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95 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2024.11.17)”
The funny thing is if you remember the 2008 season, Doc was their weak link. “Can this team overcome Doc Rivers” was a frequent topic of conversation on all sorts of media. Just goes to show you that it’s pretty easy for a dumb idea (i.e. Doc is a coach worth paying) to become widely accepted.
Joe Mazzulla is actually doing a great job, IMO. They had to go through some growing pains with him, and he’s more of a caretaker than a builder, but he seems to push all the right buttons and doesn’t hold them back in any way.
He’s very quotable and kind of strange which I enjoy.
Never been a believer that coaches matter but Doc really is an important counterfactual
Mazzulla reminds me of Joe Torre. Torre struggled when the team aged out and in-game decisions became harder than just calling on Jeff Nelson or Mike Stanton, but he had total command of a great team and maximized its potential.
Anyway, parity seems to be coming to the NBA, no doubt because of the aprons. And it’s not just bc expensive teams get brought back to the pack by the penalties. The aprons make it much harder for bad teams to dump their expensive guys. If a team like the Lakers can’t just be like “fuck it, we’ll take Zach Lavine and pay the tax”, Zach Lavine stays on the Bulls and they’re not a pushover.
I would have said the Raptors were maybe the easiest win in the league (and Vegas agreed with that spread), but there they were taking the friggin’ Celtics to overtime without their two best guys.
Poeltl might be the second best Raptor. He’s doing his very best iHart impersonation. Looking worth every bit of $19.5M AAV.
RJ is clearly a valuable young player. He’s a bit of a round peg in a square hole right now, and I think his role after the trade is the one he is best suited for. Grady Dick is upping his game a bit and Boucher is useful. When Barnes and IQ come back and RJ goes back to his former role, they might be a play-in-ish caliber team unless Masai orients them towards a tank job.
Ball dominant guys who can’t score efficiently and can’t defend? Not that valuable.
RJ will level out as a a 2nd division nba starter in the end. That’s always been my projection for him. It has some value but he will always be very overpaid.
de’aaron fox scored 109 in two games. the all time knick record is bernard with 103.
“RJ will level out as a a 2nd division nba starter in the end. That’s always been my projection for him. It has some value but he will always be very overpaid.”
The Harrison Barnes/Rudy Gay/Tobias Harris level player seems to be about right, although he’s a consistent 3-ball away from being a tad better. Is he overpaid? Depends on where he levels out. The guy who finished the season for TOR was well worth the money he’s getting paid right now.
“de’aaron fox scored 109 in two games. the all time knick record is bernard with 103.”
Both guys also have scoring 60 in a loss on their resume.
Doc’s maybe/probably the worst coach in the League*, but to be fair the Bucks were hosed on a phantom foul for the second game in a row (they were lucky the Pistons missed both FTs in the previous game).
The NBA has a serious refs problem right now…
* He’s the laziest by a mile
Speaking of pushovers, the Philadelphia 76ers remain one of the three teams you most want to see right now with a -7.97 SRS, ahead of only the Wizards and Jazz.
Guess who owns their first round pick this year? The Oklahoma City Thunder, of course! They got it in the Al Horford salary dump. It is top 6 protected, though.
You can talk all you want about how great this team might be when they’re all healthy but Maxey’s got a bad hamstring, George has a bad knee, and Embiid’s a bum. Those things tend to linger. This is not some sleeping giant. It’s a shitshow.
Not even close:
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?player_id2=barneha02&player_id1=barrerj01&request=1&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=barrerj01&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?player_id2=harrito02&player_id1=barrerj01&request=1&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=barrerj01&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr
Whatever the probability is that they are all healthy come playoff time is the probability I’ll be drinking too much if we have to play them.
Not good statistical analysis. You’re comparing a sample that includes the statistical primes of Player A to the isolated pre-24 years of Player B. Twice.
If you do a fair apples-to-apples comp, it’s pretty close:
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=barrerj01&p1yrfrom=2021&p1yrto=2025&player_id2=barneha02&p2yrfrom=2013&p2yrto=2017
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=barrerj01&p1yrfrom=2020&p1yrto=2025&player_id2=harrito02&p2yrfrom=2012&p2yrto=2017
RJ’s a quite skilled still young player, which is why he’s averaging a high number of assists (and rebounds) and can put up triple doubles against the best team in the association playing with dreck.
As between basketball skill and “efficiency,” always bet on skill. Raises your ceiling. The Knicks should have held on to his and IQ’s ceiling, rather than trading it in for niche short-term “efficiency.” The entire enterprise was misguided.
I love Josh Hart
https://x.com/sny_knicks/status/1857635777858945315?s=46&t=0wqff4cNt-sCGcDs-uMExw
I am very, very glad the Knicks got out of the “wait for RJ Barrett to become a good 3PT shooter” business.
I’m not saying it won’t happen, but he’s flatly not conducive to winning unless it does and he’s simply not good enough in general to justify waiting around.
We’re in year 6 and “what exactly is RJ Barrett good at” is still not the easiest question to answer.
(I should have added to the next-to-last sentence, “and then paid full luxury retail for that niche short-term efficiency.” Consider it amended.)
I just put the career stats (including the decline phases of the other 2). I assumed people could draw the pertinent comparaisons.
Anyone who thinks Barrett’s play for 11,000 (or any reasonably large sample of minutes stacks up favorably with Barnes or Harris as 2 way players doesn’t watch basketball. Pick your metric or basket of metrics. His D is abysmal. That counts as an player in the NBA. His offense is largely inefficient. Glad to be rid of his contract and his Maple Mamba Mentality.
RJ is a below average starting NBA player. I don’t get the buyer’s remorse/gnashing of teeth.
The latest from ESPN+ includes the following bit on Dyson Daniels, who must be filling the Pelicans with deep regret. That Murray trade also included Larry Nance, the Lakers pick this year, and an unprotected Bucks ’27 first that looks like gold right now. Damn, David Griffin. Update your resume.
I highlighted that bit about the screens. Must be nice.
https://global.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/42432063/doc-rivers-laments-refs-blowing-call-late-bucks-loss
Rivers might be correct about the call, but it’s his pattern to blame others when they lose, be it Ben Simmons, the refs or something else. He never says it’s his fault and he’s happy to throw someone under the bus.
Thibs never does that. He’s always saying nice things about the players in his press conferences.
This is a cartoon stat
I didn’t get the sense that anyone was expressing remorse over losing RJ. I’ve only ever heard that from E.
Indirectly, others are.
When you say this team projects to win 50 games and go out in the second round — as many have said — you’re de facto agreeing with my analysis.
Basketball has never been and will never be as easy as looking at a player’s true shooting percentage. In reality, doing that is akin to looking directly at the sun.
In terms of defense, you’d think games like Friday night’s would be educational. Even high quality defenders have a tough time shutting down quality offense. “Put OG on Cam, put OG on Cam” … ok OG’s on Cam and Cam still went off for 43. Playing with dreck.
OG is really good, but the trade wasn’t an easy call for me and the final verdict will be rendered based on how IQ’s career plays out. RJ stinks and was matching salary. Definitely beneficial to Toronto this season though, given their goals.
“KP stinks and was a salary dump.”
Kind of turfs the credibility to anyone with even a modicum of self-awareness.
And Toronto isn’t tanking the season and that isn’t their “goal.” They’ve been without Barnes and Quickley practically the entire time.
The (predictable) retreat begins.
They gave up too much for OG. Some of us said it right from the get-go. It’s now becoming clear. There was never any reason to abandon that prior if it in fact was your prior.
“RJ’s inefficient, so let’s look at BB-ref and find the most efficient available player and replace RJ with him. All will be swell!”
Doesn’t work that way. Especially doesn’t work that way when you then do the exact same thing in exchange for 5 1s, after RJ’s inefficiency is already gone.
i found rj pretty frustrating when he was here. the defense, passing and shot selection were just so underwhelming relative to what seemed like his potential and he never really improved much in those areas. but he really did seem to work pretty hard on parts of his game. his right hand made a pretty decent leap and he seemed like he inched his shot forward. he also had impressive in game resilience when things were going to shit.
it does seem like he’s made more strides in toronto along with having a better context (last year), especially passing and cutting off ball. he also has a much wider finishing repertoire than he started with. defense looks the same unfortunately. uncertain player curves is my second favorite thing about the nba and i think his is probably still wide enough to be interesting, despite all the minutes. his problem is that even the apex predator of decently efficient creation without defense or reliable 3pt shooting is still just demar derozan, and it’s really fucking hard to be demar derozan. but he’s still not drawing dead as a shooter, so there are windows. i would love to wake up one year and see rj actually figure out you can still play decent if not great defense with mediocre length and instincts. his feet and strength are solid.
raptors might have trouble really tanking if iq, barnes, rj and poeltl are all healthy given that dick, mogbo and agbaji are not the kind of depth players you want if you’re shooting for the bottom 4.
RJ’s a frustrating player because his shooting form is just short of what you’d hope for to round out the rest of his broad skillset. That’s it. That’s why he’s frustrating. It’s not really even complicated. His defense is perfectly fine and they had excellent playoff defenses playing him major wing minutes.
That may never change. He may at age 30 continue to brick threes players with better natural shooting form would make and therefore piss off fans of his team and “analysts.” OTOH, things might, when TO gets back intact and his usage can drop from 30+, get back to the sweetspot he had last spring with TO and roll that forward.
Still better to roll the dice on that than trade it out, with (kind of unbelievably) another quality young player, for lower-risk, lower reward “efficiency.”
This is a cartoon stat
daniels has been a whirling dervish on defense and he is the maybe only player i’ve seen actually do to jalen what people thought oubre did to jalen in the playoffs.
bogdan has been hurt, but young daniels johnson bogdan and capela/okongwu seems like a fairly potent lineup.
Hahahahaha, you can look at my opinions from the day of the trade!
I guess you’ve the rationalized the “dying on my original hill no matter what” shtick by pretending everyone else does it too, but the opinions here actually tend to be nuanced and people are willing to incorporate new information.
I am 99% sure I never said “KP stinks and is a salary dump,” but if I did, dig it up and I’ll do something you’ve never done–admit I was wrong about something.
RJ is 24 now and when he’s 34 you’ll still be talking about all the upside we gave away, because you have never, ever been wrong about anything. We have the 3rd best championship odds now, but we’d be #1 if we just listened to E and built around Frank Ntilikina, Cam Reddish, and RJ Barrett.
E’s example of a bad OG game is going for 25pts, 8rebs, 2stls, and 4 deflections on a 65.1 TS%. A perfect 9-9 inside the arc.
Yeah if Daniels can get his outside shooting up above league average, he’s the perfect fit next to Trae.
These jumbo wings are becoming the norm, and that’s ultimately going to be bad news for Brunson. I sure hope Mikal can become the secondary ball handler we need for times when Brunson is getting locked down… idk though, there is just so much we’re wishcasting on Bridges.
Hart is at least decent in bringing the ball up court, but I can see why Thibs has gone with the 2-pg sets with Payne at times, although that has its drawbacks, too.
That said, we’re still 8th-best in turnovers per game (probably somewhat thanks to pace), but it will be something to watch this year.
The thing about RJ is that I think he’s in the perfect place. He’s a Canadian hero in Canada, and I presume he’s well embraced by the fan base (having not read raptorblogger). That way he can incrementally work his way toward becoming decent without the (entirely appropriate) NY hate constantly washing over him.
Anyone reads raptorblogger, let me know if this take is way off base.
My critique of RJ hasn’t been the shooting, basically since his rookie year.
He just isn’t athletic enough. It’s scout talk from moneyball but I think he’s got heavy bones and probably an ugly girlfriend.
I’d strongly consider dumping Trae and running Daniels at PG.
A lens to view Leon’s big trades through that I think is enlightening is betting on context independent players instead of context dependent players.
We have enough experience with RJ, IQ, Randle, and Donte to know that their play can vary pretty significantly based on their role, teammates, etc. I mean, Randle alone had two terrible years for us and two good years for us. RJ was mostly just bad, but was at his best in an off-ball role. The Wolves are playing Donte at point guard a ton and the results are…not good. I think IQ has the best chance of anyone in this group to be a context independent player, but that’s still TBD.
KAT and OG just flat out produce. You don’t see wild variations in their stats year-to-year, or their supporters talking about how great they’d be if only the coach would recognize they’re at their best when mercury is in retrograde.
A lot of this applies to Mikal too, he has experienced volatility year-to-year because his role has changed a lot, but unlike RJ/Randle/Donte he still has a level of context independent skill such that he’s never been a liability for an extended period of time.
Of course, the elephant in the room with him is he’s just got to get it together this year, full stop. So far the KAT and OG bets are paying off, but Mikal has pretty much sucked.
I don’t think that column adds up to 100.
I have said that, and I definitely don’t have RJ seller’s remorse.
Whatever the probability is that they are all healthy come playoff time is the probability I’ll be drinking too much if we have to play them.
the depressing thing about the two and ten sixers is that if embiid can be healthy enough to play and also stop playing like mehmet okur, they may have hit gold with jared mccain. that’s kind of a big deal for such a top heavy team. i get the skepticism on a few games from a small rookie shooter but bc i already believed in him i can’t help but fully subscribe. i remember specifically hoping that neither mccain or devin carter fell to them.
If we didn’t make the OG trade, Quickley (who I love) would still be playing backup PG and both our starting offense and defense would be worse than it is now. It’s painful for me to even imagine a worse defense, but RJ instead of OG would do exactly that in a significant way. It’s comical to compare OG and RJ. RJ is still a negative on both sides that Toronto is hoping can put it all together (as we were for several years) and OG is a positive on both sides now and still inching forward . Then again, OG is not a superstar. He’s just the perfect two way plus piece for this team. So we might as well trash him. Unbelievable!
I’d argue against this team-building philosophy. You don’t need context independent players, except during a rebuild. Once you know your context, you build for your context.
I’d argue that this is what Denver did. Aaron Gordon isn’t a context independent player, but he is an ideal fit next to Jokic. Bruce Brown hasn’t been amazing anywhere but he was a swiss at knife who made their bench unit work. Even Jamal Murray probably doesn’t work as well without Jokic, and a PG who is a lesser jump shooter probably wouldn’t work quite as well next to Jokic, even if they were a better player.
Mikal is underperforming, but even if he wasn’t, I don’t know why I’m paying his price to stand in the corner. We’ll need him when other players go down, but it doesn’t strike me as a good use of money. Even if we disregard money, if Grimes is better at getting over screens at the PoA, I’d rather have him so far than Mikal’s better all-around game.
The problem is only putting context dependent players in the wrong context. If you put them in the correct context, assuming such a context exists, there’s no issue.
I’m sure the Hawks are but who wants Trae?
It’s really hard to trade guys who make north of $30M. I’ve heard people here say there’s going to be a big market for our high priced guys if Leon needs to pivot but that’s wishful thinking.
speaking of overly committing to undersized rookies, have to admit i didn’t expect kolek to have so much trouble with basic ball security, even in his infant giraffe minutes.
since i’m hyperposting. i don’t believe daniels can play point in the nba unless it’s truly faux point any more than sochan could. and i do believe the hawks can easily trade trae young for genuine future assets, though maybe not enough given their draft pick quandary.
ptmilo,
I haven’t seen much of McCain, but from the boxscore he certainly looks like a player so far. If he is, that just means I’ll have to stock up on something harder than Belgium Ale and Chianti if the 76ers are healthy.
EB I agree with your larger point, but I think the way Leon viewed it was that we had too many context dependent players in roles that didn’t suit them well, because we didn’t have an established context. We couldn’t tell RJ and Randle to mostly be play finishers because the points had to come from somewhere.
Now that we have Brunson/KAT/OG/Mikal, we should be more amenable to getting guys who do some limited things really, really well. As you note, whether Mikal specifically was worth the price we paid to establish our larger context is a wide open question, and the early returns suck.
Let’s not confuse sellers remorse over one particular player with “they overpaid for OG.” You, TNFH, and I are all on that “hill” — at least if TNFH is coming fully clean. Different reasoning to get there, but it’s a big tent. I don’t have “sellers remorse” over explicitly RJ. He was, is, and will likely always be a tradable player.
I like TNFH’s “context dependent” idea. The vast majority of association players fit into that box. Even a KAT could be said to be that, if you buy into the idea that’s he’s a defensive sieve at 5. (And then of course the job of the GM is to get players that fit the context and for the coach to construct a context that best fits the player on his roster.)
Ultimately, this is a team game. That’s hard to escape for virtually everybody.
RJ
eFG+ 84
TS+ 85
I’m sorry, but those are BRUTAL numbers. The secondary stats are nice, especially the assists, but those are Elfrid Payton efficiency numbers. Good luck trying to win games when the guy with the ball in his hands all the time has a TS+ of 85.
That is just a losing player, period. There is just no way to work a guy like that into a winning team.
Early Bird Writes,
100% agree with your last post.
Specific to Bridges, IMO, we are underutilizing Mikal.
That’s one reason I was willing to raise the question of whether we would have given up so much for Mikal (who projected to be 2nd option initially) if we knew were going to get Towns who pushed him down the pecking order to 3a or 3b with OG.
But IMO, he’s the same more versatile player now as he was with the Nets. That player will come in handy when Towns, Brunson or OG is out and he’s asked to do more.
Maybe he shouldn’t still be tweaking his shot at this stage, but I think his 3 point shot will revert to the means as long as the shot distribution is similar to the past. His defense looks fine at time to me, but inconsistent. We’ll see.
They did, however, beat Boston with Dyson at PG and Trae out. (This was mostly a setup to get this fact out, I have no idea how good Dyson is at PG).
I agree with Z-Man on RJ so far this season. Right now he’s being asked to do way more than he’s capable of doing because of all the injuries in Toronto. If he remains this inefficient when he’s asked to do less creation for himself and others as they get healthy, then Toronto inherited our problem. But he showed some signs of progress post trade and in the Olympics. You can’t just disregard all that because he’s not a PG and #1 option like he’s basically being asked to be now. That mild defense said, he ain’t OG. 😉
Part of my issue with Bridges is that he doesn’t get involved with the offense much. It’s one thing if he’s scoring 15ppg but drawing defenders and passing out of double teams. Instead, he stands in the corner for most of the game waiting for the ball. I’m sure this is partly Thibs, or perhaps we’re building towards a more nuanced offense, but he’s just not doing much.
During that stretch run when Brunson took over, Bridges just stood in the corner. Even when the double came, they weren’t getting the ball to Bridges. I only recall one drive he had for a kickout to a Hart 3.
Maybe bricking above the break 3s is too limiting because you need to stick him in the corner without much room to drive. He’ll figure out his shot, and I know he can still provide offense, he just hasn’t been.
Neither does OG. They have the same (low) usage rate. Mikal actually averages about 40% more assists per 100 possessions than OG.
They’re both low-creativity, low-explosiveness wings. (**) Mikal at least has a history of being something more, albeit a short one. That guy is nowhere to be seen at the moment; obviously, Leon expected him.(*) Once you had OG, literally the last thing you needed was another one who wasn’t as good defensively.
(*) As did the Vegas odds and projections.
(**) Who don’t rebound either.
I nailed it:
https://knickerblogger.net/2023/12/31/knicks-morning-news-2023-12-31/#comment-876832
Early Bird Writes
I’m expecting Bridges to average in the mid teens (17-18) somewhere. Maybe it will be a little less if OG is being more aggressive. If he’s doing too much standing around, that may be part his fault, part Thibs fault and part Brunson’s fault. I’m not sure, but he’s always going to be 3a or 3b with Towns and Brunson talking most of the shots. So there’s a cap on his scoring unless he happens to get a great matchup or have a hot hand on some nights.
This is laughable. I’m “coming clean” about what, exactly? The same take I had on the day of the trade, that the verdict will depend on IQ? Real embarrassing confession you got out of me!
For the record, right now the trade for OG looks like an absolute heist. RJ stinks, we got the 34th pick pretty painlessly anyway, and IQ has been mostly injured. That could change, of course.
OG’s contract is a separate issue and I find conversations about it boring because he was so obviously going to get the money from somewhere. I still don’t think it’s an “overpay” because I think there would be 8+ interested teams if we were trading him, which we aren’t and shouldn’t because he’s good as hell.
They did, however, beat Boston with Dyson at PG and Trae out. (This was mostly a setup to get this fact out, I have no idea how good Dyson is at PG).
daniels was great in that game but it was really keaton wallace at point with daniels and jalen johnson equally sharing the leftovers
when will noble admit he loves cam reddish
My Stuyvesant HS senses are tingling due to the gaps in this logic. But others have beat me to it.
The only reason it wasn’t easy for most of us is because we had to give up IQ. But when you have the opportunity to get a frontline well-fitting starter for a quality bench player who is stuck behind a superior starter, you gotta make that move.
Yeah, but that’s wrong. But in even that event, it doesn’t matter. There are multiple possible perceptions of why the trade was an overpay. But ultimately the overpay hill is the same “hill” — at least for those who are truly coming clean.
If you think IQ can wind up as the better player, it was an overpay virtually by definition. If you don’t think IQ can wind up as the better player and you think RJ stinks or is a negative asset, there’s virtually by definition no way it can be an overpay and you should just rest peacefully.
… and in the latter scenario to be expressing qualms is just posing and not coming clean.
I think it is enlightening, but maybe not flattering. The law of diminishing returns applies to context independent guys, and the key is finding the correct context dependent guys because they’re cheaper.
Porzingis, for instance, is very much a context dependent guy (Dallas was the wrong context). The Celtics were best served grabbing him than paying a kings ransom to add an independent guy as their 5th starter.
And Bridges, because he’s our 4th independent guy, doesn’t seem to add more than the cheap context dependent guy he replaced. If KAT and OG were not here, he probably would.
I think Bridges has been fine offensively except his above the break three point shooting which I expect to revert to the mean and his free throw attempts which I am guessing will increase but is a bit more worrying in my opinion. He is also providing a decent pressure relief valve with his midrange game. His shots at the rim are down and I would love to see that improve but he is still getting a good number of shots off at very good efficiency from 2 point range. And his assist numbers are as good as when he was a #1 option in Brooklyn.
On two point shots per 36:
Phoenix – 58.6% on 6.0 shots
Brooklyn – 50.4% on 9.8 shots
New York – 61.5% on 7.1 shots
Assists/Turnovers per 36:
Phoenix – 2.6 assists – 1.1 turnovers
Brooklyn – 3.5 assists – 2.0 turnovers
New York – 3.4 assists – 1.5 turnovers
So his 2 point shooting is somewhere between Phoenix and Brooklyn with efficiency rivaling his best years in Phoenix and attempts being somewhere between Phoenix and Brooklyn. Likewise, his assists are right where they were in Brooklyn with turnovers between his expanded role in Brooklyn and his smaller role in Phoenix.
His three point usage is right in between as well, his efficiency is not:
3pt shooting:
Phoenix – 4.3 3PA – 37.6%
Brooklyn – 7.4 3PA – 37.3%
New York – 6.0 3PA – 32.9%
I fully expect his 3pt% to revert to the mean which will make his stats and efficiency look a lot better.
The one red flag I see is his FTr:
Phoenix – 21.0%
Brooklyn – 27.6%
New York – 0.66%
This could be a bad sign but most likely it is more to do with his role and lack of attempts at the rim and hopefully will improve. I don’t think he has all of a sudden lost the ability to draw fouls but if it is a sign of declining athleticism or aggressiveness that could end up being a problem.
Overall, offensively he is right between Brooklyn and Phoenix when it comes to shot attempts and more in line with Brooklyn when it comes to passing so that seems like what we should have expected considering he was never going to be a #1 option like he was in Brooklyn.
The much more concerning thing regarding Bridges is his defense which has not been as good as it was in Phoenix and while it seems to be getting better he is still a long way from where it needs to be to justify the trade. If he isn’t a very good, borderline elite defender then the trade, which already was a massive overpay, becomes pretty bad.
EB said it better than me.
This team is showing Leon the cost of changing your mind.
He paid over the ends for Bridges when the context was “Nova Knicks” and that was defensible. But the KAT trade completely changed the context, and now it looks like a horrible mistake.
I agree entirely with the principle, but they couldn’t have really known their context if their most recent move was the acquisition of KAT. That was a secular context-changer.
FYI, football season for us ended last night. Four other of our fall sports ended this past week (thankfully lol). Imma have a bit more time in the short term to chime in on here.
You’re welcome to your opinion. It’s just that there’s been tangible evidence to support that the trade has worked well for us.
Do I also think you’re using this period where the team is trying to work out team synergy issues with its new players as an opportunity to cite shortcomings? A lil bit 😄
Wanna know why #lolKnicksAD is secretly high on the Knicks now? Because as a coach, he believes in betting on top talent working it out sooner or later.
There is a part of me that wants to pivot away from Bridges already. “Give it time” isn’t always the correct decision. Sometimes you have to make fast assessments.
I wouldn’t just dump Bridges but I would love to trade him for two context dependent guys who fit perfectly.
Look at what the Hawks got for Murray, for instance. If you could get the equivalent of Dyson Daniels, Larry Nance, and two unprotected firsts for Bridges, would you really hesitate?
Dyson Daniels alone is already better than Bridges. We’d be lucky to get a mid first rounder for him at this point.
To me it looks like the athleticisn has dropped off substantially, maybe from trying to keep the streak alive despite being hurt past year. Sudden inability to guard the perimeter coupled with massive FTA rate drop-off is pretty much the reddest possible flag on that.
One silver lining is that Mikal has a tradable contract. (*) You’re never going to get back the acquisition cost and in reality that often keeps GMs from moving on, but sure, I’ve seen enough to move on for the right basketball package coming back.
The FT rate is a big red flag, as is the defense. Looks like he peaked at around 26.5 years old, which eleventy billion professional athletes over the years have done. I actually went to his first game as a Net and watched a few on TV and then most of their playoff games — he’s nothing like that player now.
(*) They escaped disaster when he turned down the extension, and obviously in basketball terms you don’t even think of giving him that longer max. You thank the basketball heavens and move the fuck on.
That isn’t true. We only got it because we traded the 26th pick for 5 seconds and then used the three best ones to get 34.
We traded 26 for 34, a Memphis 2nd, and a Boston 2nd. I’d call that painful.
The 31st pick was pretty valuable and a needless throw in.
I wouldn’t be so sure. Atlanta got back a lot of what they gave up for Murray after he had two very disappointing years.
The tradable contract is key.
Houston always wanted him. That team is dying to make a consolidation trade.
One of the problems we have here is that we have a GM who has a “get the best available players” mindset and a coach with an “I only coach one way” mindset.
GM and coach are the “fit” problem here. As of now, the coach is not getting the most out of the talent.
Why does Houston need a consolidation trade? They are younger and better than us with a shitload of young talent and great coaching. They’re like our Jan 2024 team.
Cmon yall. Wanting to trade Mikal after 12 games is not Knickerblogger-grade content. Sure, gage his value if you want, but give him some time to learn the system and what not. I think he’ll be fine.
Sorry, ess-dog. But it absolutely is KB-grade content and it should be something Leon is considering.
I’m not panicking over his shot. But we bought Bridges for a version of this team that doesn’t exist anymore and there are some plain issues with how he fits the one that does exist.
A reverse consolidation trade like the one Atlanta made with Murray makes all the sense in the world. And not every situation demands patience.
“Dump Mikal Bridges bc he’s off to a bad start” is a dumb take.
“Consider trading him for multiple pieces that fit better bc it’s hard to imagine utilizing him fully on this team” is pretty reasonable, IMO.
Hubert, there’s one thing against your reasoning that Leon wouldn’t trade for Mikal if he knew he would have the opportunity to trade for KAT.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/41726118/all-little-moves-knicks-made-get-karl-anthony-towns-new-york
All these little moves that were made to allow us to trade for KAT (or a player with the same salary) were made while planning to keep Mikal at the same time.
There’s also the factor that if he’s a declining asset, his value goes down each day that passes. He’s a lot more marketable to a sucker team if the pitch/rationalization is that they’d have him for two post-seasons rather than just one.
On the other other hand, he becomes an expiring next year. Unless they do something stupid like extend him at retail, which I’d still make the most likely scenario.
I didn’t say that. In fact just a few days ago I said Leon did know this was possible when he traded for Bridges.
What I did say was Leon changed his mind. When he traded for Bridges he was unwilling to include Donte in a KAT deal. Eventually he was, and that changed the entire context of the team.
Well, the trade could work sending Randle with either Mitch or DDV, but these moves almost to the cent would only be needed if the salary going out was DDV’s. Mitch makes more money. So i think deep down Leon knew there was a chance no team would take on Mitch, because he’s injured, and that he’d have to send out DDV to make the trade.
But this is because Mitch makes more money, so it’d be way better for us to have sent him instead of DDV. We would have more room under the 2nd apron, because there’s almost 3M differential between the two.
I’m not against the idea eventually Hubie, but who can we find that’s really a better fit at 2-guard than Mikal?
Sure, if this team remains stagnant most of the year, would I entertain trading Mikal for a real PF who can also rim-defend and a SG who can shoot/handle/defend like a beast? Of course, but a. Show me that fit and b. Why would the other team make that trade?
I agree. And I think he was unwilling to do that until Rick Brunson allegedly held him to the fire.
I am never going to be convinced by any of the “we could’ve gotten the same deal for less if Leon just Negotiated Harder” arguments that pop up too frequently, and 26 for 34 and two seconds in a draft widely regarded as unpredictable and flat is just not a very big deal.
Guys, I’ve expressed immense frustration with Bridges, but looking to sell low on him after 12 games is not the answer.
Eason and Dillon Brooks?
“Guys, I’ve expressed immense frustration with Bridges, but looking to sell low on him after 12 games is not the answer.”
There’s a saying in the stock market — “trying to catch a falling knife.” Stock’s at 80, then sinks slowly to 50 and some people say “Ooh, what a bargain this stock is, a year ago it was an 80 dollar stock” not realizing there’s a reason it’s at 50.(*) So they buy at 50 and then it goes to 40 and then 35 and they don’t sell because it would be “selling at a low.”
Then it goes to 30 and then to 25 and finally they realize they f’d up. By that time, they’ve cost themselves a ton of money.
Mikal’s got “falling knife” written all over him.
(*) The analogy with Mikal and Leon isn’t perfect here, of course — Leon paid $80. Well, really he paid like $150 but let’s not get too far afield and lose the plot.
This ^^^^^^^^^^
Dillon Brooks is ancient and awful, so you’d be moving Deuce to the starting 2 spot.
I like Eason a lot, but that’s not a good answer.
Trying to be realistic here. You aren’t getting something like Eason and Amen Thompson.
any update on Towns availability for tonight? He’d be really useful against a Nets team with no bigs
Both KAT and Deuce will warm up and are GTD… 🤞🏻
From Bondy, about Jericho and Huk:
https://x.com/sbondynba/status/1858275284098695321?s=61&t=rCQRO7yjlVQ7a4q4G8yX2A
Julius with the buzzer beater three to eclipse the Suns (sans KD and Beal)
Meanwhile…
https://x.com/thestrickland/status/1858283955838988793?s=46&t=0wqff4cNt-sCGcDs-uMExw
I didn’t say sell low, did I?
I pointed to the Hawks, who got a great package for Murray, and said we should pivot quickly if we can get a package like that.
Are you telling me you wouldn’t trade Bridges today for Daniels, Nance, and two unprotected firsts, including the bucks ‘27? Really, you think that’s low?
UPDATE:
KAT will play, Deuce is out.
Me:
Read, guys.