grant.

      Nothing. Its what people have against posters who claimed that he was an asset and better than Derrick Rose

    21. Fair enough. I wasn’t happy with the trade, but I never thought Grant was better than Rose

    22. gotta be in the scouting report now that 5 passes and the Knicks will leave somebody open for 3.

      When’s this ever gonna change?!!

      The main thing holding the Knicks back, and it ain’t news to anyone out there, is defense. Penetration, open 3’s, lack of steals, and opponents cleaning up the offensive glass. It’s every single game. Once Noah gets more into his groove and feels more comfortable being the vocal defensive leader he used to be (I still think his defense will be better, but his defensive leadership should come back too). Motivation/effort is very important to have a good defense, as well as schemes. I’m not sold on Hornacek as a defensive minded coach, and Rambis’s teams as defensive coordinator were championship teams under Phil.

      A team with Rose/Lee/Melo/KP/Noah should ABSOLUTELY be better than they have been. I think that’s the main issue. I think Melo hasn’t been putting in enough effort defensively, less than last year, but the others are above average (for a PG Rose isn’t that bad).

    23. Are the Clippers really going to trade Blake Griffin? Jesus, this might be our chance to get Melo out of here when he leaves. He would leave to play in LA and Paul wants another scorer.

    24. @20 – We need to get you drug tested. I must have too much time on my hands because I just ran a statistical analysis of WS, WS48 and VORP based on position drafted for every player drafted since 2000. The numbers are below. What is clear is that if you want an elite player, you better be picking 1-5. After the 10th pick, the VORP drops significantly.

      Pk WS WS/48 VORP
      1 46.6 0.13 17.96
      2 30.6 0.09 6.83
      3 41.2 0.10 12.94
      4 36.7 0.11 10.97
      5 32.6 0.09 10.79
      6 18.7 0.08 5.75
      7 28.9 0.08 7.86
      8 18.3 0.07 3.90
      9 28.2 0.10 7.73
      10 22.4 0.08 5.80
      11 12.1 0.08 2.13
      12 13.6 0.07 1.84
      13 14.5 0.07 2.16
      14 15.2 0.08 2.23
      15 15.5 0.07 3.24
      16 10.9 0.03 1.42
      17 14.6 0.06 3.71
      18 19.8 0.08 4.45
      19 16.3 0.06 1.11
      20 10.7 0.05 0.94
      21 17.2 0.04 5.09
      22 10.9 0.06 2.33
      23 14.4 0.07 2.22
      24 14.4 0.07 3.33
      25 12.8 0.06 3.98
      26 19.8 0.08 3.38
      27 11.5 0.07 2.01
      28 15.8 0.06 2.31
      29 5.8 0.05 0.39
      30 15.6 0.07 4.88
      31 5.4 0.04 -0.23
      32 2.1 0.02 -0.11
      33 7.9 0.06 0.54
      34 10.7 0.05 2.31
      35 8.0 0.05 2.29
      36 5.2 0.05 0.13
      37 10.4 0.06 2.15
      38 7.4 0.03 1.24
      39 4.9 0.02 0.41
      40 5.5 0.02 0.79
      41 4.5 0.04 0.13
      42 4.9 0.05 0.91
      43 9.8 -0.05 2.61
      44 2.5 0.05 0.31
      45 11.4 0.07 3.10
      46 2.4 0.03 0.87
      47 7.9 0.01 2.54
      48 4.5 0.02 1.76
      49 5.9 0.03 0.74
      50 2.9 0.03 0.12
      51 3.9 0.02 1.18
      52 2.7 0.01 -0.13
      53 0.1 -0.01 -0.16
      54 0.0 0.01 -0.05
      55 5.1 0.00 0.70
      56 4.7 0.04 1.12
      57 3.2 0.02 0.74
      58 0.2 0.01 -0.09
      59 -0.0 -0.01 -0.04
      60 4.2 0.03 0.98

    25. For what it’s worth, CP3/Redick/Pierce/Melo/Jordan would be monstrous offensively

      The Clippers would be pretty strong with Melo playing next to Griffin, Paul and Jordan…

      both comments written in the hope that just maybe someone from the clippers organization stumbles upon this page ;-)

    26. Gem from the NYPost:

      “We have to stay with it,’’ Anthony said of the 1-on-1 play. “If something is working you don’t want to go away from it.’’

    27. “gotta be in the scouting report now that 5 passes and the Knicks will leave somebody open for 3.”
      Yet, somehow, the Knicks are 10th in the league in 3PT% against and are 13th in the number of 3 pointers surrendered per game.

    28. @39 yeah, that quote is right on point to piss me off, thanks Melo.

      on Griffin, I’m kinda on the fence on him… he’s not a great offensive player (.543 ts% this season), he’s not rebounding as he once did in his career and he’s really not a great defender.

      he is younger than Melo and could still maybe improve, and obviously his rebounding numbers will suffer from playing minutes alongside one of the best rebounders in the game… but he also plays with the best pure Point Guard in his game, and I have a feeling he would struggle hard without CP3.

      his stats from the last 3 years are pretty much the same, which shows some stagnation (even though he missed so many games last season).

      if the Knicks could somehow convince the Clippers to give us a future first rounder or J.J Redick, I’d be up for it… actually, the Knicks should go after J.J anyway, he would fit so well with the Knicks imo.

    29. As long as we don’t draft some awkward looking senior prospect like Jerian Grant again I’m cool. That one still feels like Phil went “oh this guy has a relative who played in the triangle” and then realized that summer he’s too old to be making jump passes all the time.

      These comparative stats will shock most of you. They represent Grant’s stats for the last 7 games of last season when he started compared to Rose’s stats in December per nbawowy. These were the only games Grant started as a Knick. KP was out and Melo was on the court for about 1/2 of Grant’s 208 minutes.

      ROSE….. MP(198)…TS(55.9)…eFG(52.1)…PPP(1.1)…USG(26.9)…TOV%(8.1)…..Dime%(20.7)…TRB%(6.5)…STLR(.7)

      GRANT..MP(208)…TS(57.4)…eFG(52.7)…PPP(1.1)…USG(20.8)…TOV%(10.9)…Dime%(21.2)…TRB%(5.9)…STLR(2.7)

      Look similar? That’s because Grant and Rose play a very similar role in that type of offense. The only real difference is that Grant is a better defender which is not adequately reflected in those stats. And BTW Grant’s got a higher WS/48 than Rose so far this season even though he’s been playing off the ball a lot which doesn’t suit his skill set. Bottom Line: Grant would have given similar offense and better defense than Rose for 2m versus 20m and we wouldn’t have had to give up a valuable trade chip in Lopez. Isiah-level bad! #trustclarence

    30. @42

      shh, don’t come here with numbers, you forgot that Grant doesn’t get pointzz and his numbers would SURELY drop with more usage, right, so he should be the biggest bust ever.

    31. if the Knicks could somehow convince the Clippers to give us a future first rounder or J.J Redick, I’d be up for it… actually, the Knicks should go after J.J anyway, he would fit so well with the Knicks imo.

      I think the move to make is involving a third partner like Boston in a three way trade. I doubt the Clippers are going to want Melo by himself due to the problems with salaries. But the Celtics have draft picks and a lot of players to make a trade scenario possible. The NBA trade tracker has this as a possibility:

      Celtics get Griffin and Mbah a Moute, Clippers get Melo and the Nets first round 2018 pick, Knicks get Johnson, Smart, and Olynyk plus the Nets first round 2017 pick.

    32. As I said last week, the big defensive issue is that we’re fouling too much. There was a comment made that per-game numbers are meaningless when I posted that and I didn’t have time to respond then. FT is one area where per-game does really matter. It matters for 2 huge reasons:
      1) Players that get into foul trouble either head to the bench or play with one had tied behind the back.
      2) Excessive fouls means that we’re always in the penalty (as Clyde says, “The Knicks never have a foul to give).

      Looking at the team defensive stats on ESPN, the Knicks are ranked 25th. They’ve allowed 20.1 FTM. Only one team with a better defensive rating has allowed 20+ points per game from the free throw line. That fluky team is Memphis (rated #2 defense). But they only allow 78.8 shots per game (compared to the Knicks 87.1).

    33. @44 I’d make that inmediately, then try to deal Lee for whatever he is worth (he would be valuable for a lot of teams) and get Redick in free agency next year

    34. This next set of stats courtesy of boxscoregeeks will shock you! Click here to view how WP48 ranks Noah, KP, Rose. WS/48 view melo and KP much different. Paging Jowles…cue debate about “interaction” effects.

    35. @47

      well, they called Biyombo the best player in the Raptors last season and DeRozan’s contract one of the worst in the NBA… and yet the Raptors were 18-12 in last season’s first 30 games and are 22-8 this season.

      so yeah, they might bring valuable stats, but they miss a lot also.

    36. That would be a brilliant trade for the knicks which makes it obvious to me that it would never happen

    37. #46

      I would too. I think the deal is somewhat fair considering where each respective franchise is right now in their development. Clippers are wanting to shake things up to win now and make Chris Paul happy so he doesn’t leave via FA – Melo is the perfect match for them. An added high lotto pick will help them deal with getting older for the chance of winning now. Celtics want to take the next step into contention around a bonified superstar. Griffin would make a nice core to build around with Thomas and Horford. Knicks need to get younger an deeper ASAP. Smart would help our backcourt defense a lot, Olynyk is a serviceable backup C to have after Willy, Johnson’s a vet whose contract expires in a year, and that 2018 Nets pick gives us a shot at getting a PG of the future.

    38. #49

      Yeah, it is contingent upon Melo wanting out and Phil being ready to admit that this team isn’t built to be serious contender – but if there’s a place where Melo would rather be than NYC it would be with his BFF Paul in Hollywood and if there’s an opportunity to truly remold the team in Phil’s image it would be through this deep ass draft.

    39. then try to deal Lee for whatever he is worth (he would be valuable for a lot of teams) and get Redick in free agency next year

      Seriously asking because I don’t know the answer – regarding Redick and C.Lee, is one significantly better or worse than the other? I always thought they had similar games, and Lee is actually a year younger.

    40. I think Redick is definitely better.

      Lee is shooting a similar percentage to Redick in 3 pointers, but his best mark before that was .408, while Redick has been over .430 pretty much since he came to LA… Redick also does it over more minutes and more attempts (5.7 3pa for Redick, 3.2 for Lee), and he shoots 2-pointers and free throws much better than Lee (.619 ts% for Redick, .559 for Lee).

      I also think Redick is a better secondary ball handler than Lee, while Lee might have a small edge over him defensively.

      There’s no indication in his career that Lee will sustain his elite 3 point shooting, while Redick has been pretty consistent over the last couple of years.

    41. Thanks. Ya I remembered reading that Lee was at the top of the league for 3pt% this year, but didnt realize that was such an outlier from the rest of his career. That said, just based off his percentages FOR this year, I’m sure we’d all agree that Lee should probably be shooting more 3’s than he currently is. Now whether that’s a personal or system flaw, who knows. Redick could theoretically come here and see his attempts drop, and Lee could end up in LA and see his attempts go up. That would suck.

      Is Lee one of these players that could shoot more and should shoot more but after 8 years in the league, probably just is who he is?

    42. I do think Lee should shoot more… even though .467 this year is an outlier, he’s still a .388 career 3-point shooter, that’s pretty good still.

      the difference is that a lot of Redick’s 3s come from Paul running the pick and roll with either Griffin or Jordan, the best passing PG in the league with two of the absolute best roll men, and Redick is incredibly efficient in those situations as a spot up man.

      Rose is not that player and the Knicks barely run the pick and roll, so it’s really hard to set Lee to be in similar situations… that said, I would still love to see some sets run specifically to give Lee a good look from 3, it’s an underutilized weapon.

    43. I just don’t see Boston giving up the Nyets haul plus serviceable players for Blake Griffin. I think Melo would jump at the chance to go to the paper clips. There is no heads up trade possible with LA because the only contracts that match Melo are the Austin Rivers and Jamal Crawford’s odious 24 M worth for the next 3 years…. yikes.

      I would move Melo to the clips for their ’20 and 22 Ist rounders if there was a way….

      Keep Unicorn, WHG and KOQ all young, talented bigs on cheap contracts and trade everyone else off for whatever picks can be had and build a great team for KP’s prime….

    44. I don’t make that trade unless we get the better of Boston/Brooklyn’s 2017 pick AND Brooklyn’s 2018 pick. The Knicks are the team rebuilding in that trade scenario and I like the players in this draft too much to pass up on a top 5 pick. If the Clippers want it they can have our 2017 1st but I don’t budge on getting every Brooklyn pick I can get my hands on. You don’t wanna do the deal then I walk away with Melo and be satisfied.

      Of course any Melo trade is contingent on Melo’s NTC which means we wouldn’t be in a position of power at all. But yeah in any fantasy deal I’m taking Brooklyn’s 2017 and Brooklyn’s 2018 pick.

      I do think the Knicks should try to work a 3 team deal with Milwaukee and Charlotte where Charlotte gets Monroe, we get Middleton, and Milwaukee gets O’Quinn, Lee, and MKG. Milwaukee would get a lot better but Middleton seems like exactly what the Knicks need. No idea if Charlotte and Milwaukee do that trade but fantasy trades don’t have to make sense.

    45. And Boston definitely makes that trade. It gets them a serious big three and clears up cap space so they can grab another player or two in free agency. Thomas, Bradley, Crowder, Griffin, and Horford would be a great team by itself and that’s worth trading picks that don’t even belong to you when you suck at drafting in the first place.

    46. @59
      Why would Boston do that trade, They get Griffin an injury prone player who is great jumping over a car but really has no go to move and has played with the best point guard since Magic. For him the give up 2 high (very high) lottery picks plus their entire bench which whipped the Knicks bench 2 nights ago.

      I hope you are right, though…..

    47. the difference is that a lot of Redick’s 3s come from Paul running the pick and roll with either Griffin or Jordan, the best passing PG in the league with two of the absolute best roll men, and Redick is incredibly efficient in those situations as a spot up man.

      Reddick also works his ass off off of the ball- if Lee had the same activity level I think their usage numbers would be a lot closer. I hated Reddick coming out of Duke but I now have a lot of respect for how hard he works. Also, while I guess I’d take a high pick + scraps over Griffin in that fantasy deal (mainly because of KP’s timeline) but Griffin himself would be very hard to pass up even with the injury risk. He’s a great passer, especially on the interior and with his post game would look very, very nice with KP at the five.

    48. For him the give up 2 high (very high) lottery picks plus their entire bench which whipped the Knicks bench 2 nights ago.

      And what have the Celtics ever gotten with all of these high picks they’ve accumulated the past few years since 2014? Look at this sorry list and tell me if you wouldn’t trade each and every player in that group for two years of Blake Griffin and Mbah a Moute?

      Fans always make this mistake of overvaluing picks. You can count on one hand the number of players taken since Griffin in the NBA draft who match his value. Ange will replace his lost bench depth with smart picks, he won’t find core perennial All-Stars like Griffin to build around so easily.

    49. I don’t make that trade unless we get the better of Boston/Brooklyn’s 2017 pick AND Brooklyn’s 2018 pick.

      The sheer depth and amount of talent in the 2017 draft makes the 2017 first round Nets pick more valuable to us. It would give our team some major draft capital (one lottery pick, one mid to late first round pick, two second rounders) to trade with come next offseason.

    50. No way Boston makes that trade. The 2017 Nyets pick is gold and there’s NO WAY they want to give it to the Knicks for old, broken down players.

    51. And then the first thing I’d do upon trading for Smart is to get assign his ass to guard KP in practice over and over and over again until KP learns how to handle smaller, tougher defenders in the block.

    52. Blake Griffin is old and broken down now? LOL. Wow. He’s entering his physical prime at 27 years old. I guess Isiah Thomas at the same age is old and Al Horford is ancient at 30.

    53. When the Celtics take Josh Jackson from KU this year (he’s going to suck; he’s an average NBA athlete with no moves taking advantage of college kids) and some other terrible player in 2018 we’ll discuss the merits of keeping their picks instead of trading them for Blake Griffin.

    54. What could the knicks get for Lee, O’Quinn, and a future 1st? Would a team jump on the chance to get Lee’s high 3pt percentage and add O’Quinn rebounding and offense off the bench?

    55. Thomas, Bradley, Crowder, Griffin, and Horford is already a core that would make Boston the 2nd best team in the Eastern Conference with a still solid bench of guys like Rozier and Brown in the backcourt and Jerebko, Mickey, Green, Zeller, and Mbah a Moute in the frontcourt.

      They would just need to bolster their guard depth in the draft and FA to be an elite team.

    56. the only thing that would motivate Boston to trade the Nets 1st rounder in 2017 is that this draft is incredibly deep in exactly the one position they don’t need, which is PG… it has Josh Jackson, who I personally don’t think is even good, and maybe Jonathan Isaac and Jayson Tatum, which would both overlap massively with Jaylen Brown, who the Celtics just spent a 3rd overall on. There’s also Malik Monk, but Avery Bradley is an excellent player.
      Harry Giles is not even looking like a top 5 (maybe not even top 10) pick and everyone else would be massive reaches.

      I think it does make sense to trade it, it’s gotta be the most valuable non-superstar asset in the league right now and the Celtics are already a good team; let’s say they add Boogie and he turns out to be good, they might even be better than Toronto.

    57. @Knicks Should Tank

      Yes, I’d be willing to trade 2017 first round picks to get the Nets pick from Boston in that three team deal. It would be so worth having a chance to pick one of the elite PGs in this draft.

    58. The Celtics also have the draft rights to two potentially useful players, Ante Zizic and Guerschon Yabusele. Zizic in particular looks like a good prospect to me– he has played very well in the Turkish league this year and has shown development. The knock on Yabusele was that he was kind of chubs and needed to get into shape, but he showed up to his Chinese league team looking much more muscular. So that’s two more assets they have to work with if they want to pull off a trade.

    59. @74

      yeah, apparently he lost more than 10 pounds… he’s on Yao’s team, which is a special case for chinese teams in the sense that they have a very good medical department, or so I read.

    60. With the Bulls and Hawks falling below .500, the Knicks record against .500+ teams is now 2-10.

      Cleveland 2x
      Boston 2x
      Raptors
      Charlotte
      Gsw
      Utah
      Rockets
      OKC

      Yeah, those are teams better than the Knicks right now. I know you are doing your whole pessimist thing but i thing its more important to beat teams under .500 to build up wins. They will steal some of these tougher ones going forward and will be icing

    61. And what have the Celtics ever gotten with all of these high picks they’ve accumulated the past few years since 2014?

      The answer is…. with all those picks you listed, they’ve only had ONE in the top 5 in the last decade (Jaylen Brown) and he is a 20 yr old one and done college player where the jury is definitely still out.

      None of the other myriad of picks is likely to be as high as both the Nyets picks.

    62. Out of that list I feel like we should have beaten Utah and Boston. The rest are clearly better.

    63. @68 – luc mbah a moute is 30. Blake is 27 coming off of a torn quad. He broke his knee cap in 2009. Age is catching up to him fast. No “sane” team other than Cle, GS or SA thinks they’ll win it all in the next couple of years. Trading for now is insanity. That’s why I would make the trade in a heartbeat today for a top 5 pick in this upcoming draft. Even though I love Melo, that’s a win.

    64. The answer is…. with all those picks you listed, they’ve only had ONE in the top 5 in the last decade (Jaylen Brown) and he is a 20 yr old one and done college player where the jury is definitely still out.

      Let’s look at these drafts then.

      First five picks of the 2016 draft have yielded Ben Simmons, Brandon Ingram, Dragen Bender, Jaylen Brown, Kris Dunn,

      First five picks of the 2015 draft have yielded KAT, D’Angelo Russell, Jhalil Okafor, KP, and Mario Hezonja

      First five picks of the 2014 draft have yielded Andrew Wiggins, Jabari Parker, Joel Embiid, Aaron Gordon, Dante Exum.

      Of this list how many would you take over Blake Griffin? KAT is a no brainer. KP, Ben Simmons, and Embiid are maybe types. That’s it. You’re looking 5 out 15 at best.

    65. With the Bulls and Hawks falling below .500, the Knicks record against .500+ teams is now 2-10.

      Only 12 out of 30 teams have winning records. One of those 12 is the Knicks.

    66. luc mbah a moute is 30. Blake is 27 coming off of a torn quad. He broke his knee cap in 2009. Age is catching up to him fast.

      If a 22-ish PER is age catching up to Griffin I feel bad for the expectations people here have towards other Knicks players. Meanwhile, the Celtics 2 best players are in the 28-30 range. The rest of their team is comprised of a group of supporting castmates who aren’t going to be a core worth contending in the three years after you expect the league to open up.

    67. Out of that list I feel like we should have beaten Utah and Boston.

      No, they’re both better teams. Unless by the end of the season we’ll have figured out how to play better together as a team.

      The only team we should have beaten that we didn’t this year is Phoenix. And even that was on the road. We have played almost exactly to my expectations – bearing in mind that those expectations were about Noah contributing more and KOQ contributing less.

    68. #85

      Utah had made a difficult cross country trip to play at 12:00 game. They were flat as fuck in the first half. We gave that game away.

    69. @84 – My point is that they stockpiled draft picks for a reason and they’re not going to throw that away for players who might be in their prime now but will be on the downslope when the team is really ready to contend. We’ll let Danny Ainge make the call on that. Come tell me “I told you so” when they trade one of their firsts away for an established stud.

    70. #89

      Let me ask you a simple question: do you think Ainge signed 30 year old Al Horford to a four year/113 million dollar deal because he’s waiting three years to capitalize on a player he hasn’t even drafted yet? I would wager the answer to that question is a big resounding “NO.” Ainge signed Horford for the same reason his name was linked to Blake Griffin and Demarcus Cousins all last year – he wants to trade his picks to contend with the team he’s already built. Mind you, this is the same Al Horford whose stats have taken a major dip since his injury plagued 2013-14 saw him play just 29 games. Are you really going to tell me Ainge thinks Griffin is too old and washed up with this established?

    71. @90 -Signing a player is different than trading what will be a top pick. Take the pick off the table and there’s a trade.

    72. #91

      Right, but there’s a reason Al Horford can be had in FA whereas a team will have to give up something for a Blake Griffin. You have to give quality to get quality.

    73. I dunno, I think if Blake was in Horford’s position in Atlanta he could be had as a free agent too… it’s just that he’s on a wannabe contender with no cap space that absolutely cannot afford to let him go without receiving compensation, and he seemingly wants to stay in LA.
      he could even be available next year if Paul decides to leave for whatever reason and he decides to not pick up his option

      that’s another knock on his trade value, he has a player option for next year and whoever gets him will have to convince him to stay and then re sign him for a truckload of money

    74. Nothing. Its what people have against posters who claimed that he was an asset and better than Derrick Rose

      I was one of the most anti Rose posters on the forum and I don’t recall a single person saying that Grant was better than Rose. I recall a lot of people thinking Grant was an asset with some upside and Lopez was a solid player on an attractive contract. The conclusion being that moving them for a one year rental on an injury prone player well past his prime was a bad trade.

      So far Rose has been better than almost everyone expected and Grant hasn’t improved much if at all and I STILL think that was a bad deal.

      Rose isn’t going to make it past this year (assuming he stays healthy) . If he does, that might be even worse. So I still don’t see the point. Would be so worse off with Lopez at C, Jennings as the starting PG, Grant still somewhere on the bench, and using the Noah’s cap space for someone else. Almost everything that could possibly go wrong for that plan has gone wrong and I STILL think we’d be better off long term.

    75. I was one of the most anti Rose posters on the forum and I don’t recall a single person saying that Grant was better than Rose.

      Please look up the archives.

    76. Shit, i saw a post today trying to massage some numbers to make it look like Grant was just as good as Rose in 7 games he started last year. Just scroll up. Post #42

    77. The Rose trade doesn’t look better in hindsight. It just doesn’t look much worse. He’s still a bad point guard, just not nearly as bad as the previous two seasons. The optimists were right that he could improve. They were wrong when they alleged that he would be “good,” because he is not good. He is a volume shooting point guard who does not pass and does not score efficiently. In a league where point guards are now cracking the leaderboards in PPG and RPG, Derrick Rose is sorely underwhelming. Better than playing 4-on-5, though, so… you got me there.

      If it ends in a megamax contract for Rose this offseason, it will rival the Curry trade in its terribleness. I have a feeling this is a probable outcome.

    78. how did Zanzibar massaged the numbers?

      Rose has played 8 games in december, Grant has started those 7 games he talked about, how is that not a fair comparison in small sample sizes?

      you can disagree with him, it’s fine, but he explained what he was doing and he has his opinion.

    79. Why didn’t he pick the numbers when grant started this year?

      According to bball ref he started 6 games last year and 4 this year. He mentions games from last year then proceeds to mention the ws/48 from this year.

    80. And last but not least he picked the last 6 games of the year where no one cared. People are making summer plans and or getting ready for the playoffs. No opposing team gave a fuck what Jerian Grant was doing on the court.

      Highs of 19 points and 6 assists in that stretch ain’t exactly special

    81. I’m just saying he didn’t massage the numbers, he used the exact same stats for both players and in a similar time frame, 7 games x 8 games.

      the stats are what you are, you interpret them whichever way you want… the stats don’t care if no one cared about the games or whatever.

      you can just disagree with him without trying so hard to discredit what he brought to the discussion.

    82. You keep harping on the word massage. Maybe that’s the wrong wording but you get my point. It’s bs. Junk science.

      Comparing December games when everyone is still alive to the running out of the clock of the season is stupid. Why not compare the pre season stats

    83. Grant was almost certainly better than Rose last year

      This year probably Rose but it’s closer than most people think (but grant is still better with regard to productivity per dollar.)

    84. And also Rose was injured in the Phx and Miami games. So take those two out and do the 6 games started for Grant vs 6 healthy December Rose games comparison.

    85. yes, I kept harping on that word because it is indicative of a dismissal of the argument made in the referenced post.

      that’s why I said it’s just stats, they can be interpreted and discussed… but they are very valuable tools of analysis and discussion and to dismiss them outright is silly.

    86. yes, I kept harping on that word because it is indicative of a dismissal of the argument made in the referenced post.

      That’s fair and i apologize. I do still contend that without context the last 6 games of a season of a non playoff team are true to form stats. He did a poor job in comparing the players. He did it in a way to make it seem like Rose and Grant are equals.

      1) Including the PHX and Mia games for Rose
      2) Comparing this year to last year and then back to this year
      3) Using stats from the last 6 games of the season (all meaningless games)

    87. Rose in Miami (Back Spasms)

      25 mins 4-12 10 pts

      Rose in PHX (Back Spasms)

      10 mins 0-6 2 points

      Including these two injury games are disingenuous.

      The other 6 games:

      9-15 24 points
      9-14 20 points
      12-16 25 points
      9-18 24 points
      7-16 19 points
      10-19 25 points

    88. Rose in December
      ROSE….. MP(198)…TS(55.9)…eFG(52.1)…PPP(1.1)…USG(26.9)…TOV%(8.1)…..Dime%(20.7)…TRB%(6.5)…STLR(.7)

      Grant as Knick starter in last 7 games
      GRANT..MP(208)…TS(57.4)…eFG(52.7)…PPP(1.1)…USG(20.8)…TOV%(10.9)…Dime%(21.2)…TRB%(5.9)…STLR(2.7)

      ADDED Grant after the All-Star break
      GRANT..MP(463)…TS(55.3)…eFG(51.0)…PPP(1.0)…USG(20.2)…TOV%(13.3)…Dime%(19.9)…TRB%(6.3)…STLR(2.5)

      Grant and Rose are very similar players. They both are ball-dominant slashers who fare best in a heavy PnR/PnPop offense. It’s best to judge their performance on a team in which they play that role. If Grant had remained a Knick, he would have had the same role as Rose in Hornacek’s offense. Rose’s December stats were used because that’s the period over which people are gushing – plus he had sufficient time to become adjusted to the team. If anything, they are cherry-picked in his favor. The Chicago offense is one where Wade and Butler often handle the ball and Grant often plays off the ball. Rose would have struggled in that type of offense; indeed that was a source of problems between him and Butler, let alone throwing Wade into the mix. And then there are 5 PGs on that team which complicate matters further.

      The irony here is if Phil had scrapped the Triangle earlier and started Grant/Galloway after the break, all this would have been very clear. I actually argued for this early on in the season. Grant’s a better defender, he’s got a higher career FTr than Rose, he finishes at the rim better, he’s got better vision as a passer, he’s a better defender. His turnover rate was decreasing. Yes, I am saying that the data suggests he would have been comparable to Rose in Hornacek’s offense and better than Rose on defense.

    89. that’s fine by me.

      I agree with Zanzibar that those numbers are an indication that Grant has at the very least potential to be as good as Rose in the right situation, but yeah, it’s not a big sample size.

      I actually agree with stratomatic pretty much 100%

    90. @er Check the box scores, Toronto and Pacers played their starters for significant minutes in those 3 games as playoff seeding was at stake. And how should I adjust for the fact that Rose had an improved KP in December and complete roster while Grant had no KP, Melo played limited minutes, and the starters were often Vujacic/DWill/Lopez/Early/Lopez?

    91. Your numbers are full of sheet. If this is what stats do then they are useless. Jerian Grant goes and stands in a corner on offense and never even plays. He watches. On defense he is just meh. Stats lie bigtime!

    92. Jerian Grant goes and stands in a corner on offense and never even plays. He watches. On defense he is just meh. Stats lie bigtime!

      Yes, that’s what he did a lot of the time in the Triangle last season. And didn’t Rose struggle and complain about the Triangle early on saying he’s a PnR guard? I’ve already explained the Chicago situation. Grant would have thrived in Hornacek’s offense; his and Rose’s games are like identical twins. Rose has always been a lousy defender. Rose/Jennings/Melo are terrible on defense. Replace Rose and the team defense improves.

    93. That’s what Grant does in Chicago too. He stands in the corner and watches. That’s it.

    94. Lonzo Ball has a younger brother named, believe it or not, LaMelo Ball. He called and made a halfcourt shot the other day that was just hilarious.

      http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2016/12/27/14088934/lamelo-ball-chino-hills-high-school-halfcourt-shot-calls-it?utm_campaign=sbnation.social&utm_medium=social&utm_content=sbnation&utm_source=twitter

      There’s a third Ball brother too who scored 56 and 72 points in back to back games this year in high school. LiAngelo Ball.

    95. That’s what Grant does in Chicago too. He stands in the corner and watches. That’s it.

      I explained the Chicago situation. Go back and re-read my post. He’s playing more off the ball which is not his game. That’s not Rose”s game either which is part of the reason Rose and Butler were at loggerheads.

    96. Saying Rose and Grant are similar players is one thing. Using sample sizes of 200 minutes is another. That is simply not enough to derive meaningful conclusions.

      Saying the trade is bad is one thing – lots of factors are involved, including salary, length of contact, effect on cap, other players involved in the trade, etc. Cherrypicking a few good games from Grant and comparing them to Rose’s worst seasons when coming back from injury and then dealing with a freak non-recurring accident/injury is another. There is no jusification for the argument that Grant can provide the value Rose can. Not saying he can’t – just that there’s no justification for it. Rose did perform at a high level; he may never do so again, but he did. Grant never has, not in meaningful minutes.

    97. Phil announced he and J Buss are no longer engaged in tremendously PJ fashion on twitter a few minutes ago

      which I guess suggests he’s not opting out of his contract

    98. @115 Jeanie is too old for me but Phil would be perfect for you. You could meet him in Montana.

    99. Cherrypicking a few good games from Grant

      I just gave the stats after the All Star break and they’re also similar to Rose’s stats in December. The major difference is Grant’s TO decreased which is to be expected for a rook. That’s a fairly large sample for a rookie who could improve.

      and comparing them to Rose’s worst seasons when coming back from injury is another

      I compared them to Rose’s stats in December. Rose’s TS% in Dec is higher than his TS% in any year. If anything, I am being too generous to Rose. Grant’s 55 TS% after the break in his rookie season was higher than Rose’s TS% in 7 seasons and tied in one season!

      Look Grant and Rose play a similar type of game. Plug them both into a Hornacek offense which maximizes their skills and you probably get comparable offense. That’s what the data suggests.

    100. Yes they play similar types of games. Only Rose finishes his drives while scoring points and getting fouled while Grant doesn’t. But otherwise exactly similar.

    101. Yes they play similar types of games. Only Rose finishes his drives while scoring points and getting fouled while Grant doesn’t. But otherwise exactly similar.

      Grant’s FTr in his rookie season=.315, Rose’s FTr=.253 this season. And Grant is shooting a higher% at-the-rim this season than Rose.

    102. I’m certain that the Jeanie scandal will be fully examined and analyzed in the morning using full analytics so stay tuned.

    103. Oops, sorry, rama, you made a mistake with the quote function, but in fixing it, I accidentally deleted most of the comment. So I just got rid of it entirely so you didn’t think we were oddly censoring half your comment. Sorry about that! To recap it based on what I recall of what it said, rama took issue with comparing Grant and Rose based on a very small sample size.

    104. No worries, Brian. Sometimes commenting functions work in mobile, but not usually.

      Basically I just answered Zanzibar by reiterating,

      SMALL SAMPLE SIZE MEANS NOTHING.

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