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Sunday, May 26, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2017.11.15)

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ Enes Kanter defending his teammates and the rim
    (Tuesday, November 14, 2017 7:49:52 PM)

    LeBron James took a parting shot at the Knicks on Tuesday morning. And once again, Knicks center Enes Kanter stepped up to reject it.

  • [NYPost] Tim Hardaway Jr. proving he’s worth $71 million to Knicks
    (Tuesday, November 14, 2017 10:21:23 PM)

    The Knicks could’ve done worse with their cap space last July. If Phil Jackson were still around, he would have been spent it all on aging point guard George Hill to run the triangle. Instead, acting general manager Steve Mills, before his promotion to full-time president, gave it to Tim Hardaway Jr. — a four-year,…

  • [NYPost] Knicks are loving their offense without Phil Jackson
    (Tuesday, November 14, 2017 1:54:31 PM)

    LeBron James paid a backhanded compliment to Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek for his newfangled, high-speed offense that’s not the triangle. And Hornacek didn’t tip-toe around the issue any longer, that former president Phil Jackson’s methodical system offense has been completely scuttled, though scouts say they still run some triangle actions on post-ups. “We’re not running…

  • [NYPost] Kanter, Porzingis smack down LeBron in NY ‘King’ feud
    (Tuesday, November 14, 2017 10:37:59 AM)

    Knicks center Enes Kanter was at it again Tuesday, swatting with gusto another bold proclamation from LeBron James. One day after leading the Cavaliers to a stirring fourth-quarter comeback, James posted a photo of himself on the Garden floor on Instagram declaring he’s “King of New York” with the caption “You’re welcome .. (crown emoji…

  • [NYPost] Knicks’ emerging star came up a lot bigger than Jeff Hornacek
    (Tuesday, November 14, 2017 6:28:07 AM)

    While Kristaps Porzingis is the face of the franchise, center Enes Kanter is now the heart and soul of the franchise. Hence, Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek’s decision to bench Kanter for the final 3:18 was the wrong one with right intentions. In a conundrum, Hornacek put in Lance Thomas over Kanter to combat Cleveland’s smallball,…

  • [ESPN] Porzingis: Knicks more confident in offense
    (Tuesday, November 14, 2017 9:47:42 PM)

    Porzingis: Knicks more confident in offense

  • [ESPN] Kanter to LeBron: You’re not the king of N.Y.
    (Tuesday, November 14, 2017 2:51:45 PM)

    Kanter to LeBron: You’re not the king of N.Y.

  • [SNY Knicks] GEICO SportsNite: Knicks’ new beef with LeBron
    (Tuesday, November 14, 2017 11:35:27 PM)

    Enes Kanter discusses standing up for his teammates after hearing some of the controversial statements that were made by LeBron James.

  • [SNY Knicks] Daily News Live: Can the Knicks learn from a blown lead?
    (Tuesday, November 14, 2017 5:36:48 PM)

    The DNL panel discusses how the Knicks can learn from Monday night’s game against Cleveland, where they blew a 23-point lead in the fourth.

  • [SNY Knicks] Athletic Appetites with Larry Johnson
    (Tuesday, November 14, 2017 5:30:52 PM)

    SNY’s Michelle Yu cooks fried chicken and waffles with former Knicks forward Larry Johnson.

  • [SNY Knicks] Kanter fires back at LeBron’s ‘King of New York’ claim
    (Tuesday, November 14, 2017 1:20:18 PM)

    After a heated game at Madison Square Garden on Monday, Cavaliers SF LeBron James took to Instagram to declare himself “King of New York” following a 104-101 win.

  • [SNY Knicks] Ntilikina doesn’t back down from LeBron James at The Garden
    (Tuesday, November 14, 2017 9:53:25 AM)

    Knicks rookie PG Frank Ntilikina and Cavaliers star SF LeBron James got into it at The Garden on Monday.

  • [NYTimes] Celtics 109, Nets 102: A Masked Kyrie Irving Leads Celtics Past Nets
    (Wednesday, November 15, 2017 4:43:53 AM)

    After sustaining a facial fracture, Irving wore a mask against the Nets and brought back fond memories of past success in similar circumstances.

  • [NYTimes] Sid Catlett, 69, Star of a Classic High School Basketball Game, Dies
    (Wednesday, November 15, 2017 1:26:46 AM)

    In 1965 he led his school against the team led by Lew Alcindor, soon to be known as Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and ended its 71-game winning streak.

  • [NYTimes] On Pro Basketball: Watching a Loss to the Cavs, but Seeing a Bright Future for the Knicks
    (Tuesday, November 14, 2017 11:32:47 PM)

    Cal Ramsey, a former player and broadcaster, has observed six decades of Knicks basketball, and he likes what he sees in Kristaps Porzingis and Frank Ntilikina.

  • [NYTimes] Madison Square Garden Is Seeking to Sell the Liberty
    (Tuesday, November 14, 2017 11:01:37 PM)

    Madison Square Garden Company, which also owns the Knicks and the Rangers, has owned Liberty since the founding of the W.N.B.A. in 1997.

  • [NYTimes] How Trump Helped Liberate U.C.L.A. ‘Knuckleheads’ From China
    (Wednesday, November 15, 2017 3:40:12 AM)

    The American president had appealed to his Chinese counterpart, Xi Jinping, in the case of the three members of a university basketball team accused of shoplifting.

  • [NYTimes] Cavaliers 104, Knicks 101: Cavaliers Erase 23-Point Lead to Beat Feisty Knicks
    (Tuesday, November 14, 2017 1:57:30 PM)

    The Knicks’ Frank Ntilikina and Enes Kanter scuffled with LeBron James in the first half. James then put the Cavs on his back late in the game to secure the win.

  • [NYDN] Respect Kanter for toughness, but Knicks need to close out games
    (Tuesday, November 14, 2017 2:40:19 PM)

    LeBron James beat the Knicks this week as easily and as often as a turnstile jumper beats a subway fare.

  • [NYDN] LeBron James anoints himself king of New York in Instagram post
    (Tuesday, November 14, 2017 2:03:34 PM)

    LeBron James is still in a New York state of mind, and the King isn’t ready to relinquish his crown, either.

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    87 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.11.15)

    1. alsep73

      Frank vs Mitchell tonight. Hoping Mitchell doesn’t go off like Monk did. Could really use at least a couple of days off from the media’s Guards The Knicks Should’ve Drafted Instead narrative.

    2. Brian Cronin

      I like Mitchell well enough, but yeah, it is absolutely hilarious how he is the walking embodiment of how pervasive the “pointz” narrative can be in the media. Being a “go to scorer” in the NBA as a rookie is seen as more impressive than being a team player, even if you’re not actually good at being a go to scorer!

    3. english_knick

      Let me have a crack at this probability thing as it’s bothering me.

      Probabilities are about the future, not the past. A genuinely independent event with a probabilistic outcome does not have its probability altered by the outcomes of an equivalent event in the past. If someone comes to you with a dime and asks the probability of flipping a tail you (rightly) don’t ask what it’s flipping history is as a coin. You say 50-50.

      Does this mean the law of averages is false? No. But the thing to understand about it is that it’s about reversion to the mean in future samples. I.e i flip a coin 100 times and get 80 tails. What should I expect in the next 100? Roughly 50-50. This means that once I have a sample of 200 flips I would expect the average to have got closer to 50-50 then the 80-20 I observed first.

    4. english_knick

      People sometimes assume that mean ‘reversion’ means mean ‘correction’ – the gamblers fallacy. This sort of assumes physics wants any sample to fit the probability curve – in the example above, the next 100 flips want to go 80-20 the other way so that the sample sums to 50-50. This is the fallacy. Over VERY big samples they sum to the same thing – the mean number of tails will be half. But if you start with 80 tails this will pollute the mean for a LONG time afterward – you’ll have an average of more than half tails after hundreds more flips.

    5. english_knick

      In any case, it’s hard to apply all this to sports as Brian says. Take Drummond. Is he actually a 40% FT shooter today looking forward? Or has he changed something structurally that explains his higher rate this season? If the latter, and if the change is sustainable, we shouldn’t assume his next 100 FTs to miss 60% of the time. But we probably don’t have enough of a sample yet to know if he’s changed something or just been very, very lucky so far this year.

    6. Farfa

      “Over VERY big samples they sum to the same thing – the mean number of tails will be half.”

      Yeah, law of averages in sport means almost nothing. Like, how can you know the real expected value of Lance Thomas 3pt shot?

      EDIT: yeah, english_knick said it better than me

    7. Farfa

      @2

      Right now I wouldn’t trade Frank with any other rookie guard. His team-oriented vision and tremendous defense are such gifts. Let all the other teams take turns at showcasing their brick-shooting talents.

    8. ess-dog

      Shooting is generally the easiest thing to fix. Look at Gordon this year or Brook Lopez. So I’m not worried about Frank’s shooting. Court vision and defensive intensity are probably the hardest things to “teach” so yeah, I’m happy with what Frank brings to the table and I’m glad we got him. Look at Smith, for instance. History has told us that it’s unlikely he’ll suddenly be able to find a desire to play tough defense.

    9. Bruno Almeida

      The only thing that still worries me about Frank in comparison to his peers is his handle. The shooting will be fine, even if it takes time, he has good form and good height / length to get shots off.

      He needs to work a lot on his handle though. His passing skills and IQ are obviously very high, and having a great handle would turn him into a much bigger threat in the passing game even by getting to better positions to find open men. I’m confident still that the kid is a super hard worker and has his head on the right place to do it.

    10. 2FOR18, understands math

      A non-Knicks fan friend of mine is killing me about Smith Jr. being great and Knicks should have taken him blah blah. First he sends me a video of Smith’s dunk – the one where no one guarded him. yippee.
      Then I get a “27PTZ!! ha ha” text.

      So since he’s on my fantasy team I can quickly check his numbers, and I see 27 pts on 10/23 from the field, 2 assists, 6 turnovers and no steals. Then I check to see who he guarded, and I see patty Mills with 19 pts on 13 shots and 1 turnover.

      But all he wants to hear about are points and dunks and how Smith looks the part.
      It’s like having a political discussion with someone who gets all of their news from MSNBC or Fox News.

    11. Bruno Almeida

      @10

      And another stat your friend might not be interested about, a big L to take the Mavs to 2-13.

      Who knew, maybe a lot of points and dunks with inefficient as hell shooting, triple turnovers than assists and no defense leads to losses! At least he’s been a very capable tank commander, I’ll be so pissed if Doncic falls on Cuban’s lap.

    12. lavor postell

      Yesterday’s Smith line is exactly why scouting on points scored and box scores are not enough. He had 20 on 20 shots with the aforementioned crappy defense, 2 assists and 6 turnovers before getting 7 points in the last minute or so with the Spurs just nursing the lead and winding down the clock. I guess, if you’re not watching that’s impressive.

      I like that Smith can get a shot whenever he wants. That’s a talent IMO, but it’s one that requires you to eventually become very efficient for it to be valuable. I think he’ll improve in this area, but I’m not sure to what extent.

      Mainly I haven’t been impressed with his ability to run an offense.

    13. Bruno Almeida

      @13

      I agree. If he ever gets to let’s say, Damian Lillard sort of efficiency he’ll be a valuable player, but even Lillard has issues as a player that traditional stats don’t convey (mainly he doesn’t give a single fuck about defense).

    14. swiftandabundant

      The other thing about pointz heavy players is that I feel like its so much easier to get in their heads in high pressure situations or games. A dude like Frank will ALWAYS have his defense to fall back on and being good on defense annoys the hell out of the opposing team’s players that you’re guarding. If a dude like Smith has a guy like Frank on him and Frank is making him take bad shots and causing turnovers, etc…then Smith has nothing else he can focus on to still make a positive contribution to the game. Whereas with Frank, he can rely on his defense to still make a positive impact on the team. Shooting and handle are also way easier to improve than defense, passing, basketball IQ. He just has to put in the time with shooting and practicing his handle, which he will.

    15. DRed

      Frank’s been better, but his team would have more losses if his super genius coach refused to play the best player on the roster

    16. djphan

      i think you guys are just being overly critical of smith…. the standards set forth for him are just not equal to what you guys are giving frank…. yes he’s scoring inefficiently but he’s a young pg.. and volume scoring at this age is a good indicator of future success because efficiency almost always gets better…. defense also gets better…

      he is putting up 19 5 and 5 per 36… as a 19yo.. 2p fg at .450+… that pace would be put him ahead of guys like wall, rose, westbrook, conley… and really only behind kyrie’s first year(yes cp3 also)…

      yes i understand frank is a knick and obv a lot of you guys are emotionally attached to him… but there’s an obv lack of perspective here…. you guys are criticizing things like shooting efficiency and turnovers when frank has been probably as bad if not worse in those areas….

    17. lavor postell

      I need to start clipping some of DSJ’s defensive “efforts”. His lack of fucks given on that end is impressive even for a rookie. Carlisle is totally full of shit when he says it’s about effort with Noel when he trots out DSJ for 30 plus a night without question. Only reason Noel isn’t playing is because he didn’t sign that extension this summer and the organization no longer has any vested interest in him.

      @17

      Frank has been much better than Smith in decision making in terms of assists and turnovers. That’s clear in the numbers. He hasn’t been as efficient a shooter as him and that’s something which almost everybody has acknowleded he needs to improve upon. The fact is he also isn’t jacking shots up and is able to positively contribute in other ways. So far Smith’s primary contributions come through scoring, so the fact he isn’t efficient while nearly on 30 USG is a bigger issue.

    18. lavor postell

      @14

      Dame’s my favorite player in the league, but I agree. His lack of defensive fucks given hurts him a lot as far as translating his offensive production into wins. My comparison for DSJ’s ceiling prior to the draft was Lillard/Kyrie, which is obviously a very effective player in the NBA, so it’s not exactly hate to point out the flaws of those players as well.

      My thinking is also that the way to combat these super effective offensive schemes with small ball is just collecting as many switchable, athletic perimeter defenders as you can with size. I believe Frank is more in line with what will be required moving forward in that capacity and if he start scoring and improves his ball handling then he gives us a massive advantage in what we can do defensively 1-3.

      This was not something I necessarily felt about him before the draft. I preferred Monk to him and DSJ behind all of them. But through the early part of the season around the league and watching a lot of what the Spurs have been doing in Parker and Kawhi’s absence I do think Frank’s value will be clearer over time.

    19. swiftandabundant

      I’m not critical of DSJ at all just the lame sports media and twitterverse who feel the need to laugh at The Knicks for picking Frank over DSJ. It makes no sense to me. There were a lot of guards picked before DSJ. And The Knicks and Mavs aren’t even rivals. Plus the Knicks are actually decent and Frank has been a part of their recent success.

      It would be one thing of Frank was just sucking it up completely and we were also 2-10. But we’re over 500. And if you look at what this team needed most…defense on the perimeter…..the choice made sense for us regardless of the Triangle or whatever.

    20. chrisk06811

      Right now I wouldn’t trade Frank with any other rookie guard

      Farfa, I love Frank too, but I would literally drive him to Philly for Ben Simmons.

    21. Bruno Almeida

      I mean, I’m comparing his ceiling to Damian Lillard, who’s a pretty damn good player and would be a lot of value for the 9th pick in a strong draft. No hate for the guy. Knicks fans are attached to the Ntilikina pick because we have seen every minute he has played and have seen he has issues (handle, shooting, aggressiveness) that get talked about all the time, while the media, etc watches Smith’s highlights and take those as clear cut indication of who the better pick was. Both have strengths and issues.
      Both are about as different as players as they can be while still playing the same position. I value what Frank contributes more than what Smith contributes, specially for this team.

    22. johnno

      “I like that Smith can get a shot whenever he wants.”
      Mike D’Antoni once said about Nate Robinson — “The good thing about Nate is that he can get off a shot whenever he wants. The bad thing about Nate is that he can get off a shot whenever he wants.”

    23. djphan

      efficiency is not really important for young guards… or even most basketball players in general… that almost always improves as you get older as long as you pass certain thresholds…. yes it impacts wins and losses now but in terms of long term development you almost prefer your guards to be higher usage sacrificing efficiency… vs low usage high efficiency….

      higher usage usually means they are actively trying to expand what works for them on the court and what doesn’t…. then as their body matures and they get smarter they start executing on the things that they couldn’t do before and avoid the things that didn’t work… that then translates to high usage at higher efficiency… there are obv issues with low usage players trying to expand their games while maintaining eff because they either don’t know how to or physically can’t…. this has been discussed multiple times in the past and i would think it would be obvious now but i guess we just forget about that when talking about these two players…..

      so the fact that frank has really low usage and even lower efficiency than even smith… i would think that would be a pretty huge thing to consider… if you prefer your pg’s to be lower usage like calderon or rubio then ok… that’s fine… but you can’t seriously consider that these guys are actually better than wall, rose, conley or westbrook…. and that’s basically what you guys are saying….

    24. ess-dog

      Point guards take much longer to develop, so it’s not about comparing efficiency or pointz with regard to Smith/Frank. If Frank had/wanted the green light, he could easily get 20 points a game on 20 shots.

      I don’t think Dennis will be a zero in the league, but he probably tops out somewhere in the Teague/Marbury/Reggie Jackson range of player: athletic, penetrating pg that can get to the rim and get assists by dumping the ball when guys converge on him at the hole. If you’re a great athlete, it works pretty well until you lose your athleticism (example: Derrick Rose). So if you lose your athleticism and are 6 ft tall and can’t shoot threes at 40% and are an “okay” passer… are you still needed?
      Frank does a lot of savvy things and plays very good D already. Maybe he tops out as Avery Bradley? Rubio? Mike Conley? Maybe Chris Paul? There’s no way of knowing yet. But I’ve seen enough of the D. Rose types. I like what Frank brings to the table.

    25. Bruno Almeida

      How is efficiency not important? You take Calderon and Rubio and then compare them to Wall and Westbrook and Rose, who really does not even belong in the conversation.

      Gary Payton started his career with a 14.9 usage rate, had about 27 in his prime. Jason Kidd had between 19 and 17 (close to Frank’s 16 now). Rondo? 16.5 rookie year, 19.2 career. Chris Paul? 22 rookie year, 24 for his career. Deron Williams, 20 rookie year, 23.5 career.

      If you use only Rubio and Calderon comparing to Westbrook and Wall yes, your argument seems fairly nice.

      We had the PG who could get a shot anytime with low efficiency and get to the rim past defenders last year. Spoiler alert, we were fucking terrible.

    26. Bruno Almeida

      Even Mike Conley averaged about 18 usage in his first FOUR years before upping it to about between 22 and 26.

    27. d-mar

      Speaking of inefficiency, Marcus Smart’s shooting percentage currently stands at .281. And he averages over 30 minutes per game.

      And somehow Boston is still 13-2.

    28. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @29

      It’s because all of Kyrie, Al, and Tatum have been playing superstar basketball and Tatum’s been shooting 50% from 3 to counteract Smarts horrific offense

      Tatum being this good makes me so mad

    29. lavor postell

      so the fact that frank has really low usage and even lower efficiency than even smith… i would think that would be a pretty huge thing to consider… if you prefer your pg’s to be lower usage like calderon or rubio then ok… that’s fine… but you can’t seriously consider that these guys are actually better than wall, rose, conley or westbrook…. and that’s basically what you guys are saying….

      This is not what anybody’s saying and comparing Frank to Calderon and Rubio 12 games in is as ridiculous as comparing DSJ to Wall and Westbrook in that same timeframe. Both guys have holes in their games and need to make major strides moving forward. You seem to believe his high usage indicates a higher ceiling moving forward, others think Frank’s size and being able to contribute without scoring much show he has more upside.

      Discussing things like this isn’t hate.

    30. kevin5318

      DSJr already had fluid buildup in his surgically repaired knee and still doesn’t land properly on dunks.

    31. djphan

      efficiency is important up to a certain threshold….

      payton… kidd…. rondo…. 2p fg% of .459… .433 and .432 respectively… frank’s currently at .405…

      so let’s vet this out fully…. here’s the top list of guards who have less than 20% usg and less than .420 2pfg:
      chris duhon
      kirk hinrich
      marcus smart
      mugsy bogues
      greg anthony
      ricky rubio
      anthony carter
      steve blake
      tj ford

      Here’s the greater than 22% usg and greater than .450 2p fg%:
      chris paul
      steve francis
      damian lillard
      andre miller
      derrick rose
      brandon roy
      stephen curry
      dwyane wade
      sherman douglas
      kyrie irving
      marcus thornton

      this has about 80 results but you have guys like erick murdock and darrel armstrong coming in at the median whereas the other list has over 300 results and guys like dante exum(surprise)/ aaron harrison and other folks who had really short careers right around where ntilikina currently sits…. scott skiles is the only notable past the first 100 …

      plug it into bref… if you don’t like my parameters offer some of your own…

    32. TheOakmanCometh

      There’s no point in comparing DSJ and Frank after a month in the league. They’re both living up to their scouting reports and it’s impossible to know which one will be better long term.

      But the DSJ hype has been over the top. He fell so far in the draft because teams were afraid of his horrible defensive effort, his attitude, his injury history, and his penchant for putting up good stats on underperforming teams. So far he’s put in horrible defensive effort and his team is underperforming. So that already ticks two of the negative boxes. There are no surprises here.

    33. Hubert

      All this talk about whether Smith should be a Knick is pretty funny consider it’s quite possible both he and Frank are better than Ball & Fultz.

      I think Smith and Frank are both going to be excellent players in completely different ways. I’m happy with Frank.

    34. TheOakmanCometh

      DSJ could really be Marbury 2.o. Great scorer, good passer, leading teams that never make the playoffs. That’s not a useless player. But it’s far from a star.

      Personally, I’m excited for the Dennis Smith Jr. statue that will be built in front of the Shanxi Zhongyu Brave Dragons arena in 20 years.

    35. Bruno Almeida

      @35

      So what I’m getting is that he can either be Chris Duhon or Chris Paul if he ups his numbers a bit? Seems fine to me.

      It’s an extremely small sample size, and that really does not account for age. Chris Duhon’s first year in the league he was 22, Frank is 19 and would be a college freshman now.

      You’re trying to make this a definite thing based on super small sample sizes and very circumstantial evidence, ignoring that defense exists (and three point shooting for that matter, which makes ts% and efg% much more useful metrics than 2p%), while also assuming Smith Jr. will be more Wall than Reggie Jackson.

      Honestly, it really does seem like a concerted attempt to put Frank down much more than people trying to put Smith down.

    36. Bruno Almeida

      Circumstantial evidence again: the list of players who averaged at least 8.3 assists with at least 3.5 steals per 36 in a season as a 19 year old looks like this:

      Frank Ntilikina.

    37. djphan

      So what I’m getting is that he can either be Chris Duhon or Chris Paul if he ups his numbers a bit? Seems fine to me.

      no you’re not getting it obviously….

      i’m not the one making this a definitive thing…. everyone in this thread is making judgments on both smith and frank… and the rhetoric… based on what has happened on the court so far…. is off base to way off base…. if you’re making a point in time observation you should use the data that you have up to that point in time… that’s all i’m doing…

      yes points matter…. efficiency less so to an extent…. defense matters… but matters less… esp with young players and esp at this stage of their development…. what we’ve seen so far and what their future holds there will obviously be a gap…. but that doesn’t mean you can’t make reasonable guesses at what that gap is….

      and this whole thread has had ppl going gaga over frank… esp compared to smith… there are ppl who go into threads unprovoked at the first sign of smith struggling… when he’s NOT EVEN ON THE TEAM…

      so wtf are you talking about?

    38. Bruno Almeida

      People like Frank; they dislike Smith and people saying that Smith is going to be so much better than Frank. What’s the issue with this? Its a Knicks blog, I’m pretty sure Mavs blogs have a lot of people hating on Frank and praising Smith. People get angry about the hype in Smith and come here to vent, aren’t they allowed to do it?

      And points > efficiency > defense in this stage of player development? Really? Come on dude. Coincidentally you put everything that Smith has done better (usage, points) as more important than everything Ntilkina has done better (assists, defense), and the guys pointing Smith’s flaws are the trolls who hate him? You can think points are the most important measure of player potential, just don’t expect people to agree with you on a message board where we have discussed the fact that points are an overrated metric for so many years.

    39. Hubert

      Putting aside the fact that, at 1, Philadelphia could have chosen whoever they wanted, what choice would you have rather had:

      – your pick of Fultz & Ball
      – your pick of Frank & Dennis Smith

      I think we lucked out.

      And I think people are being too hard on DS jr here. If he were a Knick I’d be excited about his scoring ability and elite athleticism. There’s no need to put him down to up our guy.

    40. geo

      was all the probability discussion in reference to korver going 0 for 5 and then smoking us in the 4th…

      yeah, once the cavs started hitting their threes – they didn’t stop…

      utah +4 with the over/under set at 204…

      if i was a betting type person – i’d take the knicks and go for the under…

      frank sure is fun to root for and project all kinds of success…who knows – hopefully he can just stay healthy and continue getting used to the nba…

      he’s definitely fun to watch play…if we can figure out a way to come up with a good young sf this season = fan heaven…

      not sure how many games frank played a year in france – but, i’m guessing it wasn’t an 82 game schedule…can’t wait to see how our rook is still holding up this spring…

    41. Donnie Walsh

      I’m not critical of DSJ at all just the lame sports media and twitterverse who feel the need to laugh at The Knicks for picking Frank over DSJ.

      This happens routinely. In 2009 Brandon Jennings scored 55 and all we heard in NY was how the Knicks blew landing their point guard of the future.

      (…turns out, Jennings was the Knicks point guard of the future, but it didn’t go down quite the way the critics had envisioned it:)

    42. Ntilakilla

      DSJ was two made dunks during Spurs garbage time away from missing that arbitrary .450% 2fg mark Djphan posted.

      But if we’re going to start posting small sample size projections, lets go all out here and recognize this freakishness from Frank.

      (Min. 20 MPG) Number of teenagers in NBA history to average even half as many steals per 36 as @FrankLikina – 0Number of teenagers to average more assists per 36 than Ntilikina- 0#Knicks pic.twitter.com/v6rYOTqjcu— Michael Nania (@Michael_Nania) November 14, 2017

    43. Brian Cronin

      It’s hard to judge Fultz when he’s clearly playing with a fucked up shoulder. Ball, meanwhile, has been pretty good for a rookie pg, with a lot of his value coming from the defensive end.

    44. Ntilakilla

      Ball, meanwhile, has been pretty good for a rookie pg, with a lot of his value coming from the defensive end.

      It is eery how similar he and Frank have been so far this season.

    45. Bruno Almeida

      It’s kinda fun to shit on Ball because Lavar and his horrible shooting, but he has been valuable. The Lakers have very little talent, Ingram is still shooting sub. 500 ts% (while leading the team in minutes) and they are 6-8. If given the choice to redo the draft I’m pretty sure I’d pick Ball 1st still, maybe give some consideration to Tatum. He has a very nice assist to turnover ratio, has been a pretty damn good rebounder and has the team’s best DBPM (behind Bogut who played only 60 minutes).

      It’s definitely too early to dismiss Fultz but he’s going to take a lot more time to show this kind of promising signs.

    46. Bruno Almeida

      The comparisons to Michael Carter Williams are also very unfair to me. MCW shot a .490 ts% in his “breakout” sophomore year in Syracuse and there were no indications at all he would ever turn out to be a decent shooter. Lonzo clearly has mechanic issues and other stuff to go through but he was a .670 ts% shooter in college, mainly because of great shot selection.

    47. geo

      it’s a little tougher these days to question philly with the success of embiid and simmons – but, fultz had some pretty clear physical issues in college…

      it’s like they look for these guys out of college to stash in the trainers room for a year or so…

    48. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Something I’ve noticed about DBPM is that it seems to rate defensive rebounding very highly in its calculation—I’m not sure about the math but I’ve noticed a trend where elite DRBs tend to have higher DBPMs relative to their defensive reputation (Jokic, Lonzo, Westbrook, etc.) I get that DRB is in fact a part of defense but I just can’t imagine a scenario in which Jokic can be considered a plus defensive player given all of his other deficiencies on that end. Seems like a flaw of the model unless I’m missing something. But measuring defense through the box score will always be a fraught endeavor, probably.

    49. nicos

      It’s hard to give Ball too much credit on defense when a lot of the time they’re hiding him on that end and giving KCP or Clarkson the tougher assignments.

    50. Brian Cronin

      It is eery how similar he and Frank have been so far this season.

      Right? It definitely is surprising. I liked both of them a lot, but I didn’t think that their NBA experience would be so similar.

    51. Ntilakilla

      I liked both of them a lot, but I didn’t think that their NBA experience would be so similar.

      Yeah, right now there’s a convergence in their games I didn’t expect either. I didn’t foresee Frank being this good of a distributor or Ball that good of a defender. Its funny, since they were the two point guards whose games I was keenest on in the draft.

    52. djphan

      re bruno: ppl are allowed to have opinions… but if it’s offbase then i don’t care if you’re a knick or the president… ppl are gonna say something about it…. if you want some safe space to cheer on frank.. then there’s room here for that but there are ppl who are going to disagree…

      i have never ever brought up smith after the draft unless someone(s) was criticizing the whole pointzzz, no d or mavs are losing meme’s that like to circulate here…. which.. frankly.. are pretty weak… you can only handwave your way through so many arguments….

      re: donnie walsh – you know brandon jennings was not that bad until he tore his achilles…. and as a knick fan i would think you would remember that ppl were pining for him because we picked jordan hill instead….

    53. JK47

      I’ve had my fill of mediocre-efficiency chuckers who play bullshit defense. I’ve seen plenty of that shit at this point. I know it’s a Knick tradition to overvalue players like this but let’s try something new.

    54. Bruno Almeida

      @56

      How the hell is discussing the media / fans infatuation with volume scorers, discussing the fact that the Mavs are 2-13 in a season they weren’t supposed to tank or that defense is important a “meme”? How is believing defense, good shooting efficiency and results on the court are important a “weak” argument? You’re basically describing every advanced stats argument ever done in this site as weak.

    55. Grocer

      yes points matter…. efficiency less so to an extent…. defense matters… but matters less

      This seems exactly backwards when you’re talking about rookies. I expect rookies to be inefficient at first when adjusting to the NBA, and I don’t look for big pts right away because of that adjustment and because players can learn to be better shooters, it’s not exactly unknown. But if you don’t have any defense at all you’ll probably never have any. It’s not ‘all about effort’ on d, it’s about talent, knowledge, skill. PGs often figure out how to fit into an offense as they grow. If they start out shit on d they tend to stay shit on d. I wish the defensive metrics were better so we could kill this whole ‘effort’ business. That’s just lazy announcer talk.

    56. thenoblefacehumper

      djphan, I’m trying to understand the point you’re making. Are you saying that high usage is inherently a good thing for rookies/young players? Obviously a lot of players who had high usage rates as rookies go on to be great players, as some of the best players in the game are in this group for obvious reasons. Is there any reason to think high usage in and of itself is a good thing for a rookie though?

    57. djphan

      things aren’t that black and white as maybe my initial statement implied… there are plenty of examples of players succeeding in a number of ways….

      but points do actually matter in the sense if you score a lot of points… you’re probably going to be pretty good… yes just getting points and not doing so efficiently is not ideal but efficiency is something that does tend to get better… not always but usually… larry hughes not withstanding….

      rookie pg’s who scored greater than 15pts per 36 and ts less than 50:
      brandon jennings
      chucky atkins
      larry hughes
      isiah thomas
      john wall
      russell westbrook
      michael carter-williams
      erick murdock
      kemba walker

      and the whole inefficiency argument is a bit ridiculous when frank’s been A LOT worse so far on that front… and overall shooting efficiency is probably the most volatile to go off of so you can’t really draw firm conclusions on that front this early either way since it relies heavily on 3p shooting… that doesn’t actually apply for inside scoring though which is why i always point to 2p fg%…

      and defense… well… how many top pg’s have great defensive reps? cp3? lowry…. aaaaand that’s it…..

      these are not some wild theories … if you don’t like my parameters then offer some of your own that rely on samples larger than 20 players….

    58. 2FOR18, understands math

      And all I’m saying is that it’s annoying that I’m hearing, in this day and age, about what a breakout game Smith had last night – a night in which, out of the 31 possessions he did something, he missed 13 shots and had 6 turnovers, and managed 2 assists as a PG.
      Sure, one day he may be great, but that is a shitty, losing style of basketball he played last night and to this point, and it’s not being a hater to note that in the face of all the OMGZ DID YOU SEE THAT DUNK 27 POINTS!!!! bullshit.

    59. nicos

      My only problem with the whole Smith vs. Frank thing is that the pro Frank crowd seem to think that all his weaknesses are easily rectifiable whereas Smith’s weaknesses are sure-fire evidence that he’s permanently flawed. They’re both less than a month into their rookie seasons- let’s give it a little time to play itself out.

    60. 2FOR18, understands math

      “and the whole inefficiency argument is a bit ridiculous when frank’s been A LOT worse so far on that front…”

      You keep saying this, yet it’s not true. If player A shoots 40% on 15 shots a game, and player B shoots 36% on 5 shots per game, which player is hurting your team more?

    61. 2FOR18, understands math

      And here’s 64 burning strawmen. Show me one post where anybody said either of those things.

    62. nicos

      Frank has a TS% of .408 shooting pretty much nothing but open shots- I think it’s fair to say he’s got real shooting issues at the moment. I’m sure his shooting will improve but it’s going to have to improve a ton for it not to be an issue going forward- especially when you consider how rarely he gets to the line. Teams are going to challenge him to shoot the ball like Cleveland did in the fourth quarter and he’s going to need to do a whole lot better than he’s currently doing if he’s going to be successful going forward.

    63. Ntilakilla

      and the whole inefficiency argument is a bit ridiculous when frank’s been A LOT worse so far on that front

      Is he though? Dennis Smith’s TS% is .484 while Ntilikina’s is .409. Ntililkina also has a better AST ratio (37.6) to TO ratio (17.3) than DSJ’s AST ratio (20.5) to TO ratio (13.9).

    64. DRed

      If player A shoots 40% on 15 shots a game, and player B shoots 36% on 5 shots per game, which player is hurting your team more?

      I remember arguing about this with Jon Abbey years ago after a particularly bad Melo night. Abbey essentially argued it was better to go 2-20 than 2-2

    65. nicos

      And here’s 64 burning strawmen. Show me one post where anybody said either of those things.

      There have been a ton of “I’ve seen this movie before” posts- meaning low efficiency, no defense, plays the wrong way, etc… as if Smith is doomed to those things while with Frank it’s shooting is the easiest thing to improve, his lack of driving is just rookie jitters, etc…

    66. DRed

      I suspect having a guard defenses know they can sag off of does hurt the rest of the offense in a way not easily captured by individual stats, but missing lots of shots is not a good thing

    67. GoNyGoNyGo

      One burning question that I came away with after the Cavs game (and I’ve had the same issue for years) is “How does one deal with LeBron when he decides to take over?”

      Looking at the Knicks, what could they have done to win that game? Are we missing a specific type of player?

    68. djphan

      @thenoblefacejumper – yes usage is good for rookies… obviously there’s going to be wild variance amongst this group…. there’s guys like steve francis… who yes was a good to great player during his peak… and then you have guys like mcw…. but more often than not high usage is an ok filter in that it weeds out the folks who can’t even attempt the shots the high usage guys do….. whereas if you’re low usage it’s difficult to differentiate someone like kawhi leonard and a guy like landry fields… which is obvious now but not so obvious back then….

      and lower usage players can develop but they also need some minimal ability in other areas to be able to do that… someone like kawhi and yes kidd and payton also… if you have a shot distribution and def numbers like steve novak you aren’t going to put up westbrook numbers the following year….

      and that’s reason for optimism for frank… the high steals rate is a big part of that… but the scoring is equally as big if not bigger…. and ppl here are overweighting the defense(steals)… and basically apologizing for him on the other side of the ball… which is fine.. but it’s just not a realistic or accurate look at his game….

    69. Bruno Almeida

      @71

      There are those. But a vast majority of people have said many times they’ll both take time. Hell, djphan is crapping on me and I said in this very same thread that the kid could be the new Lillard if he gets better efficiency wise.

      But just dismissing assists, turnovers, defensive effort and etc as less indicative of a promising player than points is doing the same thing you’re complaining about, just the other way around.

    70. lavor postell

      What’s not realistic or accurate is dismissing his assist rate which was 6th among all players in the league per 100 possessions that have played over 150 minutes, last I checked, and creating the idea that he’s just a defense guy right now. No, he’s not scoring and he’ll need to do that to be a high quality point guard, but he’s not a zero offensively either.

    71. Bruno Almeida

      It’s not 2003 anymore folks, points can’t possibly be the one most important thing to evaluate anything in the NBA. Calling Steve Francis a good to great NBA player in his prime is something I really never thought I would have read in 2017.

    72. DRed

      High assists, high turnovers, no shooting-from what I’ve seen Frank is probably the best PG on the Knicks and very promising, but I doubt he’s positive on offense (compared to a league average pg) yet.

      Steve Francis had a couple good to very good seasons before injuries and insanity got to him

    73. djphan

      I remember arguing about this with Jon Abbey years ago after a particularly bad Melo night. Abbey essentially argued it was better to go 2-20 than 2-2

      so dred or abbey kind of summed it up there….

      if you observe the universe of box scores and pick out the guys who go 2 for 20(or 18)…. those guys will tend to have higher peaks and longer careers than the universe of guys who just go 2 for 2… it’s the difference between john starks and greg anthony basically…

      obviously going 2 for 18 is really really bad for that particular game…. i was never arguing that…. but the scope of these discussions have always been on what that means for the future….

    74. geo

      One burning question that I came away with after the Cavs game (and I’ve had the same issue for years) is “How does one deal with LeBron when he decides to take over?”

      Looking at the Knicks, what could they have done to win that game? Are we missing a specific type of player?

      if kyle could have kept his hands to himself a little better in the third – possibly a different outcome to the game…

      horny just needed to yank jack quicker and get lance out there faster…plus – the cavs just got super hot from three…it happens…

      i think the major difference in the future though will be how kp reacts to old man lebron’s pressure on him…

    75. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Well, Steve Francis was a really good player in his prime. He was an excellent rebounder and had good volume on .56%TS in an era when the TS’ were lower in general. Let’s not let his disastrous Knicks tenure distract from his very real productivity in his prime.

    76. Bruno Almeida

      @79

      Francis had one good season, his second in the league, when he had his highest ts (.564), shot well from 3 (39%) and had ws48 (.184). He averaged .533 ts% for his career and was actually better in New York than in Houston or Orlando in that department. Outside of that, he was a flaming ball of mediocrity and chucking and most of his sorta impressive per game numbers are a result of averaging 40+ minutes. And that’s not accounting for how much he gave back on defense, where he was never the most dedicated or talented guy and was widely known to not care at all. Not even close to great for my standards.

    77. ptmilo

      Well, Steve Francis was a really good player in his prime. He was an excellent rebounder and had good volume on .56%TS in an era when the TS’ were lower in general. Let’s not let his disastrous Knicks tenure distract from his very real productivity in his prime.

      here’s a little known fact about stevie francis (mostly bc most advanced stats weren’t really around yet): he had a 19.3 VORP in the first four years of his career. here is the complete list of players who have done better (VORP only exists meaningfully from the mid 70s):

      David Robinson
      Jordan
      Lebron
      CP3
      Barkley
      Bird
      Magic
      Grant Hill
      Duncan
      Shaq
      Hakeem

      …pretty fucking good list.

    78. 2FOR18, understands math

      “One burning question that I came away with after the Cavs game (and I’ve had the same issue for years) is “How does one deal with LeBron when he decides to take over?”

      Looking at the Knicks, what could they have done to win that game? Are we missing a specific type of player?”

      Rodman.

      But we seriously need some toughness. When Enes Kanter is your toughest player…

    79. lavor postell

      We need a combo forward that can space out, defend and grab boards. Basically Covington and if I was greedy I’d ask for a little bit more off the bounce than him.

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