Knicks Morning News (2017.06.26)

  • [SNY Knicks] JRSportBrief: Picking Frank Ntilikina
    (Sunday, June 25, 2017 8:15:35 PM)

    In the latest installment of JRSportBrief on SNY.tv, JR discusses the Knicks’ selection of French point guard Frank Ntilikina.

  • [SNY Knicks] No. 44 selection Dotson ready to do whatever it takes for Knicks
    (Sunday, June 25, 2017 5:30:00 PM)

    The Knicks selected former Oregon and Houston guard Damyean Datson with the 44th overall pick in the NBA Draft.

  • [NYTimes] Essay: At the Pride Parade, the N.B.A. Embraces Hard-Won Victories
    (Monday, June 26, 2017 1:15:59 AM)

    The league entered a float in the parade for a second consecutive year, making it the only major sports league officially taking a prominent part in the gay pride event.

  • [NYPost] There’s only one way Carmelo Anthony will end up on Cavaliers
    (Sunday, June 25, 2017 7:54:47 PM)

    The Cavaliers don’t appear interested in trading for Carmelo Anthony — Paul George is their target — but reportedly would be a leading contender if the Knicks bought the 10-time All-Star out. You don’t say. ESPN reported the Cavaliers, Pacers and Nuggets engaged in serious three-way trade talk that would have landed George in Cleveland…

  • [NYPost] Knicks’ other French draft pick could stick around this time
    (Sunday, June 25, 2017 7:30:27 PM)

    More French dressing, please? The Knicks will have a second French draft pick on their summer-league team in Orlando, The Post has learned. Louis Labeyrie, the 6-foot-10 power forward whom the Knicks drafted in 2014 as a stash pick, paying Indiana $1.5 million for the 57th pick in the draft, has agreed to play in…

  • [NYPost] The quiet Porzingis family tragedy
    (Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:11:57 AM)

    An E:60 documentary that aired Sunday on Kristaps Porzingis’ life track from Latvia to the Knicks revealed a family tragedy that was previously unreported. According to the ESPN show, filmed mostly in Latvia last summer, another Porzingis brother passed away before Kristaps was born. Kristaps Porzingis has two older brothers, Janis, his agent, and Martins,…

  • 157 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.06.26)”

    I’m not sure what value Courtney Lee has — my feeling is he could probably bring a 1st round pick at the deadline. Kyle Korver brought a 1st round pick and Lee is a lot better than Korver, right? It was a little disappointing that we couldn’t trade him for a pick this draft, but oh well.

    Otherwise, I would be ok with trading him to Minnesota — say for Rubio, Bjelica, Minny’s 2nd rounder next year, and Miami’s 2019 second rounder. That would free up about 5.5MM for Minnesota getting them to 23-24MM in cap space. And we would add 2 euros, officially making us very close to the 1st majority Euro team in NBA history.

    Alternatively, we could trade them Lee for Rubio and Cole Aldrich, and take their 1st round pick 2 years after the Atlanta-MIN trade is consummated (very lightly protected, say 1-6 or something).

    Lee makes a lot more than Korver. It’s impossible to separate a player’s trade value from how much he makes. Korver is a relative discount, Lee is market value at best.

    I do not think Lee can fetch much in a trade and I will continue to think so until he does.

    Any Rubio deal has to be contingent on them agreeing terms with a PG in free agency. Doubt they’d move him before that and create a gaping hole in the lineup with Tyus Jones as their only backup plan.

    Frank @1

    for Rubio, Bjelica, Minny’s 2nd rounder next year, and Miami’s 2019 second rounder.

    That’s all you want for the great Courtney Lee???

    Alternatively, we could trade them Lee for Rubio and Cole Aldrich, and take their 1st round pick 2 years after the Atlanta-MIN trade is consummated (very lightly protected, say 1-6 or something).

    Yeah, rub it in. Poor Lee, I can’t imagine how slighted he feels reading this.

    Lee’s worth a lot more than Rubio to them if they want a PG who actually makes sense with their roster and a good backup wing. If they can agree terms with a PG who can space the floor in FA like Hill, Lowry or Holiday then swapping Rubio for Lee straight up with some added salary for the Knicks to take on and a 2nd round pick seems like a good deal.

    If I were the Wolves I’d consider just trying to sign Mills as a cheaper option and move Rubio to the bench. Not sure Mills has any intention of leaving San Antonio though.

    Lee for Rubio straight up is a great deal for us. If we did that, we might be kinda good next year. A Rubio-Frank backcourt with KP protecting the rim is downright scary defensively.

    I still think it’s in our best interest to tank one more year.

    Assuming we actually want to be a competitive team this year, Lee is an integral piece. Justin Holiday will probably go wherever Jrue goes, so that means probably MLE to NO while Jrue gets a max-ish offer (unless rumors are true that Jrue wants out of that situation). That leaves us with basically zero SGs with any real NBA experience — we’d be looking at starting Ron Baker, Dotson, or Frank at the 2.

    If we don’t necessarily want to be competitive this year but just want to rebuild the culture and develop the young guys, then Rubio makes sense as a mentor for Frank. The two of them can start in the backcourt with Baker/Dotson coming off the bench. The scoring production between those two starters will probably suck overall, but the defense at the point of attack will be 100x better than last year.

    by the way I really really don’t want Rose back. OF course it depends on the contract, but I just don’t see the point.

    Re: KP – someone on twitter brought up a good point about maybe why KP is ignoring Phil — because Phil will want him to skip the Latvian national team this summer and he’d have to willfully disobey that request.

    i think if we’re really committed to changing the culture both on and off the court.. then we really can’t be bringing rose back… i hope it’s just a case of keeping our options open…

    i kind of want rubio for win now reasons… but i also think it’s important to fall in the lotto to get a chance at porter or doncic… these guys are the real deal but unfortunately the others in the draft aren’t that good so it comes with great risk…

    if rubio talks fall through i wouldn’t mind taking a flyer on a cheap tyus jones deal… looks like he took a decent step up last year…

    Bringing back Rose at any price would debase this franchise even further, which is saying something. Not to mention it would be an awful basketball decision, but I guess we’re numb to those at this point.

    The problem with Lee is while I think there are a lot of teams that would love to add a player like him, there aren’t many who have a feasible way to either add his salary or send out matching contracts. That’s why signing unexceptional 30+ year olds to “market value” deals really isn’t prudent as a non-competitor–there’s just no guarantee you’ll be able to find a taker for them.

    Lee for Rubio straight up is a great deal for us. If we did that, we might be kinda good next year… I still think it’s in our best interest to tank one more year.

    Rubio has never played on a winning team in the NBA. His teams have averaged 28 wins a year since he entered the league.

    I’m not saying it’s because of him, but he’s played with some very good players and his teams have routinely underperformed expectations

    So the 2018 tank should be safe either way.

    There is idle chatter in this piece about the Cavs being the leader for Melo should he secure a buyout:

    http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19735485/cleveland-cavaliers-continue-pursuit-paul-george-leading-contender-land-carmelo-Anthony

    I have not seen anything concrete stating the Knicks are looking into this, and I hope they’re not. There’s no way you can let Melo join the cavs for the veteran minimum while we pay his $25mm. Neither Melo nor Cleveland should even think that’s a possibility.

    Lee for Rubio is an obsession in this blog, right?

    Why would the Wolves pay 14 million for Lee so he can backup Butler for 10 minutes a night?

    That no trade clause has us fucked so badly. Melo can just refuse any trades, not try on defense, and poison the locker room. He knows he’s got us over a barrel now.

    So the 2018 tank should be safe either way.

    Yeah, I’m not worried about us being good next year 🙂

    That no trade clause has us fucked so badly. Melo can just refuse any trades, not try on defense, and poison the locker room. He knows he’s got us over a barrel now.

    You’re right. But we can’t let him think he can have his cake and eat it, too.

    We have a little leverage, too. He may never play a meaningful basketball game again if he doesn’t waive that NTC. If he wants to go Cleveland, it needs to be for matching salary and future first round picks.

    Also… stretching him is pretty bad for us for the next five years. He’s got, what, two years, $50mm left, or something like that? I know the option counts as a year. So that becomes 5 years with ten million of dead cap space. Fuck that.

    Then again, would it really surprise if we’re still paying the price for acquiring Carmelo Anthony in 2022? Probably not.

    Phil played mind games as a coach but as a GM he needs to learn different mind games. I think trashing players as the coach can work (or it did back in the day) but as GM you need to learn to say one thing and do another.

    So here’s what Phil needs to do. He needs to publicly state that he wants Melo to stay here for the rest of his contract. Something like “Melo’s invaluable veteran leadership and scoring is exactly what this young team needs while we rebuild.” Then direct Horns behind closed doors to have Melo come off the bench as the 6th man. This will allow KP, Willie and Frank to start without Melo and learn how to play together. Make Melo a bench player. If Melo pouts or refuses to play then he’ll get absolutely trashed in the media. IF asked Phil just says “you know I trust Horns as the coach. Talk to him.” Horns just says something like “we need Melo’s scoring off the bench to bolster the second unit.” That’s all he has to say. Melo will then either waive his NTC or will not pick up his option at the end of the year.

    The two outcomes we want is either A) we trade Melo for something decent (i.e., at least one first round pick) or B) Melo doesn’t pick up his last year and we’re done with this in a year. We do not want the outcome where we trade him for garbage contracts that last longer than 2 years. We do not want to waive him and have to pay him while he’s on another team and we definitely do not want to stretch him cause its way too long to eat up cap space like that.

    @19

    I was going to post something very similar to that.

    If you can move Melo this offseason, great! I wouldn’t even care if they got nothing of value in return for him, I’d be happy with a salary dump. That’s the best case scenario, that he waives his NTC and he gets moved.

    Failing that, Plan B should be to get him to exercise his ETO and leave after one more season. If that means making him a bench player or cutting his minutes, go ahead and do it. By the end of 2017-2018, the message should be sent that if he returns to the 2018-2019 Knicks, he will not get any court time. He’ll be the 15th man. See if he’s up for a full season of that. My guess is that he wouldn’t be.

    He may never play a meaningful basketball game again

    I don’t think he cares

    I doubt that Melo will opt out next year. It’s a LOT of money to leave.

    IMO the two options that he is working are:

    a) Outlast Phil in the organization. Make Phil get fired or resign.

    b) Make this season a living hell for the Knicks and get a buyout so he can choose whatever he wants to play and still get all the money.

    Melo may not care about winning, but he does think very highly of himself, so it might work telling him that he’s going to get Marbury’d and never see a minute of floor time if he returns for that last season. That might get his attention.

    I don’t think he cares

    Then I’m inclined to give him the Marbury treatment for a year. And if he wants to opt in for another year of that after, and essentially retire this summer, good on him.

    @19 & @20 – you guys are both right, but I think Phil has gone too far down the other road to turn back now.

    Rubio has never played on a winning team in the NBA. His teams have averaged 28 wins a year since he entered the league.

    Always hard to separate out whose fault the winning and losing is. Kevin Love had the same issue. I think if you’re supposed to be a transcendental player then sure, your team should win – like any team with Durant, Lebron, or CP3 will always be a winning team because those players are just that good. But short of that level of player, I think it’s hard to know whose fault it is. That’s why these advanced models exist. For example – Rubio’s PG rank in ESPN’s opaque RPM:
    2016-17 -> 9th
    2015-16 -> 5th
    2014-15 -> 11th
    2013-14 -> 9th

    Perhaps most importantly – he has had a positive RPM on both sides of the court every season. Pretty uncommon for PGs. This past season of the top 20 offensive RPM PGs, only 6 had a corresponding positive defensive RPM – Rubio, CP3, Curry, Lowry, Hill, and Beverley.

    if you ask me it’s a no-brainer to trade Lee for Rubio in some way shape or form.

    Why would the Wolves pay 14 million for Lee so he can backup Butler for 10 minutes a night?

    First of all Lee makes 11.7MM this year which is about 2.5MM less than Rubio. And one could easily make the argument that assuming Thibs is going to sign an expensive FA PG, why would the Wolves pay Rubio $14MM to back up that PG for 10 min/game?

    Second, even under Thibs there will easily be 20-25 minutes of wing time for Lee, who provides exactly the things that their current players don’t — high efficiency scoring / shooting without requiring the ball in his hands. Outside of Towns, there are literally zero shooters on that roster right now. And he at least tries on defense.

    @19
    Phil should coach the team if he wants to play melo off the bench, don’t put it on hornacek.
    Which would probably happen anyway because hornacek will be forced to step down. If You think melo will be cool with coming off the bench than your crazy, This ain’t marbury the head case.

    Minnesota can flat out sign redick to a deal cheaper than Lee.

    by the way – as much as I like to opine here about triangle and systems etc, I really don’t understand how the triangle as we are supposed to run it here differs from what, say, GS does in their offense “with triangle aspects”. Can any of the x-and-o talented people explain?

    I wonder this for a couple reasons, but mostly because of the idea that it is possible that Phil is right — that the Triangle would work if only the players would actually do it. Pretty much any previous Triangle / Phil player has said what the Knicks run doesn’t resemble the triangle at all. And coach Nick from bballbreakdown as written on Twitter that the knicks are basically running a kindergarten version of it if at all.

    That would also be a possible reason it makes sense to bring Rose back on a reasonable contract — that it would prevent us from having to sign yet another person who has to be taught the Triangle from scratch. That’s not a good reason, per se, but it is a reason.

    I’ve sort of come to the “acceptance” portion of the offseason in which I’ve given up hope that Phil will be fired, and that if we’re going to do this Triangle thing, we should just really do it 1000%.

    Minnesota can flat out sign redick to a deal cheaper than Lee.

    Sure, but then they’d have no cap room to sign anyone else significant.

    Right now Minny has about $17MM-ish in cap space. That won’t even get them to the FA PG they want. Figure Hill or Holiday are going to start at least around $25MM. From all reports, Redick is expecting a starting # in the high teens, and there are literally no other good SGs on the market. So this will be a seller’s market for SGs.

    That would leave them woefully short of signing a FA PG — and it’s quite clear that they want what they think is an upgrade from Rubio.

    If, for instance, they do the trade I mentioned (Rubio + Bjelica for Lee), that would get Minny to about $24MM in space. If it’s Aldrich coming, it’s close to $28MM. And they get wing shooting/defense which they need. If you ask me it’s a win-win for both sides.

    As far as I’m concerned Melo is fulfilling his side of the contract and we should fulfill ours. He may not be the player we want him to be but he is exactly the player we voluntarily signed, only older. If the team is better with Melo off the bench then he comes off the bench. Otherwise he starts. Either way no “Marbury” treatment.

    We had a modest chance to increase Melo’s willingness to accept a trade when he actually had value by simply not throwing $100m in contracts at win now 30 year olds last summer, while also trading for Rose — a player bound to be overvalued by most players. But even if he was never going to accept a trade, that is the deal we signed.

    Other than a couple of egregious incidents last year of embarrassing himself by all but begging to be tossed, he is playing exactly like Carmelo Anthony on both ends. That is who we signed and those are the handcuffs we happily slapped on ourselves. We should wear them.

    Why would Minnesota trade for Lee who plays the 2 when they just picked up Butler who plays the same position? I would love to get Rubio but I don’t think Minnesota would have a lot of interest in Lee at hat price.

    I’m not suggesting we marbury him. Still play him. Just don’t start him and tell the press its for the good of the team that he be the 6th man where he can lead the second unit and do his ISO thing while the starters run the triangle.

    As far as Rubio…why not KQ and Kuz for Rubio? They liked Kuz I remember and KQ would give them a very competent and cheap big man for a year. Would free up like 8 or 9 million in cap space for them too.

    Twolves have a real shot at being v good now…. They may want Lee because they need a bench, that the only reason I could see them making a push for Lee and maybe KOQ

    @31 exactly. That’s why I always laugh at fans talking about loyalty. Melo just signed the contract. Phil offered it. Now you want to put ish a guy for upholding his end of a deal?

    golden state runs some triangle sets… it’s not like they run it even 5% of the time.. but you see it every now and then…

    it’s really just a lot of different stuff… san antonio, obv d’antoni, princeton, ucla even some flex sets that hornacek/sloan runs… and they take what they like out of all of the different offenses… but the basic principles are spacing.. constant motion.. moving the ball… it’s not exclusive to the triangle but when you say those three things ppl think of the triangle…

    Why would Minnesota trade for Lee who plays the 2 when they just picked up Butler who plays the same position? I would love to get Rubio but I don’t think Minnesota would have a lot of interest in Lee at hat price.

    They literally have zero shooting on the team other than Towns. They need shooting. Shooting is expensive. Assuming they get a pricey FA PG, Rubio is just making too much money given they have Tyus Jones who is pretty good, and they have needs elsewhere –> specifically wing depth, shooting, and defense.

    They currently don’t have any wings on the team other than Butler and Wiggins. Shabazz will be released. Again – they have ZERO wings other than Butler and Wiggins. Wings are expensive in FA, especially ones that can shoot and are not a negative on defense.

    This makes so much sense to me I’m honestly having a hard time understanding why it’s not obvious to everyone. But to each his own I guess.

    That would also be a possible reason it makes sense to bring Rose back on a reasonable contract — that it would prevent us from having to sign yet another person who has to be taught the Triangle from scratch. That’s not a good reason, per se, but it is a reason.

    I don’t really understand the Rose acquisition in the first place. I know Phil wanted a penetrating guard and that is key in the Triangle, but other than his ability to penetrate Rose’s skillset is a bad fit for a motion-based offense that relies on quick decisions, off-ball movement and spacing. Plus Rose’s defense is truly abysmal. His effort on the defensive end is almost nonexistent and he has got to be one of the easiest defenders to screen in the entire league. Rose is simply not a high-IQ player or a team-oriented player. He also didn’t seem to even like playing in the Triangle.

    I just don’t get the Derrick Rose thing at all.

    @38 – lol I said it was a reason (but not a good reason)

    Yes, agree completely. I want no part of Derrick Rose on this team.

    Lee for Rubio is an obsession in this blog, right?

    Why would the Wolves pay 14 million for Lee so he can backup Butler for 10 minutes a night?

    I agree with the point you are making. Once the T-Wolves traded Dunn and acquired Butler, it made less sense to trade Rubio or acquire Lee. Lee would be a backup on Minny and now they need a starting PG.

    However, as Frank suggested it does clear some cap space on their quest to sign a elite PG and add some shooting. Also, they could play a small lineup of Butler at SF and Lee at SG at times. If all else fails they could also easily fit Rose into their cap space and have both a starting PG and improve their shooting with Lee.

    @31 exactly. That’s why I always laugh at fans talking about loyalty. Melo just signed the contract. Phil offered it. Now you want to put ish a guy for upholding his end of a deal?

    I’m calling BS on this. While you are technically correct from a legal standpoint Me7o upheld his end of the deal (he showed up when he was supposed to) he hasn’t upheld the actual deal (eg: not sabotage Lin and Pringles, play within the offense, not give effort on D or pass, isoball , etc.)

    The Knicks are completely within their rights not to give him any playing time as long as they send him his checks. I would mandate he works out for 2 hours at a separate facility so he remains in basketball condition but bar him from MSG and their facilities if it comes to that. Bleep him where he breathes if he wants to have a flash down.

    I just don’t get the Derrick Rose thing at all.

    It was an attempt to appease Melo by giving him a more seasoned player but without taking a major risk. If you remember, Melo was seriously considering signing with Chicago to play with Rose and Noah and they were recruiting him.

    The worst thing that could possibly happen happened. The Knicks still sucked and Rose needed another surgery. So big deal. We got the 7th pick, Rose is off the books, and now we have cap space to replace Lopez with some other need.

    Signing Rose was close to a non event. Signing Noah was THE mistake.

    Then I’m inclined to give him the Marbury treatment for a year. And if he wants to opt in for another year of that after, and essentially retire this summer, good on him.

    There are shades between black and white.

    We could easily start him but reduce his minutes and give some of our young players a lot more time to develop. If he starts causing trouble in the locker room, then you can deal with that when it happens.

    I’m calling BS on this. While you are technically correct from a legal standpoint Me7o upheld his end of the deal (he showed up when he was supposed to) he hasn’t upheld the actual deal (eg: not sabotage Lin and Pringles, play within the offense, not give effort on D or pass, isoball , etc.)

    The Knicks are completely within their rights not to give him any playing time as long as they send him his checks. I would mandate he works out for 2 hours at a separate facility so he remains in basketball condition but bar him from MSG and their facilities if it comes to that. Bleep him where he breathes if he wants to have a flash down.

    He was signed In 2014. What the he’ll are you talking about? Melo was Melo for 3 years already. All of the bad knick records are under Phil Jackson

    >>>>>>from @28:If You think melo will be cool with coming off the bench than your crazy, This ain’t marbury the head case. <<<<<<<

    True. He's another kind of head case. Of course, Melo won't be "cool" coming off the bench.
    But what would he do? Call the union? Call his mommy? Surely there would be repercussions, but so what?
    Tough it out.

    I agree fully with posters @19 and 20 about a course of action concerning Melo.
    However, management, coaching staff and ownership have to show a mega amount of toughness which I strongly doubt they are capable of.

    So what to do when those recommendations are not taken? At least Jackson should state publicly that
    he has "come to realize" that (paraphrasing from @19: )“Melo’s invaluable veteran presence, and scoring is what this young team needs while we rebuild.”With Melo, try some humility. Try reconciliation. Respect him. Talk to him. At the same time, tell him (not ask him) that his playing time will be reduced. Do not say, "You don't like it, you got options".

    I don't thing we can get rid of him before is contract is over. One could only hope.

    Hilarious that after giving up the core of a 57-25 Nuggets team, the Knicks are going to have to buy him out to move on from the trainwreck that has been his Knick career.

    Where’s ruruland at?

    Willy gets 1st team all-rookie –> much deserved!

    Is Clarence Gaines the guy who does our European scouting? I’m assuming it’s not Phil, because a) Europe is far, and b) we seem to be good at it.

    The success of KP and Willy gives me confidence that Frank is the goods.

    I agree with Milo, just let him play out his contract. Reduce his minutes and his role and if he takes issue, well tough shit–this is the bed Melo and the Knicks made for themselves.

    Don’t buy him out and for the love of god don’t stretch him

    Hilarious that after giving up the core of a 57-25 Nuggets team, the Knicks are going to have to buy him out to move on from the trainwreck that has been his Knick career.

    Where’s ruruland at?

    He’s crafting an essay about the hidden value of Melo’s future wasted cap space. It will make all the cap space around it more efficient.

    The sad reality is we are one ricky Rubio away to be an exciting team next year.
    Rubio, lee, Melo, KP, Willy. Plus the once in a while rubiomtrade to give way to frank. That 5 can even make the playoff. I can see great chemistry with that.
    Too unfortunate that Rubio is available but we can’t trade for him. They said the wolves need shooting from a pg. I don’t know how things could work but Rubio seems to be a perfect fit.

    Hilarious that after giving up the core of a 57-25 Nuggets team, the Knicks are going to have to buy him out to move on from the trainwreck that has been his Knick career.

    Where’s ruruland at?

    Hilarious that only 1 player in that trade was top 10 in ws/48 over 50 games for Denver. And that is still the last winning nuggets season. What a core.

    Rubio, lee, Melo, KP, Willy.

    Carmelo shot .535 TS% last year against a .552 league average. He set a careet low (by far) in ORB%, nearly half of his previous low. He set his worst TRB% mark since 2007. He set his worst AST% mark since 2006. His WS48 was a career low at .089. He had a negative BPM. He had <1 VORP in 2500+ minutes, his first sub-1 mark since his sophomore season in 2005. His .026 WP48 is remarkably bad for a player with a full no-trade clause.

    Melo will be a contributor to no successful team next year. If he is traded, expect huge leaps forward by the rookies in their counting stats. Bill Simmons might have to rename the theory.

    Hilarious that only 1 player in that trade was top 10 in ws/48 over 50 games for Denver. And that is still the last winning nuggets season. What a core.

    I don’t think that’s a fair assessment. That Nuggets team was very good. They won 57 games, but then ownership had a massive brain fart, fired Karl, started dismantling the team, started moving away from playing as fast, driving to the paint, and shooting 3s for more of a slow down half court game that failed miserably and made everyone unhappy.

    Hilarious that only 1 player in that trade was top 10 in ws/48 over 50 games for Denver. And that is still the last winning nuggets season. What a core.

    Nice job setting that arbitrary game total to make your point. Ever the apologist.

    Does it make you mad that Gallinari was better than Carmelo and the Knicks still traded multiple first-rounders away in addition to him? It feels like you’re mad. Are you?

    (Also, Carmelo was #9 in WS48 the year he got traded to the Knicks, #4 the year before and #7 the year before that. You mad?)

    Nice job setting that arbitrary game total to make your point. Ever the apologist.

    You brought up 57 wins. Would someone not have to play a lot of games to be a core of that?

    If you take out the 50 game Mark they had 2 players and the second played 41 games. Gallinari is not better than Melo at anything except maybe free throw shooting so why would I be mad?

    I have always said the Knicks got fleeced in that trade. They gave up way too much, so there’s no argument from me.

    You just made a bullshit comment trying to be slick and I set you straight. There was 1 knick who was a core member of the 57 win team.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2013.html

    I don’t really care either way, but if you take away last year’s records didn’t Denver still have a better record than the Knicks since the Melo trade?

    Yeah the sure did. But that goes deeper than melo, that has more to do with management. The Knicks could have been better if they made better decisions i.e. not trading a first for bargnani or trading shump for Lowery.

    mr. philmelo… if you’re basing it on the video…. then please count how many plays they run in total and go look at a box score to see how many possessions there are in a typical game… that’s assuming all the plays they run are actual triangle sets which they aren’t… they run that guard squeeze play a good deal ever since kerr came on.. but that’s about as triangle as they get….

    you keep citing stuff without actually looking at it…

    I don’t really care either way, but if you take away last year’s records didn’t Denver still have a better record than the Knicks since the Melo trade?

    I have a spread sheet that can track SRS from Date 1 through Date 2 (though I don’t use it anymore). The Knicks SRS got worse after the trade and Nugget’s SRS improved. By virtually every measurement, the Nuggets got the best of the deal even before all the picks settled. But once teams start making other moves it all becomes too difficult to measure.

    My guess is that if each team had the chance to do the trade over neither would- it wound up being lose, lose. If Gallo had been able to stay healthy maybe it’s a different story but he couldn’t.

    Knicks could have been better if they made better decisions i.e. not trading a first for bargnani or trading shump for Lowery.

    As I said, the Nuggets management was ridiculously incompetent after that first great season without Melo. Around that time, I was so furious with the Knicks for blowing up the young core they had for Melo, I was watching as much Nuggets basketball as Knicks basketball. That team was young, good, and playing well and then they fired Karl and started blowing it up.

    I was doing the Melo remorse thing prior to the draft.
    I will never forgive Dolan for this. We will never know what might have been had the Knicks not given up all it did to get Melo, and the terrible decisions that followed to make up for the hamstringing the Melo trade did to the franchise.

    That team was young, good, and playing well and then they fired Karl and started blowing it up.

    Well I think Karl would have been fired if they didn’t win so much. And iguodala left too

    I was doing the Melo remorse thing prior to the draft.
    I will never forgive Dolan for this. We will never know what might have been had the Knicks not given up all it did to get Melo, and the terrible decisions that followed to make up for the hamstringing the Melo trade did to the franchis

    If the Knicks gave up 1 less player and 1 less pick and made good decisions, I think the Knicks could have been a team that routinely made the conference finals. That Billups amnesty was ridiculous. And we knew cp3 wanted to come. But it is what it is at this point.

    Yeah getting Melo was not the problem. I mean, if anything he was insurance for Amare breaking down.

    The problem was giving up Mosgov and an extra pick. Keep those, don’t pick up Billups option and then amnesty him and you could have made a play for Chandler AND CP3. Melo, Chandler and CP3 would have given The Heat a run for their money at least.

    Ok I long suspected it, but this cherry picking of stats, useage of ws/48, Nuggets bashing, melo defending, and all of a sudden large, grammatically correct post when ruruland is being called out, really makes me convinced that er is ruruland.

    Well I think Karl would have been fired if they didn’t win so much. And iguodala left too

    Good point on Iggy. I forgot that one. That wasn’t really management’s fault. Iggy saw a better opportunity in Golden State and took it. That hurt the Nuggets.

    He was signed In 2014. What the he’ll are you talking about? Melo was Melo for 3 years already. All of the bad knick records are under Phil Jackson

    What do you mean what am I talking about? No one is arguing whether signing Melo was good or bad…. just dealing with today. His selfishness on the floor doesn’t need to be updated. The problem is dealing with today as it is not what might have been.

    I don’t want the man spewing venom in the locker room. He gets paid regardless but I don’t want him in the same zip code of the locker room. If he won’t accept a trade , fine. you don’t play or come anywhere near the team

    you know, for all the retrospective sadness about the Melo trade, we were the #2 seed in the conference just 2 seasons later (1 season?), and without Chandler’s injury, may have been a pretty damn good team in 2013-14 also (we closed the year 18-6 and just missed the playoffs).

    This train really went off the rails when Phil jackson came and blew up the team. In the Woodson/D’Antoni system, Melo was really pretty good. He’s certainly had an age-related decline, but there’s no doubt that we were a good team with Melo as the centerpiece, and that the hiring of Phil is really what sent us into dumpster fire mode.

    But yes, we gave up too much in the Melo trade. I’m sure THCJ will go back and find various comments from me, but if I remember correctly I was advocating for saying Wilson Chandler + Eddy Curry, take it or leave it and we’ll take our chances signing Melo in FA. Instead we gave up everything and more.

    Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I would be open to just buying Melo out. I thought differently earlier today but now I’m coming around to it. Just hear me out.

    If we bought him out, we need to negotiate with him that it would just be for this year and not next year too when he has a player option. Or whoever takes him needs to the ones paying the bill for that if he picks it up.

    It would be a total white flag and Phil would be roasted for it royally. But I think its better than trading him for bad contracts or letting him stay on the team where his presence could cause A LOT of drama and hurt our young team. Take Melo out of the equation and you can truly reset and start over. I know it would suck for us in some ways, giving up the hope of getting any good assets for him in return, but at the same time we could just end this whole thing. Then turn to KP and say “this is your team now.” Get him Rubio somehow and be move on to the next chapter in this franchise.

    Plus we would be guaranteed to suck without Melo, even if we got Rubio we would still have a gaping hole at SF and would lose a lot of scoring. But the team would be losing in the right way, developing the young players. Then we get a high draft pick and now we’re going into next season with cap space from Melo, 4 young foundational pieces plus Rubio. I could really get behind that.

    Knicks fans specialize in What Could Have Been because What Is is so unbearable.

    However much you fault Phil, Strat is right – the only non-fixable offense is the Noah deal. Look, I get it – there is opportunity cost, and Phil could have made BETTER moves. Sure. But with the basic moves he’s made, if Clarence knows his stuff and Frank is legit, we are in a decent position going forward.

    So long as we –

    do NOT stretch Melo
    do NOT sign Rose
    do NOT sign average FAs to long-term deals

    Then we are sitting pretty.

    I feel like it’s unlikely we do any of those things, but who knows. I mean, even signing Rose, if only for a year, is not impossible to recover from – I just hate everything about the guy and don’t want him on the team. But we absolutely must not stretch Melo. And no long-term deals to overrated FAs – but Phil has never done that, except Melo, so we’re probably OK there.

    If nothing changes by the beginning of the season, I will be optimistic. 2018-2019 could be a good year – with a sustainable core.

    No way would I buy out Melo.
    No way would I give up anything for Rubio.
    I’m only interested in acquiring young players and/or draft picks. There’s no benefit to being just “better”. The goal is to become the “best”. We’re 4-5 players away from that.

    And don’t get me wrong. I love Rubio’s game and I’m a Carmelo Anthony fan. But to reach the goal we need to build from youth.

    Given what we know about Melo, it seems pretty unlikely that he’d altogether give up that last year of guaranteed money in a buyout situation — he’ll never make that money back. Does anyone know if it’s possible to negotiate down the total value of a contract for buyout purposes?

    Frank, what are you smoking? Tyson and the vets were the centerpiece of a good team – Melo was and is the same player he’s always been. Our wins came from T-1000, Kidd (until he got old) and Rashid (until he got hurt). But management didn’t even understand that. When they stopped using D’Antoni’s offense and truly made Melo the centerpiece, that was it. Mediocrity forever….because the East is big, man.

    Total revisionist history about “we became bad when Phil arrived.” Right. Amazing how he traded that pick for Bargnani before he even got here! Real Zen Master shit.

    @43 (sorry, slow to respond)… I like a lot of your posts but I do take issue with a couple of points here…

    First, we surely have to evaluate the team’s move as a strategic set not as individuals. I don’t think one day Phil traded for rose in a relatively low risk move which would have made sense as a cap dump, then the next day suddenly thought ‘hey, you know what? Maybe I’ll spend my cap space on a Lopez replacement in his 30s with a big four year contract’. Good franchises make connected decisions towards a strategic plan. If Phil wants to be viewed as a good gm we should hold him to that standard. Phil was trying to execute a ‘win now’ off-season. And as a connected series of moves to take Lopez and some space and replace that with rose, Noah and less space, it was a bad set of moves which didn’t achieve the goal.

    Second, in this context I’m not sure the ‘worst thing that could have happened’ did actually happen. Going into the year a lot of people were saying we could win some games ‘if we could stay healthy’. But in fact, even when we were healthy we were terrible. In games Noah played we were actually worse in win % than for the season as a whole. Until the all star break we were pretty healthy as a whole and we sucked. Noah then rose got injured and we didn’t get appreciably worse. But now we’re stuck with Noah’s deal and are in a full rebuild.

    By almost any measure, as an approach to utilising the assets he had available to him this was just a bad set of moves with bad long-term, as well as short-term, consequences…

    Our wins came from T-1000, Kidd (until he got old) and Rashid (until he got hurt). But management didn’t even understand that. When they stopped using D’Antoni’s offense and truly made Melo the centerpiece, that was it. Mediocrity forever….because the East is big, man.

    This is a terrible post. Melo had his highest usage that year and was 3rd in mvp. Lol it was a team effort, I love how all of the people who hate melo try to discredit him. It discredits your opinion.

    The Knicks went on a massive winning streak at the end of the season with no Chandler and no Wallace and a broken Down Kidd who couldn’t even contribute by playoff time. Jeez

    Frank, what are you smoking? Tyson and the vets were the centerpiece of a good team – Melo was and is the same player he’s always been. Our wins came from T-1000, Kidd (until he got old) and Rashid (until he got hurt). But management didn’t even understand that. When they stopped using D’Antoni’s offense and truly made Melo the centerpiece, that was it. Mediocrity forever….because the East is big, man.

    If you’re talking about leadership, sure — the Rasheed/Kidd/Kurt were the leaders of the 2012-13 Knicks. If you’re talking about the gravity that Tyson’s rim-running caused, and the value of his offensive rebounding, sure — super important. But Melo had a 35 and 32 usage at an above average TS those 2 years and gave the best WS/48’s of his career those 2 seasons (0.184 and 0.172). He was undeniably the go-to scorer on those teams. And by the way, they were still very much running a similar offense under Woodson, but also running some of the Melo-friendly stuff.

    Even with Bargnani on the team and Tyson out for 1/3 of the season, we won 37 games — and Phil turned 37 wins into 17 wins the very next season.

    Total revisionist history about “we became bad when Phil arrived.” Right. Amazing how he traded that pick for Bargnani before he even got here! Real Zen Master shit.

    He did trade team mvp Chandler for a bag of balls. And Jr and shump for a ham sandwich

    Phil went into the summer with a transcendent young talent, a potentially useful young piece in Willy and all his future picks. It was ripe for a rebuild – we already had a better young piece than the sixers had from YEARS of tanking.

    We came out of it with $30m per year – c30% of the cap – invested in ‘win now’ moves that produced a team that was only on track to win 30 even when healthy…

    Then he trashed his best asset to accelerate a rebuild in the national media.

    He could have had a clear cap but for Melo, a better market for Melo, a higher pick than 8 and a clear path to being good.

    Instead he has a devalued star who he might need to buy out, extending our ‘dead money’ to more like 40% (if stretched) or 50% (if not), a lower (albeit promising) pick, and is seriously considerIf unwinding the only upside of last summer (Rose’s deal being one year) by bringing him back, all the while preaching ‘systems’ and culture – two things to which rose the complete opposite.

    Reducing this to ‘the only real problem is the Noah deal’ is so generous to Phil and is to completely miss what should be an absolute minimum standard for strategic understanding from a $12m per year executive.

    I don’t understand the rules governing buying players out, waving them etc…

    If we bought him out, I assume we would be stuck with virtually his entire salary going against our cap space next year and perhaps the year after that if he opts in. If so, I don’t see the point. It’s not like the Knicks have zero leverage. There may be a team that wants him, if not now, later in the season. He may also be so miserable playing on a young team where he’s getting fewer minutes that he’s willing to broaden the list of teams he’s willing to go to for half a season because he can opt out next year.

    @ 76 – Rubio is not old though. He’s 26. In 2 years when his contract ends, he’ll be 28. Which means that you could resign him if you wanted as the starting PG and he could be part of the “early prime” years for Zinger, Willie H, Frank and our draft pick next year. Sure you might have to replace him after that for their mid prime years, but I think Rubio, if acquired, could very much be part of the long term future here.

    If you resign Rubio in 2 years for 5 years you get him in his mid to late prime years…so you still get peak Rubio to go along with young peak Zinger/Willie H and Frank.

    @85 as I understand it, if we waive him, the option year automatically gets picked up. If he gets claimed on waivers, then we’re off the hook (but no one will pick up that contract).

    So unless there’s some way to negotiate down the total $ left on the deal, we’d be looking at a ~$11MM/year cap hit for the next 5 seasons. That is a total nonstarter IMHO.

    Either convince him to accept a trade, or just keep him on the team and make the best of it. But waiving him is the worst solution.

    (I guess you don’t HAVE to stretch-waive him – you could just “regular”-waive him and eat the contract these next 2 years – that is preferable to the stretch-waive as far as I’m concerned, but still an awful outcome)

    Yes I don’t understand why they just can’t cut melo and just have his money count on the cap for the next 2 years. No need for stretch right?

    I think that’s right – the whole remainder of his salary hits our cap – either in full for 2 years or stretched over 5. In that scenario, better to hold and bench him and then I think he opts out and it only costs is one year.

    What I’m not sure is if, specifically in this case, he’s allowed to decline his player option now, a year in advance. If so, and we went to him and said ‘we’ll either bench you for 2 years or buy you out if you decline now’ -he would surely take the buy out? Then. Think we’re better taking the hit in one year than stretching over 3.

    @80

    I can’t disagree with your point on Noah. I’ve said the same thing. The worst thing about the Rose trade was that it lead to Noah, but that kind of thing is not inevitable. Once he went down the path of trading for Rose, he could have negotiated with Noah and still said no to 4 years. That may have forced him to pick up a weaker player, but he didn’t HAVE to make a bad deal. Phil thought Noah still had something in the tank and the shoulder injury was not an indication of him being on a serious decline. I guess he ignored the foot and knee problems, doh!

    Bench Melo and regain leverage over him. Make him the 6th man.

    Every night he sits in the darkness while 5 other Knicks are announced as starters to much fanfare, esp. at MSG. This will eat away at him. Night after night.

    He’ll want to be traded, or surely will opt out. His ego’s the thing.

    It’s crazy Rubio is only 26.

    This deal makes so much sense if it doesn’t happen it’s because Knicks fans are destined to suffer.

    I recently saw a picture of Rubio, KP, and WH hanging out together in Spain. They obviously all like each other and WH and RR have played together before. If we can’t get this done it’s sad.

    Bench Melo and regain leverage over him. Make him the 6th man.

    Every night he sits in the darkness while 5 other Knicks are announced as starters to much fanfare, esp. at MSG. This will eat away at him. Night after night.

    He’ll want to be traded, or surely will opt out. His ego’s the thing.

    Leave a Reply

    You guys are acting like the media will just be cool with this. This place will become an even bigger circus. Sigh I’m tired of the Knicks being a carnival act. Just cut him please!

    I’d rather just waive him and pay for the 2 years than stretch him. That would be super dumb and no reason to do that. Sure it would suck paying him for 2 years BUT we also would not spend that cap space on free agents for 2 years, giving us time to suck enough to acquire more lottery picks in the draft. Then by the time Zinger, Willie H, and Frank are all starting to put it together and next year’s pick has a year under his belt…then we have Melo’s cap space to add to the team. Then what a year later Noah’s money is off the books too.

    Honestly, I think its not the best outcome but its better than stretching him or trading him for garbage players with bad contracts. At least it gets him out of NYC. Again, Phil would have to take the hit in the media when it initially happened but once he’s gone, the team can just focus on the youth completely. Do what a lot of people wish we did 3 years ago.

    @92 – totally agree, the Noah signing could still have been avoided/done better.

    My worry is that one of two things must be true – either rose and Noah were connected dots in a master plan, or he was just living hand-to-mouth with each move and no underlying plan at all. If the latter he has no place as a GM. And if the former, he’s just plain bad at it…

    @86 – I like Rubio, but I’m not giving up youth or picks for him. Is Frank Ntilikina going to be a 2-guard? If Ntilikina turns out to be a good defensive player, putting him alongside Rubio will hopefully make us a good defensive team. That’s a start. But we can’t give up young assets. Those we need to hoard.

    @93 – That’s what I would do. Bench Melo. Make him the forgotten man. I would make him the 15th man. Oh, and screw the media.

    Here’s the fix. I’m amazed none of you thought of this.
    Fire Horny. Make Melo Player-Coach.

    But Melo had a 35 and 32 usage at an above average TS those 2 years and gave the best WS/48’s of his career those 2 seasons (0.184 and 0.172).

    Yeah, fair enough. I concede the point. Though I’d still say that well above-average production does not make a centerpiece to a serious contender.

    I guess I am influenced by how much I dislike his game. And his effort. And his bad effect on his teammates’ attitudes.

    Forget the media. They hate the Knicks anyways. Plus, what’s the media gonna say when the Knicks cut or stretch Melo and he hooks up with Cleveland and plays in the finals?

    Phil’s too dumb to do this, but announce to the media that the team is REBUILDING around KP and Willie (you know, All-NBA rookies the past 2 years).

    Go to Melo’s camp quietly and tell him that he’s going to the bench as part of the rebuild.

    Forget the media. They hate the Knicks anyways. Plus, what’s the media gonna say when the Knicks cut or stretch Melo and he hooks up with Cleveland and plays in the finals?

    Knicks are rebuilding

    can’t imagine phil doing any favors to melo and waiving him…

    hearing a lot of talk about a “buyout”…i’m not that familiar with nba “buyouts” and how much is usually given to the player…

    we owe melo about 54 million over the next two seasons – would would be a reasonable percentage for a buyout?

    40 to 60% of what’s owed – not really sure…

    Yeah honestly that lineup is pretty good imo

    It’d be a cakewalk if we had Willy though. I’ll be interested to see how Labeyrie performs after his excellent season overseas along with Jaramaz and, of course, Frank.

    Getting Rubio for some combo of KOQ, or Lee, and/or Kuz, or a future second rounder would help so much. It would make the offense actually function as he is an excellent passer. It would upgrade the defense because Rubio is a good defender, better than any of the current PG’s on the roster (not counting Frank as I can’t compare and don’t know if he will play the 1 or 2). And, most importantly it will keep our two most important young players, WH & KP happy and engaged. This might go a long way to repair the damage done by Chief Triangle to team morale.

    This is a terrible post. Melo had his highest usage that year and was 3rd in mvp. Lol it was a team effort, I love how all of the people who hate melo try to discredit him. It discredits your opinion.

    Usage doesn’t win basketball games.

    This train really went off the rails when Phil jackson came and blew up the team. In the Woodson/D’Antoni system, Melo was really pretty good. He’s certainly had an age-related decline, but there’s no doubt that we were a good team with Melo as the centerpiece, and that the hiring of Phil is really what sent us into dumpster fire mode.

    I disagree, too, Frank. In fact, I will tell you the precise day (in my opinion) we went off the rails. It was after we lost game 3 to Indiana in the playoffs and Woodson responded by going big. And then we carried that mistaken idea into the offseason.

    Instead of realizing that stellar pick and roll play surrounded by shooters was the foundation of our success, mgmt thought it was Melo. We needed to upgrade the PG position because Felton was the weak link. Instead we focused on getting taller and made the Bargnani trade.

    In an alternate universe in which we knew what we were doing back then, we would have traded for Lowry instead of Bargnani and we probably would have been a decent team for a while.

    The Knicks went on a massive winning streak at the end of the season with no Chandler and no Wallace and a broken Down Kidd who couldn’t even contribute by playoff time. Jeez

    Chris Copeland was basically a super version of Rasheed Wallace for that stretch (minus the post defense), and Pablo Prigioni also effectively replaced Kidd’s diminished production.

    Melo had an outstanding season, don’t get me wrong. He rebounded well at the 4, and his shooting was fantastic because the offense gave him great opportunities. Then the playoffs rolled around, we abandoned everything, he and JR took turns running ISO, Copeland never played, and we were garbage.

    That was a team that truly stumbled onto something good and didn’t realize what made it good.

    I guess this is the end of the Ron Baker era- Say it isn’t so!

    I believe he’s a restricted free agent.

    That was a team that truly stumbled onto something good and didn’t realize what made it good.

    D’Antoni talked about that era a little. He said he and others knew that Melo should play the 4 and Amare should come off the bench, but Melo did not want to play the 4 and it was hard at that stage to tell Amare to come off the bench. Then after he was gone, Amare went down with injuries and it was sort of forced on the team. That’s when they had success. But I’m not sure they ever realized why they were winning.

    Chris Copeland was basically a super version of Rasheed Wallace for that stretch (minus the post defense), and Pablo Prigioni also effectively replaced Kidd’s diminished production.

    Yes bball is a team game

    had a little bit of extra time (okay, i’m just goofing off) at work today…here’s about the best article i could find on contract buyouts: https://moorebasketball.com/2016/01/19/how-it-works-the-waiver-procedure-and-contract-buyouts/

    Contract Buyouts

    Buyouts essentially solve the problem of teams having to decide between attempting to trade a terrible contract, likely giving up valuable assets in the process, or stretching a player’s full salary over a number of years with the possibility of only a slight break through the set-off right. For the most part, after contracts are entered into the terms are set. In limited circumstances, however, contract terms can be amended to facilitate a trade (i.e. waiving a trade bonus) or compensate the player more (i.e. renegotiating for a higher salary). For a buyout to be possible, teams need to be able to adjust the amount of money they owe a player. Under no circumstances may a team renegotiate a player contract for a lower salary, so the only way to reduce the amount of money owed to a player is renegotiating the guarantees/compensation protection in the contract.

    Fortunately, the NBA allows teams to reduce the amount of compensation protection for the purposes of terminating an existing contract. This is the buyout provision in the CBA. Buyouts work like this: (i) a team will request waivers as they would in the general waiver procedure, (ii) once the player clears waivers, all compensation protection on the contract will either be reduced or eliminated, and (iii) the team’s right to set-off is modified or eliminated.

    By reducing protected compensation, the amount of money owed to a player and stretched on a team’s cap sheet can be diminished significantly. This can be mutually beneficial to the team and the player.

    This can be mutually beneficial to the team and the player. A good example of this is Amar’e Stoudemire’s buyout during the 2014-15 season. Stoudemire was in the last year of his five-year $100M contract and was owed $23.4M that season (all of which was protected). The Knicks were over the luxury tax and among the worst three teams in the league (finishing the season with a 17-65 record). Stoudemire hoped to join a playoff team and potential finals contender.[8] The Knicks and Stoudemire agreed to a buyout, allowing the Knicks to waive Stoudemire and his remaining salary, negotiating the compensation protection down by $2,500,000, thereby owing him only $20,910, 988.[9] As a result, the Knicks cut their luxury tax bill almost in half, paying $8,219,912.50 in tax instead of $14,666,903.75.[10] Stoudemire then signed with the Dallas Mavericks, a team that had one of the best starts of the 2014-15 season.

    Another good example of a mutually beneficial contract buyout is the Bucks and Larry Sanders. Sanders made the decision that he did not want to play NBA basketball any longer only one year in to his 4-year, $44M contract extension. With three years remaining and $33M left, Sanders and the Bucks agreed to part ways. They negotiated the compensation protection down from $33M to $13.3M. This enabled the Bucks to stretch that money over 7 years at $1.9M on their cap sheet and Sanders to explore his passions outside of basketball.

    The reasons buyouts are relatively rare is that the player has to agree to take less money. Taking $2.5M less on a $100M contract is inconsequential compared to taking almost $20M less on a $44M contract.

    so, i would guess any “buyout” involving anthony would run us around 40 million of the 54 million owed…

    then there’s the whole salary “stretch” thing…

    trade is looking less likely every day…particularly with his high salary (plus 15% trade kicker), diminished skills and the possibility of him being waived or bought out…

    it’s starting to seem more and more likely that even if he’s off our team, anthony is gonna be on our books at around 8 million or so for the next 5 years…

    I like seeing Dominique Jones on the SL roster. Seemed like he never got a real chance in Dallas.

    Knicks should just bring over a seasoned euro pg (if they actually want to compete instead of tank).

    This Brad Wanamaker kid looks like a decent drive-and-kick guy. Has a pretty good 3-pt shot too. Efg is lower than you’d like, but he wouldn’t need to score as much over here. And he’s only 27, I believe.

    Re: Melo, just sign another sf to compete with him. If the team plays better with said forward, then Melo sits more. He can vie for his minutes like most players do.

    @ 119 – can you not buy a player out without stretching him? Why would we have to stretch him? Couldn’t we just negotiate a buyout on the amount owed for the next 2 years and then suffer the cap hit for 2 years like we would if he was on the team? Why do we have to stretch him?

    your right @122…that does seem the best way to go about it – it’s not like we need the money to sign some free agent whom will make “all the difference” for our club over the next few years anyways…

    although it would probably be less beneficial to the team – the marbury option is looking better and better…

    @122
    Because he might be uninterested in a buyout. He might want all the $ owed to him. The Knicks can stretch him without his consent and thus gain cap space for the next 2 years, but at the cost of cap space for the next 3 after that, I think.

    So, get leverage first. Tell him that he’s being benched. I think the worst option is to just release him.

    @ 123 – that’s what I’m saying. It would SUCK to buy him out and watch him go to Cleveland, play in the Finals and everyone in the media would ROAST phil, but then again that is why Phil is here, right? To take the heat and blame for everything. And it would suck giving up any dream of getting anything in return for Melo. But hey, if we bought him out now for the rest of his contract then we won’t have that money to foolishly spend on an overprice free agent. Plus, we’ll lose games if Melo is gone. As much as people hate him and think he sucks, his scoring would be missed (even if we got Rubio to help the offense flow better). So we’d get a high pick next summer and probably the summer after that. Then when his money comes off the books for good in 2 years, we’ll have our young players starting to hit their young prime and we’ll have that money from Melo to spend on a FA then. By then the narrative should change about the Knicks if we’re truly only focusing on youth and development.

    @125
    Good argument. I guess the question would be what % would Melo be willing to take in a buyout?

    Benching melo would turn us into an even bigger shit show and would not sit well in the locker room. Despite what everyone thinks of him Melo is beloved by his teammates and they’ll be on his side 100%

    @ 127 – that’s why I think a buyout would be best for all sides. Again, the media (and a lot of the fans) will absolutely ROAST Phil and The Knicks for doing it. Jowles will post a thousand times about how he told everyone not to resign him and how PJ is a joke for doing this, etc. But if we’re truly at an impasse with him and can’t get a decent return for him in a trade he will approve, a buyout is the best thing for all sides involved. I’d rather we do this now than wait till the trade deadline and deal with the negativity all season. The players, especially KP, might be hurt by it but to me it shows good faith to negotiate a buy out and I believe the sooner he is gone, the sooner we can move on and the sooner the younger players like KP will get over it.

    Get rid of Melo and get Rubio and I think KP will forget Melo was here real quick. Let’s lose games next year while developing our young players and getting more draft picks. Keep KQ and Lee if you want for veteran leadership or whatever.

    We need to trade KOQ for Rubio straight up. Just let Melo be Melo for a year and see if he opts or somebody decides to want him. Can we split his salary with Cleveland or something? I guess we can only give them our cash. Baseball you can pay people’s salaries you trade.

    mr. philmelo… if you’re basing it on the video…. then please count how many plays they run in total and go look at a box score to see how many possessions there are in a typical game…

    Um, there were about 10 set plays in the video out of the triangle set which the video captured. If that’s five percent, you’re telling me that the Warriors run 200 offensive possessions in game. Which isn’t true at all – the team with the most offensive possessions in a game is the Nets with a little over half that number (104.9).

    Hornacek doesn’t need to bench Melo and deal with all the drama that will happen.

    Let him keep his starter status but limit it to 25 MPG at most. Find a young backup SF (Lance doesn’t count) and tell the media we are rebuilding. Keep him out of the crunch time and for pete’s sake don’t draw any iso-melo after timeouts.

    This should send a clear message that things are not getting easier for him if he wants to stay without the media and locker room circus.

    @125
    Good argument. I guess the question would be what % would Melo be willing to take in a buyout?

    considering the “deal” we got in re-signing him – probably 80% or so…

    @philmelo… go look at the video again… count the number of offensive plays…. and take note that its less than 10….

    Also take note of the section dedicated to the triangle and count how many are in that one.. then take not of the next section to see if that is also the triangle….

    I never liked Melo. The trade was a bad one. That said, Melo played well for the most part during his first contract, the Knicks had a 54 win season, and the franchise made tons of money, so there was good to come out of the trade.

    It was the MMM contract that is the killer. It was a terrible idea at the time, insane to couple it with a NTC, and totally inept to try to further appease him with a “win-now” strategy.

    Potentially buying him out this summer is about the only thing that could possibly make this episode even more disastrous.

    (…no, wait, sorry, buying him out and stretching it out for 5 years. That would be the cherry on top of the shit-sundae.)

    Jordan Hill waived by the Wolves. That was definitely a highlight of the Donnie Era. On the bright side, maybe they’ll need Kyle now?

    @philmelo… go look at the video again… count the number of offensive plays…. and take note that its less than 10….

    If its more than 5 – which we know it is – then its still not 5 percent of their plays. And by the way, this video wasn’t an exhaustive look at every triangle set in that game. It was a sample of the types of sets they ran for use in a 2K game.

    “Picking talent? That ain’t [Jackson’s] strong suit, as you can tell,” Martin said. “The man gave Joakim Noah $70 million — boy can’t hit his ass with both hands. … I’m going to continue to go after Joakim Noah. That boy sucks.”

    Ol Jordan Hill was a perfectly fine pick, it was picking 8th that was brutal

    Frank
    June 25, 2009 at 9:36 pm
    From yahoo sports:

    “The New York Knicks are working hard to cut a deal with the Minnesota Timberwolves to acquire guard Ricky Rubio, a Western Conference said.

    One league GM said a deal “isn’t 100 percent,” but likely.

    wow, I didn’t realize this has been going on for 8 years

    The Knicks have been whiskey dicking this trade for Rubio since he got drafted by the Wolves in 2008. Hopefully they’re ready to actually bust a nut this summer and get him.

    Using the term whiskey dicking not long after Phil lost Jeannie Buss seems almost unfair. Almost.

    holy shit are you guys watching this Ice Cube 3 on 3 thing? it’s magical

    Wait… are they kicking it over to the TNT studio team for their usual platitude-laden “analysis” that’s broadcast for the whole live audience?

    That’s so fucking awkward.

    I guess this is the end of the Ron Baker era- Say it isn’t so!

    I also heard that Ron Baker might not be in summer league because he is a restricted free agent. I’m not sure why the two things conflict, but it seems to be a real thing that has made him decide not to play in summer league.

    that’s why I think a buyout would be best for all sides.

    I cannot let that line go.
    There is no way that dropping him benefits the Knicks in any manner shape or form. We’re a shitshow with or without Melo-drama. Do you remember what the Nuggets got for Melo when we got him? Do you? Someone will give up the farm for Melo. Just watch. And if he is miserable, he will waive his NTC.

    I cannot let that line go.
    There is no way that dropping him benefits the Knicks in any manner shape or form. We’re a shitshow with or without Melo-drama. Do you remember what the Nuggets got for Melo when we got him? Do you? Someone will give up the farm for Melo. Just watch. And if he is miserable, he will waive his NTC.

    Who? Who is going to give up the farm for Melo at this point? What does he offer that they can’t get without “giving up the farm”?

    The Clippers? They don’t have a farm at this point. CP3, Redick and Blake are on their way out, and Austin Rivers and Deandre Jordan does not a team make.

    The Cavaliers are happy to just wait for a buyout and get Melo on the cheap.

    Lakers don’t want him. The Sixers would be idiots to want him with the stage of development their team is in.

    o you remember what the Nuggets got for Melo when we got him? Do you? Someone will give up the farm for Melo. Just watch. And if he is miserable, he will waive his NTC.

    According to er, they got one solid, but not Carmelo-level player, a scrub who couldn’t even play 50 games, and nothing else.

    Seriously dude, if you think Carmelo is going to bring a serious haul for Carmelo six years and a half years after that trade, you’re delusional.

    Yeah, in that archived thread Z-Man posted yesterday, I argued that JR and Felton should have been waived instead of traded and their contracts eaten. There is a fiscally responsible benefit to paying people to go away. I believed that it was a better way to “change culture” than packaging assets with them to entice trades (which Phil Jackson obviously disagreed with me on).

    But eating Anthony’s contract is totally different, not only in size (it is an immense amount of the cap in comparison), but also in principle. What franchise pays the face of its franchise to play for another team for two years? What front office buys a guy out of a max contract that the same front office gave it?

    When SVG bought out Josh Smith, it was to correct the error of his predessessor. When the Sixers bought out Chris Webber, it was the contract he signed with another team altogether.

    If the Carmelo Anthony era in New York ends with Phil Jackson paying him $50 million to play for Cleveland because he didn’t have the nerve to take an S&T from chicago three years ago, it will be an embarrassing next two years with constant reminders of the ineptitude of the FO.

    I can’t, for the life of me, see Dolan allowing it (and for the first time ever, I say that as if it’s a good thing).

    According to er, they got one solid, but not Carmelo-level player, a scrub who couldn’t even play 50 games, and nothing else.

    Lies

    @132 that seems like the probable best case scenario. There’s no point in antagonizing a guy who’s popular with other players, that’ll just make the clusterfuck worse. Nobody wants Melo on his current contract with that 11.7 million trade kicker tacked on. Buying him out or waiving him so we can pay him to play for another team is horrible. Just play him slightly reduced minutes. Who cares. Our locker room issues aren’t going to be fixed by Melo leaving anyway since Jackson’s regime is the root of the problem.

    thrashing star players is never a good thing, you won’t be able to attract free agents
    KD did not even consider speaking to NYK because of poison administration, at least Melo wants to be in NY
    reckon unless Minny signs Rose, Rubio stays.. can’t remember how Thibs handled the Rose/Butler pairing

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