Knicks Morning News (2017.06.25)

  • [NYDN] From war-torn Rwanda to Knicks, the journey of Frank Ntilikina
    (Saturday, June 24, 2017 10:44:47 PM)

    To understand what truly drives Frank Ntilikina, one must travel back two decades and cross the Atlantic Ocean.

  • [NYDN] With or without Porzingis, Phil’s in it for long haul with Knicks
    (Saturday, June 24, 2017 7:52:22 PM)

    Should the kid, Kristaps Porzingis, have attended an exit meeting with his boss after the Knicks’ season mercifully ended? Sure.

  • [NYDN] Dolan happy as Jax takes the heat and Knick fans fill his wallet
    (Saturday, June 24, 2017 7:55:00 AM)

    The bet here is Garden boss James (Guitar Jimmy) Dolan felt no angst over the media fallout surrounding Phil Jackson.

  • [NYTimes] Q&A: Red Auerbach Told Bill Russell, ‘I’m the Coach and You’ll Fit’
    (Saturday, June 24, 2017 7:35:03 PM)

    Russell, the Boston Celtics star, recalls in a Q. and A. how he and his peers transformed basketball and perceptions of blacks in professional sports.

  • [NYTimes] For W.N.B.A.’s Oldest Rookie, a Lot of Persistence Goes a Long Way
    (Saturday, June 24, 2017 5:52:26 PM)

    After playing for years overseas, Yvonne Turner of the Phoenix Mercury is still coming to grips with the fact that she has finally reached her goal, at age 29.

  • [NY Newsday] Frank Ntilikina excited to team with Kristaps Porzingis, run triangle
    (Saturday, June 24, 2017 5:39:30 PM)

    Frank Ntilikina joins a long list of people who is relieved that the Knicks didn’t trade Kristaps Porzingis on draft night. Ntilikina believes he can flourish with Porzingis.

  • [NYPost] The Knicks’ Carmelo-Porzingis problem no one dares speak of
    (Saturday, June 24, 2017 6:51:16 PM)

    As a practical basketball matter, let’s go back to the 2015 NBA draft, when we might have heard, “With the fourth overall selection, the Knicks select 7-foot-3 Kristaps Porzingis.” “Wow! Tell us more.” “Well, he has one specialty.” “What’s that?” “Outside shooting.” Perhaps it has something to do — or a lot to do —…

  • [NYPost] Derrick Rose wants to be a Knick but voice from the past is calling
    (Saturday, June 24, 2017 6:35:28 PM)

    B.J. Armstrong, the agent for Derrick Rose, isn’t surprised the Timberwolves, with Tom Thibodeau their president and head coach, have emerged again as potential suitors for his client. But he hopes at least to meet with the Knicks before the free-agency period begins July 1. “If it was up to Tom, he’d reunite with all…

  • [NYPost] Fran Fraschilla is high on only one of the Knicks’ foreign picks
    (Saturday, June 24, 2017 5:01:31 PM)

    Fran Fraschilla, ESPN’s draft guru, knows the international basketball scene from top to bottom: from Frenchman Frank Ntilikina, the top international prospect in this year’s NBA draft, to the most obscure, Ognjen Jaramaz of Serbia — both of whom were selected by the Knicks. After the Knicks made Ntilkina a lottery selection with the No….

  • [NYPost] Meet Frank Ntilikina, who trusts Phil Jackson and has just one hobby
    (Saturday, June 24, 2017 12:37:23 PM)

    Knicks first-round draft pick Frank Ntilikina, an 18-year-old French League point guard taken eighth overall on Thursday, takes a shot at some Q&A with Post columnist Steve Serby. Q: What would you want to tell Knicks fans about Phil Jackson? A: He has a system that brings a lot of championships. We have to trust…

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks pick Frank Ntilikina could be perfect fit for the triangle
    (Saturday, June 24, 2017 7:32:10 PM)

    Unable to trade up in the lottery, the Knicks held on to the No. 8 pick and selected French point guard Frank Ntilikina, who was promptly greeted with a mix of cheers and boos when his name was announced by NBA Commissioner Adam Silver at Barclays Center.

  • [SNY Knicks] Jerome Williams returns to New York for BIG3 with fond memories
    (Saturday, June 24, 2017 2:22:30 PM)

    The BIG3, set to kick off Sunday, June 25th at the Barclays Center, is a basketball league that figures to give nostalgic fans an opportunity to look back on fond memories of their basketball fandoms by featuring some of their favorite players.

  • 94 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.06.25)”

    Source with knowledge of this information told me: Thibs In Serious Contact With Derrick Rose Agent BJ Armstrong waiting to be confirmed.— Jonathan Bates (@JonathanJBates) June 23, 2017

    Thibs needs to look at 2016-2017 Derrick Rose highlight reels with the announcers gushing “that looks like the old Derrick Rose right there!”

    Make it happen Minnesota! (Oh, and send Rubio our way please.)

    Didn’t Rose and Butler hate each other? To the point where they wouldn’t even pass the ball to each other in Chicago?

    Does it benefit the twolves to sign and trade rose vs. sign him straight up?

    One can hope right!?!

    I think Armstrong is just using the past connection with Thibs and the Knicks to create a market for Rose. I don’t believe either team has strong interest in signing him unless it’s on favorable and cheap terms.

    “We got this kid Porzingis, his real strength is his ability to shoot from outside for a tall guy”

    “Oh wow, that sounds pretty valuable-what should we do”?

    “Post him up on guys much stronger than him because that’s what men do”

    “Post him up on guys much stronger than him because that’s what men do”

    No…. because that’s how you stop teams from covering him on the perimeter with 6 for 6 guys! You would like to think when your 7 foot 3 guy is covered by a 6 foot 6 guy it isn’t a bad match up for you! But if he can’t post up it is a bad match up generally. And I mean a bad match up for a guy that is supposed to be a big positive match up against almost anyone.

    When the Celts can cover him with smalls and not have to pay a price …..

    I just wanted to jump on real quick to say good morning. Nothin Knicks or NBA related..yet. I on’t know..I kinda had a negative epiphany about myself earlier this morning and it left me in a great mood after I dealt with it. Weird. So, I wanted to share a good vibe or 2 lol, and say good morning to every poster & commenter. I’ll be back later with crazy hoops related thoughts for sure

    Peace homeskillets!
    Told you..it’s a weird feeling

    Ron, Willy and Kuz all playing Summer League. Pretty solid indication that Ron will be back next year.

    “We got this kid Porzingis, his real strength is his ability to shoot from outside for a tall guy”

    “Oh wow, that sounds pretty valuable-what should we do”?

    “Post him up on guys much stronger than him because that’s what men do”

    The ability for KP to “shoot from the outside” is best manifested when he is covered by a big who is like a fish out of water and uncomfortable far away from the rim. When he is played by a mobile 6-6 to 6-8 guy, he can’t get as free on the perimeter and get his feet as set and he has to chase around the perimeter on the other end keeping him away from the rim where we want him.

    He’s got to learn for force other teams out of that match up by crushing mush shorter guys in the post so they have to sub out of that match up.

    Another season of KP flying around the perimeter getting pump faked to the bench is going to make me vomit. But yeah…. practicing for months with the Latvian National Team is going to remedy that egregious short coming.

    I guess you want a 7 foot 3 inch Novak who can block shots, but he can never get within 15 feet of the rim on the defensive end because he’s busy guarding 6-6 guys behind the arc.

    Didn’t Rose and Butler hate each other? To the point where they wouldn’t even pass the ball to each other in Chicago?

    I remember their relationship being an issue also.

    @bobneptune

    You are 100% correct. +1000

    The ONLY way to make sure that opposing teams don’t put smaller faster guys on the court to take advantage of their speed against KP is for KP to punish them even worse on the inside and make the match up too much of a negative to sustain.

    As it is now, teams often put smaller quicker guys on KP, he can’t guard them on the perimeter, but KP has no post game to punish them back worse. So you have to take KP out of the game or lose the match up.

    No one wants KP posting up all the time on offense when shooting 3s creates space, drags big men out, and he’s probably going to keep getting better and better at it until he approaches 40%, but the THREAT has to be there so they don’t go small on him.

    Interesting how the Mushnick article alludes to Janis a couple of times but does not say his first name. I really wonder if he might be part of the problem.

    The Knicks have signed Jamel Artis as well, perhaps stealing him from Miami. Any thoughts on him? Also, Xavier Rathan-Mayes.

    If one of Hayes, Kornet, Barry, or Artis could pan out as a rotation player, that would be nice.

    From the last thread:

    I fully understand the 76er approach of blowing up a team completely, fully tanking, and collecting as many high lottery picks as possible. I totally approve of that approach assuming you have an owner and fan base that can deal with it. They couldn’t deal with it in Philly. That’s why the brain child is gone.

    There’s NO WAY we could deal with it in NY.

    We’ve been in a kind hybrid mode where we are trying to rebuild young for the long term, but also want to put a somewhat competitive team on the court because NEW YORK.

    We won 32 and 31 games the last 2 years and every article from Frank Asshola is about how terrible Phil is and how terrible his cumulative record in NY is. Same thing on ESPN, the radio and everywhere else. The Knicks operate in a media environment where EVERYONE is rooting for us to fail.

    Phil is trying to rebuild taking a more middle of the road approach where he can still accumulate good young players, but not put a 15-20 win team on the court every year. The press would never tolerate it, the fans are going crazy about 30 win teams, and Phil and the coach would never survive it.

    What he is doing will not maximize the results, but it will allow him to build a good team over several years. Then once we are good, free agents will get more interested.

    I don’t understand what you’re saying here. So you think the press eats the Knicks alive because they root for the Knicks to fail, and yet we can’t rebuild because…the press wouldn’t tolerate it?

    If you think the press will rip Phil to shreds no matter what he does, isn’t that the best argument for completely ignoring them and actually rebuilding?

    I think the truth is Phil actually doesn’t care much about the press, and has been trying to do this rebuild-that-isn’t-actually-a-rebuild-because-we-aren’t-gaining-any-assets thing because he genuinely thinks it’s the best way to go about his job, because he is not good at his…

    The defense of the “hybrid” approach drives me a little bit nuts. Let’s do two things half-assed instead of doing one thing well. Sounds like a great recipe for success.

    I think it’s just a fact about KP at this stage that as much as we’d like him to have a big advantage against smaller, stronger guys in the post he does not. He’s been a bad post player so far, running bottom third percentile and .8 in PPP. The best you can say about that is it’s better than Willy. If anything teams tend to over-post weak post players when they seem to have an advantage but don’t, you see it with Vucevic, Whiteside, Drummond, etc.

    We shouldn’t treat KP much differently than normal when he’s against smaller defenders, I think, with three exceptions. One, we should stop ISO-ing him on the outside altogether in those situations, which we sometimes do and it makes no sense because his “good handle for a 7′ 3″ guy” is worthless in those spots. Two, we should force the roll in the PNR and the cuts in the option cut/spot plays a little more often than we otherwise would. Third, we should have a more creative and complex set of plays which use the backdoor screen for a KP lob-cut as a direct threat or misdirection setup.

    Posting KP against PJ Tucker is like running Willie Gault over the middle against a short LB. KP has an advantage cutting against basically any 6’6″ guy assuming a decent pass, and even the mere threat of it is a play-starter because the defense almost always reacts. Cutting also exploits the kind of ORB edge he has against when the ball doesn’t go to him. His 1.4 PPP on cuts was elite last year and he is a good PNR roll guy who can always-always get off an effective catch and shoot 3 against shorter guy off the pop when he doesn’t roll. I think we should treat him like he’s 50% DeAndre Jordan and 50% Steve Novak unless he’s matched up against a slow-footed traditional big. This still creates plenty of efficient offensive potential.

    If Rose gets S&Ted to the Wolves for Rubio, y’all gonna be mad when I start predicting 45-50 wins. Gonna be a weird time for everyone. I don’t think I’ve predicted a winning season since 2012.

    Anyway to get Patrick Beverley and his 2/10 contract on this team? I could go for that. Houston is trying to clear cap space for Chris Paul, maybe they’d like to unload either Ryan Anderson or Eric Gordon?

    If Rose gets S&Ted to the Wolves for Rubio, y’all gonna be mad when I start predicting 45-50 wins. Gonna be a weird time for everyone. I don’t think I’ve predicted a winning season since 2012.

    Welcome to bizarro Knickerblogger.

    Next thing you know Reub will be predicting a losing season and calling Phil an idiot.

    There is nothing wrong with a hybrid approach to rebuilding.

    What do you think San Antonio has been doing all along?

    What do you think the Rockets have been doing?

    What do you think the Celtics have been doing?

    If anything, most of the data on the subject indicates that blowing things up completely and trying to build entirely through the draft is the least successful approach. I don’t necessarily buy into those studies because I think it depends who’s doing the drafting, but still.

    If it’s Orlando, New Orleans, Sacramento or a bunch of other teams it doesn’t work so well.

    If it’s the Spurs it would probably work really well.

    What makes the hybrid approach the best possible path is that you can benefit from the draft, trades, and/or free agency. The idea is to accumulate undervalued assets. That means you can build your team drafting them, making value enhancing trades, or by signing good players to attractive contracts.

    As you build your team, you can then make trades and roll up into better players.

    So for example, Courtney Lee doesn’t fit into a total draft rebuild, but he’s a good 2 way player on a fair contract. Acquiring him was a great idea. For all we know he may land us Ricky Rubio or a pick!

    Get it?

    That’s what these other successful teams do. As long as you have attractive contracts, they can be traded for future draft picks or rolled up into better players.

    What slowed us down so much was that Phil didn’t have a 1st round pick in 2 of the 3 years since he took over and our team was so bad, it was close to impossible to sign any good free agents on attractive contracts. So to cope he signed mediocre players to short term contracts (Jennings, Afflalo, Williams)

    Again, The only major mistake Phil made was signing Noah. The moment the ink dried on that deal it was close to impossible to move it. The rest of this stuff is just nonsense coming from inept media types that hate the Knicks.

    Again, The only major mistake Phil made was signing Noah.

    Yeh, that MMM NTC contract was effin’ sweet

    If anything, most of the data on the subject indicates that blowing things up completely and trying to build entirely through the draft is the least successful approach.

    Did you miss the part where the Warriors drafted 4 of their 5 starters on their 73-win team?

    That’s what these other successful teams do. As long as you have attractive contracts, they can be traded for future draft picks or rolled up into better players.

    And the attractive contracts that Phil acquired were… Uh, nobody? Robin Lopez was an attractive contract I guess, but Phil pissed that away to see if Derrick Rose was still good. Spoiler alert: he wasn’t. Phil pays market value for players, or sometimes above market value. The veterans Phil signed either have negative trade value (Noah) or very limited trade value (Lee, KOQ). Phil’s other big move, Melo, is a disaster because of the NTC.

    D-Will, Afflalo, Lee, Noah, Melo, Rose– these were all water-treading moves. The only reason things are looking even somewhat better for the Knicks these days is because of the guys they have acquired in the draft. And Phil didn’t trade those picks away, so he gets a cookie for that. But if they had prioritized acquiring MORE guys in the draft, things would probably be looking even better. As it is, this is going to be a slow and tedious rebuild. Which is better than no rebuild at all I guess.

    @ jowls – yes the warriors built their team largely through the draft. But lets look at where they drafted their players:

    Steph Curry – 7th pick
    Klay Thompson – 11th pick
    Draymond Green – 2nd round, 35th pick

    I’m only gonna focus on those 3 because those are the original big three. Iggy and Durant they signed through free agency.

    I would say those were draft picks acquired not from bottoming out like the 76ers did. In fact if they had bottomed out they probably don’t pick Steph or Klay. They might have ended up with Harden, which would have been good. But they could have ended up with Rubio or Blake Griffin or Hasheem Thabeet!

    Just saying. They built their team through the draft. But they didn’t build it through tanking. The Warriors never intentionally bottomed out.

    @20 ptmilo

    No one is saying KP is a good post player now or that he should be in the post a lot of time now. We are saying he sucks in there now and that’s a major problem! That’s why it’s a huge priority for him to get stronger and add a post game. If he doesn’t add that piece to his game teams are going to keep going small on him and have an advantage over the Knicks when theoretically having a 7’3″ big man that can knock down 3s is supposed to be a monumental advantage for us every single night.

    This is the way it’s supposed to work.

    If the other team goes big, KP is positioned on the outside.

    That drags the big defender away the paint (where he usually protects the rim and get rebounds). That’s good for us. It also gives KP the advantage on offense because he’s more athletic than most bigs who are also not used to guarding on the perimeter.

    If the other team goes small, KP is positioned in the post and punishes that player so badly they have to throw up the white flag on small ball.

    We don’t have the small ball counter. So they go small, defend KP well enough, and kill KP on the other end.

    If Rose gets S&Ted to the Wolves for Rubio, y’all gonna be mad when I start predicting 45-50 wins. Gonna be a weird time for everyone. I don’t think I’ve predicted a winning season since 2012.

    Why wouldn’t they be 10+ games better with a PG that is competent on both sides of the ball and an exquisite passer? Add to that a rookie who has shown the ability to shoot a good 3 ball and is supposed to be a terrific defender. Is it possible to quantify the difference in defense in the back court when it is that mammoth? Add two young bigs, KOQ and whatever Noah brings to the table as a complete bonus?

    Did you miss the part where the Warriors drafted 4 of their 5 starters on their 73-win team?

    There are examples of teams winning with every approach under the sun (the Heat, the Cavs, the big 3 Celtics). The data suggests that pure drafting is not a very good approach, but as I said, it depends on who is doing the drafting. I am not opposed to drafting. IMO it’s should be a core part of our strategy because we are good at it.

    I just had a private discussion with Isola on this very subject and took the pro draft position for the Knicks using the Warriors as an example. He kept harping on the fact that the Knicks still suck after 3 years of Phil and I pointed out we didn’t have a pick in 2 of those 3 years that the Warriors still sucked for several years after they drafted Curry and Klay.

    Isola hates Dolan. Phil and the Knicks and is incapable of finding a balanced view on any subject pertaining to the team. He should be on ignore. But most people commenting on the Kicks are similar.

    @ jowls – yes the warriors built their team largely through the draft. But lets look at where they drafted their players:

    Steph Curry – 7th pick
    Klay Thompson – 11th pick
    Draymond Green – 2nd round, 35th pick

    I’m only gonna focus on those 3 because those are the original big three. Iggy and Durant they signed through free agency.

    Barnes was a #7 pick, too. Do we need to go over the fact that the Cavs parlayed three #1 overall picks into a championship team? Sure, they got lucky with the #1 or #2 greatest player to step on a court having been born in Akron, but they’re not winning without the value of multiple #1 picks as trade assets.

    Or how about the Thunder sucking for multiple years and drafting three All-NBA first-team caliber players in consecutive years? Remember, they could have kept the 2014 MVP and the 2017 MVP and MVP runner-up were it not for their great love of Kendrick Perkins and not paying luxury tax.

    High draft pick only means you have a chance to make a decision before anyone else. It appears that lots of teams are terrible at those decisions.

    Why wouldn’t they be 10+ games better with a PG that is competent on both sides of the ball and an exquisite passer?

    That’s exactly what I’m saying. People tend to think that I just predict 25 wins a season because I hate Dolan. Well, I do hate Dolan (if you’re reading this, Jimmy: fuck you), but I think Rubio is an elite two-way PG and is far more valuable than most of our advanced stats would suggest.

    @JK47

    The attractive contracts Phil acquired were KOQ, Lee, Lopez.

    The filler contracts were Jennings, Afflalo, and Willams.

    The bad contract Phil acquired was Noah.

    I’m putting Lance in the “incomplete” category. I want to see one more year.

    The 3 fillers are gone, 3 of 4 of the good contracts are still here and can remain or be traded depending on the available options. Lopez was traded, but we have all that cap space available this year to use on another player or two (a 1 year wait). So it was not a significant event assuming we sign fair contracts this summer.

    What is your standard for doing a good job?

    Do we have hit a home run on every trade and does every free agent signing have to be a grand slam.

    It doesn’t work that way, especially when you are rebuilding from scratch and the entire national media is saying how terrible you are, how terrible Dolan is, how terrible the triangle is, how terrible Phil is etc… 24 hours a day.

    When our kids start peaking and we are a playoff team, players will start telling their agents they want to come to NY and it will get a lot easier.

    What makes the hybrid approach the best possible path is that you can benefit from the draft, trades, and/or free agency. The idea is to accumulate undervalued assets. That means you can build your team drafting them, making value enhancing trades, or by signing good players to attractive contracts.

    Phil Jackson has drafted some players with picks we already had, sure. I’d even go as far as saying he’s been above average at that aspect of rebuilding. As for everything else you mentioned, what are some example of the Phil-lead Knicks actually doing any of it?

    So for example, Courtney Lee doesn’t fit into a total draft rebuild, but he’s a good 2 way player on a fair contract. Acquiring him was a great idea. For all we know he may land us Ricky Rubio or a pick!

    The “For all we know” in this sentence does a lot of work. What if we can’t get anything for Courtney Lee because he’s an unremarkable, old player signed for a lot of years and money? I’m going to go ahead and wait to give Phil Jackson credit for getting value for Lee until he…gets value for Lee.

    What slowed us down so much was that Phil didn’t have a 1st round pick in 2 of the 3 years since he took over and our team was so bad, it was close to impossible to sign any good free agents on attractive contracts. So to cope he signed mediocre players to short term contracts (Jennings, Afflalo, Williams)

    I don’t understand how that last sentence is supposed to be regarded as some small, understandable thing. So instead of using cap space to acquire assets, Phil used it to acquire players that really didn’t help us “win now” at all (seriously, Afflalo and Williams’ production is almost always available on the waiver wire, and Jennings was waived).

    The “For all we know” in this sentence does a lot of work. What if we can’t get anything for Courtney Lee because he’s an unremarkable, old player signed for a lot of years and money? I’m going to go ahead and wait to give Phil Jackson credit for getting value for Lee until he…gets value for Lee.

    I’m hesitant to use the media as a source, but I saw a couple of reports from people I do trust that suggested there was interest in Courtney Lee. The thing is, Phil likes Lee and seems to want to keep him.

    I don’t understand how that last sentence is supposed to be regarded as some small, understandable thing. So instead of using cap space to acquire assets, Phil used it to acquire players that really didn’t help us “win now” at all (seriously, Afflalo and Williams’ production is almost always available on the waiver wire, and Jennings was waived).

    The Knicks DID try to acquire one of Portland’s picks using cap space but were badly outbid. To take on a bad contract, you better make sure you are getting a pick/player you want because there is an opportunity cost lost keeping that dead wood on your cap. Cap space is an asset.

    It’s better to sign place holders to short term deals than to sign players that are not going to be part of the long term core to long term deals like many other teams do. As you keep rotating them off, you continue to have that cap space year after year until you can fill it the way you want.

    As of today Phil has never flipped a player on an “attractive contract” for young players or draft picks. He traded the attractive Lopez contract for a pile of nothing, and the other supposedly attractive contracts have not actually attracted anything. The KOQ contract in particular has very little value because you’re only getting one year of KOQ at a bargain price. Maybe Phil can flip Courtney Lee for something. That would be nice. But I’m not going to give him credit for something that has not actually happened.

    @18 thenoblefacehumper

    I don’t understand what you’re saying here. So you think the press eats the Knicks alive because they root for the Knicks to fail, and yet we can’t rebuild because…the press wouldn’t tolerate it?

    I think the press impacts the perception of fans and part of the job of the owner/management is to keep the fans happy so they keep coming to games, paying high ticket prices, buying merchandise and jerseys, watching on MSG etc… I think the media is generally very hostile to the Knicks and that makes the job of management in NY more difficult. Everything gets blown up and everything gets spun negatively as it is. If we tried to rebuild like the 76ers the level of patience would be much lower than it was in Philly (and obviously they ran out of patience there because they fired the guy).

    So we’re forever doomed to mediocrity– and we have now mostly sucked for a decade and a half– because the gutless people who run this team buy into the stupid “you can’t rebuild in NY” canard. Great.

    But I’m not going to give him credit for something that has not actually happened.

    It’s not necessary to flip a good contract for it to be a good thing. Having the attractive contract is a good thing by itself because that means you can fill the end of the roster with better players due to the extra cap space.

    I did leave one important contract out. I don’t like the Melo contract and especially don’t like the NTC. So I agree with everyone on that. To play devil’s advocate again though, I’ve always wondered if the NTC was the tradeoff for taking a slight discount. Either way, we would have been better off just letting him walk and having the cap space rather than signing him, The problem is that Phil would have been utterly crucified by the press for getting nothing in return because the media would not understand that the cap space has value and they overrate Melo. If there were legit trades on the table, I never saw them.

    So we’re forever doomed to mediocrity– and we have now mostly sucked for a decade and a half– because the gutless people who run this team buy into the stupid “you can’t rebuild in NY” canard. Great.

    We are going to keep improving as long as Phil keeps doing what he is doing. It would be nice if he hit one grand slam while he’s here (like that Rose for Rubio trade that the T-Wolves pulled out of at the last minute), but if he keeps drafting good young talent and doesn’t make any more major errors like Noah, we will be good in a couple of years. If we get someone like Rubio, I agree with the earlier comments that we could get pretty good very quickly.

    Charley Rosen thinks the Knicks should re-sign Rose, I hope Phil feels the same way!!

    Charley Rosen thinks the Knicks should re-sign Rose, I hope Phil feels the same way!!

    I was afraid of this. I could tell from Phil’s comments that he thought Rose was playing a lot better in the second half and he liked the exist meeting a lot.

    Maybe sign him and then trade him to T-Wolves for Rubio later. I know I’m reaching, but signing Rose even to a 1 year deal with a 1 year team option does not seem like a good idea.
    https://www.fanragsports.com/nba/knicks/rosen-knicks-re-sign-derrick-rose/

    The attractive contracts Phil acquired were KOQ, Lee, Lopez.

    The filler contracts were Jennings, Afflalo, and Willams.

    The bad contract Phil acquired was Noah.

    I’m putting Lance in the “incomplete” category. I want to see one more year.

    Melo’s contract should put in the “terrible contract” category.

    And I don’t think Lee is an attractive contract. Phil tried to move him and so far got nothing. He’s also an average 32 yo player and there is a good chance that he won’t worth his contract until the end of it.
    It’s not a bad contract, but it’s not attractive too.

    Edit: I saw that you already answered before, so nevermind

    The Rose deal was bad, especially as Lopez was an inexpensive stop gap while we were seeing how KP and Willy worked out. The Melo contract was horrible because even if you get him to waive the ntc nobody wants him due to the 15% trade kicker. The Noah signing, horrible. Rambis, horrible. Team management has been miserable according to all reports. If you’re alienating your players you’re doing something wrong. The one year rentals weren’t the end of the world but with no team options they failed to enable us to potentially capitalize on any effective players.

    It’s not that a ‘hybrid’ approach is a bad thing in a vacuum, it’s that Phil has done such a bad job of it. He’s undervalued assets we have, over-valued cap space that he then blows on bad signings, and constantly mis-judged our talent level/ability to compete in the near-term. He lacks patience, wants to win now above almost everything else and that is at odds with even a hybrid rebuild because he’s really only thinking about how to win next season, not what best positions us to compete a couple years in the future.

    Remember, KP is a malcontent cause he skipped his exit meeting. Rose skipped an actual fucking game but he had an awesome exit meeting so he needs to be brought back.

    Back to the post-up stuff, Kristaps is good at shooting 3’s. Figure out a way to get him more open 3’s.
    Work with what he’s good at, don’t have him trying to post up people. Dirk never really developed post moves-he developed a way to shoot over smaller guys, but it’s not like he was backing people under the rim.

    Remember, KP is a malcontent cause he skipped his exit meeting. Rose skipped an actual fucking game but he had an awesome exit meeting so he needs to be brought back.

    It’s a major inconsistency.

    I’ve offered the theory (based on zero information) that Rose’s AWOL may have been a mental health issue and not insubordination. If that speculation is correct, it would explain the double standard and why we never really found out what was going on.

    Dirk learned how to shoot over little guys when teams switched, but it took him some time. KP has to figure that out as well and when he does it’ll open up a ton for him offensively and, like Dallas has had with Dirk, it’ll allow us to get away with not so dynamic PGs because of how much gravity KP will have at that point.

    If it was a true mental health issue, he probably shouldn’t have been on the floor the very next game.

    Besides all that, the fact is Phil keeps preaching system basketball and players who fit into that. If that’s the case why the fuck would you want Rose back?? He’s more of a ball-stopper than Melo. Rose as a PG is awful.

    If Phil resigns Rose, I think I’ll be physically sick.

    Why? Does Melo really hate Rose so much that Phil would bring him back just to try to force Melo out. Does Phil think that he can turn around and trade Rose near the deadline for something?

    Please no. If Rubio can’t be reasonably had, then get Beverley. Houston is looking to clear salary to sign a big name PG.

    @53 and @55

    I don’t want Rose back, but I don’t see this as a mystery/inconsistency at all. Rose was fined and publicly apologized. KP has basically doubled down on his “mistake” by avoiding, even rejecting, further contact or reconciliation.

    Rose is an elite tankballer though. His shitty defensive play alone generates many ping pong balls.

    Patrick Beverley and Courtney Lee would mean Melo comes back and that we run the triangle full time. Quite frankly, that’s a great starting 5 and allows for Ntilikina to take the starting point guard spot when he can buy a beer legally. And we’d have 3 guards who can play defense finally. Beverley, Lee, and Ntilikina I bet would cut KP’s foul rate down to 2 per 36.

    I like the idea of Beverly, but we won’t have enough scoring unless Melo comes back. It sounded from the Rosen article that getting Melo out of town was the #1 priority. In fact, that’s the exact scenario I brought up a few weeks ago when I was saying I was afraid of Rose coming back. If Melo is traded and Rose is gone, we need both a scorer and a PG. Rose satisfies both. That’s not saying I like the idea, but that’s probably the thinking. The scariest part of it was Rosen suggesting giving him 2 years. 2 years with a team option for the second year is tolerable. We aren’t going anywhere next year and we may not have any good options for a starting PG anyway. But to tie up 2 years on Rose would be a major debacle.

    I’m beginning to believe Rosen really is out of his mind due to this passage in that article:

    What has to be accomplished for this scenario to happen?

    Rose has to adjust his game to the necessities of the triangle. That means no more gratuitous adventures to the hoop, as well as better and quicker decisions with the ball (which includes taking more judicious shots). Throughout his career, Rose has been susceptible to over-penetrating and trying to force passes through heavy traffic while being airborne.

    On the defensive end, Rose’s decision-making has been even more disastrous. How many games did the Knicks lose in the closing seconds last season when Rose was AWOL as his men made uncontested shots?

    It is now the offseason and Rose showed no desire to adapt his game for a version more suitable to the triangle when last we saw him. That alone should make it a solid no on bringing Rose back, considering he still needs to learn how to play that way. Instead of wasting people’s time and money carrying out Phil’s propaganda, he should be using his platforms to convince him to go hard after Livingston. If there’s a FA PG more suited to show Ntilikina the ropes for a year or 2, it’s Livingston. If we were running Hornacek’s brand of offense, then I’d be ok with considering Rose. Let him go to a team that can use what he offers. Let the Clips sign him

    I could tell from Phil’s comments that he thought Rose was playing a lot better in the second half and he liked the exist meeting a lot.

    The thing you stat-geeks don’t get is that some things don’t show up in the box score. Like exit interviewing. There’s no metric that can properly show one’s ability to thank their boss for the privilege of working for them. We can only rely on the ear-test.

    Exit interviews win basketball games.

    Don’t you nerds forget it.

    @64 Totes

    After spending the entire week defending Phil and Rosen I have to agree with you. I more or less saw this coming, but I agree it would be a mistake to bring Rose back and makes no sense other than the rationale in my prior post. The problem is getting someone like Livingston to come here.

    From Hoops Rumors

    “The Timberwolves were clearly the draft day winners with the acquisition of Jimmy Butler. With Butler in the fold, is Minnesota a legitimate free agent destination? If so, what are some potential free agent targets to complement the trio of Butler, Karl-Anthony Towns and Andrew Wiggins? — Matt Trapp”

    “The Wolves plan to pursue point guards, with Kyle Lowry as the top choice, followed by Jrue Holiday, Jeff Teague and George Hill. Lowry will demand a maximum deal for sure, and the others will be at least close. Minnesota needs to shed roughly $10MM in salary to be able to afford that, and the obvious candidate is Ricky Rubio, who will make $14.25MM next season. If they can’t find a taker for Rubio and don’t want to part with Gorgui Dieng, the Wolves will have to find someone willing to deal for Cole Aldrich ($7.3MM) and Jordan Hill (a little more than $4M).”

    I’m not sure how we could create a trade that gets us Rubio and gives the T-Wolves space, but we should be thinking about it. We could always just take him into our cap space, but they are at least going to want some kind of pick back???

    The problem is getting someone like Livingston to come here.

    The hope is the Dubs prioritize keeping Iggy and developing McCaw and Livingston becomes too pricey for his role. I would have no issue with Phil overpaying to get Livingston on a 2-4 year deal

    KP has basically doubled down on his “mistake” by avoiding, even rejecting, further contact or reconciliation.

    Based on what both camps are saying, it could easily be the other way around with the Knicks making no effort aside from Longstaff talking to him before he got fired.

    Not for nothing but Livingston isn’t very good. He’s a nice bench player but that’s pretty much it. Better than Rose though.

    These two things don’t go together:

    We need to prioritize team play and defense

    We’re interested in bringing back Derrick Rose

    Not for nothing but Livingston isn’t very good. He’s a nice bench player but that’s pretty much it. Better than Rose though.

    Not sure if he’s that much better than Rose at this point in his career.

    He won’t go AOWL I guess.

    “The Wolves plan to pursue point guards, with Kyle Lowry as the top choice, followed by Jrue Holiday, Jeff Teague and George Hill. Lowry will demand a maximum deal for sure, and the others will be at least close. Minnesota needs to shed roughly $10MM in salary to be able to afford that, and the obvious candidate is Ricky Rubio, who will make $14.25MM next season. If they can’t find a taker for Rubio and don’t want to part with Gorgui Dieng, the Wolves will have to find someone willing to deal for Cole Aldrich ($7.3MM) and Jordan Hill (a little more than $4M).”

    I’m not sure how we could create a trade that gets us Rubio and gives the T-Wolves space, but we should be thinking about it. We could always just take him into our cap space, but they are at least going to want some kind of pick back???

    First of all , Jordan’s Hill 4m isn’t guaranteed. But we could give them KOQ for Rubio which would not just free up the cap space for them but also give them a quality starter/rotation player in KOQ. If we agreed to take Cole, that would even make it that much more attractive to Minnesota. We could even throw in Kuz who apparently they liked at the last trade deadline. The real question for us is do we want to give up KOQ. Maybe it would be better to keep KOQ and try to sign Teague. Yet another possibility is to take Rubio/Cole/Bjelica and give them Lee.

    With Butler and Wiggins and Towns I’d think the Wolves would go after someone like George Hill short term (I’d just keep Rubio if I were them, but whatever). There’s only one basketball.

    Rumor of a 3 way trade on Twitter where Cleveland gets George and possibly Faried, Nuggets get Love and have no idea who Pacers get.

    I’d give up KOQ, Kuz, and anyone not named Kristaps or Willy, and take back any other salaries to match if we could get Rubio without giving up a draft pick. KP and Frank would both benefit enormously from playing with that guy.

    Based on what both camps are saying, it could easily be the other way around with the Knicks making no effort aside from Longstaff talking to him before he got fired.

    I thought Hornacek said something about texting him also. Either way it’s grown men behaving stupidly on both sides.

    I know Cleveland needs to do something, but replacing Love with George maybe gets them one more game against Golden State.

    How did that Rose experiment work out?

    Well, he didn’t adapt his game well to the triangle, he played terrible defense, and then he got hurt.

    So 20 million for 2 years?

    Actually we were thinking 24

    ??????

    It’d be beautiful offensively and a mess in defense. Even though Love has gotten better on that end.

    Rumor of a 3 way trade on Twitter where Cleveland gets George and possibly Faried, Nuggets get Love and have no idea who Pacers get.

    I saw rumour of a 5 team trade that would have seen Melo and PG go to the Cavs. No other specifics were mentioned (so you can probably take it with a grain of salt), but the hurdle was apparently no one wanted to take on Love’s contract.

    The rumor I read came from Marc Stein and another ESPN writer so it should have some merit.

    The proposed trades for Rubio give too much away. A second round pick and Kuz should be plenty. There’s just too many point guards on the market and not much demand for Rubio. But I dont think Minnesota does that trade unless they get one of the point guards they are target ing in free agency, so I am not holding my breath.

    KOQ has very little value to us unless you think we’re contending for a ring next year. He has one year left on his deal at $4M then a player option. He’s a nice player and a decent bench piece but we should get something for him rather than have him play one more year here then bail. He has much more value to a good team than he does to us. We’re gonna suck next year with or without KOQ.

    If you are suggesting trading KOQ and nothing else for Rubio, I think it’s a fair trade. I’d be ok with it.

    If you are suggesting trading KOQ and nothing else for Rubio, I think it’s a fair trade. I’d be ok with it.

    Yes that works because we have cap space. KOQ is better than all of their PFs/C’s except KAT so it would be a nice cost effective pick-up for Wolves which improves their team and frees up cap space to sign Lowry/Holiday/Hill/Teague. We might have to throw in Kuz since Wolves need some outside shooting. Question is could another team offer them a comparable or better deal? Maybe. Spurs might offer them Kyle Anderson just to give one example.

    KOQ has very little value to us unless you think we’re contending for a ring next year. He has one year left on his deal at $4M then a player option. He’s a nice player and a decent bench piece but we should get something for him rather than have him play one more year here then bail. He has much more value to a good team than he does to us. We’re gonna suck next year with or without KOQ.

    After losing weight, KOQ put up WS/48 of .151 and a BPM of 3.5; that’s nothing to sneeze at. It also appears there’s great camaraderie between him and his teammates. Should we really be in such a hurry to trade him when there might be a buyer’s market for 1 guards this summer? If we could sign Teague or Mills, maybe we should hold on to KOQ and re-sign him if he puts up comparable stats this season instead of trading him for Rubio. I don’t have a strong opinion one way or the other on this except that the priority should be to obtain one of Rubio, Teague, or Mills.

    The rumor I read came from Marc Stein and another ESPN writer so it should have some merit.

    Of everything floating around on twitter that seems to have the most traction at the moment, so it’s probably more credible than the 5 team monster trade.

    There’s really no excuse for it if Phil brings back Rose. We all just spent a season watching the guy die on every screen and generally give zero shits on defense while heroballing it up on offense until his season mercifully ended with like his seventeenth knee surgery. I know Phil sucks as a GM, but there’s no way he can suck THIS bad, right?

    They say Melo to cavs because of buyout from the Knicks. Come on Melo we gave you a mega contract and we gave all our assets to trade for,you. If you will leave the Knicks please give us some value in return.

    If we buy him out, we don’t even get cap space back. I am not in favor of this.

    If you buy him out you’re on the hook for both remaining years of his contract– you automatically owe him for the option year. That is a non-starter, the Knicks should not even be considering this.

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