2019-20 Game Thread: Knicks @ The Fox-less Kings

The Knicks head into Sacramento to take on the mediocre Kings, who are playing without Fox, who destroys the Knicks.

Let’s go? Knicks!

255 replies on “2019-20 Game Thread: Knicks @ The Fox-less Kings”

we should try making 3 point shots

Bold, provocative. You should send your resume to Dolan.

It’s like, do they think that they’ll somehow, what, lose games if they play Trier and Iggy? What are they doing without playing them?!

Iggy gets minutes in Westchester, and appears to suck.

I agree that he almost certainly sucks, but why have him on the roster if they’re not going to let him get minutes? The team is terrible and most of the guys who get minutes are on one year deals! Just play the shitty young players to see if they’re ever going to be good.

I missed the Trier news, though. That’s fair enough.

this is a pretty good game from randle….

I was just thinking, “Wow, they might be able to get something for Randle if they traded him now!”

While we’re getting murdered our only good player is 6th in minutes played if you want to know how good the new coach is

While we’re getting murdered our only good player is 6th in minutes played if you want to know how good the new coach is

Clown team’s gonna clown.

Remember like a month ago when a bunch of people were pretending that Frank Ntilikina is good at basketball

Man that was a crazy couple a weeks

Buddy Hield also excited about the Knicks being in town. He has a quick release. Would not want to guard him.

What’s up with the crab style screens from Mitch? They tell him to bend his knees more?

Feels so good to see our point guard blow past someone and convert the layup.

Wow look, a real PG. The team is still bad but 3x more watchable with Elfrid in.

i think we’re seeing the same thing with knox….

What’s worse for Knox is that they have other guys for his position, so it’s easy for them to bury him when he sucks.

has the msg broadcast said anything about dsj? just curious bc he was probable and berman weirdly dedicated an entire article just to say he was still in the rotation.

breen mentioned him and trier knocked heads or something…. trier has a concussion… dsj not but maybe being held up another game…

You know, up until a few weeks ago I was gonna take a contrarian stance (and annoy some of our regulars) by stanning the Hawks for doing ok by trading Luka for Trey Young and a 1, because I do like Trey Young quite a bit. But once Luka starting pulling all those triple doubles out of his ass, I was like “nah I ain’t really bout that life”.

Miller playing Taj over Mitch in crunch time is just…lol

Maybe since Payton has been out for awhile, the Kings haven’t been able watch game tape on him…

It is hard to imagine a worse announcer than Wally. Breen is so good that he sort of makes up for it, at least.

Luke Walton reminds me of Fizdale a bit. They really should have fouled Barrett with 17 seconds left. They had two timeouts left. They could have easily extended this game.

Wally: “Malone with the authoritative timeout call.” What the fuck does that mean?

I really thought that they’d have a chance against the Kings without Fox, but then they were down by so much that I figured that it wasn’t realistic. Luckily, they played strong defense and the Kings also just bricked almost literally every shot they took for the last five minutes of the game.

Mike miller is at .500

Extend Mills!

Fizdale must be so pissed at the fact that Miller is 2-2 with these guys.

Breen: just don’t let hield get free for a 3
. . .
Breen: Hield wide open for a 3

And then he bricked it, which was really the story of the night. Hield got ice cold at an inopportune time.

pretty good win! payton and mitch play more.. we play better… it’s really that simple….

crunch time offense was just not good but i’ll forgive it with our first win streak of the year.. it’s a recurring theme tho so far and that’s why there’s a cap on this excitement….

randle with another strong game… he’s been playing better lately and hopefully it’s a sign he’s putting it together…

Quite a revelation watching Payton. I never realized that a point guard could actually:

– Break down a defense and score
– Break down a defense and find an open shooter
– Take his man off the dribble and make a mid range shot

I mean, who knew?

I can hear fiz right now ‘we’ll I didn’t have Payton and that’s why we couldn’t win!’

Meanwhile you started trier at pg over Payton opening game

Fiz to FO: “Guys, this team sucks, the best thing to do is lose on purpose and tank!”
FO: “Sorry, idiot, you’re fired…we need a win-now coach.”
Enter Mike Miller…

Quite a revelation watching Payton. I never realized that a point guard could actually:

– Break down a defense and score
– Break down a defense and find an open shooter
– Take his man off the dribble and make a mid range shot

I was informed we already had a great floor general who “makes the right pass” and that playing Elfrid Payton was a great affront to this Lafayette of point guards

Meanwhile you started trier at pg over Payton opening game

Out of nowhere, too! Remember? It was just this, “Eh, I don’t think anyone should be the point guard.” Remember how it was also even defended by some folks as Fizdale doing a good job motivating people before it was clear that, nope, he really is just that dumb.

We overcame RJ this game. He’s been quite terrible lately.

Dotson quietly got us back into this game, deserves lots of credit.

Miller > Fizdale

So far, I see no reason he shouldn’t be given the rest of the year to earn the job full time. The players are still a mediocre mismatched lot, but the spacing and movement is a little better, I haven’t seen data but they seem more organized out of timeouts, and I like the lineups and effort better.

Payton should be fit enough to start, finish and play a full game by now.

@67

I like RJ long term because he does multiple things well, his defense is better than feared, and he’s mentally very advanced for a kid, but we knew coming in scoring efficiency was going to be an issue. It may take a couple of years before he’s a legitimate NBA starting player or better.

Knox on the other hand is looking more and more like a guy that’s not going to be good enough to contribute meaningfully on a good team because he’s bad on both sides and doesn’t add much else in non box score ways.

We finally have evidence for why Knox looked so good against Miles Bridges when they played head to head. It appears Miles is the lowest rated player in the league on the NBA plus minus rating…just behind Knox who is next to last. (Before tonight’s game)

Knox, Frank and DSjr all belong in the G-League. Probably RJ too, but I get his case for the rotation a bit more than those three.

There’s a long way to go, but I’ve been saying from the start of the season that Payton had some stretches of excellent PG play over the last 2 years but injuries kept slowing him down and impacted his overall results. His development over the last 2 years may have been more significant than it looks. I’d say it’s at least even money he’s a legitimate starting PG when he stays healthy. Worst case is he’s a damn good backup. IMO we should keep him.

@72

If it was up to me, I’d trade Knox and DSJr ASAP while they still have any value left at all. These miscellaneous bad Frank games don’t bother me because I already know what his role can be on a very good team and that it’s going take a few years to get there. RJ should probably be playing off the bench, but given our team I have no issue playing him a lot of minutes.

I like Mitch a lot long term, but he’s way overrated here because of bad box score models. He’s was good tonight though.

Payton is by far the best point guard on the team. I get that’s not saying much, but clearly he should be getting the majority of the minutes if healthy.

So far Miller looks like a reasonably competent coach which is light years ahead of his recent predecessors. Small sample size, but from what I’ve seen so far I’d rather roll with him for a couple of years over the re-tread names being bandied about ( Thibs, Mark Jackson, Van Gundy, etc..)

Isn’t it just so Knicksy that right when they get the tanking thing down and end up with what looks like it could be the worst record in the league two years in a row, the draft odds are flattened out thus assuring them of the third or fourth pick instead of the first pick in the draft? We were born to suffer with this miserable franchise.

I think I saw a picture of Zo Trier on a milk carton today – have you seen me?

As noted earlier, Trier was hurt after colliding with Smith Jr. during practice, so that shouldn’t be read into much.

As for Payton, yeah, as soon as he’s healthy enough, I imagine he’ll be playing, like, 36 minutes a game and starting.

Also, I mean, I knew it was a big enough deal that I put it into the title, but I was still surprised by just how poorly the Kings operate without Fox to run things. It’s like, “When Hield is making every three, we look great, and when he starts missing, we have no idea what to do.”

frank’s really stunk it up since payton got back. It might be as simple as when he’s not assured of his place, he has no confidence and is awful. And when he is assured, he’s better but not nearly good enough.

Somehow the Knicks held Sacramento to 101 points. Was that something they did by defense, was it just slow pace or were the teams just shooting horribly? I didn’t see the game and am curious.

A mixture of #1 and #3. As DRed noted, they were up five with, like, 9 seconds left and still somehow left Hield wide open for a three-pointer. He just bricked it. However, they did play some strong defense along with the Kings bricking open looks. Taj had a really nice block on a Hield three attempt.

Forgetting the final three pointer at the buzzer down five (which was obviously meaningless), the Kings scored three points in the last 3:36 and five points in the last 6:52. Not counting the blocked three, Hield took and missed four open threes and Cory Joseph missed two open threes. Hield hit one jumper with 3:37 left and then his only other score was when he got the offensive rebound off of his missed three and put it in for two fairly meaningless points with 1.8 seconds left to cut the Knick lead to three.

Didn’t they also come close to shutting down Golden State in the last few minutes of the game? If so that is a good sign they can do that.

I’m not going to get fooled into thinking two close wins against terrible teams (and SACTO is that without Fox) mean anything, and honestly, a two point win on the road against a terrible team when Frank, Rowan, and Knox play like merde is by far the worst of all possible outcomes.

Elfrid Payton is ultimately pointless. Not good enough to be starter, one year deal, crowding out the development of an ultimately potentially far more useful piece. The argument about whether he or Frank is better as we sit here today is essentially irrelevant. His presence on the roster on a one-year deal is a textbook example of why that stupid roster-building strategy this summer was so stupid.

What’s the gameplan for Payton? To resign him for starter’s money? I think not.

Frank is not a lead guard it’s that simple. Please don’t start him at point mike Miller.i think the issue is that he may not be a off guard either. Things look more fluid with Dotson at the two being above to create his own shot in space. Idk

Hield was unstoppable till Payton guarded him.

I gave up on the game after Knox gave up a blow by layup and the Knicks were down 16. Their play to that point was so piss poor. Randle had bricked a couple shots and they simply couldn’t put a ball int eh ocean.
I’m glad they came back and won, but Sac really wasn’t good either.
They beat so bad teams in a row.
Just hard to get interested.

#8 here we come because mills /perry can’t afford to trade Morris, not that he is otherworldly but that he will lose his job by trading him. Like him or hate him he keeps the defense honest.
Of course we should make him a available and move him for a pick But it might not work out that way and that ain’t good

@84 I totally disagree about Payton. He’s right at the age where point guards often turn the corner, and he has the physical tools to do it. He’s a great passer and if he can fix his jumper (always a big if) and just find a little more consistency, he could be a decent starter.

Barrett is really struggling, but since he was a starter from day 1, you don’t want to crush his spirits by sending him to the bench where he belongs. Fiz really was a shit coach with no plan at all. Obviously, the roster is flawed, but he had no idea how to do the few things that a head coach actually needs to do. Good riddance.

elf Is a triple double threat. He’s poised and has a good iq. Frank could learn a few things from him if he wants to become a lead guard

Payton becoming a decent starter isn’t enough. I want a star or near star as my starting point guard. Then I want Frank, one of the handful of best defensive guards in the association with better shooting form than Elfrid Payton, as my 8th man-ish combo guard.

“If he can fix his jumper” is a big old matzoh ball hanging out there. I vote that he can’t. If he could, he would have by now. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter, because you aren’t going to win anything with Elfrid Payton as your starting point guard. This year should be about finally getting Mills the fuck out, and developing Frank, Mitch, Rowan, and Knox. The rest is completely irrelevant noise. I literally don’t WANT them winning close games against shitty teams on the back of people like Randle and Payton, lest Mills somehow be able to con the idiot owner into not shitcanning him. Winning against a depleted SACTO with the young guys playing like crap is precisely what I do not want. I’d rather they get blown out with the young guys playing well.

The theory behind Payton is that he helps the other young guys by competently running an NBA offense. Does it actually help develop them? I don’t know, but it certainly makes some sense.

Elf’s jumper does look fixable. He shoots on a line drive but he shoots within the rhythm of the offense. I’m all excited about any competent pg play.

If he actually had a wing to play along side … do we have a competent wing? Randle? Idk

Elfrid Payton is ultimately pointless. Not good enough to be starter, one year deal, crowding out the development of an ultimately potentially far more useful piece.

My point…We don’t know what Payton is yet because his last 2 seasons were interrupted by injuries and trying to get back in shape. But for stretches while healthy he was excellent. He may be better than we think. Let’s see what he can do as a starter over a long stretch of healthy ball at 24. He can still get a lot better.

Frank is not a lead guard it’s that simple.

If we are going to play a PG dominant offense like many teams in the NBA, Frank is not the guy.

Frank belongs on a team where there are multiple playmakers & the goal is to keep ball & player movement active with lots of cuts, screens etc… The team should already have their #1 and $2 scorers at other positions. Then you are not asking him to “run” the offense or force shot creation and score. You are asking him to focus on locking down defensively, disrupt possessions and force the the other team later into the clock, block passing lanes using his length, switch, cover multiple positions, move the ball, make a few plays, and hit a wide open 3. It’s just the last one that’s a project. We know he can do all the rest. He’s a ROLE player that can be very positive at the “team level” to the right team eventually. That’s just not what this team apparently wants to do and especially not now because we don’t have a #1 or $2. We barely have a legit #3. We need a PG and other players than score or create a little because all our players suck.

I’ve been opposed to trading him, but I’m coming around because he’s never going to fit into this basketball dump. I think we can get an asset for him after people got to see him in for France & for stretches here this season. Some smart team will invest 2-3 years and want to play the right way.

He doesn’t really competently run an NBA offense; he just looks like what you guys want to see more in an NBA point guard than Frank does and you guys have a jones to show that Frank is shit, so you use Frank as your reference point. Frank is not the reference point. Payton turns the ball over a lot and can’t shoot. There’s a reason this is his fourth team and he was only able to get a one-year deal for the NBA equivalent of pocket change from a desperate, terrible organization — from the political guy who drafted him and obviously wants to use the Knicks to try to salvage his reputation (see, e.g., Hezonja, Mario).

In other words, the answer to Frank’s deficiencies is *not* having another point guard do poorly the point guard things that Frank does not do. It is to leverage Frank’s other skills — which he inarguably has — and use other guys to fill in the “gaps.”

The KB majority ranking:

A point guard who can break down a defense well and effectively
A point guard who tries to break down defenses and does so inefficiently with a lot of turnovers
Frank

The KB minority ranking:

A point guard who can break down a defense well and effectively
Frank
A point guard who tries to break down defenses and does so inefficiently with a lot of turnovers

That’s the philosophical difference here.

it’s just heartbreaking to see frank’s two sons bickering over something as trivial as elfrid payton. there are more important things in the world. like frank.

Payton is on a two year deal with a non-guaranteed second year. It’s an excellent contract. He’s also the only NBA-level PG on the team. Ntilikina and DSjr both belong in the G-League on their way overseas. The stupid thing was picking up their options, essentially tying up $11 mill in cap space next year on unplayable players. We should have let some other team “fix” them and turned the reins over to Kadeem Allen at the vet’s minimum.

If we are going to play a PG dominant offense like many teams in the NBA, Frank is not the guy.

There is no offense ever played in the NBA that Frank wouldn’t be a detriment to. Unless there’s something called the “our point guard fucking sucks at basketball” offense.

Check that, he’s excellent at the “get a high draft pick next year” offense.

It’s a terrible contract, because it’s pointless and detrimental to have him on the roster. He serves no purpose. Whatever marginal advantage he provides — and it’s still entirely unclear that that advantage isn’t zero — hurts the team’s draft position and the development of more important assets. There is no reason to have him on the team, and it’s beyond silly to use the afterglow of two counterproductive victories to start singing the guy’s praises. He will never be a useful starter on a good Knicks team (or any good team), and they already have a guy with a way better skill set to be an 8th or 9th man backup PG on a good Knicks team.

Check that, he’s excellent at the “get a high draft pick next year” offense.

Perfect then. They need another high draft pick next year.

Here’s a hint: When people talk about the patience needed for a rebuild this is what they’re talking about. Young players are going to struggle from time to time. You don’t bring in and champion a mediocre or sub-mediocre veteran to save yourself the psychic difficulty with that struggle.

I’m talking about the obvious fact that the front office and the coaches do not want Frank to play, which is why they lose their shit at things like the San Antonio turnovers and the Golden State turnovers, and bring in and champion useless (and far more turnover-prone) veterans like Elfrid Payton. This fact is pretty clearly readily apparent to Frank and his teammates, which hurts his development. (I mean, it has to be obvious to Frank that the FO and coaches don’t *really* support him, right? How can it not be? They’ve now trampled in Emmanuel Mudiay, Dennis Smith, Jr., and now Elfrid Payton — three utter mediocrities, if not worse. Frank is obviously smart enough to get the hint by now.)

I want him developed, for the reasons I (and strat) have explained at length. Since his treatment has greatly harmed this development, and because I’m a big Knick fan, I sometimes come on to KB and express my dissatisfaction.

Because they had to play him because of the injuries — and then because he earned the minutes and yet they still championed Elfrid Payton and pretended the absence of Elfrid Payton was why they weren’t winning. They should have built on what he was doing and they did the exact opposite (assuming here that his fade isn’t because he’s hurt, which he very well may be. His core/back very well might not be 100%)

If you think in the wake of the San Antonio clownfest that they *wanted* to play him, I’m not sure what to tell you. They started no point guard rather than play him and they pulled him after like three minutes. Then in the home opener, they didn’t play him at all and the fans were literally screaming for them to play him — because he obviously should have been playing. There arguably isn’t a more intelligent fanbase in sports about a particular position than New York Knick fans and point guards and the fanbase is right.

I wonder if anything has happened since the home opener. Probably not, I’m not going to check.

David Fizdale literally singled out Emmanuel Mudiay as the guy he was going to get “right” and that’s all you really need to know about the FO’s opinion of Frank. Our friend the NYU law student likely knows the term “res ipsa loquitur” by now and it fits this situation perfectly.

I wonder if anything has happened since the home opener. Probably not, I’m not going to check.

Yep, a lot happened. He played quite well for a pretty long stretch, making it impossible for them to do what they wanted to do and yet they still championed Elfrid Payton as the missing link to success.

And he got hurt and tried to play through it.

I agree that in the recent past Knick management, including Fizdale, were so concerned about offense they didn’t want to play Ntilikina unless there was no alternative. They gave chances to Smith before settling on Ntilikina as starter. But I am not sure Miller falls into that boat. I just finished watching last night’s game on replay. One thing I noticed was that as soon as Miller saw a defensive mistake, he called a time out. As I recall, he did that twice in the first half. Also, he has been starting Ntilikina even though he could have changed that, so I think he appreciates defense and is willing to coach for it. Payton has outplayed Ntilikina in the last couple of games and defended reasonably so it’s not surprising he is getting more minutes than before. What is most significant to me is that DSJ got no minutes last night, despite being available. That is definitely a change from the previous offense first coaching.

The only thing the Knicks have done to hurt Frank‘s development is to not put him in the G-league and have him play 36 minutes a night against his level of competition. If anything, they’ve babied his fragile ego and body.

Quick question for the bakers here, jowles in particular bc I’m sure you’ve done your homework on this topic:

Getting a Xmas gift for my GF who wants a pizza stone. You guys prefer the steel, right? Assume cost isn’t a factor and we only occasionally use it for pizza. It will more often be used on vegetables and such.

Her sister has a stone but they don’t know about the steels. Appreciate any feedback.

178 players have played 500 minutes this year. Ntilikina ranks 174th in points per possession and 171st in scoring efficiency, outscrubbed by the likes of four rookies (including our very own RJB), Tyus Jones and the gone-too-soon corpse of Cory Joseph. It’s embarrassing that this guy was a lottery pick. Even more embarrassing that we can’t seem to agree that he is a total, abject bust.

If Frank’s confidence is so shitty that he crumbles into a big heap of emo goo when another point guard gets to play then he’s a pussy ass bitch and should probably do something other than play professional sports.

Elfrid Payton isn’t a great player but he obviously blows Frank Ntilikina’s fucking doors off.

Citing offensive statistics only won’t persuade me or other people Ntilikina is a bust. He’s still only twenty one and can defend. He’s also a starter, a position he got by outplaying another lottery pick. I don’t think he’s good yet, but I think he is improving. If the Knicks dropped him, I am sure some other team would pick him up. That means he is not a bust yet. His shooting was better in the first part of the season but has regresses since his injury. For a while his three point percentage was about 36%, which is close to league average. My worry with him is that when he’s good on defense he eventually pulls a muscle or something and that sets him back. I hope he can overcome this.

E is the most unreasonable Frank stan. He’s even ahead of Ntilakilla (unless they’re the same person) and that dude named himself after Frank.

Frank sucks. I don’t understand the argument anymore. He had a few stellar games on defense where he forced turnovers, picked up steals, and blocked shots. His defense was worth it. Since then his defense has been somewhere between mediocre and forgettable. Evaluating Frank right now is not a philosophical difference, he just sucks at everything.

And its obviously not a coincidence that the team has played better and won when Payton played more. At this point in their careers Payton is simply the better player, it’s just absolutely obvious, and its not because he’s good, it’s because he can do the most basic things a Point Guard should do in an offense that has no other ball handlers or shot creators. Wanting Frank to be prioritized over him and to be treated as a major part of the rebuild because he can someday be a piece of a winning team is the same as trying to start building a championship team and getting your Mario Chalmers as the first piece.

Those of us who think Frank is not a bust (yet), are not suggesting he’s good en0ugh or that he’s better than a healthy Payton. We’re just willing to wait longer to see how he develops than the Frank haters are.

The only thing the Knicks have done to hurt Frank‘s development is to not put him in the G-league and have him play 36 minutes a night against his level of competition.

I don’t know, we saw how that went in Golden State. There seems to be no Frank level of competition to be found. Anywhere.

To be fair, by year three a guy who’s set to become a viable NBA player should have shown competency and consistency. Frank has done neither and his defense has gotten way worse. I will be a Frankophile til the day I die, but even I can’t see a real future in the NBA for him.

Quick question for the bakers here, jowles in particular bc I’m sure you’ve done your homework on this topic:

Getting a Xmas gift for my GF who wants a pizza stone. You guys prefer the steel, right? Assume cost isn’t a factor and we only occasionally use it for pizza. It will more often be used on vegetables and such.

Her sister has a stone but they don’t know about the steels. Appreciate any feedback.

Steel for sure. Ceramic stores heat well, but does not emit heat nearly as well as steel. For pizza (or, as DRed suggested, using as a conductor for your sheet pan veggies or fry pan) you want rapid heat transfer into the dough. I sometimes use it for Trader Joe’s croissants (I don’t fuck with lamination unless it’s for a big crowd). The oven spring from the steel is amazing.

Go with the 1/2″ or 3/8″ steel. I wish I had bought one as wide as a half sheet pan. Mine is something like 16″ square. I keep it in the oven all the time. Helps regulate the temperature of the oven, as well as it’s an additional heat sink.

There seems to be no Frank level of competition to be found. Anywhere.

I firmly believe that Fiba basketball is a way better environment for Frank and that he can be a difference maker there (as the 3rd-4th starter on a Euroleague team). But yes, in the USA Frank can’t make it work.

@118,

Theres 2 categories of Frank fans: (1) rational and wants to see if a young player can develop; and (2) those who think Frank getting less than 36 min is an affront to God and that even a mediocre performance by any other semi-viable pg on the roster is an existential threat to Frank, the chosen one.

E is in category (2).

But moreover, we only have Frank for another year. He’s out of development time. It’ll take him until he’s at least 25 or 26 before he’s even potentially an NBA player. There’s no justification to eat an entire 2nd contract worth of Frank in the hope he becomes a viable backup.

Frank is awful. He makes Jared Jeffries look like Kareem. He actively hurts Mitch, RJ, and Knox’s development. He makes it impossible to evaluate Randle’s value, especially playing alongside Mitch.

The reason the front office have up on Frank? Because he sucks, chicken and the egg situation except giving up on a player doesn’t actually make him worse at basketball.

Use a big cast iron pan for roasting brussel sprouts or carrots. Put it right on the baking steel at 400-425F and enter the Flavortown city limits. Make sure you flip them earlier than you would otherwise. You’ll get the conduction of a range with the convection of the oven. It’s magic.

Trier has racked up 13 DNP games (not counting last night) out of 26 games that the Knicks have played. So as noted above he’s been MIA in the dungeon for no apparent reason.

To be fair, by year three a guy who’s set to become a viable NBA player should have shown competency and consistency. Frank has done neither

Yes, but just because it’s never been done before by anybody in the history of the league doesn’t mean we should give up on him, right? Right?!?!

I don’t bake, but I find the cooking conversation much more entertaining than the Frank talk.

Theres 2 categories of Frank fans: (1) rational and wants to see if a young player can develop; and (2) those who think Frank getting less than 36 min is an affront to God and that even a mediocre performance by any other semi-viable pg on the roster is an existential threat to Frank, the chosen one.

There’s a third category — the ones who think that one of the best defensive guards in the world all of a sudden became a sucky defender and it doesn’t have anything to do with him being hurt. That’s basketball illiterate and not remotely objective.

Frank had 13 points and 4 assists and was plus-one in a six-point loss to Philly on November 29. He got hurt the next game against Boston (the “Dennis Smith game” LOLOL), sat out the next game against Milwaukee, and hasn’t been the same since.

I’m not in the category I was assigned here, either. Even when Frank was playing really well — and he was — I said his ultimate role was as an 8th-manish combo guard on a good team. I’ve never said he can be a lead, starter’s minutes PG on a good team. That’s not my vision for him and I’ve said it like 10 times now.

The drawbacks to a baking steel is they’re fucking heavy and they’re kind of expensive. I was able to find one that had cosmetic damage (it’s a big piece of steel you put in your oven, who gives a fuck what it looks like) for a lot less money if that’s an issue.

Yes, but just because it’s never been done before by anybody in the history of the league doesn’t mean we should give up on him, right? Right?!?!

At Frank’s age, Spencer Dinwiddie had a true shooting percentage of .394 and shot .302 from tripleville. The Pistons gave up on him and traded him for a bag of balls to the Bulls and the Bulls gave up on him and waived him. A really-well run organization picked him up from the scrap heap, developed him, and now he’s a stud.

The “third year” thing is rather silly. What does it matter whether Frank played at Michigan or Strasbourg instead of the Knicks at 19 and 20?

I bought mine from Amazon warehouse for way cheap because the edge had been smashed in. Hadn’t thought about it until DRed added his comments. I think I paid $60 for my 3/8″.

Also yeah, if you’re a person who moves every year, gonna be a bad time. I think mine weighs around 40 lbs.

I got a pizza stone last year for Christmas and it sux. Does the steel thingy go on top of the stone?

Frank is quickly regressing to being as shitty as he’s always been. Sorry guys, it ain’t gonna happen. This is his third year in the NBA and he’s well on his way to being in the worst player in the league discussion for the third year in a row. If y’all really want to continue this shtick, I think you’ll have to find strasbourgblogger.net.

Elfrid Payton has a much better chance of being on the next good Knicks team, because he has a chance of being in the rotation of any good team at all. It’s not a very high chance, but the guy can do some things. It makes sense to play him more than Frank because doing so at least allows Mitch and co. to play with a point guard, not a “lead guard.”

You really just have to marvel at some of the stuff on this thread.

These miscellaneous bad Frank games don’t bother me because I already know what his role can be on a very good team and that it’s going take a few years to get there.

He played quite well for a pretty long stretch

I think we can get an asset for him after people got to see him in for France & for stretches here this season. Some smart team will invest 2-3 years and want to play the right way.

I’m talking about the obvious fact that the front office and the coaches do not want Frank to play

3,200 NBA minutes (more than he’d have with literally any other team). .434 career TS%. -0.025 WS48. -4.3 BPM.

You consider frank a ‘lead guard’ ?

I do not consider Frank Ntilikina any kind of NBA guard.

I have the ceramic stone for over 10 years. Works really nicely for pizza and reheating meats and just about anything else. Flavor is excellent. Never tried steel.

Stone is just a small step down in performance. Unless you’re displeased with the outcome, no need to swap it out.

the sooner miller gets elf in the starting group the better for the team…

yeah, sad to see frank melt from a little “internal” competition…it’s wierd, hopefully he stays in the rotation and figures stuff out…

at least he has someone to watch while he sits on the bench do point guard kind of stuff…

I think it’s “safe” to stick mitch in the starting group now…really wish they’d start feeding him around the basket more…

I don’t know how you easily measure such a thing – but, it seems as though mitch has a really high “athletic”/basketball IQ…

Frank could use a hot ceramic stone under his ass these days !
He seems like a complete different player compared to his best performances this season.

He seems like a complete different player compared to his best performances this season.

It’s also possible that awful players are capable of having some decent games every now and then. We’re not talking about someone who churned out some 40 point triple doubles. We’re talking almost entirely about a single 14(5-12 FG)-6-4-4-3 game.

It was a good game! I enjoyed watching it. It’s also the kind of game a bad player can stumble into if you give him 3,200 minutes, and you shouldn’t expect him to replicate it at all that frequently if his career numbers are very, very different.

I mean if we’re just assuming every player’s best game is the most accurate reflection of them we’ve already got an all-star point guard in Dennis Smith Jr., so why are we even talking about this?

At Frank’s age, Spencer Dinwiddie had a true shooting percentage of .394 and shot .302 from tripleville. The Pistons gave up on him and traded him for a bag of balls to the Bulls and the Bulls gave up on him and waived him. A really-well run organization picked him up from the scrap heap, developed him, and now he’s a stud.

You mean the same Spencer Dinwiddie who played 600 minutes in the NBA and 600 minutes in the G-League during his first 2 seasons out of college, and earned a minimum salary until he finally started earning NBA minutes at age 23?

I never expect a rookie to be all that good at scoring. I’m sure that adjusting to the NBA’s physicality, speed and absurdly high level of talent (for at least 2/3 of the league’s teams) is very difficult. It’s the guys who fail to show improvement year over year that you need to be worried about. For that reason, I’m good with Barrett starting for now. If he plays his sophomore season and can’t crack .500 TS% while keeping the rest of his box score stats at least constant, we have a problem.

Aside from the numbers it’s visible even to Stevie Wonder that Frank’s body language/movement is much different these days.
He started the season playing pretty good D with great energy and constant effort while nowadays he’s lost somewhere between Mediocre and Shit city…

For whatever reason frank, Knox and rj to a lesser extent all seem lost. If miller can implement a system then maybe ‘the cream rises to the top’ atmosphere emerges. Meaning that players have more defined roles and fill them, starting or not doesn’t actually matter, because it’s more About growth for the youth. If miller can accomplish that then he deserves a longer look as HC.

I actually think theres a strong argument against overplaying young players. An extra 10 min won’t do much to really improve a player, rather it’s more likely to reinforce bad habits. Improvement happens with focused practice, the more minutes and exhausted a player gets, the less he’s able to focus on changing habits and will instead default to his old style of play. At best, no improvement comes from an extra 10 min, at worst you’re actively damaging growth.

Both RJ and Mitch should have their minutes limited. I’ve never understood the obsession with maxing their playing time (Mitch makes some sense since he’s our best center). The preference for us seeing them play just reflects the fact that we don’t see the improvement unless its realized on the court. A player can improve in practice, we just don’t know about it until he’s in an actual game.

I never expect a rookie to be all that good at scoring. I’m sure that adjusting to the NBA’s physicality, speed and absurdly high level of talent (for at least 2/3 of the league’s teams) is very difficult. It’s the guys who fail to show improvement year over year that you need to be worried about. For that reason, I’m good with Barrett starting for now. If he plays his sophomore season and can’t crack .500 TS% while keeping the rest of his box score stats at least constant, we have a problem.

Sure, but merit-wise it isn’t close. RJ should be coming off the bench.

RJs TS% doesn’t worry me, his ft shooting does. He’s regressed from college (thanks, Keith Smart) and it’s one skill that doesn’t reflect athleticism. Although players do get better at shooting over time, RJs baseline is so low right now that I’m not sure he can make enough improvement to ever be a good shooter. Again I think a cut in minutes may help him here.

oh yeah…

Why do the Knicks coaching staff look like nypd detectives

stranger than fiction…

Mike Miller looks like a calm goodhearted man and i feel that his demeanor and his aura will make players more peaceful and focused on their game.

I don’t know about his bball effect to the youngsters yet but i can sense his psychological effect and i like it so far.

You can also use them to make friends, welcome new neighbors, or catch adult-onset diabetes so as to shorten your time as a damned Knicks fan.

Fiz’s anxiety and smartassity looked like a distraction to me for the players so Miller’s calmness and kindness are definitely an upgrade in team’s psychic department.

Mike Miller looks like a calm goodhearted man and i feel that his demeanor and his aura will make players more peaceful and focused on their game.

while that sounds awfully touchy feely, and not so metric based – it also sounds pretty accurate…

Fiz did always have a look of mild confusion and/or stress on his face. Which made sense because he was usually confused and almost always stressed.

You mean the same Spencer Dinwiddie who played 600 minutes in the NBA and 600 minutes in the G-League during his first 2 seasons out of college, and earned a minimum salary until he finally started earning NBA minutes at age 23?

I mean the one that was awful and quite a bit worse than Frank at the same age, got traded for a bag of balls once, waived another time, and is now a stud.

I mean the one that was awful and quite a bit worse than Frank at the same age, got traded for a bag of balls once, waived another time, and is now a stud.

So why don’t we just go for Caleb Swanigan, Davon Reed, Drayne Bacon, Frank Jackson, Jawun Evans, Jaron Blossomgame, Tyler Dorsey, Alec Peters or any of the other scrubs from the 2017 Draft who could be the next Spencer Dinwiddie?

(1) Frank’s contract ends at same time Payton’s contract ends. Payton’s “mercenary” status is irrelevant.

(2) Payton is already a low-end starter/solid backup. If Frank’s ceiling is an 8th man combi guard, then Payton is already above Frank’s ceiling.

(3) If you genuinely believe Frank is ultimately an 8th man, then it legitimately does not matter what we do with him. So why invest time and resources to develop him?

E, your position is internally inconsistent.

So why don’t we just go for Caleb Swanigan, Davon Reed, Drayne Bacon, Frank Jackson, Jawun Evans, Jaron Blossomgame, Tyler Dorsey, Alec Peters or any of the other scrubs from the 2017 Draft who could be the next Spencer Dinwiddie?

Since we already have Frank Ntilikina, a way better prospect, there’s no need to.

Love the goalpost move though. No one who sucked at 21 ever becomes good. What about Spencer Dinwiddie? OK, why don’t we just pick up everyone who sucks at 21. Well played.

(2) Payton is already a low-end starter/solid backup. If Frank’s ceiling is an 8th man combi guard, then Payton is already above Frank’s ceiling.

He’s neither on a good team. He’s barely either on a not good team. You guys are completely overrating the guy because he’s not Frank and for some utterly bizarre reason basking in the afterglow of two wins over godawful teams. The reference point is not Frank.

The exact same thing was (rather comically) done on that Sunday afternoon after the home Boston game with DSJ. Frank is not the reference point. It’s flawed logic.

If Frank wasn’t a lottery pick on the Knicks he wouldn’t even be remembered as a player, he would be a Derrick Jones Jr. type of guy where die hard basketball fans kinda know he exists, but never really paid attention outside of some highlight here and there.

There’s nothing about his production, including defense, that justifies this type of insane overprotection from fans. Nothing. It really only comes down to a fan base that’s starved for actual talent and keeps clinging onto some flashes here and there as if they were proof of potential. It’s not an interesting discussion and really won’t ever be.

I’m actually boring myself at this point, so I’m going to say it one more time and then take a Frank hiatus.

It is pointless to fill in Frank’s point guard gaps with a mediocre or sub-mediocre point guard. Indeed, those gaps do not even need to be filled in with a point guard. They can be filled by literally any of the other four players on the court. The view that Frank’s point guard “gaps” need someone like Elfrid Payton to fill them is illogical, superficial, and misguided.

Carry on. /smile

If you bother looking at any actual metric, Payton has been perfectly serviceable the last few years. At worst he’s a competent backup pg, which you hope Frank becomes one day.

I do not base my position on the last 2 games at all, but the last 3 years of basketball during which Frank has objectively been one of the worst players in the NBA and Payton has been a decent to low end starter, at worst he’s a decent backup.

Go lookup some actual numbers that actual PGs produce. There’s 30 NBA teams, therefore at least 60 PGs in the NBA. Payton easily makes the cutoff under any metric.

Regardless, developing a potential 8th man is completely and utterly pointless. If your comparison is Dinwiddie, then let some other team develop him and we can sign Frank in 2-3 years after he gets cut by someone else.

We’ve tried filling Frank’s gaps with RJ, Trier, and Julius Randle. How’s that goink?

I’m actually boring myself at this point, so I’m going to say it one more time and then take a Frank hiatus.

Must be contagious, you’ve been boring the shit out of everyone else here since you started posting. Your utterly blind allegiance to this embarrassment of a lottery pick is beyond tedious.

The thing about Frank is that he:
-hasn’t gotten better at anything since his rookie year
-sucks at all PG offense skills (dribbling, facilitating, shooting from perimeter, finishing at rim)
-is getting grossly overpaid

He is a total waste of a roster spot.

it’s pretty funny how there’s an inverse relationship between the crazy from the frank zealots and how good a non-frank pg plays…..

like why do you need to put down another pg that did well in order to raise up your guy? that should tell you how bad your guy is shouldn’t it?

We need a cooking thread. I’d love to talk some advanced stats in cheffing it up. 🙂

In non Frank news:

Jarrett Culver and RJ Barrett have nearly identical seasons so far.

Brandon Clarke is crapping all over both of them on nearly 20% USG.

RJ is still a year younger than Culver and a few honest than Clarke, but I’d still take Clarke’s absurd Mitch-esque TS% over either one.

Memphis absolutely nailed this draft.

Garland struggling. I’m also still looking at Bol Bol going 44th as a complete head scratcher.

Any other decent rookies right now?

He is a total waste of a roster spot.

So you’d you’d rather have Smith as our starting point guard and who would be our third point guard? Maybe we would have kept Mudiay 🙂

@184

Or maybe he wants someone who’s actually a basketball player. Stop bringing Smith Jr. into it, he’s also terrible, but at least it’s more tolerable to discuss how bad he is without people foaming at the mouth every time.

No, we’re stuck with Ntilikina and have to deal with it. But he’s virtually unplayable and virtually untradeable. I’d giver him the G-League treatment but whatever, we suck anyway.

Does literally anyone on this board advocate for DSJr? I think the most favorable view of him is that he’s young, but generally bad. This year, I think we can all agree that he’s unplayable until we’ve fully committed to the tank.

@188

He’s honestly the type of Guard I enjoy watching the least, just an athletic guy who seems to have very poor vision on the court and is only looking to score, which he does very very poorly. His stats for the year are so unbelievably bad that I don’t think there is a single player who has been worse through 300 minutes than he has been this season… and Frank’ numbers are still just barely less terrible than him.

Frank sucks for sure, but I think he was a decent gamble at the time, as he was considered the best euro prospect that year. Any other year that would have been a good thing.

And as we now know, DSJ wouldn’t have been a better pick. Obviously, there were guys that turned out to be better choices, but Knox was just a straight-up ludicrous pick. I’d trade all three of those guys for one 1st rounder in a heartbeat if that was possible.

If you’re looking for a cheap version of a baking stone and don’t care about pizza, you can get a similar in oven effect with a two burner cast iron flat top. Plus you’ll also have a cast iron flat top for your top side activities.

I brought up DSJ because that is who our starting point guard would be if we didn’t have Frank. If Frank someone says a “total waste of a roster spot” that literally means the team is just as good with Smith as with Ntilikina, which is clearly not true.

Of course, it would be nicer to have someone better, but the best we could do was Peyton, and he’s injured a lot.

If Frank someone says a “total waste of a roster spot” that literally means the team is just as good with Smith as with Ntilikina

It really doesn’t mean that. They can both be sub-replacement level with little hope of improvement, and they both are.

cooking is an interesting combo of art and science…

crazy complicated chemistry stuff going on, particularly with the baking stuff…mmmmmmm, cookies…

DSjr and Frank are both terrible. Of the two, I like Frank better. But if I never saw either of them again in a Knicks uniform it would be fine by me.

*I mean, beyond the tragic waste of draft capital they both represent. As long as they play for us I’ll root for them to beat the insurmountable odds and improve, but that won’t happen any time soon…more likely they’ll be 2-3 teams removed if they ever are good enough to stick in the NBA.

what exactly is the opportunity cost of wishing a young kid well…

heck, not even sure if that makes sense, but, I think you get my point…

he makes it, he doesn’t make it…okay…

being a fan’s about being engaged and interested…entertained…frank’s thousand mile stare after encountering the trap the other day was if nothing else – engaging…

if you’ve been watching knick games you know exactly who and what (as a basketball player) frank is…and, what he’s going through out on the court…hell, in frank’s case – the kid’s probably got the world’s worse poker face…

is he worth his salary, that’s debatable…is he a bust for an 8th pick, yeah, sure seems like it…

do I think he’s lazy, bad for team chemistry, selfish, stupid, has questionable moral fiber – no I do not…

the team I’m insane enough to root for drafted him…there it is…

I got no problem rooting for frank or kevin…both seem like solid young men thrown in to an unbelievably challenging situation…

yeah, I know empathy, sympathy ain’t exactly measurable stuff, but, I can wish nothing but the best for frank and kevin…hope they can survive the team and city…

and no, I ain’t trying to white knight nothing…

I get shitting on stuff’s a big part of what we do…sign me up for that…but, in this case, given who these young guys are as people – they didn’t choose to come here…

wish them well in their nba journey…gets down off soapbox, picks up beer again…

We could have had Bol Bol with the “let’s salary dump Travis Outlaw so we can sign the Wear Bear without it costing James Dolan any money” pick.

I heard Dolan bought some sweet ass fedoras with that money though, so it was worth it.

I’ve been in the “just play the scrub until he hits the open market” camp for awhile, but I can’t argue that Z-man didn’t call it. It’d be moving the goalposts, E, if there were evidence that Frank had something that those players had other than his mid-lottery pedigree.

Story of the Knicks is the meaningless win. In the NBA the loss has way more value for a lot of teams. That’s because any shit show is one great player away from relevance. So the 8th pick or the 9th pick is literacy the worst outcome. You most often don’t get a needle mover in the draft and FAs don’t want to come.

Last year was a good start on our “process”. RJ seems like a good piece. Of course, even there being bad is fraught with flattened lottery odds. If we had drafted Zion I think Kyrie and KD sign here. Then both red shirt and we legit tank one more time but que sera.

So, here we go again. We’re looking at a 14 percent chance of the #1 pick and cap space. Maybe some better coaching can develop some pieces we can feel good about going forward. I’m afraid we’re finding some answers to some roster questions that aren’t what we wanted. But that gives us a better shot at our Luka or Joel Embiid.

The 2019 RPM stats were just posted.

Current Knicks (in descending order by RPM)
– Morris +2.16…trade value will be at its highest on Dec 15th but FO will not trade him
– Payton +.88…he’s still young and on a nice contract
– Dotson +.46…surprising
– Randle +.04…surprising and encouraging
– Ellington -.21…surprising
– Frank +.60 DRPM and -.67 RPM…..not all that bad
– Mitch +.05 DRPM and -1.48 RPM….bad and depressing
– RJ -1.64 OBPM and -.03 DRPM….not so bad for 19yo rook
– Taj -2.26
– Zo -2.42 DRPM and -2.64 RPM……bad DRPM in garbage time is not promising
– Portis -3.29….we spent 15m on this guy instead of taking Harkless and a pick?
– DSJ -3.83….2nd worst of all 1 guards (Garland is worst)
– Knox -4.79…depressing but hey he’s improved from last season

Former Knicks
– Porzingis +.52……Ammunition for Strat
– Melo -.37
– Mudiay +.27………..Did Fiz fix him?
– Rose +2.57………..Ammunition for Strat
– Galloway +.93………Included for DRed
– THJ +1.61………Doncic effect
– WHG -1.52
– Enes +1.58

Players Who Might Have Been Knicks
– Russell -.69 (DRPM of -2.72)
– Mikal Bridges +.07
– SGA -.54
– Clarke +.55
– Poetl +2.1 (the Bargs pick)
– Melton +2.18 (remember’s he’s the guy we could have drafted with that Mudiay 2nd round pick)
– Brogdon +2.57
– Mitchell +2.37
– Harkless -.70

Players Who Might Be Knicks
– Ingram +1.60
– VanVleet +1.40
– Harrell +3.34

Bron, thanks for the news. By those numbers, the Knick coaches actually do start the five best players. Who knew?

I don’t know if you’re being ironic or not, but Brandon Ingram is kinda becoming a guy who could be the player we pursue to be a main piece for this team. I admit I wasn’t a believer in his first couple of years in the NBA, but he’s showing real improvement across the board and is becoming a really good scorer. He improved his FT% and both 3 point volume and percentages massively, which could be signs of him figuring it out.

I don’t know if you’re being ironic or not, but Brandon Ingram is kinda becoming a guy who could be the player we pursue to be a main piece for this team.

Not being ironic. I didn’t want to pay Russell 30m AAV but I’m more open to Ingram. The main concern I have is his current 3FG% of 40%. His percentages have bounced around year to year: 29, 39, 33, 40. Not sure what to make of it.

VanVleet is another intriguing player. His PIPM is 1.31. His FTr the last 3 seasons has been sub .200 but so far this year his FTr and Dime% have taken a huge jump. Raptors are gonna try to keep him so price would be steep.

This roster is OKish if Frank/Dot/Ingram/Randle are able to hit open 3’s at a decent percentage.
1: VanVleet/Payton
2: RJ/Frank
3: Ingram/Dot
4: Randle
5: Mitch

Yeah the key to that lineup is for RJ to make the jump, which, at this point, I’m not sure he can do. He’s a smart, hardworking kid, but he has some physical limitations that might put a ceiling on his talent. Hopefully he’ll put it together in a few years like Ingram is doing now, but it will take a big boost in shooting numbers.

We’ve had a ton of bad luck combined with terrible management when it comes to the draft.

Hopefully we can get someone good in the upcoming Morris trade. Maybe Terrence Davis from the Raps? He’s a guy I liked in the draft who is killing it now. Obviously a 1st rounder makes the most sense, but I don’t trust this team to ever make a good 1st-round pick! Perry seems decent with trades, so maybe he can find an underrated young player out there.

RJ’s lack of burst and lousy shooting is worrisome but he’s a focused high BBIQ player so maybe he figures it all out. What’s most depressing is Morant’s performance. This could be a Curry type situation where we just missed. I took a conservative view of Morant’s stats so far and ran a Bref query with the following criteria:
– Rookie
– Age 19-22
– USG >=25 (it’s at 28 at the moment)
– TS >=54 (it’s at 55)
– Dime % >= 30 (it’s at 35 )
– TOV % <= 19 (it's at 16)

Just 3 players qualified: Doncic, Kyrie, and Ja. Note that CP3 had a usage of 22 but otherwise would have qualified. LINK

I honestly don’t get how so many kids coming out of the HS/AAU circuit have such ugly-looking shots. RJ, Zion., Lonzo, etc…are proper shooting mechanics so freakin’ hard to teach/learn?

Ja is sensational but those spindly legs worry me that he could have a Derrick Rose-like career.

Sometimes I think kids on the AAU circuit are playing too many competitive games and not having enough time to work on basics. I once read about how Dutch soccer clubs work with young players. There are lots of drills and practices and very few games. The Dutch are excellent at soccer, especially considering their country’s small size. Maybe they are on to something.

I agree, Morant’s only concern for me is that he might end up injured a lot before he gets stronger, but the kid is clearly a special talent. I really wish we had the Grizzlies trio of Morant, JJJ and Clarke right now, their future looks bright.

So it wasn’t hield with the putback dunk last game, it was Knox dunking in the wrong basket!

Bron, thanks for the news. By those numbers, the Knick coaches actually do start the five best players. Who knew?

Mitch’s number is higher than Taj’s and Payton’s is higher than Frank’s, so…. huh? Not to mention Dotson being in the top five on the team.

I’m not even saying you should put much stock in those numbers, just noting that those numbers don’t show the Knicks starting the best five guys according to those numbers.

You are correct. I misread. Mitch’s number was so much lower than I expected I assumed it was worse than Taj’s. And I don’t know why I missed Dotson’s. As you say, the numbers aren’t the be all and end all for sure, but your comment does make me wonder what would happen if Dotson started in place of Barrett.

dsj’s 2p% has tanked 14%… that doesn’t happen without something major happening… and it’s clear aside from some spurts that he doesn’t look the same as he did even last year… he’s either hurt or he got fultz’ed up by keith smart…

for all the talk of frank having groin or confidence issues… it’s really staggering that nobody really comes to the defense of dsj given he’s gone through so much more than what frank has this year and something obviously major happening to his game…..

he should be working with a private trainer to get his game right since it looks like something similar as fultz…. and fultz is the reason he still has value… and obviously it’s tough to be as optimistic as before given how bad he’s looked .. but he probably still has a future in this league if he fixes whatever it is that he’s going through…

but let’s make this clear…. dsj has never had the talent issues like frank has…. and that didn’t mean that frank was a better pick or was deserving of more minutes … in fact whenever dsj has had a good game there’s a group of ppl who can’t seem to wait to throw cold water on it… i find that pretty sad…. and that’s really been the most disappointing aspect of his struggles this year ….

DSJ and Frank are like the Giants and Jets. Recent history has taught me that there are occasional spurts of optimism for one team or the other, but you know that by the end of season they will both be similarly bad.

DSJr, between his stepmother passing and whatever Keith Smart did, looks like he should take a few months off from basketball.

Really good point, djphan.

Frank’s sucktitude is explained away because the weather was bad, or he’s being used correctly and needs a bigger role, but also not too big of a role, or three different head coaches have all not believed in him despite giving him boatload of minutes, or that ol’ chronic groin injury is has flared up for about 95% of the NBA games he’s played. These are all apparently valid reasons why a future stud is the same below replacement-level player in year 3 as he was in year 1.

DSJ makes fairly significant jumps from years 1 to 2, plays at a Ntilikinian level for 293 minutes in year 3 after losing his mother, and is apparently utterly hopeless.

It’s not even that I’m a big DSJ believer, it’s just very obvious that there’s a double standard here. I don’t quite know what to attribute it to other than an irrational attachment to a player we drafted? In Strat’s case it’s just one of the many ways Phil Jackson was actually a genius, so I get that, but I have no idea what brings this out in everyone else.

Frank’s most optimistic hardcore supporters think that maybe he could be a good bench player at his absolute peak. “Eighth man combo guard” is his 99 percentile outcome. That gives you a sense of his ceiling.

I’ve seen dollhouses with higher ceilings.

well if it makes you feel any better i think frank and dsj are almost equally terrible. i do think dsj’s good games have been irrelevant. even the best reasonable case for dsj leave him as a weak shooter with poor defense and below average pattern recognition on offense. this is the recipe for being useless to a good team even if you do keep your 2p pct high and generate some nominally interesting offensive numbers. and pretty soon you lose just a little burst and ups and it only gets worse. cognitive talent is a thing, too, and it’s been obvious from the get that dsj just isn’t able to see the game at a speed that, say, baron davis could almost immediately (to pick a pretty good, but definitely not elite athletic guy when it comes to seeing the game). if i had to guess which might be at least. a marginally productive part of a good team i would guess

1. neither
2. neither
3. frank
4. neither
5. dsj

this take hasn’t changed much from frank playing modestly better this year and dsj playing worse. dsj still has the better chance to put up decent but hollow numbers for a few years if he gets out of his latest rut. but i would happily trade him for a 2nd.

Ammunition for Strat

lol

I like NBA plus/minus, but I’ve never seen a detailed explanation of everything that’s in it. I suspect it uses some boxscore metrics to improve the overall accuracy compared to just adjusted plus minus.
What I think that probably does is improve the “average results” for all players, but it also introduces inaccuracies for some specific cases where the boxscore models also tend to blow up and give out bad results.

The other thing those models can’t handle is specific lineup issues related to the skillsets of the players and how they fit together (spacing, play making, diminishing returns, the system, pace, coaching etc.. )

I think that model is generally more correct about KP than boxscore metrics because it probably captures the impact of how he spaces the floor and makes other players more efficient, makes rebounding easier for others by dragging a big out, and how his presence in the middle helps protect the paint beyond just the blocks. As great as Doncic has been playing, I guarantee he’d be the first to tell you that it’s easier for him to get into the paint and either finish or draw fouls because KP is taking a big out. If KP can eventually recover his shooting form, they should help each other. KP simply can’t make a shot right now.

I think it’s more or less right on Frank doing a lot of little things on defense that add value even though his last few games sucked.

My own views tend to be way more in line adjusted plus/minus, on/off, and lineup data than the boxscore. I just like to subjectively look at multiple years of data to get rid of more noise.

Frank is like a box of ….Belgian chocolate.
You never know what you’re gonna get.

As great as Doncic has been playing, I guarantee he’d be the first to tell you that it’s easier for him to get into the paint and either finish or draw fouls because KP is taking a big out.

Ruru

Melo

Gravity

Synergy

Tilting the defense

Seen this movie before

I think the Knicks get the 2021 pick, not this year’s. Last year’s pick conveyed to Atlanta (Reddish iirc), otherwise it would have been 2022 unprotected and 2024 top-10 protected. I might be wrong about that last bit but they were never due to get the 2020.

I can’t think of a less cerebral player than Dennis Smith Jr. I could live with the shooting issues if he wasn’t so utterly clueless about the chess match aspects of basketball. Frank at least seems to have an understanding of the strategic aspects of the game. As I’ve always held, he’s a consistent 3-pt shot away from being a stand-in-the-corner defensive wing. I see absolutely no path to winning basketball for Smith. We need to find an “I can fix him” guy to take him off of our hands.

The Knicks are supposed to get the earliest first round Dallas pick. Why isn’t that the 2020 pick?

Every time i look at DSJs eyes on the bench i keep singing Christopher Cross’s “Sailing takes me away….”

that “why” sounds a bit douchey in retrospect but at the time i actually thought ‘he prob know we don’t have the pick next summer and means something else’

The Knicks are supposed to get the earliest first round Dallas pick. Why isn’t that the 2020 pick?

see post 230. it was always going to be 2022 or 21 because they had a pick committed to atlanta.

Dallas can’t give up consecutive first rounders because of the Stepien rule, so since 2019 conveyed to the Hawks, the next pick they can give up is 2021.

I’m watching the Giants game and the announcers are saying that the coach may be replaced at the end of the season. Is that correct? Would it be justified?

Here’s a quiz…no peeking!
Who has the lowest TS% on the Mavs?
Who has the lowest WS48 on the Mavs?
Who has the lowest OBPM on the Mavs?
Who has the lowest +/- on-off net per 100 poss on the Mavs?
Who is the highest paid player on the Mavs?

Well, it’s a shame for us that Doncic is a true MVP contender in his sophomore year, but nobody could have really expected that. We all knew he was crazy talented and his rookie year definitely showed he was going to be great, but this level this early was unexpected by even the biggest fans of his game.

We’re about to see what the vaunted #2 option does without his MVP leading the charge. I’m guessing 30 PPG on .500 TS%. Going to be a fun time.

I have no regrets about trading Porzingis, but I’m pretty sure we could have gotten a major haul for him from Boston a few years earlier, possibly including this year’s Memphis pick which they own.

Easy to say in hindsight, I know, but selling high and against popular opinion is what good GMs do.

took me a while to figure out why I couldn’t find the game on league pass – we got us a little national tv broadcast time on NBA tv tonight…

the nuggets can hit shots from outside…murray will probably get 40…we’ll lose by 30…mark it down…

any changes with the starting five?

mike miller appears to be coaching for his very life…I like that…I’ll be disappointed if elf isn’t in there from the start…

mitch seems ready to go in to the starting five also…

not sure if anyone’s noticed – now that randall is cutting back on his dribbling (read: stumbling and fumbling), and, instead running that crazy fullback dive up the middle a lot more – he ain’t turning the ball over every other possesion…

I may be crazy, but, I swear it “looks” like he’s swiping with his hands less and moving his feet more on defense…

haven’t seen morris get himself T’d up in while…maybe, just maybe – we bottomed out there with fiz…

mills must still go, but, maybe we stop switching every second on defense, stop with the stupid zones – and, guys just stay with their man, communicate and cover the arc…

if elf can continue to help distribute, and, make a layup…who knows, maybe we’re more like a .33% winning kind of team and less like whatever it is we are now, maybe one out of every five games…

I think after about the 7th or 8th loss in a row – I started thinking of that sports shrink who would talk with the new york knights after all their losses…sometimes the losing seems like it’ll never end…

Begley is saying it will cost at least 2 1RPs for Masai Ujiri.

Bondy is saying Sam Presti will be allowed to walk if he so desires.

With that information in mind, do you trade 2 1sts for Masai Ujiri (the Dallas picks preferably) or do you take Presti for free?

I’d trade the two Dallas 1RPs for Masai. Having a great GM/POBO/Whatever is more valuable than having a couple of 20-30 range picks a few years down the road.

If we were able to do that, it would make the KP trade a home run. Dolan’s Razor says Steve Mills stays around and gives it a go with Mark Jackson for a while though.

You’d value Masai Ujiri so much more over Sam Presti that you’d trade 2 1s for him?

I think Presti is great, but FWIW I agree. Nick Nurse, Pascal Siakim, Fred Van Vleet, OG Anunoby, and just building a franchise from top to bottom from incompetent to title contender? That guy is the best and it’s not close to me. He took Andrea Bargnani and turned him into assets that eventually helped him land Kawhi Leonard. Presti didn’t miss on a single lottery pick and that’s impressive, but I don’t know if he can pick a coach or if he can build a team around max salary slots.

Yes, if the options are Ujiri for the Dallas picks or Presti for free, I’m taking Ujiri everytime. He has not only brought Toronto up from being a mess of a franchise, but also has shown he knows how to develop talent out of nowhere.

Presti made good moves and built a contender, but he was also dealt the best hand every GM could possibly get and even still it all fell apart. He made some shrewd moves, but then failed to surround Westbrook and KD with the necessary supporting cast, which could have lead to a title even after the Harden trade. He would be an absolutely massive improvement over anyone we’ve had under Dolan, but I’d still go for Ujiri.

Giving up a lottery pick would be a heavy price. Isn’t he a free agent post 21? I wouldn’t have a problem giving up a late first and a late second. That seems pretty small beer for starting the process a year early.

Did Presti ever actually do anything other than luck into Westbrook, Harden, and KD? He also chose Ibaka over Harden for an extension, might have to check the numbers to see if that was a mistake.

He turned Ray Allen into Jeff Green (and our very own Wally)??? Sure he was a rookie then, but still underwhelming haul.

He traded for Dion Waiters.

He traded away Brandon Clarke for… someone?

He seems like he’s often been in the right place at the right time. Clippers needed Paul George to get Kawhi. Rockets inexplicably really wanted Westbrook.

Overall, Presti has failed to do anything despite having 3 of the 6 best players of the last decade fall into his lap, all hitting their primes at the same time. Yes, give me Ujiri.

2 firsts for an extra year is a lot. Especially if they’re actually offering him up for that which to me indicates Toronto knows Ujiri is leaving after next season. And what’s the chance Dolan trades the Mav’s picks and not our own? I think I’d rather have Presti than give up our own picks. Granted, we don’t if know Presti would take the Knicks job. And who would Dolan tap for a one year lame duck job?

Comments are closed.