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In Jalen Brunson, the Knicks have found their point guard of the present and future Sporting News
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[news.google.com] — Thursday, November 10, 2022 5:06:32 PM
Knicks’ Derrick Rose in drastically reduced role for Tom Thibodeau New York Daily News
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Derrick Rose Unclear On Knicks Role, Trade Soon? NBA Analysis Network
[news.google.com] — Thursday, November 10, 2022 3:50:52 PM
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How Has the Knicks’ Big 3 Responded To Early Challenges? Sports Illustrated
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[news.google.com] — Thursday, November 10, 2022 1:56:57 PM
Shams: Knicks hoarding picks waiting for “megastar” to become available Posting and Toasting4 Megastars New York Knicks would be happy to trade trove of picks for Daily KnicksGreedy Knicks: Does ‘Hoarding’ of Draft Picks Signal Future Trade? Sports IllustratedThe real reason Knicks are hoarding their 8 firs-round draft picks ClutchPointsNBA Trade Rumors: NY Knicks hoarding picks to target next disgruntled star Sir Charles in ChargeView Full Coverage on Google News
[news.google.com] — Thursday, November 10, 2022 12:26:00 PM
Celtics’ Luke Kornet welcomed 2nd child, which is why he left Knicks game early MassLive.com
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[news.google.com] — Thursday, November 10, 2022 11:10:35 AM
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[news.google.com] — Thursday, November 10, 2022 10:58:00 AM
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[news.google.com] — Thursday, November 10, 2022 10:46:31 AM
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[news.google.com] — Thursday, November 10, 2022 8:40:00 AM
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78 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2022.11.11)”
Who will win the Lord Sumner award tonight? My money is on Isaiah Stewart.
I’m expecting a smooth win tonight.
Rama, it’d be more Knicksy if it were Killian Hayes, as he’s a scrub in all other games. 😛
So, who’s going to buy the Knicks? Geo? JK? Donnie?
And now i’m going for a run, at lunch time, because that’s what Dr Jowles ordered on the last thread. 😀
1. Dallas losing to the Wizards.
Christian Wood has become an important part of the Mavs. He was out last night. They also don’t have a backup PG. Cuban may have one of the best offensive players in the league and a few floor spacing role players around him, but other than that he’s starting to look pretty clueless.
2. Sims playing more minutes that Hart
it’s not just about who is better. It’s also about which Knicks players fit together and who is the best matchup against the opposing C that night.
Cool, glad we got that crucial Mavs update.
And it’s definitely going to be Killian who goes off on us tonight… that’s the Knicksiest possibility.
3. I agree with whoever said that Quick seems to shoot better off the ball. When he’s the PG he often has to try to create for himself. I think I prefer when someone else is penetrating and kicking it out to him. I still don’t see him as a PG anyway.
His defense looks even better this year after improving last year. Maybe we should give him a chance next to Brunson to see what happens. It’s not like he’s flourishing in his role off the bench. If he does start though, we may have to put the ball in Cam’s hands more often for the bench unit because we’ll need scoring. Are we sure we want that? 😂😂😂
Wouldn’t the Knicksiest possibility be Knox?
Gotta be Knox.
I was one (of many) who suggested IQ might re-discover his sublime (and weird) 3pt shot if he played more off ball. And b/c of his better D and rebounding, I also thought he might slide in nicely next to Brunson. We could look forward to NY Post features in which they say we actually have two point guards in the starting lineup. If Sims remains, and when Mitch returns, both Brunson and IQ are good with the lob.
FWIW I also think Rose, Fournier, Cam, Hart, Obi is an interesting 2nd unit. If Grimes can play, then the more the merrier.
“And now i’m going for a run, at lunch time, because that’s what Dr Jowles ordered on the last thread. 😀”
Wait, I just went rowing b/c of Jowles. What gives?
As I mentioned before, I think Thibs is making situational adjustments in who starts because no one is really standing out as being much better than his alternate. Then fit and matchup becomes the deciding factor on who starts. If he had one great center and a normal backup center he wouldn’t be alternating starters.
This is the 4th time we have had a record of 5-6 after 11 games in the last 10 years. The last time was our lone playoff appearance and the other 2 times we won 32 and 31 games, gaining lottery pick Jamal Murray for Denver and lottery pick Frank for us.
Read into that shitshow what you may, but my takeaway is that all positions–from E’s to Swifty’s–on where this team is headed are still perfectly valid.
from E’s to Swifty’s–on where this team is headed are still perfectly valid.
I love this. One thing when I read threads, and I’ve been guilty of this too, is I really hate it when people really attack each other for having different opinions about the current state of the team, specific players or the future. I mean, it’s freaking basketball, not politics. If I want to be optimistic even if the evidence doesn’t necessarily point to that, I have every right to do that. I’ve witnessed the music city miracle, saw a perfectly average NY Giants football team defeat The Patriots in the super bowl. Hope in the face of evidence is a perfectly valid way to approach your sports team. Its also perfectly valid to be pessimistic or ambivalent. I might rag on someone for thinking that way but I also won’t dismiss their arguments or think they’re dumb for thinking that.
I personally would love it if IQ starts at SG. Honestly, if we want him to be a core part of the future, why shouldn’t he start? It’s not like the Randle/Obi situation where you can argue that Randle is the “better” player.
And maybe DRose and Fournier as the guards would help Fournier find that 6th man role that he is probably best suited for on this team.
Also, I’m really hoping D Rose early struggles is just him being rusty from being out so long last year and Thibs trying to protect his minutes.
I’m not quite as pessimistic as I was after the loss yesterday today. I think we’ve had some players struggle early that we can reasonably expect to play better, so we might be average but we have the ability to be “good average” as opposed to “bad average.”
I’m still in the bar car on the Optimist Express 😉
Tonight, against a weaker opponent, I hope Thibs can straighten out what he’s trying to do and get guys in rhythm. Unlike losses against the Hawks, Bucks, Nets, etc., a loss tonight would be disheartening. We’ve blown out the Pistons twice this year. We *should* win. Let’s win the right way.
Yeah, there’s lots of casual personal attacking on internet forums and comment sections. I think its so widespread that most don’t even realize the possible effects of saying someone who disagrees with them is “delusional,” or needs to “put the bong away,” or is a “hater” or a “kool aid drinker.” Etc. Etc.
Some of it might just be ball busting or whatever, but that can be kind of hard to tell unless you know the posters pretty well. I’ve been on Knickerblogger and Jet Nation long enough to usually be able to tell the difference. At least I think I can….but perhaps I AM delusional.
Why can’t the Knicks be like this blog? Great and steady, i mean. 🙂
First i got depressed… “in the last 10 years … our lone playoff appearance”. One playoff series in 10 years? Time really flies and we suck! 😐
But then i got optimistic, because we’re in the 4th iteration of being 5-6 and the first we sucked and didn’t even had our pick, then we sucked and at least got Frank, and finally we had a good season and we made the playoffs. I see an upward trend here, so maybe ECF is not out of the question. 😀
Pistons are 30th with a bullet in Net Rating, more than 2 full points worse than the 29th team – the right kind of opponent to face after a dispiriting loss. Knox is leading the way for them with a -14.9 BPM (in only 65 minutes but still lol). Interestingly Cade is off to a very bad start also with a TS% south of .5, I was expecting a big year 2 leap for him.
I clearly need to go do 100 hex bar squats in a verdant pasture.
I feel like Hamidou Diallo would be the guy for the Lord Sumner but he seems to be injured. Which makes Cory Joseph my best candidate. Burks and Knox probably will have big nights too because that would be pretty Knicksy.
Interested to see both rookies and Cade again. So far I am not upset about missing on Ivey and Cade’s line is a major woof. Point guards may just take longer.
Speaking of which, Dennis Smith Jr had another solid game last night in a loss to the Heat. He seems to be trying for the rare sixth season breakout. WS/48 almost at .100. I don’t really believe it will happen but in my dotage I am trying harder to root for the DSjr and Cam Reddish’s of the world.
For an equal parts Knicksy and somewhat realistic candidate for tonight’s Sumner, I believe Alec Burks is making his season debut.
wait, what did jowles say?
am I supposed to be exercising?
interesting post clash fan…
I’m trying to find the right words to express…
hmmmm, maybe just that being civil is a bit underrated…
the behavior is possibly a combo of a bit of competitiveness mixed in with “kicking the dog” cuz i’m aggravated…
got upset about something someone said to me yesterday…I’m still bugged about it…different scenario than with what happens here…I care about the person who upset me…
trying though to do better with holding my tongue when I’m annoyed…
ahhhhh, this is truly therapy worthy stuff here clash fan – perhaps the behavior is tied to a fear of appearing weak…
I do all kinds of weird shit to convince myself I have no weaknesses…
seems my self is upon such shaky ground at times I feel it is essential to project strength not only with internal dialogue, but also externally too…
Ideally IQ becomes an on-ball threat longterm. I’m happy to ride out his shooting slump. He did this last year in January.
My other objections are (1) the starting lineup won’t let IQ take shots and (2) I don’t trust Rose to run the 2nd unit right now.
Well, geo, I don’t know about the psychology of why people say what they say on forums. There’s probably many motivations for people to get snotty at those behind the pixels on their screens.
I’ve been reading and posting on forums since about 1990 on the Prodigy online service….the gaming and sports forums of that time. Anybody else remember Prodigy? Damn, I can recall some online “flame wars” from over 30 years ago!
At the end of the day, I don’t get too angry about sports or people’s opinions about their teams. I mean, it’s just entertainment. Optimists, pessimists…whatever. The Knicks are gonna do what they do regardless. I guess the term “fan” is short for “fanatic,” so there you go!
There’s only one real attacker in the KB tribe. We all know who he is.
I don’t know what to make of IQ; I like him but his shooting is all over the place. Last year, it wasn’t just Jan and he wasn’t terrible that month anyway. Starting in Oct he went: 22%, 40%, 30%, 34%, 26%, 40%, 35%.
Well, we could always stagger our lineups so one of Brunson, IQ, and RJ (if you actually believe in his playmaking) are on the floor.
Not only does the roster not make a lot of sense, Thibs’s hockey line style of substitution exacerbates the imbalances. He’s perhaps started to waver, ever so slightly, so there’s perhaps some reason for hope — but more likely, he’s wavering on whether the five man units themselves make sense more so than trying to cross-pollinate them intra-game.
The only thing I can’t stand is dumbass stuff like accusing someone of not being a fan and accusing someone of having an “agenda”.
See now don’t you feel better already
It’s our own version of an anarcho-syndicalist commune but on the internet.
I just hope we can have a really good team to talk about at some point. I didn’t have any grey hair when this started.
Alan – Loved your substack post
Owen, did you just call all of us anarchistic communists?!
Put the pipe away, bro!
he’s wavering on whether the five man units themselves make sense more so than trying to cross-pollinate them intra-game.
E, – you’re 100% right but it goes further. Thibs has been treating them as if he was managing two separate teams and, more importantly, assigning equal weight on their importance in affecting winning.
Starters play twice the minutes the bench plays and by definition effect the game twice as much. Its why top teams always starts the best players in every position; with only exception if you have someone with instant offense in a 6th man role where this player ends up playing 32 minutes anyway.
This notion that validates Thibs in his ideological philosophy of attempting to maximize efficiency and chemistry of the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th best player on the team as materially important in winning basketball games is 100% irrational.
Since 1992 here! 😉 Don’t remember Prodigy, i assume it was an american thing, right? I was on BBS communities, mostly about movies as i had the dream to become a movie director at that time. Oh, the dreams when we were young, such a great time. And also on IRC, later popularized by mIRC on Windows, around 1995/96 i think.
Lots of rain here, so I’m choosing to wallow in my own crapulence today rather than take heartbroken Jowles’ advice.
Maybe Presti will just gift us Shai so we can hurry up and live out Rose’s grand plan? A Brunson/Shai/RJ/Randle/Mitch lineup is far from ideal and not very “modern” but at least it would be semi-competitive.
Plus, I want to see OKC break some kind of world record for draft picks.
cybersoze, Prodigy probably was USA only. IIRC, it was the first online service with a graphical front end, online games, etc. The earlier ones here were like Compuserve and GEnie, as I recall, but they were purely text based BBS. Prodigy was pretty amazing for its time, starting out with a flat monthly fee, but started raising rates and charging for things like emails over a certain number (30 per month free, then a charge for each, as I recall).
So, Prodigy lost lots of members starting around 1993 or so (I think I left then or in ’94) and faded into obscurity. Many like me eventually flocked to America Online, which was huge in the mid to late 90’s before ISPs and browsers gradually took over.
Yeah, i know. I have my cybersoze.at.aol.com since that time, because of the AOL Messenger, i think. And still use it to this day.
Grimes does not have plantar fasciitis according to the Post but still has chronic “inflammation”. What does he have, gout?
Here there were “flame wars” before the internet. I usually bought, or should i say borrowed 😉 , a music newspaper around 1986 or 87, i don’t know for sure now. And they had 2 pages with some columns of reader’s messages. Usually for stuff associated with music, like trading records, instruments and stuff like that. And at a certain point they were probably receiving so much messages from fans of different genres “insulting” each other that they decided to create a column just for that. Can you imagine the dedication? It was a weekly newspaper, so it was a long wait to see your message published and to be on top of your personal war against whatever you were against. 😀 Needless to say, i never sent a single message to that column. 😉
Random on-line confession: I had gout. It’s incredibly painful, but it ain’t what Grimes has. I’ve always been and still am in great shape, but I took that as meaning I could eat whatever I wanted and drink as much as I wanted. Which I did, which was a lot. The gout was like someone was pushing and twisting a hot poker into my big toe, constantly.
Cleaned up my act (somewhat) and it’s been fine ever since. I wouldn’t wish that on Kyrie, though.
Gout doesn’t last that long and their are prescription medications one can take that are very effective at preventing it.
@ Raven, I wasn’t speaking of gout in mockery at all (if it came off that way). My brother in law had it once and was likewise relatively fit. He just ate a ton of beef and other stuff that can set it off. It’s prolly not gout for Grimes, but it seems odd that the med staff can’t fix it nor do they seem worried it is something more serious.
A heterodox opinion I hold in the Team Realist camp is that I think the front office actually knows our situation sucks.
Reading some tea leaves (the fact that the plan seemed to be to tank in 2020-2021, Randle being shopped this past summer, the willingness to trade a lot for Mitchell, etc.) leads me to the conclusion that they, whoever “they” may be at a given moment, know what a realistic path to contention looks like and thus know that this ain’t it.
Also, a basic look at the backgrounds of guys like Rose, Aller, and Rosas leads me to the same conclusion. Whatever their flaws, these guys have been around the NBA for long enough to be familiar with the “treadmill of mediocrity” concept. While I’m sure they all have their blindspots, I don’t think any of them are Phil Jackson-level “I will defy everything people know about team building in the NBA” irrational/dumb.
I think they planned on trying to build a team in at least a relatively normal way, with some allowances for Thibodeau favors, but got derailed by the Black Swan event that was the the empty gyms season.
The good news about this, if it’s true, is that they know we have to change course. So something worth thinking about is how we can realistically bust out of the “37-42 wins with no clear way to get much better or worse” morass, because I think there’s a decent chance the front office does actually try to do so at some point.
KBA, no worries at all — I knew you were being amusing, and in fact it was funny, I just realized I had a personal (and unusual, except it now seems more people get gout than I realized) aside related to your joke.
cyber, “flame wars,” depending upon how one defines them, have been around as long as the printed word, probably.
In the 1590’s, Shakespeare and a couple of other young playwrights were targeted for insult by one Robert Greene in a pamphlet printed in London. The printer later printed an apology.
Other famous writers like John Dryden and Edgar Allan Poe, if memory of my college days holds, were involved in printed pissing matches with other literary critics and such. Voltaire called one of his critics a “fat pig” in Candide, IIRC.
Sorry to hear about Grimes’s lingering foot problems. I really hope it goes away soon.
Nice to know Raven and I have 2 things in common: Knicks and red wine. Cyber in Porto, let’s make it 3 of us.
Noble, I think you’re very likely to be right. I also think any urge to make big changes is tempered by basic conservatism, an urge to keep their jobs, and the fact that the product they put out is beloved and fills the seats and makes great gobs of money in its current iteration, so the ‘need’ to rock the boat is actually low from a business sense. Sure they could make more with a championship contender, but it’s not like mediocrity is making them go broke.
Yeah, TheClashFan, it’s probably as old as human beings, this desire to make war with one another. 😛
Knicks and Wine fraternity? Let’s gooo! 😉
I don’t think you can hand wave Thibs being hired like that. I said back at the time that their decision between Thibs and Atkinson would say a whole lot about their approach, and they went with the win-now guy, just like Donnie Walsh did with D’Antoni.
@Raven. Good to hear.
IQ is troubling me, and I whined about him needing some time off the ball to get better looks on threes, presumably more makes off assists. But is that true?
IQ is shooting
35.8% from three – career
25.6% with 63.6% assisted in 2022-23
34.6% with 52.6% assisted in 2021-22
38.9% with 61% assisted in 2020-21 (reg season only)
Am I right in assuming the Ast’d number notes what percentage of IQ’s *made* threes are assisted. But is there any number that shows what percentage of his attempts overall are off passes v. how often he must create his own shot?
Clearly this year IQ is not shooting well (yet) but I wonder how much he’s been left to his own devices as compared to that first “special” year when he gave us so much hope. Is it an eye thing, or do the numbers show him on his own more?
Owen, don’t you get it – we are losers by association…rooting for a fucking pitiful franchise doomed to eternally suck, with moments of mediocre thrown at us occasionally…to – keep hope alive…
right now I’m not sure who I’m disappointed with most…the knicks for losing a lot…or me for witnessing some of it…
I may soon have to switch back to my tried and true keeping my feelings clean method of watching games the team win on recording…
hi kba…are you familiar with the story of bernard lowe?
Tomorrow is the big day. Me & Geo are meeting for tacos and tequila at Sonoratown (the one on 8th St; there are two). Then we’re going to see a band Geo loves, the Post Modern Jukebox.
JK47, Donnie Walsh, CDiggy, anyone else who lives in LA, we’d love to meet ya.
Brian, agreed, but again the Thibs win-now choice is also likely to be explained by conservatism, job safety, and the need (or lack thereof) for making wholesale changes to the product.
We think of it as a need (wholesale changes). But that’s because we’re fans, or should I say we’re consumers. Our needs are different than theirs.
I’ve always thought the fastest way to a championship is to get everyone to stop going to the games. Voting with your pocketbook is more effective than most when dealing with huge corporations.
Also, if everyone stopped going to the games, Randle would play better.
“hi kba…are you familiar with the story of bernard lowe?”
haha. a little.
I wish I shared your cautious optimism, Noble.
That Leon was reportedly trying to trade up for Jaden Ivey, rather than putting all his eggs in the basket of a veteran acquisition, is perhaps promising. (It would depend on your opinion of Jaden Ivey, of course.) But the fact that everyone in the media seems convinced that the Knicks aren’t going to tank — and the fact that every move Leon has made since he arrived (including hiring Thibs) has been to assemble a high-floor team — would confirm that. So even if he wants off the mediocrity treadmill, he is only leaving one route open to do that, and it’s the room with much less margin for error.
I don’t think that’s a heterodox opinion.
hello…my name is geo…I too suffer from gout…
I like shrimp, but, not a huge consumer of it…I got beer in the fridge, doesn’t get drunk too often…
my sin is red meat…it’s bad enough it takes days to digest…
when I go off the rails my toe pop pop pops…
it’s been popping pretty consistently the last couple of weeks…
I’m craving some meatloaf right now…
a hard head makes for a soft ass
Brian, that’s a very fair rejoinder but at the same time I think that Atkinson was even being considered lends some credence to my theory. It’s very hard to imagine, though I guess not impossible, that they decided on a overarching strategy based on which coach they hired. I think Rose basically settled on his longtime friend more than anything else. Thibs obviously preferred a win now strategy, but he was in no position to hold out for a team carrying one out because, well, no one else was hiring the guy either then or later.
Even post Thibs hiring, they went into 2020-2021 with the worst Vegas O/U in the NBA, and small moves like signing Burks and Noel aside that didn’t really seem to bother them.
The damn empty gyms ruined everything.
Gout is genetic I think. My friend has it.
So is being a Knicks fan. No other explanation for it.
The Pistons have a 3P% of 32.7, so for tonight we’re safe.
I chose to be a Knicks fan. 😛
Chosen here, too. My father had no interest in the sport. Neither did I until junior high when I got tall (for junior high, I leveled out after that). puberty also inexplicably gave me coordination, something I’d previously lacked almost entirely. So I started to play, and to root for the local team.
Why I stuck with it is harder to explain.
The good news about this, if it’s true, is that they know we have to change course.
if someone with a scalpel agrees you need surgery, it’s only good news if they are also some sort of medical professional. otherwise you might end up with a maniacal space capitalist shitposter making a beeline for your corpus callosum for $8 a month.
“ if someone with a scalpel agrees you need surgery, it’s only good news if they are also some sort of medical professional. otherwise you might end up with a maniacal space capitalist shitposter making a beeline for your corpus callosum for $8 a month.”
Knicks fans are probably materially less taken aback by the Elon Musk era of Twitter. Seen the whole “hubristic moron in way over his head” thing too many times before.
i meant that as seriously as gout. i don’t think you should take comfort in management sharing your distaste for the status quo. the most likely make up date for the mitchell rain out could well be surge pricing for a beal adjacent store label star. you wake up on a feb or july morn and hear only that the knicks did something massive, you trembling with greed or fear as you power up your razr?
I mean wow, the Phil Jackson era was basically the exact same story. Right down to there being a loud group of dead enders who insisted the simpletons just couldn’t understand the Larger Plan.
Why would you say that???
I agree pt, the thought doesn’t really make me much more optimistic about the situation. It was more of a commentary on on the fact that naturally the best season we’ve had in almost a decade turned out to be a curse in disguise that *may have* derailed a competent plan.
I mean, I’d rather a front office that knows this is not good than one in total denial, the likes of which we’ve experienced. But it doesn’t do much with how few options are available to do something both smart and drastic.
The pros in the FO (*) I’m sure grasp the purgatorial nature of the whole thing but getting from that to actually escaping requires (1) them to pitch Dolan on rebuilding and probably losing playoff revenue for his publicly-traded corporation for three years minimum; and (2) Dolan to sign off on it.
(*) At least Aller, Rosas, Perry, and Perrin. Probably Rose, too.
I would normally say Beal is obvious But even the Knicks FO has to realize that Brunson, Randle, Barrett, Beal wouldn’t work on a number of levels.
Tell me I am right. Please.
The crazy thing about Rose is that, again, he was the one who was wooed! Probably because of Bob Myers’ success in Golden State. So you would think that, just like with Phil, who was also wooed, that if anyone could do their own plan, it would be Rose and Phil, and yet they both had the same basic plan, just Rose’s plan is slightly less dumb than Phil’s. I just can’t imagine walking away from a cushy job to a new field at Rose’s age and then saying, “Let’s just play it safe. I don’t want to get fired right away.” Then why did you take the job, dude?!?!
Sorry but the Phil jackson era was FAR worse than what Leon has done. Both record wise and with what he left us after he left. He literally drafted Frank and wasted a high lottery pick a week before he was fired. His vets acquisitions were Noah, Sam dalembert, Calderon, etc. all far worse than the vets Leon had gotten. I mean did Phil ever sign a free agent in his youthful prime as good as Brunson? As good as Alex Burks? He left us saddled with Noah’s contract and gave Melo a freaking mega max no trade clause. And he never even got close to the playoffs. The best he ever did was about half a season we were 500 with Melo, rolo and rookie KP.
You could broadly call them both hybrid approaches but that would be super disingenuous. Leon may be going for wins and competency but he has also built up a bevy of young players and picks in the process. if Leon was fired today and our next GM had the ability to do whatever they wanted there would be a lot of people who would want the job bc you could potentially do a lot with where we’re at right now
If Leon didn’t pull the trigger on Mitchell he’s definitely not pulling the trigger on beal. Let’s all calm down.
But Beal would cost much less than Mitchell, and Rose was willing to give up a lot for Mitchell, just not as much as Cleveland. So I don’t think him not getting Mitchell means much of anything (it’s also notable that he later leaked/whined that he wasn’t given a chance to beat Cleveland’s offer).