Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, September 21, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.07.06)

  • [NYDN] Knicks considering Rajon Rondo, but haven’t set meeting yet
    (Wednesday, July 05, 2017 9:23:57 PM)

    The Knicks reached out to Rajon Rondo but have yet to schedule a meeting with the former All-Star, a source told the Daily News.

  • [NYDN] Atlantic Division continues to improve as Knicks keep sinking
    (Wednesday, July 05, 2017 9:23:03 PM)

    This is absolutely an arms race, as Houston Rockets general manager Daryl Morey aptly called it last week.

  • [NYDN] Knicks first-round draft pick Frank Ntilikina signs contract
    (Wednesday, July 05, 2017 2:57:57 PM)

    The Knicks’ first-round draft selection Frank Ntilikina officially signed his contract, the team announced Wednesday.

  • [NYTimes] Trial Date Set for Billy Hunter’s Case Against N.B.A. Players’ Union
    (Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:53:26 PM)

    The union’s former executive director, who was fired in February 2013, is seeking at least $10.5 million in the wrongful-termination suit.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks sign first-round point guard Frank Ntilikina, seek vet help
    (Wednesday, July 05, 2017 9:20:40 PM)

    ORLANDO, Fla. — The Knicks signed a point guard Wednesday, but it was their own.

  • [NY Newsday] Kyle O’Quinn foresaw changes coming for Knicks
    (Wednesday, July 05, 2017 9:08:18 PM)

    ORLANDO, Fla. — Kyle O’Quinn didn’t seem surprised that Phil Jackson is no longer the Knicks president. O’Quinn was more shocked that his good friend and teammate Kristaps Porzingis skipped his exit interview, and didn’t necessarily agree with that move.

  • [ESPN] Sources: Knicks in touch with Rajon Rondo for Frank Ntilikina mentor role
    (Thursday, July 06, 2017 12:39:01 AM)

    Sources: Knicks in touch with Rajon Rondo for Frank Ntilikina mentor role

  • [NYPost] Knicks’ top pick signs but no point guard mentor near
    (Wednesday, July 05, 2017 7:28:28 PM)

    ORLANDO, Fla. — Frank Ntilikina signed his four-year, $18.5 million rookie-scale contract, but won’t be able to show his lottery form at the Orlando summer league. Ntilikina, who suffered a bruised knee in the decisive Game 5 of the French league finals the day after the Knicks selected him in the draft, will miss the…

  • [NYPost] Porzingis’ Knicks friend saw Phil Jackson shocker coming
    (Wednesday, July 05, 2017 4:01:43 PM)

    ORLANDO, Fla. — Though Kyle O’Quinn admitted being surprised his buddy Kristaps Porzingis skipped his exit interview with Phil Jackson in mid-April, O’Quinn said he knew something had to break on the Jackson front. Amid feuds with Porzingis and Carmelo Anthony, both of whom he had threatened to unload, Jackson was fired June 28. “It’s…

  • [NYPost] Knicks manage to lose out on Dion Waiters again
    (Wednesday, July 05, 2017 1:46:46 PM)

    ORLANDO, Fla. – The Waiters is over, and the Knicks again were empty-handed. Syracuse product Dion Waiters, whom acting president Steve Mills first pursued in 2013-14 in a trade, agreed to terms with Miami in a deal reportedly worth $52 million over four years. According to a source, the Knicks’ initial offer was for over…

  • [NYPost] Knicks’ French stash pick may piggyback way onto team
    (Wednesday, July 05, 2017 8:54:50 AM)

    ORLANDO — Louis Labeyrie, the other Knicks draft pick from France, would like to see more French spoken in the Knicks’ locker room this fall. A European stash pick in 2014, selected at No. 57, Labeyrie is making his third appearance on the Knicks’ summer-league team. After the first two summer-league stints, the Knicks didn’t…

  • [SNY Knicks] Frank Ntilikina officially signs rookie contract, won’t play in Summer League
    (Wednesday, July 05, 2017 6:37:57 PM)

    Knicks 2017 first-round draft pick Frank Ntilikina signed his four-year rookie contact, the team announced Wednesday.

  • [SNY Knicks] O’Quinn not surprised by Jackson’s departure
    (Wednesday, July 05, 2017 8:35:02 PM)

    With all of the controversy surrounding Phil Jackson, Kyle O’Quinn was not surprised the Knicks let go of the team president, he told the New York Post.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks have spoken with free agent PG Rajon Rondo
    (Wednesday, July 05, 2017 3:45:13 PM)

    Rondo is reportedly also drawing interest from the Lakers.

  • [SNY Knicks] New York Sports Today: Knicks have interest in Dion Waiters
    (Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:01:49 AM)

    The Knicks are interested in free-agent guard Dion Waiters.

  • 368 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.07.06)

    1. Frank

      I’m ok with a 1 year deal for Rondo.
      Would prob be happier with a theoretical Grievis Vasquez signing just to not have the headache of Rondo.

      Ramon Sessions? Sure! Shelvin Mack (boy he is terrible)? Sure!

      I’m mixed on Marcus Smart. Setting aside that we’d probably have to give at least 2 second rounders for him (or a protected 1st, which I would not necessarily be in favor of), there’s also the issue that he’s a restricted FA next year. I don’t think anyone would ever max out Smart, so I also don’t think he would be prohibitively expensive to keep — and cap space will prob be even more at a premium next summer, making anyone offering a huge raise to him unlikely.

      There’s no doubt he’d be the best perimeter defender we’ve had since… well, the 90s Knicks? His shooting stinks, he can’t finish at the rim, and his 3 point shooting has actually gotten worse since he entered the league… but there are some signs, like his free throw shooting (both total # of FTA and FT%) getting MUCH better over the last 2 seasons (65->77->81%) and that 2 out of his 3 seasons he’s been pretty good from corner 3 (40% -> 20% (?) -> 40%).

      I guess it depends on what sort of market he is predicted to have next summer. An elite perimeter defender who can guard 1-3 who averages about 5r/5a per 36, and who may be able to become a league-average 3 point shooter over time would be someone nice to have on the team.

      Ntilikina + Smart hounding ball handlers would be pretty awesome.

      But no to trading future 1sts unless it’s heavily protected – like 1-22 or something.

    2. Mike R

      That ny post article is ridiculous. We didn’t lose out on waiters. We got lucky Miami offered him a stupid contract. Also is there a reason or strategy why the knicks haven’t renounced Rose. Is it for a possible sign and trade?

    3. nygrec

      I feel we need to take the risk with Smart. Especially since we can get Crowder for pretty much free. KOQ is a servicable guy, but he hasn’t got any position in the 2020s Knicks. Crowder will replace him fine for now and if Smart works, we may have a core set.

    4. GoldClub

      Are you guys insane. Trading assets for Marcus Fucking Smart??? He of the worst TS% in the league???
      Fuck Boston.

    5. wetbandit

      Dotson lookin real good in summer league. 3’s from everywhere, even pulling up. Smart plays all over. 15/5/4 and we’re in the third.

      Plumlee somehow driving to the basket and knocking down free throws. Don’t know what to make of that.

      Bam lookin reaaaaaal good

    6. wetbandit

      Hayes playing well all around too. Kornet good defense too. Three blocks and just doesn’t let em get to the rim.

      Other than maybe Dotson, nothing more than end of bench stuff though.

    7. GoldClub

      Here is the trade we should do. Renounce Rose. Trade O’Quinn for Crowder + 2nd round pick.

    8. Totes McGoats

      Hayes playing well all around too

      Yesterday he played the way I envisioned him playing. I hope he sticks because he’s kinda like a poor man’s Draymond Green. Not very tall for a 4, but good strength, insane length, and decent ballhandling & shooting. I think he and Kornet were very good signings. Barry could stick as well- depending on what happens with Lee. Plumlee is making it hard for Kornet to get time on the 15 man roster though. Noah needs to retire or get stretched.

    9. lavor postell

      Stretching Noah would be stupid, impatient and reactionary. Phil gave him that contract and we have to deal with it for the time being and not by stretching it when there’s nobody we’re signing in free agency to justify such an action. I don’t want to have $8m of dead money on our cap until 2025. Fuck that.

      Dotson can really shoot and he doesn’t force the action which is rare in SL, especially for guards.

    10. ess-dog

      We should keep O’Quinn. Aside from seeming like a cool guy, he is a great mix of passing/rim protection/solid midrange.

      I don’t think we need a one-dimensional player like Smart. He’s a good final piece for a real contender. Crowder would be great for a 2nd and Plumlee, but nothing more. And Kornet needs to add 20 lbs of muscle before even thinking about going on the pro court.

      Our front court is pretty solid (especially if we can get just 10 solid minutes a night from Noah), but we need a guard rotation! I’m fine with a Sessions signing, even a year of Rondo. Maybe we can pencil in Frank as the back up pg. I think Lee sort of sucks, but I guess he can start with hopefully Dotson backing up. Ron can be our 5th guard off the bench.

      Sessions/Lee is pretty substandard, but it gives Frank/Dotson the chance to take over the starting spots. Also maybe we improve those spots through a Melo trade.

    11. thenoblefacehumper

      Smart is an extremely flawed player, but he’s got enough plus skills that I’d gladly take him on if the Celtics are giving him away. Wouldn’t even think about moving a future first (unless it was so heavily protected it was a first in name only a la what Dallas gave Philly for Noel) or Willy though.

      I still don’t understand the hostility towards Rondo on a 1 or 1 + 1 year deal. Anything more than that and I’m off board as well, but if it’s a one year deal we can always just cut him if he’s problematic in the locker room. I don’t know about y’all but I actually think it would be refreshing to have a player that hunts for assists. I just want Porzingis to play with someone who has some level of interest in getting him the ball in good spots.

    12. GoNyGoNyGo

      I don’t know what all the fuss is about signing players. We all agree that this upcoming season is one to flush down the toilet, right? If so, all we need are a handful of vets with good work ethic and a proper attitude to show the kids the right way to play. What assets do we give up? None. Let the kids play and let them suck until they don’t.

    13. MSA

      We all agree that this upcoming season is one to flush down the toilet, right?

      I think the main concern is flushing down the toilet the development of KP, Willy and Frank also.

      I’m fine with Rondo on a 1+1. I don’t buy the “assist hunting” as a bad thing.

    14. charley

      Dotson had a great game. He was a steal at 44. Remember, we got that pick in the Rose/Holiday/Rolo/Grant trade. Dotson does have a personality flaw as he mentioned in the post game interview that his dream is to play with Melo

    15. Mike Kurylo Post author

      I’ll consider Dion a referendum on whether we have got religion yet or not. Steve! Look at the Yankees! Look at everyone they DID NOT SIGN. Now, they have Judge, Sanchez, etc. Players AT THE START OF THEIR CAREERS WHO’S BEST YEARS ARE AHEAD OF THEM. We have some people like this.

      No Dion Waiters. Just let Dotson play. Who cares if he’s young. He’ll, at worst, be as good as Dion for pennies on the dollar. Sink or swim with young players, save your bullets for difference makers in FA, and draft well.

      Knicks always have to have fucking Tom Cruise.

      It’s not even Tom Cruise. It’s like they have to get John Travolta or Steven Seagal, and there’s that percentage of fans & analysts (Mike Wilbons, reubs) that’ll tell you the Knicks need a Travolta or Seagal because they are proven commodities and top flight talent.

    16. Owen

      I remember watching Bam in a game and thinking, how is this guy not the top rated player on Kentucky? He looks like a future stud in an early Ibaka kind of tier.

      Re Waiters, I am really happy we didn’t sign him. Contract seems crazy. But reading this definitely gives you a different perspective on the man. I hadn’t really read too much from the Player’s Tribune but if the stuff there is like this going to have to make it a regular stop.

      https://www.theplayerstribune.com/dion-waiters-miami-heat-nba-is-lucky/

    17. GoNyGoNyGo

      @14 – I just think that by adding Rondo, we feed the bad karma on the team. He’s not a player that will mentor a kid. He’ll be as much help to Ntilikina as Rose was to KP. Rondo is about Rondo. However, he’s a great pairing for Melo.

      Here’s something fun. Which of the two lineups do you like better? Old guys or young guys?:
      Noah, Melo,Thomas,Lee,Rondo
      Wily,KP,Kuz,Dotson,Ntilikina

      Start the first, give the second lots of minutes.

    18. Mike Kurylo Post author

      re: Dion Waiters

      I said this on twitter (but somehow can’t find it…) that Dion Waiters isn’t really a FA trying to play in the NBA, he’s a honeypot test for incompetent NBA Front Offices.

    19. Mike Kurylo Post author

      Who would you guys prefer we get to run the point?

      Chasson Randle, Frank Ntilikina, Ron Baker, and a D-Leaguer to be named later.

      That’s what Westchester is for. Find a D-League PG, and when the time comes, promote him.

    20. ptmilo

      Dotson had a great game. He was a steal at 44. Remember, we got that pick in the Rose/Holiday/Rolo/Grant trade. Dotson does have a personality flaw as he mentioned in the post game interview that his dream is to play with Melo

      just make sure your misdirection humor doesn’t cross the reubicon, “charley”

    21. MSA

      I just think that by adding Rondo, we feed the bad karma on the team. He’s not a player that will mentor a kid. He’ll be as much help to Ntilikina as Rose was to KP. Rondo is about Rondo. However, he’s a great pairing for Melo.

      Here’s something fun. Which of the two lineups do you like better? Old guys or young guys?:
      Noah, Melo,Thomas,Lee,Rondo
      Wily,KP,Kuz,Dotson,Ntilikina

      Start the first, give the second lots of minutes.

      I don’t know, Rondo is really a complicated guy. However, didn’t he had a good relationship with Chicago’s young players?

      Another cheap option could be Raul Neto from the Jazz. He had decent numbers in limited minutes last season and the Jazz have a team option this year. They don’t seem in love with him so maybe he will be available.

    22. BklnBoy

      This is where we could really use Prigs and/or Chauncey as asst. coaches or some sort of staff!

    23. Z-man

      Smart is an intangibles-type player. He clearly can’t shoot at this time, but he’s an extremely good defender and a very solid rebounder and passer for his position. He’s a lunchpail-type player. I love his hard-nosed brand of play, he can play on my team any time. I wouldn’t give up assets for him, but if he can be had on the cheap, by all means, bring him aboard.

      Let’s also keep in mind that he is about the same age as Damyean Dotson. Not fair to talk about him as a finished product.

    24. Mike Kurylo Post author

      Jokic has played with Mudiay and 34 year old Jameer Nelson his entire career, and he’s a superstar.

      I get that he’s a different player than KP and has a different skill set, but it’s not like having a decent PG should be 100% a requirement for a 7-footer who’s extremely talented to develop into a superstar.

      It’d be nice to have one, sure, but if the option is giving away an asset for one, or overpaying a mediocre veteran, I’d still say no.

      +1

    25. Mike Kurylo Post author

      Agree on Randle for now. Baker is another story. He’s an EXTREMELY high IQ player with an outstanding work ethic. He’s hopefully Jeff Hornacek 2.0 (see: Jeff Hornacek career arc). I’m not convinced that he’s a replacement level player yet.

      Not even close.

      http://bkref.com/tiny/MhkrL

    26. Totes McGoats

      We need lunch pail types around KP and Melo in that starting 5, which is why I want KOQ starting alongside KP up front. I also wouldn’t mind adding Smart if he were available cheap. He’s not the best when creating then making his own shot, but he can knock down clean looks, run an offense, and play defense. On top of that, he brings the kind of hustle and effort that young guys can learn from and emulate. If Melo gets moved, then Rondo may be a better choice because the focus then shifts to Willy & KP on offense, and I trust Rondo feeding bigs more than I trust Smart. But still..if Smart can be had for cheap- it would be stupid not to add a hard-nosed former lottery pick who’s still young enough to improve significantly at a position of need.

    27. d-mar

      A big fat NO to Marcus Smart. He gets a lot of attention because he’s “scrappy” “doesn’t back down” “gets up in opponents’grills” blah blah blah, but meanwhile hasn’t cracked a .500 TS in 3 seasons.

      I get that we can use guards that actually care on defense, but it shouldn’t come at the expense of truly atrocious shooting (which shows no signs of improving)

    28. SJK

      Saying no to Marcus Smart without knowing what we’d have to give up for him makes no sense. If the Celtics want to trade him into our cap space for a second rounder, you obviously do that. If they ask for Willy, you obviously say no.

    29. Bruno Almeida

      If the Celtics are literally giving Smart away for no compensation then for all means, get him.

      but why would they do it with the Knicks? isn’t there a franchise who would give them a protected 1st rounder for him, seeing as he’s quite overrated around the league it seems? or are the Knicks that franchise?

      how much value does he really have
      if the Celtics are willing to give him away for free anyway?

    30. DRed

      Marcus Smart can’t shoot, and guards who can’t shoot don’t have a lot of perceived value. I doubt the Celtics could get much for one year of him.

    31. fmikieo

      The folks not willing to give Baker a chance to start at the 1 amuze me as they’re willfully ignore his history as a basketball player.

      Literally, every year the man has found ways to improve his game. That literally means that you can take last season’s stats and analytics and toss it out the window.

      He is Hornachek 2.0

      Understanding his archetype, the dude is gonna be at least a sixth man caliber player this coming season, if not better. I suspect the front office (as well as competitors) recognize this potential, which is why he got a 2-year contract 12:01 am July 1st.

      The calls for veteran PG’s now literally feels like the groundhog day repeat of the call for a center last season that yielded Noah because the Knicks weren’t sure the Willy, KOQ and KP could handle the 5.

      Let’s not make the same mistake again.

    32. Zanzibar

      Celtics were willing pre-draft to trade us #3, #7, and a player for KP. They believed they could trade Crowder for the TWolves #7 pick. Of course, that ended when the Butler trade went through. But if Phil were still here he’d rightly pull the trigger on this trade: KP/KOQ for Tatum/Crowder/Brown/Smart.

      We should sign Rondo (1 year deal) AND a cheap PnR guard (vet min or 2 year 2m/year type contract). We have the money to do both. If Rondo’s a problem, you cut him. What have we lost if Sessions/Mack/Rodriguez then steps in as the starter? Baker should be playing the 2 anyway. If Rondo works out, he will be the transition to similar 1 guard Rubio in 2 years who will looking to bolt Mormonville to join Willy, Serge and KP.

    33. Z-man

      Not even close.

      http://bkref.com/tiny/MhkrL

      Really?
      In looking at the comparison, there are two glaring differences: Hornacek shot better from 2 (47.9 to 45 ) and assisted more (although also turned the ball over more.) In spite of that, their BPM and VORP scores are similarly horrendous, and while WS48 of 0.36 is clearly better than -0.001…both sucked.

      No one is saying that Baker will be as good as Hornacek, a fringe all-star, starter on a 2-time NBA finals team, and one of the great shooters of his era. What I’m saying is that if Baker’s “improvement arc” is similar to Hornacek’s, he will be a very useful player (above replacement-level) and the kind of player I love to root for. If you are offended by that comparison, how about Scott Skiles?

    34. freethrow

      what’s the thoughts on this possible trade?

      Cavaliers get:
      Carmelo Anthony

      Hawks get:
      Kevin Love

      Knicks get:
      Marco Belinelli
      2018 Minnesota first-round pick (lottery protected)

    35. stratomatic

      @17 Owen

      That article by Waiters was a GREAT read. I found it yesterday. I still didn’t want him on the Knicks at that price, but it changed my view of him.

    36. JK47

      Literally, every year the man has found ways to improve his game. That literally means that you can take last season’s stats and analytics and toss it out the window.

      That’s kind of a weird thing to say, since Baker had pretty much the exact same season as a sophomore, junior and senior in college. In fact, his efficiency got worse throughout his career

      TS%
      soph .616
      junior .568
      senior .557

      So did his eFG%:
      soph .563
      junior .534
      senior .509

      All of his other numbers remained fairly constant. He got a little bit better at defensive rebounding every year, so he gets a cookie for that. Add it all up and his WS40 over his last three years in college looks like this:
      soph .228
      junior .228
      senior .215

      This is a guy who improves so much every year and adds so much to his game every year that you have to throw his rookie year numbers out the window? That seems like a completely ludicrous statement. Ron Baker is 23. He’s older than Marcus Smart. He was sub-replacement level as a rookie. The odds are heavily against him.

    37. JK47

      Literally, every year the man has found ways to improve his game. That literally means that you can take last season’s stats and analytics and toss it out the window.

      Okay, I literally printed up Ron Baker’s literal college stats, literally crumpled up the paper, literally rolled my window down and literally threw the wadded-up ball of paper out of the literal window.

    38. stratomatic

      I want no part of Smart unless it’s for a 2nd round pick and/or cash. We could always use a young good defender on the team, but he’s so dreadful on offense he should barely be in the rotation unless it’s for a specific match up or on a team that’s so loaded with scorers they can overcome having him on the court on offense. The Knicks are going to have dearth of scorers if Rose and Melo are gone.

    39. stratomatic

      Baker is a good enough defender, rebounder, and play maker to keep around for another year to see if he can improve his shot and become a rotation player on a decent team.

      I kind of feel about him the same way I feel about Smart even though Smart is younger and a little better at most things. He’s a guy you can keep around, but you don’t want to start giving things away for him.

    40. DRed

      We could always use a young good defender on the team, but he’s so dreadful on offense he should barely be in the rotation unless it’s for a specific match up or on a team that’s so loaded with scorers they can overcome having him on the court on offense

      He just played 2400 minutes for a 53 win team that had one scorer last year.

    41. Z-man

      JK47, funny that you would post his exceptional college stats to defend the argument that he will likely always suck, conveniently leaving out his first year stats. You also left out that he went from being a non-recruited walk on to a Wooden Award finalist, then from an undrafted FA to an NBA rotation player with a guaranteed contract.

      Nobody is saying that he should be locked up in a multi-year near-max deal. But his story is very compelling and I’m thrilled that we are giving him a chance to be a rare Knicks feel-good story.

    42. JK47

      What I’m saying is that if Baker’s “improvement arc” is similar to Hornacek’s, he will be a very useful player (above replacement-level) and the kind of player I love to root for.

      You can say that about ANY PLAYER. If Cleanthony Early’s “improvement arc” was similar to Hornacek’s, he would have been a useful player. If Travis Wear’s “improvement arc” was similar to Hornacek’s he would have been a useful player too. Most guys who suck at age 23 don’t make it in the NBA.

      If you are offended by that comparison, how about Scott Skiles?

      Maybe that’s a better comparison since Skiles stunk as a 22 and 23-year old and ended up having a decent career. He was also a rookie 31 years ago, and if you have to go back 30+ years to find guys who fit your criteria, that’s sort of an “exception that proves the rule” kind of scenario. For every 23-year old player who had a negative WS48 and went on to have a decent career, there are dozens if not hundreds of guys who didn’t make it. I’m not saying it’s impossible for Baker to have a decent career, but there’s a guy in this thread saying that Baker’s FLOOR is as a sixth-man type player THIS UPCOMING SEASON. That is crazy talk. His floor is that he’s out of the league before the season ends because he can’t throw the ball into the basket at the NBA level.

    43. Z-man

      He just played 2400 minutes for a 53 win team that had one scorer last year.

      Our resident GM-in-waiting has spoken. Take heed, everyone!

    44. JK47

      JK47, funny that you would post his exceptional college stats to defend the argument that he will likely always suck, conveniently leaving out his first year stats.

      Cleanthony Early played at the same school as Ron Baker, and had very similar “exceptional stats.” Cleanthony was actually a little bit better as a senior than Ron. Having a .557 TS% in the Missouri Valley Conference as a 22-year old senior is not really all that “exceptional.”

      I hope Ron makes it, because Lord knows the Knicks need guards and wings that can play. But the love here is bordering on the irrational.

    45. stratomatic

      He just played 2400 minutes for a 53 win team that had one scorer last year.

      They also have IT. Thomas was such an incredible scorer last year he carried them on his back. They also have a couple of guys I’d consider #3 type scorers. Guys like Horford can score a bit when needed.

      When we have a guy that can score 31 points a night with a 62.5% TS% I’ll be more open to the idea that Smart wouldn’t hurt the Knicks offense. I’m worried about our offense mow with KP as the #1 and not much after that if we move Melo/Rose.

    46. GoldClub

      I don’t know what all the fuss is about signing players. We all agree that this upcoming season is one to flush down the toilet, right? If so, all we need are a handful of vets with good work ethic and a proper attitude to show the kids the right way to play. What assets do we give up? None. Let the kids play and let them suck until they don’t.

      +100 End of story

    47. Z-man

      JK, most of the guys that don’t make it do not have as compelling of a story as Baker. He’s overcome enormous odds at every level.

      I agree that the odds are stacked against him, that his floor is a high-level D-Leaguer (excuse me, G-Leaguer) and his realistic ceiling is solid backup rotation player (i.e. well below Hornacek.) Maybe I (and Hornacek) am a sentimental, nostalgic sap, but I just see something in him than differentiates him the run-of-the-mill, cup-of-coffee scrub, something in the heart and between the ears. The beauty of it for me is, we’ll get to see if it’s for real.

    48. jkhar

      I’m really not sensing a lot of Baker love, just some wishful thinking. Ron is very rootable, at least…

    49. Donnie Walsh

      Is Ian Clark not a PG option to sign? I haven’t heard his name anywhere, but I think he’s an UFA coming off a $1,000,000 contract. Better than Rondo, Rose, and the other washed up PGs we’ve been talking about. Some upside still, been playing for one of the best teams ever for the past 3 years. Am I missing something?

    50. Donnie Walsh

      most of the guys that don’t make it do not have as compelling of a story as Baker. He’s overcome enormous odds at every level.

      Maybe Baker can get himself into a Norte Dame game and get a sack just before the credits roll.

    51. danvt

      Chasson Randle, Frank Ntilikina, Ron Baker, and a D-Leaguer to be named later.

      Good enough for me. Knicks need to be less reactive. Right now we really have poor options on most things related to our roster. No difference making FA pgs. No good Melo deal or other vets.

      Hey, what’s the hurry anyway? Renounce Rose. Hold on to the cash. Let the kids play. If we play well or not it’ll be on the strength of people we have right now anyway.

      So wait for a good deal and pounce rather than try to appease casual fans and stupid pundits.

    52. ptmilo

      Okay, I literally printed up Ron Baker’s literal college stats, literally crumpled up the paper, literally rolled my window down and literally threw the wadded-up ball of paper out of the literal window.

      this is litteraly illegal

    53. swiftandabundant

      I’m gonna defend Rondo.

      In Boston at the end of the big three era, Rondo was the guy who kept that team competitive longer than it should have and also he was CONSTANTLY in trade rumors bc he was their best asset at the time. It probably irked him that he was this young PG on Boston and that they wanted to trade him even though he felt (and rightfully so at the time) that he was worth rebuilding around.

      So he eventually gets traded to Dallas. What happened there was a bad look indeed. No excusing it. All I can say is maybe he was pissed for getting traded away from Boston and maybe he just didn’t get along with the players or with Carlisle. Again, bad look.

      Then he goes to the Kings. With Cousins. I mean, are we really gonna say that Rondo was the only reason there was drama at The Kings? Its the freaking Kings. And Cousins was a notorious difficult player to have on a team.

      Then Chicago last year. Hey, they went up 2-0 against the 1 seed before he hurt his thumb. And from some accounts he got along great with the younger players (which is encouraging). And Chicago, while not the dysfunction of the Kings, has been a team in a weird chaos transition since Thibs got fired. So again any drama from there I could not one hundred percent say was all Rondo’s fault.

      So 1+1 (team option) sounds good to me. We know we’re getting at the very least a pass first PG who will get Zinger and Willie H (and Melo is he sticks around) good looks. And his defense may be overrated at this point, but he’s certainly not Rose or Calderon levels at all. And he’s not good enough to make us a playoff team, although if we keep Melo we’d probably have a shot in the East.

      I think he would help Zinger and Willie H and if there are any issues, well you just cut him by the deadline. NO big loss.

    54. Frank

      Re: Baker-
      I have some hope for him because much of his suckiness was due to what might be considered uncharacteristically bad shooting in a relatively small sample. He shot 35-38% from 3 in college and about 81% collectively from the line in 4 years at Wichita State, and then shot 26.7% from 3 and 65% from the line last year. Maybe that gets better. He definitely is an above average defender, and 4.1 rebounds and 4.5 assists/36 out of a SG is pretty reasonable.

      In terms of guys with a negative WS/48 – there is this thing called Basketball Reference where you can actually look this stuff up. If you search for all guards between 22-24 years old who played between 500-1000 minutes and had a negative WS/48, there are actually some players who ended up being reasonable pros:

      Willie Green – played 12 seasons in NBA
      Jon Barry
      Lindsey Hunter
      Devean George
      Donald Sloan
      Will Barton
      Ish Smith
      Howard Eisley
      Jim Jackson

      Overall there are only 41 players in the last 30 years that fit these criteria (including Baker).
      Out of those 41, Baker actually posted the 9th best WS/48 FWIW.
      so 9/40 ended up having reasonable careers – not the worst percentage in the world.

      if you extend to players who played 1000-2000 minutes, there are actually a lot of good/serviceable players:

      Norris Cole
      Trenton Hassell
      Deshawn Stevenson
      Troy Hudson
      Mookie Blaylock
      Dennis Hopson
      Gary Grant
      Jordan Crawford
      Rex Chapman
      Lance Stephenson
      Erick Strickland
      Allan Houston
      Antonio Daniels

      There are only 25 players who fit that criteria, and out of those 13 ended up sticking in the league for a while.

      So there’s hope yet that Ronnie may end up being at least a rotation guy.

    55. Frank

      Re: these guys with negative WS/48s –
      some of them are guys who were high draft picks and so they were going to get run anyway.

      i’d almost say it’s more impressive for an undrafted guy to get significant enough minutes to meet these criteria — either is from severe lack of talent (2016-17 Knicks waving!) or because he’s shown enough in practice despite being undrafted to warrant minutes (or both).

    56. stratomatic

      In the mean time it’s looking more and more like we scored when we drafted Damyean Dotson. Huge game today. He’s clearly going to make the team and imo will wind up being cheaper, better, and have more upside than Holiday. #BringBackPhil

    57. 2FOR18

      Scott Skiles? Is there any other white guy you want to compare Baker to? How about Steve Nash? Bob Cousy? John Stockton? Matthew Deladova?

    58. JK47

      @60

      A sizable number of those guys you mentioned– like Ish, Mookie, Hopson, Allan Houston and others– were below .000 as 22-year olds, but easily above .000 as 23-year olds. Allan Houston had a .091 WS48 as a 23-year old. So Ron is behind the curve of a lot of the guys you mentioned.

      A lot of those guys were also scrubs who never really helped anybody win anything. Could Ron become the next Norris Cole or Trenton Hassell? I mean, I guess the answer is “yes” but people here are saying he’s Hornacek 2.0. I don’t doubt that Baker could stick as a journeyman who plays a few thousand minutes for bad teams but it’s going to be a surprise if he ends up being much more than that.

    59. Will the Thrill

      You also left out that he went from being a non-recruited walk on to a Wooden Award finalist, then from an undrafted FA to an NBA rotation player with a guaranteed contract.

      This. And he didn’t play any AAU ball until his senior year because he was too short and “not athletic enough”. He seems to have the smarts to figure out how to be effective no matter the situation, given the time. I don’t think he will become anything better than a serviceable backup or hopefully fringe starter, but I am not ready to give up on him yet.

    60. Will the Thrill

      Also, there is a difference between the development curve of players who come into the league as seniors and players that come as freshman. It is unfair to look at only age while ignoring actual NBA experience in games. The NBA is a different game than NCAA ball, and just because they have a couple more years under their belt playing for their college team doesn’t mean that experience is equal to experience at the NBA level. We really still have a small sample size for Baker anyway as he didn’t exactly play that much. Who should we be getting instead?

    61. 2FOR18

      The FAN reported about an hour ago that melo has touched down in Houston.
      Now, let us pray.

    62. nicos

      The problem with Ron is that he might make an okay two guard if he could get his three point shooting to league average but we already have Lee and now Dotson there. Plus it’s likely that Frank will get some of his minutes there as well. Baker is just not a point guard- 17.3 assist% vs. 19.2 tov%- and given that Lee gives you zero playmaking from the two starting Ron at the point just dooms the Knicks to another year of offensive futility.

    63. ClashFan

      Maybe the Knicks’ confidence in Dotson was the reason to not make an offer to Justin Holiday?

      Among the other guys, Labeyrie faded after a fast start, but I still think he should get a camp invite. Kornet got a 2 way deal, so he’ll be there.

      Anyone else?

    64. JK47

      I ain’t sayin’ the Knicks should cut Baker. They should be giving him a shot, because there is a small chance he turns out to be decent. That’s all well and good. I’m glad he’s on the roster! Better that the roster spot goes to Ron instead of another season of Sasha or something.

      There seems to be sort of a David Eckstein sort of thing happening with Baker though. He’s scrappy! He’s got heart! I just want to tousle his hair!

    65. stratomatic

      Maybe the Knicks’ confidence in Dotson was the reason to not make an offer to Justin Holiday?

      I have little doubt that was the reason.

      From what I gather, it’s not just Knicks fans that have noticed. I’m hearing that scouts from other teams like him a lot too.

    66. d-mar

      The FAN reported about an hour ago that melo has touched down in Houston.
      Now, let us pray.

      “I miss NY so much, I miss my wife,
      It’s lonely in the Lone Star State,
      Rocket Ma-a-a-a-n, Rocket Man”

    67. Frank

      I think the thing that makes me most likely to predict some improvement from Ron is that he’s always been a pretty good shooter, and maybe his awful shooting efficiency was a small sample thing. I know the NBA line is a couple feet further back, but that shouldn’t make his FT shooting fall off a cliff too.

      Melo is in Houston?!

      I actually think if I were the Cavs I would trade Love for Melo. I get that Love is more efficient and a better rebounder, but my guess is that if Melo were shooting the same shots as Love, he’d be plenty efficient. Of the 3 pointers that Love shot last year, FIFTY percent were “open” or “wide open” (compared to 33% for Melo). SEVENTY percent of Love’s shots were catch and shoot compared to 40% for Melo. And while Melo has never been a good defender, my guess is he would hang better against the Warriors than Love did.

      The Cavs problem is that their offense completely fell apart whenever Lebron was off the floor. Even a diminished Melo could be the centerpiece of a second unit offense, especially if he were at the 4. And worse comes to worst and Lebron leaves, Melo’s contract is a year shorter at most than Love’s, and possibly even 2 years shorter (if Lebron leaves next summer, you can bet Melo is opting out too).

    68. 2FOR18

      Once melo sits down with a CPA and has the Texas vs NY tax rates explained, shit will start getting real.

    69. stratomatic

      @73

      You convinced me (granted I want to be convinced). Now just convince the Cavs. :-)

    70. GoNyGoNyGo

      @67 – Houston should be prepared to pay up. Nothing less than the Rockets 2020 1st round pick plus matching salaries work for me.

      @59 – It would be fun to watch Melorando at the garden. I will accept Rondo on the team because he helps our tanking effort. As long as his playing time doesn’t come at the expense of the time that the kids have on the floor.

      BTW, not that I want a good season or that I like Rondo, but from a basketball perspective, Rondo is a better fit than Rose for the rotation. Rondo is a very different player than Rose. He passes. He defends. He can even score these days.

    71. fmikieo

      Okay, I literally printed up Ron Baker’s literal college stats, literally crumpled up the paper, literally rolled my window down and literally threw the wadded-up ball of paper out of the literal window.

      I think you’re being a little over-literal

    72. TheOakmanCometh

      Smart would be a good addition to this team. He’s a good passer so you can run offense through him. He’s a hustle guy so he’d be a good role model for the young’uns. But he’s such a brutal shooter that he won’t hurt the tank.

      Our only 2nd round picks between now and 2022 are Houston and Cleveland’s next year. They will both be very low. If Boston wants one of those for Smart, it’s a deal.

    73. TheOakmanCometh

      @77

      I think Rondo lost his defensive ability after his surgeries in Boston. That ballhawk reputation is undeserved at this point.

    74. Mike Kurylo Post author

      He is Hornachek 2.0

      In terms of guys with a negative WS/48 – there is this thing called Basketball Reference where you can actually look this stuff up. If you search for all guards between 22-24 years old who played between 500-1000 minutes and had a negative WS/48, there are actually some players who ended up being reasonable pros:

      Stop looking at catchall stats, because at times they hide things that are completely relevant.

      1 Ron Baker .456 ts%
      2 Jeff Hornacek .526 ts%

      That’s a 70 point difference in true shooting percentage. It’s a chasm to overcome! These are not similar players in any sense, so why would you compare them?

      Here’s every guard in the last 15 years that was as inefficient their rookie year.
      http://bkref.com/tiny/VQENy

      So really, Baker’s ceiling is Norris Cole or Jordan Crawford.

      That said I’d like to see New York give him more minutes, but geez temper those expectations.

    75. MSA

      I think Rondo lost his defensive ability after his surgeries in Boston. That ballhawk reputation is undeserved at this point.

      To be fair, he hasn’t had a negative DBPM since his Celtics days and his RBPM are on the top third of the PG list every year.

    76. Frank

      Stop looking at catchall stats, because at times they hide things that are completely relevant.

      1 Ron Baker .456 ts%
      2 Jeff Hornacek .526 ts%

      That’s a 70 point difference in true shooting percentage. It’s a chasm to overcome! These are not similar players in any sense, so why would you compare them?

      I only looked at WS/48 because that’s what JK47 was complaining about. But fine.

      Baker has a tiny sample size in the pros — he shot 437 free throws in college at an 80% rate, but shot 65% last year. If he shoots them at 77%, and just shoots 3 pointers at 33%, then his TS is 50.4, which isn’t good of course, but doesn’t doom him in the eyes of the stats people to a career of mediocrity or worse.

      Baker isn’t ever going to be more than a 4th guard on a good team, but I think he can be a reasonably productive rotation player given his non-scoring contributions.

    77. Z-man

      I ain’t sayin’ the Knicks should cut Baker. They should be giving him a shot, because there is a small chance he turns out to be decent. That’s all well and good. I’m glad he’s on the roster! Better that the roster spot goes to Ron instead of another season of Sasha or something.

      There seems to be sort of a David Eckstein sort of thing happening with Baker though. He’s scrappy! He’s got heart! I just want to tousle his hair!

      Then we’re essentially on the same page.

    78. Frank

      damn, Teodosic is going to the Clips. Would’ve been nice to see him in blue and orange, but I guess there’s no reason for him to come here.

    79. ptmilo

      Here’s every guard in the last 15 years that was as inefficient their rookie year.
      http://bkref.com/tiny/VQENy

      So really, Baker’s ceiling is Norris Cole or Jordan Crawford.

      Sure Baker will probably suck, but if you’re talking about ceilings it’s silly to limit the sample to 15 years. Rookie year TS for players who shot at least a few dozen 3s and at least 22 as rookie include:

      Mookie Blaylock: 41.6%
      Will Barton: 43.7%
      Allan Houston: 46.5%
      Dell Curry: 47.4%
      Dan Majerle: 47.9%
      Lindsey Hunter 44.1%

      you’re too big to dream small, mike.

    80. Frank

      So Ian Begley makes the good point that the Clips were one of Derrick Rose’s possible destinations. It is looking more possible that the Knicks and Rose will be the last two people at the bar at 3am.

      Is there any acceptable contract # that the anti-Rose crowd would be ok with signing him to?

      I think one year (or two years with the second year a team option) at MLE$ would be the minimum that Rose might agree to. If it’s me I’d rather just not have him, and save our cap$ for later this season when teams that are in the luxury tax but obviously not good enough to contend start dumping assets to avoid the tax.

    81. chrisk06811

      I mean, Rondo was 11th in the league in assists last year, and played less minutes than all the guys above him. Double figures 6 of the 7 years before that. I mean, KP and Billy will develop better if someone throws them the ball, right?

    82. Owen

      Rose has value. You can reasonably project him to be above replacement and that’s worth something.

      I never want to see him in a Knicks uniform again though.

    83. ptmilo

      I’ve read reports that Teodisic expects to start. I wonder if the Clips don’t really like Beverley and would do a sign and trade with Rose instead?

    84. JK47

      Where I’d rank “bringing back Derrick Rose” among our other options:

      1. Mack/Sessions platoon
      2. Rondo
      3. Ride it out with the crap we already have
      4. Sign some other scrub for the vet min
      5. Talk Baron Davis out of retirement
      6. Talk Derek Harper out of retirement
      7. Talk Clyde out of retirement
      8. Convert Kyle O’Quinn to PG
      9. Bring back Ray Felton
      10. Play only four guys at a time with no PG at all
      11. Disband the Knicks
      12. Bring back Derrick Rose

    85. stratomatic

      @88

      The scenario I mentioned a month or so ago where we wind up with Rose (despite my objections) may come to pass. The Knicks need a starting PG and they also need a second scorer to take some of the heat off KP if Melo is traded. Rose wants to play in NY and checks both boxes. I’d rather we move on. Hopefully we will. But it was easy to see how they might conclude that Rose is the best option quite awhile ago. That was one of several reasons I was hoping we would actually land one of the other PGs (like Rubio or Hill). Then Rose would be out of the picture.

      If he came back for 1 year with a team option for year 2 that would not be a disaster. Without Melo, he’d be forced to give the ball to KP more often anyway.

    86. stratomatic

      7. Talk Clyde out of retirement

      I’m old enough to have seen Clyde at his peak. I’d bet anything he’d be the best PG on the team NOW if he only had to play two or three 2 minute stretches. :-)

    87. geo

      Where I’d rank “bringing back Derrick Rose” among our other options:

      1. Mack/Sessions platoon
      2. Rondo
      3. Ride it out with the crap we already have
      4. Sign some other scrub for the vet min
      5. Talk Baron Davis out of retirement
      6. Talk Derek Harper out of retirement
      7. Talk Clyde out of retirement
      8. Convert Kyle O’Quinn to PG
      9. Bring back Ray Felton
      10. Play only four guys at a time with no PG at all
      11. Disband the Knicks
      12. Bring back Derrick Rose

      that seems like a more than fair assessment of Rose’s worth…if anything – maybe a little too generous…

    88. GoNyGoNyGo

      @92 – I was thinking along the same lines. I might insert the following before your #12..

      11b- Bring Marbury back
      11c- Pick a random fan from the stands

      There is no way I want Rose back on this team. I stood up for him through EOY 2016 but I’ve had my fill of his antics and his selfish game.

    89. Frank

      Huge summer league line out of Dotson today. Dude looks in summer league like he might be a player.

      by the way have any of you guys seen the summer league clips of the Chinese player on Dallas? That dude looks AWESOME. Ding Yanyuhang. check it out on youtube. That guy can play.

    90. briand

      Hi all. Haven’t been on these boards for a while, but found myself looking for someone to share potential Melo deals with. For me, the priority in a Melo deal should be to dump Noah’s contract. The following trade works according to ESPN’s trade machine:

      Knicks get: Thompson, Shumpert, Frye and Jefferson
      Cavs get: Melo and Noah

      Would you do this if you were the Knicks? Do you think the Cavs would go for it?

    91. Accidentank 2017

      If the Knicks re-sign Rose for anything more than a 1 year prove it deal, I’d be pretty disgusted. I could talk myself into 64 games on a .530 TS% if he grabbed another 2 assists/36 and at least had 2 more 3PA/36. He’ll eventually tear a miniscus and we’ll get the Frank N’Tank, so I’m not 100% against Derrick Rose. However, anything more than 1 guaranteed year would be a travesty.

    92. Jack Bauer

      “If Rose came back for 1 year with a team option for year 2 that would not be a disaster.”

      If Rose comes back, and dear god I hope he doesn’t, we only have to worry about him for about 50 games anyway. Between injuries and going AWOL he’s bound to miss around 30 games so this should limit the damage somewhat.

      Between Rose and Rondo, I think I’d have to go with Rondo. At least he passes so KP, Willy, and the rest of the team will be more involved and in theory happier campers.

    93. Accidentank 2017

      If Dame Dotson turns into a real asset we need to dedicate a single thread admitting that the Derrick Rose trade was a success. The kid looks like a two way baller (and his college are at Houston were excellent), and if we strike with him and Ntilikina, the Knicks would have a damn good draft record under Phil Jackson.

    94. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Phil has always struck me as someone who should be a lead scout/consultant for a basketball team, not a POBO. I think he would thrive in that role

    95. Frank

      Phil has always struck me as someone who should be a lead scout/consultant for a basketball team, not a POBO. I think he would thrive in that role

      he really hasn’t shown he can do anything well except actually coach superstars. i’m not sure why anyone would trust him to be a scout (I’d rather have Clarence Gaines and whoever the Knicks european scout is — Kevin something?). And in what way do you think he could provide value as a consultant given his outdated views on the game?

      Really – he didn’t trade draft picks, and he picked some good Euros. Everything else was a complete disaster.

    96. 2FOR18

      @98 he’ll yes I’d do that. It would seem to leave Cleveland even barer than they are now. If O’quinn could be fit in then I think Cleve would do it for sure.

      I’d want some type of pick back though.

    97. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @105

      I meant as a talent consultant for drafting teams, not as a consultant for basketball acquisitions outside the draft

      I think Phil has a decent eye for talent, and while Gaines did most of the legwork, he’s shown a knack for acquiring decent young players (KOQ, KP, Willy, sort of with Randle.) Its hard to tell just how much of that is Phil, but it’s clear he’s much better on the ground than in the office, is what I’m getting at. Which makes sense, given his coaching background.

    98. Ntilakilla

      LOL I can’t believe this board has multiple posters going back and forth on the merits of Ron Baker. Damn we are hard up for some basketball action here.

    99. stratomatic

      If Dame Dotson turns into a real asset we need to dedicate a single thread admitting that the Derrick Rose trade was a success. The kid looks like a two way baller (and his college are at Houston were excellent), and if we strike with him and Ntilikina, the Knicks would have a damn good draft record under Phil Jackson.

      Which is why in my defense of the last 3 years I’ve been so adamant in saying that if Phil (and his scouts) had those two 1st round picks during the last 3 years we could easily be the Timberwolves right now and he’d be a hero instead of smoking weed in a cabin somewhere.

      Dotson looks terrific.

      He’s going to have to be able to score a little more off the dribble to become a serious player, but he’s definitely another keeper we more or less stole in the 2nd round.

    100. thenoblefacehumper

      There is no price or number of years that would make bringing Derrick Rose back a decent move. If he has a “good” year by his standards, we’ll win a few more games than we otherwise would while almost certainly not emphasizing developing our young guys, because Derrick Rose doesn’t do that. If he has one of his normal shitty years we’ll be just as bad as we would’ve been without him, while also probably marginalizing young guys.

      So we either fuck up our draft pick for no benefit, or marginalize KP/Willy/Frank for no benefit, or both. What is the case for bringing Derrick Rose back?

    101. Mike Kurylo Post author

      @98

      I don’t think Cleveland wants to move Tristan in general, unless it’s for something considerable.

      Beyond that I don’t think The Cavs would do that. Melo isn’t the answer for them, and Noah offers nothing.

    102. stratomatic

      i’m not sure why anyone would trust him to be a scout (I’d rather have Clarence Gaines and whoever the Knicks european scout is — Kevin something?).

      Part of being a leader is bringing in people you trust and that you think are very good at their job because no one is an expert at everything. If we can trash him for keeping his friend Rambis around to be his eyes and ears in the locker room we can give him credit for bringing in his trusted adviser Clarence Gaines.

    103. Zanzibar

      Which is why in my defense of the last 3 years I’ve been so adamant in saying that if Phil (and his scouts) had those two 1st round picks during the last 3 years we could easily be the Timberwolves right now and he’d be a hero instead of smoking weed in a cabin somewhere.

      Phil could have had Chicago’s two 2015 first-round picks in a Melo S&T so it’s a bit disingenuous to bemoan poor Phil not having any 1st round picks.

      If Dame Dotson turns into a real asset we need to dedicate a single thread admitting that the Derrick Rose trade was a success.

      So Grant performed above average after the All Star break in his first season. We could have traded Jerian to Chicago for 2 second round picks (including the Dotson one) and still have retained Lopez. Regarding Robin, Thibs just paid Taj 14m. Remember the rumor a year or so ago that Thibs was looking for a 4/5 type who could fit his system? He very well might have traded Rubio for Lopez at that time. #OPPORTUNITYCOST

    104. lavor postell

      Dotson has range out to 26-27 feet and can shoot even when a man is right in his grill. Between that and his rebounding he’ll stay in the league for awhile.

    105. stratomatic

      Phil could have had Chicago’s two 2015 first-round picks in a Melo S&T so it’s a bit disingenuous to bemoan poor Phil not having any 1st round picks.

      This is most likely “fake news”. No one was ever able to demonstrate conclusively there was any real offer on the table, let alone one that contained 2 first round picks.

    106. Zanzibar

      Dotson has range out to 26-27 feet and can shoot even when a man is right in his grill. Between that and his rebounding he’ll stay in the league for awhile.

      His rebounding could be especially important if KP ever plays the 5. When Bargs played the 5 (Melo at the 4), our rebounding didn’t suffer in part because of the rebounding ability of JR/Shump. I remember looking at Dotson’s profile right after the signing and thinking the skills he exhibits (shooting and rebounding) should translate to NBA. He shot 44% from 3 compared to Monk’s 40%. The only real negative in comparison was he was about 3 years older than Monk. Very surprised he didn’t go earlier. NYK’s were trying to trade their 2 second round picks to move up in the second round so they were maybe worried as well. It wouldn’t surprise me if the 2nd round picks (WHG and Dotson) end up being better than our 1st round picks (KP and Frank). Let’s hope they’re all at least above average.

    107. briand

      I don’t think Cleveland wants to move Tristan in general, unless it’s for something considerable.

      Beyond that I don’t think The Cavs would do that. Melo isn’t the answer for them, and Noah offers nothing.

      Interesting. Wouldn’t Melo be considered something “considerable?” Maybe I am overrating Melo, but based on what I saw in the Finals, I think the Cavs would have been far better off with Melo on the floor than Thompson.

      Would you do that trade if you are the Knicks?

    108. JK47

      If Dotson turns out to be a good player, that’s still a “bad process/good result” trade. Second round picks are very easy to come by, and you shouldn’t have to give up a decent player on a rookie contract (Grant) and a veteran on a good value contract (Lopez) to get one.

    109. plenty

      116 – so in this hypothetical situation, let’s say we hypothetically had confirmation that the deal was on the table for Phil to take or pass.

      Surely then you would admit that phil did a poor job?

    110. Zanzibar

      Phil could have had Chicago’s two 2015 first-round picks in a Melo S&T so it’s a bit disingenuous to bemoan poor Phil not having any 1st round picks.

      This is most likely “fake news”. No one was ever able to demonstrate conclusively there was any real offer on the table, let alone one that contained 2 first round picks.

      The Bulls really wanted Melo – that’s why they still had Boozer’s contract to facilitate a S&T. It’s Phil who never opened negotiations. The trade options discussed at the time were those 2 picks, Mirotic, Butler. It’s absurd to think they wouldn’t have given up those picks for Melo especially when they effectively ended up using those 2 picks to draft McDermott.

    111. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Source: Blazers, Rockets, #Knicks have engaged in early talks regarding a 3 team deal that could potentially send C. Anthony to Houston.

      From JSportsent who’s pretty decent

    112. Frank

      If Dotson turns out to be a good player, that’s still a “bad process/good result” trade. Second round picks are very easy to come by, and you shouldn’t have to give up a decent player on a rookie contract (Grant) and a veteran on a good value contract (Lopez) to get one.

      Speaking of this – Philly just sold the draft rights to Jawun Evans and Sterling Brown – just for cash. We couldn’t have ponied up some Dolan Dollars for Jawun Evans, who sight unseen would be the best PG on the team right now?

    113. Frank

      yowza!!! @Jsports_ent (who has good sources with the Knicks) just tweeted this:

      Source: Blazers, Rockets, #Knicks have engaged in early talks regarding a 3 team deal that could potentially send C. Anthony to Houston.

      now everyone run to the trade machine!!

    114. lavor postell

      Phil did a bad job. Phil wasn’t Isiah or Layden and a bunch of the articles and pods I’ve listened to with local and national media figures suggesting he was the worst Knicks exec of their lifetime makes me believe they’re idiots, trolls, pandering for clicks or a combination of all of these things.

      That, or they were literally born the day Walsh was hired since I can see arguments for how Walsh and Grunwald were better than Phil, though my personal belief is the overall tenure of all 3 is one of failure with Phil the only one that didn’t trade away future picks for any instant gratification plan.

      Phil’s gone though and the Knick, for now, seem to be exhibiting some patience and prudence. For that I’m happy.

    115. briand

      Source: Blazers, Rockets, #Knicks have engaged in early talks regarding a 3 team deal that could potentially send C. Anthony to Houston.

      From JSportsent who’s pretty decent

      Interesting. Wonder what Blazer’s involvement would be.

    116. BigBlueAL

      The reason it’s a joke to call Baker Hornacek 2.0 is because you are hugely underselling what a good player Hornacek was. He had a career TS% of 58% and WS/48 of .154 over 15 seasons. Hornacek was a helluva player.

    117. Ben R

      Our front office, whether it be Phil or now Mills seems incapable of multitasking. It feels like no one is ever working. We never get the small detail moves right. Jawun Evans would have been a nice get. Teodosic, Collison smaller deals for a veteran PG and we don’t reach to either one. Instead it’s Waiters, Rose and Rondo. Names instead of stability. Splashy instead of detail oriented. Nothing ever seems to change.

      If we resign Rose I’m done I might be out for this season. There is no player I want less.

    118. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @126

      I imagine they take on the Ry Anderson contract in exchange for us taking on, say, Turner or Harkless + Ed Davis (the latter more likely given Mills stated preference for building a young team.) Then some combo of picks get swapped amongst the teams

      This trade works: http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ydxnloth

      I’m just confused as to why Portland would do this unless picks were involved for them or they’re dumb and like Ryan Anderson next to Nurkic as a stretch 4 or something

    119. Zanzibar

      I remember a few months ago Zach Lowe asked Morey on the podcast what he’d do to defeat the Warriors. His response was something to the effect of …score 130 and hope GSW scores less. So it makes some sense that he’d be interested in Melo as a 3rd scorer to compete against the Warriors. The ability to have two of Harden/CP3/Melo on the court most of the time might be critical. Look what happened when Bron went to the bench and Kyrie was the only real offensive weapon out there against GSW.

    120. chrismcnealy

      @123

      I am a Jawun Evans fan and would’ve loved to have seen him in a knick uniform. Yes, he is undersized, but he has serious skills and is going to be a good PG in this league. However, to be clear, this trade from Philly is nothing new – it was orchestrated on the night of the draft.

    121. briand

      @130

      What sort of pick to you think the Knicks wind up with in this scenario? Houston’s 2019 1st rounder?

    122. stratomatic

      The Bulls really wanted Melo – that’s why they still had Boozer’s contract to facilitate a S&T. It’s Phil who never opened negotiations. The trade options discussed at the time were those 2 picks, Mirotic, Butler. It’s absurd to think they wouldn’t have given up those picks for Melo especially when they effectively ended up using those 2 picks to draft McDermott.

      I can’t discuss a trade that was never officially offered or that wasn’t subsequently verified by someone within the Chicago organization. Journalists say all kinds of things when speculating about potential trades. Most of it is BS. About the only part of it I trust is that Boozer was going to have to be part of it. That’s the only piece they surely wanted to get rid of that could help with the salaries.

    123. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @135

      It would have to be houstons 2020 since their 2018 is already outgoing to LAC for the CP3 deal. So either that or some kind of combo of Hartenstein + 2nds swapped given to Portland and us

      Picks better be involved if they get to shed that Anderson contract and get Melo (who isn’t good but is still valued more highly than Anderson around the league)

    124. lavor postell

      We need to be getting a Portland 1st in this deal

      If we net something like Crabbe, Leonard/Harkless, Rockets 1st and a Portland 1st or the one they’re owed by Cleveland next year that works for me. As much as the salary taken on would suck they’re both at least young and come off the cap in 3 years when Noah’s does. It would also make Lee very expendable.

    125. stratomatic

      This is really the perfect trade scenario. We all should have thought of this.

      All 3 teams have bad contracts Knicks(Melo), Houston(Anderson), and Portland (Turner, Crabbe, Harkless). So all you really have to do is shuffle the bad contracts around so each team is getting something that fits their plans better and you are 80% of the way there.

      The last 20% is filler and perhaps a pick moving somewhere to whoever is getting the worst contract(s).

    126. briand

      We need to be getting a Portland 1st in this deal

      If we net something like Crabbe, Leonard/Harkless, Rockets 1st and a Portland 1st or the one they’re owed by Cleveland next year that works for me. As much as the salary taken on would suck they’re both at least young and come off the cap in 3 years when Noah’s does. It would also make Lee very expendable.

      That would be ideal. But what is Portland getting in this deal that would warrant them giving up a first?

    127. briand

      This is really the perfect trade scenario. We all should have thought of this.

      All 3 teams have bad contracts Knicks(Melo), Houston(Anderson), and Portland (Turner, Crabbe, Harkless). So all you really have to do is shuffle the bad contracts around so each team is getting something that fits their plans better and you are 80% of the way there.

      The last 20% is filler and perhaps a pick moving somewhere to whoever is getting the worst contract(s).

      Is the Melo contract really a bad contract? I think he would get 2 years, $57m on the open market. JJ Reddick just signed for 1 year, $22m, Gallo got 3 years, $65m, Waiters got 4 years, $52m.

    128. stratomatic

      Is the Melo contract really a bad contract? I think he would get 2 years, $57m on the open market. JJ Reddick just signed for 1 year, $22m, Gallo got 3 years, $65m, Waiters got 4 years, $52m.

      It’s not terrible given the market and perceptions about him away from this forum (lol), but I think sharp people realize he’s overrated and may be declining. If he declined further in 17/18, he may opt in for 18/19. So you’d be getting a diminished and declining Melo for 2 years.

    129. lavor postell

      That would be ideal. But what is Portland getting in this deal that would warrant them giving up a first?

      They’ll be getting under the luxury tax, which will help them avoid paying the repeater tax when they go over next summer after extending Nurkic and will also save Paul Allen more than a few million doing it.

    130. nicos

      Portland doesn’t save anything if they take back Anderson. I’m not taking Evan Turner or Crabbe for Melo without at least a first round pick attached- Melo is still the best player and is owed less money. I can’t see Portland giving up a first rounder as they’re most likely just swapping Crabbe or Turner’s terrible contract for Ryan Anderson’s terrible contract. So you’re talking about taking on a worse contract/player than Melo and maybe you get a first round pick from Houston three years from now? I get the need to move on from Melo but that prospect doesn’t excite me at all.

    131. JK47

      I would take Crabbe for Melo. Crabbe doesn’t have a no-trade clause. You could possibly move him to contender later. This is a guy with a .600+ TS%, and he’s young.

    132. Zanzibar

      What about including Nets in the mix – they’ve got a ton of free cap and could facilitate a lot of deals since matching wouldn’t apply? Not sure after we renounce Rose if we’d have to take more salary.

      Houston… Melo
      Knicks…….Harkless
      Portland…Anderson
      Nets………..Crabbe/Turner/Houston 1st round pick/Houston & Portland 2nd round picks

    133. lavor postell

      Portland doesn’t save anything if they take back Anderson.

      Yes they do if the Knicks use their cap space to take on more of their bloated contracts. Our major chip here is that we can take on more salary than we give because we’ve actually hoarded our cap space.

    134. Zanzibar

      I guess this would be fine if the Knicks also got a pick: http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ycctzj32. I’d then look to dump Lee for whatever you can get for him. But if Evan Turner is involved instead of Crabbe I’d say no even with a pick coming back.

      Not sure why Portland would do that. Aren’t there plenty of teams who would take Harkless into their cap for nothing? Knicks and Nets both would or should. And Crabbe @19m > Anderson @19m.

      My guess is Portland really wants to dump Turner’s salary but will have to include a sweetener in the form of Crabbe or Harkless. Nobody wants Turner though unless Nets are interested in taking him for Crabbe (to whom they made an RFA offer a year ago) and/or Harkless and/or some picks.

    135. latke

      I just don’t understand why the Knicks want to dodge bad contracts. If you want to bribe a team with picks so you don’t have to take back Ryan Anderson, why not also bribe a team to take on Joakim Noah? Both are stupid for this team for the exact same reason. The only difference is visuals… because the knicks would never technically own the picks that would be routed to the team taking on Anderson, the media and fans would for the most part be too dull to equate that with trading picks.

    136. Ben R

      My three way trade is:

      Houston: Melo + Noah
      NY: Gordon + Crabbe + Onuaku + Taylor
      Portland: Anderson

      No picks. Everyone wins.

    137. Bruno Almeida

      Id take Crabbe to move Melo easily, he’s a very good shooter and is still 25… he should be moveable eventually if it becomes necessary.

      a future pick from either the Rockets or the Blazers plus Crabbe would be
      a good trade imo. anything with Harkless or Turner involved is worse, but not necessarily terrible too.

    138. Zanzibar

      My three way trade is:

      Houston: Melo + Noah
      NY: Gordon + Crabbe + Onuaku + Taylor
      Portland: Anderson

      No picks. Everyone wins.

      How does Portland win? They give up a younger better player in Crabbe for Anderson. They both make $19m (3 years left) so they’ve shed no salary.

    139. Cock Jowles, who remembers that reub predicted 55 wins

      How does Portland win? They give up a younger better player in Crabbe for Anderson. They both make $19m (3 years left) so they’ve shed no salary.

      fit, synergy, hustle, grit, intangibles, upside, growth, veteran leadship, pick-and-pop, proven asset, known quantity

      just spitballing here, I can’t give you any real argument either

    140. KnickfaninNJ

      If the Knicks really have serious negotiations for trading Melo underway, I can see why they haven’t done much about a point guard yet. Such a trade would affect so many things.

      As for Baker, he doesn’t have to be Hornacek 2.0. Even if he’s Grant 2.0, it was worth re-signing him.

    141. Cock Jowles, who remembers that reub predicted 55 wins

      could have had Rubio for Rose

      but now it looks like we’re just gonna re-sign Rose

      never forget

    142. Ben R

      Portland isn’t really trying to shed salary. That’s all media and fan overreaction to their cap situation. I think they’ll sit pay the tax and maybe move someone next summer when the contracts seem less terrible.

      As for Anderson and Crabbe. They have similar value in the NBA. Crabbe is younger but they are both getting paid about 8 million a year more than they’re worth. In Portland Crabbe is the 2nd wing off the bench, Anderson would start.

      Both are 3 point specialists that are mediocre to poor at everything else. Anderson just fits more of a positional need.

    143. Zanzibar

      fit, synergy, hustle, grit, intangibles, upside, growth, veteran leadship, pick-and-pop, proven asset, known quantity

      My fear is those terms are being bandied about in an MSG conference room about Evan Turner. How many land mines are we gonna be able to avoid this summer?

    144. Donnie Walsh

      I think Phil has a decent eye for talent

      Remember when Phil said that one of Tim Hardaway Jr’s strengths was that he was 6’8″?

      That was fun.

    145. 2FOR18

      Re: Crabbe vs Anderson and positional need, Ill just say this:

      When Portland was debating whether they should draft Jordan or Sam Bowie, Bobby Knight was advised that they were leaning toward Bowie because they needed a center. Knight said, “Then play Jordan at center.”

    146. Ben R

      The Rumor is Anderson for Harkless and Leonard. While Leonard is trash Harkless is a nice player on a good contract, much better than Crabbe. That’s the trade then:

      Houston: Melo + Noah
      NY: Gordon + Harkless + Leonard + Onuaku + Taylor
      Portland: Anderson

      That’s even better for us.

      The key is I would not send Melo to Houston for just Anderson, that’s too cheap for Houston. I think we hold out for them taking Noah and sending Gordon or no Anderson and send Gordon + Ariza. Whether Portland is involved or not.

    147. 2FOR18

      So Portland is giving up Harkless and Leonard for Anderson? Why would they do that? Who started this rumor, Steve Mills?

    148. Ben R

      It seems unlikely but that is the rumor.

      For now take Portland out. What about:

      Houston: Melo + Noah
      NY: Gordon + Anderson + Onuaku + Taylor

      Anderson is far more tradable than Noah.

    149. 2FOR18

      Well, I would certainly do that trade. Then I’d sign Teodosic and dance for a few days.

    150. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Noah is never getting traded and Houston isn’t giving up both of Gordon/Anderson that’s a pipe dream. It’s Anderson to Portland and Melo to Houston and some combo of Portland contracts and hopefully picks to us

    151. Ben R

      Melo for Anderson should be a non-starter. Say no, walk away. Why are we giving away a player on what is likely an expiring contract for Anderson and no assets. If Melo never plays a minute that’s a win for Houston.

    152. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      The whole reason the Knicks are seeking a 3rd team is to dump the Anderson contract on them

      We’re not taking Anderson under any circumstance by all indications

    153. Frank

      I could be convinced to do something like this:

      POR gets Ryan anderson and Ryan Kelly

      HOU gets Melo

      NYK gets Turner, Harkless, 2018 Portland 1st, Lakers 2018 2nd (owned by Portland), and a top 5 protected Houston 1st (2 years after their 1st is conveyed to Atlanta).

      A young prospect on a reasonable contract, a bad contract (but still semi-useful player), two firsts and a second is good return for Melo.

    154. Ben R

      Dumping Anderson has a cost. Why are we the ones having to pay it? We have the asset that Houston wants.

      So we’re trading Melo’s expiring contract for the honor of paying someone to take Anderson’s contract. I’d rather just bench Melo for the season than end up with Leonard’s or Crabbe’s or Turner’s terrible contract. Even if we get Harkless he’s not worth it if we get stuck with a bad contract as well.

    155. ptmilo

      more competitive fight, mcgregor mayweather or the first olynyk waiters practice throw down?

    156. Ben R

      Portland is not trading a first to dump a contract. If they were willing to do that they would have this year when they had three. They are content to pay the tax. They want to improve not cut salary. Also Houston cannot trade a first until like 2026 because of the protections on the pick they gave LA.

    157. ClashFan

      Dallas is now a “serious” contender for Rose? Just sign somewhere, already! Rose to Dallas and Rondo to Lakers. Done!

      If the Knicks can move Melo, doesn’t that mean that they’d have about $40m in cap space available to take back contracts?

      That might interest Portland. The would have to take Anderson’s $19.5, but they’d want to dump at least 2 big contracts, and surely Turner’s $17.1m (and three years) would be THE one they’d want to get rid of. If I’m the Knicks, I’d try to make Harkless ($9.6m and also three years) the other one, and I’d want a #1 pick back from Houston (or the rights to Hartenstein, maybe).

      So, Knicks get Turner, Harkless, and a #1 pick.
      Houston gets Melo
      Portland gets Anderson and $7m in cap relief

      If Portland wants yet more cap relief, swap Crabbe for Harkless. Portland now gets around $16m in cap relief, but then I think Portland would need to kick in a #1 pick to the Knicks as well.

      I don’t know. I’d like Melo off the team, but taking back two 3 year contracts…

    158. Frank

      Portland did dump a first essentially by trading 15 and 20 to get 10. Maybe you’re right but I’m not sure why you’re so sure- this idea of Portland trying to dump salary has been around for a while from respectable sources.

      Look- I’m not sure whether my trade idea is any good anyway given what our cap situation would be with Noah Lee Turner Harkless all on the cap for 3 seasons. But i don’t know why it’s so clear to you that Portland wouldn’t do that.

    159. Frank

      And the Houston pick is only protected 1-3. It’ll convey next draft. You can write a trade that indicates the pick conveys two years after the protected pick does. So it’d be a 2020 pick.

    160. stratomatic

      For this to work:

      Portland has to get cap relief for taking Anderson because his contract sucks and they have no real use for him. That means they have to get rid of 2 bad contracts worth more than Anderson. I think there’s almost no way Portland gives up better players than Anderson plus any picks just for cap relief.

      NY has to get compensated for taking at least 2 contracts from Portland worth as much as Melo (or thereabouts) on longer contracts than Melo.

      That means Houston has to come up with pick(s) to compensate NY because they are getting the best player on the shortest contract.

      From what I gather, Houston does not have a 1st round pick to trade right now. However, they have the ability to take a protection off another pick they traded earlier and that would free up one future 1st round pick for them to send us.

      So the question becomes, is there any combination of players NY would be willing to take from Portland that adds up to approximately Melo’s contract for a single extra 1st round pick?

      Any trades where the Knicks get a bunch of picks out of this are sheer fantasy. There are no “good deals” for Melo.

    161. Ben R

      @178
      The Houston pick is protected 1-3 till 2024. So while it will convey next year the protection prevents them from trading any other future first round picks until 2026.
      @177
      As for Portland, I’m not positive but I live in Portland and the front office has been consistent in their denial of the want to shed salary and their draft supported that. The local sports media seem to believe that Portland is waiting till next summer when those contracts have two instead of three years left and won’t be as hard to move.

      Besides we cannot have Noah, Lee, Thomas, Turner and Crabbe on our cap for three more years just to move Melo and secure two late 1sts.

    162. chrisk06811

      I don’t see Portland trading a pick to be a part of this mess. I do see Houston needing to throw in a pick or a young player, since melo for anderson is a plus for them. I just don’t know that they have the picks needed.

      Why are we dumping Melo with 2 years left to take on guys that have 3 left? Crabbe i can see, not the other dregs.

    163. Frank

      Re Portland- they gave the lions share of their PF minutes to Meyers Leonard, Ed Davis, and Noah Vonleh. Ryan Anderson isn’t great but he’s a huge upgrade from those dudes especially when you have two dynamic guards that need space that Ryan Anderson would give them.

      They have too many wings making too much money.

      Multiple outlets are now at least discussing the option of Ryan Anderson in Portland. Houston is plausible for Melo given CP3 there, and there’s been a lot of smoke re Melo to Houston. So the question may be how to satisfy the Knicks.

    164. Brian Cronin

      Rudy Gay is not a “good” fit anywhere, but he makes a little sense on the Spurs.

    165. Ben R

      I agree, I think Anderson in Portland helps them and they want him.

      The problem with the trade scenerios is that Houston is getting off too easy. They need to give up more than just Anderson to get Melo. That is a slam dunk for them, we need to make them lose something. I say take Noah or we don’t take Anderson and therefore get Gordon and Ariza or Gordon and Capela (only ways to make it work without Anderson). If they say no hold on to Melo and see if Cleveland comes around or Melo expands his list.

    166. stratomatic

      First off, Anderson is not a good basketball player. He looked like he was in decline until he got into D’Antoni’s system and got a second chance at life. He’s not good and his contract sucks. Portland knows that. There is a 0% chance Portland actually wants Anderson at that price. No one in their right mind wants Anderson at that price! It was a crazy overpay that Morey is tying to get out from under. The reason Portland would do it is because they are loaded with other bad contacts and may conclude that Anderson is a decent enough fit that if they get cap relief it makes sense. But they are going to want compensation in some form. There aren’t enough picks to go around. So cap relief is the only thing I can think of and it’s what they were rumored to be looking for anyway.

      Regarding Houston’s ability to send us a 1st round pick. As I already said, they cannot send out a 1st round pick now, but they CAN alter a previously traded pick to not be protected and that would free them up to send out a future 1st round pick.

    167. DRed

      I don’t see where Olynyk works with Whiteside and Bam.

      He’s the stretch 4 I guess

    168. stratomatic

      …continued

      If someone has a great idea, I’m all ears, but it has to start with the premise that Melo’s contract is not attractive and he may not opt out. So whoever gets him may get stuck paying him big money for 2 years while he’s declining .

      If he has a mediocre year and opts out next year he may get offered 2 years at 15 per or 2-3 years at 10 per. Then he’d be better off opting in and signing a new deal after that.

      So it’s not like we are sending out a great contract and everyone else is sending out bad ones – therefore we should get compensated heavily. We would just be sending out the least bad contract. Therefore we deserve something good out of it.

    169. Cock Jowles, who remembers that reub predicted 55 wins

      I don’t understand the Gay thing at all. Way too much money for a guy who suffered a terrible injury for an old basketball player to have.

      No sense whatsoever. They would have been better off buying multiple 2nd rounders with that money. He’s not good.

    170. charley

      Melo is going to have a resurgent year sans Phil. If we can’t get anything of fair value we should just hold onto him for now.

    171. Z-man

      Pop is thinking. “I’m retiring soon, so let’s make so that when I leave, the team will suck and everyone will appreciate me more.” I mean, really?? Rudy Gay??

      As to Melo to Houston scenarios, under no circumstances should we do a trade unless it is a clear win for us. HARD NO to Evan Turner. NO to Ryan Anderson. NO to any deals that leak into KP’s contract year.

      Even the smart “contending” teams are clearly panicking right now, trying to keep up with GS and CLE. Best strategy right now is to just sit tight and pick up good, young (or old), inexpensive players who are shaking loose to free up cap room for overpaid FAs. Sit tight on Melo until Houston or Cleveland cracks, or Melo does and opts out at the end of another losing season.

    172. heavencent35

      Anyone loving our no moves?
      Gay to San Antonio is interesting.
      Teodosic to clippers is a steal. What will you do if the clips wins in the second round vs Houston?
      Nice moves by the kings. I hope they’ll make the playoffs this year.

    173. Cock Jowles, who remembers that reub predicted 55 wins

      Melo is going to have a resurgent year sans Phil. If we can’t get anything of fair value we should just hold onto him for now.

      What’s your excuse going to be when his numbers are the same or worse?

    174. Frank

      A deal in which we get back Harkless (who I like a lot- he is a legit defender and improving 3 point shooter who is still only 24) and picks is a deal we should take for Melo. If we have to take back bad contracts then they’ll just have to add more sweetener- either players or picks.

    175. ptmilo

      I don’t think it’s so bad. Gay is an average-ish player, not terrible. He’s 31. $8.5m for 2 years is an okay contract for an average 31 year old. That’s a lot better than other seriously aging players who are probably already worse than him if he comes back from the injury okay. Guys like Zach Randolph and Taj Gibson. He’s also a better player than Langston Galloway and Dion Waiters who got better contracts. The contract Masai gave Ibaka has about 1000X as much risk as this deal, without much more reward.

    176. Bruno Almeida

      people just see him as a volume shooter who’s not very efficient and won’t play defense or pass, so he’s pretty much the least favorite type of player for people like me and many on this board.

      he’s not terrible per se, hes just overrated and even more risky now after a huge injury.

    177. JK47

      So it’s not like we are sending out a great contract and everyone else is sending out bad ones – therefore we should get compensated heavily.

      Agreed. Melo is not some bitchin’ asset. Even a modest return is something we should feel good about. Getting back Harkless and let’s say Hartenstein from Houston, while taking on one of Portland’s crummy contracts (let’s say Leonard) would be a step forward.

    178. Cock Jowles, who remembers that reub predicted 55 wins

      I actually think Gay was a decent player earlier in his career, just not at $19M a year. After this injury and with age catching up to him? Nah, not at all.

      He’s not Wroten, MCW, Mudiay, 2013-16 Rose or Bargnani. Those were mighty terrible players.

    179. Scorpio Dragon

      They’re signing him for the mid-level exception. So it’s not too bad. Who else is available in that tier right now, especially considering how Miami overpaid for Dion Waiters? The market seems to be approaching above the mid-level exception for mid-level talent.

      My main curiosity is, does Pop allow Gay to supplant Aldridge as the second option? Being that Aldridge wants to leave and will likely leave next year.

    180. bockadoo

      I hope Frank has some Donavon Mitchell in him. Mitchell can PLAY. Steals and passes all over the court. Always smiling… a lot of flair to his game.

    181. Accidentank 2017

      Last I checked Donovan Mitchell was the next Terry Rozier.

      I think Frank Ntilikina is going to be a pleasant surprise the way Kristaps Porzingis was.

    182. Bruno Almeida

      I think Pop realized he can’t really fight GSW with two 7 footers in the frontcourt, and putting Kawhi to play small ball 4 is too much of a waste of his role as the offense initiator… so Gay might be an option to give them a competent small ball lineup where he doesn’t have to do much on D but can help Kawhi on the other end.

      I still think he’s not going to be good but Pop will surely find a role for him.

    183. Z-man

      Yeah, my bad, I thought the Gay contract was $17 mill per year. At $8.5, he’s aaaight.

    184. thenoblefacehumper

      Shams Charania?Verified account
      @ShamsCharania
      Following
      More
      Atlanta RFA Tim Hardaway Jr. has signed a four-year offer sheet with the New York Knicks, league sources tell The Vertical.
      12:09 AM – 7 Jul 2017

      WHAT THE FUCK

    185. thenoblefacehumper

      Awful. What in the fuck?

      That fake competence was fun while it fake lasted!

    186. geo

      did THJr suddenly turn in to a starting point guard…wow 17 million a year…very similiar to the noah deal…wow…just wow…

    187. kevin5318

      @sam_amick
      The Hawks have planned on matching Tim Hardaway Jr.’s offer sheets, & here comes test: 4 yrs, $71 million offer sheet signed w/ NY. ESPN 1st

    188. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      omfg he’s impossible to trade

      With @wojespn, Knicks’ offer sheet to Tim Hardaway Jr. contains a 15% trade kicker, league sources told ESPN. 4th year is a player option.

    189. Brian Cronin

      Are we trying to fuck over Atlanta somehow?

      That’s what I’m clinging to, that they somehow know Atlanta is going to match and they just wanted to, I dunno, do THJ a solid by getting him a big deal while also fucking over Atlanta?

    190. kevin5318

      Some reports saying Atlanta intends to match. So hopefully Mills was just bored and wanted to fuck with Atlanta for some reason.

    191. Brian Cronin

      Silver lining: that deal means we have to renounce Rose.

      They have enough cap room to still give Rose $15 million or so if the Hawks match.

    192. TheOakmanCometh

      In what god damn universe is Tim Hardaway worth anything close to $71 million? How could anyone think that is remotely within the realm of what he’s worth?????

    193. ess-dog

      Yeah I meant if they don’t. But thinking the Hawks will match? Doesn’t negate the stupidity though.

    194. geo

      man, fuck ricky rubio, fuck jeff teague, fuck george hill, fuck teodesic – what this team really needs is another streakey 2 guard that can’t handle the ball…

      just cuz we are absolutely positive we have the right “key” piece – we’ll give him a deal that guarantees he retires a knick….

    195. DRed

      We traded Hardaway for Grant who we traded to get Rose who we’re renouncing to sign Hardaway

    196. Bruno Almeida

      I think the Hawks will match indeed but even if they do, I kinda lost all hope I still had on these clowns to not trip all over themselves.

    197. ess-dog

      Just saw this on another board:

      It all came full circle, lmfao
      1.Trade THJ for a first round pick
      2.Draft Jerian Grant
      3.Trade Jerian Grant for Derrick Rose
      4.Offer Hardaway $70m and don’t resign Rose

      LOL

    198. TheOakmanCometh

      All that discipline for nothing. This goddamn team. We can’t even get one sane offseason.

    199. er

      Tommy Beer ? @TommyBeer
      Knicks fans can hope Hawks match, but that’s unlikely

      Way too much $$ for Hardaway and ATL also owes Bazemore $54 million over next 3 years

    200. d-mar

      We traded Hardaway for Grant who we traded to get Rose who we’re renouncing to sign Hardaway

      That’s the Knicks in a knutshell.

    201. er

      Tony Williams @TBone8
      Hard to imagine this not happening. I’m told THJ is “praying” #Hawks don’t match. & hearing ATL will likely oblige his wishes. #NYK #Knicks
      11:28 PM – 6 Jul 2017

    202. Totes McGoats

      I give up.
      What.
      The.
      Holy.
      Hell.
      They don’t want Lee at his salary, but offer TH2 71 over 4 years? I get that he’s young and improving, but no. Not at that salary. I see why they would want him, presumably to add scoring in lieu of having Melo. But we would be paying him lime a core player when he’s 4th option at best. Why would you wreck your cap for him? Hopefully ATL matches, but given our luck- they probably won’t. Sheesh..I wanted the team to make a move, but this one reeks of paranoia

    203. Bruno Almeida

      at the very least this has to mean they’ve got a Courtney Lee trade on deck, right? They can’t be THIS fucking stupid right???

    204. KnickfaninNJ

      What a disaster. There was a reason THJ was still available. Memo to Knicks, just because you gave cap room doesn’t mean you have to use it.

    205. er

      To be fair Timmy is a lot better than when he was a Knick. But I don’t think he’s this much better. And wtf was wrong with Courtney Lee or Justin Holliday signed a 2/9.

      Weird ass move bro.

    206. GoNyGoNyGo

      This is crazy. Stupid. Crazy. What the hell is Timmy thinking? Signing with the Knicks for any amount of money will destroy his career!

    207. thenoblefacehumper

      So the Knicks might be paying around $30m AAV for below average SG production for the next three years.

      I really don’t even know what to say. Were like a week into the post-Phil Jackson era and have already made what would’ve been one of his dumbest moves.

    208. Bruno Almeida

      and again the Knicks seem to be bidding against themselves on a player no one even has shown interest, on a team that will look to tank and won’t ever want to commit this much money into a mediocre SG….

    209. Brian Cronin

      They definitely have a trade for Lee lined up

      That’d be logical, but, well, you probably shouldn’t bother applying logic to these people. :)

    210. DRed

      Between Melo, Lee, Hardaway and Noah we could be spending something like 70 million and not one of them projects to be much better than average

    211. TheOakmanCometh

      @266

      Absolutely right Bruno. Bidding against ourselves. This is a buyer’s market, and we’re one of the few teams left with cap space. So naturally we offer 50% more than Hardaway’s agent could possibly even ask for.

      What a misreading. What a disaster. What a stupid, stupid franchise.

    212. BigBlueAL

      It’s very rare that I’m speechless about a move but I’m fucking speechless right now.

    213. Bruno Almeida

      @267

      by all stats his shooting has progressed nicely in the last two years, hes around a decent .560 ts% mark which is much better tha any Waiters season… that said, he’s not good at pretty much every other aspect of the game, which makes it a vintage Knicks signing.

    214. Bruno Almeida

      @273

      man, if the reports are correct he even has a trade kicker AND the last year is a player option… how the fuck does he warrant this type of money plus all the benefits????

    215. stratomatic

      The Knicks basically traded Lopez and Grant for Hardaway and Daymean Dotson with 1 year of Rose and Holiday in between (more or less).

    216. d-mar

      We could have done something creative like signing Teodosic, but instead we offered huge $$ to a player no one else wants.

      Mind boggling.

    217. bockadoo

      This HAS to be a cruel joke. We MUST have a Lee trade ready to go. Even if that’s true isn’t J Simmons much better for less $? Who the hell else was even considering signing Hardaway? This is just too much to take. It really is.

    218. d-mar

      Woj was just on espn and could barely keep a straight face describing the Hardaway deal

    219. The Infamous Cdiggy

      I don’t get it. I don’t get it at all.

      Forget the amount of money for a second: what purpose or need does Tim Jr fill on this team?? And why 4 years??? And a trade kicker???? I don’t think Phil would’ve done THAT even if he was drunk and high as fuck.

    220. TheOakmanCometh

      Thank god we’re a laughingstock again. It felt weird to spend two weeks not being ridiculed.

    221. Brian Cronin

      man, if the reports are correct he even has a trade kicker AND the last year is a player option… how the fuck does he warrant this type of money plus all the benefits????

      It’s become standard in a lot of these RFA offer sheets to make it as painful as possible for the original team to match. The Nets did the same thing in the Porter offer sheet.

    222. The Infamous Cdiggy

      This HAS to be a cruel joke. We MUST have a Lee trade ready to go.

      Reminds me of the Ewing trade when we got Glen Rice (who was redundant for us at the time) and we were supposed to flip him for Mutumbo bc David Faulk (agent of Ewing and Mutumbo) was gonna do us a solid. Never materialized.

    223. er

      It’s become standard in a lot of these RFA offer sheets to make it as painful as possible for the original team to match.

      ****clears throat****

      Houston and Jeremy Lin

    224. Mike R

      They just can’t help themselves. They really can’t. Just when we thought things were starting to stabilize. My only reaction was to laugh when I saw this break They have to make a move just to fit this into the cap. I didn’t think there was any player left they could give this bad of a contract to not even rose. We fucking draft this guy trade him for what ends up being nothing and then bid against ourselves just like when we signed Noah last year. Now we have two horrible contracts for the next 3-4 years. No way Atlanta matches. Is there anyone who will defend this move? I doubt it. I’d love to hear a positive take.

    225. stratomatic

      Assuming Atlanta does not match, I suspect they have something line up to move Lee (perhaps a veteran PG will come back). Daymean Dotson will be the backup SG (they are already negotiating with him I heard). Maybe DD can also play some SF. He’s 6′ 6″, rebounds, and seems to have the body for it.

    226. The Infamous Cdiggy

      The Nets did the same thing in the Porter offer sheet.

      Except: A. The Nets are bereft of talent and draft picks, and Porter would’ve been a good player for them, and B. Washington would want to retain him because they’re trying to contend.

      Why the hell do the Hawks need Timmy?

    227. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Dolan’s Razor is real, in case we all didn’t know.

    228. stratomatic

      The draft went so well. Things have been going to hell in a hand basket since Phil was fired. :-)

    229. Mike R

      I don’t think Phil would have even done this one. I mean he probably would have maxed out rose by now and traded
      Porzingis So he can start rambis at power forward so maybe we’re still better off

    230. er

      This just highlights my problems with this team. The Knicks could have been a much better franchise since stat and melo came. They lucked into one good year because they had good vets. But they were OLD vets. Then they blow that model up to get Bargnani for a 1.

      I’m happy. I can just sit back and shake my head. I hope KP gtfo

    231. bockadoo

      The one constant through all these years of embarrassing incompetence has been Dolan. We will be a laughingstock doing things no one else in the league would do until he is gone. It is very depressing. This is the worst move yet. Just when there was a ray of hope with Dotson looking good and no dumbass moves for a few weeks. Even Noah played defense and rebounded.

    232. ClashFan

      Well, NOW we know why they didn’t offer Justin Holiday a contract…

      Hmm. Holiday for 2 years and $9m or Tim Hardaway 4 years and $71m.

      I’m going to have a hard time falling asleep now…

    233. Mike R

      I feel like the most hardaway would have gotten would have been similar to the waiters deal. 4 yrs /48-52 mil. But 4/71??? Who the hell were we bidding against. Being a knicks fan is like it being April fools everyday. Except the joke is real. And not funny.

    234. Totes McGoats

      You know what this reminds me of?

      Allan Houston’s 2nd Knicks contract. Except he was a much better player. We had a better in-house option and still ended up bidding against ourselves and giving H20 a cap-crushing deal. Granted, the deal’s not official so there’s still hope. But does anyone REALLY expect a rebuilding Hawks squad to invest that much in TH2 when they are already over-paying Bazemore?

    235. TheOakmanCometh

      Atlanta won’t match. How many times have we sat here and prayed for someone or something to bail our front office out of their own incompetence? It never happens.

    236. Mike R

      @304
      At least Alan Houston was on some pretty good teams that were fun to watch for the most part.

      If the knicks were so set out to spend our cap space this year there’s about 18 moves that they should have made that would have been better then this one. We could have gotten George hill for less. Or like many have mentioned earlier gotten teodisic and still had some room for another player or two. Just watched that guys highlights he is an unreal passer. Completely plays no d but he is some ball distributor. Good signing for the LA.

      When’s the last time anyone said that about the knicks. Like “wow the knicks made a good signing today”- said no one ever.

    237. Mike R

      this was such a panic button reaction. Hardaway was probably one of the only free agents who actually wanted to come to this disfunctional disaster so the front office (whoever that may be) said fuck it pick em up!!

    238. Cock Jowles, who remembers that reub predicted 55 wins

      Here’s some data that shows how Timmy was playing much better in the 2nd half of the season. Look at the Monthly data.

      Cool. You willing to wager $18M AAV in cap space that that “trending upward” isn’t just statistical noise but is sustainable and objectively real?

      Yeah? Okay, how about no? No.

      Fuck this fucking team. Dolan can drink bleach, and reub, if you’re lurking (you’re probably not, since you can’t troll anymore), fuck you too. Fuck you.

    239. ClashFan

      I really need to watch more non-Knick games. I wasn’t aware that THJ was on the cusp of stardom…

      I keep staring at his stats and trying to see that. He doesn’t appear to rebound or pass well. I guess his defense has improved, but he’s not good at it. He scored more last year, but is not a real good shooter. He had a nice 2nd half, but was in a contract year, so…

    240. Mike R

      Id much rather keep lee with 3 years left and 4 million less aav then this hardaway contract.

    241. Jack Bauer

      Of all the stupid moves, I didn’t see this coming. 71 Million for THJR round 2? Holy shit, why would do something idiotic like that?!! Just when I was reading they might acquire Smart who’s making 4.5 million and thinking, yes they finally get it.

      The Knicks are such a doomed franchise and us fans get our hopes dashed to shreds yet again.

      We need Reub to come back and somehow put a happy face on this acquisition.

    242. Ntilakilla

      Over the past 16 seasons, the Knicks are 50 games worse than Sacramento. Signings like this are the reason why.

    243. bidiong

      Are you fucking kidding me on Tim Hardaway Junior. Jesus Christ! Fuck you Knicks.

    244. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      And yall said you wouldn’t give up a protected first for Ujiri smh

    245. JK47

      We suck forever. Until James Dolan dies, we suck.

      Also, Steve Mills, if you’re reading this, eat a bag of dicks.

    246. geo

      atlanta won’t match…kind of hoping they bring rose back and keep melo now – it’ll give me even more reason not to wanna watch…

      how is it possible for a room with more than one person in it to make this decision…

    247. Ingmarrrr

      I can’t wait for Z-Man and Frank to start spinning this as a good move, and for charley-reub to announce this as another step in our road to greatness. Thanks Jim!

    248. TheOakmanCometh

      Like, why not give Dotson $25m annually? I know we don’t have to, and there’s no reason to pay him more than the rookie scale, but fuck it, why not?

    249. BigBlueAL

      This tweet from Kevin Arnovitz pretty much sums it up:

      Hawks were thinking something in the neighborhood of $45M for Hardaway. This latest act of Knickery should make the call easier.

    250. Dough Chew, Ntank Commander

      It’s morbidly fascinating how so many different personnel in the Knicks org keep making the same Dolanesque mistakes of negotiating against themselves in player acquisitions. Did Dolan kick down the door and insist on working the phones himself on this one.

    251. ClashFan

      @326
      If the Knicks had offered THJ that $45m over 4 years, I’d have gulped. $71m is just insane. Massive overpay.

    252. Bruno Almeida

      I know you *have* to overpay to get RFA’ s Brian, but 30 million more than the fucking Hawks were maybe kinda sorta thinking about offering him?

      now I’m sure they’ll fucking re-sign Rose or get Rondo and this team will be an unwatchable mess that somehow wins 30 games again and drafts 8th in a 4 player draft, holy hell.

    253. BigBlueAL

      Right, I’d have hated signing him to a 45m-4yr offer sheet but at least that’s basically his value. It would’ve made no sense for the Knicks to sign him to that offer sheet but if another team did I would’ve said OK makes sense since TH Jr has proven to be a decent, fairly efficient scorer who is still relatively young and he could be a good fit for some teams.

      But 71m?? From the team that traded him away 2 years ago and needs a PG not another SG?? Makes no fucking sense at all.

    254. KBrazilian

      The Hawks are tanking this year. They’re not matching this at all. Unbelievable.

    255. bidiong

      “X team makes dumbest free agent signing of the off-season….” Knicks: Hold my beer….

    256. KBrazilian

      I remember I started to read this blog just to laugh at how bitter you guys were about the Knicks. Man, never thought I would still be here so many years after. The FO never ceases to make things worse, wtf…

    257. KBrazilian

      Well, they say NYC is the city that never sleeps, so the Knicks are just trying to make sure their fans can’t do it tonight ¬¬

    258. JK47

      Dolan:

      “Yeah, Tim Hardaway, he’s good. I’ve heard of him. I remember his dad. Offer him $71 million.”

      (toots a sick riff on the harmonica)

    259. Ben R

      The Knicks ineptitude is next level. No one even saw this coming. A 30 million dollar overpay for a player that doesn’t even fill a need. I was the captain of ship fire Phil Jackson but man I think our free agency would have been better with him here. He was at least looking at Hill and Teodosic. Devil you know I guess.

      This is incredible. THJr is a solid player and if we didn’t have a bunch of 2 guards already I’d welcome a resonable 3 year 40 million dollar contract. But 4 years 71 million dollars. Fantastic.

      Still no PG. Awesome.

    260. Brian Cronin

      And yall said you wouldn’t give up a protected first for Ujiri smh

      To be fair, I think Toronto was prepared to really rake the Knicks over the coals if they wanted Ujiri. I’m talking multiple picks and I bet they would have balked at lottery protection on the first rounder.

    261. Brian Cronin

      I was saying the other day that we really won’t know what kind of executive Mills will be until he makes his first move. He was saying all of the right things, but until the actual first move happens, it’s all theoretical. Well…this is not off to the best of starts for him. There’s something about Dolan that makes GMs d-u-m dumb.

      Or maybe he is just bad at picking out good GMs?

    262. Ben R

      If we didn’t have Noah clogging up our cap and didn’t already have Lee and had a starting PG then I could maybe forgive the overpay, I think he’s worth 12-14 million a year but considering our gaping hole at PG and the fact that this is the last cap space we’ll have for 3 years it’s really problematic.

      For those wanting to bring Crabbe in, THJr is a good step better than Crabbe.

    263. Grocer

      I was having a really good day. Nice dinner, listened to some records on an excellent system, stop off for a night cap “so what do you think of Hardaway?” Fuck this shit. The Knicks are a drain on my life.

    264. JK47

      The point of bringing in Crabbe would have been to rid ourselves of a previous ghastly mistake, the MegaMaxMelo fiasco. Instead we just gave out an even shittier contract than the Crabbe contract and we’re still stuck with Melo’s stank ass.

      #DolansRazor

    265. Ben R

      I’m not defending it. It is a truly awful move. I’m just trying to come to terms because that’s what we do as Knick fans.

      As for Melo, if we are patient we will be able to move him for a better prize than a bad contract from Portland,

    266. iserp

      OMG, I hope Atlanta feels the need to stick with their young guys after parting with Howard, Millsap.

    267. JK47

      As for Melo, if we are patient we will be able to move him for a better prize than a bad contract from Portland,

      Obviously you are not familiar with Dolan’s Razor.

    268. er

      U guys realize we are the cubs right? Awful team In a top3 market that has loyal fans shelling out uber dollars to see a shit product. What’s 108 years from 1972?

    269. Donnie Walsh

      Hmm. Holiday for 2 years and $9m or Tim Hardaway 4 years and $71m.

      Yeah, but Hardaway is 6’8″ according to some, and the East is big, man.

    270. KnickfaninNJ

      Clearly the trouble with the Knicks is not that they don’t have enough good players. That doesn’t matter. What matters is that they weren’t spending enough money.

    271. JK47

      On the downside, we signed Tim Hardaway Jr. to a contract that is the laughingstock of the entire sports world.

      On the upside, we now know for sure that Steve Mills is a blithering fucking idiot, and we don’t have to question that fact anymore.

    272. Farfa

      I still can’t wrap my head around such a godawful offer. Are we really destined to be this incompetent for so long?

    273. damase

      When I first read it, I thought “well, who knew that Tim Hardaway now is a GM/POBO and worth that money? Good for him!”
      Then I realized it was THJunior…
      (speechless)

    274. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      There are so many bad parts of this deal, but the absolute worst one may be the 15% kicker that makes him all but untradeable

      For the love of god please move Lee for something, anything after all this.

    275. Bo Nateman

      We had five days of hope that this franchise had rebooted and was on a rational future path. Crushed.
      This transaction begs for a management accounting as to the rationale for this gross and superfluous overpay.
      How much gross incompetence does a franchise have to indulge in before its fans are sufficiently alienated so that they abandon it.
      ( I need an intervention)

    276. KnickfaninNJ

      I looked up who drafted THJ and found it was Grunwald. But Grunwald was removed as GM and Mills took over before the season started. Maybe Grunwald thinks he’s fixing Phil’s mistakes. But it still makes no sense to me.

    277. #fireRambis

      all this time and this THJ bomb! 4/71… gee either he must have a great agent or whoever is at the other end of the table is dumb

    278. Frank

      I can’t wait for Z-Man and Frank to start spinning this as a good move, and for charley-reub to announce this as another step in our road to greatness. Thanks Jim!

      You’ll be waiting a very long time then. W. T. F.

      this is better than the Noah signing. There- that’s my best effort.

      What about his whole thing about signing two way players?!?! Was that just a sound bite?

    279. Bob Newman

      Here let me try:

      Seems like he got better since NY. They love him in ATL. He’s arguably as good as Carmelo at this point, and trending upward (TS%, WS, shooting %). A bad contract, but for a potentially good player.

      This sucks…

    280. Z-man

      Alright, I’ll try….even though this is totally unjustifiable.

      On the court, TH2 is a 25yo league-average 2-guard who has shown improvement. He has a WS48 of .107, WP48 of .104 (20th among SGs with 500+ minutes), and a PER of 15.2. His VORP is 0.9 and his BPM is -0.3 based on his bad defense being slightly worse than his good offense. His defensive metrics are trending upward.

      We’ve essentially signed a 25yo version of Courtney Lee. Or a reciprocal of Marcus Smart. He’s probably worth $10-12 million AAV in this market. And clearly, Atlanta would match an offer in that range, so if you really wanted him, you would have to significantly overpay. But by $5-7 mill per? And with a trade kicker?? Makes no sense. Only a breakout to the next level, e.g. to a TS% of .600+, would justify this deal in hindsight. Here’s to hoping for a breakout! (I’m breaking out in hives as I’m writing this)

      Some added rationalization:
      This deal preempts re-signing Derrick Rose, or overpaying for Rondo. So the “anyone but Rose/Rondo” crowd should be happy!
      He’s not Bargnani-bad, or Noah-crippled, or Lee-old. It’s actually theoretically possible that he will turn out to be worth the money in the 4th year of this deal.

    Comments are closed.