(Wednesday, December 12, 2018 7:10:00 PM)
CLEVELAND — The Knicks rally came up short.
Jordan Clarkson scored 28 points and a basket by Rodney Hood in the fourth quarter gave Cleveland a late lead as the Cavaliers defeated the Knicks 113-106 on Wednesday — all after squandering a 22-point lead.
Hood put the Cavaliers in front 107-106 with…
(Wednesday, December 12, 2018 7:10:00 PM)
CLEVELAND — The Knicks rally came up short.
Jordan Clarkson scored 28 points and a basket by Rodney Hood in the fourth quarter gave Cleveland a late lead as the Cavaliers defeated the Knicks 113-106 on Wednesday — all after squandering a 22-point lead.
Hood put the Cavaliers in front 107-106 with…
(Wednesday, December 12, 2018 8:25:45 PM)
CLEVELAND — Kevin Knox rocked the city that houses the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. Despite the Knicks’ tough-to-swallow, 113-106 loss to the moribund Cavaliers on Wednesday night, many fans will most remember Knox’s emphatic fast break, right-handed dunk over Matthew Dellavedova with 32.5 seconds left that put the Knicks up one point. They couldn’t hold…
(Wednesday, December 12, 2018 8:16:28 PM)
CLEVELAND — The Knicks haven’t won since Trey Burke started missing games. Now it looks like Burke’s sprained knee ultimately will keep him out more than two weeks. Burke, who sprained his knee against Milwaukee Dec. 1, is with the club but won’t be cleared for contract drills until later this week. He hopes, but…
(Wednesday, December 12, 2018 4:44:49 PM)
CLEVELAND — David Fizdale has identified one pure trait of his 2018-19 Knicks. They’re never out of a game. There’s also another undeniable trait Knicks president Steve Mills, general manager Scott Perry and the team’s first-year coach all but promised: This team will deliver lots of losses — to the very good and the very…
(Wednesday, December 12, 2018 8:49:46 AM)
CLEVELAND — It was time to feature Fort Knox. With the Knicks carrying a four-game losing streak, coach David Fizdale promoted rookie lottery pick Kevin Knox into the starting lineup at small forward over offensively struggling Mario Hezonja on Wednesday, when the lowly Knicks (8-20) faced the lowly Cavaliers (6-21). This would have caused more…
(Wednesday, December 12, 2018 9:45:57 PM)
The Knicks battled back from a 22-point deficit, but they ultimately fell short to Cavaliers, 113-106, on the road Wednesday night.
(Wednesday, December 12, 2018 6:19:42 PM)
A pair of intriguing rookies will be on display when Kevin Knox’s Knicks visit Collin Sexton’s Cavaliers on Wednesday.
[NYTimes] N.B.A. Roundup: Nets Survive Late Comeback Try From Depleted 76ers (Thursday, December 13, 2018 3:26:38 AM)
The Nets got their second win in three games against Philadelphia, which nearly completed a late rally despite playing without the injured Jimmy Butler.
[NYTimes] Why N.B.A. Stars Are Trading In Their Nikes (Thursday, December 13, 2018 4:48:45 AM)
An insurgency against the traditional basketball shoe powers is underfoot as companies like Puma, New Balance and Under Armour compete for a share of N.B.A. culture.
135 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2018.12.13)”
Only a half game back of Cleveland in the Tankathon standings, for a game where Frank and Knox both played well. A beautiful thing. I’d wish for Dotson and/or Mitch to play well in the same game, but we probably win if all four are on on the same night. At least against this level of competition.
Ah, the good old days when people used to think that Mudiay and Kanter would lead us to 30 wins.
I’m worried, though, about Fiz the strategist. His ATO plays don’t always blow up as badly as they did at the end of last night’s game, but they’re rarely good. A lot of his weird rotations can be written off as him playing mad scientist to figure out who’s a keeper and in what role. But he’s clearly trying to draw up successful plays in those situations, and the result is usually a mess. He seems a fine culture builder, which is probably what a team at our level needs. But I wonder about his Xs and Os acumen once we have a more talented roster.
For an analytics driven blog, we’ve always been VERY susceptible to recency bias. Sometime soon, we’ll win 2 or 3 in a row, and there’ll be a lot of garment-rending about our lottery position, and/or arguments about the merits of re-signing Mudiay. All of this has happened before. And it will all happen again.
Huge games from Ja Morant and Bol Bol last night. Bol would be difficult to work in for obvious reasons but if Zion is gone I just don’t think we can pass on him unless it’s for Morant.
I pay no attention to college hoops, save for what’s discussed here. Is Bol Bol a better prospect than Mitch looks like right now? If so, and he’s the BPA, you take him and trade Mitch and his great contract for a guard or wing.
Kevin Knox is rebuilding that trade value for the July Dame Lillard trade. Good to see him play well last night.
I was really encouraged by Frank Ntilikina’s play. He looked like a confident basketball player for the first time ever on offense, and he was still doing things on defense that make him a special player. I know it’s easy to think “give a guy playing time and he will improve,” but there are situations where giving a guy a bunch of minutes and hoping he figures it out is just reinforcing negative behaviors. Frank got 3 DNPs and now he looks like an NBA player. The talent was always there, and tonight he looked like a real-deal two way player.
We’re closing in on a top 4 lottery position and the young guys are playing better. It’s okay to be excited about this team.
@5 and 6, as far as I’m concerned our front court of the future is Vonleh and Porzingis. Bol Bol is a perfect fit for the Atlanta Hawks, but I don’t like his fit in New York. If we were picking #2 overall, I’m taking RJ Barrett and never looking back. Once he cools it with all the FGAs, you’ll all see what I see in that kid.
Highlights from Bol Bol’s game last night are pretty outstanding. Not sure whether San Diego is an actual team that you can measure a gigantic center prospect against, but his athleticism was better than I thought. Not sure we should draft him with KP/MR on the team but still impressive.
Ja Morant though? I think I am in love. Quick twitch athleticism? Check. Ridiculous handles? Check. (he shoots righty but if you just watch him dribble it’s not clear he has a weak hand – he actually seems to like dribbling and passing with his left more than his right). Shooting 66.7% from 2P range? 67+ TS on 33.8 usage? that seems good even in a non-power conference. One of the youngest sophomores in the class (younger than most incoming freshman)? Check. Superlative rebounder for his position? Check. I mean seriously – put him and Mitch in PNR and watch the lob dunks rain down. I don’t know how defenses would guard him with NBA spacing, Mitch diving, and Porzingis + whichever wings spacing out.
Meanwhile – perfect outcome last night. Knox continues to look better, not just in terms of box score stuff but with aggressiveness/motor. I thought the sequence starting here at about 1:15 in was a super-promising sequence – misses badly on a 3 but doesn’t mope, gets back on D, monster block on Rodney Hood, then an excellent contested defensive rebound, coast-to-coast in transition with a strong finish (no weak floater!). Then in the very next sequence (in the highlight film) he drives using his weak hand, finishes strong through traffic, again no weak floater. And then that dunk that put the Knicks up from a sweet feed from Mudiay was pretty awesome to watch.
Anyway, obviously a tiny small sample but in December he’s putting up 19/8.5/2.3 per 36 which is a far cry from earlier in the year. Still needs more craft around the rim but at least recently he’s doing less ugly floater…
And if there’s one clear development success story so far from this staff, it’s turning Mudiay from a godawful finisher to someone who’s good at scoring around the basket. So even if they can’t fix Knox’s other issues ( and I’m hopeful they can), I expect to see big improvement from him in this area over time.
And sweet baby Frank – also looking much more comfortable on the offensive end. I believe he even had 2 layups! And got to the line!
Really should have had 5 assists in his 23 minutes (somehow they didn’t give him an assist on that beautiful pocket pass to Kanter that ended up being an and-1). I’ll take 16/3/5 in 23 minutes any day of the week from him.
I seriously hope that when Burke comes back that it’s Burke (and Hezonja) that go in the dungeon. Dotson, Knox, and Frank need more minutes.
This is true, but the with Knox the shot chart is almost deceptive because so many of his drives to the rim are out of control and hideous. He could stand to improve his shot selection even if it wouldn’t show up much on his shot chart.
I think he’s pretty clearly a long-term PF, which kind of contradicts everything the FO said to justify the pick. Still, it’s not impossible to see a scenario where he’s an above average scorer in terms of both volume and efficiency, a slightly below average rebounder for a PF but doesn’t kill you, and averages a block + steal per game.
Zion is obviously still the prize of the draft, everything about him screams future superstar, but Ja Morant would be a good consolation if we miss out on Zion. Bol Bol is probably my third choice. Obviously there’s fit issues with him but I don’t think it’s impossible him and KP could play together. Plus, I don’t believe in drafting for fit, you should always take the best player especially when you’re as bad as we are.
Cam Reddish and Nassir Little are the two guys I don’t want. I don’t know what Reddish is supposed to be good at and Little is the new Marvin Williams.
Re: Knox and what to make of him after his first 470 minutes — I think it’s pretty near impossible to know what to make of him. Just to make a ridiculous comparison:
Player A first ~470 minutes: TS 49, FG% 39.2, 3P% 28.4, per36 = 20 points, 4.6 rebounds, 2 assists, 0.9 blocks, 3.6 turnovers
Player B first ~470 minutes: TS 46. FG% 35.8, 3P% 35.2, per36 = 16.6. points, 6.6 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 0.7 blocks, 1.8 turnovers
Both players look awful – player A scores a bit more but still at awful efficiency but doesn’t rebound as well and turns the ball over 2x as much as player B. Neither look to have the profile to be good NBA players eventually.
Player A is, of course, Kevin Durant.
Player B is Knox.
Durant didn’t have a single month better than 51.8 TS until March of his rookie year, then promptly fell back to 52.5 in April.
Obviously Durant was a far superior prospect back then, but 19 year old 6’9″ physically frail players are going too struggle badly in the NBA until they get used to the physical play, travel, athleticism, etc.
I think for NYK and his own sake, it’s time to release Enes Kanter. No one will trade for the salary, IMO. Just say sincere thanks, we need to move on with future plans, and let the man hook on with a playoff team. Really wonderful character. I wish him all the luck in the world. He’s bad for the team and the tank, though…
Off to a great start.
The only thing he ever made sense as was a small ball four, so yeah, it was weird how much they were pushing him as a three.
In horse racing, expressing an opinion AFTER we already know the result is called redboarding. It’s frowned upon. If you do it, you risk getting barred from any worthwhile group of horseplayers. Everyone is a genius AFTER the race (or in this case after the trade).
You can find examples of success or failure doing just about anything and you can rationalize whatever you want after the fact. It’s a giant results oriented waste of time. It may even lead you astray.
I always express opinions about deals when they are made and before we know the results. Sometimes I refer back to those opinions later.
Everyone already knows what I thought of each of Phil’s moves at the time he made them and everyone knows what I think of Mills, Perry, and Fizdale so far.
I’d take Phil over these guys in every way other than his inability to relate to today’s players and the press. Current management is more competent at forming relationships and convincing fools they are competent. That’s helping them get good press and could potentially attract better players. But imo the reality is they are clueless (other than in scouting which may have been Gaines being leftover from Phil).
IMO, these guys are snake oil salesmen. Our best hope is that they get lucky because they don’t know what they are doing basketball wise.
Why are we sure he can’t play the 3?
I think long-term the best possible outcome would be for him to be a hybrid 3/4 where he plays the 3 in the starting lineup with KP and Robinson, then can play the 4 if/when we go small. Have we seen anything definitive that he (ultimately) won’t be able to guard the 3? Certainly on offense he can do SF-like things.
I see Knox as more of a PF as he fills out. He can’t defend SFs now and it’s probably only going to get worse.
Between Knox and Mikal Bridges, I think you can argue that Mikal is more of SG/SF and Knox is more of a SF/PF depending on matchups. We had the bigger glut at SG/SF. We had no real SF and I guess they were hoping Knox could slot in there for a couple of years.
Recency bias for sure, but life as a knick fan feels so much happier this week.
When I looked at our schedule last week I saw an 8-game stretch featuring the nets, cavs, suns and hawks and definitely thought we might ride our vets to a 4-4 stretch. Instead, we’ve given up two of those already meaning we’re unlikely to go better than 2-6 on that run. And we’ve done that off the back of more minutes and improved play from our ‘true’ assets.
We then start a 2-month run from Christmas where it’s legit hard to see us going better than about 5-25. If we’re 15-50 entering the stretch run we should be good for top 5 odds, at worst…
I’m glad I learned something new today but if your implication is that it was impossible to know that Phil’s moves would look terrible at the time they were made, that’s…horseshit 😉
You can go back to the KB threads about any Phil move you want. They were either torn to shreds in the case of Noah/Rose, or seen for the directionless nonsense they were in the case of Afflalo/Williams/Lee.
I’ve aired plenty of grievances with the current front office, but I’d take them over Phil any day of the week simply because they seem to have a basic understanding of the NBA marketplace and win curve. Their knowledge of those things would still make them a replacement level KB poster, but Phil’s would make him Reub level.
well played.
I will say one thing about Phil: I like the player archetype he sought in the draft more than Mills/Perry. He and Gaines valued intelligence and two-way ability. I can’t see them being swayed by physical dominance in a 3-on-3 workout. If they had been in charge of the 2018 draft, I think it’s very likely they would have drafted Mikal Bridges or SGA over Knox.
This is literally the only thing I liked about him as PoBO
Trier signed (2 yrs).
Baker waived.
Two years for Trier is great, cutting Ron Baker is also great.
I bet his groin just got a lot better…….
It seems logical considering the backcourt jam but I know Baker has a fans’ corner here, so feel free to disagree 🙂
Good news about Trier. Of course, if we didn’t trade for Mudiay we’d have him on a 4/6M deal or so.
Bring on the Ron Baker handwringing!
Seconding this. It certainly didn’t look like Fiz was trying to throw the game down the stretch last night (not sure I’ve ever seen a coach as fired up as he was on the Knox dunk) but coming out of a timeout for a defense only possession with :30 seconds left (the one that resulted in the Hood runner) he had Frank (good), Mudiay, THJ, Knox and Kanter (ouch). I sure hope that’s a coach subtly shifting the odds against his team because not going offense-defense there if you’re trying to win is very, very bad (they made no subs in the timeout that preceded the play and then only brought in Dotson for Frank when they went back to offense). Granted he doesn’t have a bench full of stoppers, but you can roll out much better defensive lineups than that.
Like you said I don’t think it matters at all at this point and I think overall Fiz is doing fine so far, but there’s a lot of signs – from the failure to build much of an offensive identity, to his ATO stuff, to his tactical choices – that he’s weak from an Xs and Os standpoint. I think that can be passable even on a good team with the right assistant coaches (e.g. in Toronto under Casey they let Nurse rebuild the offense) but I think there’s signs that it’s a real weakness.
I don’t have time for this. This whatever you want.
Like I said, everyone here knows my opinion on each of Phil’s deals when he made them. I think several of them were wildly misdiagnosed here at the time and remain so.
So re: Trier – not just a 2 year deal which is nice but the 2nd year is a team option. Good job by Perry getting that team option in return for giving Trier the full BAE. Was always hard to imagine Trier not taking 3.5MM in guaranteed dollars as an undrafted rookie — but I can imagine his agent trying to push for the full 2 year guaranteed BAE. If necessary (to sign Durant or something) I imagine they could trade that contract without much difficulty and maybe even get an asset back.
So Trier’s contract is two years, 3,5 million each and with a team option for second year? That’s a solid contract.
We all knew Baker didn’t have much of a future with the team anyway, so that’s fine. He’ll end up on someone else’s end of bench probably.
Re: the ATO last night – the knicksfilmschool podcast broke it down and they though the play was fine but that the team just executed it badly.
Dropping Baker is a mistake for two reasons. One I think he is still a positive player but that’s debatable.
The second and more important reason is by dropping Baker they now can’t trade Burke or Mudiay. I want both of them gone but moving either would leave us thin at the one.
Good stuff from Bobby Marks:
That’s pretty smart construction by Perry. if Trier absolutely blows up (in a good way) they still have the 3.5MM team option year that they can exercise. If they need the $3.5MM to sign whoever they can decline the team option and still have restricted rights (although I’m not sure what his cap hold would be?).
They could easily trade Burke and/or Mudiay regardless of Baker. Frank can play the 1 full-time, Trier can get some spot minutes there, and they can just sign whatever D-leaguer if absolutely necessary. We’re not trying to win games, remember?!
I’m bummed to see the Hustlebunny go, but Trier can play the one in a pinch should we trade Burke.
Still not sure why it wasn’t Kornet. Maybe they know they’re buying out Kanter down the road? Or he simulates KP in practice?
Either way, props to Perry. Good contract.
I was just thinking last night that with his recent injury and his relatively poor play in the last couple of games before the injury, that the odds of Trier pushing the Knicks on the contract seemed to drop precipitously,so I figured they’d get a deal done soon. I like that they got him to agree to the second year, but I don’t think that the deal is necessarily all that useful for the Knicks from a cap perspective. They already do not have enough cap room to even offer the lesser Kemba Walker max contract. Trier’s $3.5 million just eats into that even more. If they turn it down and make him a restricted free agent, his cap hold is $4 million, which is an even bigger chunk out of their cap space. They really hurt themselves by giving him the 2-Way contract.
Burke should be gone. Trier isn’t a PG in any sense but Fiz could put him there if anything happened to Frank or Mudiay.
Lee played some point last year too.
trier contract is probably a best case realistic outcome with the team option, very good result. I will miss Ron. I’m kind of glad mills was stupid enough to give him $10m with a player option.
Brian, I think this is the useful bit, from Frank’s post:
You’d end up using the BAE and the room on the same player, which is bad resource management, but if a max free agent really wants to come here and you need $3.5mm, it works.
I’m very happy about the terms of the contract in that the Knicks have a team option. But the dollar value isn’t small. I think he’s worth it, but if you look at rookie scale salaries, he is making about what the tenth or eleventh pick in the draft this year makes (Bridges or Gilgeous Alexander). He making more than 150% of Robinson’s salary. That is not peanuts for someone undrafted.
But the room is their only option to bring Vonleh back if they sign a max free agent, right?
Yes, Vonleh would be sacrificed in this scenario.
If they manage to move Lee, though, they can still pick up Trier’s option, keep Burke’s cap hold, and have enough cap space for even Durant’s max. Then use room on Vonleh.
I have to believe Lee can be moved at some point. I think we’re just holding him in the hopes that his play brings the cost of that down.
Also, looking into it, I believe that that would also require renouncing Trier’s restricted free agent rights (you have to make a qualifying offer to maintain restricted free agent rights and now that they just signed Trier to the $3.38 million contract, his qualifying offer is roughly the same as his cap hold, so roughly $4 million), making him an unrestricted free agent.
As you note, and I agree, the easiest scenario to fix all of this is that they really, really need to dump Lee’s salary. It takes care of all their max cap room problems. It’s just an issue where every other team knows that they need to dump his salary, sooo….
I’ll always root for Ron, just…bacause. But this was a smart deal, and is probably best for Ron in the long run. He’ll catch on somewhere.
Your worst case scenario is Kevin Durant wants to play here and you have to attach a protected 2020 1st round pick to move Lee.
Stretching Lee gives you enough room to sign a 7-9 year max (which is probably what Kemba is going to cost at this rate) and gives us $10.6mm in dead money for three years (#thxphl).
It does seem like they’re operating under the assumption that they’ll be able to move Lee. I wouldn’t be so sure. The situation seems ripe for us to be ripped off via sweetener. I wonder what Strato thought at the time of the Courtney Lee deal?
I know Knox has his haters here at KB, but all recent indications are that he’s making progress towards being a productive player. If that turns out to be true, what about coming away from this draft with 3 legit rotation players? Hard to say what their ceilings are, but their floors seem to be NBA rotation players, right?
It’s funny, we talk about Mills/Perry and their possible views towards “Phil’s guys,” but Baker was clearly Mills’ guy! And he just completely gave up on him a year into a two year mid-level contract. That’s pretty weird, right? You give a guy a two-year/$9 million contract and then completely bury him at the start of year two.
I think that this was the right move, it’s just an odd one, as well.
Trading a first rounder to dump Lee’s contract that “could be traded for a first rounder at any time” would be pretty peak Knicksy, except, of course, as you note, if it was in a deal where they actually sign one of the five or so best players on the planet, that would be very much not Knicksy, so it sort of cancels out.
Yeah, what am I thinking? There has to be worse worst-case scenario.
Stretching Lee wouldn’t be enough to make the room necessary if that’s what it comes down to?
I’d rather stretch him than give any relevant pick to move his contract.
Nba tankathon has knicks drafting ja morant if they land anywhere between 4-7, what are the thoughts on him?
As Hubert notes, stretching Lee would be enough to make room for a 7-9 Max (a Kemba Walker max) but not a 10+ Max (a Durant max).
He’s super tantalizing as a prospect. I’m a fan, but I was also a fan of D’Angelo Russell and Russell has been a big disappointment in the NBA and I see a lot of Russell in Morant, so now I automatically doubt myself on guys with similar profiles to Russell (which is probably stupid, of course, but I can’t help it).
FWIW I always include Burke’s cap hold, Dotson’s contract, and the cap hold for the #1 pick in the draft. If we renounce Burke and end up with the #4 pick, that frees up enough room to stretch Lee and sign a Durant max, too.
x Noah – 6.4
x Lee – 4.2
x Thomas – 1.0
1. Timmy – 18.1
2. Porzingis – 17.1 (cap hold)
3. 2019 1st round pick – $8.1
4. Frank – 4.8
5. Knox – 4.3
6. Trier – 3.5
7. Burke – 2.3 (cap hold)
8. Dotson – 1.6
9. Mitchell – 1.6
10. Empty Roster spot 0.5
11. Empty Roster spot 0.5
Total = $74mm, $35mm in cap space
Good point.
I think Durant’s max starts at around $38M so we’d still need more. It seems like trade Lee or bust.
Giving Baker a contract was defensible, giving Ron Baker the contract Mills did was incredibly stupid.
The obvious soultions to the Knicks fringe roster problems is to not sign a big money free agent unless his name is Kevin Durant.
Yeah, the 10-year max will be $38,150,000 while the 7-9-year max will be $32,700,000.
just by eye test Morant looks a ton more athletic than Russell and probably has better handles too.
Knox is interesting. He’s our least-favorite type of player- the high-volume, low-efficiency type, but he’s picked it up a lot this month. He’s up to 30 minutes per game, shooting 39% from 3 on 36 attempts, his true shooting has hit .500, and he’s doubled his rebounds to almost 8/36. His defensive numbers are a mess, which the eyetest confirms.
He’s worse overall than the older Mikal and Miles, but shooting better from 3, interestingly enough; and in the month of December (small sample size alert) is outplaying them in everything but assists and steals.
If we agree Knox was more of a gamble with a higher ceiling, then he may have been the right pick.
I’d break the bank on Kawhi also, but seems unlikely.
I just thought of a nightmare scenario in which we trade our first rounder this year in order to avoid the rookie scale cap hold for it, thus allowing us to reach 10+ year max room just by stretching Lee.
I am now terrified of this. I wouldn’t want it to happen even if we did land Durant. Help.
I just forgot about Kawhi. Definitely agree with this.
@67
If it’s a top 3 pick then 100% no. If it’s the 8th pick and it brings us something good plus Durant, I mean, you gotta think about it at least right?
@69
For the 8th pick I think you do it without out a second thought if Durant is ready to sign on the dotted line. For a top 3 pick you’re right, you have to do something else. Sort of irrelevant though; there’s no way we can’t trade Lee, it’s just a question of what the final deal is.
I love even the aging version of Durant but if he costs us a #1 pick AND 40% of our cap space for 5 years, it’s tough to swallow.
For an 8th pick i wouldn’t think twice: think about last year, which was a bit shallow, but you get the idea- Mikal, Miles, or Knox for Durant? Hell yes. 5th pick (Trae/Bamba)? Yes. When you get to Ayton, Luka, Bagley, Jaren, I would say no.
Yeah, agreed. I would hope that they’d be able to trade Lee with multiple second rounders attached before ever having to part with a first rounder.
We’d be mad to trade this year’s pick to make cap space when we’d have to do that before knowing who would sign as an FA. Once we’ve made the pick, if Durant wants to sign we would at least know if we were willing to make that move vs trying to use other assets to create the space.
It’s not trade Lee or bust. In the scenario I outlined that has Lee stretched, I have us with the cap hold for the #1 pick ($8.1mm). I’m also counting Burke and Dotson.
If we get the #4 pick and renounce Burke, we have over $39mm in space with stretching Lee. If we get the #2 pick, renounce Burke, waive Dotson, that also gets us to $39mm.
So there are ways. We shouldn’t get forced to overpay to dump Lee.
To me, the real goal should be to try to trade TH. creates more space, and as a younger somewhat productive guy we might be able to get someone like sac to bite?
Realise Mills won’t though.
WAiving Lee though… 10% of the cap in dead space? This isn’t the NFL…
I’m saying this under the assumption that it won’t be something truly nightmarish, like just dumping Lee + the 8th pick on some team without taking a single pick back. If trading the first rounder brings some benefit, either through decent future picks or a good player, + Durant, then sure, do it unless there’s a realistic chance of Zion. I’d trade Knox or Ntilikina in a hurry if it meant Durant, so I’d trade this year’s 6-9 pick too.
I still don’t think there’s any chance either Leonard or Durant comes to the Knicks, and they’re the only two guys available I’d do something of the sort for. Not Kyrie, or Walker or anyone else like this.
Oh yeah, trading THJ would be amazing, but besides Mills unlikely wanting to trade him, THJ has a 15% trade kicker on top of his contract. He’s very tough to deal.
With the cap hold for the 4th pick, every free agent renounced except Porzingis, and Lee stretched we’re still at around $34.5M in space. You might be forgetting about minimum roster charges and/or Trier?
They can decline Trier’s option and then renounce his RFA rights, but that still wouldn’t open up max space and we don’t really want that to happen.
I have the cap hold for the 4th pick being $5.8mm, the empty roster penalties at $500k each, and Lee’s stretched number at $4.2mm. Unless any of those assumptions are wrong, under your scenario we’d have $39.1mm in space with the 4th pick in the draft if we renounce Burke.
x Noah – 6.4
x Lee – 4.2
x Thomas – 1.0
1. Timmy – 18.1
2. Porzingis – 17.1 (cap hold)
3. 2019 1st round pick (#4 in the draft) – $5.8
4. Frank – 4.8
5. Knox – 4.3
6. Trier – 3.5
7. Dotson – 1.6
8. Mitchell – 1.6
9. Empty Roster spot 0.5
10. Empty Roster spot 0.5
11. Empty Roster spot 0.5
Total = 69.9
Cap = 109
Space = 39.1
To clear his money we’d need to either trade him this year for an expiring in which case we couldn’t possibly know, or next summer into someone’s empty space which would definitely cost us a future first.
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if we don’t sign anyone this summer when Durant/Leonard go elsewhere. Didn’t they talk about FAs this year or next year? 2020 we’ll have more than enough cap space to sign AD.
I believe the minimum roster charge has gone up to 888K, and the cap hold for the 4th pick is now around $7M. I think these small differences account for our discrepancy here.
Regardless of who is right, it’s extremely hard to get to Durant’s max even with a stretched Lee. It involved renouncing guys whose holds we likely want in Burke and Vonleh and possibly waiving Dotson. I think every team in the league would call our bluff on that one and hold out for a first for Lee.
I think the easiest time to trade Lee is this summer IF you get a commitment from a max guy like KD or Kawhi, and need the space. I’d attach the maximum $5.1m in cash at our disposal plus a 2nd round pick or two. That effectively means while he’ll count $12.8m on the books, the other team is only on the hook for him for $7.7m.
If I’m a rebuilding team that wants a vet around for a little bit who could recoup another asset at the deadline from a playoff team looking for a wing shooter without any long-term commitment, I’d definitely take that on so long as I didn’t have awesome alternative with my cap space. There should be at least 1 taker for Lee in this type of construct.
I think this is right.
Well, you’re not looking at the other side of it though. If Lee can contribute then teams will want him, even if we don’t have leverage. If someone could take Lee to help this year and also get a second round pick or two (or Vonleh? or Dotson?) for nothing they may want to.
I guess moral of the story is, root for Lee to play really well (while we continue to lose) so that he becomes tradable.
I still can’t believe we didn’t trade him last year when he was playing very well. Fools.
I thought it was “meh” given the projected cap space growth at the time and our goal of building a team via a combination of draft picks, trades, and free agency (the strategy I preferred once we picked up Porzingis and were back to having all our 1st rounders). It made less sense to have him once the pinheads in charge now used the Rose cap space for Hardaway and Baker (both who play the same position as Lee) instead of something that would make us better. Then they also decided to allow veterans like O’Quinn go (who was actually good and young enough) and moved a couple of other players that made the team worse. They put us in a double dip tank mode. So having the older Lee now is utterly pointless and of course every team in the NBA knows that they have us over a barrel.
Lee was always pointless
hmmmm, i bet ol’ mitchrob is wishing he went undrafted also…
good to see the knicks make a good move in finding and signing trier…i wouldn’t mind seeing him get more time at point guard…
I like Baker and think he belongs on an NBA team somewhere. You can make a case he was the best defender on our team as a energy player off the bench, but that contract was dumber than a pile of lobotomized rocks.
I understand your perspective and the consensus here. Unfortunately, I’ve looked at the morality tables and concluded I might not be the only one that dies of old age before we are serious contenders taking the consensus path.
@91
And the reason you’ll most likely die before we’re any good is at the very least partly because of the last 18 years of signing Courtney Lees to bad deals.
it feels like since forever that i’ve been checking nba websites for upcoming point guard free agents…it sometimes feels like we care more about it than the knicks front office…
as a bunch of us have mentioned – spencer dinwiddie looks to be a very interesting option…
the nets have an opportunity to lock him up for four more years, but, haven’t pulled the trigger yet…i wonder if they’re debating over whether to keep russell or dinwiddie long term…
i’m curious to hear what any of you might think dinwiddie will be worth next contract on an average annual salary basis…
for the record…if we don’t get kemba (neither him nor kyrie are very likely to happen) or dinwiddie – i really like the idea of trading for teodesic and letting him run the point next year…this year SGA made him very expendable for the clips…
I understand your perspective and the consensus here. Unfortunately, I’ve looked at the morality tables and concluded I might not be the only one that dies of old age before we are serious contenders taking the consensus path.
strato, ease off on the life insurance. there is absolutely nothing immoral about being a rhetorical laser pointer. and even if there were, no one dies of hubris.
I would not attach an asset to move Lee unless it’s something easily replaced (like Burke) or we have some non public information from agents that suggests we can land a whale.
Durant coming to a team that can’t even beat the Cavs without Love when he’s 31 and has a narrow window would require he be suffering from some kind of degenerative mental disorder.
NY is appealing. He he may have some business interests here or be motivated to lead his own team. The problem is, without KP, this is the worst team we’ve put on the court since we blew up the roster, sent Melo away for surgery, and landed Porzingis.
I’m not saying we don’t have a few good assets. I like KP, Frank and Dotson. Knox and especially Robinson could wind up being very good. But these kids are are YEARS away from reaching their potential. Even with an all time great like Durant and a healthy Porzingis, they are good, but not serious contenders. Durant would be 33 or 34 before this team could make a serious run assuming everything goes well. It’s hard for me to imagine a player like him would want that.
Way more likely is that we are going to have space, get rejected by Durant, Leonard, and Irving and be forced to choose between overpaying someone like Kemba or trying to give out out short contracts so we can make another play for free agents the following year when the team is more attractive. The nightmare scenario is that they feel compelled to fill the space long term by overpaying and set us back yet again like they did with Hardaway/Baker.
Courtney Lee is a problem, but the problem was exacerbated by the moves this management team made. The mistakes of Isiah, Walsh, Phil, Grunwald and the rest are another story.
So now our 2019-20 team looks like:
Likely rotation players:
KP
Knox
Mitch
Trier
Frank
Dotson
Hardaway
2019 #1
Possible rotation players:
Burke
Vonleh
1-2 free agent signings (hopefully on smart, marketable deals)
Given the above, I’d rather not throw a max or near-max deal at anyone not named Durant or Kawhi. I just don’t think that Irving or Kemba move the needle all that much. I’m for the “wait until we have a core 40-win team and then look into FAs or trades” strategy.
the Darwin Awards suggest this is inaccurate.
Shouldn’t be an issue, since we’ll have a couple of incoming draftees.
There is no area in which Phil was better than Mills + Perry (Merry? Pills?) have been. He may have forgotten tomes of basketball knowledge but that’s not a point in his favor. Dementia is not an advantageous trait in an executive.
It was a joke suggesting I am too old for another all out phase 2 tank, but even though I’m older than most here, I’m not THAT much older given how long it’s going to take. 🙂
Damn, I guess I better quit my job. What was my job again?
I agree.
They are essentially using the same strategy Walsh and Phil used. They are relying on their ability to attract superstar players to a bad team because of the personalities involved and because it’s NY. Walsh and Phil failed at it. These guys are admired by players for some reason that escapes me. So maybe they’ll succeed where playing for D’Antoni’s popular running game and a champion like Phil failed, but I think cap space is an asset that can easily turn into dynamite in the wrong hands.
It was a joke suggesting I am too old for another all out phase 2 tank, but even though I’m older than most here, I’m not THAT much older given how long it’s going to take. 🙂
yes i was just poking fun at your typo, and, okay, also at your tendency to confidently proclaim the superiority of your mental models while deftly avoiding the desperate pawing of knickerblogger cats foolishly hoping to finally pin down one of your shiny philosophies into something that can be skinned and eaten.
Come on, Strat has explained his grand, visionary theory: get good players. You just don’t like, get it, maaan.
Now with Ron Baker gone, whose going to be the head bench cheerleader? For a few games, Frank was looking like his understudy, but Stalin, er, Fiz, released him from the gulag.
I’d guess LT, until he too is gone.
Would that it were. There’d be a lot fewer philosophy books. 🙂
For $5 million per? Where can I sign up?
@107
Steve Mills, c/o NY Knicks…
Sixers: Complete tear down starting in 2013, bonafide contenders by 2018
Knicks: “Putting together a good team with a combination of trades, free agency, and the draft” since…2000? Bonafide contenders never.
I dunno man, you might be better off rooting against the Courtney Lee signings of the world.
well, i guess we can forget about dinwiddie…seems the answer to the question was about 11.5 million a year…good for him…good for the nyets…yuch…
c’mon man…how can you not be rooting for this guy…
How have we gone 111 comments without once bringing up Derek Fisher being a complete fucking scumbag?
https://www.swishappeal.com/wnba/2018/12/13/18139113/wnba-nba-derek-fisher-los-angeles-lakers-sparks-concern
Where’s Matt Barnes when you need him?
Noah deserves a lot of respect for what he accomplished in Chicago. He did not acquit himself well in NY, however. He was, truly, too lit for us.
@113
Matt Barnes? In prison?
comment of the day:
that definitely sounds like a bit of a conflict of interest…like having your boss being one of those mary kay cosmetic commandos…
Bummed about Dinwiddie, because that’s the contract I hoped we’d be able to get. Great value signing by the Nets.
And as ptmilo said, Tobias Harris isn’t likely to come on a value contract, so…oh well. Durant, Leonard, or bust.
Great point, Strato. Because yeah, we’re offering to have Durant come play with Mudiay, Kanter, Hardaway and Vonleh. We’re going to waive Porzingis. We won’t use our draft pick, even if it’s good enough to land Zion or Morant. And we’ll never make trades, bc those are illegal. He has to come play with last night’s team or nothing.
Back in the major-label heyday, when pop musicians couldn’t get any media platform exposure without being underwritten by a Sony, Universal or Warner imprint, you’d see ex-musicians becoming “VP of Artist Relations” or some nebulous title like that, using their cred to sway young musicians into signing horrible, vampiric contracts. The most important part of the sales pitch was that they too had found success in the industry, and they knew exactly what you were going through and could assure you that the suits that you met in LA were good guys who really cared about the music and wanted to see you succeed. Steve Albini’s famous essay goes into further detail.
Derek Fisher is the loan shark’s A&R guy. He’s the guy with the deep rolodex of NBA players, a former NBPA leader (!!!) who can connect struggling athletes with the loan sharks he’s in cahoots with. If I’m Adam Silver, I make it very clear to ownership (including the fucking LA SPARKS, for whom he become coach this month!) that Derek Fisher is done in any official capacity with the NBA. If I’m Michele Roberts, I do much, much worse.
@ClarenceGaines2
Replying to @KnickFilmSchool @RonBaker31
LOL! – Might have been @RonBaker31’s best sequence – Ron brings it on the defensive end every time he steps on the floor – This type of play is not an aberration, it’s a regular occurrence – the toughest on-ball defender in my tenure with the @knicks -Got nothing but love for him
@119
Just how out of touch would it be for the Sparks to keep him on the job now, when the top WNBA players spent the entire last season pretty much speaking up about their low wages…
Mudiay absolved! In case you missed it the NBA two minute report clearly states that Mudiay was fouled by Delladova on that late drive. You can still question the wisdom of throwing up a wild shot because you’ve got a guy on your back and you’re pretty sure you’re going to get fouled (and of course there’s those 10 other shots he missed) so his absolution is only partial. As for the inbounds play- correct no call on Hardaway getting tangled up with Nwaba- just terrible execution by the Knicks. Only other blown call was the foul on Frank which didn’t really matter much because it was non-shooting.
https://ak-static.cms.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2018/12/L2M-NYK-CLE-12-12-2018.pdf
No more out of touch than Isiah still being the team president of a women’s basketball team after being the cause of an $11.5 sexual harassment lawsuit against the company that owns that same women’s basketball team.
He’s still with the Liberty? Damn I had forgotten already. But well, it’s James Dolan, this ship has sailed so long ago.
I’m not. Noah basically admitted that he was too stoned all the time to play. He stole money from the Knicks and he screwed us, his fellow New Yorkers. He was brought here to mentor KP and he ended up being the opposite of a role model. Not that I cared about Hornacek, but Noah got him fired too.
Screw him.
Nope, bad take.
Anyone want to bet that Mudiay is closer to his career average TS% than league average by the All-Star break?
What’s league average?
53.6% for PG
Okay, so he’s at 53.2% now. His career average (excluding this year, right?) is 46%. Hmmm…I guess I’d still go for him ending the season closer to the league average then.
35 years ago today, highest scoring game in NBA history. Pistons 186 Nuggets 184
Guess how many 3 pointers were made in that game?
Two
C’mon Bulls!
That was some Bull shit.
Come on, Suns!
Jamal “Howitzer” Crawford: Anti-tank Weapon