Knicks Morning News (2016.05.24)

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Tuesday's Knicks Links: Did Vogel take a dig at Jackson? (Tue, 24 May 2016 05:27:36 EST)

    Tuesday's Knicks Links: Did Vogel take a dig at Jackson?

  • [New York Times] On Pro Basketball: Draymond Green Won’t Miss Game 4 After Kicking Steven Adams (Tue, 24 May 2016 00:57:26 GMT)

    The N.B.A. fined Green and upgraded the call against him to a flagrant-2 foul but did not suspend him, a potentially critical decision in the Western Conference finals.

  • [New York Times] Raptors 105, Cavaliers 99: Raptors Tie Series and Make Cavaliers Look Mortal Again (Tue, 24 May 2016 03:42:55 GMT)

    Toronto, which got 35 points from Kyle Lowry, is now 8-2 at home in the postseason, but the series is moving back to Cleveland.

  • [New York Times] Raptors Buoyed by Biyombo (Tue, 24 May 2016 05:30:28 GMT)

    Congolese center Bismack Biyombo has gone from bit-part player to Raptors linchpin in the space of two weeks and his emergence has given Toronto a spark in their Eastern Conference final series against Cleveland.

  • [New York Times] Cavs Loss Puts LeBron’s Finals Streak in Jeopardy (Tue, 24 May 2016 05:24:28 GMT)

    LeBron James has had a standing reservation with the NBA Finals for five consecutive years but the best player of his generation is suddenly in jeopardy of seeing his remarkable streak come to an end.

  • [New York Times] Lowry, DeRozan Lead Raptors to 105-99 Win Over Cav (Tue, 24 May 2016 04:51:48 GMT)

    A series that once looked lopsided is now even.

  • [New York Times] Raptors Hold Off Cavs, Even East Finals at 2-2 (Tue, 24 May 2016 03:42:27 GMT)

    Kyle Lowry scored 35 points and DeMar DeRozan added 32 as the Toronto Raptors defeated the Cleveland Cavaliers 105-99 on Monday to tie the Eastern Conference finals at two wins each.

  • 152 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2016.05.24)”

    How long until Dolan can give Ujiri $15 million a year to build the Knicks?

    Masai won’t be able to rip off Dolan if he’s the Knicks GM. You gotta look at that.

    Masai won’t be able to rip off Dolan if he’s the Knicks GM. You gotta look at that.

    I don’t know about that. According to some, Phil Jackson has been doing exactly that at the rate of $12,000,000 per year.

    He will be able to grab guys like Biyombo and Carroll and Powell and Corey Joseph though. I think he moves on after next season. He won’t want to re sign a 32 year old Kyle Lowry or offer DeRozan the max contract he has waiting in LA and that will piss off ownership the same way ownership and he had two different visions in Denver. That’s when the Knicks will strike with an offer he cannot refuse and he will come save the franchise.

    He won’t want to re sign a 32 year old Kyle Lowry or offer DeRozan the max contract he has waiting in LA

    Let’s wait to see how true this is. I don’t think he’ll want to re-sign Lowry to a big contract, but something similar in terms of AAV to what he’s on now seems palatable. He might not offer DeRozan a max, but he can still overpay him more than anybody with the advantage of the 5th year. Pushing Cleveland in the ECF makes it very hard to walk away from him after the season.

    that will piss off ownership the same way ownership and he had two different visions in Denver

    I thought he wanted to leave because Kroenke is a penny pincher.

    So now you pessimists are back to knocking Phil The Great. You whined about him bringing back Rambis and you were wrong. You whined about him drafting KP and you were wrong. You whined about him signing Wroten and you were wrong. You should appreciate what we have. A living legend!

    I think the issue in Denver was Kroenke over-stepping (one of those “I need people to know that I’m not just the son of a rich guy, even though that actually is all that I am”), but at the same time, Toronto has given Ujiri so much freedom and he is so beloved there and they’re coming off an Eastern Conference Finals appearance and perhaps even an NBA Finals appearance, so I think he’s going to be there for quite a while longer. Sadly.

    “You whined about him signing Wroten and you were wrong.”
    I’ve been defending Wroten (perhaps irrationally) but I think that you might be getting a little ahead of yourself with this one.

    Can kp play shooting guard ?
    im not kidding, they can’t shoot over him and it would let his buddy willy start at pf Or a defensive stalwart like antetokopo if and when he gets beat of the dribble.

    We’ve seen him take his man off the dribble, he can score in transition; so it’s worth a shot in my mind because he is probably our best shooter.

    Anyone think the Pellicans would be desperate enough to get out of Asik’s contract to trade Asik+6th Pick for Lopez?

    Reminder: NBA GMs are so good at player evaluation that there are 240 guys getting paid more than Bismack Biyombo, who any doofus with an internet connection could tell you was better than that before this year.

    @ 11 – this kind of logic is weird to me. GMs make their decisions on who to sign, draft, trade, etc…not just on pure player evaluation but also on the needs of their team and their salary. Your logic assumes that every single team needed Biyombo but refused to sign him because they’re just dumb. It ignores the fact that teams might all ready have had a decent front court and needed back court help or bench production. Or that they were capped out or that they had the bird rights to their big men and could resign them while going over the cap/not dipping into their cap. Toronto had the money to sign him AND had the need to sign him.

    Sure he might be better than a certain team’s front court but that team might have had a greater need somewhere else last off season and therefore he wasn’t on their radar. Your logic is the logic of someone who is GM in a vacuum (or behind a keyboard).

    Your logic assumes that every single team needed Biyombo but refused to sign him because they’re just dumb.

    This is overstating things, but not by much.

    Or they signed Jason Smith or Kevin Seraphin or Jordan Hill for the same or more money, because those teams also needed a big who could create shitty shots and lots of spacing — especially by constantly wandering off on defense. Or the market oddly assigned Biyombo a fraction of the value of Asik, Ajinca, Koufos and Baynes. It was an odd disparity, it looked like that at the time and some people said so, and it ain’t about being naive to the complexities of team building.

    When Biz first went into the league, I liked him alot. He has proven not to have the talent to match his athleticism, even though he is in the middle of a good Ben Wallace impersonation. Maybe he just fits the roster in Toronto better and it makes him look better than he is. I’m still impressed with his play against Cleveland though. He’s balancing out Lowry and Derozan really well. On another team, he may not play as well.

    @6 Reub, for some people the grass is ALWAYS greener. Always. If Ujiri comes here some day, his honeymoon will last 2 years at most. Then…

    Meanwhile, I wonder why the delay in formalizing Hornacek’s deal?

    to keep it 100 yall are right about biyombo, in terms of evaluating his talents and recognizing his rebounding and shot blocking will always be top notch…

    … but if we signed him to the deal Toronto did (1 yr + 1 yr player option), many here would be bitching about how Phil fucked it up because “if he’s good we lose him, if he’s bad it’s a waste of 3 mil”. Granted its a better gamble than, say, Derrick Williams, given we know biyombo will always be great at some things, but i PROMISE you a LOT of people would be bitching about how there’s no point if it was 1 year deal. PROMISE!

    but if we signed him to the deal Toronto did (1 yr + 1 yr player option), many here would be bitching about how Phil fucked it up because “if he’s good we lose him, if he’s bad it’s a waste of 3 mil”. Granted its a better gamble than, say, Derrick Williams, given we know biyombo will always be great at some things, but i PROMISE you a LOT of people would be bitching about how there’s no point if it was 1 year deal. PROMISE!

    Bingo

    @17 Well, so much for the 2 year honeymoon for Ujiri. I give it 1.

    The D-Will signing went from it being a total waste of money for many to, “why didn’t Phil offer him a longer contract?” Some just don’t like the player options, and I get that.

    In all seriousness, there must be a good, sound reason why guys like Phil and Ujiri give player options. Maybe a necessity to get the deal done? Extra motivation for the player to do well?

    The thing about Biyombo (who is a flawed player) is that he had a good enough track record that some team should have been willing to offer him more than just a 1+1. He’s not some dude who had a good playoff series.

    I think player options are a way for GMs to show trust and faith in a player. We tend to think in pure dollars and years with contracts and assume all players think that way too. And yes most players want the most money for the most years most of the time. But if you’re a fringe guy like DWill or Biyombo, having a GM give you a smaller deal with a player option shows a lot of faith and maybe that makes that player try harder and also like that GM and franchise more because they are giving said player options. Its a I’ll scratch your back if you scratch mine kind of deal. The Knicks and The Raptors are both teams, for different reasons, that players might be wary of signing with. The Knicks because we’ve had 15 years of bad management. The Raptors because they are in Canada. So its wise for us (and them) to sometimes give out a player option to lure a player there. Once they get there, they hopefully realize they like it and might be more likely to stay.

    The difference for Toronto is they they are a good team. They could have doubled bizzy’s salary maybe and signed him long term or with a team option, but that would have cut into their 15/16 cap money. The Knicks otoh had no reason to consider the short term like that. Yet they did anyway.

    The thing about Biyombo (who is a flawed player) is that he had a good enough track record that some team should have been willing to offer him more than just a 1+1. He’s not some dude who had a good playoff series.

    Agree completely!! I’m just making the point that alot of people here would unreasonably bitch about the 1+1, who are currently not holding that against Ujiri in any way.

    BTW, where has the great Timofey Mozgov been in these playoffs? You know, the guy that pushed the Melo deal from awful to disastrous?

    @21 Agree,and maybe to build good will with agents, too. Most fo us here (and journalists, too) just look at numbers when trying to evaluate deals. I don’t think many (any?) of us here has actually negotiated a multi-million $ deal…

    The difference for Toronto is they they are a good team. They could have doubled bizzy’s salary maybe and signed him long term or with a team option, but that would have cut into their 15/16 cap money. The Knicks otoh had no reason to consider the short term like that. Yet they did anyway.

    Being bad or good doesn’t change the reasons to consider such a deal.

    The thing about Biyombo (who is a flawed player) is that he had a good enough track record that some team should have been willing to offer him more than just a 1+1. He’s not some dude who had a good playoff series.

    What if that’s not what he wanted? Or what if Ujiri just gambled on the guy, but didn’t really believe in him so just offered up a deal he figured Biyombo was likely to opt out of anyways?

    There’s too much we don’t know about stuff like this.

    If Bismack really wanted a 1 year deal for Kevin Seraphin money he should have been signed the first week of free agency

    Mozgov got hurt.

    Where did you hear that? He played in the Hawks series. I thought I read that the team is down on him.

    Maybe he wanted a lot more than that but was getting nowhere near it, so he signed on with a team willing to give him the 1+1 so he could retest the market in a year. Fact is, he was available for anybody to sign for awhile and yet he ended up with a $3m/year 1+1 contract, so it’s likely his demands were higher than anybody on the market was willing to meet and he chose to bet on himself even if he may have been able to get a more lucrative AAV contract for more years elsewhere in the hopes of cashing in big this summer. He won his bet.

    Maybe he wanted a lot more than that but was getting nowhere near it, so he signed on with a team willing to give him the 1+1 so he could retest the market in a year. Fact is, he was available for anybody to sign for awhile and yet he ended up with a $3m/year 1+1 contract, so it’s likely his demands were higher than anybody on the market was willing to meet and he chose to bet on himself even if he may have been able to get a more lucrative AAV contract for more years elsewhere in the hopes of cashing in big this summer. He won his bet.

    I agree that that was the most likely scenario. But said scenario is obviously a lot different for a good team than a bad team. A good team can afford to give Biyombo that contract, because they realistically intended on competing in the first year, so the first year has value to them. A bad team giving out the same contract is foolish, since they’re not competing in the first year, so the first year is valueless to them.

    That, in a nutshell, is the difference between the Biyombo and the D-Will deals (outside of the fact that Biyomobo was also more likely to be a good player).

    A good team can afford to give Biyombo that contract, because they intend on competing in the first year

    This. Although to be fair, the Knicks were trying to compete.

    @6 Reub, for some people the grass is ALWAYS greener. Always. If Ujiri comes here some day, his honeymoon will last 2 years at most. Then…

    Maybe with the average fan. If I had a GM who knew the value of a draft pick, who didn’t load the team with past-prime former “stars” (a la Nets), who didn’t trade years away for middle-of-the-road (Melo) and awful players (Bargnani), but who didn’t find immediate success (Hinkie), I’d be a very happy Knicks fan.

    Although to be fair, the Knicks were trying to compete.

    I guess I should have added the qualifier “realistically” 😉 I’ll go do that now!

    Quick hypothetical, would you trade Porzingis to the 76ers for the the 1 pick and one of their three young bigs????

    Quick hypothetical, would you trade Porzingis to the 76ers for the the 1 pick and one of their three young bigs????

    Holy shit, that’s a monster offer. I actually say no, though. I probably should say yes, but dammit, I’ve grown too attached to Porzingis. 🙂

    I don’t do that deal if I’m The Knicks bc Porzinigis has all ready proved himself to be more valuable and a better player than any of the 76ers young bigs and the draft pick. Also, I think as a GM of The Knicks you have to realize that fans are tired of having good young players traded even if its for other potentially good young players. Porzingis has all ready proven himself to be able to handle NYC and the media and has good rapport with the players on our roster (Melo, Rolo, Grant, etc). Why risk that? Also, Porzingis potentially can be better than any of those other players.

    I haven’t really followed the prospects this year, but I love what I’ve heard about Ben Simmons so far. If I could grab him and Noel’s defense, logically I think we should do it. I doubt we ever would, and I’m not sure I could really pull the trigger on letting Porzingis go, even though I’m the first to admit we way overvalue Porzingis’ potential.

    I don’t do that deal if I’m The Knicks bc Porzinigis has all ready proved himself to be more valuable and a better player than any of the 76ers young bigs and the draft pick.

    How?

    Noel and Simmons are less valuable then Porzingis?

    Choose one (1) of Noel, Okafor, Embiid, or Saric

    +

    # 1 pick.

    I think there is a combination there that may be able to launch the Knicks into long-term contention. Unfortunately, it’s hard to guess what that combination is at this point.

    It’s a darn good question, though.

    logically I think we should do it. I

    Yeah, logically it would be such a monster offer, they should take it. Logically. But it’s hard to think logically about Porzingis, as he’s the best thing this franchise has had happen to it in thirty years.

    Out of the Philly bigs, I would want Nerlens Noel. Simmons and Noel for Porzingis, yeah I think I’d probably do that.

    Simmons to me is LeBron James combined with Kevin Garnett.

    It seems pretty obvious that the Sixers’ #1 plus one of their top bigs would be better than Porzingis alone. It would also mean we could move Lopez for a good guard – and instantly we’d have the nucleus of a good/great team for years to come. But…I don’t want it to happen.

    Such is the paradox of being a fan.

    I should add that I believe Porzingis will be an all-star within two years and may even become an all-time great – based on his skill set and his mental toughness and desire to learn and improve. But Simmons and Noel…how could you say No?

    Yeah, again, logically you would have to do it. But man….I really wouldn’t want to do it. 🙂

    I’m not trading KP for anything Philly would reasonably offer.

    A bad team giving out the same contract is foolish, since they’re not competing in the first year, so the first year is valueless to them.

    The first year is a glorified, extended tryout. If the player outperforms the deal to a certain level you’re probably willing to pay up to retain their services having built some good will and rapport with them. If they aren’t so good in this cap climate, they’ll probably still opt out because there’s so much money on the table and at worst they could probably recoup the same dollars elsewhere.

    More or less, it’s a fancy way of rolling over cap space while getting a chance at a player that intrigues you and maybe currying some favor with the guy’s agent.

    That question is a thinly veiled way to prove that several of us have grown to like-like KP in that way. The more interesting question may be if forced to do it (and I think any objective GM would), which big would you pick? I think I’d be in the minority, but I’d take Embiid.

    I’d take Embiid too. Noel might take a leap this year, but his ceiling really doesn’t look like “franchise player.” Okafor is horrible and I’d be surprised if the Sixers didn’t shop him before the rest of the league catches on.

    Okafor is horrible and I’d be surprised if the Sixers didn’t shop him before the rest of the league catches on.

    I liked Okafor prior to the draft, but I never really understood what the purpose of drafting him was for a team that wanted to run, use a lot of high PNR in halfcourt and drag screens in transition, shoot a lot of 3s and switch a bunch defensively. Nothing Okafor is good at matches up with any of that.

    If I had to pick one of the three I’d probably roll the dice on Embiid, but I’d rather just keep Porzingis.

    Embiid has already missed two seasons with injuries to the same foot. No thanks.

    Not gonna happen, guys. Why even? I mean, Porzingis has a chance of being the first home-grown 2-way superstar since Ewing. Embiid’s foot is made of glass, Noel can’t shoot, and Okafor is a long way from good.

    All of the Philly players have serious downside. What’s Porzingis’s downside? Injury? He’s certainly no more of an injury risk than Simmons, et. al. What’s his upside? All-time great? Pretty much.

    BTW, I like Ingram way better than Simmons.

    Keep KP. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, and all that. He’s talented, marketable and likable. Being a Euro might open some doors, too (like in getting Hernangomez over here this year).

    Embiid would be a huge risk. Noel is more of a sure thing, but he’s a bit limited. He and the #1 would be mighty tempting, but I still say no.

    BTW, I like Ingram way better than Simmons.

    Simmons is more likely to become a superstar, but I think Ingram has that type of ceiling while also being an easy fit on virtually any roster given his ability to shoot and potentially swing between both the 3 and 4. Simmons requires a bit more work to make the roster fit around him and to maximize his talents to the fullest.

    Now way you trade KP for that. NO WAY.

    We have draft picks after this year. We have KP and Rolo and cap space this summer and next. And eventually in about 3 years when Melo’s contract is up we’ll have his cap space to reload and build around KP, Willy, Grant and the future draft picks we have the next 3 seasons. There’s no need for us to make a trade like that. KP is the shit and he’s OURS.

    I think we should keep KP in that trade. KP is still a project but the floor is of a good player already, and he will likely improve with time. How likely is that we get more than that with that offer?

    Simmons might as well be the next Beasly/Derrick Williams and Embiid might be the next Oden. Okafor also projected to be a fantastic player out of college and ended up being so-so (although he still can improve a lot).

    I think that if you factor the risk, the value is about equal; but chemistry/fandom/stability tips the scales, and we should keep KP in that scenario.

    Now way you trade KP for that. NO WAY.

    We have draft picks after this year. We have KP and Rolo and cap space this summer and next. And eventually in about 3 years when Melo’s contract is up we’ll have his cap space to reload and build around KP, Willy, Grant and the future draft picks we have the next 3 seasons. There’s no need for us to make a trade like that. KP is the shit and he’s OURS.

    Yeah but like the #1 pick and the rights to Noel and Embiid are with the Sixers so like they could give the Knicks some of those things and then Porzingis could be with the Sixers and the Knicks could have some of those things.

    Saric could turn out to be the best of the bunch. If he was in this draft, he’d be top 3 according to some analysts.

    That question is a thinly veiled way to prove that several of us have grown to like-like KP in that way. The more interesting question may be if forced to do it (and I think any objective GM would), which big would you pick? I think I’d be in the minority, but I’d take Embiid.

    So much this. Anybody trying to justify rejecting the offer on any rational grounds is straight up lying to themselves. And that’s okay! We all lie to ourselves a bit when we’re in love! But c’mon now.You’re not thinking with your heads here.

    So much this. Anybody trying to justify rejecting the offer on any rational grounds is straight up lying to themselves. And that’s okay! We all lie to ourselves a bit when we’re in love! But c’mon now.You’re not thinking with your heads here.

    Not really. Some people prefer actual good players in place of things that may turn in to actual good players but carry the risk of not currently being actual good players.

    Saric could turn out to be the best of the bunch. If he was in this draft, he’d be top 3 according to some analysts.

    A 22 year old Croatian that’s been plying his trade in Turkey would be a top-3 pick? Who are these analysts? They clearly don’t view the top of the draft the same way NBA teams do.

    Draymond Green is losing his rootability points with his “I’m never going to be careful” statement from today. Kicking a guy in the nuts twice and then acting arrogantly? He sure lost me.

    A 22 year old Croatian that’s been plying his trade in Turkey would be a top-3 pick? Who are these analysts? They clearly don’t view the top of the draft the same way NBA teams do.

    People that don’t want to spend 3 years waiting for the 19 years old Croatian Dragon Bender to come to the US?

    Some people prefer actual good players

    Porzingis might end up a franchise player, but let’s not act like he’s Towns or Jokic or Drummond or Kawhi or Kevin Love — those players had great rookie seasons. Porzingis did not.

    Porzingis might end up a franchise player, but let’s not act like he’s Towns or Jokic or Drummond or Kawhi or Kevin Love — those players had great rookie seasons. Porzingis did not.

    If you don’t think KP had a great rookie season that’s your problem.

    People that don’t want to spend 3 years waiting for the 19 years old Croatian Dragon Bender to come to the US?

    Literally no team in the top-3 of the draft is taking a 22 year old. Hasheem Thabeet was the last 21 year old to go that early and that was in 2009.

    Porzingis might end up a franchise player, but let’s not act like he’s Towns or Jokic or Drummond or Kawhi or Kevin Love — those players had great rookie seasons. Porzingis did not.

    Rookie seasons aside, we should all hope and pray that Zinger ends up being a better player than Andre Drummond or Kevin Love.

    “Simmons to me is LeBron James combined with Kevin Garnett.”
    He’s a cross between one guy who is a top 20 all-timer and another who might be the best of all time? Do you think that maybe this might be over-hyping Simmons just a tiny bit?

    Porzingis might end up a franchise player, but let’s not act like he’s Towns or Jokic or Drummond or Kawhi or Kevin Love — those players had great rookie seasons. Porzingis did not.

    Porzingis has not had a rookie season as good as those, but he has had a good one; and he was considered more of a project than those. Perhaps he improves more than those players, perhaps not.

    There is uncertainty in both porzingis and the #1 pick and Embiid. But the floor of Porzingis is a fine player, very nice fit for every team.

    Literally no team in the top-3 of the draft is taking a 22 year old. Hasheem Thabeet was the last 21 year old to go that early and that was in 2009.

    Kris Dunn and Buddy Hield are both 22 and are possibilities for #3 this year.

    Hasheem Thabeet was the last 21 year old to go that early and that was in 2009.

    Oladipo was 21.

    Rookie seasons aside, we should all hope and pray that Zinger ends up being a better player than Andre Drummond or Kevin Love.

    Offensive Rating
    2013-14 NBA 121.2 (4)

    Defensive Rating
    2015-16 NBA 98.0 (6)

    Defensive Win Shares
    2014-15 NBA 4.3 (8)
    2015-16 NBA 5.5 (4)

    Offensive Rebound Pct
    2013-14 NBA 17.5 (1)
    2014-15 NBA 18.3 (1)
    2015-16 NBA 15.6 (2)

    Defensive Rebound Pct
    2013-14 NBA 27.7 (9)
    2014-15 NBA 30.1 (3)
    2015-16 NBA 34.2 (1)

    Total Rebound Pct
    2013-14 NBA 22.3 (1)
    2014-15 NBA 24.0 (2)
    2015-16 NBA 24.5 (1)

    Blech!

    re: Love

    Defensive Rebound Pct
    2008-09 NBA 27.3 (9)
    2009-10 NBA 28.6 (5)
    2010-11 NBA 34.2 (2)
    2011-12 NBA 26.4 (4)
    2013-14 NBA 29.5 (3)
    2014-15 NBA 26.3 (10)
    2015-16 NBA 28.4 (8)
    Active 29.1 (2)
    Career NBA 29.1 (3)
    Career 29.1 (4)

    Total Rebound Pct
    2008-09 NBA 21.0 (3)
    2009-10 NBA 21.5 (4)
    2010-11 NBA 23.6 (2)
    2011-12 NBA 19.0 (4)
    Active 19.8 (3)
    Career NBA 19.8 (6)
    Career 19.8 (6)

    Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
    2010-11 NBA .210 (9)
    2011-12 NBA .223 (7)
    2013-14 NBA .245 (4)
    Active .182 (9)
    Career NBA .182 (30)
    Career .182 (32)

    Box Plus/Minus
    2011-12 NBA 4.5 (10)
    2013-14 NBA 8.4 (3)
    Career NBA 3.2 (55)
    Career 3.2 (56)

    Ewwie!

    Kris Dunn and Buddy Hield are both 22 and are possibilities for #3 this year.

    I’ll believe it when I see it. Teams at the top of the draft consistently value upside over current production which is why they take younger players. This year might be different if Boston keeps the pick because they are already a playoff team.

    Oladipo was 21.

    My bad. So 2 guys in the last 8 drafts that were 21 when drafted, the rest younger and none of them 22.

    I can handle the debates on Phil and Wrotten, but anyone who says a bad word about KP should be permanently banned. He’s Jeter with 3 pt range

    Drummond and Love are really good players. Don’t think either of the guys has the two-way potential KP does.

    I can handle the debates on Phil and Wrotten, but anyone who says a bad word about KP should be permanently banned. He’s Jeter with 3 pt range

    I understood the ban threats when I was being a dick, but I’ve never been threatened with a ban for being right.

    Don’t think either of the guys has the two-way potential KP does.

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    When you’re dealing with 20 year olds potential matters. I know it’s hard for you to comprehend that.

    Jeez, Jowles, calm the fuck down. I wasn’t implying that Love and Drummond haven’t had good careers, only that we need Porzingis to be better if he’s truly the transcendent franchise player we’re hoping he is.

    But thank you for the reams of data.

    When you’re dealing with 20 year olds potential matters. I know it’s hard for you to comprehend that.

    Not really. Some people prefer actual good players in place of things that may turn in to actual good players but carry the risk of not currently being actual good players.

    When potential is the argument in Porzingis’ favor potential matters, but when it’s the argument against him take the sure thing. This is why I said this wasn’t about thinking rationally.

    It certainly sounded like Porzingis would be a disappointment if he didn’t surpass the careers of an all-time great rebounder and a guy who looked like an undisputed NBA superstar center in his first couple of seasons.

    He’s a cross between one guy who is a top 20 all-timer and another who might be the best of all time? Do you think that maybe this might be over-hyping Simmons just a tiny bit?

    I’m very high on Simmons, who screams “can’t miss” prospect to me. Simmons is routinely compared to LeBron, and for good reason: if you look at his scouting report, it is uncannily similar to what LeBron’s was at the same age:

    Strengths: Point guard passing skills and handle in a power forward body, incredible court vision, elite athleticism, unstoppable in the open floor
    Weaknesses: Jump shot still a work in progress but is not awful– shot .333 from 3PT in NCAA

    That sure sounds a lot like a young LBJ.

    The Kevin Garnett part of it comes from the fact that Simmons is a better rebounder than LeBron, and in fact is a ridiculously good rebounder. He averaged 13.5 rebounds per 40 as an 18-year old in the SEC! He’s 6’10” with long arms and huge hands, and he has both the spatial awareness and the tenacious attitude you need to have to be a great rebounder. This is a guy who should be able to grab 10+ rebounds per game in the NBA. So sure, maybe it’s hyperbole to suggest his upside is a LeBron/Garnett hybrid, but honestly that’s what I see.

    Simmons also has all the intangibles you want: level-headed kid, extremely competitive, team-oriented, plays hard and smart, team leader. He’s as blue-chip a prospect as you get.

    “Draymond Green is losing his rootability points with his “I’m never going to be careful” statement from today. Kicking a guy in the nuts twice and then acting arrogantly? He sure lost me.”

    Idk of you guys listen to Bomani Jones, but he always bemoans the fact that the Warriors are actually a pretty hateable team, but they are loved in the mainstream for some reason.

    I actually think it’s a Steph and Klay unconscious racial/clean cut thing as they are mixed/light skinned clean cut and it’s easier for people to like. They are absolutely huge dicks on and off the court. From the moving screens on every play, to the constant taunting of Steph and Draymond

    The downside risk for Porzingis (barring injury) is that he never develops into an efficient scorer. Both Towns and Jokic have already done it. Among big men with 500 minutes played and a usage of at least 16, KP was 38th in the NBA. Towns and Jokic were 11th and 13th. I watch college ball and I didn’t bother reading much about the top prospects, but if this Simmons kid or the guy from Duke are a generational talent + you can get Noel or Embiid you’d certainly have to give it a lot of thought. Kristaps showed enough last year that I’m pretty confident he’ll be a good NBA player, but he’s got a ways to go to become Dirk with defense.

    The Warriors are pretty aggravating on the court, but I think it’s essentially impossible for a team that good to not be dickish.

    When potential is the argument in Porzingis’ favor potential matters, but when it’s the argument against him take the sure thing. This is why I said this wasn’t about thinking rationally.

    He is currently a good player. He has the potential to become even better. I’m thinking very rationally.

    Simmons also has all the intangibles you want: level-headed kid, extremely competitive, team-oriented, plays hard and smart, team leader. He’s as blue-chip a prospect as you get.

    Intangibles are his biggest weakness. His effort level noticeably dropped in games LSU got behind and even more when they lost games in conference that made them a long shot to get to the tournament.

    His talent is real, but high intangibles isn’t something that’s in the plus column for him.

    Strengths: Point guard passing skills and handle in a power forward body, incredible court vision, elite athleticism, unstoppable in the open floor

    I don’t believe he has PG type handle, but he definitely has an elite handle for his position.

    The athleticism thing is weird to me. I’ve watched Simmons a lot and he never stood out to me as a particularly explosive athlete, but it’s always listed as a big strength of his, so it’s more likely that he makes it look easy.

    Lavor I think he’s athletic in the Lamar Odom freak 6’10 guy way. Not the in the Lebron freak athlete 6’8 guy

    Ben Simmons is way worse on defense than Lebron though and I’m pretty sure he was a worse shooter than Lebron was initially

    Still think you take him first in this draft and build your team around a poor mans Lebron

    I mean I hate to pick a fight w the master but, THCJ, you did what you accuse everyone else of doing all the time. You cherry picked Love’s stats. On DREB% you went all the way though this season and then did not use the same sample for OREB% TREB% and WS/48. Could that have anything to do with the fact that those stats dropped for Love massively after the dates you left off? He’s still a good rebounder and a good player. He’s no longer a star player statistically or otherwise.

    Lavor I think he’s athletic in the Lamar Odom freak 6’10 guy way. Not the in the Lebron freak athlete 6’8 guy

    Yeah, that’s who I think he’s closest to. Lamar turned himself in to an extremely valuable NBA player on 2 championship teams, but he probably didn’t fully maximize his talent. Simmons is probably cut in that mold, but may reach the levels Odom never quite reached.

    You guys are interpolating mid-20’s LeBron skills on 19-year old LeBron. LeBron was not a lockdown defender at age 19 and was not a good shooter either.

    I actually think it’s a Steph and Klay unconscious racial/clean cut thing as they are mixed/light skinned clean cut and it’s easier for people to like. They are absolutely huge dicks on and off the court.

    Steph and Clay are dicks off the court? I don’t read the tabloids, but, in the grand scheme of dickish off-court behavior by basketball players, I find it hard to believe these guys are even in the same stratosphere as the real dicks. (And Draymond, too, off-court, is a charismatic and like able guy, active in the community, and pretty devoid of controversy. He’s just a great competitor on the court, and, sometimes, that comes across as dickish, a la Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, etc…)

    Could that have anything to do with the fact that those stats dropped for Love massively after the dates you left off? He’s still a good rebounder and a good player. He’s no longer a star player statistically or otherwise.

    I just copied from B-R the years that he was a dominant player. I totally agree that he’s dropped off since joining the Cavs, but his career numbers are really impressive. Even if he’s peaked and will never return to that form (which is likely), you hope that a player you draft at any slot becomes a player as good as Kevin Love was during his peak years. He played some really outstanding basketball.

    Does anyone think we’ll start seeing shooters valued more in the draft seeing as the NBA is currently being dominated by Klay and Curry?

    He’s just a great competitor on the court, and, sometimes, that comes across as dickish, a la Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, etc…)

    I was right with you up until here

    Does anyone think we’ll start seeing shooters valued more in the draft seeing as the NBA is currently being dominated by Klay and Curry?

    Already happening right?

    Does anyone think we’ll start seeing shooters valued more in the draft seeing as the NBA is currently being dominated by Klay and Curry?

    Already happening right?

    I suppose I’m wondering if they’re still undervalued, even if they’re valued more.

    The romantics here are not the ones who would not trade KP for the #1 pick and either a serious injury risk or one dimensional defensive center. The romantics (or maybe addicted gamblers) are the ones who want to do this because the #1 pick will turn out to be a hybrid of LeBron James and whomever. Those are the dreamers. Hey, the dream might pan out, but that’s even more romantic a notion than KP, who is already pretty good for his age and loaded with talent and intangibles, might become a star.

    We got a 7’3″ all-rookie NBA player who’ll be 21 next year. Yeah, let’s trade him for a ? and a draft pick.

    lavor postell for GM!

    @96 – well, a nice picture of a guy with his wife and kid proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he’s not an asshole. Kind of like how a single cherry picked stat proves how great/awful a player is…

    @100 I think pretty much anyone ever photographed has a few where he/she is smiling and looks friendly. Like almost every picture ever of Stalin!
    🙂

    People are seriously underrating Noel’s impact on defense. As is, KP is not a superstar. He’s an inefficient shooter who can rebound and is above average on defense.

    The Kevin Garnett part of it comes from the fact that Simmons is a better rebounder than LeBron, and in fact is a ridiculously good rebounder. He averaged 13.5 rebounds per 40 as an 18-year old in the SEC!

    Not disputing Simmons’s rebounding skills, but the SEC is not that good of a basketball conference overall. Take those numbers with a grain of salt.

    Intangibles are his biggest weakness.

    I’ve heard rumors about effort and coachability, but nothing so bad it’d turn me off in this particular draft. He’ll probably be a very good player! But he’s not coming to the Knicks so I hope not that good..

    Still think you take him first in this draft and build your team around a poor mans Lebron

    I would be more than happy with a poor man’s LeBron on our team ha ha. Maybe if we think of him as LeBron Lite or generic/off brand LeBron?

    Noel is 21 and a really, really gnarly defensive player. If Philly is smart they just keep him, trade Okafor for a point guard and just start kicking the crap out of everybody in a couple of years.

    Not disputing Simmons’s rebounding skills, but the SEC is not that good of a basketball conference overall. Take those numbers with a grain of salt.

    The SEC isn’t a powerhouse conference, but it’s not a chump conference either. Simmons pulled in 388 rebounds last year. The guy in second place had 300. He led the SEC in defensive rebounds by a mile and was second in offensive rebounds. He was hands down the best rebounder in the conference.

    Dude can rebound.

    @107. Agreed. I live in SEC land. Yeah, it is down quite a bit these days, but still pretty solid. Simmons is a heckuva talent. He can rebound.

    @96 @92

    Right. Steph is always pushing his family and religion in your face. He is that guy. But on the court, jerk behavior. Draymond and Bogut are jerks on and off the court. Klay is the only real bland one lol

    The problem with Noel is he’s pretty close to getting paid big money. On a rookie contract he’s great, if you have to max him out- not so much. I’d might take Saric over him or Embiid (too much of an injury risk)- He’ll be getting rookie scale for a nice chunk of what should be his prime.

    That Philly package (#1 + a big) is really intriguing, not for the Knicks so much, but you have to figure there are a lot of teams that would trade a young and somewhat established guard for that package. Oladipo? Bledsoe? Isaiah Thomas? Kemba Walker? Reggie Jackson? Jimmy Butler? McCollum? Rodney Hood? Rubio?

    It seems like Philly is ripe for scoring a great haul from, and some team (not the Knicks) is going to win big.

    Demar Derozan took a thousand practice shots until 1 AM the night before game 4. Max him, Phil!

    Just made some damn tasty crab cakes y’all.

    Kevin Pelton’s projection system has Fred VanVleet as the #1 prospect (mostly because it thinks some of Simmons production is unsustainable b/c it doesn’t know he’s a freak). Do people think he’s even getting drafted in the first round? I know Phil generally doesn’t like little guards, but he’d be worth a punt if we could get him in the second

    @102 — you really don’t have a sense of humor, do you?

    Maybe I’m just so used to stupid opinions on this site that I can’t discern satire from earnestness.

    ; )

    Some people think that any opinion that’s not their’s is a stupid opinion.

    Some people think that any opinion that’s not their’s is a stupid opinion.

    I don’t think your’s is a stupid opinion’s but I just think that mine’s is better

    My biggest takeaway from this series is that Durant normally punts on defense a hell of a lot more than I thought

    The Warriors do a lot of dumb shit on offense. They shoot way too early in the shot clock, they attack in transition when they don’t have the numbers, and they turn it over on sloppy passes. It’s like watching Bad JR Smith: The Musical sometimes.

    right on cue, Mo Speights throws away a transition opportunity and then they cough it up with 15 seconds left on the shot clock on the following possession

    Someone just tweeted that RWB screamed to Donovan to get Kanter the fuck out of the game and he complied

    Donovan had to text Adam Silver to make sure it was ok for ratings first

    dude makes the basketball look so tiny, I can barely palm it

    So will the Warriors losing in the WCF taint last years championship? I think so. All of those who openly questioned it last year will only grow louder. This is the first tough test and they are failing spectacularly

    Wonder if Dray is nursing some sort of injury. He’s been utter shit the last 3 halves

    @129 I can’t see that. Flags fly forever. In five years, no one will remember the injury histories of the other West playoff teams.

    I still feel the 1997 Bulls title is tainted cause they got to play the Heat in the Conference Finals and not the Knicks.

    This game is unreal.

    Running high PNR with Roberson as the roll man is a really weird yet effective thing. Space around him with ibaka at the 5 and KD at the 4.

    Didn’t some prominent posters here claim that Westbrook was way overrated because he wasn’t efficient?

    Man. Golden State has to get their shit together in Game 5. They have been playing like JR Smith is their coach.

    More importantly, they absolutely have to stop giving up 2nd and 3rd chance opportunities to OKC. That is a sure fire way to lose if you can’t grab rebounds.

    Westbrook won’t be leaving OKC after they win a championship this season.

    The Warriors are such a great half court team that I hate how stupid they play when they are losing. They don’t challenge Westbrook and Durant on defense.

    Vanvleet isn’t even projected to be drafted by the looks of it. Would gladly take a flier.

    Is the Pelton article behind a paywall? And are there any other good draft projections that aren’t behind one?

    Now I understand why Phil hasn’t signed Hornacek yet…. he’s waiting to see if Kerr gets fired 🙂

    It’s not just that GS is losing, they are getting their asses kicked in every way imaginable. Obviously if they come back it would be amazing, but I don’t see it.

    RIP the gimmicky small lineup BS. #GSW73-9OVERRATED!

    It’s not just that GS is losing, they are getting their asses kicked in every way imaginable. Obviously if they come back it would be amazing, but I don’t see it.

    RIP the gimmicky small lineup BS. #GSW73-9OVERRATED!

    No rebounds…. no ringz !

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