[hardwoodhoudini.com] — Friday, September 30, 2022 6:00:00 AM
Boston Celtics: DK calls 6x Knicks All-Star signing with Cs potential nightmare Hardwood Houdini
[www.nba.com] — Thursday, September 29, 2022 10:46:12 PM
NBA Japan Games 2022 presented by Rakuten & Nissan: By the Numbers NBA.com
[nbaanalysis.net] — Thursday, September 29, 2022 7:51:26 PM
NBA Rumors: This Knicks-Lakers Trade Features Evan Fournier NBA Analysis Network
[www.si.com] — Thursday, September 29, 2022 7:12:19 PM
Knicks’ Derrick Rose Details How He Took Diet Inspiration from Tim Duncan Sports Illustrated
[www.nydailynews.com] — Thursday, September 29, 2022 7:11:10 PM
Jalen Brunson prepared for ‘whatever it takes’ with Knicks New York Daily News
[www.marca.com] — Thursday, September 29, 2022 6:53:49 PM
Knicks play-by-play announcer Mike Breen lost his $1.75 million house in Long Island to a fire Marca
[www.si.com] — Thursday, September 29, 2022 6:16:46 PM
Obi Toppin Is The Key To Finding Success For New York Knicks Sports IllustratedObi Toppin gushes over Knicks teammate he’s excited to play with ClutchPointsReport from Knicks Content Day 2022 Posting and ToastingKnicks’ Obi Toppin will again be struggling to find consistent time New York Daily NewsKnicks’ Obi Toppin looking to improve defense, jump shot New York Post View Full Coverage on Google News
[dailyknicks.com] — Thursday, September 29, 2022 5:00:00 PM
Evan Fournier addresses Knicks trade rumors after drama-filled offseason Daily Knicks
[heavy.com] — Thursday, September 29, 2022 2:42:19 PM
Knicks Big Man Responds to Pleas From Fan Heavy.com
[empiresportsmedia.com] — Thursday, September 29, 2022 12:43:27 PM
Knicks’ Cam Reddish denies trade request rumor: It’s not fair Empire Sports Media
[hoopshype.com] — Thursday, September 29, 2022 11:57:09 AM
The Westchester Knicks, the official NBA G League affiliate of the New York Knicks, announced today ? Hoops Hype
[www.si.com] — Thursday, September 29, 2022 11:32:42 AM
‘Blessed’ Knick Cam Reddish Addresses Eventful Offseason Sports Illustrated
[www.nba.com] — Thursday, September 29, 2022 10:56:55 AM
Garden Deck NBA.com
[www.oursportscentral.com] — Thursday, September 29, 2022 10:14:34 AM
Desagana Diop Named Westchester Knicks Head Coach OurSports Central
[dailyknicks.com] — Thursday, September 29, 2022 10:00:00 AM
Mavericks’ Dorian Finney-Smith has best response to Jalen Brunson signing with Knicks Daily Knicks
[dailyknicks.com] — Thursday, September 29, 2022 8:00:00 AM
3 head coaches who could replace Tom Thibodeau if Knicks fire him Daily Knicks
91 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2022.09.30)”
Brian beat me to the punch on All-Star Superman. It’s the title that captures everything that is special about that character, and all the things that so many other creators — Zach Snyder most of all — fundamentally do not understand about him.
“I’m not worried about being in no-man’s land.”
It’s misplaced worry anyway. Every team that’s eventually going to contend is at that 41 win area at some point unless they skip over a level with an elite free agent signing. What matters is whether the team is young or old, capped out, has picks (how many) etc…. This is obviously not the finished product. We drafted RJ, Obi, Quick, Mitch, Grimes etc.. with the expectation some will improve over the next few years. We paid Brunson and put him into cap space to skip over the development part and have a young improving player that’s ready now. We signed and traded for other young players like Hart, Cam, McBride, and Sims to fill out spots and have further development. We have draft picks to use as currency in an eventual trade over and above being able to select players ourselves. This year is about one thing. It’s about hoping some of the young players take a step forward. If they aren’t improving, then we have issues to worry about. But several of these guys are theoretically still 2-3 years away from their peak.
Owen,
The poker hand from the last thread was insane.
Thinking the guy might be bluffing or semi bluffing and trying to push him out was reasonable, especially if she knows how he plays. But she had no hand to catch a bluff once he came back at her. I have no idea who she is, but she may be at that table for reasons other than her poker ability. She’s pleasing to look at. That poor guy. He was as confused by what happened as everyone else.
Don’t mean to hijack a thread but yeah, that hand is beyond crazy and everything that has happened after is equally crazy – from her word salad explanations to the fact that she gave him 125K back to all the twitter commentary. Poker world is going completely bananas.
Also, my life goals are to have someone write up footnotes for one of my posts here. And to learn how to post comic strips using html.
“Every team that’s eventually going to contend is at that 41 win area at some point unless they skip over a level with an elite free agent signing.”
I would actually like to see some data on this, but regardless even if it’s true it doesn’t mean this is a misplaced worry.
The concern is not necessarily that we’re a 37-43 win team right this second, it’s that we don’t seem to have a plan to get much better than that.
I don’t need to be lectured on the possibilities. Yes, we can find the next Giannis picking 9th-14th. Yes, RJ can get much, much better than the overwhelming majority of players with his three-year track record.
These are just not the kind of possibilities smart teams bank on, sorry if this offends.
I don’t want to beat a dead horse, we’ve gone through this a million times. People have their varied opinions.
What I do want to know, mostly for the sake of all-important Knickerblogger accountability, is how long the Rose doves will give him.
If the idea behind not fully rebuilding was that it takes too long, at what point do we start to wonder if the “hybrid” approach takes just as long, if not longer, and comes with far fewer certainties?
Rose has been POBO for 2.5 seasons now. During that time we’ve won a single playoff game, and the team that won it has 1) lost many of its key contributors at this point and 2) clearly benefitted from a lot of luck.
People here regularly critique the Sixers for taking 5 seasons to build a team that could regularly win 50+ games. Fair enough! So, when is Rose going to build a team that can win 50+ in consecutive seasons? Is he going to beat that allegedly prohibitively long timetable?
As a Rose non- hawk, your question is meaningless to me because my belief in the “hybrid” approach is not because it is quicker. It is because it contains more certainties. We did the worst record in the league routine- but Zion and Ja are not on our roster. The next year we were about to go full tank again-trading our best player for a pick-The season was cut short – and Edwards and LaMelo are not on our roster.
So I will give Leon as much time as he needs as long as I feel he is capable of executing his plan. So far he has done 3 things to make me wonder if he is capable, another 1 or 2, and I will want him gone. But we are not there.
it’s that we don’t seem to have a plan to get much better than that.
How is this even remotely true? We won 37 games last year and this off season we signed a young point guard to address one of the biggest weaknesses this team had last year. How is that not part of a plan to get better?
We also made a serious attempt to trade for Donovan Mitchell. You can argue whether that was a smart move or not but clearly, we were wanting to make that trade in the hopes that it would make us better, no?
What you say seems to be code for “we’re not tanking for a top 5 pick.” There are a lot of ways we can get better. Internal growth from our current young players. A trade. A free agent signing. All of those things are clearly on the table in the next few years.
Full tank?? We tried KD and failed, and then instead of tanking, we settled for Julius Randle. That is not tanking. Period.
Edit: The season was a disaster, with the “summer of PFs”, but we did not tank. That i can assure you.
“How is this even remotely true? We won 37 games last year and this off season we signed a young point guard to address one of the biggest weaknesses this team had last year. How is that not part of a plan to get better?”
If I’m obviously completely wrong, you should take the opportunity to get fabulously wealthy. Las Vegas thinks we got 2.5 games better.
I would take the over actually, but I’m definitely not confident enough about it to bet any substantial amount of money. You clearly know we got much better though, so congratulations in advance on the early retirement.
Just watched a clip of Weisman jamming on Porzingis during a preseason game in Japan…
“We did the worst record in the league routine- but Zion and Ja are not on our roster.”
It is certainly the case that no strategy comes with full guarantees of success.
It is also the case that RJ seems to be the player on our roster with the highest value around the league, and that our plan to break out of this morass depends almost entirely on him.
So even though that season didn’t play out exactly as we wanted, it appears to have led to a much better outcome than most (all?) other seasons we’ve had recently.
You can’t argue that rebuilding is a proven failure, and also we don’t need to tank because RJ Barrett will shut the haters up. If RJ leads us to success, that vindicates rebuilding.
Is WalkerandBender Swift?
I am 100% with TNFH here. We are locked in to being mediocre at best until Randle is gone. We have some young players, we have picks, but I don’t see how anyone could say that we have a plausible hope of getting out of the second round of the playoffs, at best, in the next three years, barring a Stratofortress sized black swan.
Cyber, the about to go full tank mode reference was purely the trade deadline pivot, not the off season Merc signings. We didn’t want to tank up to then but we sucked, and then traded our best player for a pick.
What if Quick has a breakout season Darius Garland style? If you compare their 2nd season, they’re quite similar.
https://www.thestrick.land/strick/the-steps-to-stardom-for-immanuel-quickley
Ok, i see what you mean. But not even then we did tank, we won 4 games of our last 7, we looked to be chasing wins. Maybe the season being cut short allowed us to pick 8th. 😉 😛
Your comment about no plans to get better implies they have no plans beyond this season.
I have no idea how much better they’ll be this year. I think they’ll be better, maybe much better, but who knows.
But signing a really good young point guard to address the team’s biggest weakness. Getting rid of vets. Bringing in Hart. Resigning Mitch and RJ. Ultimately walking away from Donavan and keeping all our picks. Clearly there is a plan to try and get better after this season, no?
I mean, yeah they didn’t trade Randle or Fournier or Rose. Not yet at least. But maybe their plan just isn’t on some rushed timeline? Maybe they don’t think they need to trade Randle right away no matter the cost because their plan isn’t contingent on them being in the ECF this season?
“The concern is not necessarily that we’re a 37-43 win team right this second, it’s that we don’t seem to have a plan to get much better than that.”
We have the same plan as every other young team in the NBA. The young players that were drafted or acquired over a series of years have to improve. If after enough development time you determine you drafted poorly (or were unlucky in the lottery) you start over. We are nowhere near that stage, especially because we are bypassing the some of the development model by adding players like Brunson and accumulating picks for trades. Dallas drafted Brunson, developed him, and when he was ready, we took him away. Would we somehow feel better if we drafted him, developed him and paid him instead?
There are no certainties in any of this. Some of the all out tanking teams are planning to draft a star, but some are going to drop in the lottery, draft a disappointment, lose players to better markets, have injuries (like KP) etc…
RJ has a lot to prove and we screwed up with Porzingis. However, we still have a lot of young talent and ammo.
The only thing I’m worried about is RJ and the gang adding something new to their games every year and taking a step forward. If they do, it might be 41 this year, 46 next year, make a trade and get a little more development the next year and get to 55.
Yeah, I’m swift. When the website reboot happened, I was no longer able to log in with my old username. Plus, I really believe in the long term potential of Bill Walker and Jonathan Bender.
“But signing a really good young point guard to address the team’s biggest weakness. Getting rid of vets. Bringing in Hart. Resigning Mitch and RJ. Ultimately walking away from Donavan and keeping all our picks. Clearly there is a plan to try and get better after this season, no?”
Obviously, the front office’s intention is to get better. I’m certainly not accusing them of running some kind of The Producers scheme here.
I’m saying they don’t have a clear plan to carry out this intention. It’s all a bunch of hoping that players (who are better than Donovan Mitchell, but will also cost less, I guess) make trade demands and players drafted late in the lottery become stars.
It just doesn’t inspire much confidence. Just about every professional sports team can hope for these kinds of things. The smart ones put themselves in position to not have to hope for these kinds of things.
“We have the same plan as every other young team in the NBA.”
I mean, this is just utter nonsense. The Pacers, Thunder, Rockets, and Pistons are obviously regarding nominally making the playoffs as not worth the cost of worsening their draft odds.
We are taking the *exact opposite* approach to that calculation–we prefer the 8-10th seed to better lottery odds.
How are these strategies remotely similar?
I’m in the middle of the bridge, between Noble and the pessimists, and Swift/Bernie and the optimists. Our plan isn’t great, but it’s a plan. Maybe it’s a mediocre plan, or probably, i should say. But we have 4 young guys with potential, RJ has the high draft pick pedigree, but i feel great about expecting at least one of Obi, Quick and Grimes can make a big leap and get to a level that will help this team get higher in the standings. We have good pieces to put around them, or to use in trades, in Brunson, Mitch and Hartenstein. I don’t feel great about Randle’s prospects here, but maybe in the right deal he can help make a trade too. DRose and Fournier are serviceable so they have value in trades. That’s our plan, to develop the young guys and hope 2 of them can grow into all-stars, or at least borderline all-stars, and to wait for the right* trade for a superstar.
* – I have the same reservations as you, Noble, about this. Because it’ll cost too much, but also i understand why DMitchell wasn’t the right star. We would give more picks if the star was a 2-way player, so when that’s the case we’ll probably use a lot of assets and will be left with assets that won’t get us a 2nd star, but if he’s a 2-way star, it’s easier to put a good team around him. DMitchell would be hard to build around without getting another star.
Blake Griffin just signed with the Celtics. He’s not exactly a Gallo replacement, even though they play the same position.
between Noble and the pessimists, and Swift/Bernie and the optimists
Hmm, if the endpoints of the spectrum are Swift and E, I am much closer to Swift. But if the endpoints are Swift and Noble, I feel a bit closer to Noble.
Looks like you’re with me, in the middle of the bridge. 😉
Count me into Team Middle as well.
Wow, just caught up on Hubert’s posts from yesterday. I probably would have to tip off law enforcement, even if anonymously, even though just GTFO would probably be prudent.
Wow, Mets calling up Francisco Alvarez, apparently to be the vs. lefty platoon DH from here on out. I guess the Darin Ruf trade goes from overpay to very very bad overpay (the Mets traded JD Davis and 3 minor leaguers for him).
Swift’s new username is way too long to quote…
🙂
Yeah, I’m Team Middle, too.
I just take issue with saying we have “no plan.” Just say “I don’t like their plan.” To act like there is no plan, though?
Also, I’m not even a fan of the word “plan.” Best laid plans and all that. I prefer the word strategy or the phrase “team building philosophy.”
When you have a plan, then you get screwed when that plan doesn’t work out. If you have a strategy and team building philosophy, the time line is more fluid and you can pivot to a new option when it presents itself. I feel like that is what we’re doing.
I respect and even agree with Noble’s perspective, but this is the first Knicks team in memory (admittedly short-term, as I’m blocking most of it) where virtually every player on the team is both fun to root for and has significant potential upside (even Randle, with the possible bounce-back). Only Fournier seems to just be what he is, but that’s not so very bad (except on D).
So yeah, there’s no obvious and easy path to a chip, but I’m giving Rose until the end of the next off-season before I crap all over him (except for his speaking skills, about which I’ll shit on him now). I tend to think there are less clear and obvious paths to glory than Noble (see Minnesota — a path, indeed, but a good one?).
I see us about to start year three of Moving Up from the Bottom. I hope to enjoy this year, and see where it takes us after that.
The Knicks under Leon Rose are a high-floor, low-ceiling kind of affair. I would describe many of his moves as high-floor, low-ceiling. He’s not a big risk taker or out-of-the-box thinker, so it’s not really very surprising that we’re in the position that we’re in.
The Knicks were 19th in the league in SRS last year, and are projected to be something similar this year. The team clearly looks better on paper, so maybe they bump up a few spots. That’s all fine. I’m kind of excited to watch some basketball and see if they can defy expectations. There’s just not a whole lot of ceiling to dream on. This particular core of players does not seem destined to go on a deep playoff run in the near future.
So, the last 20 championships in reverse order are:
GSW
Milwaukee
LAL
Toronto
GSW
GSW
Cleveland
GSW
SA
Miam
Miami
Dallas
LAL
LAL
Boston
SA
Miami
SA
Let’s combine some of these, there’s no point in talking about GSW or SA 4 separate times.
Warriors – 2015,2017,2018,2022
Milwaukee – 2021
Lakers – 2020
Toronto – 2019
Cleveland – 2016
Spurs – 2014
Miamix2 – 2012,2013
Dallas – 2011
Lakersx2 – 2009,2010
Boston – 2008
Spursx3 – 2003,2005,2007
Miami – 2006
And let’s define the mediocrity treadmill as winning between 32 and 45 games, a winning percentage between 39% and 54%, in multiple seasons.
The Warriors never hit the treadmill; they go from 23 wins in 66 games (28 wins in a full season) in 2012 and jump to 47 wins in 2013.
Milwaukee is on the treadmill prior to their championship. From 2015-2018 they finish with 41, 33, 42, and 44 wins. But, they have an actual budding superstar on the team already. Giannis has already started making All-NBA and All-Defensive teams starting in 2017; I struggle to see a future 2X MVP, DPOY, and top 25 player all time currently on our roster. Plus, it appears that the coach was holding the team back; in 2019, with no major roster moves, the Bucks jump from 44 to 60 wins in Budenholzer’s first year.
The Lakers are on the treadmill in 2018 and 2019 winning 35 and 37 games. Then they complete remake their roster including the best player in the league and arguably the best player in NBA history as a FA.
Toronto never hits the treadmill. They win 34 games in 2013 and that summer they trade for Kyle Lowry. They also dump their high usage, low efficiency forward on one of the most incompetently run franchises in the NBA.
Cleveland never hits the treadmill. In 2014 they win 33 games and then they sign the best player in the league and arguably the best player in NBA history as a FA.
SA doesn’t hit the treadmill.
Miami bottoms out in 2008 winning 15 games, improves to 43 wins in 2009, and then signs the best player in the league and arguably the best player in NBA history as a FA.
Dallas never hits the treadmill.
Lakers are on the treadmill, winning 34, 45, and 42 games.
Boston is on the treadmill in 2005 and 2006 and decide to blow the team up and tank in 2007. Then they blow the team up again and win the title.
The Spurs are never on the treadmill.
Miami never hits the treadmill. In 2003, they win 25 games, draft Wade, and in 2004 they win 42 games. In 2005, they win 59 games.
So in the last 20 years, the only championship teams that were on the mediocrity treadmill had either Giannis or Kobe already on the roster.
Oh, and needless to say but I’m a pessimist.
I would say I’m mostly an optimist because the Knicks have been so incompetent for so long… just having some general normalcy is a nice thing.
I don’t require much, just a team that looks like it’s going to make the playoffs each year. That being said, maybe that isn’t on the menu this year, but we’ll see.
Chic, nice analysis, but one of the take-homes one could end up with is that you really need a top-5 player or you’re not going to win it all. With at least one of those guys being recycled a few times in that list.
Since there are, let’s see… (counting with fingers…) only about five top-5 players at any one time, and 30 teams, at least 25 teams are thus pretty much shit out of luck in terms of winning a chip.
So I don’t know, but maybe “We’re not going to win a chip this year!” is not such a useful lament. I mean, it’s true, but it’s also true that my son is not going to be president, or be a nuclear physicist, or at least those are pretty damn unlikely outcomes, so not really worth spending energy on from a lamentation perspective.
But he’s a great kid, and he’s likely to do something really interesting with his life, and perhaps make a difference. And I really enjoy enjoying the hell out of him. That works for me.
Fanduel sportsbook has Knicks over 38.5 wins right now at only -105. Basically a nothingburger house vig. (*). That’s the easiest money imaginable for Team Optimism. Any of them going to take it?
You know the old saying: Money talks … cough … other stuff walks.
(*) Under is -115, so they and the action right now are actually leaning a little more under.
On the likeability of the roster, I still have trouble rooting for Rose and Randle. Maybe Randle will get me to change my mind about him this season. We’ll see.
All Star Superman is streaming on HBO, i’ll check it out…
and yes, BC and al – i get your point with the virtuous take on superman…no doubt for the first 60 or so years that’s how he was exclusively portrayed…
i like though superman being a reflection of our times, not that things were so perfect circa 1930, certainly no more naive…perhaps more restrictive and less honest…
Kingdom Come simply feels like a more truthful progression of Kal-El’s time on earth…something that synder hints at during the end of jla, superman has feelings…he doesn’t always have to be a “turn the other cheek” type of character…in the end he always does the right thing though…same as batman…
Lex Luthor: Man of Steel hits hard at the superman mythology…the reliance on “gods”…how that can inhibit the progression (toasting the planet quicker) of humankind…
superman ain’t nothing but an invasive alien species…
Geo, I’ve never seen the movie adaptation. Brian and I are talking about the 12-issue series, written by Grant Morrison and drawn by Frank Quitely. Based on some of the other straight-to-video DC movies, my guess is the movie will have to skip over a lot of it.
Well, we already did half of this plan (Brunson). Now we just need to dump our high usage low efficiency forward. The taller one. This will get us above the treadmill.
To become a contender, we need the shorter forward to become DeRozan. Growing up he watched DeRozan, so it’ll be easy. And last, but definitely not least, we need a Top5 player to become disgruntled and end up here on a lopsided trade.
Actually, the year after they dumped Bargs on us they dumped another high-usage, medium-efficiency forward the next year: Rudy Gay. The fact that I’ve compared RJ to Rudy Gay multiple times is the icing on the cake.
I’m not going to take it because I don’t gamble. Besides once in a blue moon buying a scratch off. If I go to Vegas, I prefer walking around drinking, catching a show and maybe playing a few bucks on a slot machine. That’s it. Gambling just ain’t really my thing. Never has been.
Thanks, will send photo of my mansion next June
So I don’t know, but maybe “We’re not going to win a chip this year!” is not such a useful lament. I mean, it’s true, but it’s also true that my son is not going to be president, or be a nuclear physicist, or at least those are pretty damn unlikely outcomes, so not really worth spending energy on from a lamentation perspective.
I think this is why I’m so hard team optimist. I don’t look at it as championship or bust. Of course I would love that. But I LOVED the 90’s Knicks and they never won a chip. Give me a team that year in and year out wins most of its games, makes the playoffs and can win a round (or two even) and I’m happy. We’ve been so bad for so long just being a 45 to 50 win team four or five years in a row would be a victory for me. After that, yeah I hope we can take that next step. But it’s freaking sports. This shit is entertainment. That’s all. To me, championship or bust is like saying “I only watch movies that could possibly win an Oscar.” Sometimes I just to watch a fun movie, you know?
I hope RJ becomes a lot better than Rudy Gay. If that’s his outcome i’d be very disappointed.
I’ll wait for Brian’s post to make my win prediction, but i’d take the over for sure. And i’m betting we won’t see a lot of predictions here at KB that are for 38 wins or less. Also i’m betting you (E) will bet 38 wins or less, and if it’s such a sure thing why don’t you bet on the Vegas’ under? You can get rich, just go place your bet.
I don’t think it’s championship or bust. Obviously, the 90s always ended in frustration but I have nothing but fond memories about those years (except for 1997, I’ll always be angry about that). I just want to see any evidence that spending multiple years muddling around a .500 record and fighting to lose in the 1st round of the playoffs is actually a step in the direction of a perennial 50+ win team.
I’m pretty sure that I am the far end of the pessimist spectrum. I don’t think they are even worth paying any attention to at all. They have been a laughingstock of an organization for the entire century, which is almost a quarter over now. You guys are all better off sticking to carblogger, tvlistwithalan, and LAzagats.net . As long as James Dolan owns this team, you are wasting your time.
Donnie, you’re not wrong, but watching IQ and Obi brings joy into my heart.
I just hope Tommy T lets me have just a little bit of joy this season…
I’m getting more pessimistic on the team if this roster is what we are going into the season with. Rose will almost definitely play more than IQ for the 20 games he’ll be healthy, Grimes in a walking boot isnt a good sign, Mitch and Julius is a bad 4-5 combo spacing wise. IQ and Obi overall will play far less than they should.
Brunson being an actual good player means we’ll be too good for a top lottery pick again. Just not a good feeling about the team right now unless moves are made or one of the young guys makes a star leap.
If there’s a Knicks optimism bridge, I hope there’s netting off the sides. Otherwise, All-Star Superman is working double duty.
***you’re not wrong, but watching IQ and Obi brings joy into my heart***
Oh, sure, I get why you guys do it. It’s just like Jowle’s says, to no specific set of variables, “this isn’t going to end well”.
There was a time when I put my time and faith in young guys like John Wallace, Mike Sweetney, Frank Williams, TDDWTDD, Jordan Hill, Wilson Chandler, Walt McCarty, and Maceij Lampe. The hope was always there, but the results never were. (Even if any of them had become really good players, it would have been for another team anyway (like Gallinari, who was, really, the only player to become as good as we collectively hoped for from any of our young “homegrown” guys).
Francisco Alvarez batting 7th and playing DH for the Amazin’s today
I’m somewhere between Swifty and Z-man on the optomist-pessimist scale. It looks like the best strategy over the last 20 years has been “signing the best player in the league and arguably the best player in NBA history as a FA”. We have tried that with LeBron and KD. It hasn’t worked for us. We have tried tanking. That hasn’t worked either. Winning an NBA championship is difficult. I would much rather ride with Rose on the treadmill with this team with only one player over 30 and 11 1st round picks over the next seven years, than see Rose fail and wait for the next regime, which I promise you would not be allowed to go on a multiyear tanking spree, to come along and start from scratch.
Woj:
More here: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/34697560/sources-investigation-found-boston-celtics-coach-ime-udoka-used-crude-language-dialogue-female-subordinate-prior-start-improper-relationship
The misery of being a Met fan during the Wilpon era, even with the 2015 WS appearance, makes this season, including the upcoming series with the Braves, all the sweeter. The misery of the Dolan era is much worse and should we ever even sniff a Conference final, that would be even more meaningful.
I wouldn’t take the under or the over. The line is just about right and it would just be a coin flip for me and it’s pointless to bet coin flips.
Not that I really bet anyway. In theory, I’d throw some money down on one of my teams if it seems like really easy money. This doesn’t qualify.
My complaint isn’t “the Knicks stink, they aren’t going to win more than 38.5 games this year.” My complaint is that the Knicks aren’t doing anything to build an actual contender.
We did sniff it, but Roy Hibbert swatted away the scent
Noble is not a pessimist. And frankly I can’t think of a single person on this board who is. (EDIT: I forgot about E; he is a pessimist.)
Some of us call a spade a spade, and some of us think the spade might be a magic bean that will grow into a beanstalk. Those are the camps.
Swifty, I would love this, too. But this isn’t what we have. We have worse than this. No one here is saying “title or bust”. Me, Noble, and the other alleged pessimists think Leon can’t build this. Not a title team. This.
I’m not a fan of Udoka and I’m sure he deserves the suspension, but I’ve got to say the using foul language part of it seems a stretch. I mean a sports coach using foul language is like the stereotype, not the outlier. I just can’t get worked up about it.
This chicanery’s list suggests that the most common way to a championship is to combine hiring a name free agent with a trade for a star. And of the two teams that drafted their top star , one did so in the middle of the first round. It’s not supporting tanking as the way to go.
“Some of us call a spade a spade, and some of us think the spade might be a magic bean that will grow into a beanstalk. Those are the camps.”
What a smug, condescending thing to say.
I think the Vegas number is pretty reasonable. I would lean towards the over for a number of reasons…Brunson, Hart, Thibs, a modest bounceback from Randle, DRose being healthy, some progress from RJ, Obi, Mitch and IQ. 40-45 wins seems about right.
Hubert, this level of patronization should be beneath you. You believe you’re right. It’s entirely possible you are. But we are not debating fascism or climate change or anything that actually matters. We are talking about the New York effing Knicks. There is zero need to talk about the people you disagree with like that, nor to place yourself in such a lofty position.
Getting Ja or Zion instead of RJ would have been quite unifying this board. It was really a huge blow to have that happen the only time we properly tanked.
I don’t think the current method will win us a championship. However, I do think it can make us legitimately good for a prolonged time.
I keep going back to the Utah model.
The Jazz are consistently good to great. In the last 21 years (the millenium as an arbitrary cutoff, I suspect the Stockton-Malone era would show more success).
In that time period they’ve finished with less than 40 wins and below .500 ( 1 short season) only 4 times—2 below 30, one at 39, one at 38.
– They finished above 50 wins 7 times, and 1 that prorates to 50
– Another 5 season above 45 wins
There are ways to win without tanking.
You need to look at the examples that contradict your position, not just those that confirm it. It’s a common pitfall that I’m sure I also fall into, but necessary to acknowledge.
All these gopher balls from deGrom are concerning.
“I don’t look at it as championship or bust. Of course I would love that. But I LOVED the 90’s Knicks and they never won a chip. Give me a team that year in and year out wins most of its games, makes the playoffs and can win a round (or two even) and I’m happy. We’ve been so bad for so long just being a 45 to 50 win team four or five years in a row would be a victory for me.”
You’ll notice my question was not “how long does Leon Rose get to build a championship team?”
I am asking for two (2) consecutive 50 win seasons, which everyone tells me is woefully insufficient in the context of the Sixers.
deGrom not hitting his spots again. Command just not there.
“What I do want to know, mostly for the sake of all-important Knickerblogger accountability, is how long the Rose doves will give him.”
There is a whole spectrum of opinions on the board, not simply Leon doves and Leon hawks. I suppose you could say that there is a group that is already 100% out on Leon and then there are those who are not. But that second group is very varied in how they feel about this FO.
So why not frame the question something like this: Regardess of method, what do you think is a reasonable timetable to judge the success or failure of a FO who takes over one of the worst rosters and situations in the NBA to turn that team into a perennial winner? And where do you think Leon stands right now in relation to that timetable?
My answer would be something like 5 years, so long as an “all-in” move isn’t made. At the 2.5 year mark, I think substantial progress has been made by this FO in the right direction. (Had the Mitchell move been made at a price it would have taken to get the deal done, I would immediately have been out on this FO. ) For me, this year is all about finding out what we really have on this roster. I can’t accurately gauge where we are in the rebuilding continuum until I know who Julius, RJ, Brunson, IQ, Obi, Grimes, Mitch, Hart, and even Cam really are (we know who Rose and Fournier are.)
So I can’t confidently judge where they are on that 5-year timeline without knowing more. And that’s why I am pretty much in wait and see mode until opening day 2023 By then, we will know who we really have on our current roster, and we will have another draft and off-season under our belts.
The Braves don’t miss many mistakes…
Tylor Megill, reliable bullpen arm, is not a thing
Well, I guess he does reliably allow line drives
Megill throwing batting practice out there.
I hope the Mets starters can go 7 innings in the post season to avoid the garbage middle relief.
Is Vogelbach hurt? I don’t get that.
Buck, I love you man, but what the hell was Alvarez doing up there?
WTF did they trade for Vogelbach for? Alvarez tried to hit a 600 foot homer.
Quite an at bat by Naquin!
But alas. Time for Buck to face the media, I guess.
Bottom line is, if deGrom pitches like that, we’re dead ducks in the playoffs.
There’s nothing lofty, Alan, about being honest. We are where we are. There is not one legitimate reason to believe we’re in a good place or on the path to one.
And yet the people who know this are constantly excoriated by delusional folk who think we’re pessimistic to have a fair opinion.
What do you think the chances are, Alan, that this core of players becomes a consistent 50 win team? Would you even give it a nonzero chance? If I gave you 100,000-1 odds on this team winning 50 games twice before Leon gets fired, would you bet your Chevy Bolt on it?
Anyone who cant see this team is fucked for the foreseeable future is kidding themselves. Which is fine, if you want to do that. But what is smug and condescending is not calling the optimists delusional. It’s calling the realists pessimists.
There is nothing to be optimistic about. We are in a terrible position. To augur otherwise is insane. A bean is more likely to turn into a beanstalk than RJ Barrett and Julius Randle turning this into a 50 win team year in year out.
What do the optimists see as the realistic path for this team to become as good as the 90’s Knicks? Lay it out there, and let’s discuss how likely it is.
The terrible place of playing winning basketball over the last 154 games…
Prorated, we won 47 games a year ago. So yes, I’d absolutely take 100,000-to-1 odds. Don’t know if I’d bet a brand new car though…
The same person who said this less than a month ago about our situation:
…today says this:
Is this all about Grimes walking around in a boot? Beyond that, doesn’t seem that much has changed…
There is no contradiction in those quotes.
In the first one, I am expressing a willingness to embrace our low ceiling and enjoy a team that’s “competitive and entertaining.”
In the second, I am saying anyone who thinks we have more potential than that is crazy.
There is no 50 win core here. Just because I’m willing to accept a 45 win core doesn’t mean Leon’s doing well.
We’re 78-76 over the last 154 games. I guess that’s technically “winning basketball” but it’s nothing to write home about.
This team is not going to turn into the 90’s Knicks. It just isn’t, and we all know this. It’s not pessimistic to not believe something that is ridiculous.
https://nypost.com/2022/10/01/knicks-believe-point-guards-will-lessen-burden-on-julius-randle/
You know Thibs desperately wanted to win enough games at the end of last season for no benefit to the future of the Knicks so he could say that they had a winning record over the past two seasons. It was kind of hilarious how badly he wanted to be able to say that he had a winning record as the coach of the Knicks.
it’s late…not to be a wordy or anything, aren’t optimism and pessimism simply philosophical terms…
seriously…wtf with this spectrum of foresight on potential outcomes…
that’s just weird…or is it me that’s crazy…
Hubert, you’re smart enough to know everybody thinks they’re the realists, right?
If i were the Devil I’d hire Nfh as my advocate, hang out with Hubert and make sure the Knicks win the chip every god damn year!
I feel pretty good about this year’s team and wait patiently to support this very rootable motley crew!
Team Optimist as Hell!
To be the 90s Knicks we need only one star (Ewing) and very good role players. We already have the latter, and we’re well positioned to grab the former. What we can’t do is trade for 2 stars, and that’s why Donovan Mitchell wasn’t the right star for us. And Booker isn’t too. We need a 2-way star, i don’t know who that is yet, but if we can grab one you’ll see we’ll instantly be the 90s Knicks. We’re one move away. Of course, if the goal is championship or bust, then yeah, we’re in a bad position unless one of our young guys can become a Top25 player. But to be the 90s Knicks and be a borderline contender that can get there with some luck, we’re ok.
Geo, it was me that started these names, just to have a simple name to answer to people. It’s hard to come up with names, because when i said “team tank” and “team win trades”, there was people against those names too. I’m running out of ideas, maybe teams “plan is great”, “plan is ok”, “plan is a disaster”, “we have no plan”? 😀