Knicks Morning News (2017.06.24)

  • [NYDN] Nigel Hayes, who called NYC dirty, has Knicks summer league deal
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 10:06:55 PM)

    Nigel Hayes, the Wisconsin product who trashed New York as “dirty” during the NCAA tournament, will play with the Knicks in summer league.

  • [NYDN] Knicks sign Canyon Barry, Rick Barry’s son, to Summer League deal
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 10:05:27 PM)

    There’s finally an opportunity for a Barry to play for the Knicks.

  • [NYDN] Charles Oakley thinks Porzingis was wrong to skip exit meeting
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 10:04:54 PM)

    Knicks legend Charles Oakley was always one to speak his mind.

  • [NYDN] Marcus Camby, former Knicks star, sued over nephew’s drowning
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 12:14:11 PM)

    Camby has been named defendant in a wrongful death lawsuit over the drowning of his 9-year-old autistic nephew.

  • [SNY Knicks] Oakley talks Big3 and Knicks
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 10:30:13 PM)

  • [SNY Knicks] JRSportBrief: Picking Frank Ntilikina
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 12:45:06 PM)

    In the latest installment of JRSportBrief on SNY.tv, JR discusses the Knicks’ selection of French point guard Frank Ntilikina.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks sign undrafted prospect Nigel Hayes
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 12:20:38 PM)

    The 22-year-old Hayes, who averaged 14.0 points, 6.7 rebounds, and 2.7 assists during his senior year at Wisconsin, will play for the Knicks’ summer league team.

  • [SNY Knicks] Malik Monk surprised Knicks passed on him in Draft
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 10:40:57 AM)

    Former Kentucky SG Malik Monk is surprised the Knicks passed on him with the eighth overall pick in Thursday night’s NBA Draft.

  • [SNY Knicks] No. 44 selection Dotson ready to do whatever it takes for Knicks
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 8:00:43 AM)

    The Knicks selected former Oregon and Houston guard Damyean Datson with the 44th overall pick in the NBA Draft.

  • [SNY Knicks] New York Sports Today: Knicks make draft selections
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 9:58:51 AM)

  • [ESPN] Sources: Knicks offered Joakim Noah in Kristaps Porzingis trade talks
    (Saturday, June 24, 2017 2:07:08 AM)

    Sources: Knicks offered Joakim Noah in Kristaps Porzingis trade talks

  • [ESPN] Superfan McEnroe: Knicks ‘a total train wreck’
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 9:05:27 PM)

    Superfan McEnroe: Knicks ‘a total train wreck’

  • [ESPN] Ex-player Camby sued over nephew’s drowning
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 9:04:23 PM)

    Ex-player Camby sued over nephew’s drowning

  • [NYTimes] On Pro Basketball: N.B.A. Drafts Come and Go, but Carmelo Anthony Always Remains
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 6:19:20 PM)

    Even the Kings were able to reset their franchise this year — not so the Knicks, still shackled by Anthony’s no-trade clause.

  • [NYTimes] Knicks Sign Canyon Barry, a Student of Triangles
    (Saturday, June 24, 2017 12:29:22 AM)

    Barry, a physics major at Florida and the son of the Hall of Famer Rick Barry, will join the Knicks’ summer league team.

  • [NYTimes] N.B.A. Draft: Analysis of Every Pick and Trade in Round 1
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 12:43:08 PM)

    The 76ers selected Markelle Fultz with the first pick in the draft. Lonzo Ball went No. 2 to the Lakers. Here’s a look at the picks and trades in the first round.

  • [NYTimes] Bow Ties and Statement Sneakers at the N.B.A. Draft
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 12:26:37 PM)

    It was a life-changing night for young basketball players, for whom dressing well has become a condition of stardom.

  • [NYTimes] On Pro Basketball: Lakers Have a Plan While the Knicks Hold Triangle Tryouts
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 10:23:36 PM)

    While the pieces seem to be falling into place in Los Angeles, turmoil surrounds the directionless Knicks and their president, Phil Jackson.

  • [NYPost] Frank Ntilikina’s travel heroics not enough as French team loses title
    (Saturday, June 24, 2017 12:14:52 AM)

    It’s on to the triangle for Frank Ntilikina. A jet-lagged Ntilikina and Strasbourg fell short of a French League championship Friday, losing on the road at Chalon in the decisive Game 5 of the finals, 74-65. Less than 24 hours after being drafted with the No. 8 pick by the Knicks, Ntilikina played 24 minutes,…

  • [NYPost] The driving forces behind ‘Don’t Trade Porzingis’ billboard
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 11:19:25 PM)

    Knicks president Phil Jackson had until Friday at midnight to get the yellow neon message ingrained into his head this summer as he attempts to mend fences — or not — with disgruntled Kristaps Porzingis. The digital billboard on the corner of 33rd Street and 7th Avenue Thursday pleaded with the Knicks to keep Porzingis…

  • [NYPost] Kristaps Porzingis still a Knick but no one knows for how long
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 9:11:01 PM)

    Knicks president Phil Jackson’s intention for now is make amends with 7-foot-3 Latvian phenom Kristaps Porzingis and not look to trade him. But if things don’t go smoothly in the next several months, Jackson may entertain trade offers again, knowing Porzingis will be entering the final year of his contract after next season. According to…

  • [NYPost] Lamar Odom fires back at Stephen A. for ‘crack’ comment
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 4:48:56 PM)

    Stephen A. Smith is used to the backlash over his unfiltered hot takes. But it’s not every day he gets feedback in written form. Retired NBA forward Lamar Odom tweeted a letter his lawyer, Saam Zangeneh,

  • [NYPost] Ex-Knick Marcus Camby sued over autistic nephew’s drowning
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 2:42:20 PM)

    HOUSTON — Former NBA player Marcus Camby has been named defendant in a wrongful death lawsuit over the drowning of his 9-year-old autistic nephew in a pond on Camby’s Houston-area property last Thanksgiving. The federal lawsuit, filed Thursday by the boy’s father, Marcus Kendall McGhee, alleges that Camby was aware of the limitations of his…

  • [NYPost] Knicks take chance on rookie who once hated New York
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 7:30:45 AM)

    The only thing Knicks fans care about now with Wisconsin senior power forward Nigel Hayes is he’s “big and dirty” under the boards. An NBA source confirmed Hayes has signed with the Knicks’ summer-league team after going undrafted. Hayes will get a partial guarantee for training camp. He’s a 6-foot-8 power forward with a 7-foot-3…

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ youth group leaves little room for Carmelo Anthony
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 7:59:54 PM)

    The Knicks are all-in on Euros and a youth movement, which continues to paint Carmelo Anthony as the old man out.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks Insider podcast: Kristaps Porzingis stays put after all
    (Friday, June 23, 2017 1:37:02 PM)

    After much speculation, the Knicks wound up not trading Kristaps Porzingis on Thursday, the night of the NBA Draft.

  • 121 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.06.24)”

    So happy that last thread is over, so we can go back and start talking about our dumpster fire of a franchise on the court.

    Here’s a ridiculous line from Berman’s VERY team-friendly article:

    The worry is this: Porzingis blowing off his exit meeting, then publicizing it to the media 2 ½ months before free agency as a protest to the Knicks’ chaos, could lead to future acts of rebellion that would hurt the franchise’s image to other players

    I mean — assuming this is Berman accurately portraying Phil’s mindset — this is as oblivious a line as I’ve ever seen. It’s as if Phil doesn’t acknowledge his own part in creating the “Knicks’ chaos”.

    How about this — don’t force a coach that everyone hates onto players. Don’t constantly criticize your own players, drive down their trade value, then try and trade them publicly but not really seriously. Most of all – do your freaking job well, as opposed to horribly. Be accountable. Explain your thought process so that your own players and coach not to mention the fans at least understand what you’re trying to do. Knicks fans are smart and are willing to be patient if there is a greater plan in place. There wasn’t a peep from Knicks fans when Donnie Walsh blew up the team in order to have a chance at Lebron and co., but that’s because we all knew what the plan was. It didn’t work, but at least it was a rational plan.

    There literally isn’t a single player on the Knicks that has done his job worse than Phil has. This idea of trading Porzingis to prevent his unhappiness from affecting possible future Knicks is literally burning down the house because your faucet is broken and you don’t know how to fix it. The only freaking reason anyone would want to be on this team is to play with Porzingis.

    by the way if anyone hasn’t, read the Oakley article linked to above. that is a great article with amazing quotes from Oak as well as Kenyon Martin. Both of them are 100% on the mark.

    I really do wish we would hire Oakley as an assistant coach. There’s zero chance of that happening but it would be great.

    My favorite lines from Oak:

    “(Porzingis) should tell (Jackson) himself. That’s why you got a mouth,” Oakley said. “All they can do is trade you or keep you. But you got to realize that you have an opinion too. You can’t worry about what they will do. But all you can do is tell them to respect you. When they disrespect you, you have a right to say something to them. If you disrespect them, they have a right to say something to you. You can’t be sensitive. It’s a two-way street.”

    “My thing is the guys should want to do something different. Learn the triangle. Learn the triangle and if doesn’t work, the coach gets fired or the president and the GM gets fired. Just try.

    From Kenyon Martin:

    “It starts up top. It’s been that way for a long time. It’s what it is. The proof is the pudding,” Martin told the News. “It starts with ownership and then management. Ownership picks the management and management picks the players. So when ownership picks a f—ked up management, the management picks f—cked up players. It’s just the way it is.”

    The one thing about the Porzingis-Phil mess is that there may have been interactions behind the scenes that we don’t know about. For all we know Porzingis had been in Phil’s ear prior to the exit meeting and was blown off, and so that’s why he didn’t bother showing for the formal meeting.

    Will be interesting to see what he has to say tomorrow morning on E:60, which by the way I think is pretty bush league to have a bit on ESPN about why you’re unhappy rather than just talking to your team. Hopefully he reaches out to someone on the Knicks to give them a heads up before the show airs.

    So who is in the fold as of today?
    Melo, KP, Lee, Noah, O’Q, Lance, Willy, Kuz, Ndour, Plumlee, Randle, Ntilikina, Dotson, Jaramaz. Kornet, Hayes…
    Then Baker? That would make 17.
    That is one fugly roster. Would Melo really stick around for that?
    Let’s see:
    Starters: KP, Melo, Lee, Willy or Noah, Randle
    Bench rotation: Frank, Lance, O’Q, Kuz, Ndour
    Scrubs: Baker, Plumlee, Dotson
    D-league: Korner, Hayes
    Eurostash: Jaramaz

    That’s looking like a 25-win team, unless:
    KP makes the quantum leap
    Willy plays solid D and continues to develop on O
    Frank can be a net plus in 20mpg
    Noah can play a reasonably healthy 20mpg
    Kuz and Ndour get stronger, smarter and mor consistent
    One of the young’uns surprises: Dotson becomes an angry and efficient 3 and D 2-guard, Hayes becomes Oakley II, Jaramaz goes all Goran Dragic on the NBA.

    And of course, there’s Melo. I hope that either we trade him, or that he buys in to being a mentor/facilitator for a young team as he waits for a trade/buyout. I really would hate buying him out but I guess that after the trade deadline, it would be less objectionable. I’d rather keep him on the roster until the 2018-19 trade deadline, since I think he still will have some trade value. Why give anyone a chance to sign him on the cheap?

    But yeah, 25 wins seems likely. One thing I will say is that other than Melo and Willy, we are a long, lanky, athletic team. If they can go young and ramp up the pressure on D, they should be fun to watch.

    @Frank

    Phil has messed up many things, but KP and his camp have handled things poorly this summer. Let’s just say 100% all the perceived chaos within the team is on Phil, but if you skip the exit meeting and then ignore messages from the team president and head coach even after Phil has met with Janis personally, don’t talk to me about a lack of communication from the organization. If Janis wants to be a professional agent, freaking out and throwing shots at the organization literally minutes after your client’s name comes up in trade rumors is a big no no.

    And let’s talk about these rumors because personally I think Woj was grinding an axe and reporting this is in the most unfavorable way to the Knicks acting as if Phil was going around, hat in hand, to every team in the league desperately hoping to trade KP. The reality is Phil put an astronomical price on the board for KP which was never met and other teams are going to ask you about a super talented kid who has leaked his dissatisfaction with the organization through anonymous quotes in pieces from Begley and Woj.

    Multiple sources came out at the time and debunked any notion that the Knicks were serious about or ever close to a deal, with Woj the one guy banging that drum all day and night leading up to the draft. Ainge himself said that the call was brief and there was never any serious discussion had, which flies in the face of everything Woj reported.

    @Z-Man

    25 wins while playing young guys and just committing to what we’re doing off the bat sounds much better than what happened last season. That’s basically the season Minnesota just had last year, but hopefully we’d do that and end up with a better pick.

    Yeah, lavor, I’m not complaining, just trying to size things up with what we know right now.

    But yes, we are long and lanky. KP, Ndour/Hayes, Lance, Frank and Kuz is a long lineup. I think Hayes has a chance to hang around as a UFA, he was very productive as a complementary player but suffered as a #1 option. I’m also looking forward to seeing the Serbian kid in Orlando, he seems uber-competitive and athletic.

    Two thoughts for me today.

    1) do people think the KP trade stuff is over? There’s nothing about the draft that prevents it being revisited. Eg pheonix can still come back with Jackson + as an offer. I really hope it’s over but I do worry about the lasting impact on the relationship.

    2) I’m wondering if the Bulls’ self-immolation helps with Melo. Cabs apparently couldn’t get teams to bite on Love for a frontline star. If Bulls buy out wade and he goes to Cleveland, does it convince them to go Love for Melo, especially if Billups is making the call? If we can flip Melo for love and then love for more timeline-appropriate pieces that still feels like the best bet for a good return. To Phoenix, or maybe the Jazz for Mitchell and Favours?

    One guy I will definitely be keeping an eye on during summer league is Canyon Barry. Like I said, I’m not the biggest fan of his- but he fills a need as good as if not better than Dotson. We’ll see how he plays. He got pedigree courtesy of his bloodline, and his measurables are REALLY good. 38.5″ vertical and a 6’10” wingspan on a 6’6″ 215 lb frame. If he doesn’t have great lateral quickness, that wingspan will help him compensate until he improves it.
    As far as Nigel Hayes is concerned, I think hoping for him to become an Oakley lite isn’t reasonable- that’s just not his game. But you know who he plays like, and he has the measurables to help him reach the level I’m thinkin of? Draymond Green. He reminds me a little of him with better size. He’s a legit 6’7″ without shoes- 2 inches taller than Chubbs. Maybe not as good a shooter yet though. And if Kornet is a legit 250, he is VERY intriguing. Considering the UDFA’s, I would hafta move my draft grade for Phil from a C+ to at least a solid B. When does summer league start?

    @Z-Man

    I’m with you. Funny enough if Melo sticks around and we sign a decent stop gap vet PG like Collison, I would bet on the team being better if only because we’d have more guys willing and able to give a fuck on both end of the floor for 48 minutes every night.

    I know Dotson had a very serious off court issue and I don’t want to brush it under the rug. I’m sure it will and needs to be talked about, but what he brings on the court are 2 things the Knicks sucked at last year – accurate 3 point shooting and plus defensive rebounding. He finished in the 96th percentile on catch-and-shoot and averaged 1.24 PPP on Off Screen shots, which, to put in some context, was better than Durant and Curry. He won’t be as efficient a scorer or shooter at the NBA level, but he has a good chance to become a solid 3-and-D player.

    Literally overnight, the Knicks now have 10 players under 25 YO, 4 between 25-29 YO, and 3 that are over 30 YO. And who knows what happens to or with Melo, Lee and Noah.

    That’s a youth movement folks.

    Man, I watched about half of that Strasbourg/ Bemax game from January, and I can’t say I’m overly hopeful about Frank. His defense looked great: not only his on the ball D, but his ability to switch and get over screens looked really smooth… sort of hard to fathom actually. But offensively, it was a very different story.

    He looks slow end to end, and his handle isn’t bad, but it leaves a lot to be desired. He can’t seem to get quicker defenders out of his grill (Jaramaz is indeed pesky but not all-world or anything) and that leads to dribble fumbles and bad passes. His outside shot and pull-up both look pretty wet, but as he’s a pg, I didn’t see much off-ball movement (like you might with Monk).

    He looked a lot more like a 3 and D guy w some handles – like a skinny Iguodala – which, to be fair, isn’t a bad place to be at 18 going against older top euro guys, but as a pg he’s definitely a project.

    I can even see him playing in the G league if Dotson fills our 3 and D needs well enough.

    I bet they’re printing out the D. Rose contracts as we speak.

    Multiple sources came out at the time and debunked any notion that the Knicks were serious about or ever close to a deal, with Woj the one guy banging that drum all day and night leading up to the draft. Ainge himself said that the call was brief and there was never any serious discussion had, which flies in the face of everything Woj reported.

    So I was right? All of that shit was rumor fueled bullshit? No….

    A few weeks ago I warned that Rose coming back was a legitimate risk. Now that we’ve drafted Frank I think the risk is even higher. IMO, Frank is definitely not going to be ready to start at PG. I watched some of the game yesterday. I came away feeling fine about him, but he’s way too raw and doesn’t have real PG skills. We NEED a starting PG. So unless we pull off a trade for Rubio or find another stop gap, Rose could easily be that stop gap.

    Multiple sources came out at the time and debunked any notion that the Knicks were serious about or ever close to a deal, with Woj the one guy banging that drum all day and night leading up to the draft.

    I don’t think any outsider can know this without reasonable confidence. Both Yahoo and an Arizona radio reporter claimed that the Knicks offered KP for Booker and the #4 and Phoenix demurred. We don’t know that’s accurate, but we don’t know it isn’t. Phil may have been very serious, because if true that would in fact be a serious offer that some GMs would accept. Also, one good rule of offseason basketball is to never believe what Danny Ainge says about his trade talks at any time.

    It’s not a crime to have trade talks about anyone, even serious ones. Most fans would agree that there were potential trades for KP that would have be worth it, though about a thousand more that wouldn’t. But there is no way we have enough information to conclude that Phil wasn’t serious.

    So I was right? All of that shit was rumor fueled bullshit? No….

    I was saying the same thing in a few places.

    Here’s the problem as I see it.

    1. Most of the Knicks beat writers hate Dolan and the Knicks.

    2. Most of the national basketball media hates Dolan and the Knicks.

    3. A variety of people and interests hate Phil Jackson and are trying to force him out.

    Trashing the Knicks and hyping up non events generates a lot of national interest in articles, blogs, shows etc.. . and helps meet the goal of hurting the Knicks and forcing Phil out.

    We’d all be way better off if we put all of them on ignore except perhaps Charlie Rosen, Phil himself, and Romona Shelburne (who seems to be plugged in a bit and legit).

    Phil will tell us what he’s thinking. We may not agree with it, but at least it will be his actual thoughts. It will not not be spin, lies and the fake news we get from the trash media. If anything, he’s too truthful and that has hurt him.

    Charlie Rosen will tell us his actual opinions of players and his reading on Phil as his friend. I have seen no evidence to suggest otherwise. He tells us the good and bad in a balanced way even when the bad might hurt the organization.

    Romona Shelburne is just good at her job and has given me no reason to date to not trust what she’s saying.

    Most of the rest are utterly worthless.

    Baker or Randle should start at pg, or we should try to trade for a young guy who is currently a backup. Or just start Frank and let him learn. Rose for a year just accidentally wins us a few with no discernible strategic upside as we all know he is not the long term solution

    We should just offer the Holiday brothers both starting spots and a wheelbarrow full of money and call it a day.

    I can’t wait until Frank is 23 and unbelievably good at basketball. Remember that Russell Westbrook played shooting guard for UCLA because they had Darren Collison. I’m not saying Frank is the next Westbrook, but dammit Frank Ntilikina is a 6’5″ point guard with a 7′ wingspan. I’m so excited for what this kid becomes. His mind is currently ahead of where his body is offensively, and he plays the game with some style. Defensively he will ruin games with KP. I’ve seen Frank’s length and positioning make entry passes difficult. I rarely see Frank go under screens. Frank plays clutch defense, and has the unbelievable length to contain top flight ball handlers. The only time ball handlers get passed him is when he loses his discipline and goes for the steal. Otherwise, he’s stuck to these guys (who have back up PG level speed, they just make terrible decisions).

    I expect him to show us in summer league and preseason that he deserves to start. He will be the youngest player in the NBA but give him time. Let him make all of his mistakes this year so we can tank for Luka Doncic.

    We don’t have enough cap space to fit a max contract for a starting PG.

    The Holiday brothers are out unless we figure out how to unload some money without giving anything up .

    This is a case where the Rose trade followed by the Noah signing is hurting. The Rose trade itself did not hurt. Rose is off the cap and we can use that same money to replace Lopez/Grant with other players (or keep Holiday and add other players) this year. That’s a non even as long as the signings are of equal quality in terms of player ability and salaries.

    However, it was the Rose trade that lead to the Noah signing. We needed a replacement C and Phil thought we were getting an upgrade. Instead we got a chronically injured Noah battling hamstring, knee, and other issues that prevented him from even getting n top shape. Now we have less space, a major “?” in terms of what we are going to get from Noah going forward, and a surplus of big men because both KOQ and Hernagomez were better than expected last year. This was his one major blunder.

    I expect him to show us in summer league and preseason that he deserves to start.

    I don’t disagree with anything you are saying long term. I can’t. But if Frank is our starting PG next year and we are expecting him to break down defenses and create for others, pencil us in for another very good lottery pick next year. He is NOT a PG now. Right now he should be playing SG mostly off the ball and benefiting from an actual PG creating some open shots for him on the perimeter. His value will be on D next year.

    The Holiday brothers are out unless we figure out how to unload some money without giving anything up

    Stretching Melo = addition by subtraction?

    I don’t really think the Knicks need too much guard penetration with a Year 3 KP and Melo in the fold. They need a guy who can pass the ball, get the offense going, and hit open jumpers out of the PG spot. If Ron Baker can do it, I think Frank can do it.

    They’ll probably just get a Ramon Sessions type in the end. That would be better than more of the Rose drama.

    @2 — that Oakley quote is pitch-perfect. Miss him. I hope KP reads it.

    @9 — yes. very happy about the youth now. Feels like Phil is stacking the deck with willing Triangle devotees and daring Melo to be the odd man out. What KP does will be key.

    And as for Triangle devotees, the Times piece on Canyon Barry sounds amazing. But has anyone actually seen the guy play?

    Thanks — looks good, if shorter than his listed height.

    Triangle or not, Barry seems likely to play “the coach’s way.” The more of those we have, the better imho.

    You know DeAndre Jordan is actually a free agent after this season. Is there a mega trade that can happen where DeAndre Jordan and Carmelo Anthony go to Cleveland? I don’t even think the Warriors could beat Kyrie, LeBron, Carmelo Anthony, and DJ. The Clippers can take Tristan Thompson, Kevin Love can go to a 4th team and we can share the Kevin Love spoils with LAC. There would be so many big contracts moving and LAC/CLE have two of the largest payrolls in the NBA, but I think there’s a deal out there that would benefit everyone.

    We’d all be way better off if we put all of them on ignore except perhaps Charlie Rosen, Phil himself, and Romona Shelburne (who seems to be plugged in a bit and legit).

    Ramona Shelburne said all the same things Woj said. To dismiss Woj, who, again, is right about everything, since what he said this time disputed what Phil said is unreasonable.

    Woj never said that Jackson was trying to dump Porzingis, just that the Knicks were actively pursuing Porzingis trades rather than what Phil said, which was that they were merely listening to calls on Porzingis.

    I kind of like the fact that Phil is assembling the type of team a coach would want to coach. Not the highest recruits but a bunch of dudes who will fit into a system.

    I really feel like the Knicks have this drafting thing figured out; take risks at the top of the board (unless there is a can’t miss prospect available) on smart but developing players, and then fill out the rest of the youth movement with older guys who may have slipped through the cracks because they’re old. Canyon Barry played really well for Florida, Dotson was an excellent player at Houston, Kornet looks like an NBA player despite his rebound rate (https://youtu.be/HOrW0MD8NW8), and Nigel Hayes looks decent too. We should have a fun summer league team to watch. It’s looking more and more like if you’re going to be a young Knickerbocker, you’re going to have to be a smart kid.

    Ramona Shelburne said all the same things Woj said. To dismiss Woj, who, again, is right about everything, since what he said this time disputed what Phil said is unreasonable.

    Woj never said that Jackson was trying to dump Porzingis, just that the Knicks were actively pursuing Porzingis trades rather than what Phil said, which was that they were merely listening to calls on Porzingis.

    Woj isn’t right about everything BC. This guy reported 2 months ago that the Kings were desperately in search of somebody to replace Vlade, which the Kings refuted and then Woj doubled down on it. 2 months later Vlade’s still calling the shots, so Woj was 100% wrong on that twice. He also claimed when Melo re-signed his priority was just to get the money and work out a trade later, which is laughable now since Melo seems hell bent on never leaving New York.

    Woj made it sound like the Knicks were locked in non-stop talks all day with Boston and it was bullshit. Shelburne avoids injecting her personal feelings into the news she’s reporting. Woj clearly has major problems doing so and has never proven once since Phil took over to have great sources within the Knicks front office. Shelburne, Beck and Begley (who also was consistent on Thursday that any KP deal was a long shot and not that serioes) are the only 3 people who have proven to have trustworthy Knicks sources of late.

    Magic Johnson on D’Angelo Russell: “We want to thank him for what he did for us. But what I needed was a leader.” Full quote: pic.twitter.com/3FhPthOpN1— Baxter Holmes (@BaxterHolmes) June 23, 2017

    I’m not a Phil supporter but if he had said the exact same thing about Porzingis or Melo the media would be going crazy right know.

    Which starting lineup is better?
    World: Ntilikina,Jaramaz,Kuzminkis,Porzingis,Hernangomez
    US: Randle,Lee,Anthony,Thomas,Noah

    Thanks Reub for posting the link to the Strasbourg – Mega Leks game yesterday. That rookie is something else. He runs the offense, is unselfish, plays relentless defense and dives after loose balls… I’m talking about Jaramaz! I saw him twice hustle after balls destined to go out of bounds and turn them into positive plays. He fights around screens, has a decent 3-point shot and runs sweet pick-and-rolls/pick-and-pops.

    Ntilikina didn’t play all that much but when he did, he was effective and it’s obvious that there’s a lot of talent. He has a great handle and plays very tough defense.

    That’s an unfair comparison because Kristaps Porzingis and Carmelo Anthony are already good basketball players, they’re liked in the locker room, Phil Jackson had a similar quote about Tim Hardaway Jr when he traded him away, and Phil Jackson already has a reputation for slandering his former and current players in the media.

    And to piggy back off of 36. Magic has probably said more in few months than Phil has said publicly in a year. And he’s talking about the PG position

    @11 – I didn’t see your post before I posted mine. Were you as surprised as me how little Ntilikina played?

    I agree with you about Jaramaz (pronounced by the announcer as Yara-mash). I think his future is as a 3-and-D off the bench but he took only a couple of 3’s that I saw and he was sloppy with the ball a few times.

    My favorite lines from Oak:

    “(Porzingis) should tell (Jackson) himself. That’s why you got a mouth,” Oakley said. “All they can do is trade you or keep you. But you got to realize that you have an opinion too. You can’t worry about what they will do. But all you can do is tell them to respect you. When they disrespect you, you have a right to say something to them. If you disrespect them, they have a right to say something to you. You can’t be sensitive. It’s a two-way street.”

    You know there is a reason Oakley doesn’t have a job in an NBA that hires every possible ex player of substance. You can tell you boss to fuck off without being prepared for repercussions.

    The adult thing to do would have been to make his thoughts known to Phil. Period. Everything else is douchebaggery.

    It seems clear that Phil has spoken with Me7o about leaving and Melo isn’t particularly interested, So now Phil is working the metagame to get it done. If that ruffles a snowflake’s feathers, too bad. Let him concentrate on posting a better ws/48 at .100 and melting after 25 games each season. That’s what he should be focused on.

    That’s an unfair comparison because Kristaps Porzingis and Carmelo Anthony are already good basketball players, they’re liked in the locker room, Phil Jackson had a similar quote about Tim Hardaway Jr when he traded him away, and Phil Jackson already has a reputation for slandering his former and current players in the media.

    The difference is that Magic is a friendly dude and Phil is a douche. Double standards.

    Jaramaz looks like a fun player. If he can shoot, who knows, he might be useful

    Jaramaz won DPOY in his league last season at age 20, which is pretty cool for a guard.

    Hopefully he can develop his offense and become a more efficient scorer over the next year or two.

    Melo for Blake?

    Seeing some rumblings about the Knicks stretching Melo. If Melo refuses to go, is that a serious option for Phil? Is that exactly what Melo is hoping for so that he can pick his team to go to?

    We should not stretch Melo. If we do, his player option automatically kicks in. Better to keep him for one more year and hope he opts out next offseason.

    Re: the Berman article

    What’s so difficult about hiring a quiet, competent statistics-minded GM and allowing young talent like KP and Frank help build your culture?? Arghh!!!!

    @48
    I agree. Bench him…let him come off the bench and do the only one thing he wants to do: shoot. I really think that that will tweak his ego far more than Phil making dumb statements to the media about him. Melo would want out either during the year or he’ll opt out after.

    Ignore him and focus on all the young guys. Put out a young, hard-working, hard playing team that is easy to root for. Yup, you lose lots of games but have another lottery pick next year. See if KP really is becoming a diva or not.

    The only public statements that Phil should now make should be about how the team is “rebuilding.” Stop talking about individual players in public. But yeah, he won’t do that.

    @52 — +1+1+1

    Totally agree. Don’t say peep about Melo ever again. Play him off the bench but as a net positive for the rebuilding team. We can run the offense of the future (for good or bad) with the new guys as starters, and Melo will score against easier defenders as the iso 6th man.

    Melo is going to make the business decision to take a trade to Cleveland. Melo has always been about the dollars, and staying in New York will only decrease his free agent value. If he opts out after this season, Phil Jackson will not re-sign a 34 year old Carmelo Anthony. If he stays in New York through 2019, nobody will offer him a big deal at age 35. Cleveland is going to trade TT, an unprotected future pick, and Shumpert for DJ’s expiring contract. Then they will move Kevin Love and whoever else for Melo and Lee.

    DEFINITELY don’t stretch Melo unless he agrees to a buyout that is significantly less than what he is owed (not happening). He’s due $54MM over next 2 seasons — stretched out over 5 you’re talking about 10% of your cap completely dead with his money until the 2022-23 season. And that’s on top of Noah, who is ~17% of the cap over next 3 years.

    My order of preference re: Melo endpoints:

    1) Melo wins the power struggle over Phil and Phil is fired (very little chance of this)
    2) We trade Melo for assets and some bad $, but hopefully not carrying past this season significantly (ie. Jamal Crawford only has a $3MM guarantee for 2018-19)
    3) We don’t trade Melo and he opts out of his player option, becoming a FA after next season
    4) We do a bad trade with Melo, taking on too much $ and not getting sufficient assets
    5) Stretch-waive Melo

    Re: Ntilikina – I think it’s unlikely we see much of his offensive ability in summer league, which is basically free-for-all basketball. I’m interested to see what his shot translates like with the NBA 3 point line, and also to see what he’s able to do on defense against NBA athletes. I think he will acquit himself well, since the dudes in summer league are basically college-age guys for the most part. he should do fine against them given what he’s been up against the last few years. Excited to watch though

    Re: the Rubio quote from Scott Layden – Zach Lowe (and others) have basically said no one believes Layden when he says that because of course he has to say that. Only Phil Jackson destroys his own leverage in trade negotiations.

    Between Minnesota trading Dunn and Layden’s comments, my guess is Ricky Rubio will never be a Knick. Seems like the chance to get him was at the deadline if it ever did actually exist.

    If Cleveland hires Billups then a Melo trade may be inevitable. He’s been on record saying he would trade Melo for Kevin Love.

    Cleveland is going to trade for DeAndre Jordan and then Melo will follow shortly afterwards. There is zero reason for Melo to stay in New York; he gets a raise and a chance to compete for a title on a one year deal. After Cleveland beats Golden State with a Big 4 of LeBron, DJ, Kyrie, and Melo, Melo can then opt out and go to LAL with LeBron.

    LaMarcus Aldridge has scrubbed his profiles of all things Spurs. Time to ship him off to wherever idc..— Matt ???? (@MattInAstoria) June 23, 2017

    Melo isn’t going to LAL:

    Lakers didn't look too closely at ball-stoppers, wanted guys who would keep the flow going, Pelinka said. Lonzo obviously fits that mold.— Mike Bresnahan (@Mike_Bresnahan) June 23, 2017

    Get Rubio or another decent point guard.
    Do Not re-sign Rose.

    I get the idea of tanking to get a higher pick next year, but if the Knicks do not start making progress KP is more and more likely to think about leaving when his contract is up. Why wouldn’t he? Getting Rubio would make the offense run much more efficiently and help KP enormously.

    Whatever happened between LMA and the Spurs? That rift seems more serious than even Phil and Melo.

    Hey, if it’s that bad, maybe Noah for LMA?? (just kidding)

    BTW, can Melo waive the trade kicker if he wants to facilitate a deal? And if so, would he? I really think he’s playing hardball, hoping to get stretched. I hope the Knicks do NOT oblige him.

    I’m sure plenty of teams are lining up to trade for a guy that’s allegedly bitching the best coach of the most well run organization in the league isn’t maximizing his abilities.

    Damn…. #Timberwolves GM Scott Layden said they were excited about PG Ricky Rubio’s 2nd half. “He’s going to have a great career here.”— @kc1nyk (@kylecohenNBA) June 23, 2017

    Rubio’s usage went from 16 to 23 after LaVine’s injury. It will return to 16 again once Butler joins team. Ricky’s skill set makes no sense for that team. If I were Thibs, I’d be focusing on Hayward (max) and Beverley (6m/year) and be prepared to move anyone other than KAT and Butler to shed salary if Hayward is interested. It could be a real dogfight between Boston, Utah, and TWolves for Hayward.

    @67 I remember criticizing the Spurs for signing him b/c he’s overrated, unclutch ball-stopper with a low b-ball IQ relative to the typical Spurs player. I was totally against the Knicks signing him when he was a UFA. I remember going back and forth with Jowles aka #1 Pop/Buford fanbois, and if I recall correctly, he essentially said he was not a fan of LMA but deferred to their judgment.

    I mean’ it wasn’t the dumbest signing in the world for a contender, but it turned out pretty much as I expected.

    Do not sign Rose.

    Do not sign Jrue.

    Trade Melo for a year of Omaha Steaks

    Lose a lot of games.

    Draft well.

    ? ? ?

    Profit!

    Joking aside, I’m down with one more year of tanking (unintentionally, of course) to get one more good draft pick. THEN we build. Plenty of time to get good so KP stays.

    Assuming we follow the plan above, the only real danger is Noah coming back healthy. He can still be a good player – he was last year on bum legs and a broken shoulder.

    @52 +1 on benching Melo and making him a forgotten man. If you want him, we get a potential lottery pick and another 1st round pick. Otherwise he rots. Let everyone in the media moan and groan but be resolute to not cave. Make him beg to go.
    Tank. Tank. Tank. We’re 1 draft away from decency.

    Interesting summer, lotta stars and faux stars in play: Kevin, Hayward, George, Aldridge, Melo, DJ, Griffin, Millsap.

    I’d consider this type of 3-way deal involving Aldridge:
    Knicks…… Bertans/Anderson/whatever Aldridge gets us in a 3 way
    Spurs……. NYK 2018 pick/Lee
    3rd team. Aldridge

    I don’t understand why NBA media ‘analysts’ shit on our offense and Phil’s attempts to find guys who are the best fit to play in it. People really make it out to be something difficult – buts it not. A ‘triangle offense’ is just a simple pass and cut and read and react offense. If you’re a smart, unselfish, skilled player, its actually quite easy to run. Even a JV team can run triangle sets. People also make it out to be outdated but we see hybrid triangles in the 2 best offenses in the NBA (SA/GS).

    @Z-Man

    I remember that. I liked the signing because they needed a big to take over for Duncan and I thought Pop could transition LMA into being a 5, which he did do at times last year. It was worth the shot and Pop’s such a great coach they still won plenty of games, but the fit has always seemed somewhat short of ideal, probably because LMA weirdly has never stretched his range out to beyond the arc consistently for some reason.

    I do think an LMA for Melo trade would be worth it if that’s a move that gets them Paul.

    Ramona Shelburne said all the same things Woj said. To dismiss Woj, who, again, is right about everything, since what he said this time disputed what Phil said is unreasonable.

    Woj never said that Jackson was trying to dump Porzingis, just that the Knicks were actively pursuing Porzingis trades rather than what Phil said, which was that they were merely listening to calls on Porzingis.

    Woj has a huge anti NY Knick bias.

    If you want to know who’s picking who on draft night, he’s fine.

    If you want to know about an imminent deal, he’s fine.

    If you want to know what’s going on with Knicks he’s another dumpster fire.

    When the story first broke via Woj, on Twitter I set the odds of him being traded at 200-1 against and said the media was utterly FOS turning it into a bigger story than it was for their own benefit and because they love trashing NY/Phil so much. The next morning I read one or two things I deemed more credible and changed the odds to 150-1 . So basically I was still saying there’s no chance.

    Woj made it seem like Phil was essentially shopping him, many teams were calling, serious talks were occurring, and he made it the biggest story of the day in his podcasts for two days.

    The reality was Phil took a few calls, most of the NBA (like me) thought Phil wasn’t even serious about trading him because the asking price was ridiculous, and it was more of effort to send a message to KP. Ainge himself said there was never a serious discussion, the call was very quick, and he didn’t think Phil was serious.

    At the height of the frenzy when everyone was having panic attacks, Ramona tweeted this and threw cold water on the speculation.

    >On likelihood of a KP deal, “There’s no way that we’d trade him now unless we got someone we’re even higher on in return.

    “”Knicks source on Phil right now: “he’s dug in. If he doesn’t get exactly what he wants, there will be no Porzingis trade. “<

    5 minutes after that tweet, the panic attacked ended because everyone knew what Phil was asking was ridiculous and could never happen.

    Re: the Rubio quote from Scott Layden – Zach Lowe (and others) have basically said no one believes Layden when he says that because of course he has to say that. Only Phil Jackson destroys his own leverage in trade negotiations.

    I agree with this in terms of Rubio but not in terms of Phil.

    Just as no competent informed person will change their opinion of Rubio because his management is talking him up, no competent informed management is going to change their opinion of KP, Melo, or anyone else because Phil and Rosen express honest opinions.

    Rubio did have a better second half and everyone already knows that.

    Rubio is probably still on the block but it will be a little tougher to get him given that Minny traded Dunn and will need a replacement first.

    I mean, at some point Melo has to realize that he is absolutely squandering whatever tiny little fraction of his prime he still has left, right? Does he really want to spend his age 33 and 34 seasons getting yelled at by Kurt Rambis and winning 30 games? Even if he doesn’t get moved to his ideal destination, he’d still only have to play one season, then he could simply exercise his ETO and sign with whoever.

    It doesn’t make sense for anybody for Melo to be on this team next season.

    I mean, at some point Melo has to realize that he is absolutely squandering whatever tiny little fraction of his prime he still has left, right? Does he really want to spend his age 33 and 34 seasons getting yelled at by Kurt Rambis and winning 30 games? Even if he doesn’t get moved to his ideal destination, he’d still only have to play one season, then he could simply exercise his ETO and sign with whoever.

    LOL. Melo doesn’t give a shit about winning. He just says so to the media because that’s the expectation for a player paid his salary. Anyone who is committed to winning would have left this shit show a long while ago while they could.

    He just says so to the media because that’s the expectation for a player paid his salary. Anyone who is committed to winning would have left this shit show a long while ago while they could.

    I mean, forget about winning. We all know he doesn’t really care much about winning, that’s evident in the way he plays. But this isn’t just a losing team, this is a miserable situation. Why spend two years dealing with Phil and Rambis when you don’t have to? I would imagine that would just be an incredibly long and miserable slog.

    But Melo DOES give a shit about getting paid. Why not take a 15% raise to do less, win 20-30 more games next season, and compete for an NBA Finals in Cleveland? When the Cavaliers trade for DeAndre Jordan Melo will be dying to become a part of that team as their power forward.

    But this isn’t just a losing team, this is a miserable situation. Why spend two years dealing with Phil and Rambis when you don’t have to? I would imagine that would just be an incredibly long and miserable slog.

    He probably wants to stick around his kid and friends. I mean, the dude does have roots in NYC.

    If we hit on Frank (i.e. not star, but championship level starter) we’re in a reasonably good position going forward. It’s really a simple plan, I just don’t trust Phil to execute it:

    Tank this year, grab a top-5 pick. Let Porzingis, Frank, Billy and 2018 pick develop for the duration of the Noah and Lee contracts. Unfortunately we’ll have to re-up with Porzingis by the time Noah and Lee expire, but we could head into the 2020 season with an early-prime Porzingis, Frank, two more lottery picks and cap space for another star–that team could contend and would likely coincide with the end of the LeBron vs. Dubs era.

    @81 and @82 – yes to both of these.

    Melo likely believes he can outlast Jackson, especially by using the leverage of friendship with KP. I honestly believe Melo hopes to move into Knicks front office after retirement. At the very least his desire to have a successftul brand after basketball (which I don’t begrudge the guy) might even make more sense to him as a “loyal” Knick loser than as a one-off winner on a team in Cleveland and/or LA — a team that would always be someone else’s (LeBron or whomever).

    That is also why the narrative is so important to Melo and why “the Triangle problem” lingers in the news and so on despite Philmelo’s accurate comments above that it is not really so different from the top offenses in the NBA.

    Ntilikina, Barry, Dotson, Hayes, and Kornet probably beats UNC this year. I’m excited to see what these guys do in SL.

    You guys are forgetting something about Melo – I’m sure he despises Phil for trashing him in the media, and may be vindictive and short sighted enough to refuse a trade just to make Phil’s life more difficult.

    I hope it’s not true, but honestly it wouldn’t surprise me that much if that was Melo’s motivation (as opposed to, you know, winning games and championships)

    I hope it’s not true, but honestly it wouldn’t surprise me that much if that was Melo’s motivation (as opposed to, you know, winning games and championships)

    His time is running out. And if this is his plan it ignores the fact that Phil can cut him, take the cap hit and deal with whatever the consequences are after the next two seasons.

    Chris Brickley, former Knicks trainer on Ntilikina: "if you ask me, he's the most talented, high IQ, hardest working prospect in the draft"— NYK Insider (@NykInsider) June 24, 2017

    There’s a solid chance that Willy, Kyle and Porzingis combine for 6000 minutes at .150-.200 WP apiece. This could be a sleeper .500 team, especially if Carmelo gets traded and they fix the train wreck at the 1.

    Jesus Christ Jowles put away the homer card!

    Lol just kidding and I think you’re right, but it depends on getting a serviceable lead guard on the team more than anything else as you said.

    @67 I remember criticizing the Spurs for signing him b/c he’s overrated, unclutch ball-stopper with a low b-ball IQ relative to the typical Spurs player. I was totally against the Knicks signing him when he was a UFA. I remember going back and forth with Jowles aka #1 Pop/Buford fanbois, and if I recall correctly, he essentially said he was not a fan of LMA but deferred to their judgment.

    I’d like to see that conversation. I was confused by the signing too, since he always appeared to me as a 6’11” version of Carmelo to me. That said, he’s been a guy playing what, 3,000 minutes a year as a paint defender on what is routinely the league’s best defense (by a country mile). I would say that it’s possible that he’s a moneyballer despite having joined the Spurs as a “franchise” player. It just seems like he balances his middling offense with exceptional team defense.

    On offense Aldridge is pretty similar to Duncan, production wise, but he’s not close to being the defensive player Tim was (and Aldridge is not bad on defense). I can sort of see how the Spurs could have talked themselves into getting him

    What kind of insane asshole would suggest stretching Melo. Next year is for tanking. If Melo is benched all year or just told not to show up to the arena and he opts in for another year then we tank a second year. This is the only logical plan short of trading him. Melo is a malignant cancer. But at least he only takes up cap space for 1-2 more years. Stretching his herpes for longer than that is batshit crazy.

    The only reason to stretch Melo is so that he’s not hanging around and sulking and poisoning the atmosphere. Which is not a very good reason to stretch him.

    If they can’t move him, they should tell him his minutes are based on playing within the team concept, and that if he starts heroballing he’ll find himself on the bench.

    Like cockeyed optimist Cock Jowles mentioned, this team could easily be better than last years, especially if we find a decent vet PG

    I was also confused by the LMA signing. It worked out the way I thought it would.

    LMA is the king of the “just inside the 3 point line” jumper, I think Lance Thomas models his game after him.

    I don’t think LMA is a particularly good defender individually…doesn’t get many defensive rebounds for his size, is not really a rim protector, and gets few steals. He is a beneficiary of the Spurs system and is a good team guy, but just not as good of a player on either end as his salary would suggest. I’d put him at around the same level as Kevin Love…a guy with some real strengths and on paper pretty good all-around, but with subtle deficiencies that get exposed at the wrong times.

    Heck with Ted Nelson vs. Jowles. Check out the brilliant Hernangomez discussion from #67-69 between me and lavor postell. Brilliant!

    Frank seems like a good kid, but let’s be honest: this is just a cherry on top of a mountain of shit. Nothing will change while Dolan is poisoning the water at MSG.

    They’re far from perfect, but I’m going to try and see about the Nets this year. Marks seems like a pro and Atkinson has that team working together. At least Prokhorov has possibly learned from his mistakes. Plus I can go see a game without needing a bank loan.

    Love this blog though, and will continue to lurk.

    ess…I agree that the Knicks still have some sideshow elements, and that Phil has made some bad decisions and seems weird and senile some times, but if you had gone into a coma at the height of the Bargnani fiasco and reawakened today, you’d have some hope that was not there before…all of our draft picks intact, a roster full of young, hungry players and only two bloated vet deals eating up 40% of the cap for the next 2 years, while the Nets are still paying off the idiotic trades they made and watching Philly draft a stud at #1 with their pick, I’d hardly call the Nets a better proposition. Whatever Phil and Dolan’s flaws, if Pop and Buford took over the team tomorrow, they’d have a path to contending in 3-4 years. They’d be handed a much better hand than Donnie Walsh was handed (and proceeded to fuck up,)

    @ClashFan

    Great minds. I have to say he impressed me more than I anticipated this year. He’s an extremely well rounded offensive player and much moreso than Pek. If he can add some range to his J he’s going to be a very tough cover.

    @Z-Man

    Agreed. I think Phil deserved to be fired after this season, but if Frank pans out and he backs haphazardly into another lotto pick next year, he’ll have turned around this franchise in a major way around young talent, albeit in complete ass backwards fashion.

    Whatever his flaws his unwillingness to part with 1st round picks thus far, no matter the circumstance, has been refreshing and left our long term future intact.

    I know just what you mean about keeping the picks. I was thinking to myself, why is Porzingis our latest pick, but has been here two years. Then I realized, duh, we didn’t have a pick last year. Im glad those days are gone.

    Nice archive thread. I even remember where I was when I was typing that stuff.

    (And, in #81, I kind of hate myself for being so right:)

    Actually, I think those who were bent out of shape about the Afflalo and Williams signings were wrong. If anything, as a whole, they played at or slightly above their contracts for a year and opted out. Despite his lousy production, Afflalo opted out and signed for 2 years @$25 million, a 50% raise over what Phil paid him. Predator put up a .120 WS48 @ $5 million. In other words, they played precisely well enough to opt out for the hope of better deals, yet not well enough to miss them. If any other GM did that, it would be considered a stroke of genius. There were better moves to make, so the opportunity cost argument is somewhat valid, but whatever, it wasn’t a big deal in retrospect.

    Let’s also remember that the Team Phil assembled that year was at .500 more than halfway through the season, then Melo stepped on a ref’s foot, they went on a bender and Fisher was replaced by Rambis. But for 45 games, that was a very fun team to watch.

    In other words, they played precisely well enough to opt out for the hope of better deals, yet not well enough to miss them. If any other GM did that, it would be considered a stroke of genius. There were better moves to make, so the opportunity cost argument is somewhat valid, but whatever, it wasn’t a big deal in retrospect.

    Great job contributing to a single 32 win season and then leaving. They were both pointless signings that didn’t do anything.

    Afflalo had a bpm below replacement level and was maybe one of the five worst players in the league the year after, his option year. DW was almost as bad despite his WS/48 because he is a bottom 5 non-guard defender, and Miami in fact waived him despite being riddled with injuries.

    And that was the good case. Two shitty seasons from two shitty players instead of using the cap space to try to secure a future asset like the 76ers did with Sacramento. We wrote two put options and ate an opportunity cost for no possible upside of any merit. We got lucky the options weren’t exercised (well, lucky except we blew the money anyway) and our payoff was still completely worthless to us. That’s the definition of a bad risk reward.

    But at that time, Melo had already been signed. There was no way that Jax was going to use cap space simply to acquire bad contracts and picks. Once you signed Melo, there was no other path other than win-now to at least some degree. So they used a grand total of $13 million in cap space on a couple of fliers. Considering the circumstances, it was no harm, no foul.

    And let’s not cherry-pick stats, ptmilo, you have used WS48 plenty of times to defend your position. Derrick Williams played much better than anyone (including me) thought he would that year. The team was 22-22 before Melo got hurt. Read the comments around that time. Even skeptical posters here were thrilled at how the team was playing, and very pleased with Derrick in particular. Who gives a fuck how he or Afflalo played after they left here? We got close to $13 million worth of production from them that year, and they opted out without any harm to us. Case closed,

    @112
    Agree re Melo. Phil tried to build around him, and that has turned out to be a huge mistake b/c Phil has pretty much wasted 3 years trying to do so. Hopefully he has now seen the light, but Melo’s NTC still casts a long shadow over the team.

    On the bright side, yeah, he has held onto the first rounders and there’s a chance that now, finally, a true rebuild can go. The next month or so will show. Stay away from any expensive free agents (the NBA media seems to think that no one wants to come here anyway; if so, GOOD). Maybe try to help a team clear cap space/be a third team in a deal to facilitate cap space for a decent piece.

    Just try to add a decent PG to mentor Frank and help all the young players develop. Houston is trying to clear cap space for Paul, so let’s try to grab Beverley on the cheap.

    When Phil signed Afflalo and Williams the Knicks were coming off a 17-win season. So thinking you’re gonna bring in those two jamokes as some kind of “win now” solution when you are literally the dregs of the NBA is… well, it doesn’t make a lot of sense. Those signings weren’t some horrendous mistake but they are indicative of just how uncreative Phil is with the cards he is dealt.

    Clashfan. Hell with that check out #72 GoNYGoNy, who in June 2015 capsulized all of KP”s shortcomings before he even played 1 min for the Nix. Called these flaws “correctable”, which I will say is a direct indictment of the coaching staff (including Longstaff). And KP himself as well.

    And let’s not cherry-pick stats, ptmilo, you have used WS48 plenty of times to defend your position.

    You suggested that DW played well and cited only his WS48 without also mentioning he was below replacement level in BPM, 69th of 75 PFs in real plus minus and his team was much worse when he played as every team he’s been on has always been. This was just prior to accusing someone of cherry picking. In general I try to use these simplified stats with as much context as I can, bc non are Delphic, but also have consistently preferred BPM if forced to pick in a vacuum. Is it possible I just disagree with you that WS is useful in a case like this where other #s metrics vehemently diverge? Especially when almost everyone agrees that this particular player acutely sucks at WS’s biggest vulnerability: measuring defense.

    But at that time, Melo had already been signed. There was no way that Jax was going to use cap space simply to acquire bad contracts and picks. Once you signed Melo, there was no other path other than win-now to at least some degree.

    I read that as a damning succinct indictment of the strategy. I don’t agree that there was no other path besides signing those contracts. If there was no way Phil was going to use cap space to acquired bad contracts for future assets he was making a mistake; Melo’s contract didn’t prevent it and subsequent to that signing he had new information. His team won 17 games.

    The team was 22-22 before Melo got hurt

    I mean come on. Look at that team. Run that season 1000 times, with 999 more spacially aware refs and that team is still mediocre even in the lucky years. I know playing .500 with a negative SRS for half of a 32 win season is fun for us Stockholm sufferers but it’s not a good defense of the strategy. We started last year 14-10 or 11 before another invisible ref snuck behind us.

    I’m not trying to “defend the strategy.” My point is that those particular moves were relatively inconsequential as part of a deeply flawed strategy and far less consequential than those on that thread predicted. The main reasons for hating those moves was that 1. the players acquired would suck and we’d be stuck with them for 2 years due to the absurdity of their player option; or 2. the players would play well, opt out, and we would not have locked them up for 2 years. No one considered option 3.: they would play relatively close to their “market value” (not their actual value to astute KBers; and both did) and opt out, freeing us of them and their contracts. As such, the moves had the best possible outcomes they could have had, even if part of a deeply flawed strategy.

    And there is no disputing that DWill played MUCH better than anyone here thought he would. He was a useful bench player at $5 mill for one year. I’m surprise that anyone would dispute that. Once his and Afflalo’s roles increased due to Melo’s injury and KP’s hitting the rookie wall, their stats and the team’s record was doomed; Rambis taking over the reins didn’t help either.

    JK47 When Phil signed Afflalo and Williams the Knicks were coming off a 17-win season. So thinking you’re gonna bring in those two jamokes as some kind of “win now” solution when you are literally the dregs of the NBA is… well, it doesn’t make a lot of sense.

    Do you imagine a world in which Phil Jackson doesn’t know that???????

    The main reasons for hating those moves was that 1. the players acquired would suck and we’d be stuck with them for 2 years due to the absurdity of their player option; or 2. the players would play well, opt out, and we would not have locked them up for 2 years. No one considered option 3.: they would play relatively close to their “market value” (not their actual value to astute KBers; and both did) and opt out, freeing us of them and their contracts. As such, the moves had the best possible outcomes they could have had, even if part of a deeply flawed strategy.

    I don’t think you read the thread correctly, or at least my contribution to it. It wasn’t that option 3 was not considered. It was that if option three was the best case scenario, and that best case scenario provided virtually no marginal utility while still paying the opportunity cost of cap space, the decision was by definition terrible.

    Although I don’t agree that either DW or AA played well for us, the point is that it truly doesn’t matter. Even the biggest admirer of those two guys in 2015-16 would presumably agree that they didn’t move the needle in a 32 win season. The Knicks paid cap space to write put options for no value. It doesn’t matter if they turned 31 wins into 32 wins or ( like I believe) 33 wins into 32. In both cases they paid a cost to take a risk for no meaningful possibility of reward. I agree it isn’t the most consequential thing in the world. But it was worth talking about bc many GM decisions are filled with genuine uncertainty about risk-reward (was Frank a good pick? Was Lee a good signing?) when made, but this one was not. It was a straight example of bad economics and that’s why people on the thread resorted to claiming it would help attract future free agents… and you are now resorting to arguing the bona fides of the guy who was just waived and then benched for an equally horrific defensive D Williams.

    When Phil signed Afflalo and Williams the Knicks were coming off a 17-win season. So thinking you’re gonna bring in those two jamokes as some kind of “win now” solution when you are literally the dregs of the NBA is… well, it doesn’t make a lot of sense. Those signings weren’t some horrendous mistake but they are indicative of just how uncreative Phil is with the cards he is dealt.

    They were indicative of the fact that he blew up the team in an effort to start rebuilding it but no one in free agency that is any good will go to team that sucks and is rebuilding. The good news is that Phil KNEW he was signing placeholders and didn’t give them long term deals. He was smart and signed them to short term while he continued with the multi year process of rebuilding.

    The idea was NOT WIN NOW. The idea was try to put a somewhat competitive team on the court without destroying flexibility going forward in the actual longer term plan.

    That’s why I repeatedly say Noah was pretty much his only clear error. He committed long term to an aging player with injury issues and foolishly gave him the extra year.

    to continue the last post.

    I fully understand the 76er approach of blowing up a team completely, fully tanking, and collecting as many high lottery picks as possible. I totally approve of that approach assuming you have an owner and fan base that can deal with it. They couldn’t deal with it in Philly. That’s why the brain child is gone.

    There’s NO WAY we could deal with it in NY.

    We’ve been in a kind hybrid mode where we are trying to rebuild young for the long term, but also want to put a somewhat competitive team on the court because NEW YORK.

    We won 32 and 31 games the last 2 years and every article from Frank Asshola is about how terrible Phil is and how terrible his cumulative record in NY is. Same thing on ESPN, the radio and everywhere else. The Knicks operate in a media environment where EVERYONE is rooting for us to fail.

    Phil is trying to rebuild taking a more middle of the road approach where he can still accumulate good young players, but not put a 15-20 win team on the court every year. The press would never tolerate it, the fans are going crazy about 30 win teams, and Phil and the coach would never survive it.

    What he is doing will not maximize the results, but it will allow him to build a good team over several years. Then once we are good, free agents will get more interested.

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