Knicks Morning News (2016.05.22)

  • [New York Times] Raptors 99, Cavaliers 84 | Cleveland leads series, 2-1: Raptors End Cavaliers’ Postseason Win Streak (Sun, 22 May 2016 04:21:36 GMT)

    DeMar Rozan and Bismack Biyombo led Toronto to a victory in Game 3 of the Eastern Conference finals.

  • [New York Times] DeRozan, Raptors End Cavaliers’ Streak With 99-84 Win (Sun, 22 May 2016 04:33:36 GMT)

    Cleveland’s perfect playoff run went south in the north.

  • [New York Times] DeRozan, Biyombo Give Raptors New Life (Sun, 22 May 2016 05:00:27 GMT)

    The Toronto Raptors crushed any ideas that they were going to be swept by the Cleveland Cavaliers on Saturday.

  • [New York Times] Raptors Get on the Board With Game 3 Win Over Cavaliers (Sun, 22 May 2016 03:21:28 GMT)

    The Toronto Raptors got their first win of the Eastern Conference Finals on Saturday with DeMar DeRozan scoring 32 points in a 99-84 Game 3 win over the Cleveland Cavaliers.

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Melo: Hornacek's fast offense 'a new opportunity' (Sun, 22 May 2016 00:01:02 EST)

    Melo: Hornacek's fast offense 'a new opportunity'

  • [New York Post] How Mets booth both mentioned and ignored Bartolo’s family scandal (Sun, 22 May 2016 00:31:24 -0400)

    Tag, you're "it”! Bartolo Colon was having a miserable night on the mound Wednesday. With two out in the top of the third, the Nationals, up 1-0, had the bases loaded. Colon was wild. He had just hit a batter and, as Gary Cohen pointed out, had walked consecutive batters for the first time in…

  • [New York Post] ‘Bulls–t’ critics haven’t killed Knicks’ triangle: Phil Jackson pal (Sun, 22 May 2016 00:09:55 -0400)

    Is the triangle dead under soon-to-be-named head coach Jeff Hornacek? Not entirely, said Charley Rosen, one of Phil Jackson's longtime friends who has been in contact with the Zen Master in recent days. "It's hard to imagine Phil caving in and abandoning a system that is entirely flexible and he's had so much success in…

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    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    122 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2016.05.22)”

    1. That Charley Rosen story linked to above is hilarious. He is SO bitter that people have stopped hailing Phil as an unequivocal genius.

      But it also reads like he may not be as plugged in as he used to be.

      And Melo’s on board with the hiring, which is good news if, like Brian, you believe he’s never leaving no matter what.

    2. Well its good to see that somebody is sane. I hope Rosen is correct and heavy amounts of triangle involved, because we don’t need to see more of that pure pick copycat nonsense.

    3. Wroten is the key to everything, if he’s healthy in summer league it takes pressure off the Knicks to get a guard and the Jerian Grant experiment can continue. Also the idea of taps playing the center is bad and unlikley so I’d put that one away.

    4. Interesting discussion here about Seth Curry because Phil’s gonna be faced with a bleak free agency landscape and will have to get creative and maybe take some risks. BUT I think y’all have got the big picture wrong – even Reub! A starting lineup of Grant/Lance T/Melo/KP/Lopez will be dynamite when guided by our new Horn of Plenty. Grant plays like he did the last few games in a new more dynamic offense. Lance hits 3s and plays defense like last season – he’d be a perfect fit at the 2 for our new offense as a 3&D SG who’s able to attack closeouts. KP makes some improvement, maybe even makes a Pau or Dirk jump. Lopez just plays the way he did last season (would be nice if he improved his jump shot since Brook’s FG% inside 15ft is much better than Robin’s). And then there’s Melo. Hmm, well here we just have to hope that his shooting woes were due to injury and his improvement near the end will carry through to this season. Bottom line: expect a jump like Phoenix made in Hornacek’s first season.

      What about our bench? Well we have Gallo/Willy/Calderon/KOQ/Wroten, all serviceable as bench players. But I would use our 3m cash and try to flip Calderon/KOQ for some 2nd round picks. For example, Calderon would be a nice piece for 76ers. There might be other deals like KOQ for Sefolosha worth exploring. We’d then have close to 40m in free cap. Hornacek could wow one of Fournier/Tyler/Delly to sign an offer sheet but teams would probably match. What then do we do with all that cap? I’ve been talking for ages about giving Pau a sweetheart 1 year deal. Let him enjoy NYC and mentor his fellow Spaniard. Give out sweet 1 year deals to anyone who’ll take it (Noah, Turner) and there’s reason to believe some players might be interested given the cap jump the following year. Phil might even be able to attach a team option if $$s are high enough to some “intriguing” players like Dwill last year.

    5. If your looking for an established veteran, you don’t pick Seth Curry. Collision and Teague are more likely, if they want to get a guard. The media would kill the Seth Curry choice with a, Seth who? I told you to get an established vet.

    6. Winning the Mega Millions this week is the key to everything for me. If I can just get disgustingly rich I won’t have to worry about making money anymore and I can focus on maneuvering to become GM of the Knicks.

    7. Wroten is the key to everything

      A starting lineup of Grant/Lance T/Melo/KP/Lopez will be dynamite when guided by our new Horn of Plenty.

      morning knicks.

    8. How much 2 did Lance play last year? I remember it on occasion, especially when Afflalo was hurt, but him as a really big two doesn’t seem an optimal use of his skills. (Assuming his shot is for real and not a Landry half season mirage.)

    9. I like Lance Thomas coming off of the bench. The best way to get this team to the next level is to sign the best SG that we can get and also add Pao. We can roll with Grant/Wroten/Calderon/Galloway/Trice at the point for at least one more year….especially with a new coach who knows how to optimize their talents.

      SG’s:

      Derozan
      Batum
      Beal
      Fournier
      Crabbe
      Bazemore
      Stephenson
      Turner

    10. Fournier will need to be overpaid and the deal structured in a way where he wouldn’t be such a valuable trade asset if Orlando matched, but I think he’s definitely gettable.

      I like Crabbe, but I don’t want to give him the money required to pull that off. Too many question marks around him for me to feel comfortable with that.

    11. Assuming Williams opts out – and I can’t imagine he won’t – what’s the most you’d be comfortable paying him? Again, we need to sign a wing (a couple, really), and give raises to Galloway and Lance (or else replace them), and bring over Willie from Spain, and not screw over our cap situation for next summer… And if you assume KP will play more 5 and Melo more 4, how much do we need Derrick?

    12. Wroten is the key to everything

      We are doomed….

      Look, I’m optimistic we’ll have a decent team next year and a good team the year after, but face it, the pickings are slim among guards this year. While Zanzibar seems to be enjoying some serious morning bud, the idea of punting again with short term deals is not a bad one.

      This DEFINITELY is the new Knicks: all that cap space, and no one to spend it on!

    13. Stephenson, with all of his travels, is still only 25. He may be the best value of the bunch. And he drove the Spurs crazy in this year’s playoffs. He was unstoppable. Put him together with a guard friendly coach and he could really fly!

      Plus there should be enough left over to sign Pao too!

      If we have this team:

      Melo/Thomas
      KP/DWill/Hernangomez
      Rolo/Pao/O’Quinn
      Stephenson/Afflalo/Galloway
      Grant/Calderon/Wroten/

    14. If Wroten is the key to everything we are really and truly fucked.

      Why does anyone think 35 year old Pau (not Pao) Gasol would sign here instead of with a good team to try and win another championship?

    15. SG’s:

      Derozan
      Batum
      Beal
      Fournier
      Crabbe
      Bazemore
      Stephenson
      Turner

      Welcome to NY, Evan Turner.

    16. We just hired a coach that wants to play faster. Signing the unathletic, slow as shit and permanently pouty Pau Gasol to any type of deal is flat out terrible and stupid.

    17. Pau (not Pao) would be reuniting with Phil in a system that he thrived in and could help promulgate (not promelgate).

      And to minimize his great talents is pretty dumb.

    18. Pau (not Pao) would be reuniting with Phil in a system that he thrived in and could help promulgate (not promelgate).

      And to minimize his great talents is pretty dumb.

      We’re not going to be playing in a grind it out bottom-3 pace offense next year. Pau doesn’t fit.

      And yes, I will shit on his “great talents” because he’s not close to the player he was in LA. He’s not nearly as efficient offensively, he’s totally immobile and a complete liability in space defensively and has a detrimental effect to team rebounding when he’s on the floor despite his gaudy individual counting stats.

      Fuck signing Pau Gasol. We don’t need to spend another dollar on old, unathletic big men. He addresses none of our issues.

    19. Why does anyone think 35 year old Pau (not Pao) Gasol would sign here instead of with a good team to try and win another championship?

      $20m and kung pao chicken. Pau doesn’t want to live in Oklahoma City or Texas. He’s attracted to the culture and cuisine of a city like NY/Chicago/LA/SF. Would GSW be able pay him more than we would? Does he even fit on the Clippers?

      Derozan
      Batum
      Beal
      Fournier
      Crabbe
      Bazemore
      Stephenson
      Turner

      Not wise to spend big bucks on SGs in general (ask Mavs/Raptors) especially when Lance T would be a better fit than all of them at 1/3 the price.

      While Zanzibar seems to be enjoying some serious morning bud, the idea of punting again with short term deals is not a bad one.

      I’m as sober as a Mormon in a monastery. Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer (Dalai Lama) Offer Pau 20m and Jennings or Turner or someone else 15m 1 year deals. Get some 2nd round picks and let Gaines go to work. Protect our cap and evaluate our players next season under a smarter coach and better system and then take action.

      1: Grant/Jennings/Wroten
      2: Lance/Gallo
      3: Melo/Lance
      4: KP/Pau/Melo/Willy
      5: Lopez/Pau/Willy

    20. @18 he’s younger than grant and is probably better right than both grant and Galloway. then there’s Jose..

    21. How are we doomed with wroten? He’s better than most of twos that are popular. His game is established, he doesn’t shoot well, but he makes up for it by passing and scoring in transition. In basketball every player doesn’t have to be perfect, if you think he’s going to be ineffective because of his percentage than you don’t know basketball. He went to the free throw line, Allen Iverson style. Ironically he fits with Hornacek , because he likes multiple point guards. Well now he has a big one. New York is trying to fix his jumpshot, but if he just gets healthy you have a consistent 2guard.

    22. @rama Just to be clear, my dalai lama quote (Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer) was not meant to tell you to be quiet. It was meant to convey that sometimes not taking action is the best action i.e., knicks shouldn’t spend for the sake of spending and overpay for players we’re not sure we even need.

      We just hired a coach that wants to play faster.

      Maybe maybe not. He played faster in Phoenix because he had 3 guards who happened to be his 3 best players. Do you wanna limit Lopez’s minutes in order to play faster? Maybe Lopez’s defense, offensive rebounds, screening ability, efficient hook shot outweigh any benefit of playing faster?

    23. @22

      Tony Wroten is consistently bad. There’s a shot that lower usage with shift to a secondary ball handler role with some of his looks being created for him rather than self created can make him more efficient and cut down his turnover rate. There’s also a chance he can get better at shooting from the field and thef ree throw line and finishing at the rim. At age 22 that’s all very possible, but as things stand Tony Wroten is not a good basketball player and only does bad things consistently.

    24. By any measure, Wroten is a terrible player. A career TS of .488% doesn’t magically get better because he “gets to the free throw line” – it takes into account him getting to the free throw line. His turnover percentage has consistently been high. There are no indicators that he is an NBA-caliber player except that some front offices have believed him to be.

      I am fine with the buy low signing. I just don’t believe we are underpaying.

      Lance Stephenson, that’s another story. Good call, reub. Phil has done a great job bringing high character to the locker room, which makes me think we can add one headcase and be OK. I overlooked him on that list above, but he might actually be a great value signing for us…Shumpert if Shumpert were actually good for more than a few games in Texas.

      Zanzibar, did you watch Lance T play the 2? He is not a 2. He is a 3, possibly even a 4 if he isn’t quick enough after his knee surgery. He is not the answer at 2.

    25. @23 thanks for the clarification, Zanzibar. A pretty gentle cut if it was one, so I wasn’t offended, but glad to hear it wasn’t a cut.

      With Ted Nelson, though, silence definitely was the best answer…

    26. Maybe maybe not. He played faster in Phoenix because he had 3 guards who happened to be his 3 best players. Do you wanna limit Lopez’s minutes in order to play faster? Maybe Lopez’s defense, offensive rebounds, screening ability, efficient hook shot outweigh any benefit of playing faster?

      Lopez is better at basketball right now than Pau and he complements KP and Melo much better than Pau does currently. He also played in much faster paced systems than we operated in last year in both Phoenix and Portland and was an effective player for both teams.

      I want Lopez getting his 28-30 MPG a night and then I’d like KP at C for 10 minutes (maybe more depending on matchup and effectiveness) leaving some time for either Willy or KOQ to get burn there.

    27. Stephenson, with all of his travels, is still only 25. He may be the best value of the bunch. And he drove the Spurs crazy in this year’s playoffs.

      He also drives teammates and coaches crazy. Please, no Lance.

    28. Wroten is too young to be called consistently bad, and on a team where he can play off double teams. Id trust Phil and Hornacek more than I trust general opinion, you act like he’s there to be the lead player.
      You guys want Seth Curry and he’s barely done anything.

    29. sugarslim, read before you comment. I specifically said that Seth Curry would not be a good signing, at length.

    30. Trusting the starting 2 to LT would be very risky in everything except money. You’re banking on him shooting again like he did last year, which may have been a fluke. Then there’s the problem that, finally playing lots of minutes, he broke down with a knee problem. How would he fare chasing around 2 guards every game? Not well, I’d guess.

      I’d definitely look to retain him as a 6th or 7th man, though. Perhaps the Knicks can get a bit of a “home town” discount for keeping him last year. A one year deal would be ideal, but with all the money this offseason, some team might get stupid and give him a 3 year deal….if I’m Phil, I pass on that and keep some financial flexibility. 2017 looms.

      As for Gasol, that seems highly unlikely. There’s Lopez, KP, OQ, and Hernangomez, apparently, to handle 4/5 duties. Melo can play some 4, too. Just no need there. Maybe San Antonio would be a good fit for him if they can’t get KD. At this time, I’d guess KD stays put.

      A couple of wings are needed: a starting 2 guard or a swingman. Calderon could be a combo guy off the bench if not traded.

      We keep talking about free agency with good reason, but I wonder if a trade or sign and trade might be in the offing. So far Phil has resisted trading any #1 picks, but that could change. Also, perhaps Calderon (expiring, and he still can shoot), OQ (young and affordable), and maybe even Hernangomez (young, skilled big man) could be dangled in trade talks to get a 2 guard. As some have speculated, maybe even Lopez (he’s now a GREAT VALUE) could be offered? Now, if Lopez is dealt (but I hope we just keep him), then perhaps a Gasol could be considered, but surely he’ll sign with a contender?

    31. The most precious commodity in basketball is possessions. You really want to protect your possessions and get the most out of them.

      Tony Wroten excels at giving away possessions, both by turning the ball over (4.4 TOV/36) and by shooting the ball with horrendous efficiency (.443 eFG%) at a shockingly high rate (28.3% USG%). He is a black hole of basketball, an incredibly detrimental player.

      “Tony Wroten is good because he gets to the line” is the new “Bargs is good because he helps with floor spacing.”

    32. Tony Wroten is better than nobody, and he’s a guy I’m really interested in. He sucks though. Anybody who can’t see how a supremely inefficient shooter who is also a turnover machine is a horrible basketball player needs to focus more on the numbers. He’s a great athlete, he gets into the paint at league-leading rates, he has good size, and he’ll get you some good assists. But he’ll also go 4 for 12 with 4 turnovers in 28 minutes. He’s very likely to cost you 10 plays a game with his turnovers and inability to make shots. He’s a very long shot at being successful, but he’s a low-cost player who is worth a risk. I’d rather let him battle out a starting job with Grant and Calderon than give an 8 figure contract to an older and injured guy like Jennings or Chalmers.

      I think our best bet is Ty Lawson if he comes cheap. He’s been great up until last year and he’ll come cheap. I’m worried about his alcohol abuse, but I think he would be willing to sign a one year prove it deal on a team where he just has to be himself again. He’s guaranteed 2,000 minutes as a starter in a point guard’s offense if he’s the Ty Lawson he was his entire career before he was traded from Denver.

      Of course I want Seth Curry, but that restricted free agency status really throws a snag on things. Ultimately you can’t spend anything over $6 million on him, and Sacramento is likely to match that. So Ty Lawson is what I’m stuck with.

    33. I can guarantee you that Phil specifically went after wroten for his passing, and he’s working hard to improve

    34. Yeah, Wroten can’t be counted on for anything. He’s worth taking a flyer on. Perhaps some of his horrible inefficiencies come from the situation he played in. Maybe he can adjust and mature in a new situation. But maybe not.

      Ty Lawson might be worth a flyer on a show me 1 year deal. I wonder if Chalmers might be gotten on a one year deal, too, due to his injury. There were rumblings last year that Rubio might be available. I’d guess that Hornacek might covet him, if not Phil. Then, there’s the issue of what Minnesota would want in comp. Probably way more than the Knicks should pay.

      Get the 2 guard. Give Grant a chance. Maybe Wroten sticks and earns some time as a backup 2. Calderon can help off the bench. Target 2017 for a PG, if needed.

    35. If the team’s success next season rests on the improvement of a PG already on the roster, his name is Jerian Grant, who should be MUCH more comfortable in Hornacek’s offense than the Triangle. His shooting is a concern, but the pick and roll is where he plays best, and his game is much more well rounded than Wroten’s. Im fine getting a lottery ticket in Wroten, but Grant is the far more likely of the two to be a kefir starting nba point.

    36. I don’t see Wroten playing pg. I see him playing sg, and allowing the Knicks to let Grant prove himself.

    37. Zanzibar, did you watch Lance T play the 2? He is not a 2. He is a 3, possibly even a 4 if he isn’t quick enough after his knee surgery. He is not the answer at 2.

      I don’t recall Lance ever playing the 2. I just checked BRef and they showed him playing it 2% of the time. I’m presuming his knee sprain is not serious but, yeah, it’s a concern if it is. And his 3FG% might have been a blip. SG/SF are morphing into a single position and I don’t think Lance would have trouble keeping up with most SGs. But for 6-7m, I’m willing to take those risks. I’m willing to overpay for a young guard like Fournier/Johnson/Delly but history tells us they’re long shots. Kerr discovered penicillin (i.e., accidental) when Bogut was injured and he listened to one of his coaches who suggested trying Draymond at center. The rest is history. Even if Lance at the 2 doesn’t work out, what have we lost? Maybe Grant/Gallo at the 1/2 works out in a new offense. What we don’t want to do is shell out big bucks for players like DeRozan or Bazemore.

    38. Grant is the far more likely of the two to be a kefir starting nba point.

      Totally agreed…Grant is much more a “cultured, creamy product with amazing health attributes.”

    39. Wade is not a floor spreading guard by any means, its a reason why his team’s rarely had chemistry until the end of seasons.
      Anyway finishing can affect your shooting percentage, because you get fouled, but called for the attempt.

    40. If you want a 2 guard who can’t really shoot that well, just go for DeRozan.

    41. It is somewhat encouraging (at least, not discouraging) that after the All-Star break, Grant averaged around 14 points, 4 assists 4 rebounds per 36 on .548 TS. Considering a) he was a rookie b) playing for Kurt Rambis c) in an offense ill-suited to his talents… I don’t think it’s crazy to think he could emerge as a serviceable NBA lead guard this season, with the benefit of experience, a better coach and an uptempo system with more PnR opportunities.

      I just really, really, really hope the Knicks don’t make the same mistake they did with MDA, which is to hire a coach who needs a good PG and then fail to deliver one. Given how barren the FA landscape is at that position this summer I really hope Grant can become that player. His best case scenario is someone like Jeff Teague–another no. 19 overall who did not exactly set the league on fire straight out of the gate, but became a solid starter good Hawks teams.

    42. 2 guard that can shoot, but didn’t get a victory against the cavs, or go the playoffs. Kent Bazemore and Evan Fournier.

      Derozan wants the world first.

    43. So revisiting a RoLo trade, say we did a three team deal with Utah and Atlanta where RoLo goes to ATL, Korver/Teague go to Utah, and we get Gordon Hayward and Horford (in a S&T)? I think Utah does it because they were interested in Teague at the trade deadline and Hayward is likely to leave Utah in free agency next summer. It’s not like Teague and Korver are more likely to stick around, but those two upgrade their starting backcourt and give Exum/Hood a duo to learn from. Then we sign Lawson/Hernangomez, and bring back Lance Thomas and Galloway. Lawson, Hayward, Melo, Porzingis, and Horford as a starting five with LT, Grant, Galloway, O’Quinn and Hernangomez off the bench? That would be a great way to start the Hornacek era. One can dream I guess.

    44. Anyway finishing can affect your shooting percentage, because you get fouled, but called for the attempt.

      That is not true. When you are fouled, it is not counted as a shot attempt unless it goes in.

    45. 2 guard that can shoot, but didn’t get a victory against the cavs, or go the playoffs. Kent Bazemore and Evan Fournier.

      What the hell kind of logic is this? We should only get guards who went to the NBA Finals? Everybody else sucks, so might as well stick with Tony Wroten.

      GAAAAAAAHHHHH

    46. So revisiting a RoLo trade, say we did a three team deal with Utah and Atlanta where RoLo goes to ATL, Korver/Teague go to Utah, and we get Gordon Hayward and Horford (in a S&T)? I think Utah does it because they were interested in Teague at the trade deadline and Hayward is likely to leave Utah in free agency next summer. It’s not like Teague and Korver are more likely to stick around, but those two upgrade their starting backcourt and give Exum/Hood a duo to learn from. Then we sign Lawson/Hernangomez, and bring back Lance Thomas and Galloway. Lawson, Hayward, Melo, Porzingis, and Horford as a starting five with LT, Grant, Galloway, O’Quinn and Hernangomez off the bench? That would be a great way to start the Hornacek era. One can dream I guess.

      No way Utath does that trade.

    47. It’s really hard to predict any trades. While we have glaring needs, teams aren’t eager to send you great players without something great in return. RoLo is great, for his contract, at least. But I don’t think Phil has interest in moving him, not with all the cap space. So I don’t expect anything….and if something happens, I bet it will be a total surprise.

      On the other hand, it ABSOLUTELY SHOULD happen that we trade Melo to the Lakers for their #2 and D’Angelo or Jordan Clarkson, maybe. But it won’t, unless the Curse of Cronin is in full effect. Keep on preaching, Cronin! Melo will never waive his NTC! Never!

    48. So Ty Lawson and Lance Stephenson as our starting backcourt? It’s settled then!

    49. It’s nice and all that the Lakers have that #2 pick and will probably draft Brandon Ingram, but that team won 17 games last year. I don’t know why Melo would want to go from one nightmare rebuild scenario to another, especially considering the Lakers would have to send something of value back to NYK to begin with.

      Melo to LAL ain’t happening.

    50. If hornacek has any respect for himself he will not let wroten get to a usg of 28%. With real options like melo, Kp, rolo hopefully free agent X around him I think it’s logical to assume there will be better spacing/options than the sixer he played on. This will lead to an improvement on his abysmal career shooting percentages. Additionally, it’s been documented that players often improve their shooting mechanics while rehabbing an acl injury. I also believe getting cut was a humbling experience, allowing him to target and address the glaring flaws in his game (basically surmising this from reading tea leaves off his Twitter account). I’d be willing to bet his usg% and turnover% is substantially reduced and ts% increases leading him to having a better season than both grant/Galloway

    51. Yes and there are going to be guys drafted out of college this year that are older than him so there’s room for improvement.

    52. Ty Lawson and Lance Stephenson in the same back court would be too much risk, but I’d sign up for it all the same.

    53. If Lowry and DeRozan are the Trash Brothers, I don’t know what Lawson and Stephenson would be. Nuclear Waste Brothers doesn’t have that same ring to it.

    54. Re: Tony Wroten, I think everyone acknowledges he’s been a bad NBA player to date. I do think you have to take his numbers with the Sixers with a grain of salt–that team has been such a directionless dumpster fire that I think it sets young players up to fail. No responsible coach in his right mind would allow Tony Wroten to even come close to 28% usage. Sure, you can ask why he didn’t take it upon himself to shoot less, but somebody on a basketball team has to create offense. Nearly 1/3 of his FGA are ones that, on a team with more structure and more talent, he’d never be asked or expected to take.

      Bad jump shot aside, that *must* have an impact on his scoring efficiency, and I think it’s only reasonable to see if he (only 22) can get it together with a change of scenery. By all accounts he’s a hard worker and a tremendous athlete, and stranger things have happened.

    55. Yes and I don’t believe that stats are the be all and end all when it comes to very young players and especially those on horrible teams. At some point raw talent has to be looked at and Wroten has a lot of that

    56. I honestly haven’t seen Wroten play except against the Knicks. How is he defensively?

    57. I honestly haven’t seen Wroten play except against the Knicks. How is he defensively?

      Imagine Latrell Sprewell had narcolepsy.

    58. Don’t make fun of narcolepsy. Half of the people posting here seem to have it!

    59. Isn’t the thought that Wroten’s poor stats are because of the 76ers total disregard for winning the same exact excuse people had for why MCW (and Okafor) had such atrocious stats, particular his TS%, during his Philadelphia tenure? And when MCW moved to a much better team in Milwaukee, lo and behold, he was just as bad even though he wasn’t “the guy” on a team where “somebody had to create the offense.”

      We talk about how system rarely maximizes talent in such a way that player quality isn’t the main driver of team success. Well, the converse holds true, too. 95% of the time the best explanation for a player’s poor performance is the player, not the team or the system.

    60. Alecto making general comparisons is horrible. Never could stand people doing that. There’s no mysterious it will just keep happening that way going on here.

    61. If a pitcher had a lifetime ERA of 6.00, or a quarterback had a 40% completion rate, teams wouldn’t look twice at them.

      So why are we spending time discussing the consistently awful Tony Wroten?

    62. Guys there is a 5% chance Tony Wroten is ever a good basketball player. I don’t think playing in Philly is the reason he turned the ball over so often, and most players don’t improve their shooting efficiency if they’re not about to go play with Chris Paul. Wroten is still young, but my lord he has been a dumpster fire. There have to be better things to discuss. I know we won’t be playing basketball for five months, but Willy Hernangomez just posted a picture with KP. What if he’s as good as Jokic? That’s more fun to talk/think about, not?

    63. If Hernangomez is good, then the Knicks have a real log jam of bigs. I guess a trade might be a solution, but I am not sure who we would trade.

    64. @73 I don’t know, maybe because he’s actually on the roster? A bigger waste of time is pondering Melo trades, esp. to the Lakers.

      I enjoyed the Wroten discussion. At one point, he was compared to D-Wade. That was fun to read!

      BTW, note that KP was in Sevilla, recruiting Hernangomez. So, if he encourages him to sign with the Knicks, will that be one more player recruited by him for the Knicks than Melo has in his entire career?
      :-)

    65. Alecto making general comparisons is horrible. Never could stand people doing that.

      Alecto didn’t make a general comparison. MCW is a great comp for Wroten. They played in the same backcourt for the same shitty team. MCW went to a good team and didn’t get better. He just did less. It’s a great comp, and doesn’t bode well for the Tony Wroten will be better on a better team crowd.

      That said, Evan Turner also played on the Sixers team, and was also had a terrible eFG%. He went to a better team and has managed to become a serviceable distributor, making him somewhat valuable. If Wroten can manage to create value outside of his shooting, that would be great. And necessary, because if you search all the players of the modern era that played roughly 3000 minutes over their first three seasons and posted a TS% below .490, the list is long and filled almost exclusively with league footnotes. It doesn’t bode well.

    66. If Hernangomez is good then you definitely have to trade Lopez. This isn’t a situation like when the Bulls had Gibson, Noah, and Boozer/Gasol because they had a complete roster. We need guards, and Lopez could get you something substantial. What if you traded Lopez to GSW and got back Iguodala and a 1st after Bogut went down with a season ending injury or something? I think Lopez gets you the most value, and he’s the oldest so it works out for the best.

    67. Green has now kicked Adams in the junk twice in this series. It’s getting personal.

    68. Is there a stat for nut kicks? If you do it 10X in a game is it a double double?

    69. We talk about how system rarely maximizes talent in such a way that player quality isn’t the main driver of team success.

      I’ve gotten at this point many, many times, but never said it so succinctly. Exactly this.

    70. 14 more rebounds and 21 more free throws will beat a team pretty much every time. This one got ugly really fast.

    71. If a pitcher had a lifetime ERA of 6.00, or a quarterback had a 40% completion rate, teams wouldn’t look twice at them.

      So why are we spending time discussing the consistently awful Tony Wroten?

      Actually I think the jets just drafted that guy. Maybe it’s a new York thing.

    72. If a pitcher is with a lousy team and he goes 7 and 18 does that mean he can’t go 18 and 7 with a good team? Sometimes its about raw talent, situation, health and maturity.

    73. Wow, it is comical that anyone thinks that Tony Wroten is anything more than a minimum salary flyer on an athletic but horribly inefficient wing disguised as a PG. Let’s keep it real, guys. There are probably 20 guards in the D-League that have a better chance of being good than Wroten. I have no objection with giving him a look on the cheap, but to actually count on him improving? Come on.

    74. Alecto didn’t make a general comparison. MCW is a great comp for Wroten. They played in the same backcourt for the same shitty team. MCW went to a good team and didn’t get better. He just did less. It’s a great comp, and doesn’t bode well for the Tony Wroten will be better on a better team crowd.

      That said, Evan Turner also played on the Sixers team, and was also had a terrible eFG%. He went to a better team and has managed to become a serviceable distributor, making him somewhat valuable. If Wroten can manage to create value outside of his shooting, that would be great. And necessary, because if you search all the players of the modern era that played roughly 3000 minutes over their first three seasons and posted a TS% below .490, the list is long and filled almost exclusively with league footnotes. It doesn’t bode well.

      Anytime you claim something is going to happen because something else happened that’s general. Plus talking about stats alone isn’t good enough, at some point you have to examine a players actual skills in action, like what’s wrong with game or physical movements. Mcw and tony wroten are not the same.

    75. Comparing a pitcher and a point guard is a joke, but I’ll humor you. If a pitcher throws 95 mph but walks 10 batters per 9 innings and gives up 12 hits per 9 innngs on a bad team, is likely that he will suddenly become a rotation pitcher on a good team?

      The guy can’t shoot 2’s, 3’s or FTs, and turns the ball over at a high rate. He’s coming off a major knee injury. But yeah, right, he just needs a change of scenery.

    76. If a pitcher had a lifetime ERA of 6.00, or a quarterback had a 40% completion rate, teams wouldn’t look twice at them.

      HOF Greg Maddux First 2 seasons in MLB:

      186 innings…. ERA = 5.58 in the NL with no DH…. W-L = 8-18…. WHIP = 1.700 Maddox was a turrible pitcher his first 2 seasons with the Cubs

      And he didn’t tear an ACL !!!!

    77. Clever, bob, but I’m sure you know that it’s really a ridiculous comparison. For every Greg Maddux there are 100s of pitchers who never develop beyond cup of coffee status.

    78. You know, if we don’t upgrade the PG spot this summer I can see Wroten beating out Jose and Grant just because he’s more athletic than either guy. He’s easily the worst shooter, but I’d bet he gets more minutes than Grant if we stand pat at PG.

    79. The good news is, we’re not risking anything for Wroten beyond a temporary roster spot. I have no problem with that, and maybe he shocks the world. That’s different than actually expecting that he fills anything but a minuscule (and/or net negative) role for this team, or any team going forward.

    80. Comparing a pitcher and a point guard is a joke, but I’ll humor you. If a pitcher throws 95 mph but walks 10 batters per 9 innings and gives up 12 hits per 9 innngs on a bad team, is likely that he will suddenly become a rotation pitcher on a good team?

      The guy can’t shoot 2’s, 3’s or FTs, and turns the ball over at a high rate. He’s coming off a major knee injury. But yeah, right, he just needs a change of scenery.

      Your one of those people that didn’t believe in Porzingis, I said examine his game more deeply.

    81. I disagree, massive, Grant is already as good or better than Wroten in nearly every facet of the game, and he is hardly good. At least Grant played pretty well in college and got better as last season went on. But neither guy will play much without improvement, especially now that Hornacek is coaching.

      I agree, though, that both guys will get every opportunity to win a job. I just doubt that either of them will, and if one does, it will more likely be Grant.

    82. @98 ha, that could be the least informed comment ever made on KB! But then again, you’ve been around this site for what, all of 5 minutes?

    83. Just because sugarslim is a relative rookie and has made some mistakes so far in his young posting career doesn’t mean that he can’t become an all star poster down the road.

    84. @98 ha, that could be the least informed comment ever made on KB! But then again, you’ve been around this site for what, all of 5 minutes?

      You respond to my least informed comment with an equally least informed comment.

      First I don’t perceive Wroten as a pg. I don’t think he was acquired to play that position. Only the pure triangle could thrust him into a wing/lead floor runner, so it’s a moot point to talk about his turnovers since Hornacek is the coach. Second his shot is raw, because he’s throws it up each time a different way. There’s actually no refined form to it. Until we see him use form, claiming it won’t improve would be incorrect.

      But even without the shot, he’d be just as good, if not better than many of the affalo’s that people want this team to get. Provided that we’d need a shooting pg if he can’t shoot, but he’s got skills and potential to improve as 2guard.

    85. I would bet against Wroten becoming even a good rotation player if given the chance, but I don’t see why it’s wrong to discuss what he would have to do to become better and under what circumstances they could occur.

      Reduce his usage from 28+ to 18-20, play as 3rd option and secondary ball handler, improve his finishing at the rim from 55-56% to 58-59% and up his free throw shooting from career 64.7% to roughly 70%.

      The odds of all that happening are quite shitty, but he is very athletic, he’s only ever played with awful NBA teammates and he’s had to shoulder way too much of the shot creation and scoring burdens on his team. I’m not banking on it, but he seems like a hard worker and an enthusiastic guy so I have no problem rooting and hoping for that long shot to pay off. If not, it’s not a big deal.

      Oh, and he’s only 22 so there’s still some growth you could reasonably bet on at that age.

    86. I would bet against Wroten becoming even a good rotation player if given the chance, but I don’t see why it’s wrong to discuss what he would have to do to become better and under what circumstances they could occur.

      I’m fine with this. Let’s just assign a confidence value to his improvement to a serviceable rotation player: 10%? 5%? 3%?

    87. 3-5% sounds like the right range. It’s just found money if he hits. If not, waive him and move on to the next one.

    88. Ah yes, the exception that proves likelihood…

      Nonsense.

      The man said it never happens and I rightly pointed out while it doesn’t happen often, players certainly sometimes improve a lot. Also WOW heros like Landry Fields regress to the mean a lot.

      Wroten is a guy whose age is analogous to a guy who blows out his ACL his senior year in college. Clearly Jackson, et al see something in him and it is a practically zero risk play for very short money. Bully for him.

      You want to give big cap clogging contracts to Curry, Asik and Lin. Your idol Morey made the same mistake twice signing asik after playing short minutes as a mostly back up and Lin after 3 weeks of good play. Not optimal game theory strategy.

      Not very smart…..

    89. I would pay Seth Curry $4M a year for three years. Last year, I would have offered him a minimum salary for the longest contract I could have offered. I don’t see how you could have read my posts and thought that I believed a $30M contract for a guy who’s barely played would be a smart move. How many times have I trash-talked the Jerome James contract?

      Asik played very, very well in 2012-13 and in 2013-14, he was benched by Kevin McHale for no reason whatsoever, having posted career highs in points/min, rebounds/min, and shooting efficiency, while lowering his turnovers/min. He then got injured and was shipped off to the Pelicans, where he played 2,000 minutes and had virtually identical numbers, well worth his salary.

      http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/30-omer-asik

      You can look at Asik’s numbers yourself because frankly, you have no idea what you’re talking about. At all. If you can look at those numbers and see a player who wasn’t worth $8.3M a year, you and I are watching different sports.

    90. Wroten’s TS% for his age 20 and 21 seasons — .493 and .494. Russell Westbrook’s age 20 and 21 seasons — .489 and .491. I’m not saying that Wroten is going to become Westbrook, or even that there is a decent chance that he becomes pretty good, but I also don’t think that it is a near certainty that he is going to be awful. By the way, the guy you are looking for who threw 95 but walked 12 guys per 9 innings was Nolan Ryan, not Greg Maddox.

    91. As a thought experiment, if you took grant from 2-3 years ago and put him on one of the worst team’s in NBA history and asked him to carry a heavy scoring load and run the offense what would his numbers look like? What do grants numbers look like now? He was one of the worst 3 pt shooters in the league and had a fair amount of turnovers himself last year. I’m not nearly ready to write him off but the bar for wroten to earn the starting job and improve his career numbers isn’t very high.

      Also a comparison is literally that. It’s a similar situation but you would be ludicrous to use comps as the rule. Mcw is not wroten, etc.

    92. @110

      He led the Pac-12 in turnovers and was 8th in the entire NCAA . He’s always been a turnover machine. Also, he was a horrible shooting in college, too, so, I mean, whatever.

    93. I’d go as high as a 10% chance Wroten becomes serviceable. 1 in 10? Why not. It would take 2 years, though, and we’re talking about serviceable, not actually good.

      Again, still happy about the signing. Only upside.

    94. The only way I think Wroten can become an useful player is if he becomes a good defender. Relieve him of any offensive duties and let him concentrate in the defensive end. Then we can know if he is gonna be any good or not

    95. Nobody here said that Wroten was a bad signing. The argument is about his chances of being a positive contributing rotation player on the Knicks, or even a starter. Some folks are already projecting that he will be a starter.

      There is no disputing that advanced statistical analysis strongly suggests that the probability of Wroten developing into a net-plus player is extremely low, say, less than 5%. There really isn’t any arguing otherwise.

      There is no risk here, since he is on a minimum contract that can be waived with no opportunity cost. No arguing that either.

      But actually projecting that Wroten will be a starter on anything but a tanking team flies in the face of statistical analysis…if you feel otherwise, please revisit the masthead of this website.

    96. I do not believe Wroten will ever become a good NBA player. I can say the same about Jerian Grant. I do think that a healthy Tony Wroten would beat out Grant in a competition because more athletic and has started more games in his career. Objectively speaking Grant has been better, but he and Wroten are eerily similar as NBA players. Tall and athletic guards who cannot shoot but can get to the basket and make a play if they’re not too busy turning it over. Calderon would probably be the preference of any coach worth his salt, though.

    97. I’m getting on reub-wagon and am going to call all you naysayers out.

      Yes – Tony Wroten probably won’t be great. Yes, his statistical analysis looks bad. No, you are not smart for thinking this. It’s like going into the season predicting the Knicks won’t win the championship. Or that the Raptors or Clippers won’t win the championship. Even for good-great teams, winning a chip is only a very small possibility. Even for GREAT teams, it’s only a small possibility. So saying an unlikely thing is unlikely to happen does not make you smart.

      But what is the point of being a fan if you can’t dream a little? Yes – Tony Wroten has all the athleticism you could ever want from a combo guard. Yes- his numbers suck.

      That said – he is younger than Jerian Grant. He’s younger now entering his 5th season than Seth Curry was entering the NBA. He’s played very few minutes — to put it into perspective, Blake Griffin played more minutes his rookie year than Wroten has played in his entire career. Yes, I know Blake Griffin is a lot better than Wroten. But I also know that Blake Griffin shot 61% from the FT line over his first 1600 free throws, which encompassed 8100 minutes played. I also know that Blake Griffin is/was a terrible 3 point shooter for his first 3-4 seasons — but also that he didn’t take those shots because he was on a normal team that was concerned with actually winning.

      For better or for worse (depending on whether you want to win or tank), Wroten was forced to create something every time up the floor, except that he wasn’t allowed to take midrange or long 2’s. At all. he also wasn’t allowed to play with any players who could actually, you know, shoot a basketball. The players with the most minutes with him in 2014-15? Nerlens Noel (can’t shoot). Mbah a Moute (comically can’t shoot). KJ McDaniels (can’t shoot). Henry Sims (sucks). I mean, he had no chance of succeeding.

      But now on the NYK – let us dream a little.

    98. It’s a good theoretical question. If you put a team on the floor that absolutely cannot shoot at all, who is most likely to suffer the most statistically? My guess is that it’s the guy with the ball. He has to make something happen. Wroten having a TS of 49.5 everything taken into account is probably a better play than kicking it out to Mbah a Moute for the uncontested jumper.

      By the way, this is true – here are the eFG% on jumpers for the players that Wroten got to play with in 2014-15:

      Mbah a Moute -38%
      KJ McDaniels – 35.7
      Nerlens Noel – 28.2
      Henry Sims – 40

      So what should Wroten do? Choices are drive the ball all the way to the hoop into 4 defenders and try to make a play at the hoop. Drive the ball and kick out to awful shooters who will likely miss. He decided to drive the ball to the hoop. What happens when you drive into 4 players at once? You turn the ball over.

      I’d say there is a glimmer of a reasonable case to be made that he can cut down his turnovers significantly with better talent around him (and with less ball handling responsibility). Is it likely? No. But is it enough to have some hope? Yes.

    99. Bad news is that the Knicks sucks in eFG% (28th)

      They are not good at offensive rating either (25th)

      So expecting Wroten to improve because he will not need to “carry the load” seems like wishfull thinking.

      But as said before, it’s a minimum contract and we have a pick next season.

      If we are good and he’s playing poorly, cut him. Otherwise, lottery pick here we go!

    100. How is anyone coming up with 5% or 10% probability that he becomes a rotation player? What are you calculating to determine that or are you just arbitrarily choosing a really low percent chance to describe how you feel?

      FWIW which is pretty much nothing, here is what Wroten himself is thinking: he stated that he expects to be the starter and that he chose number 5 because 5-6-7.

    101. I don’t really see what the point of this Wroten debate is. As fans we should all hope he bucks the statistics that his young career has put up so far and at his age its not unreasonable to think he’ll do so. But its also far from a guarantee that he will. But he’s young and costing us next to nothing so lets just root for the guy. Maybe he was in a bad situation and is a hard worker and will do better with a better group of guys around him. Heck if he turns into another Jeremy Lin we’ve gotten way more back for our investment that we put in. This is the exact type of move Phil and the Knicks should be making all the time regardless of how many picks we have or not.

    102. So saying an unlikely thing is unlikely to happen does not make you smart.

      But what is the point of being a fan if you can’t dream a little?

      I am dreaming that KP takes a big step forward (literally and figuratively) next season.
      I am dreaming that Melo’s legs hold up and that he continues to show a commitment to all-around excellence.
      I am dreaming that Lance T comes back and is as solid for us next year as he was last year until he got hurt.
      I am dreaming that RoLo keeps doing all his RoLo things, maybe a bit more consistently on a night-to-night basis.
      I am even dreaming that Jerian Grant turns into at least a serviceable back-up point.
      And I am dreaming that Horny figures out who our best players are and puts them in a position to succeed.

      I am not dreaming that Tony Wroten contributes, because projecting him to play meaningful minutes means not being realistic about our serious issues at the guard spots. Even as fans, it seems fair to think about what the team needs, not rest of hope of what could be and project someone to start when all they’ve shown to date is that they are terrible. I concede the point about how awful his Sixers team was, but that’s why I think there’s a 10% as opposed to a 1% chance.

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