[news.google.com] — Sunday, July 9, 2023 5:05:00 AM
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61 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.07.09)”
My extremely limited understanding of how these mid-season tournaments work in European football — aka, stuff I gleaned from several episodes of Ted Lasso season 2 — implies that they’re appealing in large part because everybody gets to compete in them, teams from many levels way down below the big one. This is just a shuffling of the same 30 teams that play each other a lot already. Seems pointless.
So Adam Silver tries to copy European (and South America) football tournaments and he misses from step one:
no games count as “double” (League AND Cup) in Europe.
It’s one of the cardinal rules, the competitions are, and must be, totally separated.
The solution would have been to “detach” some of the regular season games to play them as “tournament games only” but owners are so terrified about losing some income from home games (because nobody cares) that they had to find some kind of “duct tape and bandaid” alternative…
(facepalm emoji)
Those “cups” aren’t “midseason tournament” in European football, they’re “parallel tournaments” (usually played mid-week for most of their run)* and their “finals” are often played after the end of the “national leagues”.
And Alan is right, in “national cups” many more teams do play, not only “first-leaguers”, so you can have sometimes a real “cinderella run”.**
* English FA Cup games are an exception, they’re so imporant (the FA Cup is older than the English league) that they have “priority” over Premier League games and are often played on saturdays and sundays, postponing the league games.
** “continental cups”, as the Champions League, are different, because you “earn” the right to play in them based on your final spot in the previous year “national leagues” tables.
The stats and win/ loss from the NBA Cup Championship Game don’t count towards season statistics or standings.
Idk, i think it’s a good idea. Face it, if we’re watching Summer League Knicks games with exactly 0 prospects playing, we’re already paying attention to most of the regular season games. IMO this is mostly targeted at the marginal NBA watcher who is in for the playoffs but checks out for the regular season.
Also you can’t tell me that you wouldn’t enjoy the Knicks hoisting a trophy, even if it’s a “lesser” one. I just don’t believe that.
I think that if Fournier gets moved, there’s a spot on the roster for Martin. At least that’s what I think the team is pushing for. Also, I wonder why Moore didn’t play yesterday. The team likes him too. Jeffries can score all he wants in SL, I think he’s salary filler in a trade.
Post SL Game-1 hot takes:
For Jeffries (26 in august) and Roby (26 in february) this is the Nth SL, at least Jeffries did look decent, Roby missed some shots very badly. It’d be better for both to cross the pond.
To me, in this game, Jaylen Martin (20 in january) and Foster Jr. (21 in january) were the most interesting, while far from perfect they both showed me “something”. And how did I miss on Skapintsev (LOL)?
Keels was bad, maybe he’ll get hot in one of the next games.
He’s still only 19 (20 in august) but every time I watch him he looks like nothing more than a mad bomber, I was expecting more progress.
I’d like to watch Fordham’s Moore, maybe he’ll play tonight.
has always seemed like a big mistake to me. hardly disastrous as implemented, just modestly dilutive, gimmicky, and pretty unlikely to matter, even over time. but just a giant waste of silver’s white whale, when he could have been going after one of the genuine pain points in the game. starting it like a week into the season seems especially weird. it will be the like the 5th game of the season for some team and they’ll already be starting group play. sends kind of a weird signal about your main thing when you’re already gilding the lily before the audience even settles in.
i’m choosing to hope that if it doesn’t work it might somehow pivot to something actually meaningful, since shutting it down entirely would seem embarrassing. like the idea to create lottery odds incentives for bad teams to win late season games.
Never liked the idea, still don’t, but willing to keep an open mind about the tournament.
I’m guessing that there is at least some truth to the Zion rumors, but don’t think anything will happen. It doesn’t seem to make sense unless Julius or RJ is involved, and I wouldn’t trade either guy for him…not with Zion’s issues about health and availability. If I had to trade one of them it would be RJ, and then we’d have a starting lineup of Mitch, Julius, Zion, Grimes and Brunson…which would have issues outside the arc and therefore with spacing, but would destroy most teams on the boards and at the rim….until Zion went down with a leg injury.
So I thought Wemby looked pretty easy to bully in his debut, and have been wondering if he might be best served as a wing, splitting time at the 3-4 and getting none at the 5…in other words, keep him out on the perimeter as much as possible, at least until he gets stronger. If he learns to make that Tim Duncan bank shot, how can you possibly stop him?
I agree Z-Man,
Wemby did play a lot of “4” on offense in Europe and more or less a third of his shots were threes.
Maybe to start the Spurs will use him with Collins (finally healthy) at the “5”, in a lineup where both can hit the three and both can exploit missmatches inside.
Re: trading Zion, I think the Pels specifically wanted to trade him for Scoot at #3 (I can see why, he looks ridiculous already), but I can’t imagine they’d want to trade him for anything we have. If he’s healthy (big if), that’s a 50-win team, so they’ll give it another shot.
As for SL, Martin does seem to have nice tools. It was a major blunder not having a PG on the roster, though, because hardly anyone actually got him the ball (Keels is so clearly not a PG.) I agree, it will be interesting to watch Moore if he plays.
Well, let’s say you have a favorite player, and that player isn’t very good, but you want to argue that he is, in fact, very good, but you don’t have any evidence, you can now hope that he has one of his occasional hot streaks during the group-play segment so that you can point to it a lot when claiming that the player ups his game when it really counts.
Other than that, I doubt any fans will really care much about the play-in tournament.
Since things are kinda slow, I’ve been reading last year’s off-season threads (yikes!). It’s always interesting for me to look back and see where my mindset was going into a particular season…and last year’s was particularly interesting because of all the unknowns going in. This particular thread is worth reposting…it has no real conflicts and a link to a great preseason pod with Silver, Katz, and Dubin hashing out the then upcoming 2022-23 season. The KB poster dialog was very measured and interesting on many fronts. Also some great non-basketball stuff, and the news that my kid’s MRI was better than feared.
One development that I think no one saw coming was the perma-benching of Fournier and a healthy DRose, and that sort of tainted the discussions about playing time, etc. But beyond that, lots of stuff from all parties aged really well!
i think the genesis came from a fever dream of bill simmons way back when he had his old columns that he pitched the fun-as-hell midseason tournament.. which wasn’t really fleshed out at that point either but he wanted a march madness style bracket challenge for the last 1 or 2 seeds… which eventually happened in the form of the play-in tourney…
then fast forward 5-7 years… i think he eventually got silver on either grantland or theringer podcast and he was pitching the idea and silver loved it and apparently it wasn’t just lip service…
it’s pretty clear with this prize pool that they’re not really investing too much into this and if they’re not investing too much into it i can’t really see the players investing…. if the owners are going to cheap out then they’re not going to make it successful….
Okay, but will Vildoza be available for it?
We have Martin on a 2 year 2-way deal already, so there isn’t much reason to sign him to the big club.
The only exceptions would be if he dominates the g-league so much that another team makes him a huge offer as a RFA or he warrants a rotation spot.
Definitely encouraging to see Martin scoring a fair amount already.
“Silver, Katz, and Dubin”
Sorry, Duncan…not Silver
Great thread z-man it really highlights how right I am about everything
no games count as “double” (League AND Cup) in Europe.
It’s one of the cardinal rules, the competitions are, and must be, totally separated.
Max, this is why I like the NBA plan so much. To me that cardinal rule was to protect vested interests and just led to fixture congestion and fan fatigue. Having games count as “double” immediately makes the game more important (however marginally but still).
Now that I think about it,
another thing about the mid-season tournament that I find “not fun” is the keeping of the East-West structure.
In his quest for newness Silver could have erase that (less and less meaningful) limit.
If you’re creating a “new” tournament from scratch, let the “best” teams advance, no matter where they’re located…
MichaelScottAsksTobyWhyAreYouTheWayYouAreDotGif
“Cup” makes zero sense in a closed, franchise league. It makes a lot of sense in an open, multi-divisional structure with promotion and relegation.
Axiomatic and elementary. Less than zero interest.
Lots of cups in closed leagues that are successful
DRed for GM
Honestly, that’s what I was thinking, DRed. People were actually pretty off on a lot of predictions, chief among them that our success would rest on RJ’s improvement. In fact, his effect on the season was negligible at best. It was Randle’s return to form and Brunson’s enormous impact that led the way….and, to a significant degree, Thib’s creativity as coach.
Before the season on another thread I said that the path to success would be on Thibs being flexible enough to cater to our strengths. I said we needed to go 10 deep and run hard, tiring out the other team, surviving at least an average offense by being near the top in the league in pace. Thibs in fact did that for over a month – and when it wasn’t working, changed course by benching a few presumed rotation players and slowing the pace way down. I felt this was encouraging, because Thibs was flexible in highlighting our presumed strength, and then flexible again in trying something else when that turned out to be a bad strategy.
He is by no means a perfect coach, and his punishment of certain players (Kemba) for not doing what he wanted can be petty and vindictive. But there are only a handful of coaches better than him in the league.
Most cups offer something different to the league. In this case, it is going to be exactly the same games as before plus some kind of final, I don’t get it.
I’ve never been happier for the All-Star break, I can’t continue watching this Yankees team. Maybe a few days off will get me back in the mood but I doubt it.
“I said we needed to go 10 deep ”
Incredibly, terribly wrong, Rama. Wrong wrong wrong. Nine deep.
I feel comfortable in my belief that this cup thing is just another sign of the apocalypse.
Jaylen Martin seems worth keeping an eye on, nice looking shot, athletic, very young…he has no idea how to play D but maybe that’s something that can be coached up.
I’ve just given up. It’s not just that they’re mediocre, it’s the ways in which they’re mediocre, most of which could have been foreseen long before this team took the field in April.
“Incredibly, terribly wrong, Rama.”
Lol well it was fundamentally wrong. What I thought would work did not work. But it was encouraging that Thibs 1) also thought we should run and go 10 deep, and then when that proved wrong, 2) went slow and focused on winning the possession battle with boards and low turnovers. Literally the opposite approach, based on what our actual strengths proved to be. Which showed that he could figure out how to get the best out of what he had and not stick with a rigid orthodoxy. E derides it as low-ceiling hustlebunny stuff, but it’s exactly what coaches are hired to do: figure out how to win. In the end, Thibs was much more flexible than D’antoni, and I had thought them more similarly inflexible. (Both are a-holes when they decide a player doesn’t fit, though.)
this summer league team reminds me of the days of rooting for lance thomas playing “the right way”, and jared jeffries being the most “complete” player on the roster…
watching this broadcast on nbatv and it sort of sounds like isiah thomas is on the mic…
hard to think of someone sounding more full of bullshit when they speak than isiah thomas…
It’s Isiah and it’s awful
It looked decent in the 1st half, this half…
hi rama, my favorite sci-fi story of all time is: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress…
I find it incredibly believable and immersive…
do you have a favorite story or series?
Tortured myself at Yankee Stadium today. At this point why the hell not just call up Peraza, Wells, and Florial? I’m well aware there’s no guarantee of MLB success for any of these guys, especially Florial, but between LeMahieu, Donaldson, Trevino, and quite frankly Stanton they don’t exactly have to tear the cover off the ball to be upgrades.
If they aren’t upgrades, fine. You made the team more watchable and gathered valuable data about your organizational health. I’d much rather lose with them than lose with a bunch of obviously washed scrubs.
the rockets and pistons have interesting summer league players…
still terrible basketball…world cup can’t come soon enough…
I’m kind excited about Jaylen Martin. He was the third best player on an Overtime Elite team behind the number four and five picks in the draft; and was probably hurt in other team’s draft assessments because he missed two months of the overtime elite season. He seems to be doing well in summer league so far.
On the other hand, judging by the stat sheet, Keels isn’t doing much. And the Knicks seem to have lukewarm feelings about him, because they haven’t yet signed him to a contract. They’ve just made a qualifying offer, which only guarantees him $50K. I think he’s destined for G league again most likely and may or may not get an actual two way contract.
I can’t think of a worst yankee situation this year than still putting josh donaldson in to the lineup…
Geo man, I just heard about a book called Projest Hail Mary, which is a science fiction book considered one of the best of 2021. I haven’t read it. Does anyone know anything about it?
I’m not that worried about Stanton, he’ll probably go on a tear sometime during the 2nd half.
But JD, DJ and maybe even Rizzo are washed, they still don’t have a LF and it’s probably time to move on from Gleyber.
They’re pitching will keep them in the race and most likely allow them to still grab a Wild Card spot especially if Judge returns by August and obviously if they trade for a bat or two. But this offseason they need to seriously reevaluate alot of things first and foremost is Boone as manager.
Gleyber can be frustrating (especially today…) but to me replacing him sounds like a luxury that should be a pretty low priority. He’s one of the few consistently above average hitters in the lineup and not a disaster in the field. Not great, but we have about 20 more pressing issues IMO.
What’s annoying about Stanton is he’s become basically a full time DH way earlier into that contract than we bargained for. You can deal with that if he’s a 140+ wRC+ guy, but at 110-120 it’s arguably not worth the flexibility sacrifice.
Moot point, since given his contract we’re gonna be playing him and hoping for the best for years.
Its a really good fun read. He previously wrote The Martian, but mixes in more of the fiction part of science fiction which I prefer.
I’d call it hard sci-fi but with a much more engaging writer than most of the hard sci-fi I remember.
Absolutely worth reading, I think I finished it in a week or two.
I know this wasn’t directed at me,
but The Three Body Problem is the best sci-fi book I’ve read of the last 15 years by a wide, wide margin.
EB thanks. I’ll give it a shot
Only half paid attention.
Martin has something but needs a lot of work still. Impressive showing coming from playing HS competition to quasi-NBA level talent.
Keels is way too slow to play PG, can’t get over halfcourt cleanly. Still looks too heavy to me. Maybe he can play SG, which I think he does more in the g-league, but I’m skeptical just based on how slow he looks.
Roby was much better
Foster had a couple nice blocks
Charlie Brown and Skapintsev looked solid but they should since they’re 25 & 26
Gleyber is a FA after the 2024 season, they have to make a long term decision on him soon.
Foster Jr. might be the most interesting guy on our roster, unfortunately we don’t have any kind of rights to him.
He was a 5-star recruit with offers from some serious programs. Was ranked 9th on ESPN’s top-100. Ultimately went the Ignite route, and was highly productive for them. Still went undrafted for whatever reason, #39 ranking on my 2022 big board notwithstanding.
Maybe we can sign him with the newly discovered savings we have from the DDV unlikely incentives? Interesting flyer who technically fills the backup PF need.
I saw that Charlie Ward was at the game today, he was apparently Jaylen Martin’s coach in high school. I used to be frustrated back when he was the starting PG cause I always felt that PG was our biggest weakness but re-watching many of their games Ward was alot better than I remembered. Looking back at his stats I believe one season he lead the NBA in defensive BPM too.
Anyway that was my daily 90’s Knicks reference since don’t think there’s much to discuss about this Knicks Summer League team.
Oh damn Wemby is playing now, something to watch at least!
Just saw that Brandon Miller shot 4 for 18 including 0 for 7 from 3pt range today, oof.
Nice book references guys, thanks. In 20 seconds on the interweb, I discovered that a) The Three Body Problem was the first book in a trilogy (didja read the others, Early Bird?), and b) Ryan Gosling has been chosen for the lead in the movie version of Project Hail Mary. For what that’s worth (never been terribly impressed with ol’ Ryan).
well at least the summer league team has a couple half intriguing guys, that’s more than I was anticipating.
well noted:
– Project Hail Mary
– The Three Body Problem
thank you KfniNJ…thank you EB…
Wemby putting on a show!
Three Body Problem – I remember starting it, enjoying it, then getting distracted and putting it down… Must return to it.
Saw the latest Mission Impossible movie last night.. Tom Cruise really really really likes running in these movies. Also, take a drink every time someone in the movie says “The Entity” with a stern look on their face – you’ll be dead from alcohol poisoning many times over.
probably not on anyone’s radar but the next mega prospects in hs faced off this week in the eybl top 100 (u16) and cam boozer (yes carlos’s son and 1 of a pair of twins) and cooper flagg have generated quite the buzz…
of course with 16yo’s all sorts of things can happen .. just ask emoni bates… but they are so far ahead of everyone in their class that they are on a trajectory to surpass some of the best hs prospects in the last … 15 years? yea probably oden and durant level of prospects altho they both project to be modern 4s….
they are still a ways off as their eta is 2025 but the nba eagerly awaits their arrival….
Yeah, read all 3 but the 1st is self-contained if you only want to commit to 1
Wemby made some plays in that game that are pretty eye popping. He tries to do too much with the ball at times, and takes some really awkward shot attempts, but that stuff seems very fixable. The way he snuffs out shots anywhere in his vicinity is really impressive, and he has some real fast twitch reflexes for a guy his size.
I don’t know if he’s going to be a great player, but I’ve never seen a player with a similar physical profile. Incredible combination of length and speed.
It seems very Knicksish that one of our leading players in summer league is Charlie Brown.
Don Mattingly is objectively horrible as a manager, and I’d be thrilled if they hired him over Boone, that’s how much I hate Boone. I’ve never seen a manager this bad. Stump Merrill would manage rings around this guy.
Plus one for The Three Body Problem trilogy, great sci-fi.
Altered Carbon is also brilliant (the book, not the series) and I loved Ready Player One as well.
The Last Policeman is another fun book, but only the 1st in the trilogy. I couldn’t get through the 2nd, and heard the 3rd was clunky. But the 1st is excellent.
Charlie Brown is a good man.