2019-20 Game Thread: Knicks @ Nets

The Knicks head allllllllllllllllllll the way to Brooklyn to play the Nets tonight, in a rivalry that has lost so much juice that it was literally taken off of the nationally televised scheduled tonight (cutting the Knicks’ amount of nationally televised games from 3 to 2).

The Nets are playing strong ball, going 16-13 while playing without Kyrie Irving for quite some time and playing without Caris Lavert for a while now, too, as Spencer Dinwiddie has played so well that you’d have to imagine that the Nets could get quite a haul if they were willing to trade him when Irving returns (as Irving and Dinwiddie don’t exactly have complementary games). Obviously, with Irving’s injury history, it probably makes more sense to just hold on to Dinwiddie as a safety precaution.

The Knicks will be playing without Dennis Smith Jr. and Marcus Morris and Taj Gibson continue to be questionable.

The Warriors won last night, so the Knicks could probably afford a win, so beating the Nets would be nice, provided Mitch or Barrett were the reason for the win, of course.

Let’s go! Knicks?

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95 thoughts to “2019-20 Game Thread: Knicks @ Nets”

  1. The mind is a strange thing, men.
    We must begin by asking it…
    …”What is losing?”
    Losing is a disease…
    …as contagious as polio.
    Losing is a disease…
    …as contagious as syphilis.
    Losing is a disease…
    …as contagious as bubonic plague…
    … attacking one…
    … but infecting all.

    But curable.

  2. The problem with reading the Knicks’ tea leaves is that they’re drinking shitty bodega coffee.

  3. We’re so shit that it’s pretty cool to still be in the league !
    If i were ASilver I’d send us to the GLeague !

  4. Mitch is very Mitchy tonight

    I’ll agree when he picks up his 5th foul by halftime

    Lotto pick watch:

    2-10, 2 FTA, 8 points

  5. Julius looks a lot better under miller.

    He’s definitely using him less moronically than Fiz did.

  6. Fiz thought he was a point forward. Instead he was a turnover machine

    Who in the world would ever look at Julius Randle and think, “Point forward”? It was oh so very stupid. Glad to see him lighting the Nets up. Maybe someone will offer the Knicks something good for him!

  7. Making Randle your point-forward is like buying a loaded Honda Accord and thinking, “damn, I spent a lot on this, so maybe I should make some extra money by hauling freight with it or racing it at the track.”

    Randle’s good at a few things, but if you try and make him do too much, you’ll be disappointed.

  8. Randle’s good at a few things, but if you try and make him do too much, you’ll be disappointed.

    Precisely. It still boggles my mind that they thought he was suddenly going to be an entirely different player for…reasons?

  9. I just can’t get enthused for Randle and Morris wins. I mean, if it helps the Knicks trade them for something good, sure, but they won’t, so it’s sort of a meh game, overall.

    I do like them beating the Nets, though. I just wish it wasn’t another Randle/Morris win.

  10. I sure as hell hope the Knicks look to trade Julius Randle and Marcus Morris. These guys should be playing for the Blazers or Lakers.

  11. I just can’t imagine the knicks would want to hang on to either especially if they get a good offer

  12. At least Mitch has been pretty good, otherwise this is a worst case scenario type of game.

  13. Sorry, I’m not taking a late first round pick for Randle. Maybe in a 3 way deal we can do better?

  14. I love seeing kd and kyrie looking sullen from the bench

    i was up in the air on whether to check and see if league pass added the game (it wasn’t listed this morning) – this comment alone makes me wanna find and watch the game, from beginning to end…

  15. Interestingly it seems like the Nets have enough fans to keep most of the Knicks fans out of Barclays. Damn quiet.

  16. So Luka came back, the Mavs are winning but Porzingis is 4/14… trade that slovenian scrub!!

  17. At least Mitch has been pretty good, otherwise this is a worst case scenario type of game.

    Yeah, that’s the silver lining of this game. That and, of course, seeing the Nets lose.

  18. I’m just worried about these KAT rumors. Not that we’ll actually trade Mitch for KAT, but
    it makes me feel like the FO doesn’t realize Mitchell Robinson should be untouchable in trades. He’s coming around on the fouling trouble and he’s making no money for the next 3 years.

  19. It is funny. I thought KP was having a much greater effect just from watching. 1-7 from 2 point range, how does that happen?

  20. I don’t get that trade for the Lakers. They give up their #1 SG in minutes played for a guy to replace the backup SF/PF they have to ship out as well. I don’t think Kuzma’s helping them much, but Danny Green is. When you have LeBron and AD, all you need is competence on both ends of the floor. Bullock is a dud and Hood’s career is probably toast.

  21. I’m just worried about these KAT rumors. Not that we’ll actually trade Mitch for KAT, but
    it makes me feel like the FO doesn’t realize Mitchell Robinson should be untouchable in trade

    I’m a huge Mitch fan but he should not be the thing stopping you from getting Towns. The myriad draft picks are the real sticking point for me.

  22. Here’s my reasoning for why the Lakers would do it:

    – Marcus Morris is better than Danny Green at shooting 3s and gives them cap space, and LeBron James doesn’t give a damn about no Kyle Kuzma.

    -The Lakers as currently constructed know they can’t beat the Clippers in a seven game series. Trading for Marcus Morris shuffles the deck on a team with limited LeBron time and keeps Marcus Morris from the Clippers who can realistically offer a better package (you know, one with a first round pick).

    – Reggie Bullock, when last seen, gave you a rough estimate of what Danny Green gives you and should be ready come playoff time.

    -They have to believe nobody will trade actual assets for Andre Iguodala and that if Green is gone, they could offer him a role as a starter after Memphis gives up and waives him. Essentially, you’re moving Kuz and Green for Iguodala, Marcus Morris, and Reggie Bullock.

    That’s my Knicks colored logic that lands us Kyle Kuzma and an extra 1RP.

  23. Does anyone have any indication that the team is shopping Randle?

    Newsday reported it a week or so ago, with Steve Popper saying, “an NBA source said it is believed that the Knicks would be open to moving Randle, though he has the contract locked in for next season.”

  24. I doubt the Knicks move Randle. I think they’ll hold him till next year and keep trying to work him in with Mitch or hope his 3s start falling.

  25. I doubt the Knicks move Randle. I think they’ll hold him till next year and keep trying to work him in with Mitch or hope his 3s start falling.

    I tend to believe they’ll hold on to him, as well. However, there’s at least a chance that they might deal him simply because other teams might be tricked into wanting him.

  26. I don’t understand that trade for the Knicks at all… We give up Randle, Morris, and Bullock for 1 first round pick??? Hard pass on Kuzma. Even if he fits next to Mitch in some sense, Kuz is not that young and not that good.

    We should be able to land a 1st for each of Morris, Randle, and Bullock or at least 1 high first and 1 low first either for their talent or for taking on a multi-year albatross in the exchange. If not, let them expire. I’d probably take 2 seconds over Kuzma too.

  27. I don’t see Bullock being worth a first, but yes, I think they’ve got to get a first for Morris and they should be able to get a first for Randle, too, if they’re willing to deal him. Possibly even more, since Randle’s contract is so team-friendly. Man, doesn’t that just beat all? They finally get a fairly young player signed to a team-friendly contract and even then it doesn’t really fit because of the fit with the team’s roster (namely Mitch).

  28. would they?

    Or would we have to include MitchRob? I draw the line there. KAT is having an awesome season, but he has nowhere near the effect MitchRob has defensively. Mitch’s per game stats aren’t necessarily eye popping like KAT’s are, but even if his advanced numbers didn’t look as good as they do, there is no denying the effect he has on the game once he gets in.

    What say you?

  29. I missed the game to see a one-man show of A Christmas Carol with the missus at an old mansion in Tarrytown. When I looked at the score I thought I was being haunted by the ghost of knicksmas past circa 1990’s.

  30. Sorry, I’m not taking a late first round pick for Randle.

    It may be an overreaction to a few good games, but I agree.

    I think the plan with Randle should be to rehabilitate his game under Miller and trade him either this summer or next season. His contract structure is valuable, too. He’s an asset I would like more capable hands than Mills to be in charge of him. Save him for (god-willing) Masai.

  31. Interestingly it seems like the Nets have enough fans to keep most of the Knicks fans out of Barclays.

    This iteration of the Knicks is definitely not one that makes you want to go to another arena to support your team. It’s embarrassing enough to support them at MSG.

  32. @57,

    Lol Totes there is no way a Darryl Morey disciple accepts that trade for his star player. If you want KAT in a trade, at the bare minimum it’s going to cost you 2 1RPs and Mitchell Robinson. The Knicks, despite being terrible, are asset rich relative to the rest of the league. We have two Dallas picks, all of our 1RPs, the Charlotte 2RPs this year and next year, Mitchell Robinson, RJ Barrett, Julius Randle, and like $50M in expiring contracts.

    We also wouldn’t be bidding against a truncated market because KAT just signed a 5 year deal. Literally everybody would be in on it. Part of me thinks Rosas isn’t dumb enough to trade KAT, nor do I believe ownership would let him do it, but you’d never get more for Karl Towns than you will now. You can legitimately ask for 3-4 1RPs (and demand unprotected picks be included), a stud prospect or two, cap space, and you may even find somebody willing to take back Wiggins. You don’t think Portland would take Wiggins back if it meant they get Towns next to Dame and CJ? Milwaukee would give up every pick possible to put KAT next to Giannis, and nobody has to worry about losing KAT for at least 4 more seasons.

    In short, if push comes to shove and KAT asks for a trade, you have to offer the house. There is no way you get away with keeping Mitchell Robinson, and you’d be lucky to keep RJ Barrett. Rosas will be looking for the same type of deal Sam Presti got.

  33. I had to watch the game on YES, so I got a different set of announcers. What a difference. A lot of times they wouldn’t bother to announce substitions or even say who just scored. Somehow they eere just chatting without making sure they were calling the game cleanly. The lady did comment that the Knicks have a big front line which made it hard for the Nets to score inside and that when they tried outside shots they didn’t hit them. They did make Robinson’s alley-oop from Ntilikina the dunk of the game.

  34. This TNT game might start the long overdue Porzingis dialogue

    https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2019/12/27/21038770/mavericks-head-coach-rick-carlisle-schools-nba-on-tnt-post-ups-kristaps-porzingis

    I agree.

    This issue a very good example of the mental illness so pervasive in our society on virtually everything these days. Everyone sees everything in black and white. No one sees the rainbow in between. Hell, at this point, I’d settle for finding someone that can see the grey.

    Carlisle (and Haraobis Vulgaris who was whining about this for years before joining Dallas) are obviously correct that KP should be taking a of lot 3s instead of mid range garbage. When he’s taking sensible ones and at his best, he’s efficient enough to make it an EV+ shot. He’s also dragging a big man away from the rim. That helps Doncic penetrate and score inside (where he’s a terrific finisher) and creates open looks for others if a double team comes. That’s why Carlise is arguing that when KP is parked beyond the 3 point line, Dallas’s offensive efficiency at a team level is the highest in NBA history. It’s partly because of the spacing.

    But there’s an obvious flip side. That’s what Webber, Shaq, Kenny, and Barkley are saying.

    When you have a big mismatch inside, posting up can be a VERY efficient play even if posting up in general is not such a great play. You can also get more offensive rebounds and easy put backs.

    Obviously both sides have a point.

    The issue with KP (who has a lot of mismatches inside) has been that he’s too physically weak to be effective out of the post. Also, playing out of the post is an actual skill that is developed over many years. He’s way stronger now than he was and would probably finish better now, but he’s no more skilled at posting up all the other big men that don’t learn how to play out of the post anymore. So that’s a offsetting issue.

    continued…

  35. Some actual game observations: Robinson did more than just block shots. His defense in the paint altered a lot of shots without fouling and produced Nets misses. Kadeem Allen got to play. He didn’t do much. At first I thought Smith was in the dog house, but it turns out he has a strained oblique. Ntilikina had foul trouble, which cut down his minutes. Randle and Morison both took their shots without dribbling too much, which was nice to see. The Nets didn’t double team them much either. When they play like that you think wow, the Knicks could be a good team.

  36. Sorry, maybe I’m missing something here but why would Julius Randle have positive value at all, let alone be worth a first round pick? The league seemed totally lukewarm on him as a FA (notice that he currently plays for the Knicks) when he was a free agent, then he stinks up the joint for a few months and now somebody is going to trade a first round pick for him? Without the 3-pointer he’s an undersized C who can’t protect the rim, aka the kind of player every good team is going away from. I’m not sure I see a single team where I think they’d even be interested in taking him purely for expirings, let alone getting an asset back. Can anyone name a team that they think he would make sense on?

  37. Isn’t Miller 3-4 so far as coach? I’m not sure this team is trading anyone for draft picks, in fact, I think they’re just as likely to trade their youngsters for a disgruntled star if that opportunity presents itself.

    Morris, Randle, and Elf, when healthy, are decent enough 3, 4, and 5 options on a 5 to 8 playoff seed. I’d be very afraid of the front office trading an RJ/Mitch/picks package for a star at this point.

    Maybe it’s my Knick PTSD, but there’s not gonna be a real rebuild in NY.

  38. In short, if push comes to shove and KAT asks for a trade, you have to offer the house.

    I hate that Berman tricked us into having this conversation. But since we are…

    Why would you offer the house for KAT? Forget about how good he is. What’s the plan after you give up Barrett, Robinson, our top 5 2020 pick, one of our picks in 2021, our pick in 2022, and one of our 2023 picks?

    How good do you think a team of KAT + flotsam + jetsam is going to be? We’re going to give up all that, be terrible, and then hope free agents will bail us out?

  39. part 2

    What BOTH sides are missing is that KP is doing a terrible job of being the #2 option right now and Doncic is not helping him at all. KP’s scoring, rebounding, and efficiency were all better WITHOUT Doncic on the court. He’s a better player with Brunson. That’s preposterous, but I believe it’s easy to explain. (I watch every single Dallas game).

    Everyone (other than Carlise) is screaming at KP to be more aggressive, but as the #2 option (and sometimes #3 when Hardaway is doing his craziness) he gets way fewer touches with Doncic. He’s translating that into forcing more shots when he finally gets the ball. He reverts into the version of KP when he was the #1 option while Hardaway was out. Every time he gets the ball he feels compelled to create or shoot. He’s throwing up 3-4 rookie level trash shots every night. Some of his shots would make rookie Knox shake his head.

    Playing off the ball is a skill every bit as much as posting up, creating for yourself off the dribble, etc..

    He has to learn how to move without the ball better and get to HIS spots on the court and close to the rim on cuts, rolls etc… so he gets more easy shots. Doncic has to figure out how to get him the ball in his spots. KP also has to learn to pass out of situations where he drives into a wall of people inside (he made 2 very good plays like that yesterday).

    He should be trying to become a 7’3″ version of Gallinari on offense (shoot 3s/draw fouls and ALSO get putbacks, lobs etc..), except that he can ALSO defend his man adequately, protect the rim at an elite level, and be a plus help defender.

    He’s got the defensive side down and has the skillset to be a force on offense too if he and Doncic can figure it out and he can shake the rust. Missing 1 1/2 years or not, you can’t play like a 24 year old rookie. That’s what he’s doing now.

  40. I had to watch the game on YES, so I got a different set of announcers. What a difference.

    i’m not sure if he’s still doing the games but ian eagle is probably top 3 or 5 in terms of play by play….. the nets have always had weak color guys but ian has always been pretty good….

  41. Julius Randle 3p percentage is garbage.
    Yesterday he made 5 out of 9 (15 of his 33points) and also made a few tough fadeaways and now he’s a stud ?
    And we won’t take a low seed 1RP for him ?

    W #@$ T &4+¥¶© F !!!!

  42. Also trading KAT for Knicks-peanuts suggestions are ridiculous.
    But pretty entertaining.
    Keep feeding the trade machine !
    It’s fun !

  43. By the way, Doncic is not playing much smarter than KP even if he’s better.

    He’s just a stat stuffing variation of dummy that doesn’t play much defense.

    His skill at getting to the rim, finishing, and drawing fouls is super elite. So he’s always going to be an efficient scorer. But he also takes 2-3 bad shots and commits 1-2 foolish TOs every game trying to do too much on just one side. That’s why for all his stat stuffing scoring, rebounding, and assists the team is not tremendously better with him on the court (even adjusted for competition and who was on the court).

    With Jalen Brunson on court the Mavs are +3.26 (Offense +1.46; Defense +1.69) according to NBA +/-)

    With Doncic on court the Mavs are +3.12. (Offense 4.29; Defense – 1.17)

    The gap on offense is obvious, but it could be larger within that spread offense given his skills getting to the rim and drawing fouls. Just stop the idiotic 3s and other nonsense and D Up.

  44. My Knicks summary is much easier and shorter.

    1. the management sucks
    2. the team sucks
    3. you’d have to be an idiot to want to play here
    4. Payton starting is helping a little (really any time DSJr doesn’t play that’s a huge plus)
    5. Miller is better than Fizdale, so we suck a little less with him

  45. i think you would have to be crazy to say no thanks to KAT… i love mitch but KAT is the best center in the league and will be a top 5 player for the next 10 years….

  46. That’s why for all his stat stuffing scoring, rebounding, and assists the team is not tremendously better with him on the court (even adjusted for competition and who was on the court).

    That’s going to get a “citation needed” from me. He’s 22nd in RPM, 1st in BPM, 3rd in PIPM, 5th in RAPTOR. What are you looking at to conclude that the team isn’t better with him on the court once you adjust?

  47. Are Steve & Perry staying for another season? Feels that way.

    I’m afraid they’re going to try to add all-star player Like DeRozan or Beal for something like Mitch, Knox, Portis & picks.

    There is probably a 10% chance, that Steve Mills goes double or nothing & gives THjr a 4yr, $75m offer too.

  48. Ian Begley is reporting several Knicks are asking for a trade privately. There’s a shock. Doh!

    I assume that means guys like Portis, Ellington, and maybe Gibson. But it could also mean Trier, Dotson, and Dennis Smith (we can only hope).

    I would guess Payton is probably happy now that he’s starting, but he can’t be happy playing on a shit team and it doesn’t make much sense unless The Knicks are thinking in terms of him being our starting PG next year also. Otherwise, what’s the point of winning an extra game or two with a PG you aren’t bringing back. I’m more than happy with giving him a fair shot because I think he’s OK and can get better. But God only knows what the Knicks are thinking.

    Morris should be unhappy, but he seems fine with losing on a badly managed team (why I don’t know).

    The real test is going to be how long it takes until one or more of Mitch, Barrett, Knox, Frank (and Trier if he hasn’t already asked) join KP, get frustrated, and want out.

    It’s not going to change until we have competent basketball people in charge that value players properly, fit them together properly, and develop their skills. Mills/Perry and the rest of the swamp has to be drained.

  49. That’s going to get a “citation needed” from me. He’s 22nd in RPM, 1st in BPM, 3rd in PIPM, 5th in RAPTOR. What are you looking at to conclude that the team isn’t better with him on the court once you adjust?

    It’s just something you wouldn’t understand unless you have a very high basketball IQ. Also raw plus/minus and horse racing.

  50. Randle had excellent numbers the past 2 years. Unlike FA, we can take back contracts so more teams will be in play for Randle.

    If we don’t get a decent 1st rounder this year, hold him for next year or the year after. Maybe he starts shooting better now that we have an actual PG.

    Bullock may not fetch a 1st rounder himself, but I think you take the chance a team gets desperate for a SG. Otherwise, let him rehab and trade him next year.

    I think worse case scenario is Pills thinking Bullock will get us to the playoffs (he borderline might get us just outside over a full season). So we end up holding Morris and passing on favorable deals.

  51. That’s going to get a “citation needed” from me. He’s 22nd in RPM, 1st in BPM, 3rd in PIPM, 5th in RAPTOR. What are you looking at to conclude that the team isn’t better with him on the court once you adjust?

    I didn’t say they aren’t better with him on the court.

    I said they aren’t much better with him on the court than than they are with Brunson. To me that is preposterous given the gap in their offensive skill sets. But the explanation is likely Doncic’s poor shot selection from 3, over aggressiveness leading to extra bad TOs, he and KP not working well together and Doncic’s negative DEFENSE.

    KP seems to be better with Brunson because he gets more looks and has less of a tendency to force bad shots up as he is when Doncic is dominating everything and he’s begging for the ball.

    I am mostly looking at on/off data, NBA real +/-, lineup data and what I am seeing on the court. I watch every Dallas game.

    What’s happening on the court is reality. Stats are our attempt to capture that reality and value it, but they are incomplete and can’t handle the interrelationships and whys very well. IMHO, you don’t want to start thinking in terms of the stats being reality and what’s going on on the court is just incidental. It’s the other way around. The stats are helping you measure what you are seeing and trying to understand.

    http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2020.html

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/porzikr01/lineups/2020

  52. It’s just something you wouldn’t understand unless you have a very high basketball IQ. Also raw plus/minus and horse racing.

    lmao

    It’s so much easier to laugh at stuff like this when you don’t respect the opinion of the person it’s coming from because he doesn’t know anything about basketball and doesn’t even read what you are saying or try to understand it.

  53. I am mostly looking at on/off data, NBA real +/-, lineup data and what I am seeing on the court. I watch every Dallas game.

    I should add, I also look the detailed stats of each player’s individual skills in a kind of spreadsheet form, but part of that also comes from watching and not just the boxscore. As an example, I think you have to know WHY a player’s 3p% is what it is and not just what it is. If I did this for a living, I’d get ridiculously detailed on every player, but this is a hobby. So some players I know very well and others not at all.

  54. I’ve always suspected that Strat’s bizarre Luka hang up is based on Luka stealing Porzingis’ thunder so I’m glad he just confirmed it

  55. If you want to go after Doncic’s defense, that’s legit. He’s bad on that end, but he’s also 20 years old and carrying a completely uprecedented offensive load for a player that age.

    If you want to go after his offensive game, you’re a fool, because there’s simply no getting around the fact that he has the ball all the time for a team that is historically good on offense. You can dig a whole lot deeper if you want of course, but there’s no way to reconcile those two facts without concluding he’s one of the best offensive players in the league and if you’re looking at some piece of information that you think is telling you otherwise you’re probably reading it wrong to be honest.

  56. Truth lies between the lines….of the box score.

    Not a single person on this site would disagree with this.

    The issue here is that you have the following players:

    .611 TS%, 37.2 USG%, 13.2 AST/100
    .504 TS%, 25.5 USG%, 2.2 AST/100

    And a certain poster is trying to argue that the gap in offensive value is not enormous.

    Talk all you want about defense. Yeah, Doncic is basically James Harden. Porzingis contests a lot of shots. That would be fine if, in the same breath, the hot air about offensive value weren’t blown about the room.

    Yeah, Doncic would be better if he never missed tough shots and didn’t turn the ball over on account of his prodigious creativity. Wow! Analysis!

  57. Yeah, we reached peak homerism levels and its just such a bad discussion to have. Even Mavericks fans would fucking die laughing if they read this sort of shit.

  58. I was really amazed as I watched the Mavs just how poorly KP was actually shooting. The eye test had him dominating and I think he is more valuable than the stat sheet shows. He hit shots at memorable, high stress moments and pulled down tons of rebounds. He disrupted on defense and moved the ball on offense. The two point shots will fall.

    Overall, he seems like largely the same player he was with us. He’s part of a good situation and they value him. Zach Randolph, Jamal Crawford, David Lee, etc. All guys with holes in their games who were valued correctly in a different uniform.

  59. The Knicks can make trades or not as far as I’m concerned. I think they have a pretty good roster. Maybe not as balanced as it could be but there’s talent. If I make a trade I’d be interested to see if there’s a point guard for Randle or Morris.

    Either way I can see Randle and Morris being pretty good for quite a while playing for a playoff contender. The difference will be that they’ll have Joel Embid, or Giannis.

    Knicks have some nice pieces 2-15. Whether it’s through the draft or FA they need to get their best player.

  60. I think he is more valuable than the stat sheet shows.

    He hit shots at memorable, high stress moments

    c’mon guys

  61. I get that criticism. Still, Mavs offense works and KP is in the middle of it. He gets tons of touches and it seems like good shots that, that game, didn’t go in. Most games are like that LOL but it seems like a functioning situation where he’s a valued piece. I guess I’m just saying that, if you have Luka, the other pieces can have flaws. I mean, KPs shot to beat the half time buzzer was not even defended.

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