(Friday, December 22, 2017 10:17:08 PM)
DETROIT — After scoring 28 points more than he did a night earlier, Kristaps Porzingis said he knows he’s on the right track. Bouncing back from a his NBA-worst 0-for-11, one-point outing in which he got benched for Michael Beasley in a win over the Celtics on Thursday, Porzingis racked up 19 of his 29…
(Friday, December 22, 2017 4:43:52 PM)
DETROIT — Kristaps Porzingis made buckets this time — aplenty. But it wasn’t enough, because the Knicks always find ways to lose away from the Garden. Friday night, they blew a four-point lead in the final 1:14 to ruin Porzingis’ bounce-back, 29-point night in a 104-101 loss to the Pistons at Little Caesars Arena. The…
(Friday, December 22, 2017 2:51:00 PM)
DETROIT — Outspoken Pistons coach/president Stan Van Gundy needled the NBA for presenting the Knicks a home-dominant schedule to start this season, hinting it was not coincidental. Van Gundy has made prior comments the NBA seems to want to have marquee franchises like the Knicks and Lakers fare well. This time, Van Gundy used the…
(Friday, December 22, 2017 6:18:21 AM)
Phil Jackson never had full support from his general manager Steve Mills — one factor in his Knicks demise — according to one of Jackson’s longtime biographers/confidants. Jackson is back in Montana after a long trip to Europe and spoke this week with Roland Lazenby, who authored the Jackson biography, “Mindgames,’’ and most recently Kobe…
[SNY Knicks] Knicks can’t hold on to late lead, lose another road game, 104-101 (Friday, December 22, 2017 9:30:53 PM)
The Knicks couldn’t hang on to their fourth-quarter lead as the Pistons won a back-and-forth game, 104-101, in Detroit.
[SNY Knicks] Tonight’s game: Knicks at Pistons, 7 p.m. (Friday, December 22, 2017 6:00:26 PM)
The Knicks travel to Detroit to face the Pistons at 7 p.m.
[NYTimes] Pistons 104, Knicks 101: Knicks Fall After Taking a Late Lead in Detroit (Saturday, December 23, 2017 5:06:57 AM)
The Knicks, who trailed for most of the game, held a 4-point lead with 1 minute 48 seconds to play. Then the Pistons regained control.
[NYTimes] Jojo Is the Artist of Choice Among N.B.A. Stars (Friday, December 22, 2017 10:00:28 AM)
Joseph Anavim, a Long Island native, has made pop-art paintings for Carmelo Anthony, Kristaps Porzingis and many others.
[NYDN] Michael Beasley explains why he is ‘unguardable’ of late (Friday, December 22, 2017 7:50:27 PM)
It is a left-handed compliment to Michael Beasley to suggest that his scoring touch is so proficient.
[NYDN] Knicks’ road troubles continue with 104-101 loss to Pistons (Friday, December 22, 2017 7:49:50 PM)
The Knicks at least will be home for the holidays.
(Friday, December 22, 2017 11:19:23 PM)
The Knicks nearly did it.
(Friday, December 22, 2017 9:27:32 PM)
No, this is not the career path Michael Beasley imagined when the Miami Heat made him the No. 2 overall draft pick in 2008.
70 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.12.23)”
Kristaps really isn’t a max level player and that makes me sad. He may very well become one, but we’re gonna be betting on future production, rather than actual production with him. He’s always banged up, is an anemic, Bargs level rebounder, and his productivity is mainly predicated on his defense (cool) and iso shooting, which is no bueno. He has a lot to improve on to be worth the 25-30% of the cap he’s gonna take up.
I guess that’s just the position of most any team with a young star that isn’t AD KAT etc., though.
The Post is completely wrong about this being a continuation of the Knicks road woes. We did lose, but this was the sort of game we should have against good teams on the road, competitive and with a good chance to win. In that situation, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose,and overall your record would be ok. Except for the game at Cleveland, most of our previous road results were that we got blown out and stayed blown out on the road. I can’t remember another close game like this.
Silly, I’m not sure what your definition of a max player is, but being in the top ten in scoring in the league and playing good impactful defense, seems to qualify to me. Of course, KP could improve, but he’s very good already.
@3
Sorry, I mean more that Kristaps is likely not going to outperform his contract value unless major improvements are made. In fact, he may underperform relative to the astronomical amount he’s gonna get paid, unless, of course, he either learns how to rebound, pass, or actually dive to the rim consistently.
Part of this involves having a PG who can run the pnr, and I get that the ISO stuff is KP feeling out his limits as a number one option, but it’s disconcerting just how much of a chucker he is currently while not bringing much else to the table offensively. Do we really wanna give 30% of our cap to a guy posting a .147 WS/48 and a 0.0 BPM?
I like Ron Baker but that was a dumb substitution and even a dumber play.
KP has some b-ball IQ issues that are disconcerting.
KP will continue to develop. He’s just starting to figure out what being the #1 option is like. As the young guys keep getting more confidence they’ll come along more. We weren’t expecting to be at this point right now.
Let’s just call Frank Zeus since he’s obviously been coronated a god here. 🙂
Silky,
I tend to agree with you. KP has amazing potential on both ends of the floor, but I am constantly screaming at the TV because his shot selection is horrid. I saw part of an ESPN interview where he was joking about fans telling him how to play and he said “90% of the fans know my job better than I do”. The problem is a lot of fans DO know his job better then he does. He took a bunch of long fade away 2s last night. He has more shooting talent than all the other young big men in the league but his efficiency is far the lowest. I feel like tweeting the TS% of each of the young big men to him every day until it sinks in.
Sir Robin didn’t get the sarcasm of my Wilt-Russell comment on the last thread.
TS% of top young big men
Anthony Davis 64.5%
KAT 62.1%
Nikola Jokic 61%
Joel Embiid 58.2%
Myles Turner 57%
Porzingis 55.6%
I’m not sure why we’ve got a 7’3″ player who always seems to be shooting mostly contested mid-range jumpers. Maybe it’s on Hornacek to devise plays that free him up for easier looks, but I’m tired of those rushed shots from 16-18 feet.
12-28 is not gonna cut it, we already had Melo for that kind of production.
Silky, fair enough. Only thing is when I watch the Knicks play many times it looks like the plan is to get him an ISO situation. I don’t know how to get him better if that’s what he’s actually supposed to do. That said, he’s not good yet at responding to double teams. He ought to be able to get better at that.
It’s beyond ridiculous to have a 7’3″ big man with 3 point range shooting long fade away and off balance 2s all night long. We don’t need a 7’3″ Melo scoring 25 a night using 25 possessions.
We should call him Eris because he wields the golden apple of discord 🙂
Why did we have Jack trying to guard Ish Smith down the stretch?
He’s a matchup problem for all of our guards. That’s another reason to have Burke on the roster.
We don’t have a small quick guard.
Would it be crazy to say that if the 2017 draft were held today, Kuzma would be #1? The guy is just killing it (.609 TS %, 41% from 3), I guess he has a reputation as a bad defender, but really, who would you take over him? Tatum, maybe, but that’s really it.
Fuck the Lakers )-:
Porzingis at the max right now would quite frankly be shitty value. Not quite Wiggins/Mega Max Melo-level awful because he does provide a lot on defense, but his career TS% is mediocre and unacceptable for his size and talent.
The eye-test says it’s very much a shot selection problem and it looks like the numbers confirm that. Compare his shot selection to that of Anthony Davis, he of the .645 TS%:
FGA% from 0-3 (this one is really all you need to know):
KP-16%
AD-39%
FGA% from 3-10:
KP-17%
AD-20%
FGA% from 10-16:
KP-28%
AD-14%
FGA% from 16<3:
KP-14%
AD-15%
FGA% from 3P:
KP-25%
AD-11%
There are a few caveats such as AD's superior point guards and finishing ability, but there is no reason a 7'3" human being should be taking 15% of his shots from right under the basket while taking upwards of 42% from "long two" territory. He won't convert the 0-3 shots at as a high a rate as AD, but he can also make up some efficiency from 3PT territory.
Not all jump-shots-that-aren't-threes are awful shots and they have a time and place in Porzingis' repertoire. The problem is we see him jack them up in Melo-like fashion multiple times a game. Hornecek is a smart guy, he's spoken at length about shot selection in interviews before. He needs to fix this before it becomes an unfixable habit.
wasn’t Kuzma’s pick part of the trade w/ the nets?
Big men are usually good young of they’re going to be good, but Kristaps has more of a skill dependent skillset, so I’m hoping he’ll develop longer than the average big. That said, I think the concerns about his efficiency/shot selection are real. He needs to take more shots at the rim.
The NBA loves the kids, and Kuzma played 3 years of college, I think, so that may have partially pushed him down the draft board a bit, too.
I don’t get all the angst in the media about last night’s game. The team played a lot better last night than they generally have on the road. Yes, another loss, and the end game breakdown was frustrating to see, but that’s b/c the team does not have a good PG to handle such situations. Jack has been a pleasant surprise, but he’s a band-aid, and Frank is very young.
Bringing Ron in suddenly was definitely weird, but maybe H wanted another ball handler in there. The back to back Lee heroball sets were very weird, but the comments by the players after the game seem to suggest that the plays called were botched by them (Lee?) on the court. The first Lee one was definitely him rushing the play. Then on the second one he basically iso-Meloed the entire rest of the clock away. Those are both on him.
Not running any of those plays through Jack is revealing. I’d rather Frank be in there so that if you do botch late, at least it is with a talented kid learning rather than some old vet (Lee) trying to do more than he’s capable of.
@17 Good info. What makes matters worse is that a lot of his 2 pointers are fade away and off balance shots.
I don’t see shot selection as a particularly difficult thing to learn. Every player should have a good idea of the kinds of shots that are definitely good for them and others that are definitely bad for them. Then there are some in a grey area. Whether you should take a grey area shot is dependent on the amount of time left on the clock and the possible alternatives via pass.
Everyone is going to be forced into that grey area sometimes where it’s a marginal decision. But what you can’t do is take them when there is plenty of time on the clock or because you used up clock putting yourself into that position to begin with. KP does the latter all the time. He tries to create something that is not there and then forces up trash. If it was once or maybe twice a game you could live with it. But he makes 4-5 terrible shot selection decisions a night. Sometimes I have to shut off the TV I get so pissed off.
I swear, if the internet were around back in 1985 you guys would be complaining about having to give a 23-year old rookie with a .084 WS/48 named Patrick Ewing max dollars.
I know Nerlens Noel is out right now, but would anybody do a KOQ for Noel and a 2nd? I see him as a young Noah on defense. And he’s young, so I think he would make a great addition.
Thoughts?
For me, it’s not that I don’t recognize how young he is or that he will probably get better. It’s that he’s not all he’s cracked up to be now and it’s very frustrating to watch Melo II. He’s the most skilled offensive big man of the group in terms of shooting and he has the worst efficiency.
i dont think the mavs would throw in a 2nd for KOQ
there’s no evidence KP is a better shooter than Towns. it would be nice to see him used more creatively, with less iso. but it’s also clear that it isn’t enough to say 7-3 so rim. gym videos or no gym videos, kp is is still radically weaker than all the other guys in that list. many of his paint credits are mere cameos on the way the hardwood, or flapping around like one of those car lot air puppets. when you have bad hands and are the weakest player by far in the paint, 7-3 is not enough. Kareem did not have the relative strength disadvantage KP does, at least against most opponents. KP got boxed out to 18 feet by James harden.
I’m not saying they’re using him optimally. But I think his possible improvements right now are limited; we should stop treating him he’s Durant and use him more like a taller Otto porter. Whether he can become a true monster down the line I think will depend on how his strength develops and to a lesser extent how good a pg he plays with. But there is no gameplan currently available that would
make KP anywhere near the paint force of a KAT or an AD. but I would still max him without blinking.
The thing that bothers me with Porzingis is that if he started at Center for the Rockets in place of Capela, I’m 100% sure he would have a .620 ts% at least. D’Antoni would make the long 2s go away and he would be finishing tons of lobs inside.
The fact that this team doesn’t have a single play designed for Porzingis to roll at the basket with some space is disgraceful. The fact that he forces the issue and goes for those stupid jumpers is also disgraceful.
It’s on him, and it’s on the coaching staff for putting him on the Melo position. It’s also on the Knicks guards to some extent, but less than the other factors.
That’s not to say he’s shit and should be waived, he’s obviously talented and has a lot of promise. The max contract will come any way, so I do hope either him or the coaching staff figures their stuff out.
The Knicks are dead last on the NBA in threes attempted, while being 17th in 3s made percentage. That’s enough reason to doubt Hornacek as a coach and his offensive system.
I think KP’s strength issues are limiting him in the post right now. He will get bigger/stronger. Until then, he really shouldn’t go iso unless he can pull the defending center out to the 3 pt line. That’s why it’s nice to be able to play him at center at the end of games. In that sense, Kanter is kind of a perfect compliment because you can take him out late for defensive purposes, but still let him do his thing over 30-plus minutes. As a pf, KP really needs to work the pick and roll/pop, bc he’s not taking a lot of pfs off the dribble without getting stripped. The current starters really miss Tim’s driving ability (or at least the threat of it) since he’s really the only one that can really do that effectively.
@16, I am with you 100% – Fuck the Lakers all day everyday…
Luckiest franchise ever in sports history
Have to admit, Kuzma looks like a player. He’s having a hell of a rookie year so far.
When I say Kristaps should be taking shots near the rim more I’m not saying he should be posting up and dream shaking people. I’m saying he should getting to the rim off p-n-r or cutting or fast breaks. Some of that could be related to our sub-optimal point guard situation, but we also do tend to give the ball to Kristaps on mid-range isos more than we should.
Jordan Bell Jayson Tatum John Collins Lonzo and OG are all players id still take over Kuzma in the redraft. The dude can play on offense, though.
I totally agree, at 21 it’s clear Porzingis will never be worth the max and we should trade him for a couple of seconds, if we can get them.
That’s an odd example, because people bitched about Ewing early in his career a LOT.
Call me crazy and I hate his father’s guts, but I would have taken Lonzo first and still would. There’s a lot of other guys I like on this draft, but Lonzo still has the most transcendent superstar potential to me out of all of then.
Sometimes rookies adjust quicker to the league and reach their ceilings faster, but I would still rather swing for the fences with the 1st overall with the biggest potential star.
Call me crazy, but I think Jordan Bell will be the best player — in terms of long-term contract value — in this draft. Kuzma, Ball and Tatum are all future max or near-max players (Kuzma is going to have to earn it, since he was drafted so low, which matters in future negotiations), while Jordan Bell will get one of those Tristan Thompson-type extensions (maybe $40M over 4) that will be a huge win for the Warriors as they enter the decline phase of their stars’ careers, where they’re falling in value but salaries are through the roof.
Porzingis is going to get the designated player max. I just hope they don’t give him a NTC, because as it stands, it’s looking like a total coin flip that he’ll live up to that contract. There’s enough coaching hubris in the league to move him for some draft picks if he doesn’t pan out. He certainly hasn’t earned it yet.
If Bell develops well and is ready to be a full time starter in 19-20 the Warriors will be in such a great place. Draymond will have one year left in his deal and might be declining and Bell would slide perfectly in his place.
Thanks Gar Forman and John Paxson!
The point being that maybe we should calm if the greatest Knick ever to play started slower than KP has.
So in 1985 we’d be talking about win shares in a blog on our smartphones?
Ewing was a sure thing superstar out of the gate, so that comment is silly on multiple levels.
To be worthy of a max contract you only have to be a top 30 player, so KP deserves to get it. I’m very concerned about his anemia though, as that’s a big wild card. Has there ever been a great player with a long career who had that condition? Is it not a big deal and am I worried for no reason?
@8..Z man. Sorry, sometimes I am tone deaf but I think someone else mentioned Wilt as well. Either way, the comparison to some of the all time greats is a little premature. But regarding Frank, let the Kid live his life, even the youthful, error laden stage where he is all potential.
I agree, we can’t simply say his shot distribution should look exactly like AD’s. However, his shots at the rim this year are a career low for Porzingis himself. Last year he took around 20% from 0-3 and made them at a 70% rate. If he combined that with his improved 3PT shooting from this year we’re probably looking at a 58% TS or so based on that adjustment alone. There is simply no excuse for an enormous human being to be taking 1.5 of every 10 shots near a rim that he doesn’t even have to jump to reach.
I’m still for giving him the max/DPE because our best chance of becoming a contender is still Porzingis putting it all together. The guy is just tantalizing as hell.
@38. 2for18. Boomer edison actually recommended an overnight feeder bag. It worked for his son who had CF and was underweight and anemic. And there is NO REASON KP is not wearing knee braces as a preventative measure. His joints,jyst seem loose to me.
KP at his current production at the max is not an incredible handicap. It won’t stop the Knicks eventually bringing talent around him if they don’t make many terrible moves to go with it. Much better than paying a guy like Wiggins no doubt.
It’s bad to pay that to a player who’s not really worth the max, but he should have enough pull to help convince good free agents to come and is still a plus player. Im 100% feeling better with the idea of overpaying Porzingis than I was with overpaying Melo, and that’s assuming he doesn’t get better at all.
Now, the hard part is actually making the correct moves and ensuring he won’t have to be the number 1 option forever, because that is not looking like a great idea right now. I think a team can win the title is Porzingis is their second best player, just as I believe if prime Ewing was the 2nd best player in the Knicks they would have won too.
I seem to recall KP crashing the offensive boards a lot more his first year (and maybe even last year), compared to this, and that might partially contribute to his low shot totals at 3 feet and under. If so, why?
Kanter’s presence (maybe KP is told to hang back for D while Kanter works…but Kanter does seem to get back in good shape almost all the time), avoid all the extra physical contact, or just an increased preference to be “the man” and do all the iso stuff? Some combination?
@62. Bruno. Agreed the key is who they surround KP with. Going back to Patrick, the problem was not that he should haved been the 2nd best player on the team but that he never had any other stars around him. Never played with an all star if I recall correctly.. I recall Dick McGuire, the NYKs top scout, begging the NYKs to draft Kevin Johnson. If they had I think we’d have at least 1 or 2 titles. With those guys at 1 and 5, you can then have Oak, Starks, Mase etc. But expecting Starks to be the 2nd option was doomed from the jump. Love Starks but he wsas a 6th man.
I disagree here, Ewing just needed another star to play with and he could definitely have won a title as the 1st option. His best teammates were Starks, Oakley and Mason, all tough motherf—ers but not talented enough to take some of the scoring load from Patrick.
@44, 45
You’re both right, just another very good star would probably have been enough. I meant more in the way that he didn’t have to carry the whole weight alone, which was really the issue.
The issue I have, and why I’ve been pro tanking for so long, is that the window is not going to be very large. When KP signs his max it will be win now mode only and the clock starts ticking, and one or two really bad moves can be very harmful overall.
The arguments about KP’s shot selection are more about how Hornacek is using him than about KP himself. With Kanter killing the offensive boards, they want him taking shots over guys 6″ shorter than him and letting Enes sweep the boards. Missed KP jumpers almost look like passes/assists for Kanter putbacks.
KP is just coming into his own. He’s all-star material right now. Yes, he needs to be surrounded by talent. How many players do the Knicks need to surround him with?
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21847919/how-carmelo-anthony-was-freezing-russell-westbrook-paul-george-thunder-offense-iso-melo-nba
Lol
Um, what part of my hypothetical about the internet existing back then didn’t you understand?
criticism is in the new york water supply…even for those of us whom are from new york are forever tainted…
seems the individual names are somewhat irrelevant…
we added 3 new starters and 3 key bench players to our rotations this year – heck, it feels like we do that every year…
last night was frustrating, not having a ball handling/playmaking player to put on at the end of games is frustrating, watching kp figure out his role is frustrating…
all very expected though…
heard they’re getting ready to put up a ten foot statue to frank outside the garden…a foot for each championship he’ll bring us in the next decade 🙂
If we get in the playoffs as an 8 seed Frank will lead us to a 4 game sweep.
@49 um win shares did not exist in 1985.
@48
But gravity effect doe
how ’bout that army team…what a huge difference a good coaching staff can make…10 wins for the black knights…
shoot, if pro teams ran the option ahmad bradshaw would be a 1st round pick…
He’s all star material who creates opportunities for offensive rebounds we just need to surround him with more talent.
I swear I’ve read this argument before about some other guy we used to have but I forget his name.
@23. Totes I’d do KOQ for Noel straight up. Not a passer in the mold of Noah, but a good, mobile defender and rim protector and timelines match up better.
@45. D mar. Agree 100%. Love Starks but after he missed the last shot in game 6 in 1994, he decided to shoot the NYKs out of game 7 as well. Up 3-2, they lost the series.. Ewing was no different than most big men in that they need an entry pass, which never came at the end of that series. Patrick played with 1 all star (Starks who made the team once).
Franks has lots of defensive potential. I like some things I see on the offensive end…the nice stroke, the court vision, the unselfishness. But the comparisons to all-time greats are pretty comical at this point.
Were any of Ewing’s teammates better than any of Jordan’s teammates? Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Horace Grant, BJ?
In case nobody noticed, Trey Lyles and Mario Hezonja are starting to play pretty well.
@59 Hell no, hell no, mebbe, no, yes.
Oakley and Mason were really good.
Would Golden State do it – Frank for Steph Curry and two first rounders (UNprotected)?
No
One man’s brick is another man’s Kobe Assist
I don’t want Melo 2.0 either, but you have to admit a 7’3” Melo without the sulking and plus defense is an excellent basketball player to have. His shot selection will improve as his decision making in a superstar role gets better. We definitely need to put him in more P&Rs, though. We can just pay Amar’e Stoudemire to teach him how to slip screens if it’s a strength issue.
Oak and Mason were pretty good. Neuther was all star level with the NYKs.
Both were all-star level players, just didn’t get the nod because defense is undervalued and there were lots of good forwards at that time. They weren’t the most popular guys either. Mason in particular was one of the most underrated players of that era. I always thought it was a big mistake to trade him for LJ. After being traded, he went on to average over 3000 minutes per year for 5 years, and was an all-star with Miami at age 34.
@27
100% agree.
Even without further development, D’Antoni and the Rockets would eliminate most of the long 2s and off balance fadeaway 2s. You should only be shooting shots like that late in the clock. That doesn’t mean he should never shoot a mid range shot. There are times he’s squared up, comfortable, and can easily shoot over a shorter player from 10-12 feet. He’s going to make enough of those to take them because the alternative will often be worse. But I’d rather anyone on the team take a a decent shot over KP taking an off balance long fadeaway 2. They would easily get his TS% to 60%. He’s a terrific shooter. He just takes way more bad shots than a lot of guys.
I disagree.
KP’s shot selection is a lot worse than Towns’s. I’m not talking about the fact that Towns is stronger and can get some shots inside that perhaps KP can’t. I’m saying that Towns does not shoot nearly as many trash off balance and fade away 2s or try to force things up against a double team etc.. KP also takes some 3s when defended and from far past the 3 point line. Towns doesn’t do that. That’s why if you compare their shooting statistics they may seem similar when in fact if KP would simply eliminate the trash his shooting stats would be much better. He might score less than Towns because he can’t get some of that stuff inside, but I’d way rather he score 20 per 36 with a TS% of 60% than what he’s doing now.