[NYTimes] Grizzlies 105, Knicks 99: Grizzlies, Minus Gasol, Still Manage to Beat Knicks (Thursday, January 18, 2018 4:21:50 AM)
Tyreke Evans led the way for Memphis as the Grizzlies held off a late surge by the Knicks. The Grizzlies had not won consecutive games since October.
[NYTimes] Trevor Ariza and Gerald Green Suspended Over Rockets-Clippers Melee (Thursday, January 18, 2018 2:57:58 AM)
Ariza and Green were barred for two games each, but no other players were punished, as a result of a contentious game that included a locker room invasion.
[NYTimes] Jo Jo White, Deadeye Shooter for Boston Celtics, Dies at 71 (Wednesday, January 17, 2018 9:32:16 PM)
White played 10 seasons for the Celtics and helped lead the team to N.B.A. championships in 1974 and 1976.
[SNY Knicks] Knicks can’t complete rally, fall to Grizzlies 105-99 (Wednesday, January 17, 2018 11:00:15 PM)
MEMPHIS, Tenn. (AP) Tyreke Evans had 23 points, including three free throws in the closing seconds, along with 10 assists to lift the Memphis Grizzlies over the New York Knicks 105-99 on Wednesday night.
(Wednesday, January 17, 2018 6:30:09 PM)
The Memphis Grizzlies will seek consecutive victories for the first time since October when they continue a three-game homestand against the New York Knicks on Wednesday.
[SNY Knicks] Tim Hardaway Jr. back in Knicks lineup against Grizzlies (Wednesday, January 17, 2018 4:01:57 PM)
After sitting out on Monday against the Nets, Tim Hardaway Jr. is back in the Knicks’ lineup for their matchup against the Grizzlies on the road Wednesday.
(Wednesday, January 17, 2018 10:55:48 PM)
Jeff Hornacek didn’t want to hear about Courtney Lee’s late technical foul or two calls that went against Kristaps Porzingis late. The Grizzlies were without their three top starters in Marc Gasol (illness), Mike Conley (Achilles) and Chandler Parsons (knee soreness) and his team still didn’t heed his warnings. Despite Memphis’ 14-28 record coming in,…
(Wednesday, January 17, 2018 5:45:46 PM)
MEMPHIS, Tenn. — Courtney Lee shook his head in the locker room afterward, repeatedly saying it was “unbelievable.’’ Lee’s long postgame diatribe wasn’t directed at the Knicks falling behind by 18 points to these injury-wracked, rebuilding Grizzlies in the third quarter. Lee was livid and exasperated at the technical foul he received with 17.8 seconds…
(Wednesday, January 17, 2018 9:17:57 AM)
MEMPHIS, Tenn. — Though Tim Hardaway Jr. didn’t want to address the club sitting him on MLK Day in Brooklyn for precautionary reasons, the Knicks swingman still sees a playoff run on the horizon. Hardaway is back for a game Wednesday against the Grizzlies at FedExForum — his third game since returning from a stress…
(Thursday, January 18, 2018 12:03:38 AM)
MEMPHIS, Tenn. — Courtney Lee was furious and needed to be held back when the final seconds ticked off to end the game. The normally mild-mannered Lee’s ire was directed at referee Derrick Stafford.
(Wednesday, January 17, 2018 10:02:43 PM)
[NYDN] Late foul call halts Knicks’ comeback in 105-99 loss to Memphis (Wednesday, January 17, 2018 8:17:56 PM)
You needed an official program, a detailed program at that, to identify the Knicks opponent on Wednesday.
[NYDN] Courtney Lee berates ref over questionable technical foul call (Wednesday, January 17, 2018 8:16:31 PM)
Lee says the trouble started when Brooks grabbed his arm.
[NYDN] Walt Frazier recalls ‘intense’ rivalry with Jo Jo White, Celtics (Wednesday, January 17, 2018 8:15:55 PM)
Walt Frazier remembered Jo Jo White as a gentleman, a fierce rival and Boston Celtics legend who was difficult to guard.
[NYDN] Walt Frazier struck in face by ball while calling Knicks game (Wednesday, January 17, 2018 7:59:04 PM)
Frazier, the legendary Hall of Fame guard, played hurt Wednesday.
[NYDN] Hardaway Jr. feels ‘very confident’ Knicks can alter their season (Wednesday, January 17, 2018 10:35:31 AM)
Tim Hardaway Jr. sat long enough waiting for his injured leg to improve and hoping the Knicks’ record would do the same.
106 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2018.01.18)”
What an awful loss — or an excellent loss depending on whether we’re tanking or not.
Honestly you could tell from the opening tip that the starting guards especially had zero defensive energy. From that perspective it’s on the players to get up for a winnable road game, but also on Hornacek to give a quick hook, show them there is some accountability.
I thought KP was pretty great last night. Other than giving up a couple offensive rebounds, it’s hard to argue with most of the shots he took last night, 9 rebounds in 33 min, 6 blocks, 3 steals, no turnovers — not to mention how many shots around the rim he altered.
Jack and Kanter are an absolute disaster together on defense — they are really only held together by KP being there to clean up some of the messes. Jack/Kanter 2 man lineup without KP on the floor has a DRtg of 119 — by the way the Warriors have an ORtg of 115 — so Jack/Kanter turns opposing offenses into offenses BETTER than the Warriors. Lineups without Jack/Kanter = DRtg of 104.9 = an 80th percentile defense.
Kanter seems like a great guy, puts up some nice counting stats, but he is really just a disaster on defense. Lineups with Kanter on the floor and not KP = the worst defense in the league (also DRtg 119+). KP is literally single-handedly holding that starting unit together.
Going forward — we need to see way more of the young guys plus the guys we need to make decisions on this summer (Beasley and McDermott basically). We’re going to have to accept that Kanter will opt in to his player option, but that doesn’t mean that we have to start him or play him more than 15 min per game.
Knicks can go for the playoffs if they want, but Hornacek has to realize that playing the young players and playing for the playoffs are probably the same thing.. And we absolutely cannot be buyers at the deadline.
Because this draft is shaping up to be pretty good, I won’t be too upset if we stay in the 10-12 range. It’s far from ideal and we should trade the vets, play the kids, etc. The problem is the only teams I’m fairly confident we can fall below are Charlotte and Utah. Everyone else is either pretty committed to tanking or is completely devoid of talent.
If we stay at 12, we’re guaranteed one of the following players:
Doncic
Young
Ayton
Bagley
Bamba
Jackson Jr.
Porter
Miles Bridges
Carter
Williams
Sexton (don’t really like him as a prospect but doubt we wind up with him anyway)
Mikal Bridges
Again, it’s far from ideal and it’s dumb as hell that Phil and to a lesser extent Perry/Mills backed us into this corner. I’d be relatively happy with any of those players though.
Re: Frank – in a game where Tyreke Evans is literally the Grizzlies’ entire offense, how does Frank only play 19 minutes?!
0-6 from the field is obviously no good, but he took good shots – 4 lightly or uncontested 3 pointers and a layup. 6 FGA in 19 min is pretty acceptable, and 7 assists and 3 rebounds are good. I though Frank was fine.
@3
Because whenever he has a bad turnover Hornacek instantly calls up Point Guard virtuoso Jarrett Jack to the game…
I was super pessimistic and picked 32 (enough wins to not get a good draft pick but not enough to compete for the playoffs), and it turns out that I wasn’t pessimistic enough, since they’ll probably win closer to 36 games.
“The Knicks – You can never be pessimistic enough.”
Kanter makes David Lee look like Rudy Gobert on the defensive end. He’s definitely the kind of outlier who gives the idea of judging players on their box score numbers a concussion. I like him for his energy on the court and his personality off it, but he is a fundamentally flawed player.
It’s been a disappointing couple of months for KP but he continues to make a big defensive impact. I don’t think he ends up being Dirk on the offensive end, or anything close, but it is comforting how high a floor he has based on the fact he can actually play defense. Same goes to a lesser extent for Frank. As dumb as the FO has been for years, at least they lucked into a sensible strategy with these two of picking guys who can play defense and hoping they figure the offense out.
I can’t remember what my prediction was but it was definitely too optimistic. I really wish we had tanked. It stinks we will miss out on some real potential difference makers at the top of the draft. But that’s being a Knicks fan. At least we have a first rounder.
.
Did we do a poll or something? I don’t do win total predictions, but I think I said I was slightly bullish we’d go over our vegas prediction, which I think was 30 or 31.
I remember calling 25 or 27
I’m not sure if I was at 26 or 28, either one.
The thing about this “the Knicks are what we expected” argument is that it ignores two things: the most optimistic people were banking on KP and THJ turning corners and showing real promise, and while some positive things have happened, I think it’s fair to say it has been overall below expectations; the most pessimistic ones, like me, predicted around 27 to 32 wins precisely because we expected this team to make a play for the worst possible scenario, a pick around 10-13 and no playoffs.
Now, the worst possible scenario is happening before out eyes and it frankly seems inevitable at this point.
Obviously there’s stuff to be happy about, but I would call this the season of the “at least”. At least KP is healthy and playing defense, at least we have our picks, at least we didn’t make a stupid trade (yet), at least Frank is showing signs, etc. Is it better than other years? Probably yes. But still annoying.
In the Knickerblogger.net “Official Knicks 2017-18 Wins Prediction Thread”, I didn’t have a prediction of my own, so I averaged all the predictions in the 55 posts above mine.
There were a few predictions made after I posted, they were 27, 38, 25-30, 28, 33, and 32. So all told 7 out 31 predictions in the thread were for more than 30 wins.
another name to add into the top prospects… daniel gafford… this guy is actually the top big man in the draft…. he’s a traditional low post center but he has the mobility to play out on the perimeter on defense… i imagine he will eventually get some talk in the top 5 because he is playing too good to not….
Here’s a question. If the average prediction was 28 games and we’re on pace to win say 32 to 34 games, does this mean Hornaceck has squeezed more out of the team than expected and is therefore a coach worth keeping around for another year?
Cause here is what I SEE when I watch this team. I see a team that competes every night, unlike last year. Of course there are quarters that look bad and games where they are more lethargic than others (like all NBA teams). But overall, I never see this team quit in games when they get down. I mean, there’s really only been a few losses this year where they got beaten badly and were out of it the whole game. And they’ve had A LOT of close losses (how many OT losses have they had in the last month).
Everyone said this team wasn’t complete. That it was front court heavy. That it had some dead weight contracts that will hold it back. And yet, we’re on pace I think to win more games than many predicted and definitely more than the pundits predicted. And the team seems to genuinely like playing together.
So I think if this is all true, then Horns is responsible, no? I mean maybe its just the burden of Melo being lifted but I think Horns has shown something and deserves to stay. So if we have a decent coach going forward…isn’t that a piece of the puzzle?
I’m gonna get roasted for this and people are gonna nitpick about specific rotation stuff they don’t like about Horns but overall we’re competing and are better on defense than I think many of us thought we would be.
Don’t be so glum people. We got young pieces to build around and all of our draft picks plus some extra second rounders every year going forward. KP is 22. He will most likely resign with us. Noah is really the only horrible contract we have right now. Cap space will open up over the next few years too and we’ll tweak through that too.
We’re on pace to 33 wins or something but the Knicks are also 3-11 since their last legit good win (against the Celtics). This pace does not account for what seems like a team on an obvious downward trajectory, specially considering 7 out of the next 8 games are on the road, where they are 5-16 for the season.
Swiftandabundant, I agree with you. But losing seems make most posters cranky, so I dont think we will get much other agreement
My prediction, revisited:
16 wins, mas o menos.
KP washes out as the #1 option (I’m not a believer) and rookie Frank will do lots ‘n’ lots of rookie things…. at least to the extent that either of them can stay on the floor. TH2 will increasingly take it upon himself to be da man and chuck the Knicks out of many a game while inadvertently winning a scant handful. Oh, and this year’s defense will be historically awful. Not only is this a top-3 lottery team, easy, but it winds up challenging Chicago for the worst record overall.
———————-
Damn me and my sweet, silly optimism. I really, really wanted this team to wind up in the running for Doncic or one of the other studs at the top of the upcoming draft. I should’ve known better and figured upon the Knicksiest outcome possible… that accursed No Man’s Land between the very good and the very awful wherein the perennially mediocre dwell.
I was right about KP sucking as the #1 option, tho’.
Kanter is really puzzling. He’s so lost on defense, yet so at home boxing out and collecting rebounds. He’s literally “gifted” at rebounding and has a pretty soft touch around the rim. But I suppose he’s slow side-to-side and straight line because he can’t reach a penetrating offensive player, like, ever. I think zone D baffles him and puts him out of position often?
To be fair, O’Quinn has looked pretty bad as a defender too, except he can at least block shots (his man’s and weakside). It’s amazing that Willy couldn’t supplant either of those guys for minutes. A little Noah wouldn’t have hurt last night, eh?
@11, I have not seen Gafford play but I have watched a lot of DeAndre Ayton and he is the real deal. He is more athletic than Porzingus and as big and strong as Towns. He is already a solid rim protector and can guard out on the perimeter but he does have some mental lapses but heck is only 18 or 19. If the Knicks could somehow trade up to get him, that would be worth anyone on the roster including Porzingus. My prediction is that Ayton will be not only the best player in this draft class but the best big man in the NBA within 2 years (barring injury).
I’m sort of ambivalent about Hornacek. I think his rotations are straight out bad, and am not totally sure whether he truly feels free to play the guys he wants — he doesn’t play Kanter the entire 4th quarter, so why he is he playing so much? Is he doing that to save face with Mills/Perry because Kanter was the centerpiece of the Melo deal?
I dunno – it’s really hard to know how to feel about Hornacek. We all crushed him 3 games into the season for starting Jack, and I think we have to admit that at the time, that was the right call. However — Jack is clearly best off as the 2nd unit PG, and his minute share with Frank should be reversed.
In terms of his x’s and o’s — he wants to run which is good, but our shot distribution looks just like the Triangle last year. You can’t tell me that the coach doesn’t have anything to do with that — not that he’s telling them to shoot long-2’s but rather that he is not on them constantly to shoot more 3’s. I wish there was some stat out there that shows how often players pump fake out of open 3’s – we would almost certainly lead the league in that.
Reminder from yesterday — KP+Frank+THJ as a 3 man lineup is in the 99th percentile in both ORtg and DRtg, yet they barely play together.
Jack and Kanter are maybe the worst PG/C defensive combo in the league (maybe better than Isaiah Thomas and Kevin Love), yet they start every game.
Ron Baker has the highest net rating on the team, 2nd in the league in steals/36, was given a ridiculous contract by the FO, and was included in the “cornerstones of our team” by Mills in the offseason — wtf isn’t he playing more?
Michael Beasley at the 4 has been a revelation. Michael Beasley at the 3 has been awful. Why does Michael Beasley get any minutes at the 3?
I could go on and on.
That’s been the case for Beasley’s entire career and yet he continues to play the 3 a lot every where he goes. It makes no sense. I think the only thing is that he doesn’t like the 4.
They’re precisely one game behind their expected win-loss. So they have not been particularly unlucky this season.
We just need to get to that 6th spot in the lottery. A true game changer could be had if we don’t pick any lower than that.
We got young pieces to build around and all of our draft picks plus some extra second rounders every year going forward.
Actually we’ve got more 2nd rounders outgoing than incoming.
Incoming:
Chicago’s 2018 pick
The worst of our own or LAC’s 2018 pick
The worst of Orlando, Cleveland, and Houston’s 2019 pick
Outgoing:
The best of our own or LAC’s 2018 pick
Our 2019 pick
Our 2020 pick
Our 2021 pick
Shh, let him dream.
and with the 13th pick in the 2018 NBA draft the New York Knicks select…..
True, but they can never take those scintillating November victories away from us. Who can forget the Knicks’ November 7 win over Charlotte in which a temporarily awesome Kristaps Porzingis scored 28 points on 15 FGA? I’ll cherish that memory as long as I live.
That was my prediction above.
To be honest, despite the terrible losses lately and the lack of effort last night for 3 quarters, I’m getting more optimistic again and my thinking is starting to clarify.
1. We need to trade Kanter to free Willy. Kanter puts up a lot of empty and overrated stats. He’s bad on defense, does not protect the rim (which you want from your C) and is overpaid. He’s a backup.
Maybe Willy will have all the same flaws. Fit with KP is something I’ve been worried about since last year, but Willy is younger and way cheaper. Starter or backup, at least the deal is good. I’m glad Frank is posting all those defensive stats on Kanter combinations. I’ve seen some of that data also. He’s not good. The models overrate him. That’s why I’ve been turning anti-Kanter lately
2. KP made some statements to the press the other day about his shot selection and how he was beginning to understand that he doesn’t have to score 30 every night. He seemed to understand that he was forcing shots out of ISO and against double teams and making a lot of bad decisions. This is 2 games in row where I think he played more within himself. He may be turning the corner in that area. That’s good news. I was beginning to question his basketball IQ.
3. I am disappointed that Frank’s shooting hasn’t improved much. I felt confident he was going to blossom in that area as the season went on. There’s still some time, but maybe I overestimated him based on reports I read about him. I could be wrong . On the flip side, his passing skills (which I was worried about) seem to blossoming rapidly. There’s still a lot of work to do for him to be a high level PG, but that kid can see the court and deliver passes. When his shot starts dropping and his handle/fist step improves a little, look out.
I don’t like watching the knicks lose. . . even if it means drafting a little higher. I’ve seen enough garbage basketball at MSG to last a dozen lifetimes.
Been there. Done that. Watching Marbury, and Melo, play “mentally challenged” basketball, I reveled in every loss.
But watching this team is fun. Pathetic as it may be, this is the most enjoyable knicks team to watch in a very long time. They’re under-talented, but young, play hard and never give up. And they play as a team.
With more cohesion and a couple of upgrades, the knicks will be competing for the four seed and even better to watch.
Losing destroys morale, destroys chances to get FA’s, and only postpones digging out of the morass. And, I’ve come to believe the draft is fool’s gold. How many comments were made here drooling for Okafor. Or Deangelo Russell. Or Mudiay.
Suppose the knicks tank and draft a bust. Then what?
Look at the bright side, we may move from being stuck in futility to being stuck in mediocrity.
Seriously, though, over the years the Pacers have been, for the most part, “stuck in mediocrity,” i.e. missing the playoffs or getting knocked early yet never drafting higher than 10 (literally not once since 1986). But they still manage to gather great, exciting players and to make occasional deep playoff runs. Similar story for the Nuggets.
I would take those situations over the Knicks any day.
@26
Re: Frank’s shooting, for what it’s worth, Euro prospects usually take a year or two to acclimate to the NBA 3 point-line and the longer shooting distances in general. Jose Calderon and Dirk both shot like shit their first year or two in the NBA. So even if Frank doesn’t show improvement by the end of the year, it’s not a foregone conclusion that he won’t in year two or three, especially because he’s a Euro.
@27 fans like u kill me. Fuck trying hard, what the he’ll is fun about watching your team play like shut against a team lead by Tyreke Evans? You know the Knick have the second fewest road wins in the NBA with 5? For God sakes we are almost to Feb and they have 5 road wins with the last 1 being in Brooklyn.
Then you say Melo and Marbury….how? The knicks made the playoffs every year with Melo til Phil came and fucked up the place and Melo hurt his knee.
WTF is fun about watching Jarret Jack?
Fuck this dumb ass logic. The most fun years were 12-13 and the Lin season right before it.
Today I learned that the draft is fool’s gold.
Now I’m happy about the state of the Knicks and will buy a Jarrett Jack jersey to try to bring some veteran leadership to my personal life.
Of all people to write this. You defended Melo day in and day out, after every fuckin dumb, iso, hero ball, no defense, role resisting, selfish ugly loss.
Yeah er, let’s bring back the days of Melo and Marbury.
@ 28 – really good point. I mean the pacers have always been average to above average and have gotten to the finals in 2000 and to the ECF several years ago a few times. Good coaching and management will do that for you. Look at Miami right now. They are performing way over their heads.
I just want us to be a respectable franchise again. I want us to regularly win 40 plus games and regularly make the playoffs. I feel like if we can ever get back to that place where we’re pretty much a playoff team every year, we will be able to make a move that takes us to the next level because NYC in theory should be a great place for free agents. The problem is that we’ve always done that first instead of building hte foundation. But the foundation is being laid.
But please, sarcasm aside, can we please stop with the objectively wrong bullshit about this team being a young team?
The Knicks are the 10th oldest team in the league.
https://m.imgur.com/DzbkP5T
Today I learned it’s best to go 0-82.
I’m going to buy an Okafor jersey. Losing and drafting high is the only way to go.
They should just play Kanter 40 minutes a game from here on out to blow up his stats and find a trade partner, or at least trick him into not picking up his option next season.
This is false. They missed the playoffs in 2013-2014 with Melo and no Phil (unless you’re ridiculously counting him taking over towards the end of the season).
The common denominator in our playoff appearances was a healthy and productive Tyson Chandler. When that went away, so did any semblance of success.
@ 37 – well technically they made the playoffs with Melo and no Chandler the year before Chandler was signed but also half of that season was the pre Melo Amare team.
With ten games left, sure, lose every game and go for pick. But i’m sick of watching the knicks lose and hoping for “next year”. There is no “next year” . It’ s been “next year” forever.
I’m surprised you’re sick of genuine rebuilds because the Knicks have never actually done one. They accidentanked into Porzingis and then promptly spent cap space on mediocre veterans instead of future assets, and accidentanked into Ntilikina while trying to make the playoffs with Carmelo Anthony and Derrick Rose.
picking 13th isn’t going to be that bad this year…. last year the draft sort of fell off a cliff after the top 8 or so but there were still useful guys like mitchell, collins and anunoby that seem like they’ll pan out and were also rated in the b minus range… and there are probably more than a handful of guys like that projected to be available around the 13th….
brown jr… alkins… gafford… both bridges… vanderbilt… are all viable players.. the guys that are projected ahead of them are around the same level also… i mean picking 6th gives you a chance to pick jaren jackson jr or sexton or knox and these guys are probably worse options than the aforementioned players….
it’s a weird looking draft so i don’t think tanking nets you much besides some more ping pong balls for doncic….
They did! Sadly, it was in the mid-1960s. And, totally coincidentally I am sure, resulted in their only two championships.
They also did a basic rebuild in the late 1970s, as well. That worked out okay, but Bernard King’s injury changed things dramatically.
They then did a half-assed rebuild with Donnie Walsh and Mike D’Antoni. That did get the team into the playoffs for a few years in a row, at least.
NBA marshmallow test in action
We are getting closer to having a good team.
1. Frank/KP are 2 very good young pieces. They will keep improving, getting smarter, and become very good players.
2. I wouldn’t have paid as much as we did for THJ, but he’s also still young enough to get quite good and make that contract very reasonable.
3. Dotson, Burke and especially Hernagomez all have upside.
That’s between 4-6 foundation players.
4. No matter where we finish, we are going to get a decent 1st round pick this year and another wildcard out of the 2nd round.
We have decent role players like O’Quinn, Kanter, Lee, Baker, Beasley, and McDermott that could be part of trades or the bench for awhile.
Two more years after this when our young players are starting to peak, we’ll have Noah, Lee, and Thomas off the books and be able to add another star player to that young core.
It’s not hopeless.
As long as we are patient, win a trade or two with the assets we do have, don’t do anything dumb, and manage the cap well, we’ll probably make the playoffs next year. Then we can start the serious process of going to war in the playoffs and developing that young team.
NEXT YEAR !!!
I love the idea of going young and rebuilding. I love the idea of making good deals for the future. KOQ!
Maybe we want the same thing, and I’m mis-interpreting what you guys refer to as tanking. For me, tanking means losing by design. I don’t think that’s beneficial to this knicks team, this early in the season.
Yes, I love to watch Frank. And I’d like to see more Trey. Obviously – more Willy? But let’s do it while winning, and not having a conniption every time Jack sinks a big basket.
It’s not his three point shooting that concerns me- it’s the fact that he’s shooting .366 from two. And the fact that he’s only drawn 10 shooting fouls in almost 900 minutes. I don’t see his court vision as being anything other than average for a point- he’ll make a nice pass every now and then but so does just about every point guard. 9 times out of 10 he’s making the obvious read. That said, he’s far more of a point than Galloway or Baker or Toney Douglas- if he can improve his shooting (though he’ll have to improve that a ton) and leverage his size into getting into the paint he should be okay offensively. And of course he’s only 19 so a big jump on that end is still possible. I do think he should get some more minutes off of the ball (esp. now that Burke is here) to see if that might be a better fit for him.
@40
Isn’t this guy reub’s new account? I’m treating it like it is and just planning on ignoring it.
It’s the very same pattern at least minus the Phil Jackson bs which would make it too obvious.
The issue with wanting to win now is that this roster won’t win, it’s simple as that. It’s not an option between winning 45 games and getting the 4th seed to lose in the semis or tanking, it’s between not making the playoffs anyway and drafting 13th or tanking.
I genuinely cannot believe we are still having this argument, specially after losing to the g-league Grizzlies with our full roster.
One big improvement Frank recently made is that he’s pushing the ball much more.
Slowly walking up the court and dumping it to someone on top of the key does not a PG make.
I mean sure, this would be great. That would require sustained competence from the front office, and I’m not so sure that this front office as currently constituted can pull that off. It’s not quite clear who is running the show but it is very obvious that Steve Mills is a boob. Scott Perry hopefully less so but the jury is out.
In the meantime, this team seems very far away from true respectability and asset-poor, with some bad contracts on the books.
RE Kanter. I’ve said many times that he’s really a good scoring big off the bench who is exposed as a starter. He’s almost sure to opt in for next year, and he is a great guy who can score and rebound, but he is also overpaid.
If they could deal him and get something decent in return, that would be fine, esp. if they then put Willy in the regular rotation.
However, he is still young (as opposed to Jack) and plays most of his minutes with Jack’s ole defense, with opposing guards regularly running rampant in the lane. That’s gotta be tough for both KP and Kanter to have to quickly decide what to do time after time. I’d like to see Kanter get more time with Frank to see if that helps his D much. Even when Frank trails a guy coming into the lane, he still fights and sometimes switches to a big to help out. Jack seems to rarely do that.
But, running Kanter and Jack together is good for the tank, so…
As for the draft being fool’s gold, well, any hope for the future of this team right now lies in KP and Frank. You know, guys the Knicks DRAFTED in the top 8 in the last 3 years. I’d like to see the Knicks get into the top 8 (or better) this year to add to them.
I used to go to war with the fanboys that dominated this site. That beloved Melo era.
I guess the pendulum has swung.
No, hoola’s a longtime poster.
Agreed. That’s partially due to the knicks making terrible bone-headed trades. Also, they really sucked to get those picks. And suppose they drafted Justice Winslow or Deangelo Russell instead of KP?
“3. Dotson, Burke and especially Hernagomez all have upside.”
This upside stays glued to the bench for far too many minutes. We should refer to it as Stealth Upside as nobody has seen enough lately to know
@53
That’s why you want to get as many good young picks/players as possible when you suck. Some will not pan out. One of the few things Phil got right was to NOT trade any future first rounders.
Some like to keep bringing up Okafor, like he shows the flaws of “tanking” and such. To me, that shows the importance of getting as many chances high in the draft as possible b/c you are not going to hit on all your picks. The Sixers future hope lies with Embiid and Simmons. Heck, Fultz might be a bust, too.
In truth, the Knicks are probably due to draft a complete early first round bust, but let’s hope not…
🙂
I’m sorry then.
Me and many others have said this many many times: nobody is ever advocating a Philly-like process, this team does not need that. However, this team needs talent, and it has little to no assets outside of draft picks to find such talent. How can it not be simple?
Yes, the draft can yield a good player or a bad player, that’s why you maximize draft position, to have more choices. Then it’s on the front office to find the right guys.
How can you trust a front office to rebuild this team via trades or signings, which also involve talent evaluation, and yet assume they’ll draft the next Jahlil Okafor if they get a high pick to work with? One of the very few things that appear to be decent to good for the Knicks is precisely their scouting department.
If you do draft Okafor you’re in the same position as you were before, but with a bust in a reasonable contract you can cut ties with in 2 years or even trade for something. There’s no downside in focusing on the draft if you already suck.
in regards to frank… it’s still far from a sure thing that he’ll pan out… the breakaway he had yesterday is a prime example… nba guards usually convert that over 80% of the time when they have a step on a defender… he’s been 50/50 on those and while that alone isn’t cause for concern.. it signals his inability to finish….
he’s sort of like calderon…. except he’s not as good a shooter yet… he’s making the right passes but aside from some flashes he doesn’t consistently create good looks…. you have to create space in order to do that… the grand majority of his assists are him dribbling around the perimeter and the guy shooting … those shots are generally medium quality and eventually leads to stagnation which contributed to the iso plays that kp was getting… his play against the nets were high quality passes since he got into the paint but that’s not really been the norm with him….
all this can change but his stat profile is starting to look a lot like baker’s which isn’t a good sign….
I don’t trust the scouts at all, but I’d rather flip the coin on a 4-year, $8M deal than whoever they’d almost certainly overpay in free agency.
It’s too late to do the thing we’ve been asking for for years. When the best team in the league is buying up 2nd-rounders and drafting high-productivity NCAA players late in the draft because “lack of offensive skillset” or whatever bullshit the scouts peddle, you know you’re not going to be the next Moneyballers.
Team is fucked.
lmao
I don’t think you are going to have to wait much longer. Once the trade deadline comes and/or we start dropping out of contention, some players may be moved. It will also be easier to tell guys like O’Quinn (who wants a payday), Kanter (who has an option), Lee, Jack, Thomas etc.. that it’s time to start developing the young players even if they don’t deserve the minutes yet. They will mostly fall in line at that stage of the season.
@57
All true.
He’s only 19 years old. He’ll get a lot better.
Cock Jowles, You are a very thoughtful person but I have to disagree. We may be bent over and the lubrication applied, but we are not fvcked yet.
It’s not like I am overflowing with confidence in Perry/Mills, but let’s give Perry a chance at the deadline and see what he comes up with. He won the Melo deal and Beasley was was a good signing. Jack is Jack, but it certainly wasn’t an overpay.
This is what pisses me off the most. WTF? why is this man not playing the youth?
I think the Knicks will look very different after the deadline. Lee, O’Quinn, and Noah may be gone, and possibly Kanter.
Some teams will see Lee and Kanter as very desirable parts. and maybe they can be used to unload Noah.
I’m not all that thoughtful, just somehow less dumb than the majority of people employed in NBA front offices.
Well, we’ll have another data point to work with once the trade deadline passes. If some of the vets are flipped for picks or young players, then yay! If not, boo! The trade deadline coming and going should reveal a lot about the front office and what their priorities are in the long term.
@62
I certainly share your frustration, but it’s just Hornacek coaching for his job.
I don’t even care much if he’s overall good or bad as a coach, but he’s not the right guy for a presumed rebuild. The thing is we have no idea of his interactions with Mills / Perry, we don’t know what they told him basically, if they’re fine with playing so many veterans and so on. My guess is that they’re fine with whatever brings more wins now, no matter what, and I don’t like that.
too funny to think that a poster here has any influence at all in regards to the shit that happens out on the court…as a fan, you know you’re in deep when you start thinking your own wishes mean anything at all…
as shock g (who’s not aging so well from the looks of a recent mugshot) so wonderfully put it: doowutchalike…root howyalike…
wasn’t confident at all in our point guard position, jack has actually exceeded expectations (which were pretty low)…and, never counted on michael sleepy/stoned beasley winning us a few games…
not easy to root against your team to improve their chances at a lottery ticket in the draft – got, there though last year at about the same point in the season…and, it helped us get frank – who, through good and bad play, i really like to watch…
for me, it’s almost easier to not watch them play than to watch them play and hope for the worse/best…such is the life of a knick fan…i blame bernard king and ewing for getting me hooked on the knicks…
what i’m really hoping for right now – find a way to get kanter and lee off the roster, and, stick jarret jack’s ass to the bench…which only means – that ain’t happening…
friday against utah is another winnable game – and, also an opportunity to have yet another “worse” loss of the season situation…
i think the folks who want to play the young folks should just be patient…
if the plan was to see what we have while showcasing guys for a possible deal then i think that’s a fairly reasonable path with the hand that was dealt…. benching kanter and lee and koq would just undermine the strategy to actually get something of value for these guys….
if we don’t get a deal then i would start to worry a bit….
@68
I’m actually fine with this strategy in regards to Lee and O’Quinn, if they do get shopped. The ones that bother me a lot are Lance and Jack as they have zero value anyway. Now that Burke is on the roster there’s no reason not to go with Frank + Baker + Burke as the PG rotation, while finding some minutes for Dotson here and there.
Ron Baker shouldn’t be in the NBA
@ 64 “I’m not all that thoughtful, just somehow less dumb than the majority of people employed in NBA front offices”
Nice
best analysis on kp’s offense yet…
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/kristaps-porzingis-is-doing-his-best-carmelo-anthony-impression/
@72
This is very depressing. The Knicks start the 3rd (Jack) and the 4th players in worst shot quality…
@70
I disagree. Baker is a legit good defender, and is hitting 37% of his threes. On top of that 4.4 asts to 1.6 turnovers per 36 is very good for a SG. As a three and d guard off the bench I think he has a real future in the NBA.
He might be a terrible offensive player overall but his outside shot and ability to keep the ball moving keeps him from being a Thomas level liability on offense.
@67 … where it particularly hurts me… is i look forward to these games, with the hopes they win, as naive as someone may believe that to be… its with great excitement that i head home after a shitty day of work to watch the knicks play… i go home, play with the baby, put baby to bed, gather all my stuff that i gather, before setting up shop on the couch… i cant in my right mind root for a tank… it would literally take the joy out of some of my evenings, that is, before the knicks eventually do that for me 2.5 hours later… at least i had the buildup and the 2.5 hours… but i dont want to not watch either…
It may be that the Knicks have been showcasing their more veteran players in the first half leading into the trading deadline in order to improve their trade value.
That would be some three-dimensional chess right there.
But Kanter, Lee and O’Quinn have improved their value to this point…even if Kanter has been down a bit since his big night. They have value, and tying them to Noah would be good fortune.
We may get some young pieces and draft picks…
The hilarious thing about that 538 piece is that it proves the “gravity” theory.
KP went from 71st worst shot quality to 4th worst in 1 year.
The hilarious thing about this post is that you think it proves the “gravity” theory.
@74
I agree. Baker is a legit NBA player. Fine as a fourth or fifth guard on a team. He does play hard, good D, but not much O, though’s he’s shot okay this year. He’s overpaid for what he is, of course.
🙂
The thing that article proves is that Porzingis’ shot selection is ass now that he perceives himself as “the man.”
What does it show then? Notice melo isn’t in the bottom 5 this year?
I’ve never even promoted it, but the results are there. What does it sh ow you mighty one?
It noted that KP is taking much worse shots this year and that Melo is no longer in the bottom five in terms of worse shots in the NBA. Going from that to “this proves the ‘gravity’ theory” is a big leap. Correlation does not imply causation.
Baker is riding the coattails of a hot start still. Over his last 20 games he’s shooting .292 from 3PT. His TS% over that span is .481. His eFG% for the season is a weak .455, and he is shooting a horrible .346 on 2-point attempts.
He blows.
@82
Specially since from that article, all we know is Melo is not in the bottom 5, he could be 6th for all we know, and the gravity effect is supposed to help his teammates, not him (and since data for qSQ doesn’t seem to be publicly available, we have no idea how that is working out).
All we know is that George is shooting worse than last year in terms of ts%, Westbrook is considerably worse and Melo too. Not a good omen for the gravity dudes.
Ron Baker has attempted 27 3s over the last 20 games.
Rons not going anywhere so we might as well see if he can manage as a backup SG. Please trade Lee so we can play all of our young guards.
minus the baby – there it is – exactly…
it’s not like i don’t have other “entertainment” options or interests…somehow or another i’ve become hooked on the knicks, been like that for a good while…
i don’t know – maybe there’s some kind of deep down submissive bdsm thing going on in the dark recesses of my mind that i’m not really aware of, but ol’ guitar jimmy knows how to get to…
at least i don’t get too emotional like back in the 90’s when i watched…no doubt though – i got a color tv, so i can see, the knicks play basketball…
Yeah, of course im reaching. But it shows something. Probably that most players need good teammates.
Yes but this is the measurement of shot quality, not the percentage you shoot on those shots
@88
That’s why I said we have no idea how that’s working out, we don’t have the stats.
However, you gotta admit that 3 veterans all dropping in terms of efficiency compared to their last seasons probably does not mean they’re taking considerably better quality shots right? Unless it’s a massive statistical aberration and they’re all missing open shots left and right for 45 games, it’s fair to assume the effect has been far less meaningful than the rurulandian delirium of gravity.
@83
Baker actually shot 33.3% on three’s with a TS% of 52.2% over the last 20 games. But it’s pretty arbitrary to cherry pick stats. Especially when he’s only played in 23.
His “hot start” that you are referring to is 2-3 from 3 and 0 for 3 from 2 over his first three games.
More importantly Baker doesn’t shoot enough for it to even really matter. His TS% is 51.8% for the season but he averages 8.2 shots per 36 so even if it was 60% it wouldn’t actually make a ton of difference. What matters is that teams seem to respect him from 3 and he is a good passer so his presence doesn’t hurt spacing.
He’s out there for defense and so far he has been excellent at that.
@89 it works by calculatin how close defenders are to you when you shoot.
And the Thunder do miss a lot of wide open shots. Melo is old now so his decline isnt a big deal. I don’t know why the others are shooting badly
@85 and 90
Maybe we’re wrong. There might be a lot of stud 4th and 5th guards on teams that we can get for free!
🙂
Awww KP barely missed starting in the ASG. Embiid probably deserves it more.
@91
Every team misses open shots, man. The difference is that 45 games are certainly enough for statistical aberrations and super unlucky stretches to be filtered out.
They’re just not meshing well in terms of creating and making good shots, no need for major mental gymnastics.
According to nba.com, the Thunder are 21st in the league in frequency of wide open shots (shooting 44.3% on those, 7th in the league) and 3rd in open shots (making 42.2% of them, 26th in the league).
They don’t seem to miss more open shots than other teams on average, so I really don’t buy that they’re just missing wide open looks that they would make otherwise.
(By the way depressing stat moment: the Knicks are by far last in the league in frequency of wide open shots)
Interestingly, the players preferred Porzingis to Embiid, but the fans and the media preferred Embiid over KP.
Unlike many on this board, the players appreciate defense.
(Or maybe Embiid is just a jerk…)
Maybe Phil Jackson is right regarding Lauri M and Bulls got a decent return for butler. The Finnish Rookie is impressive so far
Embiid talks a lot. Sure that rubs the vets the wrong way.
Well, Embiid is 6th overall in the league in DRPM and the Sixers are like 8 points better on defensive rating when he’s on the court, so I doubt defense had anything to do with it.
My guess is that players don’t deal too well with Embiid playing limited minutes, resting on back to back and still trash talking a lot like he does.
I’m still very on board with Embiid and I think he’s very, very good. Health, turnovers and a bit of bad shot selection are pretty much the only things stopping me from calling him a superstar.
i’m pretty sure this is about as good as markkanen will get…. if you’re a 7 footer and hanging out past the 3pt line half the time you not gonna be doing much….
Andre Drummond is having a much better season than Porzingis or Embiid
@101
So is Al Horford, who would be my pick particularly, but well, that’s what the all-star game has become.
Yeah Horford should’ve gotten the start.
has always been* ; )
@102
I wouldnt put much thought to it, it is an absolute meaningless game. You can see the players with a bigger effort in the pickup games they play in the summer.
BTW, I would have loved to have Ginobili as a starter. If the All-Star is just an ego reward, Ginobili deserves a big one for all his career of flashy and efficient play, it is a joy to watch the guy play.
Went to see Nets Spurs for Manu and he didn’t play. Huge bummer.