From Peter Botte:
Two weeks after the Knicks failed to complete a stirring comeback in Portland — largely because they couldn’t stop Damian Lillard — they more than held their own in the point-guard battle against the Trail Blazers to post their second straight victory.
Elfrid Payton netted 22 points in his second strong performance in a row, rookie backup Immanuel Quickley kicked in 12 points in 13 minutes off the bench and both were active defensively against Lillard as the Knicks held off the Blazers for a 110-99 win Saturday at the Garden.
“We had to obviously take care of the problem, which is Dame. He’s the head of the snake for them. He creates most of the problems,” Julius Randle said after the Knicks improved to 11-13, the sixth-best record in the Eastern Conference. “We just tried to show him as many bodies as we could.”
Randle finished with 22 points and 11 rebounds, RJ Barrett scored 18 and Alec Burks nailed four 3-pointers for 16 points off the bench for the Knicks, who next will play a home-and-home set against the Heat on Sunday afternoon at the Garden and Tuesday night in Miami.
As I was just saying about the Bulls game, when Elfrid Payton is playing well, the Knicks can beat any team in the NBA. The problem with that, of course, is that Elfrid Payton typically doesn’t play well, but boy, when he’s on, the entire team is dramatically altered (for the better).
Burks hitting a bunch of threes was nice, as well.
The Heat are in disarray right now, so there’s a legit chance that the Knicks can get to .500 after sweeping the Heat!
In less good news, the Knicks sound like they are seriously going to trade for Derrick Rose. Let’s see it actually happen before we pooh-pooh it (but then if it does happen, we shall pooh pooh it like crazy).
106 replies on “NY Post: Point guards shine as Knicks hold off Trail Blazers”
Cmon Clippers… make Detroit an offer they can’t refuse.
Predicting the rationalizations:
1) we don’t have room on the roster for the pick(s) we gave up for Rose anyway
2) if he shoots like he did for 1392 minutes in 2018-2019 and never again before or after that he could really help the offense
3) when he takes his unannounced sabbatical Thibs will have no choice but to play Quickley a lot
If it’s just Frank or Knox for Rose… I’ll still hate it.
Trading for Rose would make me do a pretty big 180 narrative wise on the front office so far. I’ve been excusing the Toppin pick because it’s been their only glaring mistake, and it was understandable in a way, but trading for Derrick fucking Rose makes literally zero sense. A ball dominant dude who was washed when he was with us like 4 years ago and will take space from Barrett and Quickley, it’s about as bad as it can get.
OK, I’ll give you a rationalization:
Rose is not a part of the team’s future. He is a lateral move that just gives Thibs a mix he likes better. Nothing we give back in a trade is relevant.
Steph Curry. That’s all. Steph Curry.
Steph is just too much. Is there any greater travesty than missing him by 1 pick?
Is Steph washed?
No. Definitely not
I guess Steph solved the question of what would happen to his “legacy” if he couldn’t carry this Warriors team without his sidekicks.
Honestly, out of all the punches we took over the years, this is the one that still hurts the most to me. Incredible generational player, incredibly fun to watch, perfect for the Garden, cool person, charitable guy with no but or ifs… I think I would go as far as say that he’s the number one guy I’ve always wanted to see in a Knicks uniform
None.
He can hit from anywhere. He hit a 3 point shot before while falling down to his side and he pulled up from 40 and nailed it with a guy in his face.
By the way just a tangent, whoever watches this Sixers and doesn’t see the impact Ben Simmons has on the court is crazy. He has somehow become one of the most underrated stars in the league because of the non shooting issue, but he just does so much good for them
Derrick Rose for free is detrimental and disgusting
During the game today I was thinking how unfair it is that Dame hasn’t been seen as being on the same level as Steph. Then you watch Steph and, well, he’s just on another plane. Just amazing player. Top 50 all time, probably top 30, maybe top 20.
Always want that guy who quits on his teammates. Decides they aren’t worth his time and effort. That’s a solid guy right there..
My Steph Curry is maybe washed takes were premature
Coach’s challenge
Thibs has earned the right to ask for a player.
Team is playing competitive bball and looks ready for the next step against all predictions.
DRose to the Knicks don’t seem exactly sane or sexy right now but if Thibs wants him he should have him.
If he can buy shit and sell it for sculpture I’ll respect him meaning that if Rose upgrades the pg position and magically fix every player’s game I’ll give credit to Thibs.
But If trading for Rose turns the team into a mercs semetary while costs us also assets and future development then the shit will be on Thibs face.
Draymond so far in 28 minutes has 0 points, 12 assists, 6 rebounds, 5 steals, and 3 blocks. Make sense of that.
As I was left dangling on the last thread, I’ll just repeat — what our team clearly needs is a career 30% three point shooter.
I guess there’s hatred for Rose. I’ve always loved Rose, except for that Kyrie-like moment when he disappeared on the Knicks.
Trading Knox, DSJr and Frank for Rose is perfect IMO. It removes any excuse to play the three worst players in the league. Rose starts until IQ is ready then settles into the backup role for a couple of years.
Rose career 3pt%: 30.5
I was upset with that bazemore foul to lose the game and then I realized it’s just the 3rd quarter
Is premature a euphemism for ridiculously dumb?
Yeah, Knick games don’t break 106-101 after 3.
Yea and someone who shows near no emotion for his teammates, quits on them … he doing it again in Detroit, now. The guy is a nobody now. Thibs needs to grow up and Rose needs to swallow his pride. When you quit on your team and your job you should be fired without pay.
GoNY — my bad. I stand corrected.
But your plans for world domination left out our current starting pg…
Mavs clearly play with more energy sans KP
Emergency PG
I will admit I personally don’t like Derrick Rose, after all the issues he had with us, disappearing, general terrible play, the rape accusation, etc, he’s a player I definitely would rather never see in a Knicks uniform. But the worst thing is that it absolutely makes zero sense for us AND for him, who should really be pushing for a move to a contender to get a ring. Why would he even bother trying hard for us, when he obviously won’t get a big contract next season anyway?
No
There’s a Don Johnson-Melanie Griffith vibe on that possible trade move
He can ask all he wants a good GM would tell him no.
Don’t forget, in the alternate universe where we get to draft Steph, in true Knicksy fashion we would have dumped him early in his career when he seemed injury prone.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one.
It’s all of this and more. But one thing it’s not is an obstacle to the rebuild path we are on. It’s just really bad aesthetics.
This Mavs/Dubs game is one of the best of the season. Another in the “clearly it’s all Luka’s fault” category.
Hardaway Jr 3-14 and Mark Jackson raving about him
He goes too. Of course, there’s a no-trade clause to work out but yeah.
I hear Luka is holding KP back again
Dubs getting fucked by the refs down the stretch
Leon Spinks outlived his front teeth by 50 years
The Refs going to get one right?
Dubs ain’t dead yet!
Luka is a basketball genius and any opinion to the contrary is laughable
Kleber
It was always going to be Kleber
Shouldnt the Dubs have fouled Doncic there?
Damn it!
That was a wild ride. Luka vs Steph. Damn Dubs lose.
I have to say, the talent spread in the NBA right now is phenomenal. I mean, the only team that isn’t even interesting to watch is Detroit.
having someone else’s first rd pick is quite fun….. i guess this is what chicago and toronto was laughing their asses off over all these years….
Dubs giving 70 minutes to 2 guys who combined for 4 points pretty funny.
Draymond 2 points,6 boards,15 assists, 6 steals, 4 blocks and 7 turnovers is an incredible line.
The Mavericks still don’t look like a playoff team to me.
———
Derrick Rose has a .059 WS/48 to Elfrid Payton’s .013. Neither player is ideal but the one currently employed by the Knicks is not an NBA player this season.
Lonzo put in another good effort tonight. I wouldn’t want to trade a 1st for him, but maybe for a pupu platter of our young rejects like Knox/DSJ…
Oops, I see there’s a new thread (I thought it was odd that nobody was watching the Doncics vs the Currys, especially given the lottery pick implications:)
Posted moments ago on the ancient thread:
I’m sure it’s happened before, maybe even many times before. But back in the days when I used to watch basketball games (you know, back before I was cornering the stock market and negging scarlet Johansson) there were rarely two 50 pt games in a season*, let alone two in one night.
(*by dudes not naked Jordan, that is)
Willie Burton had a 53 pt game in the 1994!
Sure, but who cares, going from a bad player to a somewhat less bad player doesn’t move the needle. We go from 31-41 to 33-39 what’s the difference?
The scoring is one thing. The overall health of nearly all NBA franchises is another. This is truly the dawn of a great period of NBA basketball.
***Willie Burton had a 53 pt game in the 1994!***
Haha, I was actually going to invoke him, but he was such an outlier that even Malcom Gladwell pretended it didn’t happen cause it blew a whole in his entire premise.
That’s why it’s ridiculous that they haven’t expanded in 17 years.
The narratives changing around Luka (because he’s suddenly a foul baiter and a whiner even though he’s always been both with no issues) are so damn stupid. That was a superstar game, not many players in the NBA can say they managed to go toe to toe with an inspired Steph.
It would be a very interesting discussion to think about whether the NBA is in a golden age of talent simply because of random chance or if there’s anything structural behind it (which is what I lean towards, opening up to the European markets, more attractive games with more points leading to more kids gravitating towards the sport, all the money etc)
We’ve always differed on this. Why don’t you think that all franchises should be competitive? Why expand when that would assure more mediocrity?
The only one around here who disparages Luka is strat. It’s a rubber stamp on his dumbness. Considering it as even a minority viewpoint only gives air to his vapid suggestions about him. He is a lone, demented voice in the wilderness about him.
But this is more of a testament to the enduring quality of the discussion here that this is the case, because pretty everywhere else the narrative is quickly changing. Always the same shit, fans and media can’t stop talking about a player, than time goes on, said player has a tough stretch and the hate becomes disproportionate in return. I guess it is inevitable in the social media era.
How about DET taking the champs to 2 OTs?
Anything that forces Lebron to stop coasting is good in many levels, to watch him try hard in more games and to get them tired foe the playoffs.
The worst team in the league just took the defending champs to double overtime. There’s enough talent to easily support another two teams, especially when one of those cities was dicked over and really should have a team again.
seattle would be one most likely…i’d guess a surprise on the other city – maybe kansas city or pittsburgh…
There are just never going to enough cities in the US to support a league with every team being competitive, at the end of the day players will gravitate towards the same franchises. That’s why I’m not against expansion, I don’t think two teams stretches the league anymore thin than it already is, and Seattle needs a team anyway. It’s 30 players, there’s more than enough good G-Leaguers and guys abroad to make up for those slots.
Speaking of the Pistons, they’re involved in two of the dumbest NBA narrative-related things I’ve seen recently..
The first – “Nobody thought Jerami Grant could be this good!” That’s silly. No one was questioning Grant’s talent or that he could score more as the #1 scoring option for a shitty team, people just didn’t know why he wanted to take the same money to be the #1 scoring option for a shitty team versus being a key rotation player on a championship contender. When people were, like, “What is Jerami Grant doing?” it wasn’t about his talent.
The second – “The Pistons are better off with Grant and no Christian Wood because the two of them would make the Piston too good for a top lottery pick.” That’s just gobbley gook. When the Pistons just basically said, “See ya!” to Christian Wood, they got nothing for him. Of course you’d be better off with both guys, if only so you could trade one of them. It is patently absurd to think that they’re better off having just Grant. So dumb.
Specially when they’re paying Plumlee not much less than Wood is making with the Rockets to be a just decent guy. The Jerami Grant thing, well, its the same idea every time of people thinking simply taking a lot of shots is a skill, and I still don’t get why people buy that idea. I’m convinced at least 75% of the guys in the NBA could average 20 ppg if they shot enough times, yet everytime it happens people are so surprised. Nobody learned anything from Stackhouse’s legacy in the league.
You’re right Bruno, as evidenced in our last two games, with Payton leading the team in shots attempted both times and averaging 21 PPG…
Note: Thibs is very good at scheming when facing a team the second/third time, going to the rim was the best thing to do against two teams with questionable rim protection and Payton did it really well (as did RJ when he got the ball).
I’m less happy watching IQ play 26 minutes combined in those games and getting benched after three consecutive good plays (Thibs’ famous “rewarding the rookies” strategy) or Taj Gibson playing more than Obi Toppin, but that’s on me, everything’s well in Knicks’ land.
The Rose’s rumors (or nearly fait accompli) is frightening, I’m trying to keep calm and just let this nightmare go away, maybe Lawrence Frank will save us…
Maybe there’s a statement in the NBA rulebook, which we’re unaware of, that states that the Knicks must have at least one rapist on the roster every single year.
Berman assures us that the Knicks would “probably be hesitant” to include the Mavs 2021 in a Rose trade so you can come on in off the ledge now everyone.
What an odd thing for Berman to say. There’s no way that the Pistons are seriously asking for the Mavs’ unprotected 2021 pick. Asking for the 2023 Top 10 protected pick would be asking for too much, but certainly the 2021 Mavs pick. How would that even come up? Berman is way off base here.
1. I can’t see the Knicks giving up much of value for Rose. He’d be an upgrade, but he’s not a solution to anything. However, they may see IQ’s future as a SG and not the PG we want him to be. He’s a more natural scorer than he is a playmaker. So they may be looking for another PG. The only player I can see giving up would be DSJr. Anything else would be idiotic. Rose should want to go to the Clippers anyway.
2. It took Steph a few weeks to get back to 100% (as expected), but watching him last night was a good reminder of how great he is. He doesn’t have near the help he had with Durant and Klay or even Klay and Barnes, but it wasn’t going to stop him from stepping up to another level and delivering more. It’s a shame Klay got hurt.
3. I never thought I’d utter these words. but the Mavs play basketball like the Knicks used to before they had a great coach. They play no defense and are so dumb on offense it’s hard to find the words. But they have a lot of talent and can win games despite it.
Berman also tweeted this:
“Quickley scored 31 against Portland in last meetup. Thibodeau went entire first quarter now with Payton. Quickley didn’t see action. Like it. Thibs definitely trying to keep this kid humble with all the hype.”
Yeah, we can’t have good young players actually thinking they’re good now, can we? And the even more ridiculous thing is that IQ is totally grounded and from all appearances has an almost perfect attitude. (Yeah embedded but clearly valid assumption there that Berman is just mouthpiecing Thibs.)
You just don’t want your young players in Thibs’s hands. The words “clear and present danger” come to mind. And now comes Derrick Rose to complete Project Humility.
Derrick Rose is 32, makes $7.5M, is having a terrible season, and might have the most extensive injury history in the NBA.
There are no circumstances under which it makes sense to acquire him unless assets are coming back. None at all. A low price is better than a high one, obviously, but paying a price period would be idiotic.
It’s not may fault this is mostly the kindergarten of basketball understanding.
I never disparaged Doncic’s talent and skill.
I disparaged his conditioning, defense, and decision making because it prevents him from becoming a Larry Bird caliber instead of what he is. He could be an all time great player. Right now, he’s an out of shape magician that defends no one and that often stuffs the stat sheet because he can create his own shot anytime he wants. He’s so talented around the basket he can remain reasonably efficient overall despite the mistakes, but the way he plays doesn’t help the team as much if he did less but more effectively and stopped eating Twinkies.
If you want to watch a great player, watch Steph. He doesn’t needlessly run off clock dribbling around and then often ultimately throw up a trash shot or force a bad pass. He creates when he can, moves the ball, makes smart passes and I’m pretty sure he doesn’t eat Twinkies at halftime either. He uses his immense talents and skills way more effectively. He also gives 100% on defense and defends better than given credit for.
I don’t see the issue with playing Payton instead of Quickley the other night.
Quickley is more of a shooter and scorer than he is a PG. Payton is the superior PG. The problem with Payton is shooting, but he was getting to the basket and having a very good game on offense that night. Quickley’s scoring wasn’t going to help the offense that much in that game. The problem was defending Lillard. Even though Payton was getting lit up, he’s a better option defensively than Quickley. The only other sensible alternative would have been playing someone that might actually be able to defend Lilliard.
He scored 22 points on 19 shots. And that’s his top end efficiency, a great game for him. IQ was like 40% more efficient even in a game which is somehow bizarrely seen as meh.
It’s beyond weird that we’re now taking for granted a rookie scoring 12 points on 8 shots in 13 minutes at a plus-5. It’s pure Knicks PTSD. Thibs is a better coach than Fizdale and therefore all bearings are lost. The “humility” thing in the 2021 NBA is just insane.
We’re 24 games in and the Knicks defense seems legit.
1st in points allowed
1st in FG allowed
1st in opp FG%
1st in opp 3pt%
3rd in assists allowed
6th in def RTG
8th in 3pts allowed
They seemed strong about eight games in, but folks were justly questioning given small sample.
Still not a huge sample, but they remain consistent, and even improved.
If they can get their scoring up a bit, they may actually be a solid playoff team.
He belongs on the Clippers.
Beverley is a terrific player, but he’s more ideal on a team like the Lakers, Nuggets, 76ers, or Mavericks where the offense often runs through a position other than PG. Then he can be on the court to use his elite defense to disrupt the opposing offense and PG (a huge plus) while giving you enough secondary playmaking and 3p shooting to not be a liability on offense. That creates a huge net positive at the team level. Last year the Clippers got stopped partly because of inadequate PG/playmaking. Kawhi understood that and said as much after the season. This year Kawhi is trying to expand his game and role to take on more of that, but having a player like Rose would be a plus for that team.
With the Knicks it’s an agenda thing.
The Knicks are trying to be competitive every night, win games, and make the playoff THIS YEAR to develop their players, to change perceptions, and to get everyone used to giving 100% in tough meaningful games. If they can accomplish that, the hope is that the Knicks will become more of a trade and free agent destination instead of being the laughing stock they’ve been for years.
Your agenda is to maximize the team in 2025-2026 mostly via draft.
Rose makes sense for NY given their agenda, but is insane in yours. If they are going to do it, giving up DSjr would OK, He’s not playing. Most of us have given up on him (including Thibs) and it will give him another fresh start on a team he can play for. Rose is an upgrade at PG for us and won’t displace IQ. Rose will play PG in one of the units and IQ will play SG with either Rose or Payton.
I’m holding out hope that this news is a leverage move so the Knicks can actually get another player at the price they want (Oladipo?)
If not, it’s clearly better to do nothing. Frank, DSJ, and Knox are all sunk costs now; no one is scrambling to sign them away from us at this point. If we want them back on modest deals, we have plenty of ability to do that.
Or – let them walk. The free agent money alone we would save is probably more valuable then the 2nd rounder they might bring back. If we aren’t swinging a clear “win” trade, that should be the strategy.
There’s no reason whatsoever to change Immanuel Quickley’s position now. Changing it to incorporate Derrick Rose and Elfrid Payton is insane.
Immanuel Quickley’s assist rate is 20% higher than Elfrid Payton’s. There’s no sense in which he should be moved off the ball. What exactly are you watching, strat? IQ is great with the ball in his hands as an initiator.
It’s hard to believe they are going to do it.
Whatever, he’s a former MVP. He will put some fans in the seats.
We might as well finish the thought here — Immanuel Quickley’s TO rate is miniscule, 25% better than Elfrid Payton’s. He’s been fantastic with the ball in his hands. Can’t begin to understand why people think there’s some boogieman around the corner that’s going to “expose him” and make it all an illusion. Other than Knicks PTSD, of course, which is all this is.
We can’t go deep into the playoffs without Rose’s defense and experience…
Cmon guys, it’s so obvious….
Props for staying on brand with the nonsensical mischaracterization, but none of this is true. What you’re missing is Derrick Rose sucks, so it’s not clear at all he helps even modestly with the misguided goal of maximizing our win total this year.
Take a look at the problems plaguing the Knicks’ offense this year and make the case to me that what they really need is a high usage guard with a .517 TS% and a career .305 3PT%.
For all of you who are concerned about trading away Frank Ntilikina, let me remind you that he’s an RFA this coming offseason and would require an $8.5M qualifying offer. Same for DS Jr. who requires a $7.7M QO. Who here would pay either that as a free agent? So trading either player for Rose has no negative impact on the development of the team. Note: Rose is a UFA after the season but I bet he resigns on a year-by-year basis to play for Thibs. We might get more years out of Rose than we would get out of Frank.
Yeesh, Thibs..
It’s time for me to face the music. Ntilikina is dead in the water.
Listen..while the Rose move would be a pointless win now move, I am ok with it under one of two conditions:
1. He replaces Elfrid.
2. He replaces Rivers. Under this one, Quickley moves to the starting lineup.
What I am not ok with is losing Ntilikina for Rose. Whether Rose replaces Elfrid or Rivers, you have just made the defense worse. That being said, with Detroit in a full blown rebuild- why shouldn’t DSJ and Knox be just as enticing for Rose and a 2nd? They’re gonna lose Rose anyway and they need to be evaluating future pieces more than the Knicks. Hell..they should accept Rivers and DSJ if they don’t wanna give us a 2nd.
This all sounds fantasy league, but the Knicks need to continue to be shrewd with roster moves and not get infatuated with the instant offense Rose can bring so much that we give up our best and most versatile perimeter defender by far in Ntilikina.
Lastly..how and where do we move Elfrid to? I imagine we have to package him with someone, and it might just have to be Knox..which may be too steep a price.
Is this supposed to make me feel better?
The FO right now needs to be telling Thibs (diplomatically of course) to fuck off with the Rose stuff and stay in his lane.
This was always the worry — that Thibs would cobble something together that was passably ok but not really a platform for anything else, that the team would be kinda sorta in the playoff mix, that he wouldn’t really want to play and develop the young guys, and that he’d use that illusion of “growth” to start agitating to bring his guys in.
Each and every one of the worries is coming to pass. It’s practically textbook.
By the way there’s apparently a mini bidding war, so you can probably put to bed the idea that we’ll be giving up Frank or DSJ and nothing else.
My guess is we wind up giving them their second rounder back. You know, the one currently projected to be the 31st overall pick.
Second rounder? We’ll be lucky to come out of this without giving up one of the Dallas 1s. There’s a lot of interest in Derrick out there and if you want something, you have to give up something.
Start with this, is Rose better than Frank? If you say no, then there’s no discussion. I just disagree with you on premise. If you admit that Rose is better (I say much better, even now), then your argument has to be predicated on “losing is better than winning” because both are FAs and you are still clinging to tank-hope.
First, Taj.
Now, Derrick.
Joakim, come on back!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dzOHq5WbQ8k
Players who have quit on their teams:
Anthony Davis
Kawhi Leonard
Kyrie Irving
James Harden
Derrick Rose
But we’re thrilled to have a player of Derrick’s caliber and experience.
It seems kind of absurd that the same guys who have won every deal and signing they made so far would grossly overpay for Rose, which they would be doing if they included that pick.
We’re on a mission from God!
I’m going to assume that the FO is not dumb enough to give up a pick for Rose, most certainly not that one. If the price is any combo or Frank, Knox, DSjr or Iggy, whatever. It’s essentially a wash. Those guys have no future here under Thibs and have no trade value whatsoever.
A bigger question is how Rose would fit into the rotation. It’s unlikely that he would displace IQ. The fact remains that Thibs loves the kid and trusts him in any situation that he would trust Rose. Has Thibs soured on Rivers? That seems like the logical move.
This makes sense until you consider that neither Derrick Rose nor Frank Ntilikina are required to be on the roster next year
“ Some Knicks representatives believed the team was close to acquiring Rose during the offseason, according to Begley. He adds that if New York pulls off a deal, it will probably be with the intention to re-sign Rose, who is also headed for free agency. The Knicks would own his early Bird rights and could offer a contract ranging from two to four years with a starting salary up to $13.4MM or a one-year deal for as much as $9.2MM.”
No comment
It’s not even a matter of FO intelligence now; it’s a matter of their will in wanting to/being able to say no to Thibs. Totally different dynamic, one that was virtually inevitable.
clickbait
I was going to post how nice it was to have no known rapists on the team a few threads ago but it seemed like courting disaster
Top quality trolling right there. Not only is it somehow guaranteed that Thibs wants Rose and the FO is in conflict with him and Berman isn’t being used as part of a strategy to acquire another player for cheap, but we’re going to make a dumb deal the likes of which would be completely foreign to any move the FO has made to date. Bravo!
EAnon is coming
Trading for D. Rose would be some farcical shit. How can Dolan bring him back after he went AWOL his last stint with the team? (Not to mention the terrible play)
I wish Dolan’s pettiness would work out in our favor for once.