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57 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.07.14)”
GK, that is a good question. I am now trying to imagine the defense both ways. Obi is quick but doesn’t move side to side well. Barrett can probably drive by him. Barrett guarding Obi is dependent on how Indiana uses him. If they keep him in the corner shooting threes when open , I’m not sure what Barrett will do that will make much of a difference. On the other hand, if Indiana manages to get a lot of fast breaks, I don’t think RJ will keep up with Obi.
I think Obi is going to thrive in the open court with Haliburton and the Knicks are going to look dumb for giving away a lottery pick.
I think gk is correct
Listened to the full Begley appearance on The Lowe Post. Nothing hugely enlightening if you’ve been following the team as closely as we do, but here are the bullet points:
* Knicks have checked in on various stars and faux-stars like Harden, Dame, and KAT, but have also drawn a line in the sand about what they would give up. In case of Harden and Dame, they’re not even sure they’re a good fit with Brunson, who’s younger and (for now) cheaper.
* Thinks Leon’s white whale is Embiid, especially if the Harden return isn’t great.
* Ian surprised Knicks didn’t do more to address shooting this offseason, other than swapping Obi for DiVincenzo in the rotation.
* Zach and Ian both think the Knicks aren’t just going to give away Fournier, because they think the new CBA is going to make expiring contracts valuable again, and they can try to get something real for him.
* Both agree that the Knicks winning a playoff round has bought Leon the time to be patient. Whereas if we’d gotten knocked out quickly in the first again, people would start worrying that we’re just a regular season mirage, and the FO would have felt pressure to acquire a big name ASAP.
* Ian assumes Quickley will get extended, even if the plan is to trade him later, since they’d be able to get better value for him in the future based on what his next salary is than trying to find someone who makes roughly what IQ is getting on his rookie deal.
* Knicks talked a lot with Indiana about an Obi trade back at the deadline, but we wanted more draft compensation — and/or Duarte — and Indy wasn’t willing to budge. In hindsight, I wonder if they could have gotten more at that time, and if Allard’s infamous trade demands backfired.
I think that’s all the big stuff?
I agree that they might have gotten marginally more for Obi at the deadline, but would it have been disruptive to team chemistry at that time and would have created the backup 4 problem we have now. I also wonder if it’s fair to have expected that literally no one would want him for a better return than what we got…even if we needed to unload him in a pinch to snag a UFA with the MLE. Still, I love DDV and his contract and have no issue with viewing it as an Obi for DDV plus 2 lousy seconds swap.
When all is said and done I doubt that Obi ever becomes much more than he was with us…a 20 mpg energy guy off the bench.
Honestly, it feels an awful lot like the WHG situation…
Except we took WHG in the second round. The best time to move Obi would have been right after giving Randle his extension. This is another example of bad asset management.
embiid is a pipedream… unless morey gets fired… or even if he doesn’t…. there’s no way ownership would approve sending him to a divisional rival… i also imagine teams like okc would be further up the wincurve and willing to pay whatever they need for a rental as their picks collect dust… there’s really no way it could ever happen….
the more realistic option would probably be anthony davis…. altho that is really dependent if lebron is serious about playing with his son or some morbid projections of some serious injury… so that’s also a bit of a moonshot and speculative if we even want to deal with that…
it’s probably going to end up being mitchell … probably around the 2025 trade deadline…. some things can change but there’s not a lot of likely scenarios out there right now….
gkh, when Julius signed his extension, Obi had just completed his rookie year. He might have had more value then, but nowhere near a top-10 first rounder, so you would basically be admitting that Obi would never develop and that you totally botched the pitch. Teams rarely do that, especially if you don’t draft a replacement for him or include him in a trade for a star, which they later tried to do with Spida.
The way I see it is that the cardinal unforgivable sin was drafting him in the first place. Anything after that was just a matter of what shitty return we would get for him and when. The best argument for bad asset management was that we should have just kept him and not made the DDV deal, which is reasonable. It’s likely that we could have gotten more for him if we waited and risked the RFA route, and risked losing DDV, or just bit the bullet on Fournier to create the space. There are pros and cons to all of those decisions.
Did anyone read the Zach Braziller article in the NY Post about the Knicks and Anunoby?
No, but sounds like clickbait.
If there was anything going on Katz, Begley, or Macri would have it.
I get that Obi wanted more minutes, but I still think it was a dumb trade. Better to fire the coach and hire someone who can work Obi into the lineup more.
And I fully disagree with Z-man that he’s just an “energy bench guy.” In his third season, he upped his 3pt% from .308 (RJ territory) to .344 and his ft% from .758 to .809, despite being miscast in his role as kick-out shooter. His bread and butter out of college—the pick and roll—wasn’t even on the table in NY. And his defense, while not great, wasn’t worse than Randle’s or RJ’s, and they practically led the league in minutes. There was and probably still is a lot of hypocrisy in Thibs’ rotations.
Idk if there was a disconnect between Leon and Thibs when Obi was drafted or what, but yes, in retrospect, Obi wasn’t really a smart use of that pick. And I get it: the league is trending toward 3 and D fours, but I’m sure there is a way to put Obi’s skills to use in winning basketball games.
Not sure exactly what I am looking forward to this NBA season but Chet’s return is on the short list.
Ess-dog, I just can’t imagine Obi doing an NBA level pick and roll. He doesn’t set especially good picks and on the roll he would have attack a basket that is probably defended and that he couldn’t just run in and dunk at. He is not big enough and doesn’t have the post moves to play as a “power” power forward, so learning to shoot threes is a good thing for him. It might help him stick around in the NBA and not just as an energy bench guy.
It would be useful for the Knicks to still have him, but I think they traded him all or mostly to give him an opportunity in a better situation for him. They clearly didn’t trade him because they lived the picks they got back. The picks just aren’t good enough for that.
They traded him because of the cap. It wasn’t a favor to him – the Pacers were one of the few teams that could take him without giving salary back.
Athletic piece on Team Canada extended roster. Would be a fun one to have:
Team Canada training camp roster for
@FIBAWC
:
Jamal Murray
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
RJ Barrett
Dillon Brooks
Lu Dort
Nickeil Alexander-Walker
Kelly Olynyk
Dwight Powell
Zach Edey
Oshae Brissett
Cory Joseph
Kevin Pangos
Kassius Robertson
Phil Scrubb
Thomas Scrubb
They even have two Scrubbs sitting at the end of their bench.
Notable NBA players not on Team Canada’s roster are Andrew Wiggins, Bennedict Mathurin, Shaedon Sharpe and Andrew Nembhard.
Strange how Dillon Brooks makes me want to root against the whole team.
From a purely basketball perspective the Obi trade was obviously negative. Those 2nd rounders are highly unlikely to yield a player as good as Obi even if he doesn’t improve one iota, and in any event they’re years from conveying while we’re trying to win now.
The trade was partially tax related, but that doesn’t explain it entirely because we had other means of ducking the tax that probably wouldn’t have been terribly painful.
Leon Rose has (silently, through intermediaries in the press) made the case that his relationship building will yield good results for the Knicks. The 50,000 foot view of his plan is that on-court competency + relationship building has a better chance of yielding a contender than a traditional rebuild. The Obi trade was an example of said relationship building.
Hard to give the larger idea anything but a TBD so far. Seemed to be something to it with Brunson, but can’t take any victory laps until we’re a bona fide contender.
Being that Obi could not be in a better situation than he is right now, I’ll guess we’ll find out. But what does it say when it’s already been publicized that IND is in currently scouring the market for a starting PF? To me it suggests that they also see him as an energy guy off the bench. And they drafted another PF and they like Jalen Smith, so if they trade for Siakam he’s gonna have to earn even his bench minutes.
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Obi’s next contract is not with the Pacers and is in the low-mid 7 figures.
TNFH what were the other means of ducking the tax that didn’t involve either moving Fournier or not signing DDV?
Obi is a dinosaur. PnR PFs who can’t defend, dont rebound, and are mediocre shooters aren’t really a thing.
There’s maybe two Cs in the league good enough at opening the paint for the PnR with their shooting & cover for him defensively—Turner & Lopez—that allows Obi to be the roll man.
Milwaukee doesn’t exactly need him.
He could be great in Indy but it’s literally the only team he’ll get that chance. He’s talented enough but he kinda seems like a worse John Collins.
Either way Knicks need to worry about making themselves better and not their opponents. If we go against them in the playoffs and Obi kills us, that’s likely the only time it’d hurt.
———
I don’t think there was a single reason for the Obi trade.
I think he was generally liked by the organization and especially the fans, but he wasn’t happy with his minutes here and not versatile enough to play other positions effectively enough to open minutes at SF or C.
At his current skill level they didn’t think he was worth extending with a longer more expensive contract.
They wanted to sign DDV.
If they moved him they could make him happier, open some space for DDV, not have to worry about tax, and add a couple 2nd rounders. I think they viewed it as DDV and two 2nd rounders for Obi, greater flexibility, and lower salary than just adding DDV.
Indy’s “defense” is gonna be interesting with Hali, Hield, Mathurin & Obi out there
Myles is gonna earn his $20M this year
Since when do the Knicks have to worry about going a little bit into the tax?
All the beat writers have reported that Leon and/or Dolan are willing to go into the tax, but not until they’re at real contender status. Which we clearly aren’t yet.
Going into the tax is not just extra money Dolan has to pay, it seems like it also has several penalties that makes roster building more difficult. So it looks like teams are going to be much more weary of being in the tax cause it will now hamper their abilities to adding players if I’m understanding it correctly.
I think it’s more about being hard capped before roster moves are in flux and less about the actual tax.
There’s nothing I can think of that hurts you by going into the tax except for a smaller MLE which we don’t need to worry about this year
But the repeater tax is incredibly burdensome and there’s no reason to incur that for a guy sitting on the bench
GSW saved ~$100M by trading away Wiseman and his $9M & $12M salaries thanks to the repeater tax
And it’s worse under the new CBA
Don’t care how rich you are, that’s a shit ton of money
I’m giving the benefit of the doubt to our resident capologist in terms of determining whether dumping Obi’s salary when they did instead of either waiting for a better return or staying under the $172M hard cap was the right move.
I should note that we’re hard capped at the 1st apron because we used the MLE.
The apron is ~$7M over the lux tax so keeping Obi would put us right up against it and severely limit what we can do.
For instance a trade moving Obi & RJ’s combined $38M can normally take back 125% of that number, or up to to ~$47M.
With Obi on board we could pretty much only take back ~$42M without including more in the deal. When we sign a 15th man it’ll be ~$40M.
It may be less as some have said the hard cap includes unlikely bonuses whereas spotrac doesn’t include those figures when summing salary. I think it’s ~$5.2 more in those.
Note: a lot of max guys are sitting around $45M.
Honestly I’m not sure we have a resident capologist.
The CBA is brand new and there’s a transitory period over the next 2 years so it’s difficult to keep straight the current rules vs the final rules.
It’s a pain in the ass…
To be fair, that’s basically Randle, too, except he gets 3-4 more defensive boards a game by ignoring his man on D. In fact, Randle and Obi shot exactly the same from three this year—and Randle was in the 3pt contest!
Look, if the Knicks are committed to Randle, this was clearly the best move: it gets Obi a new home in return for a super solid 3&D guy who your best player is tight with… even though it creates a bit of a logjam. And clearly Obi wasn’t a great fit in Thibs’ iso-heavy offense.
But there’s definitely an argument to be made that Obi is still growing and could end up a better overall player than Julius (who, mind you, keeps crapping the bed in the playoffs).
I’m still going to root for Julius and Co., but I think we can all agree this was not great asset management all around, except when Leon resigned Randle for a team-friendly contract, I guess.
You’re seriously underestimating how good a player Randle is if you think there’s a chance Obi develops into a better overall player than Randle.
BTW Obi is already 25 yo, many here want to write off RJ at 23 yo but Obi is somehow gonna develop into an All-NBA player?
Comparing Randle to Obi is like comparing De’Aaron Fox to Deuce. There is zero chance that Obi is ever in the all-NBA conversation. Julius has done it twice, and he’s still 28 years old (3 plus years older than Obi).
Obi was a fucking bust. We squandered a #8 pick for a guy who wasn’t worth more than two shitty seconds on the tail end of his rookie deal. To think he was even in the same conversation as a player with Julius Randle is ludicrous.
“To be fair, that’s basically Randle, too, except he gets 3-4 more defensive boards a game by ignoring his man on D.”.
This is absurd.
I like Obi and think in the right situation (e.g. Pacers) he’s going to be very productive, but he is not on the same plane as Randle by a long shot.
i like this take on the obi trade to indy – not as a favor – but as a roster necessity…
that sounds about a million times more believable 🙂
still wish him well – but, seems like he may be on the nba roster fringes sooner than later…
until now, i didn’t think that could be the most probable path for his career…
maybe obi will dominate in 3 on 3 competitions
Dont want to pile on, as Obi does a lot of great things, but he just doesn’t get his own shot like Randle.
Randle was assisted on only 28% of his 2fgs and 75% of his 3fgs.
Obi is at 86% & 96%.
Randle has gone away from the play finisher he once was.
Obi’s efficiency and points per 36 will skyrocket next year. He’ll be a 5-10% discounted Amare Stoudemire in the PnR. But he just can’t do what Randle does off the dribble to get his own shot.
I haven’t watched much Summer League but I think Charlie Brown Jr has at the very least earned an invitation to training camp.
BBA, I only saw one game but it was enough for me to agree with you. But I could see him getting signed by another team too
If Charlie Brown Jr is bad on defense: “Why is everybody always pick and rolling on me?”
hi z-man, is it breathtakingly beautiful?
okay, that’s kind of high bar to set…an enjoyable location so far?
you know what, you just arrived, probably still unpacking…is the water warm?
Yeah, Charlie Brown JR is already 26 yo and has played in 41 NBA games for 4 different teams so he’s not some young prospect but he certainly looks like he belongs on an NBA roster.
geo, as I put down my johnnie walker black to write this, I will say that Sandals Dunn’s River is spectacularly beautiful and the weather has been sublime…a bit too windy for the hobie cats and snorkeling, but the wind actually keeps things cool on the beach. The Sandals brand is kinda like a landlocked cruise ship…it’s about pools, beach, excursions, non-stop eating, drinking, swimming, socializing, etc. But the missus and me are in prime get away from it all mode and have been enjoying mostly every minute….the Jamaican staff is awesome…yeah mon! The best part so far was on the first night when I got up and sang at the piano bar, to my wife’s delight and that of some other fine ladies. Take that for data!
I just realized the Knicks gave a summer league game tonight. They are leading Boston 50-31! Martin doesn’t seems to be playing. I don’t know why. Brown already has 17 points and Keels 12.
awwwwwww 🙂
that sounds so nice…
does the air smell differently, more oxygeny…
it’s been forever since I’ve been snorkeling…
Maybe they’ve seen enough from Jaylen. No reason to keep running him out there.
We still have an open roster spot and can create more
But I’m assuming DaQuan, Martin, Roby and Keels are safe-ish
So one of baby Obi, Peanuts and Duane Washington needs to go
Hopefully we can get Brown on an Exhibit-10 and get more time to see how it all shakes out
Why isn’t Martin playing? My standards for consuming Knicks basketball are…quite low, but you gotta give me something,
Going into the LT this year wouldn’t technically come with roster restrictions, but like EB said it would’ve started the repeater clock in a season we could’ve easily avoided it. I would imagine Leon and Dolan have discussed this, so hopefully Leon extracted a promise to have no qualms about the LT if/when we’re contending in exchange for not paying it this year.
Re: Obi, I’ve made my specific predictions already. I tepidly think he can be a starter for a team that gets it shot creation from other positions. I hope he gets the minutes to settle the debate one way or the other.
Charlie Brown Jr. has been our best SL player. Unfortunately, as a guy who will never be more than SG depth, he picked the wrong team.
We don’t have a Cam Whitmore panic thread up? I heard he had 8 steals.
Lol it’s going to be a long offseason…
Charlie Brown had a nice summer league that will hopefully lead to a nice contract in Europe.
I actually watched some of this summer league game. Charlie Brown was good, but actually so was Keels. He passed a lot but still ended up with twenty points on ten shots. It was a promising showing.
Did we make it into the SL playoffs?
We lost our first 2 games and are eliminated from the playoffs. Keels had a nice game, but if I were him, I’d be looking for a new home also.
Keels is still 19 it’s fine to keep him in the G League for a while.
When it comes to Obi and Hali the Knicks already look dumb. Hali being the key to unlocking Obi is not having cake and not eating it too.