2017-18 Game Thread: Knicks @ Celtics

It’s obviously early, but Danny Ainge’s offseason trades are looking pretty good so far, as Jayson Tatum is playing about as well as I’d expect him to play…in Year 2. That he’s already there in his rookie season is very impressive. Meanwhile, Markelle Fultz is playing through a shoulder injury and looking bad in the process. Meanwhile, the Nets are playing just competent enough that the 2018 Nets pick might not be a great pick. Of course, all of this could change, but so far, Ainge’s moves are working out. Except, of course, the horrific injury that happened to Ainge’s big free agent get, Gordon Hayward.

In any event, while the moves worked out, the Celtics are still just 1-2, so hey, maybe the Knicks can surprise them!

KP starting at center tonight. Interesting.

Let’s go, Knicks!

235 replies on “2017-18 Game Thread: Knicks @ Celtics”

I’m spinning the “Wheel of Scrubs who Destroy the Knicks”….

And the winner is……

Shane Larkin!!

seems the last couple of seasons we’ve started off okay, and then fell apart by january…would be nice to see a reversal of that trend with slow continually improvement during the season…

definitely “feels” better tuning in to knick games with low expectations…

yeah, what’s up with clyde???

tuned in the detroit game and no clyde…that was more disappointing than losing the game…

Out of the KP double team Knicks swing it too slowly to Tim Hardaway, who is standing out of bounds

Lee and Tim don’t work very well together.

We should start McDermott and bring Lee in off the bench.

I can understand missing shots. I can’t understand him failing to pass the ball. I can’t understand not playing defense. THJr is a problem.

Hardaway looks just pathetic out there. No D and can’t make a shot. He even receives passes standing out of bounds.

This is depressing, being bad and boring to watch is the worst possible combination.

knicks down by double digits and it’s only been one quarter. Celtics playing brutal defense. Jaylen Brown playing awesome.

What the hell is positive about Jaylen Brown being good at basketball?

@29 I’ll say it again. There was a preseason video of Horny asking Willy what he does well and Willy answers rebounding and interior offense. Then Jeff tells him to go do those things. It’s like he has no respect for him.

I’ve watched a lot of bad basketball the last decade but I can’t remember anything worse than this.

It feels like we are the worst team in the NBA.

in Phil’s first year when we lost 26 of 27 we could at least say our one win was in Boston

How the fuck does Willy not play . . . This is ridiculous. A team run by chimps would be playing Willy 20+ a night, yet we can’t find a single minute for the kid.

I’m ashamed. I predicted the Knicks to score 102 in this game. They’ll be lucky to get 80.

The NBA should change the lottery rules to give the Knicks the #1 pick 3 years in a row just to ease the pain of everyone that has to watch this abomination.

@57 Willy’s being paid almost nothing, so from an idiot’s perspective he is earning his pay.

Is Hornacek even bringing anything to the table at this point? He’s freezing out people who should be playing and appears to be contributing nothing else.

That TH Jr contract is looking like an abomination already and we’re only 3 games into it.

The Knicks may have as many as 3 players getting minutes that probably shouldn’t even be in the NBA

That TH Jr contract is looking like an abomination already and we’re only 3 games into it.

Looks like he needs another trip to the G-League

Lee, TH2, KP, Sessions, O’Quinn and Kanter are NBA players. Some of this is on the coach.

What does a coach say to a team that played like this at the half?

“Look on the bright side, Dolan is paying you a lot of money to suck this badly”

@70

What does a coach say to a team that played like this at the half?

“Start making shots.”

That’s the thing, how can you be a tanking team when you gave TH Jr that insane contract?? Not to mention Noah’s contract, I’d feel fine with tanking and the future of this team if those 2 contracts were not on this roster.

just getting off work…can’t wait to get home to tune in to this barn burner…

okay, maybe i’ll just check in on the world series for a while…

That’s the thing, how can you be a tanking team when you gave TH Jr that insane contract?? Not to mention Noah’s contract, I’d feel fine with tanking and the future of this team if those 2 contracts were not on this roster.

You can get away with 1 bad contract, but you can’t get away 3. Kanter is also a bad contract.

I don’t know what’s wrong with Tim Hardaway Jr but there is no way in his 5th year that he is worse than any other version of Tim Hardaway Jr

Timmy might be hurt or it might just be a terrible slump. What bothers me is we don’t appear to have an offense or a defense.

The team is playing like they haven’t slept. There’s no movement. It’s all isolation ball. They’re playing off of the man they’re defending. There is not a single thing they are doing that I like.

Hot take here guys, takes a lot of courage to admit this: THJ might have been slightly overpaid this off-season.

The team is playing like they haven’t slept. There’s no movement. It’s all isolation ball. They’re playing off of the man they’re defending. There is not a single thing they are doing that I like.

The joke on Twitter is that they hated the Triangle so much that they decided to just go without an offense period.

But seriously, we’re terrible and Boston is good. If the Knicks couldn’t finish the Pistons, the Celtics are so much tougher.

I just hope this start won’t get Mills and Perry desperate to make dumb moves.

I don’t know what’s wrong with Tim Hardaway Jr but there is no way in his 5th year that he is worse than any other version of Tim Hardaway Jr

Sure, but there’s also a chance that the one half of good play in his fourth year was the outlier, not the new norm.

Kanter putting up numbers might help us trade him When can we do Kanter for Bledsoe?

It’s one thing to suck, and it’s another to be unwatchable.

We’ve got both covered.

The brightside: Brooklyn is wimming again and might really be a lot better than us.

The league should reward us with Doncic, we deserve it.

I honestly don’t think swapping Kanter for Bledsoe straight up on this game would make any difference.

And D Red is right, this Celtics team isn’t even that good, we’re just making them look good.

@94 Well, it would/might free Willy for one positive benefit. Plus Bledsoe could hold the fort down until Ntilikina is ready.

This is the worst passing team I’ve seen in years- even simple entry passes are routinely butchered.

Yeah if Hornacek isn’t playing willy and has us playing like this he should be fired immediately

TH2 is also on orlando (but they call him Terrence Ross) and he is having a similarly terrible game

The good thing is that since everything from now on is garbage time on this game, Willy might play.

Let’s see, we should be able to beat the Suns, other than that, I can’t think of one team that we’ll be favored to beat this season.

Ehhh. I haven’t seen the game. Just glanced at the star line. What the fawk happened to KP?

KP missed a few makeable shots, but there were also a lot of head down isos into double teams out of a stagnant offense

The Knicks don’t get blown out if they had a guard who could break a defense down. And Doug McDermott needs to be starting.

when towns wasn’t much of a defender as a rookie I didn’t think much of it, but it’s starting to look like that’s just who he’ll be

Our offense is terrible. Everything is so difficult. Even when we were winning against Detroit it was on the back of great iso play by KP and Kanter.

2012-13 was fun! So was Linsanity! So are lots of KP’s good games! Remember that time they beat the Suns in double overtime during David Lee’s rookie year? Oh, how about Jamal Crawford’s crazy game-winner against Denver? David Lee’s tip-in?

I actually watch a majority of the games even though they suck. However, I try to go to a sports bar with multiple games on so I can browse other games.

That was downright terrible. Good game for game film, though. Ask Ben Simmons.

Oh, and looks like the Celts hit a home run with that Tatum deal. He’s really good!

Tatum and Brown looked good against quite possibly the worst defense ever to wear orange and blue. Screw those guys and I hope they make a lot of money in Celtic uniforms as high-usage low efficiency chucks.

We really need to get a point guard. I know nobody wants to win, but I plan on watching as many of the 82 games as possible. I’m not saying trade assets for Eric Bledsoe as much as I just want a guy like Ish Smith or something. Somebody who can hit KP in a pick and roll. Our iso-heavy-dump-into-the-frontcourt attack was destroyed by Boston.

Al Iannazzone @Al_Iannazzone
Courtney Lee said some players don’t know the plays and they need to pay attention more in practice.

Well, the Knicks are who (most) of us expected they are, a bad team that should lose to OKC, Detroit and Boston. I dont see anything to panic about except the fact that it’s becoming clear with every player quote that Hornacek is not the right coach.

If this team gets routed by the Nets next game, then that is unexpected. The next games are all probably losses too (@Cleveland, Denver and Houston) and then Suns should be a win. A much easier stretch starts then, with Indiana, Charlotte, Orlando and Sacramento until it gets pretty tough again.

Man, Courtney Lee just does not give AF. He’ll just say whatever’s on his mind. I dunno if it’s even necessarily a good thing, but it’s interesting, nonetheless.

Tank on, that was awful. The Knicks guards cannot Pass the fucking ball, it is embarrassing to watch. At the first sign of pressure they crumble and throw a bad pass or turn it over. They desperately need a competent point guard……next year. For now just keep on track for that top 3 pick.

The Nets are absolutely 100% better than this team right now

I mean, what coach would put Hardaway on Brown and Lee on Tatum? That’s just asking for a beating. I give Jeff ten more games.

On the Post-game show they were gushing over Kanter with 16 points and 19 rebounds. Meanwhile they were along the lines of “Willy Hernangomez got some minutes. He had 10 points in 10 minutes. Yeah but defense…”

I get that they are paid to be homers and not really question decisions but wth. I sure hope this is one of those “three dimensional chess” decisions and they are building up KOQ and Kanter to trade them, otherwise it is myopia. The team was getting annihilated while Kantner was out there filling up his stat sheet.

Kanter has been on good teams and bad teams. He fills up the stat sheet but the team always stinks when he’s on the court. I can’t entirely explain it. We know his defense is a problem. But I suspect other things are going on that we are not going to notice from the stat sheet or just watching for enjoyment.

KP was horrible.

I hate when he goes into “take bad shots” mode. If it’s late in the clock, there’s nothing you can do. But last night he was making bad decisions. It’s like he’s in “#1 option” mode and he thinks he’s supposed to play like Melo. Pass the dam ball if there’s nothing there. Is it that hard?

How can they not know the plays?

If that’s an issue, all those guys need to be benched PERIOD!

The problem was that last night the Celtics took away our front court isolations and the Knicks guards are so bad in pick and roll that they couldn’t generate any easy offense. That’s why KP took so many bad shots. Kanter is unstoppable in the paint and gets buckets off the offensive glass so he’s going to get his anytime he isn’t playing Steven Adams. Not having a point guard is going to be a huge problem against half decent basketball teams.

It’s easy to look at the box score and say ‘well, if Timmy and KP had just shot better’, or ‘if the Knicks shot better than 1-12 from 3 while Boston was 14-28’ it’s a different game. And that is true, to some extent. But that was a game we both played badly and got bad outcomes. KP and Timmy shot poorly, but they also took bad shots. We shot like shit from 3 while Boston shot really well, but they also took 16 more 3s than we did because they were running an offense while we were just . . . I don’t know what we were doing out there.

So when do we get to decide on Hornachek? I think hes awful. I honestly think the most competent coach we have had in like 15 years was Woody before the “East is big” fiasco lol

Small sample sizes still in effect obviously but through 3 games we’re sitting at 30th in the league in Offensive Rating. Perhaps surprisingly (to some) despite losing some of our low efficiency scorers and replacing them with theoretically higher efficiency guys we’re also dead last in eFG%.

Defensively we’re 25th so we have that going for us I guess.

This team is going to be extremely bad this year.

Yeah. We’re going to be bad. And yeah, Horns might not survive after the off season. I hope we don’t fire him mid season though unless it just gets god awful and players are openly revolting. But this is what rebuilding looks like folks!

But hey, if we had Melo, we’d still have no PG, so Melo would be ISOing and we’d probably still be losing these games. Maybe we win that Detroit game. So 1-2, not 0-3.

Hopefully a KQ trade is on the way (there’s rumors out there). That would open up playing time for Willie. We also need to give Dotson burn. But probably won’t until Lee is gone.

My 16-win prediction for this bunch looking rather prescient right about now.

This needs to be our rotation. Not that its going to make a difference.

Frank/Ron
Timmy/Dotson
McBuckets/Lee
KP/Beasley
Willie/Kanter

Or switch it and have Ron start and Frank back him up.

Perhaps surprisingly (to some) despite losing some of our low efficiency scorers and replacing them with theoretically higher efficiency guys we’re also dead last in eFG%.

Not that I have the answer, but imo the all the models are flawed when it comes to usage and efficiency. It’s extremely complex and depends on the makeup of the team and decision making.

Guys like Melo and Rose can bail out possessions that would otherwise be disastrous with acceptable, but not good, efficiency. However, having that ability can also lead to sub par possessions when they hold the ball or choose to do their thing before attempting to run a play or break down the offense with good passing.

Telling KP he’s the #1 option and must carry the team is leading him to take some dumb shots before we need him to bail out the possession. If he doesn’t find the balance, his efficiency is going to suffer. It’s bad enough he’s actually going to be asked to take more tough shots on this team. But if he adds a lot of bad ones on his own on top it, he’s a 7’3″ Melo.

So when do we get to decide on Hornachek? I think hes awful.

I’m out on Hornacek, too. I was excited when they hired him, though that was mostly bc he wasn’t Kurt Rambis. Still, I was hpoeful. But the Knicks usually look less prepared than their opponent, and it’s hard to see what he is trying to do on either end. It doesn’t seem like he is either a deep thinker or a player whisperer, so that doesn’t leave much.

God knows how much I pine for coach stability. But I think it’s very apparent that Hornacek has no control of this team and is probably well in over his head. The team is terribly assembled (we all knew that) but his rotations are all over the place and it looks like meritocracy is not something he adheres to, which can be very very very problematic with young promising people. I’d add that KP looks too complacent at times (good PG play or not) and that it doesn’t look like this team has a vocal leader. I think Hornacek has to go in around ten games unless he rights the ship (steady rotation with Willy and Dotson in it, some sembiance of real playcalling, holding guys accountable for mistakes).

I’m very very much disappointed in the coaching situation. Everything else is going as we foresaw.

The Knicks look completely lost in what they should be doing. This is the second game in a row that every single entry pass or attempt at a set play gets read and pressured instantly by the opponent every time. Sessions or Jack would bring in the ball, Hardaway / KP / Lee would try to run some screens here and there and the defender would instantly pressure them on the catch. It killed so many possessions and turned them into terrible ISOs.

I’m not entirely convinced this is the lack of PG showing up. Yes, a better PG would make a better pass or be able to drive / conduct a better pick and roll, but it’s also on the fact that Hornacek has some of those guys having no idea how to run plays (or doesn’t even have decent plays at all).

The offense looks thoroughly confused and struggling to get on even the most basic sets, which is something that’s not entirely related to talent level, but sound coaching and preparation. Lee’s and THj’s remarks lead me to believe that’s a real issue.

I honestly don’t want Hornacek to finish the year for the Knicks.

I wonder if Horny is trying to get fired just to keep collecting a payday for doing nothing?

Are there any experienced coaches available?

Mark Jackson?

Jeff Van Gundy?

Did we not expect that there would be nights like this? Nearly everyone here predicted less than 30 wins this year, and of course there are going to be blowouts. Road game vs. very good team? Good chance for a blowout. There are more to come.

This is understandable; now, if there is not some improvement in the flow of the offense over time, and that is something that will take weeks to get better, then Hornacek will go. I’m not optimistic about him, but it is still too early to see. Yes, he needs to play Willy every game. If we’re seeing comments about guys not knowing the offense 20 or so games in, then someone needs to go, either the player(s) or the coach. But for now, I’m not going to rail against Hornacek when Timmy cannot hit a friggin shot! That’s on Mills, not the coach.

This is a deeply flawed roster, and as we know, PG is a mess, though Sessions actually played OK last night, for what he is. Timmy and KP were awful last night. Having either Lee or THJ guard big threes is disastrous on the scoreboard, but good for the tank.

Keep tanking, look to deal OQ, Lee, LT at first opportunity. Get rid of Beasley and Jack. Try to add a young PG and wing/three who can defend. Hope that Frank can get healthy and start playing.

1. The Knicks’ only path to contention is a tank job so complete that it hands you a top 3 pick.
2. The Knicks do not have a viable point guard on the roster.
3. The Knicks have exactly 2 trade-worthy assets not named KP (KOQ and Willy). Don’t hold your breath for a beneficial Knicks trade.
4. Ripping Jeff H. for executing the tank job is not practical. Being frustrated that Willy and Dotson are not getting enough minutes is understandable.
5. Thinking that you can have your cake and eat it too is exactly why the Knicks have been a disaster since the Spurs knocked the Knicks out in 1999.
6. Tanking will impact KP’s development.
7. 40+ years of being a Knicks and Rangers fan has taught me that the wait is worth it.

If JVG was willing, I’d hire him in a heartbeat. No Mark Jackson, please. The guy is too old school for it to really work. Anyway, we’d just need somebody who understands that KP has to be repeatedly used as the roll/pop man on PNRs and PNPs, if anything, to see what we have in him in that role, and to put him at the 5 on defense. Everything else is inconsequential. If KP becomes Melo-bis, what an effing waste of talent.

Oh and by the way, I’m totally down with the tank, but not with tanking while playing without even a basic idea of what we should be doing.

Yeah its hilarious people want to fire Horns after 3 games when literally just the other day the Suns did that and everyones like “LOL, at least we’re not that bad. talk about dysfunction.”

Its like people want this magical formula of a season where we don’t win any games but we’re competitive in all of them so that the players don’t get defeated. That ain’t how it works. If you’re a bad team you get blown out by the good teams. A LOT. You’re more competitive against teams on the second night of a back to back and against mediocre and shitty teams. You’ll lose a lot of those games too. Then you’ll randomly beat a few good teams. But blowouts happen A LOT in the NBA when you’re a bad team. There isn’t a “good” bad team that keeps it close all game, every game but still loses.

I mean, we have no point guard! Of course the offense looks like a mess and players don’t know what they’re doing. And its literally a week into the season with basically a whole new roster.

Horns probably isn’t the answer long term but talk of firing him right now is way too premature.

@155
Exactly! And, lots of teams struggle early. GS and OKC have 2 losses already, and those are excellent teams. So if a good team can struggle early, what will a bad team like the Knicks do with so many new players to integrate?

I don’t think Hornacek should be fired today, but what bothers me is no one seems to know what they’re doing out there and the offensive sets are awful. Yes, he has a shitty roster and if Popovich was coach we’d still only win 30 games, but I really need to see some semblance of an NBA offense.

Right now, it’s just give the ball to KP or Kanter and stand around.

Are there any experienced coaches available?

David Blatt is the experienced guy that comes to mind, though most of his experience (and incredible success) has been in professional leagues outside of the NBA.

@152 & 155 my thoughts exactly. We begged for a rebuild – this is what it’ll look like on more than a couple of nights. I think what has people in their feelings is that KP had his first bad game and that we lost to the Celtics. But lets remember that the Celts are gunning for the ECF again and we… not so much.

I think it’s only natural to want a team you root for to play well and win, even when its in their best interest not to. That said, if this team starts out, say, 0-10, it’ll look good for the tank, but many of us will want them to win a game sometime.

Hopefully, Frank Nitti will see some meaningful court time soon.

I don’t think the coach is the problem per se, but clearly he has a negative relationship with KP, was a PJ hire, and still has Rambis on the staff. I think they will let him twist in the wind until it the timing is right PR-wise. Maybe another 3-5 games of disorganized play.

If they do fire him, I hope they completely clean house and start from scratch.

Priorities for 2017-8:
(1) Secure one of the top picks in 2018 draft
(2) Avoid injuries to young pieces
(3) Unload crappy contracts
(4) Trade vets for assets
(5) Get young players court time to help them develop
(6) Have the team, as it stands, show good chemistry on the floor

(7) Win some games to alleviate concerns/spare some dignity

I’d argue all is going well.

Avoiding injuries to young pieces is uncontrollable. Avoiding exacerbating injuries by playing them either when injured or for too many minutes is probably what you meant, right?

My issue with Hornacek is that while the team is getting outskilled obviously, it’s also been a mess in terms of preparation and cohesiveness. The Nets are a prime example of a team with even less talent that is well coached. A team can be well coached and still suck and lose a lot of games and develop young players. I agree he shouldn’t get fired now, but what I’m seeing does not bode well for his future as a head coach long term, that’s all.

I don’t think anyone is calling for Hornacek to be fired because the Knicks are 0-3. They played well against the Pistons for much of the game and were expected to get killed by OKC and Boston anyway.

It was Mills/Perry that decided to accept a deal for Melo that added to the already difficult glut of big men. It was Mills/Perry that gave us Hardaway Jr and expected him to be a viable 2nd option. Now it’s on them to fix it.

The problem is that the players don’t even know the plays and seem totally lost. On some level, that’s coaching even if we have a lot of new players and it’s still early in the season.

I think everyone will be OK with a 25-30 win team if they sense we are heading in the right direction. But after all these years of failure, when you see the team looking this dysfunctional and your new free agent stinking out the joint you start thinking the worst rather quickly.

If they do fire him, I hope they completely clean house and start from scratch.

That’s the scary thing – Horny getting fired and then Rambis getting the gig again.

It’s damning that two veterans came out and said that the players didn’t have a clue. It sounds like incompetence to me.

@164 Wasn’t the Hardaway, Jr. signing before Perry was hired?

Yes. That one and the Baker contract are on Mills. Now Perry gets to try to work around it.

Hate to say it but we need Bledsoe… Baker, mcbuckets and koq… I’d do that trade in a ny minute

We should keep in mind that if Hardaway was playing to his career averages this team would be 1-2 and would look a lot less terrible

Hate to say it but we need Bledsoe… Baker, mcbuckets and koq… I’d do that trade in a ny minute

And the Suns won’t do that trade in a Phoenix century

ppl shouldn’t be calling for the coaches head… esp 3 games into the season…. there’s 79 games left and things can develop.. and development takes time…

things don’t look good now… but losses and having some trade chips put up big box score numbers is probably the best outcome we could hope for….

David Blatt is the experienced guy that comes to mind, though most of his experience (and incredible success) has been in professional leagues outside of the NBA.

Blatt is warming up in the bull pen in Turkey

When we have a team core of KP, Willy, Luka, and Frank you’ll all look back at this season as a necessary evil we had to endure to rebuild.

no one seems to know what they’re doing out there and the offensive sets are awful.

We’re trying to run pnr with the lane clogged because Kanter won’t move away from the basket. Dumping it inside keeps getting picked off because we’re telegraphing an obvious pass and we’re not running screens to free up the passer or get the defense out of position. Did anyone see any double screens last night? Any off ball screens? Lee is saying its because guys don’t know the plays but damn, we’re not failing at complicated stuff we’re failing at rudimentary shit.

I’m not mad at KP or anybody else for taking bad shots last night. They all took bad shots and ran iso when it became obvious that the offense was completely broken. I don’t know what else they could do at that point. Hornacek seemed to have checked out completely before the 2nd quarter.

I don’t give a shit if we suck, it’s a rebuild. I do care that we’re sucking separately, when we really need to be sucking as a team.

Timmy apparently hurt his ankle according to coach. Obviously he won’t shoot like garbage forever.

The big concern is his low stats in nearly every other category.

What’s frustrating is that the Knicks are running out a veteran 3 guard line-up that can’t shoot, pass, penetrate or get out in transition. It’s really mind-boggling. If the Knicks were starting Frank, Dotson, McB, KP, and Willy everyone would be fine with the results but this is just awful.

@180
That’s a very good point. There’s also the issue with the three guard lineup that cannot possibly defend a real 3 type wing.

On the one hand, it makes for a good tank. But again, if the Knicks are still running that lineup out there a couple of months from now, then something bad has gone wrong.

I think our new GM is smart. He knows that OQ and Lee really need to go, for their sake and the team’s sake. I hope.

BTW, with regard to players not knowing what to do on offense, I nominate two guys for sure based on what we’ve seen so far: Kanter and Beasley (there may be more). Kanter is a great post player and offensive rebounder, but he needs to be a better team player. He’s overly focused on getting his shot and crashing the boards.

That’s why he’d be better coming off the bench, and that I think is a very legit criticism of Hornacek so far: his rotations. Start Willy, let Kanter do his thing off the bench. I’d also start McD and bring Lee off the bench.

doncic’s weakest area was his scoring but he’s kicked that up a few notches this year…. he’s doing lebron level things in the acb… and he might end up as good a prospect as he was….

Yeah, it would be great to catch a break for once and draft Doncic.

Dolan’s Razor tho

Small sample size and all, but we’ve currently got 3 players out of our top 8 in minutes played with an efg north of 50% (Ron Baker, Kyle & Kanter).

Knicks’ Backcourt Ranked by WS/48:
Jack: -0.005
Sessions: -0.014
Baker: -0.041
Lee: -0.045
Dotson: -0.142
Hardaway: -0.175
Frank: -0.423

i hate horny’s rotations…

my impression a good part of last year was that he kept throwing shit against the wall to see what would stick…

i’ve rarely had the sense that he’s had a good plan for using his players…

If the Knicks get the #1 overall pick this year I’d be shocked. Luka Doncic is a rare talent and probably the greatest European prospect ever, and having him next to KP would be a different experience. I just don’t see how we’re going to out-tank Chicago and Phoenix.

EDIT: I still think Michael Porter Jr makes too much sense for the Knicks. He can play the three and four next to KP at the 4 or 5, and he’s a dynamic wing with tons of two-way potential.

Stefan Bondy?Verified account @SBondyNYDN 7 hours ago
Hornacek said recently that players not knowing plays is a consequence of a shortened preseason

Bondy’s Tweet
Huh? Aren’t the other teams under the same constraint? How many new players were on the Celtics team? OMG. This guy is pissing me off!

We almost won the Detroit game but that was because KP and Kanter made difficult shots until they didn’t. It wasn’t because our offense was humming along and we were playing well. I have seen less than 5 open three pointers all season. We’ve successfully ran maybe 5 pnrs that resulted in an easy basket.

We have multiple good shooters and effective inside scorers. We should be able to run at least a passable offense some of the time, but we can’t. All those shots KP made in the first two games was with defenders draped on him after working really hard to get position. Kanter and O’Quinn have scored all their points off of offensive rebounds or iso post play.

THJ has been bad but it’s not like he’s missing open shots. He is forcing a lot but he’s is constantly well guarded and getting the ball in terrible positions. Lee and McDermott are barely shooting threes because they’re never open.

This is definitely a coaching problem. Our sets are sloppy, our spacing is non-existent, multiple times I saw us trying to run a PNR and KP and Kanter were both trying to be the screen setter or KP started to roll and there was Kanter or O”Quinn standing under the basket bringing his man over to blow up the pass.

If the players don’t know the offense that’s on the coach, if the players aren’t running the offense that’s also on the coach. We’re not a bad offensive team because we are missing shots we are bad because we’re not ever getting good ones. Everything, shot, pass, screen is hard, nothing flows at all.

Yes my call for his firing has nothing to do with the Knicks being 0-3. Its him. Look at a team like Philly or the Nets. Non of which had a player like KP except for Philly for 3 games last year. Those teams looked competent, but they lacked talent so they lost a lot. That’s what I want. Play the goddamn rookies. If Dotson gets some good experience this year he may be a key rotation player next year. You cant beat NBA game experience. Things like this is what piss me off. Also Willy and Dotson wont be on rookie deals forever, we need to see what we have to know what to do going forward. I just want some cohesiveness and some structure to develop the youngins and build a system. Horny looks like hes trying to scrap wins together, and hes even doing an awful job at that.

@194

That’s it for me. Yes, it’s early, but literally what’s there to like about Hornacek, from last year to today? His rotations are impossible to understand, his players seem to lack even basic understanding of both offense and defense and every now and then a player comes out and puts him on blast.

I get that he doesn’t have a lot of talent and that he had to deal with tons of bullshit, but he has shown literally nothing to be excited about him and if the Knicks do tank, he’ll probably hurt it by trying to keep his job.

I really don’t care if the Knicks lose 70 games, as long as it seems like they have a clue as to what they’re doing. I feel a new coach would have a lot more leeway to create a new system and start getting those youngsters used to it. It’s all about preparation for the seasons to come.

I was very much on the side of keeping Hornacek through this season just because the front office needs to stop acting like petulant children to attract a better coach. But if he can’t get the players playing together in the next few weeks I dunno..

Kind of figures that the coach Phil hired may turn out to be a total bust.

Zen Master – the gift that keeps on giving.

It sounds like we’re all agreeing. If the Knicks started kids and we lost every game but they played hard and showed growth, that would be fine with all of us.

But anyone that saw that train-wreck last night that understands anything about hoops knows that it was a disaster. Damn it, college teams are more organized! Players stood in one spot and didn’t move. There was no cutting. Nobody bodied up on defense. Everyone went ISO. It was beyond awful. It was not pro basketball. After a month of training and 5 pre-season games I expect basic crap to be ingrained in the players.

Oh, and there are good players on this team. It doesn’t look that way because the team sucks but there are individuals that can ball.

The only question now is “How long is Horacek’s rope?”

Yeah KP, Kanter, OQuinn and McBuckets are “good” players for sure. They also need a system.

considering the incredibly long list of “accomplished” basketball folks who’ve come in and out of the door over the last 16/17 years or so – i’m seriously beginning to doubt anyone’s ability to be successful in the knicks organization…

i did though appreciate phil cleaning out some of our medical staff a couple of years ago…

I’m going to play devil’s advocate a bit. I think “showcasing” O’Quinn is a fine idea. He’s the only tradable big besides Willy, and he could ideally net us another first. And even though Kanter’s game is annoying, you can argue that he’s better than Willy at this point. If he can become even Amare-level on D, he’s a decent piece, albeit way overpriced. He can be exceptional at post scoring and rebounding. And maybe that makes him tradable at the deadline too?

So if Willy is underplayed for 30-something games, it’s not the end of the world.

And even though Hardaway sucks, he’s not making excuses. I like his attitude. Maybe he’ll bounce back, maybe he won’t, but it’s too early to tell either way.

My main hope, though, is that Dotson will get some burn at the 3. We need a defender there, and he can hit threes. There’s absolutely no reason to give LT those minutes.

Btw, you guys see the Markkanen highlights? The kid looks like he’ll be a really good piece. I’m sure the Bulls will squander him thoroughly, but damn, I hope we got it right with Frank.

We do have good players at least offensively. Kanter and McDermott have been good to great offensive players, Lee is good at what he does, THJ has been a good offensive player. The big holes on this team are defensive so them being mediocre to poor defensively is to be expected but there is no reason we should be the worst offense in the NBA and have the worst efg%.

It’s been a shameful display so far and our offense in the preseason wasn’t much better. This is on Hornacek. We can’t even execute an entry pass or a screen and roll.

Lol I just realized the Knicks didn’t win a preseason game either. Damn, how long til a win? yikes

Hernangomez should start, Kanter should come off the bench, and Noah should get minutes when there are injuries or they need a legit defensive C because of the matchup. As much as it pains me to say this, O’Quinn has to be the one to be traded on the assumption that Kanter can’t be moved. If that requires us to play him some more, then take some minutes from either Kanter or Hernangomez or both and use all three. Kanter is not a starting C. That may be true of Willy also, but let’s at least find out. Kanter scores in the paint and rebounds well, but he’s clueless on every other level. He’s a backup and that’s all he will ever be.

Some of our players have been good in smaller roles than they have on this team. That, along with not having a good PG and not being fully organized offensively is why the team has sucked on offense. A lot of our players are being asked to do more without the benefit of top players making it easier for them.

and, in real basketball news:

Former NBA commissioner David Stern says he is convinced that marijuana does have medicinal qualities and should be taken off the league’s list of banned substances.

puff, puff, pass dave…

Former NBA commissioner David Stern says he is convinced that marijuana does have medicinal qualities and should be taken off the league’s list of banned substances.

450 NBA players are about to get diagnosed with early signs of glaucoma.

Mills and Perry were at the game last night and they had that look that you have when you’re getting ready to fire the coach.

Former NBA commissioner David Stern says he is convinced that marijuana does have medicinal qualities and should be taken off the league’s list of banned substances.

Hey, don’t Bogart!

@205 – I think we can all agree that O’Quinn, Lee and Thomas are the Knicks that should be on the block.

Mills and Perry were at the game last night and they had that look that you have when you’re getting ready to fire the coach.

I saw that look, but I interpreted a little differently. I thought is was more like this.

“God we suck”.
“Damn that Hardaway contract looks bad”.
“We gave Baker a player option”?
“Do you think Dolan is watching”?
“Does Kanter know what he’s doing out there”?
“Who the hell can we blame this on to save our jobs”?
“I know, let’s blame Hornacek”.
“Hey Steve, get on the phone and use your sources in the news to trash Hornacek like you did to get rid of Phil and take over”.

Hornacek said recently that players not knowing plays is a consequence of a shortened preseason

I believe this. I was thinking it before I read the quote. Not only does Hornacek have almost an entirely new team this season, he specifically stated at the start of the preseason that he would focus on defense in the preseason and change the scheme to make it simpler. The defense is actually better than last year, not only by the stat quoted above, but by the eye test, so I say we need more time. There seem to be more off days in the season than last year. I hope that helps to organize the offense.

The defense is actually better than last year, not only by the stat quoted above, but by the eye test, so I say we need more time.

What?

I think the Pistons are better than people thought. They had injuries last year and added a very good player in Avery Bradley. Plus Stanley Johnson seems to have taken the next step.

The Nets back court is better than the Knicks even without Russell and Lin.

Can’t agree with you on Stanley Johnson. He still looks like a master of no trades to me. And not in the Melo sense.

Jeez, Capela’s numbers are insane so far. .329 WS48, .732 TS%… and that’s not including today’s 7-8, 20 rebound game.

It’s absurd to be talking about firing hornacek, especially when he got handed a brand new team weeks before the season started with melo trade.

GoNY,

Last season we were 28th or 29th in the league in defense. From the post above, we are 25th in the league in defense, which is an improvement, as I said. It is still bad defense, of course, But that is different from unimproved. I watched two games and thought we were somewhat better organized on defense. Kanter is a seive, but we don’t have Rose, who was just as bad. And sometimes we actually look organized on pick and roll defenses.

They gave up 105 points to OKC despite many turnovers, and roughly 110 to Boston and Detroit. Honestly, that is not awful. They just couldn’t score enough to make the games close. So it’s baby steps forward on defense, but at least it’s forward.

Lebron could lead the league in assists any year he wanted to. This Nets team is also vastly more entertaining than the Knicks.

Capela looks primed to take the torch that Tyson Chandler passed to DeAndre Jordan soon

Three of those players suck at defense

Unless you want to play Lance Thomas or start Frank, that’s the lineup. Maybe Baker could switch out for Sessions.

The Nets win was doubly important because it helps to hurt the pick that the Cavs get!

The Suns just beat the Jazz, addiction by subtraction seems to be the name of the game there… here we go Doncic!!!

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