2019-20 Game Thread: Knicks @ Heat – Can Mike Miller Get Over .500?

The Knicks have a tough matchup tonight against a Miami Heat team that has put together quite a strong team based around underrated prospects, plus, of course, Jimmy Butler and Bam Adebayo, who was a lottery pick in 2017 (few things will make you feel worse as a Knick fan than to look at the last two lottery picks in the 2017 draft, Donovan Mitchell and Adebayo, while the Knicks had the #8 and #9 picks. This is not even taking into account Jarrett Allen and John Collins, both taken out of the lottery in the first round).

If Mike Miller could pull this off and actually have a winning record as the Knick coach? Wow, that’d be something.

And it’s funny how much of it has been about simply not having a moronic defensive scheme.

Let’s go, Knicks!

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109 thoughts to “2019-20 Game Thread: Knicks @ Heat – Can Mike Miller Get Over .500?”

  1. The fiancee got t-boned on the 110 last week because a driver didn’t heed the coned-off HOV lanes and rushed to merge. 

    sorry to hear what happened to the missus…not that any place is a good place to have an accident – the 110 though – yikes…

    I try to avoid that road at all costs, particularly around the downtown area…it’s like getting stuck in death race 2000…the on/off “ramps” are like 50 feet long…it’s just crazy…

  2. never spent much time around big sur… highway one just messes with me too much in that area…all that winding back and forth and the drop off to the ocean screws with my equilibrium a bunch…

    I spent a total of about 6 years living in the monterey area (4 in monterey next to MPC and another couple over in marina)…

    I’ve never experienced another place that felt so much like home…an afternoon hiking in carmel valley or kicking it down at the beach in carmel feels like you took a three day vacation…

    read one time that there are an abundance of negative icons in the area which helps create a sense of well being…

    I have no idea what that even means – but, I believe it…

    already trying to figure out how I can downsize enough to make the money work when I call it quits here at work…property values are pretty steep (yeah, you NYC folks don’t know nothing about that now, do you :)

  3. We honeymooned in Big Sur, that’s my favorite place in the world. I would love to retire in the Monterey Bay area and be close to Big Sur.

    I spent two days in big sur this summer. Unfortunately so did a massive fog.

    Heard it was still there a week later.

  4. It ain’t a vacation unless you can be naked for a consecutive 24 hours

    i need this t-shirt…

    put me down with everyone else in thinking we are gonna get stomped tonight…hopefully at least mitch does some more freaky mitch stuff…

    imagine if we had gone for kemba and jimmy butler, and gotten them…hell, we’d still probably have dizfail though – so, we’d be exactly where we are now…

  5. I have no idea what we’ve talking about here knicks related, but I too honeymooned in Big Sur (today is my 22nd wedding anniversary). It remains, all these years later, the most beautiful place I’ve ever been. The entire central coast is magic. Like JK, I’d love to live up there full time one day. (Hubert, it’s a place to go for a few months or a few years, not a few days:)

  6. Let’s have a look how the new model Knicks do against an actual good team. Miami are 11-1 at home so I’ll chalk it up as a W if we beat the spread (-9.5)

  7. happy anniversary donnie :)

    hope you’ve been taken good notes on all the cooking tips and are getting ready to fix up the missus something good – or, better yet – hopefully the missus has been taking good cooking notes all these years and you get to enjoy a fine meal this evening…

    my two hidden gems for the area: Point Lobos and Garland Park…can’t go wrong though simply spending an afternoon with a bagged lunch sitting on a bench along the monterey bay coastal trail watching the people pass by…just gotta keep a watchful eye overhead – cuz, pelican poop ain’t no joke…

  8. The Heat are good. Spolstra’s a really good coach. You can tell by how they play.

  9. Ok so they have 9 assists and 0 turnovers, and we have 0 assists and 4 turnovers. Guess you could say things are goink pretty good.

  10. Elfrid Payton is gonna become the mortal enemy of the crowd who loves to cite Ntilikina’s raw +/-

  11. Gonna check back in the second half this is painful

    …and tomorrow won’t be much better.

  12. Just play Elfrid for 48 mins every other pg is eye gougingly bad

  13. It’s kind of painful watching good teams toy with us. The Heat players have that look like “This is so fucking easy”

  14. Elfrid Payton is gonna become the mortal enemy of the crowd who loves to cite Ntilikina’s raw +/-

    Yeah…. whatever…. its not exactly like Payton lit the joint up playing with the Knicks best player vs the Miami second unit…..

    I’m not sure why they don’t start MR, Payton, Frank, Barrett and Morris. At least they likely wouldn’t give up 39 in the first quarter and could give Morris the green light to fire away with defensive players to make his stats look better.

    Thursday nights at South Beach in the winter…. what a home court advantage…..

  15. kind of glad i checked in on the thread…yeah, this game recording might be a straight delete…

    ouch, just checked the score…

  16. You know who is a quietly good player who had great college numbers? Delon Wright. Never had a below average season and has been great so far this year.

    Also, KP is looking really good….

  17. I’m telling you it’s because they’re free from Luka’s me first ball hoggery and showboating.

  18. Our last three lottery picks have taken 17 FGA and 4 FTA and scored 4 points. Burn this franchise to the ground and start over.

  19. Seeing Duncan Robinson basically be a free Kyle Korver for the Heat reminds me that we’ve done the undrafted flyer thing semi-successfully exactly once (Trier) and we’re now promptly trying to undo it, for some reason

  20. got home and turned on the game in the 4th…

    watching on league pass and the heat announcing crew just made me wanna turn the channel – they were singing the poor fiz song…yeah, he sucked for real…

    what finally convinced me on the salted meat prep technique jowles was you mentioning the fact you don’t want to boil the meat when cooking it…light finally went on then…

  21. Look on the bright side — imagine how bad things would be if they hadn’t got their floor general Elfrid Payton back.

    As to KP, we can rationalize the max overpay all we want, but the Knicks f/d it up royally and got pennies on the dollar for the asset. It’s set them back years. There’s no escaping it.

  22. Trier had a higher ts% this season than Robinson going into this game.

    Well, Bobby Portis gave us the second installment on his contract tonight. That’s something.

  23. Just a reminder that KP is an injury prone league average player earning 158 million dollars over five years and we got two first round picks and the ability to unload salary all for the opportunity cost of not giving him that unconscionable contract

  24. Look on the bright side — imagine how bad things would be if they hadn’t got their floor general Elfrid Payton back.

    We don’t have to imagine, we were 3-14 without him and are 4-8 with him. He ain’t very good, but he’s the only functional point guard on the team and it shows.

    I mean…are you really trying to slang your guy’s performance tonight?

  25. May the words you choose be short and sweet because they may soon be the words you will have to eat….. something……something!

    Elfrid Payton is gonna become the mortal enemy of the crowd who loves to cite Ntilikina’s raw +/-

  26. KP had 22 points, 18 rebounds, 3 blocks, and was +16. The Mavs crushed the 76ers in Philly and the kid is only 24, missed close to 2 years of his development, and isn’t in prime shape yet. I’m sure glad we don’t have him next to Mitch.

  27. KP led the Mavs to decisive back-to-back road wins over the Bucks and Sixers. The Knicks are light years and a million miles away from anything like that. The Mavs have turned it completely around in a season and 30 games, in large measure because of Steve Mills’s clueless generosity.

  28. Kinda telling that y’all have to make it such a point of emphasis every time the $158M man has a good game, no? That’s what he’s supposed to do, like, most games!

  29. Lee would have been off the cap this year.

    Hardaway was a Mills boneheaded overpay, but we would have survived the rebuild with him on the team until he expired. We weren’t going anywhere soon anyway. Plus, with a competent coach as the 3rd option he’s playing more like he did in Atlanta.

    But don’t worry, we got 2 late 1st rounders with an expected value of about bench “role player” that will be able to contribute to a good team in 5 years or so if we are lucky.

  30. The chance one of those first rounders will turn into someone as good as Porzingis is less than 1 in 100. It was a monumentally bad trade. No NBA team trades an asset that valuable after barely shopping him, weeks before the trade deadline, for that paltry a return. It just does not happen. The Knicks are literally the only organization in the association that would do such a thing.

  31. I missed nearly all of the game tonight, but the stats make it look like DSJ outplayed Elfrank Paykina again? Two games in a row? Frank -9, Payton -16, DSJ +10?

    I’m not sure it is good for any of those three guys to be splitting time like tonight: 15, 17, and 14 minutes.

    Can they please move Frank to backup SG (his 3pt. % is creeping up again), start Payton (he is the best PG on the team, flawed though he is) and bring DSJ off the bench at PG? So, yeah, play DSJ and Frank together with Knox and Mitch.

  32. Anyone that couldn’t see KP’s value and potential given where he was in his physical and basketball development at the time he was in NY should have his ID suspended from the forum for a few weeks for not understanding basketball at all.

    29 out of 30 teams would have given him a max on the basketball merits alone without even thinking about it (NY being the only idiots]

    25 teams probably would have given him the max even after the ACL injury if they had the chance. IMO they all would have been right to make that bet and pray for his health.

    He hasn’t played in almost 2 years, was raw as all hell when he got hurt, but he’s still leading a very good Mavs team as the #1 option while Doncic is out. And he’s not anywhere near his peak yet.

    It’s all about health.

    It would be sad if he got hurt and we don’t get to watch him play with Doncic for the next 10 years. When those 2 guys actually learn how to play basketball and get toughened up by playoff experience, they are going to be fun to watch.

  33. Since you’ve apparently already excused him being shitty for the entirety of this season, what’s his stat line gonna look like next year? Or will it take more time than that, meaning he won’t be actually good until year 3 of his $158M deal?

    The dummies who don’t think missing out on the .504 TS% guy for $30M+ AAV is a tragedy want to know!

  34. Julius Randle’s TS% is 17 points better than KP’s and last year it was almost 100 points better. Maybe the Knicks can get KP straight up for Randle. Plus the Mavericks would get out from KP’s awful, onerous contract. Sounds like a no-brainer for them. Let’s give them a call.

  35. Actually 1RPs in the 15-25 range yield a league average or better player with pretty good regularity…and you don’t have to pay that player 156 million and hope that his brittle body held together by chewing gum and safety pins comes apart again.

    KP is mediocre guys. The Mavs are winning because of Luka (and Kleber, Brunson, and Wright). With the way he plays basketball (i.e. idiotically) the only way he’s going to get better is through year to year 3pt variance

  36. This Porzingis discussion kind of reminds me of a debate I have with my Celtics fan friend about Jayson Tatum. Every time Tatum has a good game I hear about what a budding star he is, and then the next game he goes 6-18.

    Meanwhile, he’s sporting a .516 TS % (which is still better than KP’s .504)

    But I guess Porzingis is finally getting his legs under him

  37. I sure wish strat and E were actually managing the Mavs, then we would have a chance to trade for Doncic so they can build around true superstar Kristaps Porzingis. The Mavs are 2-2 without Doncic but man, the team is looking so much better without that ball hog kid!

  38. You’ve got to love E’s logic. If Payton sucks, Frank must be a really good PG. As if literally anything Payton does reflects on Frank.

    Frank managed 0 Asts and 2 TOs in 16 mins
    Payton managed 4 Asts and 2 TOs in 18 mins

    But clearly Frank is a better PG than Payton.

  39. I sure wish strat and E were actually managing the Mavs, then we would have a chance to trade for Doncic so they can build around true superstar Kristaps Porzingis. The Mavs are 2-2 without Doncic but man, the team is looking so much better without that ball hog kid!

    Better than a chance, we could trade Frank for Doncic straight up!

  40. looking forward to that wiz game on monday…brooklyn than the wiz again…

    miller has had a few games to think it over, I wonder how long before he changes the line up…up…

  41. KP had 22 points, 18 rebounds, 3 blocks, and was +16. The Mavs crushed the 76ers in Philly and the kid is only 24, missed close to 2 years of his development, and isn’t in prime shape yet.

    Yes and when Ruruland only points to Melo’s good games, Melo also seems amazing.

  42. Actually 1RPs in the 15-25 range yield a league average or better player with pretty good regularity…

    did you just make that up silky…that sounds kinda random…

  43. You’ve got to love E’s logic. If Payton sucks, Frank must be a really good PG. As if literally anything Payton does reflects on Frank.

    Frank managed 0 Asts and 2 TOs in 16 mins
    Payton managed 4 Asts and 2 TOs in 18 mins

    But clearly Frank is a better PG than Payton.

    No one is arguing Payton isn’t a marginally better point guard today than frank after 10,000 minutes in the NBA. Most here think Frank is best suited for the off guard position where he is an excellent entry passer and totally unselfish.

    But the notion that a guy who isn’t markedly better than he was 5 years ago is some sort of massive upgrade is just nonsense. You also cheery picked tonight’s stats to make a point. You forgot to mention he was also a crisp -16 in 18 minutes and shot a toasty 1-5 from the field and bricked 2 of 4 free throws.

  44. KP had 22 points, 18 rebounds, 3 blocks, and was +16. The Mavs crushed the 76ers in Philly and the kid is only 24, missed close to 2 years of his development, and isn’t in prime shape yet. I’m sure glad we don’t have him next to Mitch.

    Lamenting KP is such a moot exercise… Dolan’s Razor makes it clear, no matter how good KP becomes, he never would have become that good on the Knicks.

  45. Jeez you guys… THJ was actually the difference maker for the Mavs, draining 7-11 threes. He’s currently a better player than KP, who had a fine enough game but was obviously bested by Embiid.

    The one that really hurts is Gilgeous-Alexander with 32 pts. But hey, at least Knox is a force!

  46. No one is arguing Payton isn’t a marginally better point guard today than frank after 10,000 minutes in the NBA. Most here think Frank is best suited for the off guard position where he is an excellent entry passer and totally unselfish.

    But the notion that a guy who isn’t markedly better than he was 5 years ago is some sort of massive upgrade is just nonsense. You also cheery picked tonight’s stats to make a point. You forgot to mention he was also a crisp -16 in 18 minutes and shot a toasty 1-5 from the field and bricked 2 of 4 free throws.

    It’s almost as if I addressed my post to a specific person, E, who has repeatedly calls for Frank to be used as a PG and called him a “floor general” and who repeatedly denigrates any non-Frank PG for (a) playing well; (b) playing poorly; or (c) generally being available.

    Also, Payton is significantly better than Frank by literally any metric.

  47. Also, Payton is significantly better than Frank by literally any metric.

    As it has been aid many times here Frank is not a point guard, but that being said after 10,000 minutes of refining an NBA game Payton is hardly a significant upgrade.

  48. Honestly, I was sad to see KP go…but I don’t think KP would’ve developed well in NY.
    And he didn’t want to play here. He saw no plan. The plan was a Hail Mary we have lots of money we can get a great player to come here…but no one wants to come here.
    And when they are here, they see dysfunction.

    On a side note: I loved this site. And not always for the basketball. Tips on vacations spots. Tips on how to make French toast. Places to get the best pizza, or whatever. It was evident many years ago, but there are some pretty smart, cultured and engaged people here.
    Thanks to you all, and Happy Holidays!

  49. Terrible game. The Heat played beautifully in the first half. We were atrocious. Today should be the last hellish day of 2019, so maybe tomorrow there will be a recap :)

    Sorry for being quite absent guys

    Never stop being so amazing though!

  50. Frank is a massive negative at any position and by any metric spanning 3,000 NBA minutes. He’s not a rotation player on any team. Payton is. Please find any metric by which Payton is only marginally better.

    Even at SG Frank can’t shoot or score at all. Saying he’s “unselfish” is a euphemism for incapable of doing anything. Frank turns the ball over nearly as often as Payton despite only being required to hand the ball off. Frank has the game of Jared Jeffries.

  51. I only watched the first half of this game. The only promising thing I saw was Rebecca Harlow’s comment on Barrett. She said she she asked him what did he do to celebrate after scoring a career high in the previous game. He said he went to the gym and worked out or worked on his game. That is fine with me.

  52. RJ’s shot looks painfully broken. Any path to a productive NBA player has to go through that ugly-ass shot. I’m worry that it’s not a form thing but a hand-eye coordination thing.

  53. I did read the Posting and Toasting article about the Knicks improved and simpler defensive schemes and I read the comment at the top about no longer having a moronic defensive scheme, but I disagree. Since Miller took over our offense has moved up to 28th in the league from dead last, but our defense has dropped from something like 22nd in the league to something like 28th. These are significant moves given that Miller has coached only seven of the twenty nine games in these statistics. Our offense is better under Miller but our defense is worse. This matches my eye test. I can see a more fluid offense with less isos. On defense I see no improvement at all and opponents seem to score pretty easily. Maybe that is noise, but I doubt it.

  54. I’ve been a little quiet on RJ because he’s a pretty confusing prospect. I tend to think that scoring efficiency is mostly irrelevant for very young guard/wing prospects…but he sure is pushing the limits of that. I don’t know how many examples there are of guys shooting miserably both from 3 and the line and eventually putting it all together.

    On the other hand, he does seem to be fairly competent defensively already and does less chucker stuff than I thought (though he still gets in that mode from time to time). He seems to be a legitimately plus rebounder (grabs some contested ones) too.

    I’m kind of at a loss when it comes to comps. Monta Ellis, but bigger? That dude was actually fairly good before he got in a moped accident.

  55. That Morant play is absolutely sick. He’s only 20 and is 8th in the league in AST%. Definitely not an elite player yet, but damn, the difference between a guy like that and whatever chaff we run at PG is stark as hell.

  56. I’m kind of at a loss when it comes to comps. Monta Ellis, but bigger? That dude was actually fairly good before he got in a moped accident.

    So what you’re saying is, like Monta Ellis, we’ll draft the actual savior of this franchise 3.5 years from now, that guy will be injury prone for 3 years, but he’ll win a championship after his 6th year? Sign me up for this weird long-ass fantasy timeline.

  57. Anthony Bonner
    December 21, 2019 at 11:14 am

    Between you, me (Hubert Davis), and Lavor Postell we’ve got 3/5 of the All-Obscure-Knicks lineup on this board.

  58. It seems like the NBA is set to go forward with their version of an FA Cup and that’s pretty awesome.

    American sports is all about playoffs but association football tables and cups with relegation and promotion is the shit.

  59. You guys should see me play pickup ball. I’m so unselfish. When somebody passes the ball to me, I think to myself “this ball would really be better off with somebody else” and I frantically look around for somebody who will take it off my hands and then I throw it to them and drift away from the action and pray that nobody passes me the ball again. I mean I could jam a finger. If I get the ball and nobody is standing anywhere near me I might throw it at the basket and miss. But that’s rare.

    I add a lot of value with my unselfishness. Some would say I am quite the floor general.

  60. I wish we had something to trade for Ben Simmons. Feel like Philly is getting ready to do something rash.

  61. Some very smart pickup team will trade for JK47 and his true greatness will be unleashed

  62. as for the offense/defense how much of that is something like scheme changes and how much is, say, playing Payton more than Ntilikina?

  63. I’m not sure why they don’t start MR, Payton, Frank, Barrett and Morris.

    This is what I’ve been asking for since Payton came back. That’s the most obvious lineup to go with.

    The answer as to why they don’t is Julius Randle.

  64. Anyone that couldn’t see KP’s value and potential given where he was in his physical and basketball development at the time he was in NY should have his ID suspended from the forum for a few weeks for not understanding basketball at all.

    Strat, seeing his potential and being willing to pay 5 years $158mm for it are two different things.

    You get that, right?

    If KP had been in line for a contract that paid him for his potential, which would be something like the 4 year, $80mm deal Giannis signed, I bet you everyone on this board would have wanted him.

  65. as for the offense/defense how much of that is something like scheme changes and how much is, say, playing Payton more than Ntilikina?

    That is a good question. I will punt and say it’s both. Clearly, having Peyton back helps the offense. But I also note that when the team does do an iso on offense it is a better matchup than it used to be and is much more often one on one instead of on on two or three. I doubt that is Peyton’s effect. The plays out of timeouts seem better, and Mitch is fouling less and scoring more, which also isn’t due to Payton.

    On defense, since Peyton has mostly taken minutes from Smith and not Ntilikina, it’s hard to envisage this made the defense worse. Possibly Robinson’s new found restraint has something to do with it, but that is a weak reason, so basically I’m at a loss for why our defense is so much worse.

  66. College basketball is so fucking awful. I’m watching the Kansas-Villanova game (mostly because my son is a Nova grad) and the halftime score is 23-23. The 2 teams are a combined 7-29 from 3 point range.

    Just some really fugly basketball.

  67. I have a friend who likes college b-ball a lot and he sent me a text this week to let me know there was a game in which a team had only 3 guys who scored.

  68. The problem with the anti-KP argument is that you can’t just go into the marketplace anytime you want and spent the money you don’t spend on KP on something better.

    He makes $27 million this year and the salary cap is $109 million, plus the Knicks had Bird rights on him. His money wasn’t crowding out anything else they would be able to do (beyond the KD/Kyrie pipe dream).

    Payton and Morris for KP works under the salary cap. Does anyone here actually think the Mavs would be better off trading KP for Payton and Morris’s expirings and waiting for a “better” max player to come along down the road? They would get laughed out of the NBA if they made that trade, and rightfully so.

    No one in the NBA EVER trades that valuable an asset in such a haphazard, rushed, political way, without the asset being shopped around for weeks, offers leaked to try to smoke out better offers, etc. It never happens. No NBA team is that irresponsible with that valuable an asset.

  69. feeling lucky today…gave the godson (8) the option between frozen 2 and star wars…

    told him he’d probably enjoy frozen a whole lot more…I think it worked – he chose star wars…

  70. The problem with the anti-KP argument is that you can’t just go into the marketplace anytime you want and spent the money you don’t spend on KP on something better.

    And the problem with the pro-KP is that paying a $158M guaranteed contract to a guy who hadn’t played in 18 months is ______________.

    He makes $27 million this year and the salary cap is $109 million

    This year is not the year that any of us worried about. The worry is that _____________.

    Can you fill in the blanks?

    Payton and Morris for KP works under the salary cap. Does anyone here actually think the Mavs would be better off trading KP for Payton and Morris’s expirings and waiting for a “better” max player to come along down the road? They would get laughed out of the NBA if they made that trade, and rightfully so.

    Yes, absolutely I think they would be better off getting out from the Porzingis contract to find a better player in free agency. But even better than that would be to avoid the risk of FAs going elsewhere, and take the pundit consensus — that Porzingis is an elite player — to parlay that massively risky contract into a pre-existing contract (or two) that minimize the risk of being left holding a big bag of nothing on July 9th.

    This is a fact: out of the 45 players who have played 400 minutes with a USG over 25, he ranks 43rd in scoring efficiency. Another fact: out of the 107 players with 400 MP and USG over 20, he ranks 96th in scoring efficiency.

    And here you are, trying to convince us that he’s an elite player. Would you argue that Jrue Holiday is an elite scorer? Carmelo? Westbrook? Blake Griffin? Ricky Rubio, Mike Conley, Aaron Gordon, Darius Garland? That’s who he’s surrounded by on that scoring effiency list.

    If you’re arguing for future returns, then we’re just in imaginary-land. Right now, that contract is a big fucking dud. And there’s four years remaining on it.

  71. The problem with the anti-KP argument is that you can’t just go into the marketplace anytime you want and spent the money you don’t spend on KP on something better.

    The thing is, though, you probably can.

    No one in the NBA EVER trades that valuable an asset in such a haphazard, rushed, political way, without the asset being shopped around for weeks, offers leaked to try to smoke out better offers, etc. It never happens. No NBA team is that irresponsible with that valuable an asset.

    There’s not a lot to defend mills and Perry on but they handled this perfectly. They got everything they wanted without anyone know they were shopping him.

    You can blame for wanting cap space, that’s what they wanted and they got it.

  72. Payton and Morris for KP works under the salary cap. Does anyone here actually think the Mavs would be better off trading KP for Payton and Morris’s expirings and waiting for a “better” max player to come along down the road? They would get laughed out of the NBA if they made that trade, and rightfully so.

    Maybe not Payton but if they traded KP for Randle and Morris they might be a better basketball team and have more cap flexibility.

  73. The Porzingis trade only looks bad from a casual fan’s perspective because:

    1) Obviously, KP is an unusual basketball player (“very intriguing”) for his combination of height, athleticism and sound shooting form appearance. Porzingis is not unusual in that he misses a ton of shots. Porzingis is unusual again in his ability to be praised for missing all of those shots. He’s perhaps less unusual in that he is paid a max contract to be so very terrible at making shots (Westbrook, Conley, Griffin, Wiggins).

    2) DeAndre Jordan was and is well past his prime, about to expire, and useful only to a good team that needs a dunk-and-D guy — a pure salary filler. Robinson is ten years younger and provides a similar function (in a very, very different way). So he was just a placeholder.

    3) Wes Matthews was immediately waived.

    4) Getting out from under the Lee and Hardaway deals should never have been necessary, had Jackson been remotely competent. Not the casual fan perspective: understanding the reluctance to praise the Knicks for leasing a lemon and then paying a sizable lease-break fee to save money down the road, but knowing it was still the best, least-risky move available.

    5) DSJ is a terrible basketball player. This is one of the objectively “bad” elements of the trade, especially if Mills, Perry and/or Fizdale were arguing, as they apparently did with Mudiay, Hezonja et al., that they could polish the heaping pile of excrement into something worthwhile.

  74. he ain’t hakeem olajuwan that’s for sure…

    not a bad player at all…glad for him that he found a better situation than this…seems like a decent 4th pick so far…

    he’s really good on defense and rick carlisle taught him how to rebound the ball…

    does he look a little injury prone – yes, seems a lot of young players do…he seems to be able to land a whole lot healthier than a couple of years ago…it was scary watching him land after some of his dunks when he was here…

    listen man, if you can’t come to terms with that fact that our team’s entire organization is one big monster swamp – you are deep deep off in to never never land…

    what happened needed to happen from both sides…because neither side had the capability to make it work…

    the whole thing was one big messy, and very typical, new york knickerbocker affair…

    shoulda, woulda… whatever…it was us (so painful to say), it was them, kp and his bro…

    it’s easy to be critical concerning player performance – it’s what we see all the time…

    I mean, it ain’t like we’re all rooting for donald sterling’s clippers – but…

  75. Oh, and he straight up said he didn’t want to be here. And the Knicks got picks. So there’s also that.

  76. Using KP stats from this season like his numbers weren’t suppressed by playing next to ME-VP “superstar” Luka Donic???

  77. I’m just glad we aren’t paying the exotic version of Andrew Wiggins a max. I’d rather have the picks.

    Just because our management is terrible and has not managed to leverage what they got from the Porzingis trade in any meaningful way, it doesn’t mean the trade was bad. Even if we just trade Morris and Randle who we acquired with the cap space for anything, it will already be a decent outcome. If not, well, we’re not paying a max lottery ticket to see if Exotic Wiggins ever turns into a star after 4 years of no real development.

  78. The Porzingis trade only looks bad from a casual fan’s perspective because:

    It looks bad from pretty much every fans’ perspective, other than a few holdout contrarians who constitutionally shy away from what they perceive as “casual fan” opinion, and it looks bad from every GMs and front office person’s perspective. He’s a top 30 player, and probably a top 15 asset. The idea that it would be smart to trade him for Marcus Morris and Elfrid Payton is … well, I’ll be kind and not put an adjective on it. It’s honorable to go down with the ship, rather than abandon it, to be sure.

    Just because we’re all victims of Dolan’s Razor doesn’t mean we should ignore Occam’s Razor. It was a terrible trade for the typical reason that a premium asset was traded for far less than his worth. The Knicks are far worse off having made it than if they hadn’t made it, and the Knicks are perfect proof that you can’t always spend the money you don’t spend on max contracts on other elite players. They had money to burn last season and dove into the marketplace and came out with fungible dreck. (*)
    They will likely roll over some of the cap room this summer and again come out of the summer with nothing more than fungible dreck. The marketplace for basketball talent isn’t like the marketplace for, say, luxury cars. No need to complicate things just so we don’t have to associate ourselves with “casual fan” opinion.

    (*) Meaning that if Dallas did do the silly KP for Morris/Payton “trade,” they risk winding up having the exact same thing happen. Teams go into the marketplace every summer with money and come out with nothing or fungible dreck.

  79. He’s a top 30 player

    but

    out of the 45 players who have played 400 minutes with a USG over 25, he ranks 43rd in scoring efficiency. Another fact: out of the 107 players with 400 MP and USG over 20, he ranks 96th in scoring efficiency

    uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

  80. KP is just starting to shake off the rust. Honestly I’m pretty sure we’re gonna look back on that trade and regret not just re-upping KP. Sure a max is risky for him but he’s still so young. Right now we could have a young core of KP, RJ, Mitch, Frank and Knox. That’s a nice mix of scoring and defense. You add a good PG who can shoot to that mix and you’ve got a pretty exciting team.

    This last stretch of games KP has looked good. On a team with Doncic where he can be the second option and focus on defense and rebounding…he might not have that second half face like he did as a younger player. He’s stronger too.

    I like our potential to build a good team over the next few years with RJ and Mitch and 6 first round picks, but 4 first round picks and KP would be nice too.

    We shall see. But I think those who were dancing on KP’s grace were acting way to prematurely.

  81. Perry should have extended/maxed KP as soon as he was able to. We were dragging our feet and then it became obvious to him that the three stooges are actually clueless.

    If you were KP, what would you have done? He’s in a better place and we’re worse off.

    First, it was just wait till summer time cause KD & KI were coming and develop Knox into an all-star. Both those are flushed.

    Now it’s lets wait till 2023 and see what with these two picks…sure, why not. We have plenty of time.

    At the end of that meeting, Perry should have told him that Fiz is a mistake and has a temporary status till he finds someone else while hand him a contract.

  82. Interesting quote from Giannis. He said it took him six years to learn to shoot a three well enough to do it in a game. By that standard, our young guys have a lot of time left.

  83. Wow, the bad take squad in full force. KP has less VORP than making Beef Wellington at home. Maybe he’ll fulfill his potential! But his improvements, if sustained, don’t point to a max player. You don’t deserve a max because you look like a unique player. And he’s not even all that unique! Defense: good. Offense: sub-standard. Major injury and asks out. And y’all think we should max this guy because he might be good eventually? It was a good trade, and it’ll still be a good trade even if KP eventually gits gud.

  84. Right now we could have a young core of KP, RJ, Mitch, Frank and Knox. That’s a nice mix of scoring and defense.

    That’s a nice mix of players who are not good at throwing the ball into the basket. Plus Mitch Robinson.

    KP .507
    Frank .477
    RJ .453
    Knox .510
    Mitch .700 (hey!)

    League average TS% is .559.

    We have four of those five players now and our TS% is dead last in the league. If we had KP we would still be dead last in the league. KP is FORTY POINTS BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE in TS%.

    If you guys want to keep pretending this schmuck is an elite player go ahead, please keep doing that, it’s hilarious.

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