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Knicks Morning News (2025.06.22)
06/22/2025 11:00:01
06/22/2025 10:30:00
06/22/2025 08:12:12
06/22/2025 03:59:00
06/22/2025 04:08:05
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06/22/2025 01:40:00
06/22/2025 00:04:07
06/22/2025 00:09:00
06/21/2025 23:50:55
77 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2025.06.22)”
This reminded me of Shawne “Extra E” Williams! š
Can they take it to 10 of 20 tonight? What do you say, Donnie?
“Julius Randle is a very similar player, and possibly better ā and he rarely missed time, whereas Siakam was injured a bit during the the preceding years. It would have made no sense whatsoever.”
They are actually not all that similar, and the degree to which they are redundant is actually a good thing, in part because it would have made Randle even more expendable given his contract situation. Moreover, they are both all-NBA level players and you can’t have too many of them. The only knock on him is that he’s not a particularly good 3pt shooter, which he has in common with Randle.
As to injury concerns, in his last two full seasons in Toronto, Siakam led the league in minutes. He played 68 of 72 games (all-NBA), and then 71 of 82 (all-star.) Dollar for dollar, he’s a waaaay better player than OG.
Sorry Donnie, your boys are going down tonight.
OG’s CAA, Siakam isn’t. Both were pending UFA’s, both on the block as a consequence, both traded within weeks of each other, both from an Eastern Conference team to an Eastern Conference team.
The difference between the Knicks and Pacers as we sit here today is essentially the difference in the relative costs and relative impacts of OG and Siakam.
When one team has an owner who for whatever reason — probably his band — makes common cause with one single talent agency, which in turn leads to worse relationships with other talent agencies, and then hires as his senior personnel guy an alum of said talent agency with close family members still working there … and the other teams don’t do these things, it creates an inherent disadvantage that is going to be very difficult to overcome.
The OG/Knicks, Pacers/Siakam transactions and results are a sublimely distilled, chef’s kiss example of the principle. That it’s now clear to all that OG, advertised as “a guy who can guard 1 through 5,” really can’t guard Siakam is just an extra half chef’s kiss — a chef’s peck — on the whole episode.
Today is a great day to be a fan of NBA basketball.
Finals Game 7.
One game to decide the 2024-25 Championship.
I wish that the Knicks were playing.
Iām going to tune in.
I’ll tune in, but then TJ will make his requisite three-straight dribble-drive jump shots and I’ll go do something else for a while…
(it’s not even that I hate TJ or the Pacers anymore, it’s just annoying!)
Pascal Siakam shot .544 from 3-10 feet this year, and .441 from 10-16 feet.
He can shoot the basketball.
And it’s not just that he can shoot the basketball. The ability to do that is the direct result of and proxies other athletic and basketball skills that reveal themselves to a greater or lesser degree in other areas of his BB-ref page. Those athletic and basketball skills without question lead to helping win basketball games. (As it does with guys like Shai Gilgeous Alexander and Jalen Williams.)
We were there in 1994, and i hope we’ll be there again soon. š§”š
Who isn’t? Even i, that almost never watch games of other teams, am going to tune in.
And may the best team win.
TJ is one of those miracle players, like Brunson is. You have to love him. These a**holes have two exciting point guards, damnit.
Well, weāre waking up nightly to missile alerts here, hopefully the Iranians time it to align with the game this time, otherwise Iām taking the opportunity to sleep.
Nice piece on my hero Breen in the Athletic. Worth a read.
My prediction for tonight is that Hali puts up his usual every other game stinker, and walks off the court dramatically wincing in pain as the Pacers lose game 7.
Nothing left to extend, but nonetheless, The Extender deemed surplus to requirements for Game 7.
You are from Israel? Stay safe, man. š
Thanks, yes. It’s insane all around here. But I won’t get into politics.
Nice piece on Breen. Like this quote from Stockton
āWhenever I hear someone in the role I had for over half a century, I can tell in seconds if the announcer is humble and not looking to prove something to the audience. Mike is one of those.ā
I would take Siakam over Randolph because of defense. I also think the transition ability puts a lot of pressure on other teams.
Will of course watch. Still rooting for OKC but have been disappointed in them. They have gone away from what worked for them all season too much.
I have become a TJ admirer and think it would be great if he wins the MVP of the series. He would have to be the most unlikely MVP in memory, even more so than Iggy.
Come on, Z-man. I did a deep dive at the time of the trade on this very subject. If I had THCJ’s search chops I’d be able to find it, but in short:
He averaged 64 games played over the previous 4 seasons. Julius averaged 72. Advantage Julius.
He shot 33% from 3 with a 3PAr of only .247, below average even for a power forward. Julius shot 34%, at higher .301 3PAr. Not a huge difference, but advantage Julius.
Overall he had a .574% TS, again below league average for a power forward. Julius had a .561%. Advantage Siakam.
He averaged 7.7 rpg, pretty average. Julius averaged 9.7, which is good even for a power forward. Advantage Julius.
A very good 4.8 apg for power forward, offset by 2.5 TOs per game. 4.4 for Julius, with 3 TOs. Advantage Siakam.
AIO:
Siakam 2.6 VORP, 3.1 Julius
2.1 BPM , Julius 2
WS (4 years) 25.5, Julius 27.8
Beyond that, he was due for a contact extension; Julius was in the middle of a team-friendly deal.
The idea of trading for that player – deniably similar to Julius, and less available, in an era of limited resources is risible. Had you advocated for it, you would have deserved the opprobrium that would have come your way.
Or maybe you could have joined the prior front office, when they signed Portis, Randle, Morris, and Gibson in what was universally hailed as great management.
TL;dr — E agrees with you
OG Anunoby and Julius Randle played like 10 games together.
OG Anunoby played Julius Randle’s position the entire 2024-25 season.
Stay safe, darules!
Thibs getting cashiered has freed up Z-Man to say what he really thinks about Leon and his moves, and the roster generally. It’s been quite the sight to witness and he’s been doing excellent work. Like Hubert, he’ll now try to find some way to “create distance” from my posts so as to maintain perceived bona fides — but that won’t change the underlying core truths and overlaps.
Julius is better than OG. Not really seeing the need for comparisons with Pascal.
Sorry Donnie, your boys are going down tonight.
you obviously don’t know the first thing about donnie mechanics since this would violate the principle of superdispositon, where all possible loyalties immediately collapse to the winner when observed.
“He averaged 64 games played over the previous 4 seasons. Julius averaged 72. Advantage Julius.”
This is a disingenuous use of averaging, and I’m surprised you would even go there. Neither player had serious injury concerns during the preceding 3.5 years, and any advantage was random. If anything, OG was the guy with the checkered injury history, so if you want to go there, you are actually strengthening the case for picking Siakam over OG.
“He shot 33% from 3 with a 3PAr of only .247, below average even for a power forward. Julius shot 34%, at higher .301 3PAr. Not a huge difference, but advantage Julius.”
lol, this is actually a disadvantage for Julius, as he chose to shoot more from 3 in spite of being just as bad. And again, your averaging is bad practice, as during the two full seasons prior to the trade, Siakam shot .344 and .324 while Randle shot .308 and .343.
Randle is the better rebounder, but far worse as a passer and a lower IQ player, as we are seeing now with Siakam and saw point blank with Siakam.
I have no doubt that Siakam could have moved to the 3 next to Randle and made the team better than we were with OG at the 3, or even played the 4 next to Julius at the 5 in a small-ball lineup. He’s a far more skilled and versatile player (you know, one that can actually take 3 dribbles towards the rim in traffic without falling down, or getting stripped or blocked, or make a smart pass) than both Randle and OG, and he’s an excellent defender, not Julius’ strong suit.
PS Siakam is shooting 38+% from 3 at higher volume since joining the Pacers…who knew?
the thing that really jumps off the page about siakam is how much better his defense has looked in than it used to, including lots of playoff games with toronto and even his early days in indy. caitlin cooper has done a great job documenting this evolution during his pacer tenure.
It is not disingenuous to use a larger sample size. And your main point was
when in fact they are remarkably similar. Whether Julius is better is certainly disputable; whether it would have been a good idea to trade for a player who plays the same position and does similar things is not. Could Siakam play the 3? Maybe, but then we’d have had two players who aren’t great from distance, which clearly would not have complemented the game of Brunson, the player we chose to build around.
I can agree with this. But again, at the time we made the trade, what we knew was that he was not at that time a good defender. Kudos to him for his improvement! But to make any claims now about how he would have been a better trade target is pure hindsight.
Having little ability to dribble or navigate traffic inside the trifecta line doesn’t really “complement” anyone’s game, be it Jalen Brunson’s or anyone else’s.
“But to make any claims now about how he would have been a better trade target is pure hindsight.”
People said these things about OG at the time — a bunch of people just didn’t want to listen and plugged their ears.
All the stuff about how everyone wanted him was just echo chamber material from a few self-referential internet posts bounced around between people who really wanted to believe.
And he’s not RJ Barrett, so there was that ….
“Thibs getting cashiered has freed up Z-Man to say what he really thinks about Leon and his moves, and the roster generally. Itās been quite the sight to witness and heās been doing excellent work. Like Hubert, heāll now try to find some way to ācreate distanceā from my posts so as to maintain perceived bona fides ā but that wonāt change the underlying core truths and overlaps.”
Before you break your arm patting yourself on the back, my posts about the Knicks players, coaches, and executives are the same as they always were. You and others have had the annoying and deeply offensive habit of dismissing anyone who had anything positive to say about Thibs, or Julius, or Leon as an unbridled apologist.
You are to shallow of an individual with whom to have an honest conversation. Your opinions on Leon, Julius, and Thibs are uniquely lacking in substance and nuance, they are just bluster with a veneer of schlocky lawyerese. Pretty much everyone here sees right through you, and probably elsewhere as well.
Keep telling it like it is, Z-Man. It’s good stuff.
“I can agree with this. But again, at the time we made the trade, what we knew was that he was not at that time a good defender. Kudos to him for his improvement! But to make any claims now about how he would have been a better trade target is pure hindsight.”
Siakam has always been a capable and versatile defender. Nothing he is doing with the Pacers is new or improved. He was a 2X all-star and 2X all-NBA player who was in his 3rd straight big minutes season playing most games. No hindsight is necessary to have known at the time that he was a steal at the price Indy paid for him.
IMO Siakam is lot better than Randle (at least the Pacer version). He’s not a ball stopper, he’s more consistent on defense and he’s less prone to brain farts under pressure. I’d way rather have Siakam.
One area where E and I have been in closer alignment than E and most other posters is I think RJ is generally underrated here. However, I think OG is a much better all-around player and contributor to winning basketball than RJ. That trade was well worth the price for many reasons, but hardly a steal. However, if it were straight up for RJ, it would definitely have been a massive heist.
But neither guy is close to as good Siakam. Pritchard saw an opportunity and jumped on it.
This is where we get into team building.
Julius has a wider range of skills than OG, but imo he’s not a more valuable player to a top team.
Being elite at a couple of things is what adds a lot of value. The goal is to build a team where your starting 5 covers all the essential skills at an elite overall level (2-3 elite scorers, spacers, rebounders, playmakers, defenders etc…). The more of it you have the better, but “jacks of all trades, masters of none” don’t add a lot of value to very good teams. They add more value to bad teams.
OG is an elite switchable defender, an excellent 3 point shooter when open, and excellent finisher on cuts. You can plug him into any very good team and he’s going to add more value than Julius and massively more than a guy like RJ who can also do things OG can’t do.
so now the rockets have traded for harden westbrook and kd
Foster, who has worked more Finals series (18) and games (26) than any of the 12 referees selected to officiate the series by the NBA, had been expected to be chosen to not only officiate this game but also likely to serve as its crew chief — the role he held for his lone appearance during these Finals in Game 4 in Indiana on June 13.
After a lot of online discussion — particularly among Pacers fans — about the officiating in that Thunder win and about Foster specifically, Indiana coach Rick Carlisle went out of his way to defend Foster prior to Game 5.
hmmm
If you want to defend RJ and Quickley the best way to do it is to acknowledge that both were young enough to continue improving when they were traded, both had a lot of injuries last year and Toronto was in all out tank mode last year. I would draw a line through the year. I think we’ll learn a lot more about both players this year (assuming better health) wherever they wind up.
durant to rockets for jalen green dillon brooks #10 pick in this years draft and five second rounders
There’s an “X” efficiency point gain that makes RJ clearly better than OG, and I’m fine saying he needs that. I’m also of the mind and always have been that RJ’s shooting mechanics — a skill!” — make it less likely, all else equal that he’ll gain those X number of points, whatever they are.
But Immanuel Quickley was a 3.2 OBPM player last year and makes the overall cost a complete overpay, particularly in light of what Indy paid for Siakim a couple weeks later.(*)
We’re also left in the uncomfortable position of wondering, given that the player is out-of-network, whether Leon even bothered inquiring about Siakim, if for no other reason than to try to tease out the real market for OG.
(*) Even one of the three ones they paid was the lesser of a bunch of teams’ ones, including OKC. It projected to convey in the very high 20s, and did convey at 29.
seems like a pretty fair trade…
until durant misses 50 games
I don’t want to knock Jalen Green’s long term potential, but based on his current contributions getting rid of him made the Rockets better even without getting Durant. lmao
The Suns are the new dumping ground for overrated players.
TO’s package was better (so was Minny’s) but once KD reiterated that he didn’t want to go to TO, Phoenix’s bluff about Minny and TO couldn’t and didn’t hold. Kind of a weak sauce bluff in the first instance, and I’m sure Rich Kleiman laughed it off, particularly since he’s been through this like four times now with KD.
If you’re of the mind, as I am, that some risk is going to have to be taken to get this team to the next level, Jalen Green is worth at least a very serious kick of the tires.
There are better options in his bucket, but all indications are that PHO wants to re-route him. That could have been part of the bluff and pre-trade machinations, though.
Nothing to apologize for, itās been an amazing run and the Thunder are a great team. Iām hoping for a fun and entertaining game and maybe even a little more magic.
Really glad we stayed out of the Durant sweepstakes, trading KAT for him would have been as dumb as starting a war in the Middle East.
Wait, someone else thinks he’s a very good player at this stage? š
Stop trying to make RJ Barrett a thing
I think Phoenix made a terrible trade. Any other franchise and I’d have faith they can make another move to balance the roster. But now they have backed themselves into a corner and pretty much have to move Booker. LOL SUNS. I can’t imagine being a fan of a team that has to move forward with Beal at this stage of his career, Jalen Green, and Dillon Brooks as the best players. That’s awful. On the surface, it’s a good haul for a 36 year old Durant. But the implications of that trade spells even more doom for Phoenix- even if Beal retires. They can’t trade Beal without attaching a 1st, and they are a team of wings.
On the flipside of it, how can the Knicks take advantage of Phoenix’ tomfoolery? Who would we want to steal from them? Can we throw Bridges, KAT, and Dadiet their way for Book, Richards, Martin and cap filler. Someone like Micic if that would get the numbers close enough?
for the record we did not start the war in the middle east we just maybe stupidly got ourselves involved in it
Great get by Houston. They needed some better scorers and they got one.
durant scored almost 7 points per game more than jalen green
3.2 more per 36. The point?
because ebw specifically said that they need better scorers and they actually got worse in that department if scoring is going to be the measuring stick which i personally do not think it is
“You can plug him into any very good team and heās going to add more value than Julius”
I think this is an absurd statement, especially after the season and playoffs Randle just had with Minny.
The only way OG adds more value is if you already have a Julius Randle on your team in the Julius Randle role. In other words, Randle + OG > Randle1 + Randle 2.
At least it makes sense for them to roll the dice on younger players.
as if the find your team on a million different streaming services wasn’t wild enough – the yanks are playing on “Roku” streaming channel…
which just happens to be one of the “free” TV channels that come with the tv…
go yanks on a Sunday morning…
thoughts and prayers are with yourself and your family darules š
good move by houston…
what a dumpster fire in the valley of the sun…
devin booker would be a really valuable player to get a hold of if at all possible…
Booker’s in network and his salary matches with KAT’s.
“Thereās an āXā efficiency point gain that makes RJ clearly better than OG, and Iām fine saying he needs that. Iām also of the mind and always have been that RJās shooting mechanics ā a skill!ā ā make it less likely, all else equal that heāll gain those X number of points, whatever they are.”
There’s an “X” efficiency point that makes Cam Reddish clearly better than SGA.
There’s an “X” efficiency point that makes DeJounte Murray better than Steph Curry.
“But Immanuel Quickley was a 3.2 OBPM player last year and makes the overall cost a complete overpay, particularly in light of what Indy paid for Siakim a couple weeks later.”
I agree that IQ is the player that will determine in hindsight whether OG was an overpay. But IQ at $32M doesn’t seem like a bargain, and he has kinda sucked since signing that deal. Still think we needed OG more than we needed either IQ or RJ, and that given the salaries involved it was at worst a wash.
Jalen Green is also in-network. Unlike RJ, he doesn’t have the shooting mechanics issue; he just takes a lot of stupid shots. He’s at 27.3 USG, so he has significant slack in which to clean that up and still be a very, very good player. He’s uber-athletic and very skilled, creative and on-balance and agile with and without the ball in traffic (among other skills).
He also upped his trifecta percentage to an acceptable .354 last year, and the OBPM trended up from 0.4 to 1.1. His needle is on an upward trajectory, but obviously needs to uptrend more.
Devin Booker is the KAT of the shooting guard position. Hard no for me.
Jalen Green’s $33M extension kicks in this year. I could see him in sort of the Ben Mathurin role on our team, but not at that price. Maybe he improves, maybe he doesn’t, but let some other team find out.
I’d love to get Matheson on this team, but Indy would likely never trade him to such a close competitor.
The Knicks have a skill and creativity deficit. It’s probably their biggest problem. They should try to fill it with risky, younger guys in a trade that could turn out down the road to look like a steal. It’ll probably never happen with Leon/Dolan, but they need to get out of the “pay retail-plus for already-established guys” business. The “trade the entire asset chest for the OG Anunobys, Josh Harts, and Mikal Bridgeses of the world” is well past its sell-by date.
KAT is a very unique player/piece in the nba, you don’t get a KAT just to flip it a season later…
paul goldschmidt, age 57 goes in the the game late as a PINCH RUNNER…
jazz does some jazzy stuff and sends a ball to the wall in the gap and paul scores all the way from first in a close play at the plate…way to get a sunday going…
Jazz Rizzholm.
Jalen Greenās efficiency doesnāt look all that impressive at first glance, but he is creating his own shot a very high percentage of the time: only 26% of his 2pt makes and a very low 53% of his 3pt makes were assisted. Mathurinās assisted basket percentage on 2pt shots is double what Greenās is.
Heās only 22, so if he had an efficiency bump then youāre looking at a guy with league average efficiency who creates his own shot 75% of the time, and that has value.
Jalen Green is fun and has some plausible upside, it’s not a bad return for KD, who pretty clearly doesn’t have much value at this point. Phoenix is in better than nothing mode
Never been a Jalen Green guy. Maybe he figures it out.
PHX has $140M locked up in the SG position. Assuming it’s 100% that Beal picks up his option, they’re stuck with him, waiving and stretching him would be suicide unless they are totally going into tank mode for the next 5 years. That is one fugly cap sheet!
“Heās only 22…”
Actually 23, will turn 24 in February. He’s young enough to get it together, and it seems like Houston should have kept him around.
Houston may have improved on paper, but they seem like a clunky, wing-PF-heavy team.
The point is where they were two years ago, which was not the same place as today. Their numbers were, as demonstrated, very close. The “ball stopper” and “brain fart” issues show up in the very minor difference in assists and TOs. Very minor. And Julius rated better on D, though obviously those metrics suck so who knows. But 2 rebounds better per game is statistically significant.
The thing that’s laughable about this is that I was the only one here posting about Siakam at the time. I decided (for myself) that the delta between him and Julius was small and Julius had (at that time) been healthier, so Siakam did not make as much sense as OG. But at least I was talking about it – all the people on the bandwagon now are purely hindsight champions.
If I’m Phoenix, I move Booker for picks and eat the Beal contract unless someone is dumb enough to take him off my hands. Maybe he has a bounce back season and you get some for him later.
It sucks seeing a situation where I team should trade it’s franchise star, but they’re shooting themselves in the foot if they don’t cash in.
No idea why we’re arguing about Siakam vs Randle. Siakam is clearly better on defense and a better shooter today. On Toronto he wasn’t nearly as good on defense or as a shooter, though I’m sure he was still better than Randle.
Either way, paying multiple 1sts to add Siakam to Randle would be really dumb. Upgrading from RJ, worst high-volume 10-16ft shooter in the association, was a good idea.
RJ shot .542 from 10-16 this season, less than half his twos assisted, but in any event upgrading him into Siakam would have been a better idea than upgrading (*) him into OG.
(*) Or, depending on one’s preference, “upgrading.”
He would have had more value if he hadn’t made clear that he only wanted to go to one of three teams (Houston, San Antonio, Miami). Toronto and Minnesota both would have given up more for him. How much more? I don’t know.
re: OG vs Siakam:
Two things:
1) That January team was unbelivable (parts greater than whole same as Indiana) and would have been in the finals this year. Injuries + i-Hart leaving ruined everything.
2) If Siakam was soo good and had so much value at the time, how come Ujiri didn’t get more for him?
Both life and markets are all about timing. After we got our guy, no one had any interest in paying market price for Siakam. Timing is everything. Its not a rational or a lienar type thing. People who haven’t made a ton of trade deals don’t undestand this. I used to buy and sell cars, – only reason why I get it. Leon did well and if game one broke diferently, this would not be a conversation topic.
Ps. There was only one team possible and credible threats to OG and iHart (OKC and Philly). We lost one and had to overpay for the other. If there was another more established center available in free agency, Presti doesn’t overpay i-Hart. Both players are making ~ $10m each year extra due to perfect timing.
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