Knicks Morning News (2024.07.03)

Rokas Update:

1st Game of the Qualifying Tournament

Lithuania beat Mexico 96-84

Rokas numbers:
22 minutes, 8 points (1-2 2FG, 2-4 3FG), 3 rebounds, 6 assists, +24.

He was in the starting lineup.

Here are some highlights from the game (Rokas is #13 in green):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXKEme9BVzE

Haven’t finished the Macri/Katz KFS podcast ep yet, but some notable things, re: the center situation:

* The Knicks weren’t surprised at all about iHart taking the OKC deal
* They didn’t take a center earlier than 58 because they don’t want to be relying on a rookie center taken in the 20s in a weak draft to be a part of a healthy rotation
* Though Drummond is by all accounts a good and well-liked guy, Fred thinks he would have been a bad chemistry fit because, if you read between the lines of what Fred said, Drummond isn’t the kind of maniac gym rat that the rotation is otherwise filled with
* Fred thinks Precious is the best FA center left (and said that before Tillman went off the board), and while he’s not perfect, he knows the Knicks like him and wouldn’t be surprised by a reunion.
* Any kind of trade — whether for Kessler, for Nick Richards, maybe for a Detroit center (which is something that apparently came up on Fred’s own podcast, with us sending back the protected Pistons pick as part of a deal for Duren or Beef Stew) — becomes suuuper complicated due to the new CBA, our desire to avoid being hard capped at the first apron, etc.

They were in the middle of discussing the FO’s stomach for dealing Deuce in any of these scenarios when I wrapped up my morning walk and came inside to type these words to you. Will relay more later in the day.

To the extent the Knicks go looking at the Heat’s Thomas Bryant as a potential option, I’d rather they skip down Miami’s depth chart and take a flyer on Orlando Robinson. He’s 3 years younger and has some scoring, rebounding and passing skills. I believe he becomes an UFA if the Heat do no re-up him by 7/15.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgkRZ7QBXm8

So basically then every time the Knicks don’t make a trade or signing that makes sense, someone in the Knicks FO tells Fred the player was a bad “chemistry fit” and Fred repeats it out loud.

Certainly not going to begrudge a working basketball reporter maintaining good relations with the people he depends on for his beat, but we don’t have that limitation and can therefore call it like it is.

In terms of the other thing, I’m old enough to remember when the Sixers were “moving on from Paul George.”

Good chance that one came from OG’s team as well. In terms of the objective reality, there was never the remotest chance a team in Philly’s position was going to turn down PG for only money, and instead sign OG for only money. They’re on materially different levels as players.

Is OG’s team in the room with us right now?

Reading the tea leaves, you get the impression the Knicks aren’t panicking and think they have something, or some possibilities, lined up at center.

They could’ve given Tillman the TMLE and there’s no way he would’ve passed on it for a two-year minimum, announced the return of Precious already, or made any number of other fine-but-underwhelming moves.

I will reiterate that I think center will be addressed in a manner those of us not doing bits find at least satisfactory.

I like Precious more than Tillman, as well.

My understanding of our maneuver with Precious is that we didn’t extend the QO bc we thought he might take it. This means we expect to be able to sign him for less than $6MM but also takes away his bird rights, meaning we have to use the TPMLE on him. As always, please don’t hesitate to correct me if I have it wrong.

If we manage to sign Precious to a deal around $4MM, that leaves us with a choice: we could stay under the first apron or we can offer Alec Burks a one year deal at around $14MM and essentially make him the Honorary Fournier, i.e. a vet on a deal to be traded later.

The benefits of the Burks move seem to outweigh staying under the apron. With Deuce and Dadiet, I think we have the equivalent of two firsts. And we got a premium Nets 2nd rounder back in the Bridges trade. So with Burks’ salary, Leon still has one quality move to make.

For what’s worth (nothing or close to) former Heat backup-C Omer Yurtseven was waived by the Jazz (who drafted Filipowski).

Reading the tea leaves, you get the impression the Knicks aren’t panicking and think they have something, or some possibilities, lined up at center.

I’d say it’s a Rorsach Test, and your reading reveals your confidence in our Front Office.

I think the evidence suggests we’re a Buy-Now-Worry-Later front office, not a Meticulously-Plan-For-Every-Outcome group.

Thus, to me, the tea leaves simply suggest our hands our tied and we accepted this as the cost of Bridges and OG.

Far more tea leaves that this was a Dolan encouraged/demanded move and the pros are now left to clean up the mess. The Spida re-up yesterday is yet another of said leaves.

I’m a Ranger fan as well. If there’s anything that defines Dolan from a substantive perspective, it’s that once he knows there are young/cheap assets or cap room laying around and that they can be spent on older “stars,” they eventually won’t be allowed to lay around. It’s actually a tell on what Dolan thinks of Leon, and Leon’s ability to manage up, that the Knick assets actually even survived this long.

I think the Mitchell extension was more about another max contract later for Mitchell than anything to do with the Knicks.

We can use the TMLE on someone else and still sign Precious using his bird rights, subject to whichever apron we’re hard capped at of course.

Thanks… so it seems like the only consequence of not extending the QO was we lost the right to match any offer.

This makes things a little more complicated. If we sign Precious for $4mm and use the TPMLE ($5mm), that’s $5mm less than we can offer Burks, and subsequently less flexibility.

I’m not sure there is anyone at the TPMLE I want more than that flexibility. Only Lowry comes to mind.

E, I really have to applaud the audacity of your current narrative, where you suggest that James Dolan, the star-fucker to end all star-fuckers, who is obsessed with bringing in the biggest possible names, would have demanded that his POBO put everything on the table to acquire Mikal Bridges — a guy who has never been an All-Star, probably will never be an All-Star, and isn’t remotely a name talked about outside of NBA nerd circles and among the 26 fans of the Brooklyn Nets — in order to satiate his star lust.

That is top, top, top notch stuff, my friend. The people who write 9-1-1: Lone Star couldn’t come up with something so wild.

@wojespn
Free agent LeBron James has agreed to a two-year, $104 maximum million deal to return to the Los Angeles Lakers, sources tell ESPN. Deal includes no trade clause.

Woj then added that there’s also a player option.

It ratfucks BKN, as well. “Brooklyn’s best player??!?!?!?! Get it done!!!!!”

We’re talking about Dolan here. Your missive presumes Dolan’s opinion of a “star” jibes with reality. Moreover, he might have just delegated the details to Leon and just told Leon to bring in the star he’d been promising.

Repeating: We’re talking about Dolan here.

I get that people want to believe.

I think the evidence is overwhelming that we’re a Buy-Now-Worry-Later front office, not a Plan-For-Every-Outcome group.

And sometimes you understand the possibilities and understand there are no really good options.

Everyone here understood we were capped in how much we could spend on I hart and someone could make an offer he couldn’t refuse. The front office was aware of that. They were also aware a guy they understandably covet (Bridges) was going on the market to be moved now and virtually every good team was interested. They had also waited 2 years since Mitchell for a top player they liked to shake loose.

They decided to bag Bridges now and address costarter/backup center as a second priority. The didn’t see a center reachable in the draft that could jump right in, and weren’t crazy about the fungible centers who have signed with their new teams at the current prices, so like the Congress and the budget, they kicked the can down the road.

Tomorrow being the 4th, thinking of the men in the Second Continental Congress mulling over Independence, there choices were to remain vassals to a King an ocean away or fight a war vs the strongest worldwide military the world had ever seen with 3,00,000 folks and a few muskets and cannon, knowing full well they would all be hung or drawn and quartered if they failed. Not a great choice…. but it worked out pretty well 🙂

James Dolan found out who Mikal Bridges is when the trade was announced

Using a draft pick on a guy no one really regards as an NBA player doesn’t buy you much loyalty huh?

They had also waited 2 years since Mitchell for a top player they liked to shake loose.

With Giannis and Booker, the objective “potentially available superstar market” is as good now as probably any time in Leon’s tenure. There’s really no evidence that it’s dried up, therefore serving as a major factor in spending the assets now as opposed to later, as the Knicks are spinning it.

Slinging BS isn’t really a tea leaf showing careful planning.

It ratfucks BKN, as well.

Quite the opposite. Logic says Brooklyn independently decided on a tear down with Houston being the preferred trade partner and all we did was give them more assets than they otherwise would have gotten.

And in terms of Spida and the order of events being leak of a Spida extension and Dolan orders Leon to trade for Bridges, a perhaps more likely one is we trade for Bridges, Spida sees a NY move is out of the question and extends. But given both are speculation, bidiong’s view that they aren’t connected is probably the best one.

I get that people want to believe.

I get that people want to believe all kinds of things.

The “order of events” is Leon knows/hears Spida, his best hope, is getting extended a few weeks ago, is hearing Dolan telling him to get the star, decides to stop fighting the power and throws his chips in.

Then spins the press that he’d determined the potentially available superstar market had dried up, knowing Spida was going to announce an extension in a couple weeks.

It is not objectively true that the potentially available superstar market had dried up. If anything, it’s better now than in recent memory.

When the spun premise is BS, work back from there.

While I am willing to hear the notion that some of what is being transmitted to the beat writers is damage control on the part of the FO, I do not think that any center willing to take the minimum or TPMLE (ie. the Xavier Tillmans of the world) are really going to make a material difference. There’s no doubt that in my mind that if we had wanted Tillman, we probably could have gotten him. He took a 2 year minimum deal to be fighting it out to be the 3rd or 4th center for Boston (behind KP, Horford, Luke Kornet) – we easily could have offered him the same contract and the likelihood of being the main backup C. And players who are marginally better (Goga, for example) are getting paid more than the TPMLE and so not really available to us.

I listened a little further into the podcast with Katz/Macri (haven’t finished yet) and can add to Alan’s post that they spent some time talking about his impression from last season that Thibs DID want to look into smaller lineups with OG basically playing center – but that he didn’t really lean into it because of the OG injuries and to make sure he got acclimated to the main role.

TBH – Mitch, Precious, and Sims as break-in-case-of-emergency 3rd big, plus a liberal sprinkling of Randle/OG at the 4/5 doesn’t seem so bad to me. Obv I would rather have Hartenstein, but it’s probably not a terrible thing for Thibs and the team to develop some comfort with a switching-type D given our issues guarding Indiana with our center-in-drop usual defense.

The main issue is Mitch’s injury history. If he were an iron man, I would have no issue with Mitch/Precious/Sims. I mean, most teams don’t have 2 legitimate starting centers. But Precious/Sims with Mitch on the injured list is a bit frightening for a team looking to make serious noise.

“Then spins the press…”

Trying to figure out a pattern where Leon has “spun the press”. After the OG trade when fan fave IQ was traded?–nope. After we traded Obi for a couple of 2nds?–nope. After the whole Kemba debacle?–nope. Perhaps after the whiff on Mitchell when he stated ” we like who we have” but that is not really spinning. But now, when he has the most amount of goodwill and needs the least amount of spinning, he’s at it full force.

Far more tea leaves that this was a Dolan encouraged/demanded move

Like I said, a Rorsach Test 🙂

Slinging BS isn’t really a tea leaf showing careful planning.

Using the term slinging BS shows a remarkable lack of self awareness.

They were also aware a guy they understandably covet (Bridges) was going on the market to be moved now and virtually every good team was interested. They had also waited 2 years since Mitchell for a top player they liked to shake loose.

They decided to bag Bridges now and address costarter/backup center as a second priority. The didn’t see a center reachable in the draft that could jump right in, and weren’t crazy about the fungible centers who have signed with their new teams at the current prices, so like the Congress and the budget, they kicked the can down the road.

Am I wrong or are you describing the same Buy-Now-Worry-Later philosophy I attribute to them?

Be mindful, Bob, that I don’t think that’s a bad philosophy.

Many teams overthink, overplan, and are left with nothing.

I personally am more of a Hamlet, and frankly I don’t think it’s a good thing. I often admire men who say “fuck it” and do the thing that I see a million reasons not to.

So when I describe Leon this way I’m not putting him down. I wouldn’t have made the Hart trade, for instance. Too many variables. But Leon took action and he was right.

Trying to figure out a pattern where Leon has “spun the press”

“We think the potentially available superstar market is drying up over the short and medium term and that was a big factor in us moving now” is quintessential spinning the press.

(Not to mention that the only reason any explanation at all is warranted is because it’s an obvious overpay and obviously contradictory to the stated philosophy.)

I personally am more of a Hamlet, and frankly I don’t think it’s a good thing. I often admire men who say “fuck it” and do the thing that I see a million reasons not to.

Paul George was the non-melancholy-Dane move here.

In terms of “tea leaves” and “planning” I don’t even think they planned out the OG move well. It left big roster gaps they’re still scrambling to fill and they used talented young player assets rather than draft picks and overpaid.

Big picture, I don’t see the in-out chart as good planning in the least. It’s actually poor planning.

I should extra-clarify that if Fred gets the Knicks to say that they didn’t trade for DJM or sign Drummond because of “chemistry” issues, he’s ferreted out news and should report that news and has done his readership and journalism generally a service by doing so.

The main issue is Mitch’s injury history. If he were an iron man, I would have no issue with Mitch/Precious/Sims.

Agreed.

I wonder if we put Mitch Rules in place next year, like no back-to-backs, a maximum amount of consecutive minutes played, etc.

I know that’s anathema to Thibs but we cannot afford to let him do to Mitch what he did to Hartenstein in Jan/Feb.

Going into this offseason, the Knicks are better than they have been in 30 years, tickets are sold out at ridiculously high prices and selling at double that on the aftermarket, and they own the back pages over the rival that beat them to Durant, Irving, and Harden. In a recent interview, Dolan said that he has nothing to do with the Knicks anymore and is focused on the Sphere.

But behind the scenes, Dolan told Leon that he doesn’t give a shit about all of the above, Leon better land a star at all costs, like NOW, or else!! And Leon, fearful for his job, convinced Dolan that Mikal isn’t a star per se, but it would fulfill the Nova Dream Team strategy while burying the Nets for the foreseeable future.

Makes a whole lot of sense. Leon the Puppet is off the hook for all of these moves, being that Dolan is clearly pulling the strings again.

I’m surprised E is making the PG/Mitcell argument, as neither was ever likely to come here, when the Murray argument is actually a much better one. He doesn’t fit as seamlessly as Bridges but the cost was so much lower and he doesn’t minimize Donte as much. I personally like the Bridges-and-pray plan more bc it has higher upside but the Murray plan was a more conservative play.

Am I wrong or are you describing the same Buy-Now-Worry-Later philosophy I attribute to them?

I honestly don’t disagree with you on substance a lot, just the way you portray things sometimes.

You characterize the events as buy now worry later which sounds rather flippant and irresponsible while I would characterize the same events as making the optimal decision available 🙂

The USS Rudderless Mess has finally run aground on the rocky shoals of Ogeenova Island.

interesting reading of today’s thread…sounds like we are all ready fir summer league to begin…

also need to check to see when the olympics get underway…

someone mentioned Slovenia and Greece playing a qualifying match soon, I’d like to watch that…

was a 100 degrees here in the south bay yesterday, and the air quality was still in the 20’s, there are just sooooo many trees everywhere…

I miss the trees from new york, especially upstate…

There are legitimately a lot of interesting things going on in Knicks world right now, so might I lightly suggest that we don’t have to indulge what I would be worried were the paranoid ramblings of someone descending into a dark place IF I didn’t know said person was just carrying on an insufferable bit.

I honestly don’t disagree with you on substance a lot, just the way you portray things sometimes.

This is understandable. I have Multiple Online Personality Disorder and I can switch between voices on a dime. Any reader expecting consistency would rightly assume since I was criticizing Leon Rose for two days that this is a criticism, as well.

But I consider the Buy-Now-Worry-Later statement to be nonjudgmental. If Leon had waited until he had a backup plan for Hartenstein, he probably would have missed his window to get Bridges and could have been left with nowhere to sit when the music stopped.

IMO he is simply taking an incredible risk. He jumped out of the plane without a parachute like Keanu in Point Break. It’s ballsy. I admire it. But I’m afraid he will miss linking up with Patrick Swayze in the mid-air circle and we’ll be picking pieces of him up off the PCH in Malibu.

just about to hit level 100 in Fallout 76…just now really setting up my C.A.M.P. …housing is like a game in of itself…

there’s kind of a bunch of “pay to win” stuff in their item shop…I haven’t done any pvp yet in the game – so the pay to win stuff doesn’t really bug me…

finally got a jet pack, that was a bit of a grind to get that installed…

currently have 3 sets of power armor: Hellcat, Ultracite, and Excavator…

mostly using the Chinese Stealth Arnor…before I add any more power armor mods, need to grind another 4,000 or so gold bouillon to grab the Secret Service armor set, that’ll take a few weeks…

i seem to have a weak spot for these grind and find games…

hmmmmm, in a good groove I guess – walk the dog and play video games all day while waiting for my friend to come home…

I am currently a kept man, and life is good…

In defence of a certain poster, his take that Dolan’s hands are all over this is new, I had not thought of (perhaps for good reason), and worthy of debate and rebuttal. It also can potentially be proven wrong, which is something…

Ucccchhhh.

What in G-d’s name are you talking about, geo?
“finally got a jet pack, that was a bit of a grind to get that installed…

currently have 3 sets of power armor: Hellcat, Ultracite, and Excavator…

mostly using the Chinese Stealth Arnor…before I add any more power armor mods, need to grind another 4,000 or so gold bouillon to grab the Secret Service armor set, that’ll take a few weeks…”

Frank captured most of the other Katz/Macri stuff of note. One thing I should clarify from earlier, re: Drummond: Fred framed it not as something he heard from anyone in the front office, but as him putting two and two together based on his knowledge of this particular organization and the NBA at large. As in, the Knicks have gone out of their way to fill the roster with fanatical worker types, and Drummond’s reputation (while good in many other ways) is very much not that, so he would have been a bit surprised if they had gone after Drummond.

“In defence of a certain poster, his take that Dolan’s hands are all over this is new, I had not thought of (perhaps for good reason), and worthy of debate and rebuttal. It also has the ability to potentially be proven wrong, which is something…”

Mikal secretly threatened Leon that if he didn’t do whatever it took to reunite him with his ‘Nova buddies, he was going to release unsavory AI-generated photos of Leon in compromising positions to the media. Prove me wrong!

In terms of “tea leaves” and “planning” I don’t even think they planned out the OG move well. It left big roster gaps they’re still scrambling to fill and they used talented young player assets rather than draft picks and overpaid.

The OG move is when they crossed the Rubicon. We could have just traded IQ for some choice picks and ended up in the IND/ORL/PHI section of the playoffs with considerably greater flexibility right now.

There is definitely an element of Dolan driving the choice to avert that patient route. I don’t think he forced it like E is implying, but I imagine his impatience is a mandate that is felt by the FO.

“The OG move is when they crossed the Rubicon. We could have just traded IQ for some choice picks and ended up in the IND/ORL/PHI section of the playoffs with considerably greater flexibility right now.”

…and you have evidence that IQ in a contract year was going to net you some choice picks, right?

“There is definitely an element of Dolan driving the choice to avert that patient route. I don’t think he forced it like E is implying, but I imagine his impatience is a mandate that is felt by the FO.”

Normally when someone uses the word “definitely” there is some actual evidence for that opinion. Is there?

the Knicks have gone out of their way to fill the roster with fanatical worker types

Wasn’t Josh Hart well known for treating practice as if he was a jumbo sized version of AI?

(Not criticizing him, it’s not easy to play 53 min per game :D)

Farfa, I get the sense that Hart gets an exemption from this because he’s a maniac when the games actually happen, and it’s clear he prepares his body as hard as possible. He just doesn’t try hard in practice, and everyone — even Thibs — accepts it, because it’s hard to look at what he does when the lights are bright and ever accuse him of laziness.

We could have just traded IQ for some choice picks and ended up in the IND/ORL/PHI section of the playoffs with considerably greater flexibility right now.

Actually I need to amend that… we would have likely ended up in the play-in tournament without the OG trade, especially if we had traded IQ.

That’s your major “patient vs impatient” fork in the road.

It also can potentially be proven wrong, which is something…

I completely disagree and think the fact that it can’t is, as always, a large part of the appEal.

No reporter is going to waste time tracking down the scoop that James Dolan wasn’t specifically involved in this trade because it’s been widely reported that he’s not involved with basketball operations anymore in general.

On the off chance someone does? Well, that’s just what The OG People fed them, man. Stay Woke.

Now, if Dolan was materially involved, that would be a hell of a scoop, and would likely leak soon after the trade–recall that all kinds of reports of Dolan’s influence on the Melo trade emerged before the trade was even done!

So as usual we’ve got Calvin Ball. It leaks that Dolan was involved and E is right, or it doesn’t, and E is right because The OG People covered it up.

Yaaaaaaaaaaaawn.

Kudos to everyone for ignoring the hyper-repetitive troll who has been trying to start a flame war with every one of his posts today.

Now if only some of you could learn to ignore E the way all of us ignore Z-Man.

Farfa, I get the sense that Hart gets an exemption from this because he’s a maniac when the games actually happen, and it’s clear he prepares his body as hard as possible. He just doesn’t try hard in practice, and everyone — even Thibs — accepts it, because it’s hard to look at what he does when the lights are bright and ever accuse him of laziness.

Yes, I get it completely, I was just making fun of that assumption.

There couldn’t be a more different body language from Hart’s than Drummond’s, so the meaning is totally clear.

The OG move is when they crossed the Rubicon. We could have just traded IQ for some choice picks and ended up in the IND/ORL/PHI section of the playoffs with considerably greater flexibility right now.

I don’t think there is any way if you traded IQ for only picks (and I’m not sure there was a big market to get multiple good picks for a guy that was looking for 35M) and the 2 games over .500 at the time were anything other than a play in team, if that. Imagine Randle goes out Feb 1st and there is no IQ, no OG and Barrett must increase his usage… how does that team make the play in?

It is clear the FO prioritized long switchable wings who can shoot 3’s and play plus defense and he has acquired 2 excellent players of that description.

If we traded IQ for assets that didn’t provide present value…I mean the team would simply not be very good. Probably play-in or worse given the all the injuries this past season, and in no position to make a big trade this offseason because we’d be adding to a high 30s/low 40s win core.

Maybe you can squint and say that path, the mystery box path, instead of the one where we get to 50+ (and as far as the upcoming season is concerned, I’m betting on the +) wins by trading for OG and Mikal is preferable.

Not really buying it. “A 55 win team is a 55 win team, but the mystery box could be anything! It could even be a 55 win team! You know how much we’ve always wanted one of those!”

You’re right, Bob. I amended that a few minutes after the edit function expired.

It’s fun to speculate, though. At least I think it is. Does Randle get hurt if we’re not up 20 against Miami? Does Hartenstein get free agent hype if we’re a plodding 44 win team? Do we draft Jared McCain as the perfect IQ replacement with our top 15 pick?

Contrary to Noble above, I don’t have to squint very hard to see a path where we’re much better long term without the OG trade.

Russell’s Teapot all up in this bitch

E is close, but he’s not going deep enough. The real situation becomes obvious if you continue to dig.

For instance, did you know that Brunson has trademarked a bunch of restaurant names like “Home Slices” “Pizza Pals” and “The Pie Guys”?

Also, consider this: most of these Nova guys run youth basketball camps in summers.

“What could that possibly mean,” you ask?

I’ll tell you, but I will have to disappear for a while after this:

We’re looking at a fully-funded, Dolan orchestrated, child sex slave ring being born, using no less than hundreds of basketball camps and pizza places on the East coast where liberals can do horrible things to our kids.

THINK ABOUT IT: They needed Mikal, with his Phoenix connections (yes, Mat Ishbia and our old friend Isaiah Thomas are involved), as the final puzzle piece, and no amount of draft picks were going to matter in the end.

And considering Dolan’s connections to the Masons, I’m pretty sure there will even be ritual killings at some of these covert meeting halls. Seriously, this will make Pizzagate look like a tiny blip on the map.

Take off your blindfolds and see what is right in front of you! Led by E, we can continue to fight this trade, but we may have to take up arms soon. My informants have a dog whistle ready for this occasion and I will be in touch if/when that happens. Until then, good luck to you all…

It’s fun to speculate, though. At least I think it is. Does Randle get hurt if we’re not up 20 against Miami? Does Hartenstein get free agent hype if we’re a plodding 44 win team? Do we draft Jared McCain as the perfect IQ replacement with our top 15 pick?

It is but it is like speculating about 11 dimensions of string theory or branes in Lisa Randall’s theory of multiple universes. A this point as someone likes to say, “Its unfalsifiable!” 🙂

Once again, Hubert has proven that he is too clueless to live up to his own admonishments to the board, namely to criticize basketball points, not posters. My responses to Hubert’s posts were all about content, not character. I asked for evidence to back up his statements about Dolan’s involvement, and IQ’s value. Since there is none, let’s go back to criticizing the poster who dares to challenge those evidence-free musings.

“I have Multiple Online Personality Disorder and I can switch between voices on a dime” pretty much says it all, doesn’t it?

“If we traded IQ for assets that didn’t provide present value…I mean the team would simply not be very good. Probably play-in or worse given the all the injuries this past season, and in no position to make a big trade this offseason because we’d be adding to a high 30s/low 40s win core.

Maybe you can squint and say that path, the mystery box path, instead of the one where we get to 50+ (and as far as the upcoming season is concerned, I’m betting on the +) wins by trading for OG and Mikal is preferable.

Not really buying it.”

TROLL!

See how easy it is to ignore someone begging for your attention?

Now you guys try it.

See how easy it is to make up shit and to ignore calls for evidence?

Now you guys please don’t try it.

Normally when someone uses the word “definitely” there is some actual evidence for that opinion. Is there?

There’s a literal shit-ton of evidence.

1. Dolan’s “managerial” style over 25 years of running the Knicks and Rangers.

2. The terms of the trade itself, i.e., massive overpay.

3. The well-known, oft-reported, oft-leaked philosophy the Knicks were employing of hoarding picks to trade them for a superstar.

4. The max extension of Spida.

5. The stylistic and positional overlap between Mikal and OG.

6. The leaving of a massive roster gap and the scrambling around to fill it.

7. The fact that the trade hard-caps them at the first apron.

There’s probably more, but that’s more than enough.

The OG move is when they crossed the Rubicon. We could have just traded IQ for some choice picks and ended up in the IND/ORL/PHI section of the playoffs with considerably greater flexibility right now.

That path, if done right, also could have added DJM to the roster at a cut-rate price.

Contrary to Noble above, I don’t have to squint very hard to see a path where we’re much better long term without the OG trade.

I’m fine with OG if done right, but I will say also that the idea that they had an “obvious need for an elite defensive wing” that OG then filled is completely imaginary given the 2023 (*) playoffs.

(*) And to a degree even 2024.

hahahahahahahahaha…imagining you in a meeting, or on a call confidently and proudly exclaiming:

There’s a literal shit-ton of evidence.

They didn’t take a center earlier than 58 because they don’t want to be relying on a rookie center taken in the 20s in a weak draft to be a part of a healthy rotation

I think this unquestionably true.

I feel the same way about their unwillingness to maneuver themselves into a position to get one of the free agent Cs.

Leon has show a lot of patience trying to get very specific players at each position that fit the culture and that fit together. He’s not going to jump through hoops for a backup C that isn’t exactly what they want and that isn’t a substantially better fit than Precious and Sims.

We’ll see if he can arrange a trade now or they may just go into the season with Mitch, Precious, Sims and the rookie, see how it’s going, and then revisit C at the deadline.

We’d all prefer for this to be fully settled going into the season, but Leon has been building brick by brick each year with solid moves. If Mitch can remain healthy we are close to done. If he breaks down, there will be one more brick.

I don’t think it’s *literally* 2,000 pounds of shit. At least I highly doubt it.

Leon has show a lot of patience trying to get very specific players at each position that fit the culture and that fit together.

Scully/Mulder and all, but OG and Mikal really don’t fit that well together.

They don’t *necessarily* not fit well together — we’ll see on the court — but at initial glance there’s redundancy, overlap, and the likely need for one both to play out of position that can’t be missed. But there’s really no accurate sense in which it can be said at this point that Leon accomplished anything because of their “fit.”

5. The stylistic and positional overlap between Mikal and OG.

I know I’m supposed to not be responding to you, but this shit really makes you look like you don’t understand the modern NBA even one iota. Bridges and Anunoby both play the position of “wing” and you need at least two of those on the floor. Now we have two that can both defend and shoot, and one of them can even create a little offense. There is no “positional overlap” between them. There are five players on the court at any given time, with two of them playing the position “wing.” You need two!

I don’t really give a shit about the rest of whatever dumb argument you are making but do us all a favor and stop embarrassing yourself with “positional overlap.”

Last couple of Katz/Macri things:

1)Fred says the most likely outcome of the rest of the offseason is that this is our roster, give or take the return of one or both of Precious and Allan Burress. He endorsed re-signing both, in part because of how hard the new CBA makes acquiring talent.

2)In talking about how we can avoid being hard-capped at the first apron, he said we could add Diakite and “the two second round picks” — i.e., McCullers and Hukporti — to make the math work. So perhaps we shouldn’t be spending too much more time on the Hukporti film sessions just yet?

I feel like I’ve been the biggest IQ fan on the forum going back to about a week after the draft when I did due diligence on him and located an article that demonstrated his dramatic statistical improvement from the start of his last college year to the end. I was all in making the case then and all in every step of the way since then. I still love his game. But even I was OK with the OG trade. The reality was that OG was a monumental upgrade from RJ on both sides (which is why he had such a huge impact on our results). OG gave us more efficient scoring, much better spacing, and a much better and more flexible defense. I argued he was the perfect for at least a year. The cost was RJ’s upside and Quickley. We aren’t likely to get a starting caliber PG to play backup like Quickley was, but DDV has plenty of positive attributes as a scorer off the bench and we just added a PG in the draft that looks interesting.

For me, it was a tough pill to swallow, but it had to be done.

The reality was that OG was a monumental upgrade from RJ on both sides (which is why he had such a huge impact on our results).

It can be stipulated that OG seemed to “work better” in Thibs’s offense with these players, but OTOH it isn’t remotely “the reality” that he’s an offensive upgrade from RJ. TOR RJ was way better offensively. (And was a significantly better rebounder.)

Nor was RJ’s market value around the association premised on “the offense that he showed ex post in Thibs’s offense with the current Knick players.” Market value does not work that way. If that’s the value Leon put on him, Leon did it completely wrong.

Scully/Mulder and all, but OG and Mikal really don’t fit that well together.

They do when you want a great switchable perimeter defense backed up by an elite rim protector.

They do when you want a great switchable perimeter defense backed up by an elite rim protector.

Basketball includes offense as well as defense.

Well there it is, E has predicted “TOR RJ” is here to stay. He believes RJ Barrett will have a .615 TS% next season. I don’t agree, but props for making a prediction. I’ll bookmark the thread and see how it pans out!

Of course, Strat. Crossing the Rubicon isn’t a bad thing! It worked out pretty well for Caesar.

I called it the point of no return bc it forced us to reckon with impending apron issues. The OG acquisition and his subsequent payday took us from “we can take our time and wait for the best option” to “time is gonna run out fast and we have to take the best option available now.”

I have also come to think there is a very reasonable speculative argument that getting OG ultimately cost us Hartenstein. I don’t think he would have gotten $30MM bids without our 2nd half run.

For whatever reason, the Falsifiable Prediction (TM) has become TNFH’s white whale. But no, there’s no prediction of any TS% there for any player, nor any prediction of any kind.

It can be stipulated that OG seemed to “work better” in Thibs’s offense with these players, but OTOH it isn’t remotely “the reality” that he’s an offensive upgrade from RJ. TOR RJ was way better offensively.

Disagree

RJ has a better handle and ability to create his own shot. That can get him around the rim better where he can score more often, but he also often throws up a brick, gets his shot blocked or turns the ball over after he dribbled himself into a mess.

You want better usage. We agree on that. But efficiency counts.

I’d way rather have better shot selection, better efficiency, better 3 point shooting and spacing and continue working on OG’s handle.

We know Brunson is our #1. Either Randle or Bridges will be our #2 or they’ll be 2a and 2b. What we need from OG is to create space for those guys with around 40% on 3s, overpower people around the rim on occasion, score after making a steal etc… and keep doing what he’s doing. He just has to give 15 efficient points per night, spacing and great defense. RJ could not do that. If he improves his handle, that’s gravy.

Of course, Strat. Crossing the Rubicon isn’t a bad thing! It worked out pretty well for Caesar.

And if you believe Brunson is a tentpole, crossing the Rubicon makes perfect sense. But Caesar didn’t cross the Rubicon and then trade the Gauls six legions for two elephants.

But Caesar didn’t cross the Rubicon and then trade the Gauls six legions for two elephants.

Say what you want but the guy writes well.

Basketball includes offense as well as defense.

I have to qualify this because I don’t know what’s going to happen with Mitch, but barring catastrophic injuries, IMO we are going to have a top 5 defense and a top 10 offense. DDV to Mikal on defense is a plus and a full year of OG is plus on both sides. The loss of I-Hart will hurt the offense, but Mikal has more diverse scoring abilities than DDV and we’ll have a better bench with DDV there.

The one thing that I believe makes sense even though there isn’t hard evidence for it is that Dolan hired Leon with the assumption that Leon would not go for a multi-year down-to-the-studs rebuild.

Everything else you cite as evidence is pretty much baked into the hybrid rebuild philosophy. However, I never once heard Leon directly state that he was hoarding picks to land a superstar…it was just a logical inference that the hybrid method would not work without doing just that. This is why the more level-headed skeptics were saying that Leon should go all-in on Spida, and then on Embiid, even though either move would likely put a hard ceiling on the team at a below-true-contender level.

Lo and behold, the Knicks duped Cuban out of Brunson, who by E’s own admission, has blossomed into a tentpole. There are now two legit all-NBA players on the roster, both at below-market-level contracts. Leon acquired that star, a player who is actually better than Spida, without having to use even one of the hoarded first rounders!

Then, since the salary cap clock was rapidly ticking, Leon tacked to “build around Brunson.” It has been known for some time that they had soured on Spida as a target due to poor fit with Brunson (I’ll leave the task of finding evidence for this to E, it should be pretty simple.) He used the young drafted players/picks cache to acquire two elite complementary players that are perfect fits for what the team needed. He paid what most thought was a reasonable price for unsigned OG, then significantly overpaid for a one-of-a kind opportunity to complete the Nova Connection, then predictably overpaid OG due to market conditions.

None of this reeks of Dolan’s meddling, beyond the original sin of hiring a POBO that eschewed a tank-based approach.

EVIDENCE

here’s a little more color on why i’m a bit more pessimistic on the center status quo. the first prong is that i have an anomalous take on how good mitch was last year before he got hurt. i do think he was good. but i consider consensus to be that he was somewhere in the vicinity of a fringe dpoy candidate, and i don’t think he was anywhere close.

the high level (but admittedly highly confounded) stats do support this case. pre inury, opponents scored 116/100 with mitch on the court, while shooting 31% of their shots at the rim with a fg% of 71%. these are worse than the average nba defense. ofc, many things contribute to this besides mitch, but it is hard to be dpoy candidate 5 and allow those rim numbers — don’t think it’s ever happened. when mitch was on the bench in those 21 games, opponents had a rim freq of 26.7% and a rim fg% of 63.2%. i have some theories about why he looked better to most observers than he was, but again i do also think these numbers belie the fact that he was a good defensive player. just not great.

my corollary to this is that mitch and randle in particular are a poor defensive match because randle’s defensive archetype exacerbates mitch’s few rim protecting weaknesses. over the last three seasons mitch/randle together have played 6500 possessions allowing 66.9% rim fg% (average is about 66%) vs. 62.33% in the other 17K knick possessions. and i think there is more risk to mitch slowing down than there is upside to him playing better than he was early last year.

combine this with: being a little more wary of the randle (OG) at the 5 lineups, being lower on both precious and sims than average and having consensus concern about mitch getting hurt, and i really, really hope we manage to find a different option at 5 before the trade deadline. i still think we’ll be a very formidable team with healthy mitch and that the small lineup might work okay in regular season spurts.

SCONES
THONGS

Not necessarily in that order.

Damn, Milo. I didn’t know the p stood for Pagliacci 😉

(Seriously though that’s the most depressing take I’ve read since iHart left, and I fear you’re likely very right.)

I have also come to think there is a very reasonable speculative argument that getting OG ultimately cost us Hartenstein. I don’t think he would have gotten $30MM bids without our 2nd half run.

IHart playing big minutes well cost us iHart. In my order of why that happened it is iHart, Mitch being out, JB’s breaking out due in part with meshing with iHart, Thibs being flexible, and the OG trade. Now if you decide the OG trade were the reasons for JB and Thibs, then it moves to 3rd. But the fact remains iHart got paid because he played better and we played better. Win win outcome as we are not predicting a barely above .500 team next year.

Wasn’t Josh Hart well known for treating practice as if he was a jumbo sized version of AI?

(Not criticizing him, it’s not easy to play 53 min per game :D)

My guess is that Hart is a gym rat, but does not put the physical or mental effort for team practices.

“I have also come to think there is a very reasonable speculative argument that getting OG ultimately cost us Hartenstein. I don’t think he would have gotten $30MM bids without our 2nd half run.”

For some reason I recall someone here arguing that iHart was the real reason we were good, citing the team’s play in games iHart played but that OG sat out with injury. But sure, Presti, being the stats-averse rube that he is, would probably not have noticed that it was iHart all along, would have ignored all of his advanced stats, and had no interest in outbidding us for him. Yep, that makes sense.

I recall someone here arguing that iHart was the real reason we were good

No you don’t, you’re just being a troll again. Here’s what you actually read:

As counter to the argument that “Everything started when OG got here ergo he alone is the key”, I introduced an alternative argument, namely that OG was one of three major factors that contributed to the January Supernova, all of which started at the exact same time:

Factor 1: OG arrived
Factor 2: Hartenstein found his groove after replacing Mitch in the starting lineup
Factor 3: We transferred Barrett’s shot attempts to Donte

Without OG’s arrival and with RJ Barrett still in the starting lineup (not to mention the loss of IQ), Hartenstein’s move to the starting lineup would not have turned us into a supernova.

Did the same poster who recently opined that iHart’s value was actually diminished by his playoff performances vs. Embiid and in game 7 vs. Indiana now speculate that Presti would be less likely to have interest in iHart if we didn’t finish the season that we did? Interesting.

Get a room you two

here’s a little more color on why i’m a bit more pessimistic on the center status quo.

I think we absolutely, positively have to acquire a center who can hold down the fort as the worst starter on a team with aspirations of making a deep playoff run. It’s a clear need.

I am just reasonably optimistic the opportunity to get someone who fits that description at a non-prohibitive cost will emerge sometime between now and the deadline. Dallas got Daniel Gafford for the 26th pick this past deadline. It’s the position I’m most comfortable being temporarily unsettled.

For teams with championship aspirations, I don’t think there’s such thing as “we’ll address point guard and/or wing later.” The same isn’t true of center IMO.

Hmm…who said this:

“It’s also worth pointing out Hartenstein started every single one of those games that factored into OG Anunoby’s 20-3 record. We were 0-5 without Hartenstein after the OG trade. Could very well be that y’all have been crediting the wrong guy.”

And this:

“I’m kind of in a “fuck Isaiah Hartenstein” mood, to be honest, and have been since he no-showed half the playoffs, including that goose-egg in game 7.”

…but also this:

“(But honestly I’m only dogging iHart because I’m bitter, which is childish but whatever.)”

FWIW, I definitely agree with the bitter and childish part…

I’ve been doing a lot of scouting and think that this kid Isaiah Hartenstein on the Thunder would be an amazing fit for us. I’m wondering if we have the assets to work out a trade with OKC for him. Would be funny to have a Hart-to-Hart connection too!

TNFH, that’s pretty much where I am at right now. At the end of the day, the cake is baked. A lot will have to go right if we are going to get over the top. I don’t think we’ll ever be preseason favorites with this roster, but if some breaks go our way, I like our chances to find a decent C who doesn’t get paid $29M along the way, and if need be, a decent Mitch alternative should he go down. If we can’t/don’t, I’ll worry about that then.

I called it the point of no return bc it forced us to reckon with impending apron issues. The OG acquisition and his subsequent payday took us from “we can take our time and wait for the best option” to “time is gonna run out fast and we have to take the best option available now.

Management made a decision to accelerate the rebuild a few years ago and imo did a great job of getting us an OG injury away from the conference finals with an unfinished product.

We can’t debate the proper way to rebuild anymore. In my mind that’s settled. You can do it a variety of ways equally well. What matters is the competence of the rebuilders and luck.

We made our next big move. We brought in Bridges who has been on our supposedly unreachable wish list for almost as long as OG. I’m not sure what it takes to make Knicks fans happy. Maybe if they threw in a few “unprotected” picks for us to take him off their hands. 😉

Losing I-Hart was a setback, but imo not critical setback. He’s good, but he’s not THAT good. We do have Mitch. It was just a few months ago we all thought he was our C of the future. He has to get healthy and be at 100%. He was often playing less than 100% last year even when he was playing.

Personally, I thought they’d have a plan B to execute now given the chances of losing I-Hart increased once we all saw the Claxton deal, but I was wrong. However, I don’t blame them for not drafting a C earlier or jumping through hoops to land someone in fee agency they didn’t really like.

I can wait to see what happens with any potential deals now and then see how Mitch looks and make some kind of move later. I think I know what’s going to happen and have said so.

I think Mikal is going to show that he’s capable of being a #2 option, OG can easily be the #3 option and we are going to trade Randle at the deadline for a C, slide OG to 4, and bring either DDV or J-Hart into the starting lineup.

Even reading the very sobering (and realistic) ptmilo take on our post-iHart situation I still think we’re second best in the East – barring devastating injuries to core guys, and no I’m not counting Mitch among them because I don’t think we can expect more than 55 games from him.

That’s very, very rosy if you think where we’ve been in the last 25-30 years. I think that apart from the few real trolls on this site everyone can be happy about the results, while not necessarily thinking that Leon and Thibs has been the best ever.

I’m saying this because lately I’ve had a modicum of free time and I’d like to read some real basketball takes here, not to navigate between dozens of answers aimed to fake Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy Marvin level of pessimism and bargain bin annoyances.

Not sure what center people have in mind for Randle, but add them to the in-out chart and there’s no way the dissipation of assets leads to a satisfactory final state of OG out of position at the 4 and a lineup of Brunson-DDV-Mikal-OG-Mitch.

No one’s scared of that lineup and if all the planning and thinking was done just to wind up there, it was a waste of time and effort. Return to sender.

What are the chances that Rokas is actually coming over? Does he have the skills to be 2nd or 3rd PG (even that would be valuable)? Even if he is on the back of the roster, we need to improve around the margins with our last guys off the bench. Last year we had too many unplayable players. I like having young players, even if inconsistent, at the end of the bench, mixed with a vet or 2.

I like the idea that we don’t want certain players b/c don’t fit in with the gym rats. Our culture is top notch with very hard working players and chemistry.

Regarding the Marc Spears comment, I like that fact that both Brunson and the Knicks keep not getting respect. I feel it must motivate our team. Keep it up!

Also, we could always pivot. We have a lot of tradeable players, especially with the salary cap increasing the next few years. We are not stuck with this roster, if need be, we can make more trades.

“That’s very, very rosy if you think where we’ve been in the last 25-30 years. I think that apart from the few real trolls on this site everyone can be happy about the results, while not necessarily thinking that Leon and Thibs has been the best ever.

I’m saying this because lately I’ve had a modicum of free time and I’d like to read some real basketball takes here, not to navigate between dozens of answers aimed to fake Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy Marvin level of pessimism and bargain bin annoyances.”

Farfa, you are awesome!

BTW, welcome back TDM! Always great when one of the old-timers pop in!

I’ll be honest here.

I do not understand why you are all playing E’s game of responding to his trolls.

Much of yesterday, most of today. And likely, if you all continue, the rest of the summer. That’s a long fucking summer.

I’m not much interested in people pointing out the inherent and obvious flaws in E’s trolling. They’re obvious and apparent because they are trolling attempts to get attention so he can continue to post over and over. He says outrageous things so he can keep playing.

Don’t play. I’m spending most of my time skipping posts today, which is sad, and may end up disengaging from the site altogether if it continues to be “E says something stupid!” followed by “E is so very obviously wrong!” over and over and over.

There is no single reason we played so well at times after the OG trade.

1. It’s wasn’t so much how great OG is as it was that he replaced RJ. We went from a 2 way negative to a 2-way positive AND improved the spacing. The player qualities may be different, but it was like going from Peyton to first year Brunson.

2. I-Hart is net better than than Mitch

3. J-Hart was pretty bad early in the season and slowly rounded into form to be back to peak for the playoffs.

4. Grimes was struggling a bit and frustrated with his role early in the season and DDV wound up being better than advertised.

All these things can be true and probably contributed at times, but the OG move was gigantic because it was negative to positive and not just the typical upgrade.

strat and farfa…i’m right there with you…nice back to back posts..

That was goofy AF.

Not sure what center people have in mind for Randle, but add them to the in-out chart and there’s no way the dissipation of assets leads to a satisfactory final state of OG out of position at the 4 and a lineup of Brunson-DDV-Mikal-OG-Mitch.

That’s not the lineup.

If they trade Randle (plus whatever) for a C, it’s bringing back an UPGRADE over I-Hart and Mitch and Mitch will become the backup.

You don’t trade Randle+ for a backup C.

OG move was gigantic because it was negative to positive

Especially in Thibs’ system/our roster construction, which probably contributed to deflate RJ’s real basketball value while exhalting OG’s one.

“Personally, I thought they’d have a plan B to execute now given the chances of losing I-Hart increased once we all saw the Claxton deal, but I was wrong. However, I don’t blame them for not drafting a C earlier or jumping through hoops to land someone in fee agency they didn’t really like.”

Fee agency. Yep, that’s about right.

We can’t debate the proper way to rebuild anymore. In my mind that’s settled. You can do it a variety of ways equally well. What matters is the competence of the rebuilders and luck.

I’ve always been on your side with the hybrid. What’s different now, and by your own admission you haven’t paid attention to this, is the aprons.

In the past your hybrid could take time. Our guys are all 26, 27 years old. What’s the rush?

Well now, once the first guy (in this case OG) pushes you into apron territory, you need to make your big move before the next guy (in this case, Randle) you have to pay takes you into the 2nd apron.

OG forced us to make a move now or kick Randle to the curb. We chose the former.

E is an energy vampire from What We Do in the Shadows, lol

This will never, ever, ever happen, but it’s more fun to consider than some of the theories broached today: https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5614281/2024/07/03/pistons-nba-trade-knicks-lakers-bucks/

The Athletic’s Pistons beat writer proposes various ways the new FO can take advantage of their cap space to acquire assets from other teams in tighter cap/tax/apron situations, including:

Pistons receive Mitchell Robinson, Miles McBride, a 2025 first-round pick (via Detroit) and multiple future seconds
Knicks receive Jalen Duren and Jaden Ivey

I’m sure some Pistons fans will hate this and some will love it, but it does allow both sides to meet their objective. For Detroit, it gets both a proven rim protector at the center spot in Robinson and a backup point guard in McBride. Most importantly, the Pistons get back their future first-rounder that makes it very, very hard and puts them at a disadvantage if they were to consider a trade for a top-30-ish player in the very near future. Giving up Duren and Ivey would be tough, as both players still have upside, but the Pistons have to consider giving them extensions next summer, and Langdon didn’t draft either one.

For New York, this trade sheds $6.5 million in salary, so the financial goal is met. Additionally, per league sources, the Knicks were very interested in Ivey during the 2022 NBA Draft and nearly traded for him. A move like this would allow the Knicks to have some young, lottery-pick prospects in the pipeline who can also contribute right now.

I’m not sure what it takes to make Knicks fans happy.

That’s easy: finish the job.

What’s different now, and by your own admission you haven’t paid attention to this, is the aprons.

If they extend Mikal, Randle, and Brunson at market rates, they project to be above the second apron through the decade.

Pistons receive Mitchell Robinson, Miles McBride, a 2025 first-round pick (via Detroit) and multiple future seconds
Knicks receive Jalen Duren and Jaden Ivey

Doubt DET would do this, but I’d do that deal without blinking an eye.

Of course, Strat. Crossing the Rubicon isn’t a bad thing! It worked out pretty well for Caesar.

Until it didn’t 🙂

Trading the fugazy picks back to the terrible teams that own their draft protections seems like it has some potential

Until it didn’t

Et tu, World Wide Wes?

A while ago Zach lowe did a big segment on the Knicks. (Think Fred may have been his guest). He said the Knicks FO was going to use their picks this summer because they realize JB is a superstar. That’s what made us speed up our TL.

I believe Mikal Bridges will improve with his efficiency and overall game with the Knicks for a few reasons. I think he will be in a much happier situation: better team, and with his buddies. I think that will bring at the best in him. I like one of the points Strat said, about Randle and Bridges could possibly be a sort of 2a and 2b. I feel that might happen. Bridges can create pretty decently.

If healthy in the playoffs, having Randle and Bridges’ creation will help Brunson and the team so much. I still would like us to add a vet point guard who can create too.

I’d rather have Mitch than Ivey so I’d skip that part and just do Deuce & the pick for Duren.

Pistons receive Mitchell Robinson, Miles McBride, a 2025 first-round pick (via Detroit) and multiple future seconds
Knicks receive Jalen Duren and Jaden Ivey

Every offseason, and every trade deadline, The Athetic’s Pistons beat writer fills his quota of articles with one full of absurd trade proposals 🙂

If Detroit is ready for this I’d probably do it, I did like what I saw from Duren and Ivey was destroyed by Monty, but we would still be a Duren’s injury away from disaster*.

I want a competent backup Center! 😀

* compared to our Hive’s opinions on our centers, I’m in the 50th percentile on Mitch, the 30th on Precious and the 5th on Sims… and the 65% on Hukporti! 😉

Four year deal for Bronny the Nepo Baby

He said the Knicks FO was going to use their picks this summer because they realize JB is a superstar.

And then we punted one of the picks and drafted an 18 y/o French project with the other 🤷🏻‍♂️

I like the “trade the protected pick back to the crappy team” move that seems to be gaining traction.

I also sort of like rooting for Detroit and Washington to suck less, but not too much less.

Count me as a Hukporti believer

I meant they were going to trade picks for players, which we did. We didn’t accelerate our rebuild because we traded for OG, we did it because we didn’t have to find a superstar anymore

Notice that two posters are whining about the past while everyone else is moving on. Not surprisingly, those two posters already died on Team We’ve Seen Enough Hill long ago and are now doing some kind of make shit up bit to save face. Glad to see so many posters politely asking them to just move on from the tiresome “yeah, but Leon coulda done this and shoulda done that” schtick, at least for a few months.

If they extend Mikal, Randle, and Brunson at market rates, they project to be above the second apron through the decade.

How do you come to this conclusion? The second apron projections for 2024-2025 and beyond are $203,642,000, $219,499,000, $236,591,000, $255,014,000, and $274,871,000.

I’m not seeing how even max extensions for all of these guys get us there “through the decade.”

Fucking idolaters risking it all for us with their false gods dressing all prophetic.

My numbers/apron/salary source is Spotrac.

…but how do you figure the Knicks will exceed the second apron in all of those years? As of now they’re not even particularly close even if you (dubiously) factor in max extensions for the three players you named.

What are the chances that Rokas is actually coming over? Does he have the skills to be 2nd or 3rd PG (even that would be valuable)?

@Nick (Knickerbocker3),

Maybe slightly less than before the draft (’cause of Kolek),
next monday we’ll know if it’ll be Summer League or Olympics for him and then we’ll see.

I think he’s could be in the mix for the 3rd PG role, a role for which you basically need to be a good sparring partner for practices, and who knows if Deuce is really on the market, a thing that could free some playing time for Rokas.

About the skills, I’m not going “full scouting” (I did it in the past, I kind of stalked him for three years 😉 ), let’s say he’s probably a better floor manager than Deuce, but in my eyes a lesser player overall, plus you have to add Kolek to the mix.

He did rarely shine in his 3 years at Barcelona but he’s a good player* and european basketball is much more structured, less “free” and more “cramped”, there’s a reasonable chance he’ll take advantage in the pace & space of the NBA.

As a note, keep in mind that euros usually tend to need an “adjustment period” to the NBA 3-point line.

* Like many euros, how many people did know useful players like Theis (25 when signed) or Kleber (26) or Fontecchio (27) outside the professionals or superfans circles?

https://nypost.com/2024/07/03/sports/knicks-kevin-mccullar-jr-very-similar-to-josh-hart-norm-roberts/

I like the “trade the protected pick back to the crappy team” move that seems to be gaining traction.

I can see this being effective with Detroit bc they seem to really think they can be good.

But even Washington would be like “lol that pick’s never gonna convert.”

Not only do having OG and Bridges upgrade the defense they also massively upgrade the offense. They both shoot over 37% from 3 in their careers and have career TS% of 58 and 60%. Next season the Knicks won’t need to grab as many offensive rebs cause they’ll actually be making shots more frequently.

The Knicks legitimately could be a Top 5 offense and defense next season which makes them a legit championship contender.

That detroit trade is stupid. Don’t the Knicks want to win like with this team right now.

Burks going from the Knicks to the Heat is pretty funny considering how bad he is defensively

Farewell, Aqua Bulva. It’s been fun.

Wait a minute! We lost Alec Burks. Now we are doomed. It’s time to blow it up.

It was very fun when he hit those 3s to briefly save our season

Seems like this could be another unforced error. We didn’t need Alec the player, but we really need a useful salary to trade.

Hubert, Burks had to want to go where we wanted to send him, for the contract the other team was willing to pay. It’s a lot harder to do that kind of thing with the new CBA.

Whatever.

A lot of dumb things we’ve done lately (like this and not using both our first round picks) make sense if the Bridges trade can’t be changed to avoid the hard cap.

Of course it also makes sense if we have a deal for Jalen Duren or Walker Kessler lined up along with a Kyle Lowry TPMLE signing.

TBD

They killed Fritz!

“Farewell, Aqua Bulva.”

Did you really have to bring my uncle’s after-shave into it?

Hubert, Burks had to want to go where we wanted to send him, for the contract the other team was willing to pay. It’s a lot harder to do that kind of thing with the new CBA.

If we signed him to a one year, $10mm deal we could have traded him wherever we wanted by January. To the other team he’d just be an expiring.

What did he get from the Heat, the vet min?

Now we have to find a center who can start on a title winning team and makes less than $7mm, or we have to trade a key player.

Maybe Burks likes playing basketball…

Also, our depth, which was a major problem last year, is getting hammered.

We currently have 8 experienced basketball players, Jericho Sims, and 4 spots reserved for rookie salaries.

I guess that won’t be a problem since Thibs is so good at keeping guys healthy.

We’ll probably use that MLE on somebody reasonably playable and I think there’s a decent chance Kolek gives us some useful minutes. That gets you to 10 players… Sims is 11th man and then maybe you get a vet min ring chaser who can still play a little. That’s 12. Then a couple of rookies and shuttle squad guys… that’s a pretty normal amount of depth.

I thought we all wanted some young guys for the end of the bench?

We currently have 8 experienced basketball players, Jericho Sims, and 4 spots reserved for rookie salaries.

I was arguing with some people about why we shouldn’t have the entire bench filled with rookies a month ago? This is why. They could all suck, and not just this year.

I’m guessing Hukporti gets a 2-way and we get a vet min to take his roster spot… assuming we have cap room. Maybe McCullar too.

@IanBegley
Duke/Creighton alum Alex O’Connell will with Knicks at Summer League, per sources. Knicks have O’Connell’s G League rights & he impressed them during a recent free agent minicamp. Update to this tweet: O’Connell has an E-10 deal w/NYK, per sources. He played in Serie A last year

Creighton alum I know described him as ‘white jr smith’

I’m pretty sure one of Dadiet, Kolek, McCullar, or Hukporti is winning ROY, it’s just a matter of which one.

Which home run derby contestant is gonna outsmart the competition and simply have Carlos Rodon pitch to them regularly?

We currently have 8 experienced basketball players, Jericho Sims, and 4 spots reserved for rookie salaries.

The more I read about our four draft picks, the more I’m comfortable if they take the four remaining spots on the roster and we just stay where we are, hard capped or not.

Also, I looked at the Lithuania game highlights and, TBH, was not thrilled with Rokas. The little bit I saw suggested he hasn’t improved that much since we drafted him and I’m not sure he is good enough to be a role player in the NBA.

I moved past Rojas like two years ago. Hopefully Kolek pans out!

Swear every time in the last two-three weeks I’ve come home and put the Yankees on they’re already losing

Aaron Judge, do’.

Is it good to have 5 Ks through 3 innings if you’ve also already given up 2 runs? What a weird game. He’ll probably get the QS.

But even Washington would be like “lol that pick’s never gonna convert.”

Washington is strongly incentivized to want their pick back to avoid Stepien complications even if they don’t think they’ll ever have to turn it over.

Our depth seems a lot stronger to me this year? Am I missing something? Just seems unambiguously stronger at every position, with the major exception of center of course, but again, easiest position to fill.

Knicks bench has way more depth than the Yankees lineup.

it is still hot outside…

Our depth seems a lot stronger to me this year? Am I missing something? Just seems unambiguously stronger at every position, with the major exception of center of course, but again, easiest position to fill.

How do you figure this? Where did we get significantly deeper that compensates for becoming a donut team?

Seems to me we are marginally deeper at PG if Kolek can contribute as a rookie which is a huge longshot as an unathletic PG. Bridges < Bojan/Burks but 1 player < 2 players so that's less depth.

We likely can’t afford to bring Precious back so shallower at the 4, and of course our C rotation is thinner than the hair on top of Thibs’ head now.

Possibly gettable centers, ranked according to me:

1) Day’ron Sharpe
2) Isaiah Jackson
3) Paul Reed
4) Daniel Theis
5) Omer Yurtseven

Mitch (iHart)
Julius (??)
RJ (jHart)
Grimes (DDV)
JB (IQ)

Bench who would plausibly play was Deuce, Sims, Fournier. 9 rotation guys and 3 I hope this works guys.

at this point we have

Mitch (???)
Randle (OG)
OG (jHart)
Bridges (DDV)
JB (Deuce)

The likely rotation is better talent wise, but we could use at least another big we can trust and the rest of the bench is more unsettled. Kolek and McCulloch are old rookies, but that’s not really a guarantee they’re able to contribute.

Our depth seems a lot stronger to me this year? Am I missing something?

We can’t fill a 9-man rotation yet without Sims or a rookie.

We’d need all 4 of our rookies to be NBA-ready at this point for our roster to be deeper than last year.

Ess-dog – I applaud the effort. You had me for a brief moment too

I am so interested in finding out what a “white JR Smith” does in his free time. I remember seeing JR on the street and he looked like he had just left the club. It was 1030 in the morning.

I love Mitch but I have been troubled by his defense the last two years. He bulked up a ton and perhaps it hurt his mobility. He also had to play a lot with RJ and Randle and to some extent Brunson so it’s hard to blame him entirely.

He was my favorite player for a long time but if they found a good deal for him I would survive. It would have to be for a good center though because we’d have a gaping hole without him.

Last year:

1. Brunson
2. Deuce
3. Donte
4. Burks
5. OG
6. Hart
7. Randle
8. Bojan
9. Mitch
10. iHart
11. Precious

This year:

1. Brunson
2. Deuce
3. Mikal
4. Donte
5. OG
6. Hart
7. Randle
8. Mitch
9. ???
10. ???
11. ???

We need a backup center but if we get that, even if it is Precious, we can add a couple of cheap vets and then our 4 rookies gets us to 15. I think Sims is going out in whatever shenanigans we are pulling with Brooklyn to keep us not hard-capped at the first apron.

If we get a solid backup center I think our depth is fine. We would not only be nine deep but Deuce, Hart, and DDV can all play mayor minutes if needed. Add four rookies and two decent vets and we should be in good shape even if we have to go 11-12 deep occasionally.

Hopefully one or two of the rookies can give us some decent minutes but even if they can’t none of the scrubs outside of Sims and Taj got more than 60 minutes (Taj got 165) last year even with all the injuries.

I just scanned the available FA list on spotrac and there are still some depth pieces out there, with varying degrees of protection. None are ll that intriguing unless they decide to go the 1-year make good on the minimum route.
-Hayward
-Lowry
-Kennard
-Covington
-Cedi
-Theis
-Caleb
-Kira
-Seth
-Bev
-Zeller
-Reggie
-Nwora
-Payne
-DSJ
-Watanabe
-Lonnie
-Brissett
-Lamar
-Dinwiddie
-Metu
-Bismaxk
-Danilo
-Warren

Not sure whether these guys are actually available or worth pursuing, but they are apparently still out there…

Yuta Watanabe retired today so I think he’s out

My general impression before was that we have more depth, but I can see the point of the posts showing fewer rotation players. I think it depends on how you define depth. Even if we have eight instead of ten NBA reasonable players, the quality of the depth is better except at center. Before, our first three off the bench were Deuce, Bojan and Mitch. Now it’s Deuce, Donte and Hart. At center our bench is clearly worse, but the quality of the second string at other positions is better.

I read this article from the Athletic and concluded all our backup center options are bad.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5614451/2024/07/03/nba-free-agency-knicks-centers/

1) Day’ron Sharpe
2) Isaiah Jackson
3) Paul Reed
4) Daniel Theis
5) Omer Yurtseven

None of these guys are on Z-Man’s list of available players. That said, if Jackson is available, they should get him. He is already good and has theoretical upside in a Thibs system. (He’s better than Sharpe, no?)

1) Day’ron Sharpe
2) Isaiah Jackson
3) Paul Reed
4) Daniel Theis
5) Omer Yurtseven

None of these guys are on Z-Man’s list of available players. That said, if Jackson is available, they should get him. He is already good and has theoretical upside in a Thibs system. (He’s better than Sharpe, no?)

My list was of players that I thought were both available and desirable.

1) Day’ron Sharpe: signed for next year @ $4M, is a RFA next year. He would require a trade with the Nets, do you really think Leon wants to overpay again?
2) Isaiah Jackson: signed for next year @ $4.4M, then a RFA. He was Indiana’s primary backup to Turner, don’t see why that would change.
3) Paul Reed: he would have to be renounced, still TBD, and it’s not like Philly can either count on a healthy Embiid or have lots of cap maneuverability. Sure, if he is then he’d be fine as a placeholder. But for now, he’s unavailable.
4) Daniel Theis: This was an omission on my part, thanks for pointing that out. If he’s healthy and not diminished, sure, why not?
5) Omer Yurtseven: He’s a pretty scrubby scrub. Might as well just run Sims out there.

Kennard

Kennard is one of the best shooters in the game, so he’s useful for every team. He played a bunch of point guard for the depleted Griz, which really isn’t where he should be. He’s better than Alistair Booke, for whatever that’s worth.

I’m expecting that at the end of the day, it’s gonna be Precious, at least until players start getting waived/renounced, or until close to the trade deadline. Even if they have to use Sims and Hukporti to eat minutes against bigger bigs that Precious can’t handle, or in case of an injury to Mitch, I think they would rather tinker with small-ball lineups than make a costly trade for either an overpaid scrub or a washed up vet.

McBuckets should have been on my list as well…

Precious is a fine 9th man and a good fit as a PF-C combo. A guy like Covington is maybe a better immediate player, but he’s about to fall off a cliff, while Precious isn’t even 25 yet.

Having a 9-man rotation of plus-players all under 30 is no small feat. But I would still nab a journeyman center and vet min point guard after that, and then we’re good to go.

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