Knicks Morning News (2017.09.17)

  • [NYPost] Damyean Dotson’s quest for redemption comes to Knicks
    (Saturday, September 16, 2017 11:36:52 AM)

    The alleged details are heinous. The accusations are ugly. The sexual assault that nearly ended Damyean Dotson’s basketball career forever will be a part of his story. It may or may not have changed him. Maybe he deserved the second chance he got. Perhaps he was fortunate another school viewed his talent worthy of the…

  • 37 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.09.17)”

    About the last thread, Sir Robin: but the cap in the NBA as we know it was introduced in 84-85… By then, the Lakers had won 8 titles and the Celtics 15 (The Celtics also won 86 and the Lakers 87 and 88 with the teams they had built).

    I’m not saying the cap system is perfect, but since 84-85, Real Madrid has won 13 titles and Barcelona won 15, for reference… Atletico won twice, Valencia won twice and Deportivo won once, and every single season those three others won, Real and / or Barcelona were in the top 3. Atletico Madrid is also in the richest city in Spain, and Valencia would be the 4th or 5th strongest too, just Deportivo was a huge surprise (and a one year deal at it)

    Yes, teams like the Lakers, Spurs or Bulls have been dominant since the cap inception, but that’s nowhere near the dynastic status of Real or Barcelona, 6 titles is the most (by the Bulls) in a single stretch… those teams had to rebuild several times and be successful at it to keep being at the top. It’s a much, much healthier environment where teams that have sucked for long times (Golden State, Cleveland, even San Antonio, Dallas, Detroit in some stretches) have a chance at being rewarded by building well. That would be like Malaga, Levante or Celta de Vigo winning titles.

    I think that “tanking”, in and of itself, isn’t a problem. Teams that are bad need to bleed out to become good again (see Knicks, 2000-2017). Forest fires are actually good for nature in the long run, yet we humans insist on putting them out because they pose a peripheral problem: they effect our property.

    Tanking, too, poses a peripheral problem. Every year at the end of the season there are games with playoff implications being played that involve teams that are racing for the bottom. It’s more
    Of a scheduling fault than anything else, but that is virtually impossible to control for. But it is the worst when two teams are vying for the playoffs, with millions of dollars of revenue on the line, and one team can only sit and watch while their rival plays the Sixers B-team.

    We don’t need to re-invent the league over this. Just make it so that in the last few weeks of the season nobody is losing on purpose.

    Mike K used to argue for setting the lottery position at the all-star break. That’s rarely discussed, but goes a long way toward addressing the actually problem with tanking.

    Like the NFL, Signing bonus plus partially guaranteed contracts. Salary cap and guaranteed contracts are a bad recipe. Players can get cut and sign somewhere else for their actual value. Players union would balk but it’d be worth a lockout to get it done. Present system is bad for fans. More FA’s would be fun and teams could benefit from getting out from under their own red ink and fill holes in their rosters more economically.

    The present draft lottery might be OK if we do the above. I’d be for increasing the odds slightly for teams like ours who actually try to stay competitive.

    @2. Bruno you make good points but I think the very nature of the small number of players and the fact that the top players tilting the field naturally leads to an imbalance which is difficult to counteract. But thanks for proactive response and data.

    @6

    I agree, the NBA is a different beast. Soccer’ s talent pool is much more diversified and spread, while the smaller rosters and more positional overlap in the NBA would make for a different environment.

    I believe the example is valuable still for some reasons: In 2013 Real Madrid spent a gazillion dollars buying a dude by the name of Isco, a rising star in a weaker team (Malaga). Real already had a superstar squad, specially on Isco’s position, and thus he barely saw the field, struggled a bit at the start but eventually became a good player and got more opportunities. If you are Isco, would you rather be the superstar player of 12th placed Malaga, or the 2nd man out of the bench for league winners Real Madrid. Let’s rephrase it, if you’re Karl Anthony Towns, would you rather be the superstar player of the perennial 30-52 Wolves or the 6th man of the 60-22 Lakers, competing every single year for the title, with a better salary? With a chance to eventually be the star of the next Lakers stretch of dominance when your vets retire or are no longer top level? Sure, some players would be attached to some teams by their life stories or the way they think, just like it happens in soccer, but it’s a few guys only and it leads to an incredible concentration of talent which is ultimately terrible for any professional league imo.

    Bruno. you keep making good points. We’re seeing concentrations of talent for a number of reasons. the pure luck of the draw ( Lebron) bumbling management ( NYKs, et al. ) the relatively small rosters, the dilutive effects of expansion, which only exacerbates the talent disparity, sub-market inequalities, and so on. All of these factors lead to extreme value in the top tier of players.

    I ML baseball, only 2 of the existing teams has never appeared in a,World Series. In the NBA 12 of the existing teams has never won a championship.

    I don’t have a workable solution to the NBA probkem, but there is a problem.

    @8

    I agree there are issues, for sure, but it’s rough because of the nature of basketball… transcendental mega stars are very few and there can only be 10 players on the court at any given time, so the impact of a Lebron James or Michael Jordan is incredible. The impact of a true mega star in the NBA is so much higher than that of a star player on the MLB (who either plays 1 out of 5-4 games or 4-5 at bats) or the NFL where a star sits for half the game, that’s why soccer is the closest analogy I can think of, and even then the average NBA superstar is probably more impactful overall than Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo.

    That means the NBA will be always defined by the top end teams with the greatest superstars… at least the cap and the draft ensure that those guys won’t necessarily always be in the same 2-3 teams every year.

    Getting back to our young prospects, I’m really thrilled with what we’re putting together. You know how much I like Frank but I really have hope down the line for Dotson, XRM, Kornet and Jaramaz. XRM is intriguing.

    @9. Bruno we’d like to think it self corrects but what we have to look forward to is West which has 3 to 5 good teams playing a finals against a farm system team. Made worse each year with the talent consistently flowing east to west.

    Abd if you look at the draft on a conference level, some of the west’s lottery teams would be upper seed in the east, with nearly the same odds of landing the rare talents in each draft.

    Add on the “banana boat mentality” of some player like Chris Paul and it is getting difficult for any east team to rise above the bittom.

    Getting rid of the advantage teams have in resigning their players would resolve the problem with long term tanking: get good or the prospects will leave. It would punish bad front offices for their failure to improve the team while still giving bad teams an opportunity to improve.

    @11

    I agree the system has flaws, but well… The banana boat mentality it’s something that nothing can be done about, players have the right to at least choose somewhat where they go and if they become friends and want to team up how can the league really interfere? The issue of talent flowing west is just that unfortunately it happens that the most well managed teams are in the west, not much can be done here either. Miami managed to do it in the east because of luck (Wade being there), geographical placement and having Pat Riley, but I can’t fault players for going to Houston, San Antonio or Golden State instead of joining the Knicks or Cavs or Wizards.

    Golden State, for all the talks of super team, managed to do so by great drafting. If David Kahn wasn’t stupid enough to draft two PGs ahead of Curry the entire landscape of the NBA now could be completely different, and they deserve props for finding Klay and Draymond where they did.

    Off topic, but Slovenia won Eurobasket behind Dragic and Doncic. I think the most encouraging development from all of this is that Latvia hung in close with the Eurobasket champs and would have probably won if Porzingis had his foul woes down. The kid is close to stardom.

    Damyean Dotson is a rapist.

    Of course, because in the academic environment, if some woman accuses you of that, it must be true. No trial is necessary and you don’t get an opportunity to defend yourself.

    Oh, I’m fucking crying because someone had to transfer schools for maybe raping someone. What a terrible injustice.

    The Dotson situation is pretty interesting (I use interesting for lack of better words right now) from a fans perspective. On one hand, you always want to get around the rookies. In interviews he comes off well also. On the other hand, the accusations and reports surrounding his matter are pretty heavy and somewhat damning. Playing basketball well is one thing, but is there anything someone can do to ever come back from that and redeem their character? For as great as Kobe was, there will always be Colorado, so maybe not.

    Of course, because in the academic environment, if some woman accuses you of that, it must be true. No trial is necessary and you don’t get an opportunity to defend yourself.

    Betsy DeVos reads Knickerblogger?

    In the NY Post article above, the encounter is told with enough details that we don’t need some feelgood bullshit avout “second chances.” They raped her near-unconscious body until she started crying. She reportedly said no throughout the encounter. And he wrote texts to her confirming the encounter was nonconsenting.

    Don’t come on here spouting that “Title IX is unjust” bullshit. He’s a rapist.

    Well, I’m pretty sure if he is a really good player he’ll be redeemed no matter what by fans / media etc.

    Rape culture is real and males are constantly let off the hook (see Rose, Derrick) if they’re even mildly successful elsewhere or if there’s any minuscule reason for doubt about what really happened.

    Not saying he should not be given the benefit of the doubt or that he should be thrown to the wolves or whatever, just saying that I really don’t give a damn about him. He already has opportunities and will have every chance to success despite everything because he’s a man and he seems to be talented and that’s what happens in such cases. Don’t expect me to cheer gleefully and hope he has a lot of success tho, as I’ve seen enough of those cases to assume the worst every time.

    Yeah but Jowles he had to transfer schools and now people can write mean things on blogs he doesn’t read, think about the real victim here.

    Well, I’m pretty sure if he is a really good player he’ll be redeemed no matter what by fans / media etc.

    Yup. Kobe Bryant raped a woman and won MVP a few years later.

    Yeah but Jowles he had to transfer schools and now people can write mean things on blogs he doesn’t read, think about the real victim here.

    I was surprised by the tone that NYP took in that article. They were basically like, “For better or worse, here we are.” I expected much more pro-rape apologism on their part.

    @24

    Yeah, the post article pretty much makes it seem like he has plain admitted doing it.

    I believe he can be a nice dude who hanged with the wrong people in the wrong place and wrong time, but he’s gonna have to show a lot more to get me to root for a rapist.

    @25

    You’re trying too hard on your anti-“sjw” crusade, friend.

    Jowles, all the details of the incident are quotes from or sourced from her. The only thing Dotson said was that his behavior was inappropriate. I believe that, but that isn’t necessarily rape. So you heard her side of the story and, since she’s the accuser, she must be telling the whole truth? The DA decided not to press charge, and he heard all the evidence.

    There are many articles about how the academic system doesn’t give the accused a fair shake. For examples, here’s one in the very liberal publication, The Atlantic magazine. https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/09/vanessa-grigoriadis-talks-consent/540003/ And here’s one from the NY Times, another liberal publication. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/13/opinion/devos-campus-rape-liberalism.html and links therein I am a liberal myself and don’t like Betsy DeVos, and nor do I think that colleges are always fair to women when student athletes are accused, but I still don’t buy it that accused people don’t deserve some sort of fair system of justice, and I don’t believe they get that in college.

    Off topic, but does the D-Wade Cleveland signing get Melo to reconsider Cleveland as a trade destination? Doubtful imo, but that would be a win for us with a bit more “competition” out there for his services.

    KnickfaninNJ, there are plenty of blogs you can go to to cry about the injustice of a man who had sex with a very drunk woman until she started crying and he felt bad having to switch schools. Don’t make this one of them

    I am not complaining about the injustice to Dotson. He seems to be doing alright. The Knicks may have gotten a good player because of his troubles, which I think is a good thing. I am willing to judge him on his behavior here, not on one incident in the past. But I think a lot of the posters on this board are very unhappy to have him. Basically, they think he should be punished for life for something that was probably bad behavior, but not necessarily a crime, and hasn’t been proven. That is the attitude I am complaining about (and Jowles’ attitude that the girl must be right, whatever she said is what happened) If you read the articles I linked to, you will see what I mean about the badness of the college justice system

    I am very unhappy to have Dotson on this team, but I don’t want him punished for life or anything. Im all for people having second chances, even convicted murderers or rapists. Just dont try to convince me into feeling bad for the poor kid who isn’t being given a fair chance because he was allegedly involved in a gang rape.

    It’s not that hard to not be allegedly involved in a gang rape, and as much as what you argue might be factually true in the college justice system, I’d easily argue that the amount of males unfairly punished for doing nothing is far outweighed by the number of cases where women were discredited, abused and ignored in their attempts to denounce such abuses. Specially considering many cases of abuse don’t get reported because victims are either too scared of get downright discredited and ignored right away for accusing those poor, amazingly awesome everybody loves them talented kids.

    I agree with just about everything that Bruno said in the above post, except that for black men in a white world (African amaricans at Oregon are only 2%), not being allegedly involved in a gang rape might actually be harder than you imagine.

    Dude, if you think it’s good the Knicks got a player because he raped a woman and that led to him falling in the draft you should rethink things and take a long look at yourself

    You all seem to think I am happy with rapists. Nothing could be farther from the truth. But I have doubts what he did consituted rape and think he deserves the benefit of the doubt since he was neither tried nor convicted of anything. (Except or course, in the popular press, and we have experience here in NY with the accuracy of the popular press)

    Did any of you vote for Bill Clinton?

    Johnny Hoops wins teh interwebz for the day. Game…. Set…. Match!

    think he deserves the benefit of the doubt since he was neither tried nor convicted of anything.

    I tentatively agree. It’s hard because of how much injustice there’s been.

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