Categories
Uncategorized

Knicks Morning News (2022.10.01)

  • Former UConn players currently in the NBA – CT Insider
    [www.ctinsider.com] — Saturday, October 1, 2022 7:11:22 AM

    Former UConn players currently in the NBA  CT Insider

  • “I got aroused” ? When Patrick Ewing testified in a strip club trial – Basketball Network
    [www.basketballnetwork.net] — Saturday, October 1, 2022 4:46:27 AM

    “I got aroused” ? When Patrick Ewing testified in a strip club trial  Basketball Network

  • “One of the misconceptions about me is that I have this attitude problem” – Latrell Sprewell opens up about his off-court personality – Basketball Network
    [www.basketballnetwork.net] — Saturday, October 1, 2022 4:44:02 AM

    “One of the misconceptions about me is that I have this attitude problem” – Latrell Sprewell opens up about his off-court personality  Basketball Network

  • Isaiah Hartenstein fits what Knicks are looking for on second unit – Newsday
    [www.newsday.com] — Saturday, October 1, 2022 2:37:50 AM

    Isaiah Hartenstein fits what Knicks are looking for on second unit  Newsday

  • Dinwiddie more than ready to step into the starting two-guard spot – The Official Home of the Dallas Mavericks – Mavs.com
    [www.mavs.com] — Friday, September 30, 2022 10:25:47 PM

    Dinwiddie more than ready to step into the starting two-guard spot – The Official Home of the Dallas Mavericks  Mavs.com

  • Who was Knicks’ Derrick Rose referring to with latest comments on 2021-2022 failures? – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Friday, September 30, 2022 8:00:00 PM

    Who was Knicks’ Derrick Rose referring to with latest comments on 2021-2022 failures?  Daily KnicksKnicks’ Derrick Rose Details How He Took Diet Inspiration from Tim Duncan  Sports IllustratedDerrick Rose subtly calls out Julius Randle, Knicks  ClutchPointsDerrick Rose Named The Key For The New York Knicks This Season: “I Think What This Year Is All About Is Accountability”  Fadeaway WorldSlimmed-down Derrick Rose answered Tom Thibodeau’s Knicks challenge  New York Post View Full Coverage on Google News

  • ESPN Analyst Bullish on Knicks, Hints at 45 Wins – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Friday, September 30, 2022 4:32:26 PM

    ESPN Analyst Bullish on Knicks, Hints at 45 Wins  Sports IllustratedNew York Knicks preseason 2022 schedule: How to watch all four games on TV, streaming  syracuse.comReport from Knicks Content Day 2022  Posting and ToastingObi Toppin gushes over Knicks teammate he’s excited to play with  ClutchPointsKnicks’ Obi Toppin looking to improve defense, jump shot  New York Post View Full Coverage on Google News

  • Memphis Grizzlies announce 2022-23 promotional schedule – NBA.com
    [www.nba.com] — Friday, September 30, 2022 2:30:00 PM

    Memphis Grizzlies announce 2022-23 promotional schedule  NBA.com

  • Knicks Preseason Profile: RJ Barrett Laden With Potential & Bigger Expectations – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Friday, September 30, 2022 11:40:02 AM

    Knicks Preseason Profile: RJ Barrett Laden With Potential & Bigger Expectations  Sports Illustrated

  • Goran Dragic reveals infamous Derrick Rose play from 2010 is his ‘nightmare’ – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Friday, September 30, 2022 10:00:00 AM

    Goran Dragic reveals infamous Derrick Rose play from 2010 is his ‘nightmare’  Daily Knicks

  • Ep. 170 Shock Jacques Knicks Podcast – Posting and Toasting
    [www.postingandtoasting.com] — Friday, September 30, 2022 9:00:00 AM

    Ep. 170 Shock Jacques Knicks Podcast  Posting and Toasting

  • 134 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2022.10.01)”

    Just now, i made some comments at the end of last thread, but i’m too lazy to go fetch it. It’s weekend and i’m about to go hiking, see you good people. 🙂

    Hubert, I am not on Team Optimist. I am profoundly skeptical of this administration, even if I am not quite as full of despair as you are. But your attitude about it is still condescending and obnoxious.

    It’s like when I would watch Aaron Sorkin’s The Newsroom, where I agreed with many of the points about politics and journalism, but felt embarrassed because the sanctimonious and self-satisfied way with which Sorkin was presenting those points.

    You can be right without being an asshole. It’s possible. I’ve seen it.

    Just to add, and then I’m done with this: someone disagreeing with you is not fundamentally an attack. Or, at least, it’s not on a subject as frivolous as this one. But when you phrase your arguments the way you do, it is as if you are responding to someone who is trying to hurt you, or like you’re trying to hurt somebody else. That kind of attitude — not just from you, but in the spirit of that comment you made yesterday — sets off fights and flame wars on here, and it sucks when that happens.

    (It for the most part didn’t happen this time because people were too busy being mad at the Mets to be mad at each other, but that was the exception and not the rule.)

    It’s always fun when someone is condescending towards you after you’ve stopped commenting for the day.

    If Hubert wants to take an arrogant and condescending attitude towards his belief that he’s right, that’s fine. He’ll just have to eat that much more crow when he’s wrong.

    I mean it’s so outrageous to believe a team that is full of players under 25, that was the 4th seed two seasons ago and won 38 games last year when everything went wrong, and has a coach who’s won coach of the year twice and has a winning career record, could actually be a consistent winner. So absurd!!!! Oh and that team has 11 first round picks over the next 7 seasons! No way that team could ever be good! Huber knows it all!

    God I can’t wait for the season to start to shut up all these haters. You’re going to look so stupid in a few months. Of course, then the goal posts will magically move!

    “There is no contradiction in those quotes.

    In the first one, I am expressing a willingness to embrace our low ceiling and enjoy a team that’s “competitive and entertaining.”

    In the second, I am saying anyone who thinks we have more potential than that is crazy.

    There is no 50 win core here. Just because I’m willing to accept a 45 win core doesn’t mean Leon’s doing well.”

    Sorry Hubert, they are actually as contradictory as it gets. In the first one you say that we have a team RIGHT NOW that will definitely win “in the upper 40’s.”

    That team has in it projected opening day rotation:
    -1 player with one year of experience who is challenging a vet for a starting role
    -2 players with two years of experience
    -1 starter aged 22 with 3 years of experience whose signing you referred to as a “savvy” move.
    -1 starter aged 24 with 4 years of experience who just got locked up on a reasonable deal
    -1 backup C aged 24 with 4 years of experience who might become the best backup C in the league locked up on a mosest 2yr deal.
    -1 starting PG with 4 years of experience locked up on a 4yr/104M deal who just recently dominated the FA in the playoffs who cost the Cavs a king’s ransom.
    -1 vet SG on a market-level deal with one guaranteed year beyond this one
    -1 vet PG who was our best player in our best stretch of basketball and first playoff appearance since the Melo days
    -1 vet PF who is one year removed from an all-NBA season and is healthy and a tireless worker who has expressed willingness to change his game to accommodate the new PG…on essentially the same deal as RJ and Brunson.

    This team also has in its asset arsenal:
    -11 likely first rounders in the next 7 years, including all of its own picks.
    -excess second rounders

    The team is coached by a 2X CoTY winner who YOU said this about:
    “I have given Thibs grief over his strategy and tactics but I have always given him credit for his player development skills. There’s no reason to think minutes = development. Each of the three kids I mentioned has an entrenched veteran they need to displace in order to earn playing time and make money. And they have a coach who invests time and wisdom in their improvement. They also have a very strong professional culture to work in and develop the right habits. It may frustrate us not to see them play more, but I think they are all in great position to develop.”

    So that’s the team YOU said is RIGHT NOW is an UPPER 40 WINS team. A team undisputedly constructed of mostly young talent, with a coach who YOU give credit to for his player development skills and who invests time and effort in their development.

    And yet you can’t envision a bridge from this point to a team that can win 50+ games in two consecutive years. You are literally saying that believing that is a distinct possibility is “insane” and “delusional.” That even with internal improvement of young players and expending our draft haul and a couple of young guys on an overpay for a second-tier star would not improve the team’s win total by 5-6 games a season.

    BTW, there’s a great irony here. I actually feel that it is INCREDIBLY optimistic to predict that this team as currently constructed will win in the high ’40s. That’s really the root of Hubert’s obvious inconsistency. The bridge from the Vegas number of 38-ish wins to a 50+ win team is a lot longer than from the high-40’s win team he described. Most of the folks in the negative camp are not seeing this current team as anything above a 41-42 win team. And guess what? I happen to be in that camp!

    Anyways, there’s NBA basketball being played between actual NBA teams (and one NBA team and Tel Aviv)!!

    – The GSW unsurprisingly beat our old friend Kristy Po-po.

    – The Clippers barely managed a 40pt win over Tel Aviv.

    – James Wiseman: 24min, 20pts, 8-11FGs, 9rebs

    – Johnny Davis: 22min, 4pts, 0-5 FGs, 4-4FTs, 3ast, 3stls, 2TOs

    – Ryan Rollins: 11 min, 8pts, 1-6 FGs, 6-6 FTs, 4rebs, 1 ast

    – Trevion Williams: 3 min, 3pts, 1-1 FGs, 1-1 FTs, 1 reb, 1 TO

    – Moses Moody: 26min, 5pts, 2-6 FGs, one 3pm, 1 reb, 2 asts, 5(!) PFs

    – Kuminga: 26min, 6pts, 1-4 FGs, 4-6 FTs, 1 reb, 3 ast, 4TOs

    Overall, some pretty bad shooting from the kids not named Wiseman. He played like a #2 pick. Ryan Rollins did a lot in 11mins.

    We almost certainly don’t have 11 first round picks. Of those picks Detroit’s is protected top 18, top 18, top 13, top 11, and top 9 and Washington’s is protected top 14, top 12, top 10, and top 8. Also, this front office has shown that they’re willing to trade first round picks for basically nothing so I’ll pretty much guarantee that we don’t make many of these first round picks.

    Also, I find it a bit disingenuous to count our own picks in that number. I really wish people would just say we have four additional first round picks over the next 7 years.

    I will also say that if this team does win 47-48 games, a LOT will have had to go right. No matter how you slice it, some of our assets will have had to dramatically increased in value. That, in turn, would open up possibilities that are not obvious today.

    Which is why I’m in “wait and see” mode until the end of next offseason. If Hubert’s gaudy win prediciton holds up in this super-competitive league, most everyone here would almost certainly be very happy regarding the reasons for it. It’s not going to be on the backs of Fournier and Rose. It would have to mean that Julius was resurgent, Brunson was really good, and that several of our young players made a leap. That would change the entire conversation.

    “We almost certainly don’t have 11 first round picks. Of those picks Detroit’s is protected top 18, top 18, top 13, top 11, and top 9 and Washington’s is protected top 14, top 12, top 10, and top 8. Also, this front office has shown that they’re willing to trade first round picks for basically nothing so I’ll pretty much guarantee that we don’t make many of these first round picks.”

    The DET picks and WAS picks are highly likely to convey at some point, unless their rebuilds are total failures. But if you want to say 9 first rounders in 7 years including all of our own, sure.

    As to whether we actually make those picks, again, sure. They’re still assets right now, whether they are made or traded.

    So, here’s a question: How much has Leon Rose actually improved this team? Obviously the year before we went 21-45 but was that an accurate record? That year we fired Fizdale after he went 4-18; Mike Miller took over and we went 17-27 the rest of the way and that includes the 15 games after we traded our best offensive player, Marcus Morris.

    That 17-27 record would be around 31-51 over a full season; we went 37-45 last year. So, two years later with improvements from several players already on the team, two lottery picks (oh wait, we traded one of those picks for nothing) and with 2x COTY Tom Thibodeau we can only win 6 more games? Three years later we’ve signed a $100M PG we’re hoping to win 10 more games? Leon Rose has been here 3 years now and has he built a team that’s significantly better than one that Steve Mills built? Or that Phil Jackson built (his best record was 31-51 in 2017)?

    (1) Detroit will be 7yrs into their process by the last year of 1st rd protection. I’ve been assured they will have multiple 50 win seasons by that point.

    (2) WAS sucks. I’d say most likely to convert to two 2nds. On the other hand, a healthy KP & Beal could have that pick convey this year.

    (3) Guys¡!¡! Actual basketball!!!

    As to whether we actually make those picks, again, sure. They’re still assets right now, whether they are made or traded.

    As the sage of the 21st pick in the 2021 draft has shown, no they’re not necessarily assets if they get traded.

    (1) This is an advanced stats blog. Can we agree to use advanced stats?

    (2) Our expected W-L record was 41-41. That’s 10 games better than the prorated half season sample. It’s 21 games better than the pre-Rose full season expected W-L record. Even your 6 games is a 20% improvement.

    (3) You’re conveniently missing a year where we made the playoffs for the 1st time in 8yrs

    I’m not conveniently leaving it out, at this point I’m basically considering it a fluke based on massive outlier career years from Randle and RJ, who are, by the way, two players that Rose had no hand in bringing in. But I’m perfectly happy using advanced stats, I’m certainly not the one who keeps on bringing up stuff like COTY awards.

    If I’m calculating it correctly, our expected W/L under Mike Miller prorated over a full season was 30-51 so right in line with my non-advanced calculation. And if 10 win improvements or 20% improvements are all we’re looking for then should we bring back Phil Jackson? Phil Jackson went from 17 wins to a high of 31 wins, an 82% improvement.

    A 10 win difference is a big difference in basketball… I don’t know what to tell you.

    Otherwise, there’s no real difference between us and a 50 win team. Congrats! We hit TNFH’s target!!! Rose is great!!!

    Our playoff appearance means nothing at this point. A first round exit can be a legitimate step on the path towards contention if the key players on the team are long-term assets, but that’s not the case for the 2021-2022 Knicks.

    The top 5 players on that team by VORP:

    1) Julius Randle–literally, a long term *liability*
    2) Nerlens Noel–gone
    3) Alec Burks–gone
    4) Derrick Rose–old as hell
    5) Reggie Bullock–gone

    That team has basically nothing to do with the current one. All it did was worsen our draft pick.

    I had fun that year too, but seeing it regularly get brought up as evidence of Leon’s brilliance is annoying. The goal of an NBA GM is not to make a first-round playoff appearance, and doing so can even be detrimental if you can’t build on it.

    Leon was unable to build on it, plain and simple. How much of that is due to the playoff team being luck-based in the first place as opposed to subsequent bad decisions is up for debate, but I don’t see how it can be disputed in general.

    “So, here’s a question: How much has Leon Rose actually improved this team?”

    Opinions on this can vary depending on your POV as to what constitutes improvement.

    If you want to argue that our record last year is not any better (and possibly worse) than it would have been under Mills, that’s fair.

    But what about roster construction? Draft pick status? Possibilities for improving the team as it is currently constructed?

    Our team when Leon took over had the following roster:
    Vets:
    Randle, Payton, Portis, Bullock, Taj, Ellington, Harkless
    Young players:
    RJ, Mitch, Frank, Dot, Iggy, DSJ, Knox, Trier

    I’ll leave it to you and others to argue about whether the current roster situation is a significant upgrade to what he inherited. Suffice it to say that I think it’s a dramatic improvement.

    They had all of their own firsts, plus the two DAL picks and a 2020 1st that eventually conveyed at #27 but was used in a trade that resulted in the #25 pick we used on IQ. But if you want to argue that the draft cache is roughly equivalent, sure. Just factor in that we have made 3 first round picks in 3 years and they all look to be legit NBA rotation players already with upside.

    Also, to say that he’s been here 3 years is both inaccurate (he was hired on March 2, 2020, making it 2.5 years by the calendar) and misleading (with the COVID shutdown factored in it’s really more like 2 years.) Rose did not make a single move until he hired Thibs in July 2020. He did not make a single transaction involving the roster until the 2020 draft that took place in November of that year due to COVID.

    It’s true that he’s on his third offseason, but we won’t know the results of his third one until this season plays out. If you want to say that some, even many, of the transactions of his first 2 offseasons were very Mills-like (especially the second one with extending Burks, Noel, Rose and Taj, signing Kemba, and signing Fournier to a long term deal that was judged by most to be an overpay) that’s totally fair. But most feel that the mistakes of the 2021 vet contracts were not repeated. As to not making a pick this year, they essentially traded the rights to make that pick to open up cap space to sign Brunson into cap space.

    So I think it’s a good question, but one that can’t be fully answered until this season plays out.

    Not every 10 win improvement is the same; I think it’s a lot harder to go from 40 wins to 50 wins than it is to go from 30 to 40.

    Oh good lord the optimists have their knickers in a knot. I don’t think it was smug or condescending at all, frankly, to point out that there is no logical foundation for Team Optimist. You guys are just wishful thinkers who get pissed off when objective reality enters the chat.

    “Not every 10 win improvement is the same; I think it’s a lot harder to go from 40 wins to 50 wins than it is to go from 30 to 40.”

    This is probably true, especially since by definition, the average team wins 41 games.

    But that’s not all that relevant to me. The question is, what is a team’s capacity for improvement, given the state of its roster, cap and draft pick stash?

    That’s where most of the divergence of outlook takes place between posters here. Some, like myself, think there are ample avenues to a 10-game improvement, via internal improvement, trades, draft picks, and FA signings. Others think we are likely stuck at this level for the foreseeable future.

    While I disagree on TNFH’s assessment of our prospects, at least he admits that there are possibilities. And I think he would admit that if this team as currently configured wins the 48 games or so that Hubert is predicting, that a bunch of good things would have had to happen, and he would have to recalibrate his assessment of the process and projection of future outcomes.

    Anyway, for me, the question isn’t whether we can build a 50+ win 2+ years in a row team. It’s whether we can do that without selling off every asset we have to further improve the team, i.e. a Donovan Mitchell-like move. I will continue to say that we can’t answer that question until we see what this team does in the next 6-8 months and what Leon does next offseason in response to that.

    someone disagreeing with you is not fundamentally an attack. Or, at least, it’s not on a subject as frivolous as this one. But when you phrase your arguments the way you do, it is as if you are responding to someone who is trying to hurt you, or like you’re trying to hurt somebody else.

    I’m sorry, Alan, but this is an affective fallacy. You’re reading me incorrectly if that’s what you see. At worst, I made a casual joke that didn’t land.

    Serious question, vincoug: what win total would it take this year for you to reconsider where you stand on this team’s prospects? Would Hubert’s high-40’s do it? Same questions to TNFH, E, etc. (Hubert, no need to bother, you’ve already definitively stated that the bridge from 48 to 50+ wins doesn’t exist except in the minds of the insane and delusional.)

    Oh TNFH, never mind, you had already stated that anything between 30-42 wins would be a disaster and so by implication, 47-48 wins would require recalibration. Is that correct?

    He’ll just have to eat that much more crow when he’s wrong.

    When has anyone ever been wrong about believing the Knicks aren’t in good shape?

    Our playoff appearance means nothing at this point. A first round exit can be a legitimate step on the path towards contention if the key players on the team are long-term assets, but that’s not the case for the 2021-2022 Knicks.

    A playoff appearance means we made the playoffs. Things can be an end in themselves.

    The goal of an NBA GM is not to make a first-round playoff appearance, and doing so can even be detrimental if you can’t build on it.

    Making the playoffs is a legitimate goal for a GM to have.

    Not every 10 win improvement is the same; I think it’s a lot harder to go from 40 wins to 50 wins than it is to go from 30 to 40.

    Certainly, so how are we supposed to characterize wins. Is 6 more wins a large improvement? Is the difference between a 30 and 40 win team significant?

    We should decide on what good cutoffs are for win improvements.

    For instance, last year we went 41-31, with the same expected record. Pro-rated over 82 games that’s 46.69 wins.

    The difference between the last 2 years was less than 6 expected wins.

    So why is one year looked upon favorably and one disfavorably? 6 wins must be significant in at least some contexts.

    What’s the discount between 31 and 41? I don’t have a good method to calculate that (or at least the time to want to find one).

    We have a LOT of money tied up in the Julius Randle/Jalen Brunson/RJ Barrett core. For quite a long time. That doesn’t seem like the core of a perennially contending team to me. That seems like a core with a pretty hard ceiling on it.

    “BTW, there’s a great irony here. I actually feel that it is INCREDIBLY optimistic to predict that this team as currently constructed will win in the high ’40s. That’s really the root of Hubert’s obvious inconsistency. The bridge from the Vegas number of 38-ish wins to a 50+ win team is a lot longer than from the high-40’s win team he described. Most of the folks in the negative camp are not seeing this current team as anything above a 41-42 win team. And guess what? I happen to be in that camp!”

    *****************************

    “Fundamentally agreeing with the substance of something yet continuing to whine about the tone in which the person with whom you agree expresses the substance with which you agree” really isn’t a definition of “irony.”

    It does, however, define another word.

    I’m interested to see how rhe East plays out this year. A number of questions I have:

    – How does the Dejounte/Tre experiment workout?

    – Can DMitch improve his defense with less of an offensive burden?

    – Does Hali’s defense look better now that he’s off the Kings?

    – Can Cade make a jump this year and have DET surprise people?

    – Do we see any of the Nets big 3 play more than 55 games?

    Yeah, 48 wins would almost definitely mean a number of factors important to our long-term outlook swung in our favor. So I would be higher on our long-term outlook than I am now if it were to happen.

    My continued hang up with the team as it stands now is the combination of it needing tons and tons of improvement to approach even fringe contender status, and its relative inability to make major improvements via the draft and free agency. 48 wins would at least address the first part, barring a weird 2020-2021 smoke-and-mirrors situation.

    Relatedly, here are some individual things that could change the calculus to some extent. Obviously they’d almost all have to happen to get to a 100th percentile outcome like 48 wins:

    -RJ takes a major leap such that “is he even good” is no longer a question

    -Brunson doesn’t miss a beat efficiency-wise while adding extra usage (he’d pretty much just have to match his non-Luka numbers from the past few years)

    -Obi plays 24+ minutes per game while maintaining, or improving, his 2021-2022 numbers

    -IQ proves he can be productive in both on and off ball roles, which would likely require him improving both his frequency and efficiency at the rim

    -Grimes breaks out of the 3-and-D mold to some extent

    -Mitch stays healthy, shows moderate improvement in some areas (e.g. FT%), and anchors a strong defense

    -Hartenstein proves to be the diamond in the rough the numbers say he is in 20+ MPG

    -We’re able to trade Randle without attaching sweetener (I see no way he’s a true long-term piece for us)

    -Rose and Fournier are healthy and productive enough for us to get some assets for them, and the young guys are good enough to take their minutes without us getting worse

    I’m going to make 4 predictions:

    (1) The Celtics fall off. Udoka is gone, Timelord is injured, and Horford plays poorly.

    (2) Atlanta’s Tre/Dejounte experiment implodes.

    (3) The Wizards end up in the play-in.

    (4) Detroit wins 36 games, give or take 3. Their current O/U is 29.5.

    “A playoff appearance means we made the playoffs. Things can be an end in themselves.”

    “Making the playoffs is a legitimate goal for a GM to have.”

    Strong fundamental disagreement on this one. 20/30 teams “make the playoffs.”

    It’s one thing to think something short of an inner circle contender is a worthwhile end, but if an NBA GM really views a first-round bouncing that way they should resign.

    Certainly, so how are we supposed to characterize wins. Is 6 more wins a large improvement? Is the difference between a 30 and 40 win team significant?

    You’re getting caught up in net win improvement which I don’t really care about. Like I said before, not every 10 win improvement is equal and going from 30 wins to 40 wins is a lot easier than going from 40 to 50 or 50 to 60.

    Serious question, vincoug: what win total would it take this year for you to reconsider where you stand on this team’s prospects?

    High 40s but without multiple players having massive outlier shooting numbers.

    We have a LOT of money tied up in the Julius Randle/Jalen Brunson/RJ Barrett core. For quite a long time. That doesn’t seem like the core of a perennially contending team to me. That seems like a core with a pretty hard ceiling on it.

    Yuuuuuuup

    I think the biggest factors in our success this season are:

    (1) How many games does Rose play? Arguably our best player the last 2yrs when healthy. 50ish games should boost our win total substantially.

    (2) Randle & RJ getting to at least .530 TS%. They’re bad, but they’re not .510 TS% bad (idk, maybe RJ is)

    (3) How good is the defense with Grimes a healthy Mitch, and minus 1000 minutes from Kemba?

    (4) How much do we miss Burks? I think a lot.

    (5) Brunson.

    Oh, and let me throw it back at you. What win total would it take this year for you to reconsider where you stand on this team’s prospects?

    BTW, there’s a great irony here. I actually feel that it is INCREDIBLY optimistic to predict that this team as currently constructed will win in the high ’40s. That’s really the root of Hubert’s obvious inconsistency. The bridge from the Vegas number of 38-ish wins to a 50+ win team is a lot longer than from the high-40’s win team he described. Most of the folks in the negative camp are not seeing this current team as anything above a 41-42 win team. And guess what? I happen to be in that camp!

    There is no irony here at all. No logical inconsistency, either. None.

    I believe Leon has built a team that can effectively grind out regular season wins at around the 42-45 win pace. Therefore I am optimistic compared to expectations for this season. I think we’ll win 44 and grab the 7 seed.

    But that’s not a great plan! Those kinds of teams tend to get stuck and stay stuck. The objective reality is that it’s going to take something extremely unlikely for us to move beyond this position. And no, this isn’t what the 90’s Knicks were. They weren’t consistently on the playoff bubble. This is the 90’s New Jersey Nets.

    Well that also depends on how you want to characterize it.

    – 20/30 teams make the play-in or playoffs

    – 16/30 teams make the playoffs (we made the actual playoffs that year…)

    – 8/30 get home court advantage

    Sometimes you lose in the 1st round. But only 8 teams make it beyond the 1st round.

    Is ~47 prorated wins a good season or not?

    And for the record I never said upper 40s like Z-Man is claiming. I said 44-45. For a guy who seems to have all my posts bookmarked, I would think he’d know that.

    The number of wins this year is essentially irrelevant to their prospects to be an actual contender. If they move Randle (*), RJ progresses to a 1A-ish type of player, and Quickley moves into something like a The Athletic Tier 3/4 kind of guy (**), things might get interesting.

    None of this has anything to do with where exactly they fall win-wise within the non-contender band in which they find themselves. They need star players, they don’t have one or anything close, and they insist on winning too many games to get ping pong balls. That isn’t a path to contention.

    (*) For ease of reference, Brunson is a Tier 4.

    (**) As I’ve written, even with the hoots and hollers of the Tone Police at full effect during the fluke Covid season, there is no path to contention with Julius Randle in anything but a supporting role — a role he has no interest in.

    You’re getting caught up in net win improvement which I don’t really care about. Like I said before, not every 10 win improvement is equal and going from 30 wins to 40 wins is a lot easier than going from 40 to 50 or 50 to 60.

    I do address this. I ask what discounted win rate is acceptable improvement between 30 and 40 wins.

    I also specify that 6 wins matter in some contexts. Bolded here because the italics didn’t stand out enough apparently.

    What are those contexts? How much more is a marginal win above 30? 35? 40? 45?

    The number of wins this year is essentially irrelevant to their prospects to be an actual contender.

    Precisely. (Unless, of course, they win 55 games or something.)

    I believe this team can win 44 NBA games this season before being unceremoniously bounced from the playoffs.

    That doesn’t make me optimistic about our future.

    Those two beliefs coexist easily without contradiction.

    Let’s put it this way, I don’t care at all for any improvements between 30 and 40 wins. I don’t think there’s any meaningful difference between those win totals except for how it affects lottery odds.

    FWIW, I think Z-man’s “irony” remark was about himself, not Hubert. But I could be wrong.

    My useless Knicks prediction is 42-40. A winning record!

    “We have a LOT of money tied up in the Julius Randle/Jalen Brunson/RJ Barrett core. For quite a long time. That doesn’t seem like the core of a perennially contending team to me. That seems like a core with a pretty hard ceiling on it.”

    You do realize that you are talking about less than half of the salary cap in a couple of years, and probably less than 40% of the luxury tax floor. Meaning that we could sign a $50 mill AAV player and still have some room to maneuver. Not to mention the mid-level and stuff like that.

    And that’s assuming that we keep all three of those players. Considering that they were actively exploring trades involving both Randle and RJ this offseason, that’s hardly a given.

    this is a wag the dog post but imagine a bomb made of melatonin. ramona shelbourne reported recently that the suns might sell for more than $3b. one interesting thing about that is you personally can purchase a share in the new york knicks at a enterprise valuation of only $3.47b. and for that low-low price you not only get the knicks but also the rangers. the most recent forbes/sportico valuation estimates put the knicks at $6b and the rangers at $2b. and if the suns really did sell for $3b, the $6b would presumably increase. then again, these estimates are not really about discounting the value of future profits; they are about guessing the price a control buyer would pay. on the one hand, buying the knicks and rangers for $3.5b in a world where the suns sell for $3b is a huge discount. on the other hand, you don’t actually get to enjoy the trophy value implied in the comp valuations as minority owner, although i’m sure hubert has a story about getting into a rave by showing his msgs stock certificate.

    if you ignore the $65mm sales from the rangers 10 home playoff games, the knicks and rangers generated $760 million of revenue this past year. again excluding the NYR playoffs, economic operating income was about $80 million (plus ~$35mm for the rangers playoffs). although disclosure is imperfect, we vaguely know the revenue breakdown is something like $500mm (nyk) / $300mm between the two teams. the operating income breakdown ex playoffs is difficult to estimate, but maybe it’s something like $50m knicks $30m rangers. the knicks did get $10mm in luxury tax inflows this past year and made lower revenue sharing payments than the rangers, so it may be tilted a bit more to the knicks here. (you might note that all third party estimates for the knicks and rangers individually are well higher than this, probably because they include revenue streams that are no longer part of the entity that owns the teams, like arena* and MSG network revenue).

    analysts project next year’s operating income to be only modestly higher; morgan stanley e.g. is at ~$84mm, so this isn’t some covid-depressed number. even for fantastic businesses like the knicks and rangers, this is a lofty valuation — about 41X ebit at current prices and 95X ebit at the magazine valuations. a part of these huge multiples can be explained by reliability and hidden pricing power — the new tv deal in 25-26 could add over $100mm per team in national broadcast revenue, though roughly half of that would go to the players — but not all.

    one of the many fortunate things about james dolan’s life is that it is possible to get all the trophy value without investing all the billions. the dolan family as a whole only has about 21% economic ownership of the teams — it is predominantly owned by the public — and he is just one member of a large gaggle of dolans. but supervoting stocks means they have 71% say whether charles oakley gets forcibly removed from the garden and what not, and they act as group. the silver lining is that this does provide one of the few liquid markets in which you can actually bet on your dream of dolan getting sarver’d.

    *the knicks pay $22.5mm a year with 3% annual increases through 2055 to MSGE to use the garden; the rangers pay $16.7mm.

    They won’t measure “step forward” properly, and that remains the fundamental problem with this organization.

    “Hubert IV says:
    October 1, 2022 at 12:19
    And for the record I never said upper 40s like Z-Man is claiming. I said 44-45. For a guy who seems to have all my posts bookmarked, I would think he’d know that.”

    Here is your verbatim quote from Sept 5:

    “I haven’t ventured to guess yet but on the day the prediction thread comes out I’m definitely going to be in the upper 40’s.”

    Fair enough. But I’ve said many times since then that I predict 44 wins.

    And Hubert, on a personal level, I know you’ve been through a couple of traumatic events, and I truly wish you well in recovering from them. I really don’t take any pessimism about the Knicks personally.

    My only point in bringing up your past post was to contrast it with yesterday’s outburst. You seem to ally yourself with TNFH hand over fist, and yet even he believes that a win total in the upper 40’s would change the calculus regarding this team’s potential. So you should do one of two things: revise your prediction downward to something like 41-42 wins, or revise your outlook on the potential to build a 50+ win team from a starting point of the upper 40’s. Otherwise, there’s a clear contradiction you can’t spin your way out of.

    “There is no 50 win core here. Just because I’m willing to accept a 45 win core doesn’t mean Leon’s doing well.”

    I can’t believe someone who is clearly off his meds has hijacked two threads to have a 5-win swing discussion as framed around “optimism” versus “pessimism.” Can’t we argue about potential rotations instead? Do we know what starters Thibs is running in practice yet?

    This season is going to be crazy. There are lots of team which are presumably contenders but all of them have serious flaws. If there is a season where having a steady and deep team that fights every game can get you far, it is this one.

    I appreciate it but I don’t think yesterday was an outburst at all. I think you and Alan just misread me.

    My only point in bringing up your past post was to contrast it with yesterday’s outburst. You seem to ally yourself with TNFH hand over fist, and yet even he believes that a win total in the upper 40’s would change the calculus regarding this team’s potential. So you should do one of two things: revise your prediction downward to something like 41-42 wins, or revise your outlook on the potential to build a 50+ win team from a starting point of the upper 40’s. Otherwise, there’s a clear contradiction you can’t spin your way out of.

    This isn’t logical bc it’s built on the foundation that I am slavishly bound to a comment I made on Sept 5th that I don’t even remember making.

    I think this team will win 44 games, be the 7 seed, and be bounced from the playoffs unceremoniously. That is perfectly in line with and not contradictory to my belief that Leon has no plan other than to wait and wish.

    And ess-dog, there is a gulf between a team with a 45 win ceiling and a team that perennially wins 50 or more games.

    “Can’t we argue about potential rotations instead?”

    how about we take turns guessing at what the “crude” language was that got Udoka banned…or what other adjectives could be used to make it seem more benign so that some other team can hire this dirtbag in a few months once their season starts to spiral (jimmy d come on down)…

    I predict this team that’s made up of 90 percent players under the age of 25 will win 45 games! But I also believe this team made up of 90 percent players under the age of 25, this team that has a ton of draft picks, can make trades and add players though agency, can never ever get any better than 45 wins bc I believe that not a single one of our players under the age of 25 can get better.

    And people think I’m the unrealistic one.

    “these estimates are not really about discounting the value of future profits; they are about guessing the price a control buyer would pay.”

    there has been much debate about control premiums in the valuation community..in theory…one pays for control based on some enhanced economic value gained by having “control”…with a public company…assuming there is no shennanigans with the OpEx, i.e., mgmt contracts to related parties at inflated prices, etc….there doesn’t seem to be much there to suggest at 6 billion you are going to get the requisite return…maybe it is just ego and being able to send of Oakman when you want

    “about 41X ebit at current prices and 95X ebit at the magazine valuations.”

    This is even more disturbing because EBIT and EBITDA are almost equivalent and I can’t recall seeing too many people lining up to by an asset at the multiple…the daily volume looks miniscule so perhaps it is so thinly traded it is a bad proxy…not sure…

    Hubert, you didn’t make your upper-40’s wins prediction in a vacuum, it was a detailed post indicating why you felt that way. I suggest you go back to yesterday’s thread and read your own words from Sept 5 carefully. Honestly, it could have come from swifty or deefense it was so rosy.

    And you can go right on thinking that calling out folks who think differently than you about this team are “delusional” and “insane” is anything but, in Alan’s words, being an asshole. I don’t recall Alan ever using that word to describe anyone’s posting, until now. If that’s not a wake-up call, I don’t know what is.

    imagine a bomb made of melatonin.

    so is the melantonin related to the discussion reference pessimism vs optimism and a 5 win variation…or, is the melatonin referencing the whole valuation discussion…

    can’t we all just discuss TV, music, food and drugs…

    dang, forgot about the whole basketball discussion site thing…okay, okay…

    what then is the value of…

    queue soul to soul’s keep on movin’

    made it to the season 1 finale of Mr Robot…

    I don’t remember where exactly, but I do remember hearing praise for rami malek’s performance…

    wow, for a slender fellow, that son of gun carries a whole lot of weight on that show…

    really glad to catch his performance, low budget feel at times to the show, and, every time christian slater shows up on screen I can pretty much say bye to any immersion built up while he wasn’t on screen…

    but yeah, I like shows dealing with mental health…and rami malek’s performance is truly noteworthy…

    @Geo…any thoughts on Andor?

    Watched first 2 episodes last night…so far…pretty good…

    wait pepper, are you telling us you have strayed off your destined sausage making path of your forebearers…

    cooking anything good this weekend…did steak and mashed potatoes last night…need to stay away from anymore red meat for a while…

    kinda got my mind set on a pepperoni pizza and some wings for later today…

    some how, some way, gotta slip a salad in to the day…

    oh…i still eat plenty of it…just not making it myself…

    curious if KBA liked the Southside Market stuff…never heard back from him…

    i might make some orechiette with turkey sausage and broccoli rabe tomorrow (my wife is also anti-red meat…not sure how we ended up together)….

    pepperoni sounds good…I have been going the square pie route lately…a good place opened up by my office…i think its called pizza punks or something..they play rock n roll all the time..you can see why that might attract me..

    haven’t done andor yet, my expectations are cautiously optimistic (much the same as the rest of life)…

    didn’t dig the bobba fett thing, mandalorian disappointed…wasn’t able to really get in to The Bad Bunch, that surprised me…

    animation wise I’ve watched What If and The Boys Presents: Diabolical fairly recently, so it was an animation issue…

    I did enjoy the heck out of Obi Wan…the scenes with him and ananakin were crazy satisfying…

    I think for the next while I’m gonna enjoy watching rami work…it’s a truly remarkable performance…after that catch up on game of thrones…

    then probably binge rings of power and andor…

    if you are so inclined and with a little extra time, a really fun take on mental health challenges, also on Amazon, The Tick…

    for sure on the background vibe, actually found a dispensary close by that doesn’t blast hip hop…nothing wrong with hip hop, just not when I’m shopping..huh, can only remember hearing metal in like a smoke shop or something…good for working out, hard for me to focus though…

    I like eating at spots where the noise of the patrons all blend together, don’t usually like background music or monitor screens…

    just the hum of dining ware and people…

    Celebrating Oktoberfest at Soul Brewery in Pleasantville…steins, brats, pretzels, polka music, and my lovely wife…so much fun!

    okay, two of the most “exhilarating” dining experiences which to come to mind:

    visiting them “tents” at the oktoberfest and watching thousands of people drink, eat and enjoy themselves…i think i went there alone, a bit of a train ride, but it felt amazing inside those tents…

    the other was eating in washington hall at school…it was amazing to see the efficiency in which everything happened there…also got to be there for a couple of the old school food flying everywhere fights…i can still remember exactly where i was sitting on each occasion…

    shepherd’s beef pot pie the first time – that looked really weird flying around, it left a trail in the air…the second time i was on staff and could only smile and enjoy…

    What’s funny is that here I am often lumped in with Team Optimist (which I have been in seasons past but am not really now), and on Twitter (where I’m often replying to Macri and the beat writers), Knicks Twitter thinks I’m more negative than Noble and others come across here.

    I was more resistant to the idea than many because I do think Cole is suffering from some bad luck and track record beyond this season matters, but not starting Nestor in game 1 is starting to look indefensible.

    “but not starting Nestor in game 1 is starting to look indefensible.’

    boonie doesn’t have the cojones to do that…but agree…he should be the guy…

    “if you are so inclined and with a little extra time, a really fun take on mental health challenges, also on Amazon, The Tick…”

    i was really into it about two yrs ago…I think I trailed off in Season 2 or 3…can’t remember…might have to rekindle it..

    I just finished Season 1 of Pennyworth…the Alfred the Butler origin story..good stuff…

    Also…LOTR last night was best episode yet…

    what do you want…

    made me think of the wedding scene in deer hunter where that random army sergeant shows up drinking at the bar…they try to engage, and all he would say was fuck it

    i love that so much…

    i think all that sergeant really wanted wanted was to be at peace, not be fighting…

    sorry pepper, The Tick didn’t get renewed past season 2…

    i think it was the talking boat that took some people just a bit too far…or, maybe it was the giant naked guy walking around…

    the dancing was superb, that is for sure…

    Legion is mental health stuff while on acid…it’s pretty engaging…

    legion is the prelude to the age of apocalypse…

    Hubert, you didn’t make your upper-40’s wins prediction in a vacuum,

    You’re absolutely right. I made it very clear that I was going out of my way to detail the best case scenario I could reasonably conceive. To suggest otherwise is insincere and disingenuous. What do you call someone who is insincere and disingenuous on the internet? I forget.

    I suggest you go back to yesterday’s thread and read your own words from Sept 5 carefully. Honestly, it could have come from swifty or deefense it was so rosy.

    Yeah, no. I laid out the most reasonably optimistic case I could imagine, and it was: I think we can be mildly competitive for two years while we wait for Leon’s mistakes to roll off, and then *maybe* we can get lucky in 2024.

    And finally, my words before and after Sept 5 count, too, you know?

    I don’t recall Alan ever using that word to describe anyone’s posting, until now. If that’s not a wake-up call, I don’t know what is.

    Well then you weren’t paying attention to all the times he referenced Raylen Givens while thinly veiling his assertion that djphan is an asshole.

    I get it, you and Alan see eye to eye. It was also you and Alan – and no one else – who took a benign comment about magic beans and turned it into something it never was.

    Every single poster on this board knows we have no evidence to suggest Leon Rose can do this job effectively. If you think he can, you’re just being wishful.

    Citing the ages of the mediocre players he’s acquired (players who likely top out as 6th or 7th men),or citing or the number of heavily protected first round picks that no one in the NBA values… these are not reasonable arguments that Leon has us on the right path. Or any path.

    The magic bean analogy was not smug or condescending at all. It is actually Leon’s plan.

    The magic bean analogy was not smug or condescending at all.

    ************************

    The pearl-clutching precipitated by this milquetoast remark about the two “camps” has officially become ridiculous.

    Here’s a pointer for those who know who they are: If you feel the urge to tone police the other ADULTS who populate this board, feel free to suppress it. It is neither necessary nor invited.

    We get to say the things we want to say about the team and the FO and the players and the association, in the way we want to say them, using the frames and premises we want to use. Kind of repetitious at this point, but it still hasn’t sunk in. I’ll stay on Team Optimism that it finally will.

    there has been much debate about control premiums in the valuation community..in theory…one pays for control based on some enhanced economic value gained by having “control”…with a public company…assuming there is no shennanigans with the OpEx, i.e., mgmt contracts to related parties at inflated prices, etc….there doesn’t seem to be much there to suggest at 6 billion you are going to get the requisite return…maybe it is just ego and being able to send of Oakman when you want

    I don’t think prices reflect current valuations. They reflect a combination of scarcity and the ability to manipulate future cash flows. As an owner you buy the ability to ciphon funds from local municipalities and the option to change the terms of your deal at any time by locking out your employees.

    The pearl-clutching precipitated by this milquetoast remark about the two “camps” has officially become ridiculous.

    It really has. I’m sorry, Alan, but your interpretation of what I said was determined by your personal feelings. “Team Optimism” has had two years to make a case and all they’ve come up with is “maybe our young players will get exponentially better than anyone thinks is reasonable.”

    I actually thought the magic bean line was kind of funny, but it was also, in fact, smug and condescending.

    Smug because Hubie is undeniably right and others are undeniably wrong, when perhaps that’s true, but it’s absolutely possible he’s wrong, too. Absolutely possible.

    Condescending because he draws a parallel between other people’s (well-formed) opinions (that differ from his) and magic — they’re not just mistaken, they’re actually mad as hatters.

    “We get to say the things we want to say about the team and the FO and the players and the association, in the way we want to say them, using the frames and premises we want to use.”

    Yeah, E, that’s right. What crosses the line is insults and accusations directed toward other posters. That’s different from what you say above. It ain’t pearl-clutching to be offended when someone is actually trying to offend.

    On the other hand, it’d be nice to see people laugh off magic beans and the like as a minor league version of eat bleach. Some people just can’t help themselves. The adults in the room could just move on.

    1. I don’t think I was condescending. If I were condescending I would have talked about how Swifty sounds like Linus talking about the Great Pumpkin, telling us all we’ll be sorry when he picks our pumpkin patch because it’s the most sincerest in the land. That’s condescending.

    2. I think we should be a little smug about arguments that are not based in fact or evidence, since that was kinda the whole point of this board. Team Optimism is essentially excoriating anyone who doesn’t think a 3X standard deviation event is likely.

    1. I don’t think I was condescending. If I were condescending I would have talked about how Swifty sounds like Linus talking about the Great Pumpkin, telling us all we’ll be sorry when he picks our pumpkin patch because it’s the most sincerest in the land. That’s condescending.

    2. I think we should be a little smug about arguments that are not based in fact or evidence, since that was kinda the whole point of this board. Team Optimism is essentially excoriating anyone who doesn’t think a 3X standard deviation event is likely.

    “If I were condescending I would have talked about how Swifty sounds like Linus talking about the Great Pumpkin, telling us all we’ll be sorry when he picks our pumpkin patch because it’s the most sincerest in the land. That’s condescending.”

    Yup. Got it just right. What you failed to comprehend that you just did it again.

    Z–Man, I believe that’s a grade of “C-, missed the point,” am I right?

    I was right about the Knicks for years on end and I thought it yielded something of value. It didn’t. I had a misty crystal ball that was just slightly less misty than some other posters’. It didn’t give me anything at all. It didn’t matter, doesn’t matter. Even if I had bet my life’s savings on the under during the 2014-15 season, it merely would have expressed a willingness to make a risky bet on decent odds. It wouldn’t have meant anything, and it won’t have meant anything, either.

    Lots of things matter, but being right about the Knicks ain’t one of them. It’s fun to play MyGM mode on here, or was for me, and still is for some, but it really doesn’t matter much.

    We’re often just a more articulate version of SAS vs. whoever the fuck ESPN is pushing out in front of a camera these days.

    I think we should be a little smug about arguments that are not based in fact or evidence, since that was kinda the whole point of this board. Team Optimism is essentially excoriating anyone who doesn’t think a 3X standard deviation event is likely.

    So, on one hand you are not basing your arguments on facts or evidence, but then you talk about a “3 standard deviation” event. So, we have here the Schrödinger’s fan, who is talking on intuition and scientific evidence at the same time. And also, 45 wins is a good place to be, and the worst kind of treadmill, at the same time, too. And Julius Randle is the worst player in the league, and averagish by a number of metrics, at the same time, too.

    Hubert, you know, sometimes is hard to debate with you. It seems impossible to make an argument and that you dont feel offended somehow afterwards. I dont think anyone in the team optimism is trying to excoriate anyone, OTOH, you seem to be constantly lecturing the rest of the board about what they should think.

    he might still be trippin…sounded like the shroom inventory hasn’t been depleted yet…

    For the record, I have never considered myself on “Team Pessimist” because that implies a blanket disposition that I genuinely don’t believe I hold.

    I analyze every move, and the general direction of the team, as objectively as I can. I try to ask myself what I would think of moves and strategy if I was observing them as a neutral fan and apply that analysis.

    I’ve even been wrong on account of being too optimistic before! Pretty sure I got the last flight off Dennis Smith Jr. island, and I spilled more virtual ink about Allonzo Trier’s potential than anyone should’ve.

    All I can say is I promise to give credit to any Knicks front office I think deserves it, whether that’s in the context of an individual move or a larger strategy. Right now these guys just don’t inspire confidence overall, and I say that as someone who *has* credited a number of individual moves, sometimes arguing against others in doing so.

    To the people who think the only possible way one can be as Rose-critical as myself is if they’re predisposed to think that way, I think you need to listen to the analysis neutral, smart observers dish out about the Knicks. Howard Beck, Fred Katz, and plenty of others have all said the same things as me regarding a general aimlessness. I’ll change my tune when that changes, and I imagine they will too.

    So now — exactly how many centuries has the word and concept “Pollyanna” been part of the English language???

    I’m a big Rangers fan, too, and I’m not remotely pessimistic about their direction and haven’t been in like 20 years. They’ve built an actual contender after years of actual contention in the early and mid 2010s.

    For the record, I have never considered myself on “Team Pessimist”

    You know, many people dont like “Team Optimist” or “Team Pessimist”, because those terms indicate that you are off the true “realist” value, and are often flung here to be dismissive of the others’ position. (although some posters have taken those labels as own, to characterize their own way of thinking)

    “Z–Man, I believe that’s a grade of “C-, missed the point,” am I right?”

    Based on research, we moved to a standards-based grading system that, at least in theory, was entirely based on a student’s work product in comparison to a particular learning standard. We mostly used a 1-2-3-4 system, with a 3 representing “meeting standards.”

    Suffice it to say, KB’s standard for constructive dialog is not being met here, not by a long shot. Probably something like a 1+ or a 2-.

    Suffice it to say, KB’s standard for constructive dialog is not being met here, not by a long shot. Probably something like a 1+ or a 2-.

    ******************
    As the self-appointed chairman of the Tone Stasi, it’s pretty easy to see why you’d think that. Your definition of “constructive dialog” [sic] is “conversation framed as I want it framed over which I maintain ultimate control.” You have a real hangup about conversation between other adults that proceeds freely without you. It’s quite a sight to see. But I’m a bit of an inveterate people watcher.

    E, I have no idea who you are or what you do outside of this forum. I am just happy that I am not anything like who you come across as here at KB in any regard that really matters.

    If KB commentary doesn’t “really matter” — and you aren’t the first one to say that in the last couple days — then why does anyone give a shit who says what, just so long as it isn’t like a clear personal attack or racist language or somesuch?

    Several people here absolutely do not act is if it doesn’t matter.(*) In fact, that’s the essential problem.

    (*) The incessant carrying on about “smug” and “condescending” when they had a Knick fan poster banned for being a bit rough around the edges is rather rich indeed.

    ha, the conversation here sounds pretty darn similar to what it sounded like when mom, sis and me sat down for dinner, night after night…

    I see they got the mets/braves showing on fox right now…let’s go mets…

    What crosses the line is insults and accusations directed toward other posters. That’s different from what you say above. It ain’t pearl-clutching to be offended when someone is actually trying to offend.

    Yes, like when someone calls you out by name and says you’re smug and condescending.

    Sorry, but it’s absolute and undeniable here that Z-Man and Alan are the two who crossed the line, not me.

    “when they had a Knick fan poster banned for being a bit rough around the edges is rather rich indeed.”

    I assume that you are not talking about me here, as I have never had the power to ban anyone, nor have I ever called for anyone to be banned.

    Yet of all the folks who have posted here over the years, including many who I have had protracted battles with, I find you to be among the most tedious and least interesting.

    “Yes, like when someone calls you out by name and says you’re smug and condescending.”

    If you disagree with my opinion you are delusional and insane. But I’m not being smug or condescending.

    Okay.

    What’s funny is that here I am often lumped in with Team Optimist (which I have been in seasons past but am not really now), and on Twitter (where I’m often replying to Macri and the beat writers), Knicks Twitter thinks I’m more negative than Noble and others come across here.

    I think KB is generally more pessimistic than most Knicks fans, if only because we can point out the difference between high-usage, high-efficiency players and high-usage, terrible efficiency players.

    Point being that optimistic views on here are still pessimistic views compared to many, if not most, Knicks fans.

    I’m also curious how much of the perceived Twitter pessimism is due to views on RJ?

    Knicks Twitter adores RJ. KB, in large part, hates RJ or at least grades his ceiling at a pretty low level (see above). Even among us more optimistic posters, RJ is often pointed to as a significant detriment.

    Also, I thought Alan was pretty down on the Rose tenure overall.

    “Also, I thought Alan was pretty down on the Rose tenure overall.”

    *****************************

    He’s late to the party, but in any event as with with Z-Man, you can only be “down on the Rose tenure” if you do it on their timetable, and use terminology and reasoning of which they approve. The fact that the conversation essentially proceeded without them, outside their jurisdiction, is precisely what set them off and made them clearly cross the line.

    All the reasons one would be down on the Rose tenure have been in place almost from the start. Nothing has really materially changed since the day Rose took over.

    Man, the saddest thing from this thread isn’t the petulant “I’m rubber, you’re glue,” “No I’m not, you are” baby crap, it’s reading Jowles’ piece of Knicksian nihilism.

    You’re right, Jowles, in the grand scheme of things it doesn’t matter a whit, but one of the very best parts of visiting this site was reading the impassioned storms of thrashing logic that would fall from your keyboard.

    May your mojo return someday.

    I watched Mr. Robot over the pandemic. I thought the 1st season was brilliant, or at least very very good, but the later seasons disappointed me. I’m in the minority based on my FB post from 2yrs ago, so keep watching.

    Part of me thinks my attention span is shot. I don’t enjoy many of the slow burn shows like Mr. Robot or Breaking Bad. I thought the wire was good, not great.

    My weekly shows have been She-Hulk, Rick & Morty, and Little Demon. Plus the Harley Quinn show that recently ended.

    – She-Hulk is pretty standard Marvel fair, but entertaining enough. I expect to be let down by the ending which will likely feature too much superheroing.

    – Rick & Morty has been great so far this season. No notes.

    – Little Demon is the run of the mill animated comedy I thought it’d be, but firmly in my genre preference that I’ll continue watching it.

    – I enjoyed this Harley Quinn season, but found it much slower paced than the previous 2 seasons. I thought the pedal to the metal approach was it’s greatest strengths. The B plots were forgettable. The relationship hangups/drama was the right direction for this season, but got wrapped up too quickly at the end of each episode.

    ***Not enough Kiteman***

    Also been catching up on Atlanta. Still amazing. The anthology episodes aren’t too strong, or at least much less compelling than the top notch main story. The one exception was the foster parents episode.

    Anyway, that’s my TV update

    If you disagree with my opinion you are delusional and insane.

    Not even remotely representative of what I said, Z-Troll.

    If you want to make an evidence-based case that the Knicks are on a solid trajectory, be my guest.

    But you have never been able to do that, have you? All you have ever done is personally attack the people who state the uncomfortable facts. Give it up already.

    Well, Max was less effective than deGrom last night, not that the offense is doing much, either.

    Hubert, you know, sometimes is hard to debate with you. It seems impossible to make an argument and that you dont feel offended somehow afterwards.

    Dude, we’re having an argument about the perceived level of smugness in an innocent analogy.

    Just like we’ve had endless arguments over the definition of mediocre and whether or not the 19th pick was incinerated or just charred. I’m not the common denominator here.

    Z-Man’s interpretation of what I said and what I actually did say are two totally different things.

    You have a real hangup about conversation between other adults that proceeds freely without you. It’s quite a sight to see.

    Yup.

    So, how much will the Mets be offering Aaron Judge in the offseason, assuming the Yanks don’t lock him up quickly?
    🙂

    Let’s all calm down, take a deep breath, and recognize the horrible trauma going down in Indonesia, where 120 people have died at a soccer match. Our disagreements aren’t that big a deal, and hoped everyone here and their loved ones are safe tonight.

    “Z-Man’s interpretation of what I said and what I actually did say are two totally different things.”

    Anyone can go back and read what you actually said. You were very clear and direct, both yesterday and on September 5. No interpretation is necessary.

    Well said, ess-dog. I’m seeing reports up to 129 now. And, of course, dozens/hundreds dying daily in Ukraine due to the vanity of a “well-adjusted” psychopath.

    Nothing like watching your two aces give up a bunch of homers in the most critical games of the regular season…

    Anyone can go back and read what you actually said. You were very clear and direct, both yesterday and on September 5. No interpretation is necessary.

    Swallow a tide pod, you sick little troll.

    Through 1 preseason game the Grizzlies look like they might very well have run circles around other FOs again.

    – Kennedy Chandler: 29 min, 11pts, 4-6 FGs, 1-2 3pt, 4 rebs, 8 asts, 4(!) stls, 3 TOs

    – Jake Laravia: 25min, 13pts, 4-8 FGs, 2 rebs, 2 ast

    – Kenny Lofton Jr (no relation): 24min, 17 pts, 6-8 FGs, 4 rebs, 3 asts, 1stl 3TOs

    – Roddy: 22min, 18pts, 5-12FGs, 5rebs, 2 stls

    Vildoza played for the Bucks. In 5mins: 2 FTs, 1 reb, 1 ast, 1 stl, 1 TO. #OAKAAK

    “Swallow a tide pod, you sick little troll.”

    What Hubert really means is “Have a nice day, buddy!” You just need to interpret it correctly.

    “I’m not a troll I just ad hominem a lot.”

    sez the guy who just called a whole bunch of posters insane and delusional…

    At a family wedding tonight, talked to a cousin who is — or was — a rabid Nets fan. Said he misses rooting for the scrappy Atkinson team, clearly doesn’t like Kyrie or KD, and laments how I fun it is to root for the team now. Even if he thinks they could be really good this year with relative health.

    ***Said he misses rooting for the scrappy Atkinson team, clearly doesn’t like Kyrie or KD, and laments how I fun it is to root for the team now.***

    I think I know him. He’s the member of the cautiously pessimistic faction over at nickclaxtonblogger.nets. (Hopefully his groom’s toast isn’t too smug and stays only mildy condescending.)

    “Alan says:
    October 1, 2022 at 23:27
    At a family wedding tonight, talked to a cousin who is — or was — a rabid Nets fan. Said he misses rooting for the scrappy Atkinson team, clearly doesn’t like Kyrie or KD, and laments how I fun it is to root for the team now. Even if he thinks they could be really good this year with relative health.”

    On paper they seem like very legit contenders. It will be interesting to see how their season plays out….it could be anything from a chip to a dumpster fire.

    Oh, Donnie. I love how you said this:

    I don’t think they are even worth paying any attention to at all… You guys are all better off sticking to carblogger, tvlistwithalan, and LAzagats.net . As long as James Dolan owns this team, you are wasting your time.

    But I’m the one who’s smug.

    Trolls gonna troll.

    I’m sure I’d get scolded for being smug too if I held any strong opinions about the knicks outside of my general disgust of the time I used to spend caring about them. (And I still manage to get the occasional smack-down from ptmilo regardless)

    He has been on your shit a bit recently, between the Tesla and the npc remark. I’m kinda jealous: you’re getting pegged by milo and I’m just getting peppered by Z-Troll. I need to level up.

    He has been on your shit a bit recently, between the Tesla and the npc remark. I’m kinda jealous: you’re getting pegged by milo and I’m just getting peppered by Z-Troll. I need to level up.

    Being a team’s fan and not being optimist is like being a Christian and don’t believe in Heaven.
    What’s the point?

    ***Being a team’s fan and not being optimist is like being a Christian and don’t believe in Heaven.
    What’s the point?***

    Free wine?

    So if the optimists are insane and delusional and the pessimists are depressed and self destructive can we call KB an attention whore-fight club and carry on *peacefully*?

    Comments are closed.