[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 9, 2022 11:55:00 PM
NBA 2022: Scores, results, video, latest, Ben Simmons, Brooklyn Nets v New York Knicks, Kevin Durant, LA Clippers v LA Lakers, Josh Giddey Fox Sports
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 9, 2022 11:15:53 PM
‘Best we’ve seen’: Simmons lights up news.com.au
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 9, 2022 10:56:15 PM
Nets make Jacque Vaughn coach, decide against Udoka pursuit The Associated Press
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 9, 2022 10:11:00 PM
Durant, Nets pound Knicks 112-85 after promoting Vaughn Spectrum News NY1
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 9, 2022 10:00:42 PM
Brooklyn’s Not-So-Finest: Knicks Can’t Randle Surging Nets Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 9, 2022 8:46:26 PM
The real reason Knicks are hoarding their 8 firs-round draft picks ClutchPoints
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 9, 2022 7:27:48 PM
Knicks’ TV analyst Wally Szczerbiak unloads on Nets’ Ben Simmons New York Daily News
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 9, 2022 3:01:41 PM
SLAM Magazine to release New York Knicks Collector’s Issue with KITH Posting and Toasting
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 9, 2022 3:00:00 PM
Jeff Van Gundy: Jalen Brunson ‘Damn Good’ For Knicks, But … Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 9, 2022 1:02:00 PM
Phoenix Suns at Minnesota Timberwolves odds, picks and predictions USA TODAY Sportsbook Wire
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 9, 2022 12:00:00 PM
Are Knicks New York’s last big sports hope after Nets, Yankees debacles? Daily Knicks
[news.google.com] — Wednesday, November 9, 2022 11:00:17 AM
Kyrie Irving’s Antisemitism Controversy and More Halftime Reports From ‘The Franchise’ Tablet Magazine
119 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2022.11.10)”
I would replace stubborn with smart in that sentence.
As he should be. We have a GM who gives assets away for 50 cents on the dollar to avoid using a roster spot on a player who won’t make an impact in his first season. I’d rather have the guy obsessed with getting full value.
I was worried from the start, games like the one in Minny are insidious for a team like us, because they can install false confidence and make you think that you’re doing the right things, while in reality they’re an astral conjunction where a team in a steady downward spiral (the Wolves) overlaps with a player’s supernova night (Randle).
We did NEVER lead in the game, we cut the lead to 15 in the 3rd then went on a 4:45 drought that allowed a Nets’ 9-0 run and the game was over.
Anyway, to me at 5-6 we’re still chalk on the season win-loss preview, but the road to get here was not smooth (more on that later).
Some questions/observations from the game:
– Randle’s spot-up tendencies can open up some more playtime to Obi. Maybe (and situational) we can really go “Jumbo” with Randle playing as a “3” on offense and a “4” on defense, Obi playing “4” on offense and “3” on defense and a center protecting the rim.
But we really needs Obi to move his feet on opponents’ “3”s to make it work…
– Sims had a decent game, but why start him when we have evidence that Hartenstein’s better suited to help the starters find some spacing in the paint? The Lefty Squad’s offense was crammed and Brunson’s Payton-like night didn’t help.
– Bad shooting night for many, but Cam (0-7), IQ (1-8) and Rose (0-4) stood out. Plus RJ and Obi missed some point blanks layups that scream “soft!” to the skies.
– Grimes’ management is confusing. Situational, garbage-time, starter, available but garbage-time bound. I understand he missed the preseason and needs to get into his groove, but what’s better than a game decided at halftime to give him some real minutes?
– There’s a lot of talent in the league, many player (like our own Obi) just need the chance to prove they belong.
The never ending list of unknown or underrated player that have “their night” against us has become so long that I’m came to the conclusion that our coaching staff isn’t good at preparing games, focusing our game-plans too much on stopping the “established star of the day” and getting burn over and over by (supposed) “scrubs”.
– KD’s a world class whiner, a fickle and unsufferable primadonna, but he’s a fantastic basketball player and I’m sad he choose Brooklyn.
Then I remember that he choose them to play with Kyrie and I’m less sad…
It’s not a coincidence he has the worst plus/minus of the team (at -28). He was the only Knick with something going on offense in the first half but he gave everything back on defense.
5th consecutive game with more TOs than ASTs (his ratio for november is 15/22).
Brunson F +
Not the right game to lay an egg. He had a Randle-esque AST/TO ratio, missed a lot of shots and graver he forced a lot of shots. In a couple of occasions he unusually ignored Obi and RJ, who were alone and with an highway to the rim, choosing instead to go by himself (and missing the shots).
Barrett F +
4 missed FTs away from getting his 20s 🙂
Some good moments sprinkled in a cocktail of mediocrity.
I’d like to watch him play a full game without he and Randle stepping on each other feet.
Awful. Infuriating. 1 assist, zero rebounds and zero steals in the last 47 minutes, is it good?
Starters’ best plus/minus (-7), I can’t say anything bad about the kid. I can say a lot of bad things about whoever plays him 27 minutes.
He has dropped as a leaf in november (23% shooting in the last 5 games). Every shot is short as in “heavy legs short”. At his age, with his injury history, every good game can be the last. I still give him some more games to decide if he’s cooked for good, the man has more resurrections than the Phoenix.
Toppin F +
Energy’s not everything. Missed a couple of layups in a way that would made Charles Smith proud. Not a good thing, nah.
It’s time to put a picture of his lost shot on the milk cartons.
Fournier F +
For a moment he looked finally at ease with his new role, but it was a flash in the pan.
Hartenstein F +
Didn’t shine for sure but he’s gone from playing more than Mitch to playing less than Sims in the blink of an eye. I’m confused and I think he’s more confused than me. Anyway, tied with Fournier (!!) for bench’s best plus/minus (non-garbage division) at -6.
This guy can’t miss a three! But he clunked a FT and missed a chance for a glorious 4-points play.
Is he ready? Is he available? Is he situational? Is he a starter?
Don’t miss the next issue of WTF is Grimes!
Arcidiacono & McBride NA
Europe will love you guys (and Ryan, we have a stilish light-blue uniform waiting for you here in the Boot)
His team was unprepared and apathetic from the jumpball and he was unable to inspire any kind of reaction. Wasn’t avoiding this kind of letdowns one of the main reasons to have him as coach?
Looks like i made a good decision, not wasting sleep watching the 4th quarter. Not even a fake comeback.
Disclaimer: ROA (Rant On Arrival)
It was Game-11 and we’ve already had:
– Santi Aldama season high (18) against Memphis;
– Theo Maledon season high (15) in an OT win against the Hornets without Lamelo and Rozier;
– A 18-0 blackout in the 3rd QRT in Milwaukee, during which we had a timeout after the initial 9-0 run and came out of the timeout to allow another 9-0 run;
– A 15-37 4th in Cleveland that morphed a 9 points lead in a 13 points loss. Included in that game: Dean Wade career high (22) and Kevin Love season high (29);
– A 23 points-lead meltdown against Atlanta, at home, in a game that we lost by 13 and includes Dejounte Murray’s career high (36);
– A narrow win in Philly against the Sixers without Embiid and Harden. We needed a frantic comeback from down 12 in the 4th to win;
– A complete no-show in Brooklyn, in the game Edmond Sumner had his season high (18);
I know the players are the one that… play.
But the fish smells from the head.
We had a lot of roster continuity in the last couple of years (plus a parade of PGs) and still the offense on most night is muddy, our defensive schemes look flimsy, and the ferociusness and focus that are Thibs’ trademark aren’t there most of the time.
Do we really need an Marines Drill Sergeant to help us lose by 27 to the Nets?
The Phillies were 22-29, fired Joe Girardi and went to the World Series.
The Nets fired Steve Nash (it was a classless move, they should have done it in the summer) and are playing better (a streak of 4 games with opponents held under 100 points).
In both cases the players “reacted” to the new voice or, to put it in another way, they were left without excuses and forced to show up or feel ashamed.
Sometimes (sometimes, not always) it works.
Now we get two softies (DET and OKC) before embarking on a 5-game West trip.
I don’t think the FO will do anything, but maybe they’ll better start thinking about it.
Or maybe Thibs and the Playing Boys just need to do a better job.
9 games to the 20 game mark, and the schedule is like this:
– 3 winnable games against OKC (2x) and Detroit;
– 5 games against each of the top5 in the west, with 3 of those on the road;
– 1 game against a below .500 team, but it’s the Warriors and also on the road;
If we go 3-6 for a 8-12 record, will heads roll?
To get anywhere serious the Knicks have to both (1) decide to rebuild; and then (2) rebuild.
Pretty sobering realization. They’re still a million miles away from anything.
Great review Max. It seems that thwarting Brunson causes Knicks to revert to last year’s dysfunctional offense ( ie. Randle whirling and jumping dervish point PF) and results like last night.
Max, great minds think alike! 😉 We need to change something, that’s for sure. Either Thibs can put the team playing better, we’re not even playing great defense this time around, or maybe it’s time for him to go. He was never the best choice for the job, and even Thibs’ supporters surrendered on that. We need a modern coach that is good at developing a young team. Maybe Kenny Atkinson? Or my preferred choice – Becky!
We have many talented musicians and writers here, I think that sentence is a good starting point for a song, probably a sad ballad… 🙂
You old satyr! 😉
Randle, despite lighting the net on fire, went from a -5.2 RAPTOR to a -5.4 RAPTOR.
This is our entire strategy for the season: tread water until hopefully we have a multi-week stretch of hot shooting for us and bad shooting for our opponent. If you think we’ll win 42-45 games (and I still do), you’re just optimistic that this good fortune will occur.
It’s very similar to our strategy with the roster: tread water until a superstar demands to be traded here and his GM will accept our paltry package of young players who aren’t very good and draft picks that are heavily protected.
It’s not a very inspired strategy, it’s not smart at all, and it’s highly improbable. But that is what we’re going with here, and there’s no signs of change.
Even Becky with the good hair can’t save this squad.
I’m not a big Thibs fan, but 1. He has been adjusting more than ever this year (to no avail) and 2. He has one of the worst rosters in the league to work with.
I guess Rose will hold onto his job indefinitely until he makes his “big” move (cashing in all his picks for a “star”) but he hasn’t been great. Yes, we are used to much worse, but we deserve much better…
Maybe…JUST MAYBE we prematurely laughed at the LOLNETS
lol..no..seriously- I’m with RJ on this game. It happens. Every team has nights where they can’t hit a shot. But, I also think the Nets just played with more energy on defense than we’ve seen all season, and all the hero ball took away any chance of our guys finding offensive rhythm. So when you have a bad shooting night, and you make bad decisions- you will have a clunker like this one. Hopefully this is more the result of the team still working out the kinks and trying to find lineups that work amidst the early injuries.
Ideally, what you want with this team as constructed is a starting 5 playing with a more controlled pace that focuses on setting the defensive tone and doesn’t take I’ll advised 3’s. Brunson can make them at a high clip, RJ has shown the ability to shoot at better than league average from deep, Julius can make the occasional 3, and Cam or Grimes can splash from deep. Then, the 2nd unit should play fast and loose- bombs away. Hero ball takes away from that. Particularly hero ball from Randle because his perimeter shot isn’t as friendly as RJ’s. And right now RJ’s not a consistent shooter from anywhere, but I’d rather him shoot long jumpers than Randle. Randle should be able to turn it on in favorable match-up consistently and he doesn’t. He should punish most 4’s in the high post and low post. RJ can get to the rack damn near at will- as can Brunson. Thibs has to find a way to maximize that. Maybe a healthy Grimes will help, but I’m skeptical because when RJ drives, Julius is usually parked where RJ is headed. If Julius took in-rhythm jumpers within the offense more, that wouldn’t be a problem because then he’d be dangerous enough to drift outside more when RJ drives. And that’s why Obi’s the better option at the starting 4 if the team wants RJ as a building block.
I dunno. This team is starting to be more confusing than I initially thought
Randle has a -4.1 D-RAPTOR. Fournier is at -2.1.
I didn’t know you could fire artillery shells all the way over the Atlantic like that.
We played like crap. It was a much bigger night for the Nets – clearly a lot of guys had a statement to make while Kyrie is out. But we just didn’t have it.
I said it a few times and it was said above but it can’t be said enough. Durant is really a miraculously good basketball player.
We could be the Lakers. 2-9 with no pick and Lebron down with a groin injury. Any consolation?
Randle’s an awful defender.
Randle & Cam are now both at 35.5% on the season. Randle is taking 1.2 more 3s than Cam. It’s weird after the start, but the last 2 games and maybe Randle & Cam should be flipped (but probably not based on ft%).
I’m going to sour on Cam real quick if he’s not lighting it up from deep while dropping those secondary numbers.
It serves no purpose to stick Cam Reddish in the corner while the three hogging chuckers hog and chuck.
I have this terrible feeling that Obi is going to be the centerpiece of our next trade because there are no other options really. He’s our one desirable young guy.
Plus, I think the FO really likes the Brunson/Randle combo and feels they just need a true #1. Idk, maybe I’m wrong. I hope I am.
It is pretty demoralizing that for all we talk about Hartenstein’s floater and Randle’s Seconds Per Touch and RJ’s FG% at the rim and whatnot, it really all comes back to the same thing. The results are bad because the strategy is bad.
I know we’re not supposed to talk about that and I will try to avoid beating the dead horse, but sometimes it’s just unavoidable. We don’t have the talent to compete with most teams in the NBA and that was an entirely predictable result of our plan/lack thereof. Our best player kind of fell ass backwards onto our roster because his dad is friend’s with our POBO.
I’m also not a Thibs fan, never should’ve been hired, etc. but people who think even the best coach would make a material difference are kidding themselves. I don’t even have super strong opinions on what to do going forward besides trying, and probably failing, to trade Julius Randle because we’re not in a position to make particularly interesting moves.
Try to trade Randle/Fournier/Rose, I guess.
Bring in a coach with a modern offense and modern defense, play another 30 games or so to see how the players function in the modern offense and defense and then go from there.
To be sure, it still almost certainly means ripping it down to studs, but I at least want that “modern” data point before I decide for sure.
The Knicks need to start over. Tough message to be sure, but that’s what they need to do. And it’s going to be even rougher because their dead weight doesn’t have much value. It’s probably going to be a net cost in draft picks to clear out the dead weight. I don’t think a single player on the roster (*) would bring an unprotected one from anything but an established contender or near contender. Jalen Brunson is the closest.
This is where the Knicks are. With this roster and this FO philosophy, the game summaries and the to-and-fros and the granular modern statistics are the 21st century basketball equivalent of the old-school medieval theological debates about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
(*) We have to remember the time-tested adage that in the association you don’t trade players, you trade contracts.
I am definitely at the despair stage now. Hell, even Macri has stopped trying to look at everything as glass half-full. There is a way out of this, but it involves doing the thing that Leon does not want to do, which is to let the team be bad, at least for this season. There are enough solid supporting pieces that this wouldn’t have to be a multi-year tank, but I just don’t see any other easy path towards bringing in high-end talent.
Man ,I really hope this FO is smart enough to keep Obi and figure out a way to dump Randle and Fournier if the team is still struggling after 20 to 30 games.
If we hit 20 to 30 games and we’re 4 or 5 games under 500, Rose needs to have a real come to Jesus moment and pivot towards a full tank/rebuild. The thing is, we don’t even have to do it for multiple seasons necessarily. We got a lot of young players and they are not totally useless. We just messed up signing Fournier and resigning Randle. I actually have no problems with the way Randle has played so far this season and I’m more hopeful than I was that we might be able to trade him without giving up assets to do so. So I do think it’s possible that the team might struggle but Randle might have upped his value and maybe Fournier can do that too coming off the bench and we can move them. Would be more than fine attaching some second rounders to do that.
then get rid of Thibs, play out the string with all of the youngsters (maybe try and move D Rose too if we can). And try to get that high lottery pick. Maybe we get lucky.
We would then also have some cap space.
It was a bad loss. Maybe that’s all it was. Durant was schooling us and we were shooting poorly and The Nets are way better than their record. It does happen and maybe it’s not a sign of things to come.
But then again…maybe it is.
To put things in unfortunate perspective, the Knicks don’t even have an asset like a Nik Vucevic, who brought back a quality young recent lottery pick and two unprotected 1s when the Magic finally decided to throw in the towel on their years-long neo-Knicksian treading water project.
“I am definitely at the despair stage now. Hell, even Macri has stopped trying to look at everything as glass half-full.”
He and Clyde are the greatest, but I’ve become embarrassed for Mike Breen, who’s descended to celebrating seemingly every time Julius Randle doesn’t throw the ball in the stands or flip off his home fans. I turned the sound off last night when, in the first half with the Knicks already down like 15, he noted that “Julius Randle has smiled on the court more this year than he did all of last year.”
We have to hope that our young players improve a lot. That’s a slow process, but it’s what we’ve got. Nobody thinks of that as a strategy because they don’t think you ever get great players that way. But it does happen sometime. Doing it means you have to draft well and develop well and be patient. We can’t tear our hair out because Quickley went backwards in shooting; he got better on defense. We traded for Reddish and the complaint was he didn’t get minutes. But now he getting minutes. It just didn’t happen immediately. Maybe he actually improved. As I said, we just have to hope the trend continues.
I’m basically just hoping this is a chemistry issue a la the first Heatles year… but, you know, for a 6th seed ceiling instead of destined champions.
20 games. RJ & IQ shooting regression.
Why don’t we just cut and paste this thread every time the Knicks lose?
Great re-cap, Max. This was a tough one, but we should all remember we are/were supposed to lose to Brooklyn. KD alone is a better team than we are. We prolly got false hope because of all the Kyrie chaos, but Brooklyn *should* go deep in the playoffs. We should not. The Hawks, Boston, Bucks all *should* go deep. We should not.
That said, I don’t know what Thibs is doing. The usual complaint is that he’s too rigid, now I think he’s just tossing spaghetti at the wall. In my view the whole point of LOSING IN A BLOWOUT is to use the actual NBA minutes to try lineups or matchups that might be useful when we do actually have a chance to win.
Example: If (the idea) of Grimes is as some kind of defensive stopper, then why not put him in to *stop* someone. If he’s in too much pain, then why put him in for the last five minutes? I guess Thibs feels like Grimes needs some pre-season-ish minutes, but (if healthy) why not put him on KD or at least Curry. So what if they roast our young guy. Get some chances against some of the league’s best players. Cam could have done the same. Deuce could have done the same.
The lineups were changing a lot, but it was hard to see a purpose.
On another note, I don’t see a lot of good screens being set for our shooters, at least in comparison to other teams. Our shooters (Fournier, IQ, Brunson) always end up having to put the ball on the floor whenever they receive the pass. Only RJ and Obi seem to get wide open looks, and Randle, of course, b/c he always, well, looks. Do we just suck at that, or am I tripping (or both)?
Finally, @ Max “A Million Miles Away” (in title anyway) is already a magnificent song by the Plimsouls used in the also magnificent 1980s movie VALLEY GIRL starring one Nicolas Cage and directed by the underrated auteur Martha Coolidge. Should you care to enjoy, find the song here 😉
And young Nic Cage deeply in love here:
re: Quickley forgetting how to shoot
He’s 11/43 from 3 this season, shooting a putrid .256% If he was 15 for 43 he’d be shooting 35%. Obviously he didn’t make those 4 shots, but it’s a tiny sample size, we really can’t say anything about it.
I’d love to see the scouting report on Randle.
Last night, after his initial three point barrage, there was a lot of him doing his patented “drive into the paint, do a silly spin move, then jump in the air and figure out what to do.”
Just so uninspired on offense.
Not having Mitch out there really reduces the entertainment factor for me as well.
And agreed on Quickley. I have zero concerns about him.
Thanks for the song!
I was aware of Toto’s and Offspring’s songs with the same title, but not that one…
To avoid confusion we need to have “from anything” in the title 🙂
So there was a time when Nic Cage was a worst actor than he’s now? Interesting… 😉
IQ is our best player. Even without the shooting.
I really did not understand the minute distribution last night at all. Hart playing less than Sims is straight up insane. Sims wasn’t even playing well. I also don’t understand why we aren’t trying to use Hart’s passing abilities, especially during a game when the ball movement is awful.
Reddish? Maybe the FO wants Thibs to see what he can do, but he’s playing like Cam Reddish. He needs to be out of the rotation, because he sucks. The offense was guys going iso but it’s hard to have an offense featuring two guys (Sims and Cam) who don’t move the ball and don’t score.
“So there was a time when Nic Cage was a worst actor than he’s now? Interesting… 😉”
Hahaha. That’s a thousand post thread to put all our Cam drivel to shame … and, for the record, I’m pro-Cage 😉
My Cage teasings are always affectionate, I can’t forget he’s a “paisà” and I’m partial to his uncle… 🙂
RJ and Cam are terrible players, and have been for more than three years. They might look the part for one game and then play 4 like crap. We really need those minutes to go for Grimes and Quickley.
One thing that I liked about a Donovan Mitchell trade was to get rid of RJ while he had any value. I really do not know in which role he can provide any value. Maybe corner three specialist if that shot ever comes back? He does not have the physical tools, the skills, nor the BBIQ to be a productive basketball player.
here’s a good million miles away song…this whole soundtrack on this movie is one of my favorites…jim boyd is solid
“IQ is our best player. Even without the shooting.”
I’m curious about this. When IQ first wowed us/me, didn’t he have many more minutes playing off the ball? Wasn’t his weird set shot just automatic on some nights? I have a vague memory of this, which makes me want to see him (not Grimes) play more beside Brunson. In truth, if he and Brunson could switch off ball-handling duty, it might help Brunson get some open threes as well. Of course, IQ is not Luka, but it seems (to me) there is some logic in playing these two together. Then we can let DRose and Grimes or Fournier do whatever they want with the bench mob.
It is unbelievable how anemic Cam’s statline is. There are strands of bucatini that could put up better numbers.
More than halfway to twenty games, I will have thoughts….
Ah. Pepper! From SMOKE SIGNALS. Nice. Sherman Alexie!
I don’t get the handwringing. A team that had a 38.5 win over/under is 5-6. And people want to fire the coach??
What you’re seeing is the inevitable sum of all the uninspired decisions our middling GM has made since he got here. This isn’t the plan going wrong. This is the plan.
We have achieved everlasting mediocrity. Or, as some call it, “competitive basketball.” It fucking sucks, but the die was cast.
I really don’t get how folks are pinning this loss on Randle. I watched the highlight reel from the game and while he looked bad on a couple of possessions, for most of the featured Nets baskets, he was either not involved or was trying hard to guard one of the best offensive bigs in league history who did what he does to everyone else. Meanwhile he had 24 points on 15 shots, was 4-8 from 3, and even when he passed the ball, everyone around him clanked shot after shot.
I have never liked the aesthetics of Randle’s game and plays like when he got stripped from behind by Simmons dribbling upcourt drive me nuts. But Randle was a very small part of the reason we got blown out last night, -29 or no -29. The main culprits by far were Cam, Brunson, Obi and IQ (Rose’s 11 minutes were also horrific.) They fucking sucked on both ends WAAAAAY worse than Randle. RJ was at least doing some positive things out there, but he wasn’t good either.
I haven’t noticed a soul really “pinning” this loss on Randle, but more so just kind of reiterating the fact that he sucks.
I don’t think a new coach is saving this situation but Thibs seat should be getting a little warm if you ask me. The #1 Thibs selling point is supposed to be that he prevents the team from having games like last night where they come out totally flat and just don’t compete. We can talk about the talent level on our roster (and it’s nothing special) but the Nets started Edmond Sumner (literally never heard of him before – sounds like a civil war general) and are playing David Duke Jr. and Cam Thomas rotation minutes. Durant is amazing but we’re not losing by 35 points because the opposition is such a juggernaut. The #2 selling point for Thibs is supposed to be the defense and that’s not looking so hot either.
That’s funny, I was picturing Edmond Sumner more as a minor noble in Britain, Baronet of Warwickshire perhaps.
Perhaps I am perverse, I never wanted Thibs to come here, but I’d also rather not deal with all the drama and overblown narrative around firing him.
I have never liked Thibs much and I understand the argument that he’s supposed to bring stability and hard work and those things are absent right now from the team, but I’m with tnfh here in saying that the roster is just not talented enough.
If we want to bring a new coach, I’m fine with it if it means a change in direction. Just bringing another guy to play the same players and expect different results won’t do anything for me. Either commit to this team and keep Thibs and hope they eventually gel together and the young guys improve and etc etc, or bring a new coach and pivot towards trading Randle and rebuilding. No more half assed changes just for the sake of it.
All the season predictions weren’t based on Thibs’ coaching. They were based on our personnel. We are getting what was expected. So Thibs isn’t an impact coach so far, but he’s not dragging the team down either. We’re getting lots of different lineups because we have a lot of fungible players. You can’t pick the better one, you just pick your poison.
It’s one thing to know that the team is aspiring to mediocrity this season. It’s another thing to see it. And especially to see most of our young guys playing poorly while we are mediocre. It’s just not fun. Maybe if Grimes ever gets healthy, maybe if IQ remembers how to shoot, maybe if Obi gets more time, I’ll feel differently. But right now, this all is just depressing. It’s hard to even wish on anything. Purgatory.
“but more so just kind of reiterating the fact that he sucks.”
If everyone else on the team “sucked” as badly as he did last night, we ould have been in the game. Giving him a D- is absurd. He had a TS% of .633 and an eFG% of .600 on 31% usage. His BPM for the game was 7.9. He had virtually the same kind of game he did vs. MIN.
If your point (or anyone else’s) is that he sucks overall, fine. But if we are all about advanced stats here, we should fairly factor that into our game-by-game analysis chatter as well.
I generally love our starting PG, but one of the matchups we’re supposed to win is Jalen Brunson vs Lord Edmund Sumner. He has to do a lot better.
One subplot that I noticed last night was who was guarding Durant (not that it matters to him). Early on, Cam was on him, and clearly trying hard to stop him.
At some point, the Knicks switched to Randle on him. In his short 2nd half run, it looked to me like Cam just stopped trying other than 2 or 3 crazy drives to the hoop on the rare occasions that he got the ball.
Maybe Cam was (extra) unhappy that they switched him off Durant? Bruised ego?
It’s not the record, it’s the blowouts that are depressing.
I do generally think Randle was the best player on the Knicks and had a very good game. But he does so many other things badly right now that I can’t say for sure if he’s actually playing well.
I love it when I see well-integrated rational folks try to make sense and reverse engineer the thought process and the decision making of an irational mind.
In the post game interview last night Thibs said that “likes” Sims and that’s why he plays him. Thibs, Doc and other old school type coaches who make line up rotation decisions based on gut feelings, insticts, and historical persepective of who the young kid reminds them off put their teams in an unecessary disadvantage against coaches like Bud, Nurse, Jenkins, Kerr, Spo etc…
Thibs is a good coach in other aspects of team building with loyalty and character. Players respond to those traits but he can’t outcoach anyone.
It seems like the Cam experiment is starting to lose that new car smell. I can only do the “he isn’t putting up any stats but man those intangibles!” thing for so long.
I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see Fournier back in the starting lineup soon if Grimes continues to nurse that sore foot along. Evian does seem to be trying harder on D, and his turnovers seem like the “head up his ass because he is upset at being marginalized” kind. I would roll the dice with Evan and Hart as starters and let Sims roll with the bench mob, subbing in Grimes for Cam when he’s available.
Chalk would have us at 3-8 right now. The Nets are simply a better team than us, mostly due to having one of the top 10-15 players of all time in their starting lineup, and they are a bit desperate right now given all the drama with Kyrie, Nash, and Simmons (and Wally, kindly STFU!). It was disturbing that it was such a blowout, as was the ATL debacle, but going 2-5 and beating PHI and MIN on the road while getting nothing from IQ or Fournier or Grimes or Mitch make this bitch of a stretch relatively palatable for me. Seeing RJ and Randle start to knock down 3’s helps as well.
My biggest disappointments thus far are Fournier, Hart and IQ….and Grimes’ forever sore foot. Mitch and Grimes will hopefully be back soon and IQ will wake the fuck up. Then we can go back to being a more consistently watchable version of a mediocre team, especially if Randle keeps hitting 3’s when fans are in the building.
I mentioned this in the game thread last night, but there was a point in the first half where Claxton got in foul trouble and Vaughn put in Simmons at the 5. The obvious move for Thibs at the point would have been to put Obi in for Sims (yes I know Obi had just come out, but I think he can handle the minutes)
Thibs has shown some willingness to play Obi and Randle together, that was the perfect time to do it.
DET is not the same team we played earlier on, so tomorrow night’s game should be a better measuring stick of where we are right now.
“My biggest disappointments thus far are Fournier, Hart and IQ….and Grimes’ forever sore foot.”
Agree with most of your takes, but not this one. Fournier’s been a disappointment, although I think he’s just struggling with the demotion so no real surprise there. IQ has ups and downs, and while I dislike his downs, that’s what he does and it won’t last. Grimes is injured and that also just happens. And Hart’s being mis-used, or at least not being used properly. He should be at the elbow and every time he touches the ball the other four guys should start cutting like salmon shooting upstream.
My biggest disappointments are Julius going back to doing stupid things (whether or not he’s playing well statistically), RJ also doing stupid things, and lately Brunson catching RJ disease (starting late in the Minnie game) and hunting his own shot with no effort to look for his teammates; i.e., also doing stupid things.
And Cam, although I never had high hopes, he started to make me think he’d started to turn a corner, but he cannot not shoot the ball when he touches it.
I watch the Knicks to be entertained. On one level I don’t care all that much about purgatory, or even losing, if the product is fun. It’s really not fun to watch these guys play selfishly and stupidly.
Z, you’re 100% right. Same as Sims, Cam is a DNP guy too.
But we have to forget this notion that there are two teams out there…bench and starters. Its been driving me crazy the extent of things Thibs and fans seems to be trying to do to somehow maximize each squad like they weight the same in determening actual outcomes.
Why is IQ somehow not worthy of starting?
Kid is one of the top 4 best players on the team at 23 yrs old. He’s a better defender than Cam and streaky sharp shooter that can create and make others better. IQ is 6’4” with a 6’8” wingspan. Let him play for 36 minutes at shooting guard position for 10 games and play Fournier for 12 till Grimes is ready to play.
This. Same point I made above about IQ maybe getting his 3 pt shot on track playing off ball for a bit.
The Nets have had a lot of injuries and dysfunction. I told you not to worry about their start. They are getting healthier now and the players’ mutiny against Nash was effective in getting them a coach they are willing to play hard for. (imo Nash deserves another shot on a team with fewer players in need of mental health services). They are just a much better team than us. When healthy they are a serious contender. No big deal.
Who cares about the Nets? What we want is to see a team that makes sense, and is fun to watch… well, ours is neither.
Let’s not get carried away by that shellacking last night, the Nets are not a serious contender. Any team with KD on it is gonna make the playoffs, but they’re not beating Milwaukee or Boston in a 7 game series.
Without Grimes ready, and as Cam is slowly wasting his chance, i think trying Quick with Brunson is the next step. Evan is the past, let’s move on from him.
For me the biggest problem defensively is the total lack of ball pressure. It’s the lack of point of attack defense that has everyone scrambling, leading to wide open threes and offensive rebounds. Opposing guards can walk the ball up, have an unobstructed view of the entire floor and go wherever they please. Brunson, Rose and Fournier have been awful in that regard. Cam and RJ are decent defenders but they don’t get into guy’s bodies- they tend to play off a bit. Deuce, Grimes and to lesser extent IQ are the only guys we have that will try to pressure the ball.
Randle has been really bad- late initial rotations, infuriatingly soft doubles (though it’s tough to trap guys when they have a step on the initial defender), and too slow to recover back out to shooters. But you could say that (albeit to a lesser extent) about everyone not named Mitch in the starting lineup. That said,if the initial defense was adequate, Randle wouldn’t be nearly as much of an issue. If this team is going to be anything other than thoroughly mediocre either Grimes or IQ is going to have to start and play well.
+1 to this.
When we face a quality opponent, it seems like that opponent can flip the switch pretty easily and get buckets at will. Most NBA teams these days have a good penetrating guard and a handful of good perimeter shooters. We can’t slow down the penetrating guard, so we rely on a lot of help defense, which can be beaten by good ball movement.
I just don’t see the personnel of a good defensive team here, no matter what Thibs does to coach them up. We have some guys who try hard despite their physical limitations, but at the same time we just have too many guys with physical limitations to begin with. The way this team is assembled doesn’t really make a ton of sense.
My impression from watching this year was Quickley is being used more than ever as the primary ball handler, but the stats don’t back that up. Could be some nuance getting lost there but in any event I would support anything, including playing him off the ball more, to try to get him going because that situation is getting bleak.
He’s supposed to be an essential part of our “young core” and he is, well, pretty much sucking at everything. We all know he’s not hitting the ocean from the beach, but his free throw rate has cratered too and he’s turning the ball over more than ever. I do concur with the idea that his defense has been more than solid, if perhaps still overstated by some, but he’s not Tony Allen so eventually he’ll have to get the ball to go through the basket a few times.
I also don’t think him passing up reasonably good threes in favor of floater prayers is anything new. He’s been frustrating me by doing that his whole career, it was just a lot easier to tolerate when he wasn’t sucking in general.
“What we want is to see a team that makes sense, and is fun to watch… well, ours is neither.”
They weren’t last night, and they weren’t in the 2nd half against ATL. But that same ATL team listlessly lost by 30 the game before playing us, and the Nets have been a shitshow.
I honestly don’t know what you mean by a team that “makes sense” or “is fun to watch.” We have won 5 games, and 4 or our 6 losses were very competitive showings vs. teams that were much better on paper than us. I was at the Celts game, and my friend and I left feeling that we played as well as could have been expected and that it was a reasonably fun game to watch, given the lopsided expectations.
“My biggest disappointments are Julius going back to doing stupid things (whether or not he’s playing well statistically)”
I don’t know what to say in response to this, other than Julius is getting paid $23.7 million this year and “realistic” expectations should be in line with that number. If he didn’t do stupid things, and scored and rebounded like he has thus far this year, especially in the last 3 games, he’d be worth a lot more.
The problem continues to be that he is too often forced to be this team’s #1 option and he isn’t suited to that role. No one else showed up last night, and he still only took one more shot than RJ and Brunson.
Some interesting matchup data: Brunson had a game BPM of -7.4 while Sumner Redstone’s was 20.3. Durant was also 20.3, while Scam Fetish churned out a -21.5 in 17 minutes.
Also, I have no special insight as to what the hell is going on with Grimes but I am getting major “a normal team would not be handling it this way” vibes.
If he’s still recovering he should be inactive, and if he’s fully healthy he should be playing more. I get the terrible feeling we’re rushing him back a bit because we don’t like the look of our “untouchable” player sitting while Donovan Mitchell is posting video game numbers.
BTW, Svi “fuck Steph Curry” Mykhailiuk is rocking a BPM of 39.2! Maybe we should find a few minutes for him, if for no other reason to force Clyde to attempt to pronounce his name…
Tyrese “Funky Shot Mechanics, Don’t Know If He Can Compete at the Next Level” Haliburton currently with the #10 BPM in the league.
Girlfriend is a 10, that means confidence. Kinda guy where he walks in the room and his dick’s already been there for two minutes. Didn’t any of you learn anything from Moneyball?
“The problem continues to be that he is too often forced to be this team’s #1 option and he isn’t suited to that role.”
Yes. exactly — and this is a core reason why a team wouldn’t really “make sense,” a term you inexplicably pushed back on for what can be interpreted as nothing more than contrarianism for its own sake.
“Fun to watch,” your other bugaboo is, one supposes, a subjective term but the Knicks starting lineup is an incredibly tough watch what with the unathleticism, style similarity in top three usage guys (*), lack of ball movement, stupidity, bricklaying, and sour attitude of one of said top three. If this team was in Sacto or Indiana or Utah we’d all be laughing at it and its League Pass ratings would be the lowest in the league.
I detest the aesthetics of this starting lineup. They’re virtually unwatchable. I make no apologies for this, nor am I remotely alone in this.
(*) All three are lefthanded, slow, chunky and blocky of body, lane foragers. Like blue, royal blue, and sky blue versions of the same kinda ugly sweater.
What the whaaaaat?
The whole of this team seems less than the sum of the parts and the pieces don’t seem all that complementary. For example, Brunson is a nice player, and plenty of good teams have lead guards that aren’t strong defenders. But we don’t pair him with a strong point of attack defender, because we don’t really have one, so it magnifies Brunson’s weakness on the defensive end. The Randle/Obi redundancy and the difficulty in getting minutes for Obi is another clear example.
We have some decent pieces that we’re not maximizing because of poor fit.
From @IQfor# AKA Teg (who?) https://twitter.com/IQfor3/status/1590771745744912385?s=20&t=g7-5VxA4pb3_treEkQrijA
E, you really are just a broken record that has nothing to say beyond regurgitating different versions of “Julius sucks,” “Thibs sucks,” “Leon sucks,” and “the Knicks doomed to mediocrity.” (*) The folks I am responding to don’t really need your help, they are perfectly capable of rebutting whatever I am posting. Since we clearly have no love lost for each other, why not be courteous and leave it to them?
* (**) What’s ironic is that you waste so much time watching and commenting on a team you find boring and senseless, run by folks who have no intelligence, and headed nowhere good for the foreseeable future. That makes about as much sense as watching 10 straight years of Seinfeld while blogging daily about how pointlessly boring and humorless it is. Seriously, do you have nothing better with which to occupy your time?
(**) I just wanted to do the cute asterisk thing you always do just to see how it felt…
Given that his TS% is almost 70 points higher that means he’s been iso-ing a whole lot less this year- a good thing!! But those turnover numbers have to go down- taking the ball out of his hands hasn’t helped there at all. He’s always been a high turnover guy so I’m not very confident that issue will ever get fixed.
Make sense is, among other things, why did we kept Fournier? Brunson is not good on defense, at best he is average, and RJ is no defensive stopper, he’d like to but he’s not. Trading Fournier for a defensive stopper would’ve made sense. Keeping him didn’t make any sense, and that’s what we did. RJ and Randle overlap, i’ll keep banging this drum, we must choose one or the other, and of course we should choose RJ because he’s younger and has potential, Randle is more productive right now but has zero potential, he is what he is. Getting Hart, without players cutting and moving, takes part of his point-center potential away. In recent games we’ve been turning to iso-ball and all the players stationary at their positions on offense, and this way it’s hard to assist players in a good position to score because all of them have their defender near. And there’s also the defensive scheme, relying heavily on help defense, that allows the other team to have open looks from 3P range because the defender went to help and then he’s late to contest. There’s a lot of things i think aren’t going well and we should try to improve, but i like our roster, i just think we don’t have a good chance to be in the playoffs and not be swept. So why don’t we move on from the vets – DRose, Fournier, Randle – and balance the team with some defense and a stretch-4? Young players, if we can. And then we can keep trying to win, because if we win, it means the young team is good, and if we don’t we get a good pick and can add another good piece to our rebuild.
The folks I am responding to don’t really need your help, they are perfectly capable of rebutting whatever I am posting. Since we clearly have no love lost for each other, why not be courteous and leave it to them?
Because you’re tone policing again and just being contrarian for contrarianism’s sake. I don’t believe for a second you don’t know the definition of the two terms you professed confusion about.(**)
So why did you write that you did, and steer the conversation in that direction? I only responded because I’m truly perplexed about the motivation behind such a thing.
You’ve been watching the NBA for multiple decades. You know the sport and the league well. You’ve obviously read sportswriting, old and new school, about the league.
So how could you possibly not know of the concept of a basketball team “not making sense”?
Answer: You don’t not know of it.
(**) I’ll leave it to the smarter modern lexicographers around here as to whether purposely professing lack of knowledge of something one actually knows so as to sow an artificial disagreement with other people, constitutes the T-word.
Another issue is the Obi/Randle lineup has gotten shredded the last two games- move the ball from side to side and you’re guaranteed to get an easy look. Philly stupidly just tried to go one on one- good teams will eat them up. Obviously you might as well try it with Mitch out and maybe it’ll improve a bit but most nights that lineup is going to need to be lights out offensively to be usable.
“But we don’t pair him with a strong point of attack defender, because we don’t really have one, so it magnifies Brunson’s weakness on the defensive end. The Randle/Obi redundancy and the difficulty in getting minutes for Obi is another clear example.”
These are both fair points. Regarding Brunson, it’s clear that Thibs is trying Cam out for just that reason, and the results have been spotty. It’s also clear that Grimes is the guy that would fit into that role, but he hasn’t been healthy.
As to Obi/Julius, despite Thibs’ preseason reluctance, they have been playing more minutes together, with mixed results. While they don’t “make sense” yet, I think they are also a work in progress.
More generally, I don’t see this roster as a finished product, even for this year, and I think the Grimes injury is a real setback. Maybe the answer is to trade for a decent 3-and-D wing.
I just don’t agree the sweeping generalization that this roster “doesn’t make sense.” For me, that applies to a roster like last year’s (no healthy NBA-level PG at all, no legit backup C) or the “billion PFs” year. Without belaboring the fact that the roster is that of play-in at best team to begin with, this roster has a glaring issue at the starting 2, and the coach is trying to mix-and-match to mitigate that.
“Because you’re tone policing again and just being contrarian for contrarianism’s sake. I don’t believe for a second you don’t know the definition of the two terms you professed confusion about.”
So what I’m asking is that you let someone without a grudge point that out to me. Obviously your words mean nothing to me, and all you do by posting your regurgitations is trigger a negative response.
JK gave a thoughtful and polite rebuttal. I responded to it in kind. That’s the way it should be. I would appreciate it if you ceased and desisted in responding to my posts and I will gladly do the same. I’m guessing that others would appreciate it as well.
I just don’t agree the sweeping generalization that this roster “doesn’t make sense.”
Not substantively, but only because you want to forbid others from “sweepingly generalizing.”
You yourself admitted that the team has probably the absolute feature, top characteristic of a team not making sense — casting as a 1 option a guy who isn’t a 1 option. That *literally standing alone* is enough for a team not to “make sense.”
This is in fact, and deep down you probably agree but just don’t want to admit it, one of the most mismatched rosters you’ll ever see. Others have hit on reasons why and there’s little need to pile on. It’s a hideously mismatched amalgam of ill-fitting parts.
“So what I’m asking is that you let someone without a grudge point that out to me.”
No grudge here. Not sure why you think there is. You’ve done enough for there to be — but there isn’t.
“JK gave a thoughtful and polite rebuttal.”
So did I. Then I gave another one.
“I would appreciate it if you ceased and desisted in responding to my posts and I will gladly do the same.”
You can cease and desist from mine if you want, your choice. I and we get to talk about the team the way we want. Still hasn’t fully registered with you, so I’m just pointing it out. Your call whether and when you want to join in.
Moving on from Randle and Thibs, and trading RJ is so obvious it hurts
Like, I’d love to watch Dolan trace his way through a maze. If a path forward gets you a bit closer to the end, but has a dead end like right there, does he just keep trying to force his pencil through??
I think it’s really necessary to start IQ. Like it or not, he’s been one of our best players on the defensive end (and not nearly as harmful offensively as, say, RJ), and this is reflected in pretty much every single all-in-one stat and his on/off stats, the latter of which (along with DRAPTOR) peg him as defensively elite so far this year. Even if there’s some regression and he’s not the second coming of Tony Allen, he should still be playing over Cam, who does literally nothing 98% of the time. That would go a long way towards shoring up our point of attack defense (we can hide Brunson on the weaker guy). I wouldn’t be surprised if it also improve IQ’s shooting, as he seems to do best as a secondary ball-handler. This should be the starting lineup unless Grimes ends up healthy and as productive as IQ.
Hart should also start until Mitch is back–Sims ain’t it (he’s still got pretty bad positioning and is generally a nonfactor.) I really wish they would run him in the pinch post and develop some back screen-cut-pass actions and what not, but that’s all too offensively creative for Thibs, who seems content to let Randle pound the ball into oblivion if Brunson can’t penetrate.
My only real beef with Thibs is he’s not playing the right guys the right minutes. Yes, this is far from a perfect roster. But the two things a coach can do is get guys to play hard and play the right guys the most minutes. Hart is the backup center. Sims is the 3rd string center. The starting center is injured, why is the 3rd string center playing more than the backup center (especially when Sims isn’t even playing well). Maybe when Grimes is healthy he should start over IQ. But he doesn’t seem to be. IQ is our best perimeter defender and Cam Reddish should be in the G league. Why is Cam getting real minutes? Why are you starting two guys who should at best be not even in the rotation?
First of all, sorry for being late, time-zone matters and I had to recoup some sleep 😉
Re: The absurdity of Randle’s grade.
Maybe it’s me, not being accustomed to the A-F system (here we use in theory a 1-10 scale including “half votes”, but in reality nobody ever got a vote under 4 and nobody get a 10, for instance a football striker who scores an hat trick gets a 9 or 9.5).
Going into the specifics, I don’t think (and I didn’t write) that he was the main responsible for yesterday loss, he clearly wasn’t.
I gave him the highest grade of the “real” starters (to me Sims isn’t one of them) and he was the second best player of the team (not counting Super-Svi).
The team was terrible, no energy, no effort, no ball movement, they were never in the game, it was a pathetic, listless team performance.
And he didn’t have a good effort in a loss (as he did with the Celtics where I gave him a “B-“, a good vote by “european standard” when a team lose 🙂 ), he was only the best of a disastrous bunch.
Should I have give him a clear cut “D”? Maybe, or maybe I have been conditioned by Macri and Co., who flooded Twitter with clips of his defense and turnovers…
Anyway those are my grades and you have the right to think they’re absurd.
I don’t thing they’re “absurd”, I think they have a logic and you disagree with that logic.
RE: The Knicks being chalk at 5-6.
Before the season, when our yearly W-L prediction poll shows up, I did my game-by-game guess to get my wins total (it was 45 this year, check the thread)*.
In my tea-leaves readings, the first 11-games were like this:
@MEM – L
vs DET – W
vs ORL – W
vs CHA – W
@ MILW – L
vs ATL – W
@ PHI – L
vs BOS – W (I had us going 1-3 against the Celtics this season)
@ MIN – L
@ BRK – L
So I was expecting a 5-6 record and in the post I explicity said that it was “my” prediction, not the general consensus (I wrote: “to me at 5-6 we’re still chalk on the season win-loss preview”).
Again, different opinions, the salt of life, if you had our chalk at 3-8 we’re up by 2 games and you’re probably happier than me 🙂
* I don’t review game-by-game prediction during the year.
What do you think you’d get for RJ now that he’s been extended? I don’t think there’s going to be a deal out there better than hanging on to him and hoping he improves given how he’s playing. He’s been better finishing and I’m sure his three point percentage will bounce back at least a little and he should make some gains in overall TS by the end of the season. That said, his peripheral stats have basically been flat his entire career- rebounds per 36 years by year: 5.9, 5.9, 6.1, 6.0. And assists: 3.0, 3.1, 3.1, 3.0. His steal/blocks, poor to begin with, have declined since his rookie year. Without those peripherals improving the chances of him ever earning his salary aren’t great.
I definitely agree that the Philly game was a bit of a mirage, defensively, as that comeback was based on some of the shittiest shot selection you’ll ever see. They couldn’t buy a jumper, and yet kept taking jumper after jumper after jumper.
“Because you’re tone policing again and just being contrarian for contrarianism’s sake. I don’t believe for a second you don’t know the definition of the two terms you professed confusion about.”
You can believe what you want to believe, but you are wrong. And when you presume motivations to others, that’s kind of being an asshole. Well, not really kind of.
“So did I. Then I gave another one.”
So you accuse me of being contrarian for it’s own sake, then refer to another point I made as as a “bugaboo”, then say I’m trying to “forbid others from “sweepingly generalizing.”” If that sounds polite to you, that confirms what I said above.
“ Hart is the backup center. Sims is the 3rd string center. The starting center is injured, why is the 3rd string center playing more than the backup center”
I think this is because Sims’s game is more like Mitch’s than Hart’s is. Without Mitch the first unit is not complete, but, since it’s early in the year, Thibs might still want to get the second unit going as a group.
Now I don’t agree, because I’d rather use the same time to experiment with a first unit that doesn’t have three guys who clog the paint, i.e. start Hart and see if RJ and Randle benefit from his passing. But — last game Julius decided to shoot only threes. Maybe Thibs told him to do that. Maybe Boston “rubbed off” on Randle like he said. IDK.
None of it seems purposeful at the moment, which I think is the problem. Even in a loss, if I thought our guys were running a consistent offense, I could handle it. Right now I can’t tell what is going on. Even Clyde said “the Knicks lack an identity.” He may be speaking of defense for the most part, but I haven’t seen a consistent approach on the offensive end.
And — to be sure — I’m not bothered by our particular losses so far. I think we were supposed to lose to those teams. I just don’t like the ways we did.
“Should I have give him a clear cut “D”? Maybe, or maybe I have been conditioned by Macri and Co., who flooded Twitter with clips of his defense and turnovers…”
My grade would have been something like a B-/C+. I don’t see how you could possibly go lower than that given the excellent shooting and rebounding numbers. As to norming the grading, I would say that D- would be something like a 2-3 on a scale of 1-10. My grade for Randle would have been at least a 6.
“So I was expecting a 5-6 record and in the post I explicity said that it was “my” prediction, not the general consensus (I wrote: “to me at 5-6 we’re still chalk on the season win-loss preview”).”
Thanks for clarifying, I thought you meant chalk as in what one should expect based on consensus preseason predicitons, which had ATL and BOS significantly better than us.
that’s why RJ should be traded while he has “upside”
I believe it’s just a matter of finding a common “translation”.
Broadly speaking, here (in Italy’s sport press/analysys) the relation looks like this:
1 to 3 Never used
4 = F (bad)
5 = D (not enough)
6 = C (medium value and the first “positive”, meaning you had an “average”, acceptable game)
7 = B (nice game)
8 = A (good game, usually the highest vote in sports 1-10 scale)
9 rarely used (fantastic game, A plus?)
10 never used
The plus/minus have some kind of equivalent in the 0.5 grades (so for instance 5.5 relates to C-, as in “close to good enough”).
I don’t know if it’s the same in Portugal, I’ll ask Cyber. 🙂
So you would have graded him at least a C (6) and I was a bit harsher (around 5), I’m aware I applied a “penalty” basically to everyone for what I perceived as a collective lack of “fighting spirit”.
The @CLE game was gobbled from my list, it was an expected “L”
Sorry Max, i’m not aware of that. Here the sports media is usually favorable to one of the big 3 clubs, so i don’t have the patience to read recaps/grades that i know will say one thing if they’re favorable to my team and another if they’re against. I only read the news. Recaps, reviews, grades and stuff like that, i skip.
I use SofaScore.com (i think they’re from Croatia) to check live scores of my favorite teams, and others accross europe (or the world, as i check the brazilian championship too). And they use a system like yours, 1 to 10, only they use all the decimals and not just the 5.
go outside, y’all
Max, the most commonly used number system in schools here is the 0-100 system, and there’s a similar thing in that 65 is usually considered barely passing and grades below 50 are rare. Then theres a 1-4 system which is relative to “standards,” where 4=exceeding standards, 3=meeting standards, 2=below standards and 1=far below standards.
In the ABCDF system, it works something like A=91-100, B=81-90, C=71-80, D=65-70, and F (failing) is anything below 65. Increments of 5 are most common. Some schools shift the letters up a bit, e.g. A=94-100, B=85-94, C=75-84, D=65-74. The plusses and minuses are relative to those benchmarks, so B+ might be a 87-89 and A- might be a 90-93, etc., etc. D- and F+ are almost never given. F generally translates to a 60, 55 or 50.
Julius’s stat line seems like something that would have to fall in the B-C range, meaning that if it were anonymous and a player on another team, whether Embiid, Giannis, or Banchero, It would be unreasonable to look at a 24 points on a .600+ TS% and 11 rebounds and say “well he had 4 turnovers and only 3 assists so I’m giving him the bare minimum of a passing grade.” By putting him barely above the grade category of Brunson and RJ and even close to Reddish, it doesn’t seem to fit in to the system.
Now on pure aesthetics, you can argue that despite the good shooting and rebounding, he was no more pleasing to watch than Brunson or Cam or RJ, but then it becomes probably more subjective than I would presume you intend it to be. On the other hand, if you want me to accept your grades on the basis of how the player made you feel during the game, that’s fine, so long as we know that caveat..then I would not quibble with the objectivity. I might still disagree with why you felt the way that you did, though!
If I go outside at 1:00 AM I’ll probably get checked by the Carabinieri 🙂
Hahaha! It’s almost midnight here. 😛
“So you accuse me of being contrarian for it’s own sake, then refer to another point I made as as a “bugaboo”, then say I’m trying to “forbid others from “sweepingly generalizing.”” If that sounds polite to you, that confirms what I said above.”
I don’t know that it’s really even an “accusation,” nor do I in any sense think it’s any kind of character flaw. It’s more of an annoying internet tic from my perspective.
But in point of fact, you were so particular about the rest of us painting between your lines and only your lines that you wouldn’t even let us call the 11th pick in the draft a “lottery pick.”
I’d recommend just letting people say their piece, even though I too know how difficult it is sometimes to steer clear when “OMG someone on the internet has said something wrong. I cannot let this stand!!!”
You know what it means when someone says an NBA roster makes no sense. So let them say it in that way. (Obviously if you disagree substantively, that’s perfectly fair game for you to pounce. If you think the Knick roster does make sense, then you should pounce. But it might work to just leave the nomenclature fights alone and let people say a draft pick was “incinerated” if it kinda … you know … was. Is that a provocative way to describe it, a provocative verb? Absolutely, it is. Can it be described in a more placid, academic way? Of course it can. But so what?)
“Now on pure aesthetics, you can argue that despite the good shooting and rebounding, he was no more pleasing to watch than Brunson or Cam or RJ, but then it becomes probably more subjective than I would presume you intend it to be.”
It’s not “aesthetics.” He’s the top dog on the team (*) and so he’s graded on a higher standard than other players, a tougher curve. He did his usual shit where he’s haphazard and careless and jumpy and monopolizing with the ball — thus the turnovers — his defense was horrific and lazy, and the team he ostensibly leads lost by 30 and scored less than 90 points. He was a worst-on-the-team minus 29.
That puts a cap and ceiling on his grade of, being charitable, a C. I’d probably give him a C-/D+. No aesthetics involved there at all.
I’ve always said that in general I don’t believe in “pure” stat lines, that’s why I only do grades for games I watch entirely, and while I try to be as objective as I can I don’t think it’s possible to put subjectivity aside doing “whatever” in life.
I can only assure you that I don’t have an “agenda”, not even firing Thibs… 😀
On our roster Julius and RJ (and often IQ) are stats stuffers, like many other players around the league, RJ’s awareness for 20-points games is the litmus test for this.
In a stat line a contested acrobatic tap-in that bounces in and out counts as a missed point blank layup, a hurried three as an hailmary at the end of a quarter or an off-balance shot-clock beater (whoever talked about “Lies, damned lies, and statistics” was right sometimes 🙂 )
A stat line doesn’t tell you how and when things happens and to me that’s not only “pure aesthetics”, it’s understanding how a game went.
So no, I’m not impressed by Julius’ stat line (nor I would be if his name was Paolo, Giannis or Joel), I watched a player that kept us barely afloat in the 1st half (taking 12 shots) then scored 5 points (shooting 1-3 from the field) in the second half when we needed to comeback and whose defense wasn’t good all game long.
Were his teammates worse? Yes, that’s why they got worse grades 🙂
And you have all the right to disagree on everything I said.
I think what has me bummed so far this season even though it’s early is that I don’t see quite the same fight as I did two seasons ago when thibs first got here. I know that team had a few nights they got blown out but I honestly don’t remember them ever getting embarrassed all season like they did last night or having huge letdowns like they have in a few other games. Even when they lost they fought super hard and even when they couldn’t score they stayed in games with their defense. So while the record isn’t that bad so far and there’s easily a chance for them to get better, it just feels like something is still off team chemistry wise. Maybe better than last season but still not like it was two seasons ago. That team seemed to run through brick walls for each other. Right now I see a team that is still largely playing kid of selfish. And that’s not all on Randle. As someone said upthread. The parts are better than the whole right now.
Wizards beat the Mavs without KP and Beal. They took Frankie Smokes’ best shot (0-3 but +4 in 4 minutes) and still prevailed.
zion scored 17 in the fourth but holy shit he cannot play defense in the nba. i gave up on kat’s d in yr 2 and zion isn’t getting there either.
CJ McCollum is shooting a .481 ts% which just seems unthinkable, that’s 70 points below his career average. Quite literally shooting the Pelicans out of games.
Thanks Max, appreciate the detailed and thoughtful response, and glad you are receptive to constructive feedback. I still disagree with your take, though. If Randle scores 24 points on 15 shots and pull down 11 rebounds, I don’t see any way that his grade could be anything less than a C+ unless he had like 8 turnovers. And make no mistake, C+ is a very mediocre grade….not one a kid proudly shows to Mom and Pop! Maybe if RJ, Brunson, Cam, Rose or Obi showed up in the least, we’d be having a happier discussion. But that’s fine, we can agree to disagree on that one. I truly appreciate that you put lots of though into your recaps and hope you keep doing them.
If I’m reading the boxscore right, WAS just beat DAL without KP & Beal
“Obviously if you disagree substantively, that’s perfectly fair game for you to pounce.”
First, I actually do disagree with the contention that our pieces don’t fit. That should be clear from my posts. I think the issue with the roster is not “fit” as much as it is “quality.” Our pieces just aren’t very good relative to the pieces other team have, and some of those pieces are just not playing well even for them.
Second, please don’t tell me how to respond to other posters or what words to take issue with. If someone has a problem with the way I respond to their post, they can tell me directly and don’t need your help.
Third, please stop trying to rationalize why you are being an asshole and just stop being one. The blog would be better for it.
Fourth, go fuck yourself.
“If I’m reading the boxscore right, WAS just beat DAL without KP & Beal”
And the Blazers win without Lillard, Nurkic and Sharpe.
That’s why I don’t discount our wins vs. PHI, MIN and CHA even though they were missing key players.
C’mon man, really, do you not see how you may be contributing to the tenor of this exchange
it’s tough sometimes not getting soured on the nba, while still being a knick fan…
was just listening to fat joe talk his book on espn…maybe my favorite “celebrity” knick fan…building a nice stack of bought, but un-read, books…
not interested in the book, listening to his voice though, reminds me what it is to be a knick fan…
i swear, back in the 90’s, never dreamed i’d know what being a cubs’ fan felt like…being a fan of any perpetual moribund sports franchise…
i blame you all for this situation which i find myself connected to now…yep…
lots of good basketball and great individual play going on around the league, trying to take advantage of league pass to catch different games…
knick fandom’s a serious hard luck life…
thank goodness for vet’s day and the pistons…
not to say we’ll beat them today, i’m pretty well convinced at this point of the season that we are more than capable of losing any game on the schedule…just better than normal probability for success…
Hahaha, that’s funny, Geo! 😉
In my case, i blame Patrick and the beloved 90s Knicks! But man, they really almost delivered… we needed just one game of two to win it all! I’m confident we’ll get there again, but probably not with Leon Rose unless we somehow win the lottery, Pelicans way! 😀