2021-22 Game Thread: Knicks @ Raptors

I’m in love for the first time
Don’t you know it’s gonna last
It’s a love that lasts forever
It’s a love that had no past

yeah, i’m still stuck on a couple of days ago…one real nice thing from the movie – i never really paid that close attention to either Dig a Pony or I’ve got a Feeling (which i really enjoy a lot)…all time fave beatles tune though is still A Day in the Life…

noticed something weird as i was watching the rooftop performance again, towards the end some people on one of the other roofs yelled over and said hi, Paul said hello back in an odd manner, and then imitated a gunshot in the direction of John…kind of creepy…i imagine at that point they had probably run in to many security concerns with “fans”…

Alan
December 10, 2021 at 4:32 pm
@wojespn
ESPN reporting with @ZachLowe_NBA: Philadelphia’s trade conversations on Ben Simmons gathering momentum in recent days. More teams engaged, more two and three-way deal structure talks ongoing as 76ers try to land a Top 25 player for Simmons.

It seems like it’s far enough into the season that some teams are figuring out they aren’t as good as they hoped to be and now the trade market is opening up. It’s also almost the fifteenth, when many players become tradeable. I wouldn’t be surprised to see trades happening at the end of this week.

I don’t really want the Knicks to panic and do much, but I think they could be a third team that assists two other teams to make a big trade.

Let’s Go Knicks!

Please get Noel off this team

After enduring a full year of Plague I find Kemba’s exile to Siberia a bit confusing…

Could you have a worst start than Noel? Pathetic effort on both ends. Mitch time.

Fuck this team

We’re really missing Kemba’s rebounding prowess…

Watching Scottie Barnes play basketball makes me tempted to advocate for a mini tank

What else is on TV tonight?

Thank goodness I have to go to the wife’s work party. Contracting Covid has to be better than this.

So the Knicks have two rebounds total compared to the raptors nine

Everybody is still on the “let’s keep this team” camp?

I surrender. I’m turning it off.

I’m watching “My Stepmother is an Alien”.

The Knicks starters are extremely unathletic.

If you hadn’t watched any other Knicks games but this one you’d be really baffled how this team has won 12 games

Not watching but checked to box. Apparently we suck

Max: Burke is uncomfortable in his new role and we lost him as a spot up shooter,

Exactly. It was a nice try, but please give up, it’s not helping the starters and has messed up the 2nd unit.

Early Bird: Apparently we suck

“We suck” is not enough to describe what we’re witnessing.

I have to say, I don’t understand why we are this bad. I can see being around 0.500, but playing this badly two games in a row?

If last year was the 2013 style season where lots of things fell just right for the knicks, is this the 2014 season where the FO proves just how out of touch it is and lucky it was as it pursues winning short term by trading for Bargnani?

Like, is Kemba + Fournier looking all that different from Bargnani? Big difference is we didn’t give up any picks.

I miss Austin Rivers games.

d-mar: Cyber, we are gonna make a comeback but will run out of gas in the 4th quarter and lose by 10

Yeah, i’m not even comfortable enough to make my crazy predictions.

nice block

Clyde it is indeed noteworthy we are starting to percolate with Randle and RJ on the bench

latke: If last year was the 2013 style season where lots of things fell just right for the knicks, is this the 2014 season where the FO proves just how out of touch it is

So the next step is to hire a “franchise saviour” in Phil Jackson? 😀

cybersoze: Exactly. It was a nice try, but please give up, it’s not helping the starters and has messed up the 2nd unit.

  

This exactly and why I say start Deuce. Rose starting would do the same to the second unit. Deuce would screw up now and again but I’ll put good money we don’t go down 20 in the first quarter anymore.

Its nice having athleticism out there

The Knicks! Lmao!

and we’re back!

Keep the team! LOL

Do I have to go to my wife’s work party? I might catch Covid…

Jekyll and Hyde man.

Yeah, Obi is our best player I guess

i ditch social gatherings all the time raven…maybe your stomach doesn’t feel so well tonight, staying home might be for the best…

Randle dumb turnover, Barnes three. The man is unlucky…

thenoblefacehumper:
I want to fight whoever told Clyde about +/-

Lol!!

Sometimes I want to murder Randle

3 consecutive turnovers for our All-Star. Unbelievable.

I can’t stand Randle.

2 times a Raptor has gone the length of the court unimpeded.

The 90’s Knicks are embarrassed

vincoug:
I can’t stand Randle.

He missed the last three and didn’t even try to come back on defense on the Raptors dunk…

So the bench got us back to a tie at 36 and then the raptors out scored us 14 to 6 with most of the starters in

d-mar: Cyber, we are gonna make a comeback but will run out of gas in the 4th quarter and lose by 10

You were right, but it all happened in just one half. 😉

I feel like I’m on one of those spinning amusement park rides that leaves you disoriented and nauseous, and you wonder why the fuck people pay for that experience…

Noel finally giving us something

Those RJ long lefty layup bricks are horrendous

“The Knicks last lead… 2-nothing”

That was on Randle I hate to say it … he was the man furthest back when that RJ layup UFO went up and Noel was engaged trying to get an offensive rebound… Fournier also back .. neither recognized the sprinting near 7 footer

put the good players in

I think we should trade every starter

Rebounding is fundamental

Siakam trying to out Randle Randle

1) RJ’s finishing is probably prohibitive in terms of him ever becoming an all-star

2) Obi should go up strong there instead of trying the finesse stuff

I maintain that every starter should be traded

It’s really weird that we have to wonder what would happen if coach played our good players more than our bad ones.

i am going to pretend mitch was not blocked by svi try not ruin it for me

Just tuned in to see Mitch get rejected. Ummm, wha?

That was a weak call on toppin

Overtime tonight … I’d like to get the win and the over

OBI!

Nice end of the shot clock by IQ to get Obi that 3.

Yeah, “15 points! A career high!” What is this, 1994? Remember when Houston getting 30 points was a huge deal?

I don’t see us winning this game. The starters are about to come in and play the end of the fourth quarter and we don’t have the lead.

yeah Owen that’s bc I just bet my house on toronto

Nice Rose 1 on 3.

Obi is fucking fast for a big guy

Obi’s make things happen, he’s stil very raw, but the energy, the speed, the verticality, the cuts create space for the others… after a terrible start last year he’s growing into a real pace-changer…

That was a flagrant to me. Can’t hit a guy in the head like that.

Toppin LoL … keep shooting buddy !! He’ll get there

RJ should’ve checked in for Rose not Burks.

Brian Cronin:
Who needs to guard VanVleet?

It just doesn’t make
Much sense now does it

Aaaand, Toppin knows his homework for the summer: 500 threes a day…

Bad game for Quickley tonight.

Knicks desperately need a fucking Point Guard.

I don’t think Quickley has hit a big shot in a few weeks …

Obi’s free throw stroke is so pure, too bad he can’t make an open 3 to save his life

d-mar: Obi’s free throw stroke is so pure, too bad he can’t make an open 3 to save his life

He’ll get there. Didn’t check the stats, but FT shooting seems much improved.

I want to punch whoever was responsible for leaving FVV open in the face.

Just insane.

Barnes gonna be a star in this league

Nice way to draw that foul!

Pathetic…

Goddammit

Get a rebound for fucks sake

It was working until ….

Shitty rebounding is one of the main reasons we suck so bad

KB Apprentice: Okay, Tom. Draw it up.

The classic Julius fadeaway with 2 seconds on the clock?

Everybody afraid to shoot the fucking ball…

I like how they show the replay angle where you can’t tell at all.

I want to have a job at the replay center …

Stupid challenge

Oh ye of little faith!

That’s really a mockery of the challenge system, though.

Randle sucks

Come on, OT!

On the second to last possession Randle had Fournier free not once but twice and didn’t give him the ball…

thenoblefacehumper:
Totally cool with that Randle 3, but what the fuck was the possession before it?

TT: “So go down under the basket and run into whoever you see there. Maybe we’ll get a foul.”

thenoblefacehumper: Totally cool with that Randle 3, but what the fuck was the possession before it?

Yeah, Randle’s shot was a good play, it just didn’t went in.

That was a foul on Barrett.

Max:
On the second to last possession Randle had Fournier free not once but twice and didn’t give him the ball…

Yeah, saw that too. RJ did the same earlier I think.

On the plus side the Cronin jinx is undefeated.

Don’t panic, we’re only 2 games under .500.

🙂

Just as the Raptors, that are missing 4 rotation players including OG…

Murphy’s law. Anything that can wrong, will go wrong. On the verge of ignoring this team till they get their act together. Too frustrating to watch.

KJG:
Why do I feel like Taj is helpful in small ball lineups

Prolly because Taj would get every single rebound on offense and defense and half the loose balls. 😉

On the plus side the Cronin jinx is undefeated.

when you think about it, the whole season could qualify for the Cronin Jinx after his 56 win campaign.

Maybe we should have waited for Durant

I can’t watch Randle play anymore. It’s too painful. It’s worse than watching Melo. We will never ever win anything with him on the team. He’s the lowest IQ player on the court almost every night. All he does is hold the ball, wait for double teams or dribble into them, and then either take a terrible shot, force a tough pass, or turn the ball over. He’s the embodiment of everything that can be bad about basketball. He’s the anti-Stratomatic and this is the apocalypse.

Obi isn’t boring but yeah.

Siakim gave RJ a subtle hip check. Will be interesting to see what the 2 minute report says about it.

JK47: We’re locked in with this boring ass team for at least one more year

I’m trying to be positive, so it’s at most one more year of this.

Hubert:
It’s becoming increasingly clear that we need Elfriid Payton back.

If it’s because Randle’s missing him, I’d rather send him packing too…

This team totally miss chemistry,
the Thibs’ “originals” scapegoat everything on Kemba (2-5 after the change)
and now they’re using Fournier the same way, as a fucking excuse…

Fox (who just missed two clutch FTs), Turner, Sabonis, Simmons,
I’ll trade Randle straight up for one of them tomorrow…

Deeefense!!:
I can’t watch Randle play anymore. It’s too painful. It’s worse than watching Melo. We will never ever win anything with him on the team. He’s the lowest IQ player on the court almost every night. All he does is hold the ball, wait for double teams or dribble into them, and then either take a terrible shot, force a tough pass, or turn the ball over. He’s the embodiment of everything that can be bad about basketball.He’s the anti-Stratomatic and this is the apocalypse.

I heartily agree, except the apocalypse part…. 🙂

d-mar: Sad text from my son: “I’m starting to check out Tankathon”

I already did it this week. 😛

Drafting Kendall Brown will make up for this surely

We’re locked in with this boring ass team for at least one more year

No way, Burks can get you, like, a lottery pick and three seconds and Rose can probably get you two top five picks. They’re not locked in with these guys at all.

At the end of last season, we talked a lot about how their surprisingly good performance in 2020-21 was a dangerous place for any GM to be in. Even a good one would have been tempted to stick with the 2020-21 team and hope they could add someone in 2023. I think a better GM would have ignored the temptation, but the temptation is incredibly strong. Blowing up a #4 seed when you can bring basically everyone back for mid-level deals is a tough thing to say no to. Many, many GMs wouldn’t have been able to. I think a really good GM would have, though.

Trading the #19 pick was also a very bad idea. Even when they were 5-1, trading the #19 pick was a bad idea.

Obi, IQ and RJ all are similar in that they have tantalizing strengths but a the end of the day they are deeply flawed. I’m not sure which one I’d favor keeping out of the three.

Excellent question. I’d go IQ. IQ has irreplaceable 2022 NBA skills. Obi is a bit like empty calorie fun, while RJ is like paying someone $25 million to kick you in the dick.

Brian Cronin: Trading the #19 pick was also a very bad idea. Even when they were 5-1, trading the #19 pick was a bad idea.

Right, because if we made that pick, Jalen or Keon would be leading us to…uh…mmmm…

Again, I wish they had just picked McBride with #19 and Grimes at #21 just to shut down this irritating talking point.

But with the contracts and picks that we have, this team can be turned over in a heartbeat .

I agree that the team CAN be turned around. But I look at Leon Rose and I don’t see somebody with creative solutions to things, nor do I see somebody who is going to say “this isn’t working out, we need to go with more youth.”

We’re doing the thing I hate most, which is going into “win now” mode then winning 35 games. Bleccchh.

BigBlueAL: Still gotta be RJ no?He clearly has the biggest upside but the impending contract situation is the biggest issue.

Yeah, but that’s the rub. He may be the most likely to be an albatross down the road.

Right, because if we made that pick, Jalen or Keon would be leading us to…uh…mmmm…

If we had that pick, we’d have a player we could start to develop, with the hopes that you have a useful piece in a few years. Nobody is saying we’d be winning right now if we had Jalen Johnson, that is not really an honest characterization of this situation.

The idea was that we didn’t need another young player taking up a roster spot because we were going to be so good. The worse this team plays, the worse that trade looks.

>>>Blowing up a #4 seed when you can bring basically everyone back for mid-level deals is a tough thing to say no to. <<<

I think the strategy of trying to build on last year's success was sound. It was the execution of it that was horrible. There were much better moves out there than Kemba Walker and French Hardaway.

If we had done what Chicago did, for instance (and we could have), we'd be looking at:

Ball
Barrett
DeRozan
Randle
Mitch

Rose
Quickley
Caruso
Toppin
Taj

And, of course, we could have the two Johnsons lighting up the G League with Deuce.

That's a nice alternate timeline. Instead we got Leon's offseason from hell, and now here we are.

well, we lost, again…ugh, i’ve actually watched the last couple of losses…

thankfully, it can only get better, or worse, or maybe stay the same…

it’s definitely not just a matter of bad luck concerning the 14 losses we’ve accumulated to date…at times it really looks like we can play okay…

tell me if you heard this one before – we really need a starting point guard…

I was going to make a point about how even the dynasty Bulls both made their first round picks and used them, and that’s true, but they also literally drafted a guy at #29 overall one year, Travis Knight, and cut him rather than sign him to a contract! Okay, now that’s truly wasting a pick. Krause then whined about how in the old days, you were allowed to see a guy play in training camp before having to commit to a contract for him, but now you had to sign them to a contract first and he didn’t want to commit the three-year deal. Then why did you not trade the pick, dummy?

JK47: The idea was that we didn’t need another young player taking up a roster spot because we were going to be so good. The worse this team plays, the worse that trade looks.

Or alternatively, the idea was that we have enough young guys on the roster that we felt there was more of a market for an unscratched lottery ticket than a scratched one .

At this point in time, I think the valuation of either Jalen or Keon is marginally different from the valuation of the protected CHA pick. If ATL wanted to trade Jalen Johnson right now, what do you think they could get for him? If LAC wanted to trade Keon Johnson right now, what do you think they could get for him? Would any team give up a likely lottery pick for either of them? My guess is that they could get maybe a lottery-protected first at best, and probably not even that.

KevinR:
I’d favor IQ out of those 3 for his shooting even though its a little down this year. When teams start daring Obi to shoot he wont be dunking on every posession which we saw at the end of this game.

Teams are already daring Obi to shoot. He was wide open for threes almost three times in a row and each time Randall passed to him and he missed.

It doesn’t matter what the Johnsons would net in a trade today because the point of having them was to bring them along slowly like Atlanta and LA are doing. They’re both still 19 years old. You develop them for two years and hope to have a pair of useful 21 year olds.

That would be a horrible outcome. We’d be capped out with zero flexibility and locked into mediocrity

No actually that’s the outcome we did get. In the alternate outcome, we’re good.

There is no sure value of the Charlotte pick. We hope it doesn’t convert to a 2nd round pick.

Hubert: No actually that’s the outcome we did get. In the alternate outcome, we’re good.

I don’t know how you could argue that we have zero flexibility either right now and 2 years from now, whether compared to your scenario or to the Bulls. You seem to forget that DeRozan was a sign and trade involving picks going out, or that CHI already had LaVine and Vuc on their roster. When they max LaVine they will be hard capped and will have no draft capital. We would have slightly more flexibility, but if we made those deals, how far could that team go? What could you do with a core of DeRozan, Ball, and Randle?

Yes, they’d be easier on the eyes now, but that would have been a very bad path to take.

Hubert:
There is no sure value of the Charlotte pick. We hope it doesn’t convert to a 2nd round pick.

There absolutely is sure value in it right now because it is by far more likely to convert as a first than as 2 seconds and there’s a reasonable chance that it will convert as a higher pick than #19. There’s even an outside chance that the protections are dropped because CHA can’t trade any future firsts until this pick transfers. Sure, some value is lost because of the possibility that it will convert to 2 seconds, but probably not much until year 3 if CHA regresses and looks like they’re stuck in the lottery.

Lottery-protected firsts are traded all the time, even those that convert to seconds after several years.

JK47: JK47
December 10, 2021 at 11:18 pm
Well, it turns out we’re a pretty mediocre team. I know hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but it seems to me that if you’re mediocre and you’re trying to get better, you’d kinda want a young player on your roster now and not in 2024 or whenever the thing conveys. We weren’t really in the position to turn our nose up at young talent, but whatever. This team is dreary and it would have been nice to have another piece to dream on.

But why do you assume that we are going to exercise the pick rather than packaging it in a trade? Isn’t it pretty clear that our path out of mediocrity is going to involve trading for better players, using either picks or young players to do so? It that’s the case, then the question of whether the pick you make will have more value than the pick you save for later becomes pretty important.

Well I’m back, with or without Covid, we’ll just have to see, but seems like I didn’t miss much. And with the loss comes the Re-litigation Rag, so g’night gents.

Okay, I had to check the scores and how dare you, Pepper… KP rocks an impressive minus 21, Bullocks minus 11 with zero points in 21 scintillating minutes, while Frank, with only a personal foul to his name, is plus 4.

It’s magic, I tell ya…

The last time they had “flexibility,” they spent all their cap room on Derrick Rose, Alec Burks, Nerlens Noel, and Evan Fournier, and incinerated the 19th pick in the draft.

They should have been in the lottery last year. The empty building year was pure fools gold and it was pretty clear (obvious, really) after they got creamed in the playoffs by the 5 seed. I agree that it would have been tough to act on the realization, but in a hypercompetitive environment, that’s what you have to do.

They’re 7-13 in their last 20 against a not-difficult schedule. They aren’t even mediocre right now. The absolute worst thing they can do now is yet another band-aid move to try to salvage a playoff spot. They should be sellers at the deadline, not buyers. They desperately need young legs and young talent in the organization and the only way to get that is through the draft and better yet, the lottery.

They should trade Randle and normalize the offense and the roster. Broken record on this one.

I’m not sure where you go with Tom Thibodeau as the coach given the true reality of where you are. I don’t see any purpose in keeping him around to squeeze out the occasional Thibs win and continue to agitate for his older guys and continue to bleat to Berman about Bullock and continue to do things like intentionally and willingly play Alec Burks starters’ minutes at point guard. Is he the right coach for the true place they’re in as an organization and the best path forward? Probably not.

I’ve come down to one conclusion… if Vildoza had stayed on the roster, he’d been our PG in place of the Burks experiment. What about that? There must be a guy in Spain totally frustrated for the missed opportunity.

cybersoze:
Please, don’t envy the Bulls until you check how they do in the playoffs. The saying is you can hide a bad defender in the playoffs (eg, Hawks and Trae), but you can’t hide two. Let’s wait to see how they’ll hide THREE (Lavine, DeRozan and Vuc).

I tend to agree, although I do think this is a rare opportunity for teams to make a finals run with Kyrie, Kawhi, and Simmons out of the mix.

You clearly have selective reading when it comes to my posts, willfully ignoring anything I say that is critical of Leon and Thibs

I read the post where you said having the Bulls off-season would have been a horrible outcome. That’s just insane, dude. It is literally impossible, with hindsight, to genuinely believe that Leon’s off-season moves were better than the other ones that the Bulls showed were available. You have to either be trolling or thoroughly committed to an agenda to make that statement.

PS Ayo Dosunmu was the win now player Leon was looking for.

.