[news.google.com] — Thursday, November 17, 2022 2:13:22 AM
Knicks’ Isaiah Hartenstein: Bottoms out in win CBS Sports
[news.google.com] — Thursday, November 17, 2022 2:10:52 AM
Knicks’ Derrick Rose: Matches season-high 13 points CBS Sports
[news.google.com] — Thursday, November 17, 2022 2:08:00 AM
Carmelo Anthony gets strong endorsement from ex-Knicks coach ClutchPoints
[news.google.com] — Thursday, November 17, 2022 1:50:00 AM
Julius Randle, Knicks break Denver curse after 16 years ClutchPoints
[news.google.com] — Thursday, November 17, 2022 12:42:07 AM
Knicks beat Nuggets 106-103, notch first win in Denver since 2006 Elite Sports NY
[news.google.com] — Thursday, November 17, 2022 12:31:53 AM
Recap: Denver Nuggets fall to New York Knicks Denver StiffsDenver Double! Knicks End Dubious Streaks vs. Nuggets Sports IllustratedKnicks have proven in past it may take some time to flip season: ‘Room to grow’ New York Post Knicks rally, end skid against Jokic-less Nuggets, 106-103 CBS SportsKnicks 106, Nuggets 103: Scenes from a magnificent ending to the Denver losing streak Posting and ToastingView Full Coverage on Google News
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 16, 2022 10:46:11 PM
NBA: New York Knicks at Denver Nuggets | Fieldlevel | mdjonline.com MDJOnline.com
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 16, 2022 9:45:00 PM
GameThread: Knicks @ Nuggets Denver Stiffs
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 16, 2022 6:02:41 PM
Brunson the Belieber? Knicks’ Star Expounds on Pregame Ritual Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 16, 2022 5:00:00 PM
Did Knicks make right call with offseason handling of Cam Reddish? Daily Knicks
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 16, 2022 4:55:01 PM
KAT To Knicks Rumors Are Starting Again Zone CoverageReport: Teams calling Knicks about potential Immanuel Quickley trade NBC SportsKnicks Trade Rumors: Immanuel Quickley Subject of Calls From Multiple Teams Bleacher ReportKnicks getting calls about potential Immanuel Quickley trade New York Post Shams: Knicks hoarding picks waiting for “megastar” to become available Posting and ToastingView Full Coverage on Google News
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 16, 2022 4:45:00 PM
Knicks star Jalen Brunson’s secret weapon: Justin Bieber’s music New York Post
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 16, 2022 4:33:00 PM
Evan Fournier is struggling with his Knicks benching: ‘It’s not easy’ New York Post
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 16, 2022 3:53:53 PM
This Knicks-Warriors Trade Features Klay Thompson NBA Analysis Network
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 16, 2022 3:49:00 PM
Victor Cruz, Ti?sto celebrate Kith founder’s new Knicks role Page Six
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 16, 2022 11:39:44 AM
The Knicks Are Still Loving Their New Star The Cold Wire
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 16, 2022 11:11:00 AM
Nikola Jokic-Less Nuggets Return Home to Face Knicks NBA.com
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 16, 2022 9:28:55 AM
Knicks’ RJ Barrett: Pours in 18 points CBS Sports
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 16, 2022 9:25:38 AM
Knicks’ Jericho Sims: Records double-double CBS Sports
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 16, 2022 8:15:00 AM
“Amar’e and Carmelo never really saw eye to eye” – Howard Beck talks about Carmelo Anthony and Amar’e Stoudemire’s stormy relationship Basketball Network
120 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2022.11.17)”
If we could (and did) enjoy the Knicks winning their last game in Denver (on that amazing Crawford sequence), then we can certainly enjoy this win, too (which I did).
They got to 29-34 that season, which tied them for 8th in the East and I was still rooting for them to make the playoffs. So I will enjoy these inevitable “Thibs will never get fired” wins.
You did well, guys. 🙂 Reading the thread i get that Brunson is still Brunson, a very good and steady player, that gives a lot more on offense than he gives back on defense. Randle playing great is what we want, let’s see if he can keep it going. IQ and Cam are turning our defense around, they deserve more mins because of that. Sims played great too? That’s awesome, i like the kid’s demeanor, he never changes, just there to play and nothing more. DRose’s line looks good, how did he play? Obi’s and Hart’s don’t look good. And then there’s the tank commander – RJ. I had high hopes for him this season but with each game some of it goes away. 🙁
Maybe this play sums up well how RJ’s game went.
https://twitter.com/AndrewJClaudio_/status/1593085711925751808
randle was ridiculous, particularly his frenetic, playbusting defense in the 4th. the hangover weighs a bit, though. it’s like that time my wife realized i did, in fact, know how to take the garbage out. never looked at me quite the same again.
Now, these 2 road wins change the prospects of the team, so let’s see what they can do in the rest of the road trip. If they win one, they’ll be 9-9 as i expected at the beginning of the season. So maybe everything back on track? At least record wise, i mean. I don’t know if we can win against GSW and PHO, but a revenge win in OKC seems logical if they have competitive spirit.
Speaking of OKC, they won again, this time in Washington. I wanted Shai before the season and now he’ll cost a lot more, 42 pts 6 trb 7 ast 1 blk, and with only 2 TOs, on 63.6% from the field and 66.7% from 3P land. 😮 KP put on a show too, but hey, it’s November! 😀 And please don’t talk about plus-minus anymore, it’s a shitty stat. Shai had a plus-9 and some guy named Lindy Waters III (whooo?) had a plus-32 for OKC.
First of all, sweeping a B2B in SLC and Denver is a great thing, second my bad, I was fooled by a tweet that said Bones was out… instead he was Aaron Gordon that didn’t play.
This win offsets the home loss with OKC so, in my preseason game-by-game prediction, I’m back on par at 8-7 and the best has yet to come, hooray!
Casual observations and questions:
– It’s nice to break a losing streak that goes back since Crawford’s miracle.
– Another awful game for RJ (0-16 3FG in the last 3 games). Was he sick? (and if so, why did he play so much?).
– Great game for Randle. We know that when the effort is there he’s a very good player, so I hope it’s a trend and not a flash in the pan (I still remember his 46 points game in SAC post ASG last year).
I need at least 2 months with this effort level to be sold on him again.
– Reading the boxscore, another “under control” game for Reddish. How did he defend?
– Solid game for Brunson, IQ and Rose.
– Was Hartenstein sick too? The man has disappeared all of a sudden.
– Grimes and Fournier. Couldn’t have won without their fresh legs.
– I’m sorry for Fournier. I understand the perma-benching (he’s been terrible this year) but I’m still sorry. He’s a good player, he says all the right things and apparently he’s a good teammate, plus shooters don’t forget how to shoot (he was 4th in the league in made 3-pointers last year and very good at EuroBasket this summer) but now he’s a ghost. I hope he’ll get traded soon.
– From Katz’s piece on The Athletic, after the loss with OKC: “Grimes is healthy. He (Grimes) says the short spurts are not because of conditioning”. Since that statement, zero minutes for him. I’m still perplexed.
I’ll let the roadtrip end to have more games, and maybe even the home games with POR and MEM to reach game 20, as Z-man wisely asked people to do. But Brunson definitely is good. And some players look to be turning the corner and start delivering, like IQ, Cam, Sims (!?). Randle idk, it’s good that he’s looking good, but i need a lot more good games to say he’s changed. Obi has been mostly good, but has some bad games too. Hart has been worse than we hoped, right? Mitch and Grimes are a mistery because they’re injured. DRose as backup PG looks like he’s just a guy, should we try Deuce a little to check if he can handle it? And to end, RJ is the flop of the season until now. He’s the one we needed the most to have a breakout season, and he’s looking very bad. That doesn’t go well with the ceiling of this team. And no, i’m not talking about the games where RJ was “sick”.
D Rose was solid. Brown even mentioned a few times that it looked like he was shaking off his rust.
We think dudes like him can just come back after missing so much time and pick up right where they left off but it doesn’t work like that especially at his age.
what I’m wondering is if Sims will still get minutes once Mitch comes back bc he brings a physicality on defense that we really need. I’m sure Hart will have better days but after last night I’d be more inclined to go with Mitch and Sims and only give Hart spot minutes. Sims is a bit undersized but he more than makes up for it with his hops and his strength and he can switch onto smaller players for stretches and hold his own. He was key last night.
Randle was great but it was a great team win overall. Everyone was hustling. My fav moment was when Randle stole the ball then dived to the floor to grab it and threw the pass to Brunson for the slam.
RJ was the only bad thing last night
Now to put the damper on the win that I promised yesterday.
We beat a team by 3pts without their reigning 2x MVP, leaving a collection of garbage players that’d make Oscar the Grouch envious.
At some point we’re gonna have to play a team that isn’t missing their top center.
Also, no Aaron Gordon.
I remember it being a 1-on-3 but apparently it was a 1-on-4, just that one of the guys decided he didn’t actually need to do anything because it’s RJ.
Hartenstein didn’t play much because Sims was giving us some real nice minutes, and then Thibs went with Toppin to close the game, which was a good choice.
One interesting thing about Randle was that we was truly playing like a madman towards the end, super emotional and aggressive, and on the post game interview he even alluded to that saying Brunson was so key because he’s so steady and helps keep him under control, and he even joked that it’s not easy to do that or something to that effect. It was nice to see him going 100% but being aware that now he has a teammate he can fully trust in those moments because we’ve seen enough of frantic Randle going bad in other games.
LOL
Looked like the empty stadium Randle we fell in love with
I can’t really blame RJ in this case, because players want to play. You could argue that he should be self-aware enough to not shoot as much as he has on this trip. But this is on Thibs. RJ is clearly sick, and clearly not right on the court, and the coach should have told him to sit out one or both of these last two games. We have Grimes. We have Fournier. Hell, we have Deuce.
Nice to see the return of Bubble Julius, even if only for a night. The version of this guy who is focused and giving effort on both ends is a very useful player.
That’s great to hear, Bruno. I really hope we have good Randle back, but i’d still trade him, maybe on the rise he’ll have value, because i don’t trust him to be good for the rest of the contract, even if he puts up 2 good months until the deadline.
Sorry, I meant Empty Arena Julius.
Which brings us back to the Mike K Conundrum: a Julius who is playing well has trade value, while at the same time may convince the FO that he is once again a core piece to be kept. It’s an incredibly narrow needle to thread.
So this players only meeting that Randle called – I wonder whether it was a mea culpa meeting? I mean, there’s no way there could be film review of those horrendous losses last week without everyone seeing how bad Randle’s effort had been. I’ve only watched parts of the 2 west coast games so far but clearly he is trying harder.
From the post-game comments it sounds like they went smaller and also had Sims in the game, allowing them to switch most screens. Randle clearly is a much better switch defender than drop defender – Thibs really needs to lean into that. The best coaches mold their schemes to fit their personnel rather than try and fit square pegs into round holes.
I am wondering whether Sims could be a real asset defensively. His feet are so quick, and his size/leaping ability prob lets him guard at least 4 positions. But of course he will be relegated to the bench whenever Mitch comes back.
Randle basically won that game single-handedly down the stretch. The dive on the floor to get the loose ball and feed Brunson was the microcosm of the whole thing. Guy would just not be denied. I (always) love riding the Optimist Express, and I’m still on it now, but the win gives me slight pause b/c of that. Can Randle do this consistently — even 70% of games. Can Randle do this in the playoffs when opponents are better and riding his case? IDK.
That said, so much to enjoy.
Brunson is for real.
Sims is jumping out of the stadium. Someone flagged Rodman as a comp for him last night. He’s green, but I think (he thinks?) he can guard anyone. If Sims locks in he could be that kind of D specialist to make Grimes the latest Guy We Used To Talk About.
IQ was great on the defensive end but made a few really (really) bonehead plays on offense down the stretch. Not to worry, but I hope he watches the tape.
Obi started very strong but missed shots badly down the stretch. I’m glad Thibs went with him and Randle for long stretches, though.
Cam was quieter on offense but hit some clutch baskets and drew some fouls. Still disruptive on the defensive end. I kind of feel like Thibs or some other coach has been telling him he can be a defensive stopper, and he’s starting to believe it. Power of positive thinking.
Thibs gotta get credit. I was screaming at my TV over some of the substitutions midway through, but his guys all bought in to the effort, and the rotations ultimately worked.
Bones. Wow. Wish we had that guy. Small sample? Or Ja, SGA, Bones all cut from a similar cloth?
Onward.
That was probably my favorite Randle game he’s had as a Knick. It wasn’t his single best performance statistically speaking but I thought he balanced the extra shot creation responsibility he has on the (seemingly many) nights RJ can’t hit the ocean from the beach with still playing within an offensive scheme nearly perfectly. He “took over” in the 4th without doing anything particularly stupid. He was also engaged defensively at least 75% or so of the time. That’s a guy I can get behind.
Way, way, way ahead of myself here, but a question to ponder: how good would Randle have to be before we start to wonder if trading him is the best course of action? Personally, I still think we should trade him pretty much no matter what. Not because of any animus towards the guy or even his game, but because we desperately need *some kind* of directional shift and that’s the most obvious one. It has more to do with where we are than anything particular to Randle, though he does have some particulars that admittedly make it an appealing option.
Anyway, we better hope Randle has rehabilitated some value because if not it’s looking like we now have two $100M+ contracts no one else wants…
Did anyone watch the whole game and see whether they were really switching a lot more?
Sims’ sheer size and athleticism seem to cause more problems for other teams than most 58th picks. He’s fun to watch.
Cam was good last night. Again not filling up the stat sheet put playing really solid defense and playing within himself.
Randle was very emotional last night but it was good emotion. Pounding his chest with a fist when he dove for the ball and then threw the pass to Brunson. Screaming in triumph when he hit a big shot, etc. It was the kind of emotion that brings teammates up, not down. So I am fine with that. And yeah, Brunson is cool headed all the time. ITs so great to see.
And yes, no Jokic. I realize that makes a huge difference. But winning in Denver is NEVER easy and it was a back to back for us. And it doesn’t matter if the rest of their team are “scrubs.” In the NBA is “scrubs” are playing well they can beat anyone. Denver was playing hard and not making stupid mistakes and hitting some ridiculous 3 pointers. But we still pulled it out.
Denver made a run with less than 10 minutes left to play in the 4th quarter and got up by 10 points. On the road, second night of a back to back. That’s the moment that most teams would give up because “hey we won last night and we’re tired.” But they didn’t. Thibs made the adjustment to go small. Everyone locked in on D and they made a final push to win the game. Thibs made a key substitution after we went up with like 2 minutes left to take out OBi for Sims for the defense and rebounding to hold the lead and it worked perfectly. Sims got switched onto Jamal Murray and was able to stay in front of him and play great defense and force a bad shot and then grabbed the rebound.
IQ had some great defensive moments. So did Randle, Cam, Sims…even Brunson.
So to me it doesn’t matter that Jokic was out. Denver’s scrubs were playing at home, rested and shooting well. And we still won on a back to back after also winning in Utah. Utah and Denver are probably the two toughest places to win on the road in the NBA.
This was a big game for us.
I looked at a Denver blog. Even the Denver fans were impressed with Sims hops and his dunk.
“Way, way, way ahead of myself here, but a question to ponder: how good would Randle have to be before we start to wonder if trading him is the best course of action?”
TNFH has hopped on the caboose of the Optimist Express, or is at least eyeing a seat?
Totally on point above. This season, I feel like Randle knows the franchise (and of course all of Knickerblogger) is asking exactly this question. He accepted a reduced role for the first several games, and I think him calling a players-only meeting is likewise evidence of his awareness.
Agree that last night’s Randle, diving for loose balls, is a completely root-able guy. I’ve always felt his temperament (if not his game) is similar to Draymond: mercurial, full of good anger at times, and bad anger/stupidity a lot of other times. In the postgame (as mentioned) Randle credits Brunson for calming him down and focussing him on what’s important. If that’s true, Randle could be a real asset for us.
Most here supported Randle’s extension with a few exceptions (noted). We all loved Randle’s empty arena season. If Randle can sustain the effort of last night for a majority of games, I’m in. If he can do that for 70-80% of the time. We could be good.
Not news but RJ is more of an issue so far in that he is making the same mistake over and over and over. Even RJ’s good games seem to come against inferior defenders, so they feel like fool’s gold, not likely to be found again in the rockier playoffs. That’s a big worry if we/Thibs build too much of our “normal” offensive usage around RJ’s perceived success.
“Maybe this play sums up well how RJ’s game went.
https://twitter.com/AndrewJClaudio_/status/1593085711925751808”
100%
Thibs is far from perfect, but imo he’s the best coach we’ve had since Van Gundy. That’s’ why I defend him. But this is on him. RJ is an all star in his own mind and Thibs treats him like a all star, but in the real world he should be the 4th option even on THIS team behind Randle, Brunson, and even Cam now. You have to yell at him out after a play like that.
On no planet in our galaxy should he be putting up this many shots now that we have Brunson and Cam is breaking out a bit. It was one thing when we had no PG and needed someone to create, but this is a different team.
Thibs HAS TO put a leash him.
He’s a good kid, hard worker, easy to like, and very determined to get better. I think he will, but he single handedly loses games some nights forcing shots up even though he’s not a good shooter and is cold as ice.
We were lucky to escape with a win last night. He should have been benched much earlier.
Thibs has to get him under control in a way that doesn’t damage his confidence, but if we want to win games, RJ’s role has to be reduced unless he happens to have a great matchup and is getting easy baskets inside that night.
>@NYPost_Brazille
RJ Barrett said he felt “horrible.” Asked if he considered sitting out: “No, I want to play through everything.”<
This is the problem.
This is his "all star" mentality. He thinks he's some kind of star that the team needs out there in order to win. That's why he wants to play through eveything. In the mean time, he stunk the joint out so badly he almost cost us an important win. His perception of what he is and what he actually is are light years apart. I feel like I have to keep qualifying this because he’s young and he’s going to get better, but it’s LEASH time. You can let this kid fire away when he’s stinking the joint out. He’s not a good shooter at 100%, let alone when he’s sick.
What i just don’t understand is that by all accounts Barrett is feeling sick. I get that he wants to play regardless, I get that he thinks it is a show of toughness and being a true man, but come on, just give him less minutes. It’s not even about the bad shooting, it’s about taking terrible shots, forcing bad drives, ignoring open teammates, just making basic selfish plays that are never going to work because he’s simply not talented enough or athletic enough to get away with them.
It’s clear in my mind that the team works better with IQ and Reddish as the 2 and 3 combo, but now we gave a huge extension to a guy who’s flat out one of the worst volume shooters in the NBA and he seems to be desperately trying to play like the all star that he is not. This situation is far more worrisome to me than Randle at the moment.
“Cam was good last night. Again not filling up the stat sheet put playing really solid defense and playing within himself.”
Setting aside the rebounding issue (I think he has to improve in that area for sure), he’s basically 4th option right now. It’s hard to get points and assists unless you have the ball. Not that I want Cam running the offense (God forbid lol), but I’d rather see him trying to create something out of nothing than RJ on a few possessions a game. He should be 3rd option. He’s a better player than RJ.
>This situation is far more worrisome to me than Randle at the moment.<
I didn't mind it too much last year because we had no PG and players were often forced to create something tough on their own. That's why I expected RJ's and Randle's efficiency to rise this year. With Brunson, you have an extra scorer that can create and a playmaker to get you easier shots. But he hasn't changed much.
Obviously this team will never rebuild, and with Brunson/Julius looking decent together (plus the come-up of Cam), the next obvious move would be to trade an RJ-centered package for a vet SF who can shoot and defend — an Anunoby type — so we can fully embrace our aspirations of mediocrity.
The only problem is that RJ is playing like mudbutt, so what team would want that idiot?
A couple of things:
-premature of me to conclude Randal doesn’t give a shit. I only wish yesterday’s game was at the Garden as that performance would have immunised him from boo’s for the rest of the season.
-I know Fournier is not playing well, but I bet he would be in the rotation for most, if not all, of the other 29 teams. Not sure I can say that about RJ.
“Way, way, way ahead of myself here, but a question to ponder: how good would Randle have to be before we start to wonder if trading him is the best course of action? ”
IMO he should be traded even if he’s playing really well because Brunson, RJ, Cam, Mitch and Randle all do their best work getting into the paint (or in Mitch’s case above the rim).
We need someone that can create space. That was the idea behind starting Fournier. The problem with Fournier was that he was giving up more defensively next to Brunson than he was adding with his shooting and the extra space he adds.
We should keep rooting for Randle to play well both for the team, for himself (so he’s happy again), and to make him more marketable if at some point a better fit or upgrade somewhere is available.
I would like to have Bones, but I’m not sure that he’s a budding superstar.
He’s incredibly streaky. I’m sure he’ll improve but he’s best as a microwave scorer for now.
I’ll also say that Lu Dort absolutely shut him down in the Nuggets home opener. Dort is a phenomenal defender and all but Bones struggled to get within 5ft of the 3pt line.
Hartenstein is clearly not a starter. Yes he had some nice stats but those only came as a backup against backup players. All he can do is score on offensive boards against smaller less athletic guys. He could maybe be a 10th man on a conference finalist team, possibly a decent ninth man on a first round playoff squad.
So apparently I just need to turn the screen off and go to bed in order for Thibs to start doing the right thing.
I was set to sue him for coaching malpractice this morning, at least for my NBA league pass costs plus millions for emotional damage. I guess I’ll wait. There’s still time.
I don’t really blame Barrett for what happened. Entirely. The refusal to pass, and the continued driving and flinging into traffic, and the 0-9 from three, are on him. When Jordan had bad shooting spells he’d focus on passing or locking down his man for a bit to get himself going. Maple Mamba is right — RJ plays like a shitty version of Kobe, as in it’s all about me. Fuck the rest of you.
But this was on Thibs. Even if he was totally against playing Grimes and Evan there were combos he could have used (see end of game). There was zero — zero — excuse for giving RJ 31 minutes last night.
On the plus side (from what I watched), one of my favorite moments was Sims going out way past the three-point line on Murray when he pulled the ball out, and staying with him on what happened next. Someone up above wrote that he could defend four positions. Make it five.
iHart was a non-factor, it’s true, but lots of open rolls to the basket were ignored by various players (especially Barrett).
Maybe when Leon made a deal with the devil to get the Knicks job, the devil said he’d make sure we’ll always have an albatross 100M contract. This offseason Leon had the idea to roster three 100M contracts, because that way two of them could play well and only the other gets the devil treatment. Smart move. 😛 Well, Brunson refuses to be bad, so RJ thought it wouldn’t be fair if it’s always Randle being the bad player and said “i’ve got you, brother. this season i’ll be the bad 100M contract and in the summer we can swap again”. 😀
Hopefully RJ gets back to his earlier at-rim % when he’s no longer sick. I’ll hold off on any longterm disappointment until he’s healthy.
That said, he still played like a complete moron the last few games.
Can’t score. Doesn’t pass. Targeted on defense.
One overlooked stat last night -only 7 turnovers. And a lot of that is because our point guard takes care of the ball
Brunson is a godsend.
There’s clips of Sims in college switching onto PGs and shutting them down. Not sure you want him guarding Ja Morant 48min but he can certainly do it against a guy like Murray at least some of the time.
For an excellent deep dive on RJ, check out this podcast with Macri and Tom Piccolo (note: it was done prior to last night’s game)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Elm1KGdgxGE
We have been very lucky in missing Gobert, Embiid and Jokic among others. But middling teams lose games like these all the time. And we have been missing our 4/$60M center for a bunch of games now.
After the OKC game I was wondering whether the team was starting to tune Thibs’ bellowing ass out. Seems like that’s not the case. Let’s see what happens after the next losing streak, which could start tomorrow.
Speaking of Mitch, it will be interesting to see what happens with Hart and Sims once Mitch is back. I mean, can you really bench Sims the way he as played? And the Obi-Randle experiment complicates that decision even more. Something’s gotta give there.
Speaking of giving….. Hard to understand Thibs’s unmitigated ride-or-die with my guys loyalty to Ju and RJ when they are playing like crap. Thibs has adapted/evolved in so many ways, benching his guys when they are causing potential losses should be next.
Hart is a bad fit with this team. His shooting and scoring is minimal. He cannot match up physically with other centers down low. This leads to terrible perimeter defense as players scatter all over the floor to prevent easy buckets. Sims and Mitch stabilize defensive positioning and can reliably get to the rim for lobs and put backs.
I didn’t see the game and I have a hard time imaging Sims guarding a point guard successfully, even though I do believe it happened. I’m trying to imagine Sims on Trae Young, but I just don’t know what it would be like. Now I’m wondering if I’ll see him actually guard Curry in our next game.
Thibs is being pretty fair with the amount of rope he’s giving players. Posters here want to replace a guy when he has a couple of bad games. It’s better to wait long enough that the player knows he earned his demotion and the coach knows the bad streak wasn’t just a blip.
i have been on the Sims bandwagon since beginning of season and I made the comparison to a young Rodman last night…the guy brings energy and plays D and rebounds…he had one play where he saw he couldn’t get the board on the first jump and he was on the left side and he jumped and tapped it off the other side of the board and his second jump is so quick (like Rodman) that he just hopped to the other side of the board and grabbed it…we need defensive rebounding…
only difference I saw in last 2 games is effort and I don’t think it is because of Thibs…i think they were embarrassed from the Okc game…brunson has used the term “playing with desperation” in the last 2 post games…to me that is code for “we’re trying harder now”…not to complicated…
It’s not that Sims can/should guard a point guard. It’s that for one or two plays if a switch happens, he can hold his own ground for a play and make life difficult. That is all you can really ask of a big man when he’s put on an island guarding a guard.
Also, RJ had a horrible game but I don’t really feel like it’s fair to say he made a bunch of bad decisions and took horrible shots. Maybe he had a few drives to the rim that he shouldn’t have done. But what I saw was a guy clanking open looks all game.
It’s ok to play him and even start him when he’s sick. But cut back on the minutes! And when Thibs yanked him that was when we made our comeback.
Yeah, put him on a leash. He got his extension. He’s not going anywhere for at least another season or two. There shouldn’t be pressure on him to prove he’s worth the contract. Right now he is not. And that is ok. Just let him continue to grow but I think we have reached the point in his development where a little tough love is the way to go.
I didn’t watch the game but i think it’s this play, KFNINJ.
https://twitter.com/IQfor3/status/1593123197582716928
“Posters here want to replace a guy when he has a couple of bad games.”
No, I want Thibs to sit someone who is clearly playing like ass so that he gets 15 minutes that game instead of 31. Next game, see how he’s doing, maybe he’s no longer “sick.” It’s not a Fournier demotion, it’s limiting the 4-18 events so that people who can actually make a basket that evening get to shoot some of those shots.
Had Thibs pulled Barrett early, maybe we win going away.
The Knicks were 9-11 after 20 games in Thibs’ first season. They were 11-15 when Leon traded for DRose.
Y’all need to chill out with these reactions, both ways.
I’m still confident in my 44 wins call. You win 44 games by playing like this most of the season, then catching fire/getting lucky for a period like in 2021. We were just like this last year, too, but we caught bad luck instead of good.
The fact that we’re not enjoying the same level of play we appreciated in Thibs’ first season is evidence of what happens when a team aims for the mezzanine:
It will make you happy once, then it will get frustrating, then you will want to fire everyone.
It will be the same team at each point, but as time goes it will become impossible to ignore the low ceiling that’s been there all along.
I didn’t watch the game but i think it’s this play, KFNINJ.
https://twitter.com/IQfor3/status/1593123197582716928
AND he gets the rebound.
There was definitely another one where he went out past the three-point line. And Murray was just like, fuck it. Fun to watch.
“Thibs is being pretty fair with the amount of rope he’s giving players.”
I thought the fact that this was clearly not the case was the one thing about which we all agreed.
I’m not even one of the bigger Thibs haters here–the coaching situation is mostly window dressing to me until we address larger questions about our direction and/or the roster–but come on man, Randle played 35 MPG last year with a .509 TS%. That’s completely berserk, especially considering his backup is a relatively promising lottery pick.
Last night RJ Barrett had one of the worst games I’ve ever seen an NBA player have. He played 31 minutes while two *allegedly* healthy players at the same position played zero.
Speaking of which, I’m just gonna keep repeating that the Grimes situation is weird and I’m confident a more normal team would be handling it differently. I understand that even if his foot is completely healthy, it takes time to return to peak conditioning. Most teams deal with that by allowing the player in question to improve their conditioning via playing professional basketball, though.
I’m inclined to think his foot isn’t healing like they were hoping it would, and instead of just saying as much they’re being weird about it, because what else is new?
So, should we fire everyone or keep them? 😀
I can’t imagine the shock Mrs. Milo must have felt the first time she saw her OS was able to take the garbage out.
“ He played 31 minutes while two *allegedly* healthy players at the same position played zero.”
This is also what I can’t get over with Thibs.
Like you said, the coach is far from the most pressing issue, but even when Thibs finally adjusts in a way you’d like to see, he ends up does something else so maddening…
Problema numero uno is clearly RJ and Randle in the same lineup and, specifically, how RJ hasn’t proven that he can even really play at an NBA level. That needs to be addressed yesterday.
Cyber – The trick with plus minus numbers is to only cite them when they confirm your priors.
Missed the game. Happy about the win. Letting RJ play at altitude when he might need an IV seems dumb.
Tari Eason did his thing with Usman Garuba as the Rockets picked up another win. I continue to believe Eason was worth drafting, although he clearly looks more like a quality role player. Frank was a pristine +7 in 12 minutes btw. Jabari continues to look like a bust to me and Sengun seems to be making a leap. Very strong numbers so far.
Mathurin seems to have leveled off while Halliburton is leading the league in assists, which is slightly frustrating.
Lindy Waters? I don’t know who he is either but seems like a productive line. That OKC squad is kind of crazy and I think is the perfect demonstration of what I would have wanted from a tank squad. Porzingis is really balling this year. Talent was never in doubt they say and it’s true.
Cleveland has really leveled off, wow.
Yes. This is the play. I flagged it last night among other posters. Keep in mind we’re up only 1 point and 25 seconds left. IQ played great D on Murray for their final possession after Brunson hit his free throws, but this D from Sims was just as valuable IMO.
I’ve seen enough to know this plan is unlikely to work, but we’re pot committed at this point with the contracts to Randle, RJ, Evan, and Rose.
We went all in after the flop trying to hit an inside straight. We’re probably going to lose, but you don’t fold before the river.
(The inside straight here = a superstar unexpectedly falling into our laps.)
In the meantime, enjoy the “competitive basketball” y’all said you just wanted to see instead of a young rebuilding roster like the one in OKC.
Gotta disagree here: even players at the JUCO level (where I work) want to play as much as humanly possible and through anything. Case in point (SHAMELESS PLUG ALERT): in the Netflix trailer for the upcoming new season of Last Chance U Basketball, you’ll see a clip of a trainer taking out one of our guys b/c she fears an injury he sustained, basically stating she fears “cartilage may get pushed up to his brain”. Next clip is him showing frustration at being taken back to the locker room.
Now I’m sure there was some creative editing going on there, but the point is that players want to play. It’s not just macho-ism or anything like that: a lot of these guys, the court/field/gym is is their solace, their center of their world, the place where things make sense even when they’re having hardships elsewhere in their lives. Also mix in that every player thinks they’re the best – a fine line that coaches have to manage (some better than others) b/c guys need that confidence to compete w/out going overboard. So RJ is not unique in that he believes in himself that deeply that he can play through his sickness.
It’s on the coach & the team docs to rein him in and decide to rest him.
Hubert, I think the poker analogy you are looking for is that we are pot committed.
BTW TNFH, you really made me chuckle in the game thread with that “these last two games are really going to mess with the “RJ is averaging X over the last N games” crowd.”
Posting from the other thread:
Saw on twitter today that IQ leads the team in deflections per 36 at 4.1 (good for 6th in the entire league.) Cam is second on the team at 2.6. What’s especially impressive is that IQ averaged 1.8 deflections per 36 last year—everything indicates that he’s taken a defensive leap.
I get the sentiment even though I really think this is unfair to the likes of MPJ, KCP, Bones and J.Murray (even though it looks he’s not quite back to peak form yet). RJ was horrible and this team couldn’t buy a three late. Randle played really well and defended probably the best he has all year, which was awesome to see (some of his bodying up on D was dare I say Mason-like). In fact, it was awesome to see the team D played in that 4th quarter to the point you gotta wonder if it’s replicable (I’d say sustainable, but we need to crawl before we walk on this one lol). And that’s with Denver not fully optimizing their possessions late.
I don’t think Grimes is healthy, so I guess it’s okay he didn’t play. But if RJ is sick you can’t play him huge minutes back to back, even if you don’t like fournier etc.
In thinking of ways to rain on this win without stating the obvious fact that Denver’s best player was absent, I have only this to ask: don’t you guys think that the elevation mystique of Pepsi Arena is a bit silly? Denver is only at 5,000ft, barely considered even moderate elevation when discussing aerobic capacity. Plus, elevation impacts endurance more than short interval output. I think Denver’s home court advantage is almost as over-stated as the fame of the World’s Most Famous Arena.
Hey hey HEY!!! Keep such blasphemous words from your lips, good sir!
(IDC if it is more for marketing vs fact these days. I grew up going to the Garden for a bunch of Sesame Street spectaculars and Harlem Globetrotter “games”. Nothing like seeing all the lights as a kid, and I can still see the light-up souvenirs and smell the hot dogs n pretzels I would pass by on my way in and out. That place is still the best in my mind no matter how many shitty years of Knicks basketball has been played there the past 20 years)
At elevations more than 5280 feet above sea level people may start to feel the effects of altitude. This varies for every individual so some people may not feel effects until they reach elevations greater than 8000 feet…with exception of one RJ Barrett….he gets affected at anything above 1000 feet…
“BTW TNFH, you really made me chuckle in the game thread with that “these last two games are really going to mess with the “RJ is averaging X over the last N games” crowd.”
The RJ brigade will likely carve out a “when he wasn’t sick” exception of some kind. You get the impression we’ll be in year 10 of the RJ Barrett experience with people still talking about how well some 11 game stretch in December of 2029 bodes for his future.
“At elevations more than 5280 feet above sea level people may start to feel the effects of altitude.”
Yup. I’ve spent a lot of time at high elevations. Denver’s no big thing, and walking around most people don’t notice anything. But I’ve gone for a run there, and things got weird.
Denver & Utah have been found to have the biggest home court advantage in several studies. It’s worth about 2.5wins a season.
And living in Denver, it absolutely affects people.
When I go another mile up into the mountains I get winded walking around. When I go down to sea-level I can run for miles.
endurance more than short interval output
NBA basketball games last for 2 plus hours. Starts play 30 plus minutes a game. Running up and down a basketball court for 30 minutes is endurance. Just because there are breaks in the action doesn’t mean it’s not endurance.
If you look at Denver’s home court record over the years, you will see that it is definitely an advantage. Is it an insurmountable one? No. But coming off a game the previous night? Absolutely it’s an advantage.
“Speaking of which, I’m just gonna keep repeating that the Grimes situation is weird and I’m confident a more normal team would be handling it differently. I understand that even if his foot is completely healthy, it takes time to return to peak conditioning. Most teams deal with that by allowing the player in question to improve their conditioning via playing professional basketball, though.”
************************
At this point the most straightforward and likely interpretation of it is that he’s out of the rotation.
I still think ideally that RJ and Randle in the lineup together is too “clunky”, but I think it’d be nice to see more of last night’s Randle with a healthy RJ. I mean I’m sure many of you feel we have enough data points to render a permanent opinion, and maybe we do. But part of me wonders if there is a version of this team with those two playing optimally, and what that version would look like if that ever comes to fruition.
Nothing changed in the big picture about this team and franchise and direction just because they beat Denver’s JV team. This win and the loss to OKC are just tactical data points in the same big picture; they aren’t grounds for to-and-fro euphoria and depression.
I am starting to get mildly optimistic about Cam Reddish’s development though. He’s looking like he might be a plus or even plus-plus defender, for starters. And he’s got very good finishing skills when he doen’t get himself out of control. He seems to be playing both pretty hard and pretty smart now, which is to the credit of the team’s development of him.
Still need more data; since I’ve been calling for it all along, I’m glad they’ve been playing him consistent rotation minutes.
It honestly might have helped to play Denver after Utah. Get a nice little layover altitude adjustment.
Yeah, RJ’s hourglass is starting to run pretty low on sand granules. No question. “The Leap” looks a lot like it’s not going to happen and at this point we have to worry that “The Plummet” will.
“Posters here want to replace a guy when he has a couple of bad games. It’s better to wait long enough that the player knows he earned his demotion and the coach knows the bad streak wasn’t just a blip.”
I agree with what you are saying. We are usually on the same page (or at least reading the same book – lol), but with RJ this is going on 4 years. Like I said, I am patient with development and was doubly patient last year because we had no PG, but he needs someone to reign him in when he’s taking bad shots or being too aggressive. We have better offensive players on this team than him now. He should not be among the leaders in shots every night and especially not when he’s not feeling well and throwing up bricks. Thibs benched him the other night in OKC, but he did it WAY too late last night.
Was Barrett actually even sick? When I’m sick with the cold or flu I tend to, you know, cough. I watched the whole first half and didn’t see any coughing or wheezing, which means he’s probably in the tail end of a sickness at most. What I’m trying to say is that the type of sickness RJ had probably wasn’t much of a reason for him to miss playing time (or much of an excuse for such poor play).
“Still need more data; since I’ve been calling for it all along, I’m glad they’ve been playing him (Cam) consistent rotation minutes.”
Yup. Cam let the team in minutes with 37. Not sure many of us expected that this season.
“Denver & Utah have been found to have the biggest home court advantage in several studies. It’s worth about 2.5wins a season.”
Back in the days I as gambling more, the typical home team adjustment was between 3 – 3.5 points. (I believe I read that it’s shrinking in recent years). It was larger for Utah and Denver.
When a team was on a B2B, there would be negative adjustment of 1 or 2 points depending on how many other games were squeezed in (3 of 4 nights, 4 of 5 nights etc..) .
If it was B2B on the road it would be larger.
If a team was on a B2B, on the road, going into Denver, during a compressed series of games, I believe that was worth close to a 10 point move in the line.
I used to look for older teams, that just played an OT game, that were B2B on the road going into Denver to bet against. But gamblers are smart. The line would move a lot from what you’d expect based just on the merits of the teams.
Reddish is becoming one of my favorite players to watch. Still bone headed as hell but less often, and his defensive disruption is exciting. Him and IQ and Timelord Sims, plus an engaged Randle and you have real defense out there.
RJ and Randle have been on the same team for 3 seasons and change now. Here are the net ratings for lineups with both of them:
2019-2020: -7 (team had an overall net rating of -6.5)
2020-2021: +2.6 (team had an overall net rating of +2.4)
2021-2022: -3.9 (team had an overall net rating of -0.1)
2022-2023: -5.5 (team has an overall net rating of -1.4)
Doesn’t take a genius to know these guys probably shouldn’t be playing a ton together. Even in 2020-2021 with them both having career years, they basically just made the team as good as it otherwise was.
Now, I think a lot of this can be attributed to the fact that they’ve both just been bad for most of their time here. However I think there’s a lot to be said for a specific fit issue for obvious reasons–you really can’t fit multiple mediocre-to-bad shooters into one NBA lineup these days.
Macri has bandied about the possibility of RJ being a 6th man, and I think it’s a role well-suited for him assuming he cleans up enough of his game to not just be the generically bad player he currently is.
The fact that it feels so politically untenable just speaks to how weirdly/poorly we handle things around here. There are much, much better players than RJ, even similarly compensated ones, who come off the bench (e.g. Herro last year, Poole).
It’s not just that RJ and Randle have been bad for a lot of the time they have been on the Knicks. Part of why they’ve been bad statistically has been the lack of a good PG required them to do things outside their skill range and the lack of space made that job tougher. But it’s also the fact they both play so similarly. You don’t want your #1 and #2 scorers to have the same skills and weaknesses. You want them to compliment each other in a way that makes them both better. RJ and Randle do not. IMO, instead of 1+1=2.25 we are getting 1+1=1.75
I’ve been to Denver a million times and one thing I can safely say is that you get drunk way faster in that altitude.
I’m inclined to think a window to trade Randle to the Warriors may have cracked open just a tiny bit.
In case anyone isn’t following, Steph Curry is having another historically good season at age 34, which is completely insane and deserves its own post, but the team is still mostly sucking because Klay has been brutal and none of their “next generation” guys have made any progress. Last night Steph put up 50-9-6 on 17/28 shooting in an 11-point loss to the Suns without Chris Paul.
IIRC Randle has a trade kicker he might have to waive, but at his base salary trading him for Wiseman, Kuminga, and Moody works. That would be a full punt on the “next generation” idea for the Warriors, and in all likelihood they could do better than Randle if they’re willing to do that.
Then again, the good version of Randle really is a good fit with them–they could use him as a switchable-ish 5 in ways we’re unwilling/unable to.
I’m sure there are other trade formulations that work too and we can quibble about whether that return is too much or not enough (I honestly have no idea either way), but the point is it’s doable.
“trade Randle to the Warriors”
I’m having trouble seeing this, but I’m greatly enjoying the image of Draymond slapping Randle upside the head every fourth time down the court until a full-on fistfight breaks out…
This sounds like a fantastic idea. I approve this trade.
Some stray thoughts-
While Randle isn’t going to play defense like he did in the 4th too often I thought he was fine if not exceptional in the Utah game and the first three quarters last night. His focus was better but IQ and Cam containing the ball and limiting how often (and how far) he has to rotate really helps. Randle is fine on the ball, probably even plus but his rotations suck- limit his rotations and the defense will look much better.
Both Obi and Cam looked a little tentative offensively closing the game- both had horrible misses on open three pointers- but nice that Thibs is showing faith in them.
On Cam: for a guy who has a reputation thinking he’s a lot better than he actually is he’s really stayed in his lane so far this season, especially lately. He’ll take a bad shot or have a terrible turnover now and then but he really hasn’t forced much. The offensive recipe right now for him is get out in transition, take open threes, and if you’re run off the line take it hard to the hoop. There are hints of an iso game but that seems a way away. Defensively, he’s been much more engaged- it seems he actually understands the scheme rather than just standing around- and his ceiling on that end looks very, very high. Like JK said yesterday it sucks that you’re probably going to have pay him something in the off season. There are going to be lots of teams with money to burn and he’s starting to look like an acceptable risk. Still, that he’s starting to look like a guy who can actually help you win basketball games is a pleasant surprise.
As for RJ: Production-wise he should be sitting on the bench next to Fournier. Or at least playing limited minutes off of the bench. He’s played 7000 minutes in the NBA- the idea that the game is moving too fast for him and he needs minutes/experience to improve seems far-fetched. And unlike Randle, it’s not like you can point to some genuinely good play in the past and say you’re playing him in hopes getting him back to that. He sucks, and has sucked his entire career- he should be playing 15-20 minutes a night until he shows he can actually put the ball in the basket.
Beyond the fact that Randle for the three GSW kids doesn’t work under the salary cap, there is no way in a million years the Warriors would do that, even if they’re ready to give up on Wiseman.
But what about a challenge trade: Randle for Draymond? The Knicks would get off Draymond’s salary after this year, Randle can do some of the things Draymond provides as a playmaker, while providing more much of a scoring threat overall, even if he’s not remotely the defender Draymond is.
I also doubt GSW does that, but it would be interesting, no?
I’ve never really understood 538’s RAPTOR other than knowing it combines box-score data with on/off data in some way. I don’t know if they’ve publicly released the formula. Anyway, some interesting RAPTOR numbers (don’t think they’ve updated them with last night’s games):
-Quickley is 8th overall in the whole damn NBA at +7, largely because his defensive RAPTOR is 5th overall at +5.5
-Brunson is 21st overall at +5.8, largely due to a +4 offensive RAPTOR but surprisingly has a +1.8 defensive figure
-Hart and Obi are the only other two positive players on the team
-Randle is dead last on the team and near the bottom of the league at -5.5, largely because of a -4 defensive figure
I imagine the Randle number will change significantly once last night’s games are factored in, but it’s still pretty shocking. FWIW, I’m more inclined to believe RAPTOR is missing something than that Randle has been *that* bad defensively.
On the upside, after last night Randle is 40th in the league in ESPN’s real plus/minus which seems every bit as dubious (if not more so) than Randle’s Raptor rating. Brunson leads the team at 22nd in the league which seems more likely.
RAPTOR should be updated. Randle was -5.0ish on defense before last night.
He’s been incredibly bad, exacerbated by playing with Fournier & RJ for big minutes. Then RJ (maybe Fournier too?) have better D-RAPM because of their non-Randle minutes. Or maybe Randle has just had fewer minutes with IQ or something?
RAPTOR also uses NBA.com’s tracking, fwiw. They don’t give an exact formula but they do give an overview of what goes into it and affects it.
From what I’ve read (or just inferred) RAPTOR is more reliable than ESPN’s RPM.
All that said, I think several other metrics aren’t even out for this season… so sample size may still be a sizable issue.
I’ve been using RAPTOR because there’s just nothing else out yet that I’d trust to figure out defense.
How about this 🙂
Well, this one is more depressing…
Jokic is killing it on offense & defense according to RAPTOR, even better than 5th best defender in the NBA *squints* Dennis Smith Jr.
Great view of Quick’s defense on the last possession: https://tinyurl.com/5n973uk4
And nice to see that the team obviously respects his defense.
Look at DRaptor for the Knicks-Sims is the worst by a mile, then it’s Randle, RJ, Fournier and Mitch.
So it’s Randle, RJ, Fournier & whoever is playing center when those guys are on the court. Interestingly, it rates Brunson really well.
DARKO is my go to but RAPTOR and LEBRON are close seconds with Dunks and Threes behind them. RPM and PER are weakest
Love the comment that RJ is more Harrison Barnes than JImmy Butler and Knicks will be a much better team once they recognize that reality when it comes to both his usage and minutes.
The problem isn’t that people think he’s Jimmy Butler- nobody thinks RJ is Jimmy Butler. The problem is people think he’s Harrison Barnes when he’s actually Evan Turner.
Thanks cybersoze
You better believe I was team #HODL on that Dennis Smith Jr. stock
“The problem is people think he’s Harrison Barnes when he’s actually Evan Turner.”
exactly…maybe even a poor man’s Evan Turner…
Supposedly we are one of the teams interested in Jae Crowder.
Knicks Twitter thinks RJ is Jimmy Butler… or at least destined to be Butler. Criticism of RJ is not tolerated, it’s like a Cult.
—–
Jae Crowder? We could use a 2nd string PF behind Obi 🤔
Dolan and Leon must be loving the way Elon is mismanaging Twitter.
I am going to miss it. Knicks Twitter is one of the best things about it.
Randle for Crowder and Saric makes too much sense for it to happen.
I don’t think Phoenix wants a power forward back. If they needed one they would have been playing him. It’s more likely they could use Fournier. But it’s hard to make the money work trading Fournier for Crowder.
There’s an uninspiring line up of three games today, all on the West Coast with late starts. I guess the NBA didn’t want to compete with Thursday night football?
Just as the vibes were improving, expect a slew of absences soon
“If they needed one they would have been playing him.”
They mutually agreed to let Crowder stay home because he was basically holding out. It’s not a decision that has anything to do with their current needs, in fact with Cam Johnson missing extended time they’re desperate for competent PF play.
Interesting. I didn’t know that. Why was he holding out?
Sarver situation I believe…
He held out because he lost his starting job to Cam Johnson.
Crowder is definitely the kind of guy we could use. I just don’t know when we’d use him.
Saric & Crowder for Fournier gets some money off our books early I guess?
Can’t help but think this is just due diligence or Knicks for clicks
Yeah. I looked at an article suggesting he might be traded soon and they don’t mention us. The Bucks, the Heat and the Hawks were mentioned in the article I read.
I’m a no on Crowder, even as a Fournier salary dump, unless they waived him immediately. The last thing we need is another aging vet on the roster. The Bucks, Hawks and Heat are better fits for him.
Beautiful clip, thanks Nicos.
If the Suns want Fournier, i think it’s a good place for him, so we do good by him. And then those two are expiring, Crowder doesn’t want to play here, he wants a contender. And we don’t want vets, so we waive both. Maybe try to find a home for them before waiving, adding 1 or 2 teams to the trade, but if we can’t find it just waive them and Fournier’s money is off the books. One vet solved.
Cyber, since I believe the end game is a mega-trade, dumping Fournier in isolation seems like poor asset management. His salary, position, and skill set make him an ideal filler piece. And the fact he is not playing probably does not diminish that value.
Yeah, i agree. Then we should wait, and Crowder doesn’t seem to make sense for us. Maybe it’s just using the Knicks name to pump up his value and manage to trade him elsewhere.