NY Post: Knicks shockingly aren’t closer to scapegoating David Fizdale

David ” The Reports Of My Death Are Greatly Exaggerated” Fizdale

Berman does that a lot. He likes to show that he’s not literally just a Mills mouthpiece. He’ll put the word out there that Mills wants put out there, but he is not just doing Mills hagiography. This isn’t Charley Rosen, ya know?

This is what I was saying on Tuesday when I mentioned Pills could get voted off before they play their immunity idol…

They think they can drag this out, buy them time. But this shit is demoralizing and I wouldn’t be shocked if the players quit. And then it’s going to be hard for Mills and Perry to even play the new coach card, especially if all they have is promoting Mike Miller.

“It’s a combination,” one NBA personnel man said. “Fiz looks to be a better assistant coach — not a head coach. He needs to understand how not to be everybody’s friend.”

Absolutely he’s an assistant and not a head coach. 100%

The point-guard situation is an issue. The Knicks lack the true floor general needed to perhaps unlock guys such as struggling Kevin Knox, Mitchell Robinson and even Randle.

This is absurd, pure clownshoes, given the offensive scheme they’ve run. And Frank is eminently able to “unlock” Knox and Mitch. Blaming Randle’s suckitude on the point guards when he IS the point guard is just delusional.

Wow … there really is sentiment on the board that somehow Elfrid Payton coming back will make a material difference because he’s a “real” point guard. Well, you can’t say you weren’t warned when this turns out to be a mirage — as it is going to be.

I don’t follow Berman closely enough. Do you think there’s a chance he’s trying to distance himself from Pills in case Pills gets canned?

Nah, I’m sure he’ll just try to get in good with the next guy if Mills is ever fired. But really, if there ever was someone to get in good with, it would be Mills, since that dude will never get fired.

Miller seems like the kind of coach that we have been drooling for…a non-retread, non-system, non-celebrity, non-ex-player who is best suited to developing and inspiring young players to go after it.

The entire G-League starting lineup in 2016-17 got picked up by NBA teams. That’s a huge feather in his cap. I agree. I would be thrilled to have him get a shot.

All the tantrums in the world ain’t gonna change what everyone else can see: Frank Ntilikina is not a point guard.

His AST% of 20.1 currently ranks 80th among players who have played 100+ minutes. I know you’re not really into the whole “objective facts” thing though, so I’ll also point out that the guy is incapable of dribbling the basketball into the paint and making something good happen.

I’ve become slightly more optimistic about his prospects of sticking in the NBA this season as a wing of sorts (though we’ll see what happens when his .469 FG% from 16<3 land comes down). But pretending he's a point guard makes about as much sense as pretending Julius Randle is a point guard. He cannot do the things point guards are expected to do and it's highly unlikely he'll learn to do things such as "dribble" at age 21.

He’s a perfectly fine dribbler, which is why he never turns the ball over off the dribble and routinely brings the ball up successfully against pressure.

There’s a demeanor that lame ducks and walking dead men have. Fizdale has it. He must know that the ax is coming soon.

Watching the Westchester Knicks on MSG. They suck too.

Wooten is a beast. He batted an attempted layup about 15 rows back. Iggy seems to have no idea where to be on defense but he hustles. He could use a personal coach every day.

Y’all ever wonder who the Frank Ntilikinas on other teams are? As in, who are the replacement level scrubs that no other fanbase gives a shit about because they obviously suck, but a segment of that specific team’s fanbase will defend to the death?

“Always makes the right pass” is some bullshit, just an empty cliche to make Frank Ntilikina seem like a better player than he actually is.

Homey might have better than a 20.1 AST% if he “always made the right pass.”

John Stockton “always made the right pass,” that’s why his AST% was like 50.0 or better most of the time. Frank Ntilikina “makes the right pass” very occasionally.

It’s definitely true that Frank Ntilikina’s 495 minutes this season have been less shitty than DSJ’s 250 minutes, but seeing as how DSJ’s career 3,807 minutes have been less shitty than Ntilikina’s career 3,105 minutes it’s not at all clear to me who should be prioritized.

I’m starting to think KBlogger admins run E’s account in order to refocus us on basketball by saying dumb things about Frank.

I may have hallucinated it, but I’m fairly certain I’ve seen Frank turn the ball over twice attempting to pass to Randle from the wing to the top of the key. I don’t trust him with the ball unless he’s literally handing it to someone else.

Pretty sure I’ve also seen Frank throw the ball wildly into the stands attempting a kick out pass from the PnR.

Ball handling is more than avoiding turnovers, especially from the pg position. Ball handling is getting to the place on the floor you need to be. Frank can’t do that. When he tries to do the simplest PG related things he abjectly fails. There’s a reason our offense is to hand the ball to a PF 30 ft from the basket and have our “pg” stand in the corner.

I get news from elsewhere too, I also spent a very longtime thinking they were the same Mike Miller. There really should be more disclaimers about him in articles.

KP and Melo with the combined -27 last night. KP in a blowout win! So at least we don’t have to be tortured by what could have been. Small consolation to be sure.

Question. Let’s say you (granted absurdly) trade Frank N for Lebron. Change nothing else. Do we make the playoffs? Are we one (very great) player away from contention or is it deeper than that?

Yeah I had the same misconception. I’m disappointed. We should get the other Mike Miller not “the other Mike Miller” 😉

There is hope. If the Wilpons can sell the Mets then there’s a chance Dolan will as well.

If we grabbed Lebron, I’d guess we’d make the playoffs in the East. We desperately need offensive playmakers, but really it reflects my views about grabbing the 8th seed in the East more than being better.

Why couldn’t Dolan have invested with Madoff….

I also labored under the Mike Miller misperception. I think one of them needs a middle initial.

I am in the top 10% of Frank lovers but it’s blatantly obvious to anyone who cares to see that Frank can’t break down an NBA offense. He can throw a decent pass if the opportunity presents itself but if he has to make the opportunity he can’t do it.

Actually The Knicks did improve in their second ten game stretch. After having an average margin of victory of -10 for their first eleven games, they went on a run of six games where their average margin of victory was +1 and none of the six games was a loss of ten points or more. That is a statistically significant change. They looked better too. Their offense seemed more fluid as I remember.

After that, they regressed

“They got better but then they were bad again” isn’t really a supporting argument.

Miller seems like the kind of coach that we have been drooling for…a non-retread, non-system, non-celebrity, non-ex-player who is best suited to developing and inspiring young players to go after it.

This is complete conjecture. You have literally no idea if that’s what he’s best suited for. You don’t know if he runs a modern offense. You don’t even know if he’ll play the kids. For all you know, he might think “this is my chsnce, gotta play the vets to get wins.”

The entire G-League starting lineup in 2016-17 got picked up by NBA teams. That’s a huge feather in his cap. I agree. I would be thrilled to have him get a shot.

That could just as easily be attributed to the players or – gasp! – phil jackson.

The logic is not sound. I think we’re grasping at straws

Ah the familiar warm embrace of a Frank argument… How it soothes me.

I recently read a Celtic blog post that was trying to determine what Frank could be “gotten” for. I think they were saying they would go as high as their own 2019 pick and a young player like Edwards. It was, I shit you not, incredibly titillating.

I wonder how many owners would trade us their POBO if we offered the unprotected Dallas pick?

Kevin Pritchard in Indy, Darryl Morey in Houston, Masai Ujiri in Toronto, Tim Connelly in Denver, Andy Elisburg in Miami (he’s the GM), Lawrence Frank in LA (Clippers), somebody. We just need Perry/Mills/Fizdale out of here and we need a guy who can get full autonomy. If Dolan can’t convince a superstar player to come to town, he should just spend a max contract on his front office. Trade for a guy, and then build the league’s best player development system with your money. And for good karma bring back Jeff Van Gundy.

Also, Frank Ntilikina is a shooting guard. Let him play defense and shoot wide open threes. Hopefully he rebounds well enough to be as good as Andre Roberson some day.

Mike Miller was also named G-League Coach of the Year, like Quin Snyder and Nick Nurse. That alone is reason to think he could be a good coach.

as long as we’re fantasizing about former g league coaches of the year, i think scott morrison (now a celtics assistant) fits the profile of good coaching prospect. one thing that vaguely worries me about miller is that the westchester knicks were always at the bottom of the g league in 3pa while he was there, and i don’t think eastern illinois was thought of as a particularly smart/modernizing team during his tenure, either (i mean, i really don’t know). players seem to like him.

ha- imagine firing fizdale and replacing him with a former heat video coordinator.

this was funny
https://twitter.com/billsimmons/status/1202450005849595904

I’m less interested in Mike Miller and more interested in whoever was the GM for that team. Maybe he’s a good development coach, or maybe they had a smart selection process.

I love Lebron’s reaction when a fan asked him about it in the second half. “Yeah, that was fucked up.”

My real fear is that Brodie trades Jeff McNeil for a relief pitcher. You just know he is itching to do that. McNeil racked up 4.6 WAR for 500K. Brodie is not gonna let that shit stand.

Facilitate. Bring the ball up, organize, make a smart first pass. Lead the break effectively. That’s floor generalship, particularly if you throw in defense. Breaking the defense down or being a consistent first option is something different.

one thing that vaguely worries me about miller is that the westchester knicks were always at the bottom of the g league in 3pa while he was there

I saw something a few years ago about how he was told to implement the triangle in order to get players ready for the big team. I assume it’s a consequence of that. Which is when I first became impressed by him – made the triangle work and won games? Maybe this guy can coach…

Ok, you’re probably right and we’re completely doomed. Better?

🙂

Getting furious at banal coach speak because you read slander of the Golden Boy into it is out of ruru/er territory. Stanning of this magnitude is a force more powerful than anything this board has seen before.

McNeil cost like $90,000 per 1 WAR.

Definitely trade that guy! Gotta free up payroll!

JK that’s a very sad story and one that hits very close to home for many of us. Thanks for sharing.

Dan Craig, for one, who is the guy who fills in when Spoelstra takes time off in Miami.

Since I get all of my knicks news here and only here, I’m going to assume that Dan Craig is 007, and imagine him standing on the sidelines in a tuxedo with a martini and a clipboard, yelling coy innuendo at the players instead of game strategy.

In old days, you built a team by getting one “franchise player”. Then you try to get young complimentary pieces that fit till you can trade them for 2nd franchise player. Free agency was always plan B. Players didn’t move around much. After you added the 2nd, you then you add limited type specialty players that complement both and/or either one of two franchise players.

Pat Riley, Morey, Ainge, Warriors guy, even Ujiri (see Siakam and Lowry extensions)…don’t give a shit about salary cap or luxury tax. They just get the players they want. If the player is a franchise type player, then they’re worth it no matter what you pay for them. (in salary, trade or both)

You have to go all in a few times to win a poker tournament. These low risk moves trying not to lose will bleed you dry and while poker player gets to sit at the table a while longer, they never have a shot at winning.

In every team…two players produce 50% of the work every game. Its actually the square root of 5 for those that are familiar with Price’s law. In this league, when you add rebounds, assists, and decision making, – its probably 60% to 65%. Guys like Frank, Morris, Randle, Payton etc…are probably worth between 5 and 15 percent of team production. Back in the day, we called them whole fillers..now they’re called specialist. Either way, its the same shit.

90%+ of franchise players in NBA moved last summer and during Perry’s tenure. Guess he didn’t trust his job with any of them or they didn’t trust to put their own careers in Perry’s hands.

Hi, longtime lurker chiming in to ask a stupid/obvious question, but one that hopefully generates discussion: why should we fire Fizdale if we believe the best thing for this team to do right now is tank?

If we replace him with a better coach that ekes out a few more wins this year, isn’t that worse for our long-term health? If we replace him with an equally bad or worse coach and we continue to suck, we’d be in the same place as if we kept him, except with even more lolknicks.

I guess you still pull the trigger if you think Fiz is actively hurting the development of our young players, but I’m just not sure that’s the case (not denying it either, just not sure). Obviously a smarter coach would be playing Mitch more minutes, but its not like he’s riding the pine (and playing Mitch more minutes would make us more likely to win games, which again seems less than ideal right now). The only young player who really seems to be suffering purely due to coaching decisions is Trier. That’s a waste, but is it worth firing the guy?

Related, here’s another stupid question: do we have any data one way or the other on a coach’s impact on player development? I’ve been reading this board long enough to see evidence that coaching overall has little impact on wins and losses, and also that players in general tend to be consistent regardless of the players around them—but I wonder if things look different when you only look at players in their first few years in the league.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, just some ramblings from a fellow distraught Knicks fans. To all the regulars here, just want to say thanks for making this board a truly special place and a daily source of comfort for strangers like myself.

If it comes to that, they are morons and Frank should just ask for a trade to Dallas, San Antonio, Orlando or somewhere else he might fit.

Have you taken into account the possibility that these teams do not want Frank Ntilikina? Remember when we tried to trade him for literally any second round pick during the draft, and got zero bites?

“Floor general” is Fizdale’s term, not anyone’s here. It doesn’t mean a thing to me that Frank actually is a good “floor general.” It’s just gallows humor fun to rip on Fizdale for not being able to evaluate guys properly even when the papers give him a lifeline to throw out his own dumbass bullshit terms and take it from there. It really doesn’t get much more pathetic than that.

I think “secondary playmaker who mainly plays alongside another PG but can play PG in a pinch” is a good role for him, and I can see him succeeding in that role. It’s like the Jason Kidd as a Knick role. He could maybe pull that off. I actually kind of enjoy watching him play.

That’s exactly what he is. He’s the kind of guy you could picture playing great perimeter defense against the 2024 equivalent of Reggie Miller in the fourth quarter of playoff games with the Garden rocking. He’s an eighth-man-ish combo guard who could fill that role on a very good team. Absent too much hard liquor, it’s not possible to envision Elfrid Payton or Dennis Smith, Jr. ever doing anything for a good Knicks team. Which is why the “stans” don’t want the troika of buffoons trading Frank away for a bag of balls because they think they need to develop Elfrid Payton or DSJ, or for fuck’s sakes above, get Emmanuel Mudiay “right.” (TM) The “stanning” for Frank is properly viewed as a massive no-confidence vote in Pillsdale.

The notion that you need a traditional PG to have a successful offense is simply wrong.

You need enough ball movement, player movement, and play making to create better shot opportunities for everyone than going ISO on practically every possession like we do. It doesn’t matter what position or how many players are creating those plays, just that there’s enough (preferably as much as possible).

Denver runs their offense primarily through Jokic (a C) and Murray (a G) as a secondary playmaker. They even use Plumlee at C off the bench with Monte Morris.

The league has had point forwards like Bird (played with other play makers like Ainge and DJ) and James (played with Wade and Kyrie).

One could even argue that guys like Doncic and Simmons are not true PGs.

There have been teams with no true PG at all like virtually all of Phil Jackson’s championship triangle teams where there were 2-3 play makers on the court and space creating shooters next to Jordan or Kobe at guard.

The Warriors used a combination of the triangle offense and the Spurs offense to get player and ball movement and used Green, Durant, and Curry as play makers. No one dominated the ball and created all the time.

So if you are going to argue that Frank isn’t up to the task of being a true Nash, Stockton, CP3 etc.. type PG that’s obviously true.

It’s saying using Frank as a PG will only work really well if you have other good play makers on the court and have designed an offense that is not totally dependent on one true PG to make it work. I consider multiple playmakers to obviously be the SUPERIOR approach. We just don’t have the players to do it. So we need a better PG right now to run the trash Fizdale has implemented.

However, the hope is that RJ has enough innate talent to also become a significant play maker in time and we can add others. For now though, I’d take any ball and player movement at all.

The “stanning” for Frank is properly viewed as a massive no-confidence vote in Pillsdale.

Silly me for thinking “Stan” was an oblique reference to some isolated Central Asian Republic……..

why should we fire Fizdale if we believe the best thing for this team to do right now is tank?

The best thing we should do right now is develop the kids properly. Tanking will come naturally if we play them and let them learn.

Our kids don’t look like they’re getting coached well. The stress of having to create individually because they don’t have a system to execute adversely impacts them.

He needs to go. For the kids.

Silly me for thinking “Stan” was an oblique reference to some isolated Central Asian Republic……..

Until I read this that’s what I thought. Then the lightbulb went off “oh Eminem’s Stan” lol

Between Mike Miller, Daniel Craig, and now trading Frank Ntilikina to Kyrgyzstan, we are having major communication issues Knickerbloggers!

Definition Stanning: similar to fighting a land war in Asia.

As in arguing over Frank is similar to fighting a land war in Asia.

Used in Sentence: Why are we stanning over Frank? Everybody knows not to stan, only slightly less well known is never go against a Sicilian when death is on th he line!!

Yeah I’ve definitely heard Stan transform into a verb over the last few years on hip hop twitter/YouTube.

I would also be more than fine with a tuxedo-wearing, martini-sipping Daniel Craig on the sideline. I’d prefer Connery though. We couldn’t be worse.

@96

Yeah, this is kind of a meaningless discussion as people are discussing two different things. Yes Mario Chalmers was the nominal starting PG in a championship team, as were guys like BJ Armstrong before him, but they were never the main ball handlers and creators of a team and would fail miserably if they tried to do that. If Frank has any success as a “PG” it will be in this type of scenario.

Because they weren’t the dominant ball handlers on the team, like Stockton or Magic. Effectively placeholders. PGs mostly by dint of being smallest men on the floor rather than because of skillset.

You have Frank Ntilikina on your team. Do you need another dude to do most of the playmaking? Yes? Well, then he’s really only sort of a point guard.

Again, this is a semantic debate here. Right now we have Frank Ntilikina and nobody else who is a passable playmaker. How’s the offense goink?

You are all wrong. All of you. Frank is neither a “point guard” nor a “three and D wing.”

He’s a “defensive-minded point forward.” The Knicks have been starting five forwards — three power forwards and two point forwards!

But yeah, just semantics, labels.
🙂

Call him what you want Frank’s been the best (or least unproductive) guard on the team this season which is at least a bit promising

obviously we can’t pretend to slow cook ourselves in another game thread until we get to the bottom of this. we seem to agree that we need something that says “point guard in name, something else in game.” we also agree that “nominal point guard” is completely unworkable due to union issues. perhaps “feed guard” would work, as in “lead guard, but actually he just feeds the first open guy across half court,” but that doesn’t really feel fair to ray felton’s knick legacy. there is some merit to “joint guard,” implying the point at which 1 and 2 guards meet. this passes the set theory test, as there are other immediately known candidates for this category, such as kris dunn, george hill, avery bradley and dante exum… even our old friend langston galloway (and 3 point killer this year) but maybe this is too overdetermined and doesn’t really capture the unique essence of frank.

so let me suggest frank ntilikina, queen’s guard. i know that sounds like it risks a lot of extemporaneous horse nostalgia from strat and bobneptune, but i’m talking about the giant hat wearing british infantry who guard buckingham palace and what not. i mean, isn’t their whole thing supposed to be that they ferociously defend the royal residence but otherwise must stand absolutely, sometimes comically, still? if that doesn’t sound like a certain someone i don’t know what does. and also i was born in queens.

The term “point” implies lead playmaker, whether a guard or forward. Calling guys like Chalmers and Ron Harper point guards is a distortion of the concept. They are better referred to as combo guards. Some combo guards lean more toward the playmaking end of the spectrum, some more towards the scoring end, but they mostly all have at least rudimentary playmaking ability. The PG spot can be filled by a nominal player for salary cap purposes (or out of desperation due to injury) if there are several superstars or at least one transcendent player on the team. I put them in the category of “shitty” point guards.

Then there’s the scoring point guards who are the ball-dominant guys on their teams (Good: Iverson, Isaiah Thomas, Westbrook; Bad: Jimmer) and the pass-first playmaking PGs with limited scoring skills (Good: Rondo, Rubio, Prigioni; Bad: MCW .)

Frank is really none of these. He’s no more of a point guard than Randle. If he’s any of them, he’s in the “shitty” category.

I don’t like the term “nominal”. It seems insulting to me. There is no historical reason why a teams scoring is necessarily driven by a point guard, so maybe the modern style uses a “scoring” point guard, and the non-scoring point guards are the other point guards.

Frank feels like a holding midfielder to me to borrow a concept from futbol.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, just some ramblings from a fellow distraught Knicks fans. To all the regulars here, just want to say thanks for making this board a truly special place and a daily source of comfort for strangers like myself.

welcome aboard benny 🙂

you brought up a couple of interesting points: at this point, heck maybe even before the first game – our focus should have been tanking…just like last year…

fiz may be just the man for that job…

i’m sure there probably is a statistical formula for figuring out the effectiveness of a coach’s (and his staff) ability to develop players…year to year statistical progression, not sure though what stats are most key to illustrate that development…

haven’t heard anything at all so far this season about craig robinson and our player development program though this year…

oh yeah, if you have any weird life stuff to share – i’d be interesting in reading…lord knows in another month or two – we won’t be talking too much about actual knick basketball…

hmmmm, for some reason we have a one out of four chance to win tonight…they’re giving denver only 9 and a half over us…that can mean only one thing:

frank is gonna be back 🙂

reference frank taking the ball from out of bounds and dumping it as soon as he gets over half court – just from watching the games – it definitely looks like he’s been holding on to it longer once he passes half court the last handful of games or so before he was injured…

I’ve seen him more than once now dribble along the baseline…he’s actually taken it to the hole a few times (he may have even made a layup or two along the way)…

You’re right that Frank is awful at scoring, but what the residents of Frankistan gloss over is he’s also not good at playmaking.

Hey but he makes the right pass doe

Looks like Mook, Payton and Frank are all cleared to play. Can’t envision Payton getting much burn, so we may still not get an answer as to how better/worse the offence looks with him.

I could see Dennis getting the lion share of minutes. No reason to push Payton or Frank back early. “Available ” sounds pretty wishy-washy

Frankinstan would look just fine playing “point guard” with LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, and Coach Miller on the floor with him. He’d make a big play in a finals game and people might say he’s the lynchpin that made the dynasty great. It doesn’t change who Frank is relative to any normal nba team.

For the other 29 teams he’d still play Disappoint Guard.

Assists per 36:

DSJ-5.9
Payton-5.3
Frank-4.8

Elfrid has barely played this year, but he’s averaged 8 assists per 36 over his career, so I’m interested to see him get some real minutes and see if our system is suppressing PG assist chances. Dennis is around 6 for his career so it might just be all our guards suck at playmaking

“Hey but he makes the right pass doe”

But he also makes the left pass…that makes him a point guard, right?

The new guy doesn’t take over for five years. They have plenty of time to fuck more stuff up. “Let’s both not trade him and also not try to resign him.” Also known as Budz’ strategy as the Hawks PoBO.