Knicks Morning News (2024.11.30)

And it really was the worst win of the season (kudos to Pepper) !! But a win is a win, right? On to the next!

I suppose going 3-2 on a long road trip that included PHX, DEN, and DAL is something most of us would have signed up for going into the season. Yet the vibes feel like we went 1-4.

Brief soliloquy on Mikal. I’m trying to think of a more inexplicable NBA player in my lifetime. There have been positive ones — Linsanity, for example. The Joker writ large. But I can’t think of a player who came in with more positivity (from me at least) and a positive history and has just shat the bed.

Macri makes a good point I was going to make yesterday but thought I’d give it a day to marinate — he’s in his own head. His body language has been atrocious. When he screws up, even just misses a shot, you can tell he’s down on himself — hangs his head on the way upcourt, maybe even muttering to himself. A professional athlete needs confidence. He seems to have none right now.

I sure hope he figures it out soon, as it’s hard to watch, as well as making it hard to win. Thibs can keep starting him I suppose, but Deuce should be eating into his minutes until then.

Next up is the Pelicans without Zion. Ingram and Jones game time decisions.

At least we’ve had plenty of good fortune to start the season. It’s probably masking the extent of the trouble, though.

I do agree with the sentiment that Thibs is coaching very poorly but I think there’s a lot of steps before “fire him” available. Maybe start with a team meeting and let the players have some input.

Josh Hart didn’t seem to be joking around when talking about Bridges yesterday. There’s no more “lol he’s fine y’all crazy” bravado. They know something has to change.

But I can’t think of a player who came in with more positivity (from me at least) and a positive history and has just shat the bed.

Eddy Curry?

There was not a whole lot of positivity for Curry. There was some wishcasting with him, but even at the time, people seemed puzzled that Isiah would have traded so much for a guy who was widely viewed as an underachiever, and one with a potential heart problem.

We have a very accommodating schedule in December too:

– Injury depleted Pelicans 2x
– Offensively challenged Magic 2x
– Injury depleted Raptors 2x
– God awful Wizards 2x

Plus the Hornets again, the Pistons, KAT’s homecoming in MIN, and the Spurs on Xmas.

There’s a few tough games in there (the Magic are no pushover even without Banchero and the Wolves should be hyped) but this is the time to experiment with Bridges and get the rookies some minutes.

And I will keep saying that I refuse to believe this is what Bridges is going to be for us in the end. The track record is too long and too good. But it’s so damn hard to watch him right now.

There was not a whole lot of positivity for Curry. There was some wishcasting with him, but even at the time, people seemed puzzled that Isiah would have traded so much for a guy who was widely viewed as an underachiever, and one with a potential heart problem.

Yeah, you’re right. But what we hoped he could be and what happened in reality must be in Mikal’s territory. Or the other way around.

IST update: Hawks clinched Group C by beating the Cavs, they own the tiebreaker over the Celts. I believe that guarantees that if we lose to ORL we are out, as BOS is 3-1 and ahead of us in point differential. So it’s either BOS, MIL, or DET for the wild card, depending on the score of the MIL-DET game on 12/3.

We have a very accommodating schedule in December too

No win is guaranteed, like we witnessed against the God awful AND injury depleted Hornets! 😛

The only degree to which I care about the IST is that if we advance multiple stages, it suggests we have started to get our act together. And even then, playing in the final game means we’re less rested than some other teams.

I just want the team to play better, more consistently. I know to a degree everything about sports is made up, but the IST feels especially made up.

And I will keep saying that I refuse to believe this is what Bridges is going to be for us in the end. The track record is too long and too good. But it’s so damn hard to watch him right now.

Yeah, i agree. Somehow i’m hoping Mikal can be one of those players that when playoffs come he’ll be at his best. And tbf, that’s what really matters, to perform at his best in the playoffs.

I thought the idea of Precious going on the road trip was that he was expected to play at some point. And he is listed as out for tomorrow’s game. Haven’t heard anything about a setback.

One thing about Mikal’s terrible performance last night was that it masked an equally terrible performance by OG.

When thinking about guys who came in with high expectations, underperformed in the regular season but turned it up in the playoffs, the name that comes to mind is X-Man.

There’s some reasonable Bridges comps in other sports. We’ve seen this a lot on the Yankees, especially with pitchers: Carl Pavano, Javier Vazquez, Sonny Gray, to name a few. Great track records, bad fits.

Hey, this is the return of the 2 hyphens Z-man ? 😀

lol didn’t even notice!

If we beat the Magic by less than 37 pts the Celtics are out, and our side of the bracket is Orlando, Atlanta, and the winner of Detroit/Milwaukee.

That’s correct, I was only considering possibilities to make the wild card if we lost. Orlando has a league-best +60 point differential.

It would be interesting if we won and then faced them in the tournament, we would wind up playing them like 4 times in the next month.

..the single hyphen Z-man is a link to this site…

Ok lost the extra hyphen. If only losing extra weight was that easy…

I do agree with the sentiment that Thibs is coaching very poorly but I think there’s a lot of steps before “fire him” available.

About two years worth of steps. The quickest way to get fired is to tell your boss, Hey Jim… I just signed Thibs to a 40M extension… I think we should fire him 19 games into the season!

In all fairness to Thibs, he is coaching a team whose first two bigs off the bench are a pair of 58th draft choices. He also has a proven plus player in his prime who is playing incredibly badly. They are 11-8 having had two trips west and having played five more road games than home games. They are incorporating two new starters (one they received two days into camp).

No one is happy, but things could be much worse. Philly, Denver, Bucks, Minny say hello….

All correct, Bob. Nothing short of a woeful losing streak would put Thibs on the hot seat this year. Now a sub-50 win season followed by a playoff exit prior to the second round might make it a possibility prior to next season, but it seems like a lock that he will be here until at least then, and likely beyond.

One thing about Mikal’s terrible performance last night was that it masked an equally terrible performance by OG.

At least when OG has an off night shooting, he still plays defense with good energy.

While everyone seems to be worrying about Bridges’ shot, scoring, BPM etc… imo the only real issue is his defense. If he was defending at a high level, we’d have no significant problem to address. We get enough offense from Towns, Brunson and OG with Hart pitching in. We could reduce Bridges’ usage back down to his early Suns level days (which is the direction I wanted from day 1) and we’d be fine on both sides. The problem is his DEFENSE. With Towns and Brunson already weak links, you can’t have a 3rd weak link on the court. But so far that’s what Bridges is. Personally, I think his shot will eventually come around, but I consider that MASSIVELY less significant than whether he’s just washed defensively or lacking the energy to play so many minutes hard on both sides.

To Raven’s point about Mikal’s mental woes being a catalyst for his dismal play, Monica McNutt, prior to the Nugget’s game reported that Jalen Brunson told her that Mikal’s problem was that ” he was too much in his head” and that it was up to his teammates to help him out of that. It would seem to be that Mikal concentrating on playing stout defense would be an easier fix than his jump shot and his reticence to take the ball to the hoop.

I like the Knicks winning the IST, but I will concede it might be preferable to not have to play the extra games against good teams.

But I still want them to win it. It’s always cool when the Knicks get some nice positive attention, like winning this fake ass cup.

The best way to address Mikal’s woes is to cut back on his role. It might hurt at first, but cutting him down to 28 mpg or so will send the message that it’s not okay to continue playing at this level. Thibs has already taken step 1, which is cutting his 4th Q minutes. Deuce is simply the better player right now and deserves to be out there over Mikal in crunch time, and if this keeps up, Deuce, Cam, and soon Precious should begin to eat into Mikal’s minutes unless he plays better.

I’m kinda hoping we don’t win the NBA Cup (except that it would mean we were winning games) The idea of hoisting a banner at MSG to celebrate the “fake ass cup” as Brian put it, would be kind of bittersweet, and mostly bitter to me.

For teams that have actually won titles in recent years, it would be an afterthought, for us, a stark reminder of the 51 year championship drought.

“..the single hyphen Z-man is a link to this site…”

Thanks BE, fixed that.

“I like the Knicks winning the IST, but I will concede it might be preferable to not have to play the extra games against good teams.”

tbh, what the Knicks need is to play as many games as possible against good teams in order for the players and Thibs to sort things out.

The good things about winning the cup: a) it would mean we are playing well, and b) the positive national publicity. However, I don’t like the idea of giving Thibs more reasons to burn out the starters.

Also, if we beat Orlando, the remaining teams in the EC would be ATL, ORL w/o Banchero, and one of MIL or DET. Honestly, we might face tougher teams if we get eliminated!

There’s some reasonable Bridges comps in other sports. We’ve seen this a lot on the Yankees, especially with pitchers: Carl Pavano, Javier Vazquez, Sonny Gray, to name a few. Great track records, bad fits.

Sonny Gray maybe, but Pavano and Vazquez are poor examples.

Pavano for his career was one game over .500 (108-107) and was 9-8 for the Yankees over four seasons. He didn’t have trouble pitching in NY, he had trouble staying healthy in NY. His first 10 starts in NY were excellent. He was 4-2 with a 3.69 ERA. He injured his shoulder in June of 2005 causing him to miss the entire 2006 season. In 4 years for the Yankees he pitched a whole 145 innings due to injury.

Vasquez is another example. Known for his melt down in the 2004 post season, it was perfectly predictable, having little to do with his “ability to pitch in NY”. He was 165-160 for his career and 24-20 in his two stints in NY

In 2004 he was 10-5 pre All Star break for NY and made the all star team with a 3.56 ERA. In the second half he was 4-5 with a 6.92 ERA It was highly predictable he was going to get shelled in the playoffs not because he couldn’t pitch in NY, but because he was running on fumes his last 14 starts, yet Torre kept running him out there because he didn’t have any alternatives.

The good things about winning the cup: a) it would mean we are playing well, and b) the positive national publicity. However, I don’t like the idea of giving Thibs more reasons to burn out the starters.

The only thing the “Cup” is useful for is real money for the end of the bench players. It is lunch money for KAT and the fellas, but real money to Dadiet, Hukporti, etc.

Who gives a poop about positive publicity. Of course regular season games and playing well are fine.

I’m rooting for the end of the bench guys to get some money.

Thibs gonna Thibs in an exhibition game.

Not disagreeing, just pointing out that winning the Cup would mean that we beat Orlando and then won two additional games that count. If we are either not in the knockout round or lose before the Cup finals, that would guarantee at least one additional loss on the regular season record. So if we do make it in, the best possible outcome would be for Thibs to play the starters only 10 minutes in the championship game and let the bench earn that extra money. But of course, that wouldn’t happen, would it?

One other thing…if we go in at 4-0, I think we’re guaranteed a home game since ATL is 3-1. Last year we had to play MIL on the road and then BOS on the road in the consolation game. That really sucked.

So if we do make it in, the best possible outcome would be for Thibs to play the starters only 10 minutes in the championship game and let the bench earn that extra money. But of course, that wouldn’t happen, would it?

Thibs only has one gear. I wonder if he flips over the board playing Monopoly with his kids?

“Thibs only has one gear. I wonder if he flips over the board playing Monopoly with his kids?”

Thibs’ one gear did not allow for trivial things like domestic partnerships and kids to come between him and basketball.

Thibs benches his kids to play with seasoned Monopoly players

Thibs’ one gear did not allow for trivial things like domestic partnerships and kids to come between him and basketball.

I did not know that, but it is unsurprising when you think about it.

I did not know that, but it is unsurprising when you think about it.

It’s a famous (or infamous?) story about him. He broke off an engagement only a couple of months before the wedding because he realized it wouldn’t be fair to his fiancee, given how much he felt he needed to focus on basketball.

” So if we do make it in, the best possible outcome would be for Thibs to play the starters only 10 minutes in the championship game and let the bench earn that extra money. ”

I know I am on a very sparsely populated Emirates Cup island (on some days it is just Adam and me), but if we get to the championship game the best possible outcome is to win the damn thing. It’s not like we don’t have room for it in our trophy cabinet. And if Thibs manages to hold onto his job past this season, we can then criticise him for playing every game like it is an Emirates Cup final.

Re: Cup

In soccer, where Silver and his team got the idea, most teams rest key players during cup qualifiers until the get to knock out stage. Silver solved that by making the games count as regular season wins and losses. This was briliant. The court colors need to be revisited though.

European great legendary teams and champions are measurened by how many trophies they won in a giver year. Meaning, if a teams wins both NBA Cup, have teh best regular season record and wil the NBA Chamionship, they would be a viewed as as an all-time great team that tore up the whole league and won everything they competed on. If a team achieves thsi feat in back to back seasons, they would become legendary because it’s much harder to do than just win back to back traditional NBA championships.

The next step to this is to increase roster size to 18 and fix the salary cap rules by providing teams with 2-3 exempt mid level exception contracts that do not count towards the salary cap. Not by just providing salary bonuses.

Re: first 20 games and chemistry struggles.

On Monday morning, – we will all wake up to a 12 : 8 record, which is on pace to a 54 win season.

On Monday morning, – we will all wake up to a 12 : 8 record, which is on pace to a 54 win season.

1. No it’s not, 54 wins would be a .658 win rate. 12-8 is .600, which puts us on pace for 49 wins, worse than last year.

This is while playing one of the easiest schedules in the leagues and being significantly healthier.

2. It’s pretty bold to assume we will beat NOP given that we’ve been blown out in multiple recent games against depleted or terrible teams. We barely eked out a win against CHO sans LaMelo, and our level of play has been trending steadily down as OG/Towns/Hart have regressed to their mean while Bridges continues to age like the guy who drank from the false Holy Grail in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

To be fair, playing a game on the road against a JV team at the crack of dawn on a weekday morning was always hard for me too.

At some point the “gelling” excuse isn’t gonna fly anymore. I’m not saying we’re at that point yet, just that we’re going to reach that point pretty soon.

We’ve had some good fortune in terms of injuries, and have squeezed a ton of minutes out of the starting 5 on this team. Sure, we’ve had the Mitch/Precious injuries to deal with, but the other key players have played heavy minutes. The top 5 are all averaging 33.8 MPG or more.

We’re 9th in SRS and don’t seem to be improving. The glass half full take would be that Thibs’ teams often close the season strong, so maybe there’s another level we haven’t seen yet. Overall though this team has a “good not great” feel to it.

This is a wildly inconsistent team so far.

It’s like an endless ‘Didn’t have that on my bingo card’ season. Who had OG going 6-26 (23%) and 0-12 from three the last two games? I mean, what is that? Thank goodness he plays kick-ass defense.

Hart’s been consistent, and great. Brunson seems to be rounding into consistently good form. Deuce has been consistently good.

I guess KAT has been fairly consistent on the offense and glass, so the cup is half full there. And Mikal’s been consistently bad, but he does find inventive new ways to be that way.

A win is a win is a win is a win…but gaaaaaaaatdamn! I really don’t like how we squeezed out a win over a depleted Hornets team that already wasn’t very good fully healthy. Anunoby with 2 bad games on offense after a career high game worries me. It’s almost like he’s spent- and that’s not a good sign for a guy with his injury history

We seem to not have a whole lot of fast-twitch athleticism. Seems like we will be vulnerable to 3pt variance losses to scrappy teams who have losing records but play hard for 48 minutes. We kinda caught a break yesterday when Brandon Miller going 2-11 from 3.

Precious should definitely help in that regard.

I’m kinda burnt out on the league rn tbh, even after a somewhat exciting ‘23-‘24 season. Between 3pt variance causing most wins, totally inconsistent refereeing that changes yearly, what seems like more injuries league-wide than ever, and a meaningless cup, I’m starting to recognize the sport less and less. I know some younger people might prefer some of these changes, but the game is just kind of boring me more than it has in a while. Maybe I need to check in with college ball, but I don’t think that’s the answer either.

It’s all about the defense. Everything else is a sideshow.

Mikal has to step it up on defense. If that’s not enough because of the lack of paint protection and weakness at PG, then they have to start experimenting with more minutes for Deuce and less for Bridges (especially to close games), Mitch and Towns, Towns and Precious and then ultimately with options where we trade Mitch and/or Precious, one of the young player etc.. for a defensive PF to put next to Towns.

Towns – TS% – .655
Brunson – TS% – .613
OG – TS% – .608
Hart – TS% – .690
Deuce – TS%- .592
Payne – TS% – .585
Bridges – TS% – .527

That is a offensive juggernaut even with Bridges leading in minutes and playing well below par. Either a tweak in minutes or recovery of form and the last thing we should be thinking about is the offense.

Failing to defend the three point line well, and not even making that a priority, seems to be a pretty dangerous Achilles’ heel. We seem to have the personnel and length to defend the line well, we just have other priorities. We’re 26th in opponent 3pt% and that ain’t gonna cut it.

Really we don’t defend well anywhere, but the lack of emphasis on defending the 3pt line is a big reason why I have soured on Thibs. I’m just not sold on him as a defensive coach in the modern game.

Change my mind, Thibs!

Between 3pt variance causing most wins,

IMO we are at the point where it’s making the game worse.

The plus of it is that you are almost never out of game. So even if you are down 20, there’s still hope. So you keep watching. But it’s adding luck to the game. I can’t see how that’s a good thing.

Let’s just pray that, if we lose, Dejounte Murray has *nothing* to do with that.

There is no doubt that the game is less compelling to b-ball purists, but the product seems more popular than ever so I don’t imagine things changing much.

But if you could, ess, what would you change? Make the court wider and move the 3pt line out? Or keep the dimensions and move the line out to, say 25 feet and eliminate the corner 3? Or my preferred tweak that I think could do the job without even being very noticable…just shrink the diameter of the rim enough to reduce average 3pt accuracy down to 30% or so. The current diameter is 18 inches, so try making it 17 inches and see how that works.

The plus of it is that you are almost never out of game. So even if you are down 20, there’s still hope. So you keep watching. But it’s adding luck to the game. I can’t see how that’s a good thing.

This only goes one way for us. Because we can’t get stops, we blow leads consistently but have minimal comeback ability.

Changing the size of the rim is a terrible idea. Every basketball hoop in the country is 18 inches and that’s what everyone has grown up shooting at. Everyone would hate this change, and it wouldn’t xhange the dominance of 3p shooting because twos would also get much harder to make.

Reasonable adjustments would be widen the court and extend the line to 25′ arc all around. It’s really the corner 3 that distorts the game by making otherwise mediocre shooters so threatening.

As to the luck piece, I don’t get it. Without the 3 point shot the game is jyst dominated by a different kind of luck: the genetic lottery if extreme height (while still being somewhat athletic). It wasn’t more fun when nearly every superstar was at the same position and guys like Moses Malone racked up MVPs. The luck factor may as well take place on tge game rather than at Shaq’s birth 25 years before the game is played.

“Changing the size of the rim is a terrible idea. Every basketball hoop in the country is 18 inches and that’s what everyone has grown up shooting at. Everyone would hate this change, and it wouldn’t xhange the dominance of 3p shooting because twos would also get much harder to make.”

My guess is that 3pt% would change more than 2pt% for a given decrease in diameter. As far as how folks felt about it, I tend to agree, but I would need more evidence beyond a particular poster with a sour personality claiming that everyone would hate it to be convinced. There might be a bunch of lousy 3pt shooters who love it!

Changing a basketball hoop is a small, one time investment. Think about how much folks spend on a baseball glove, a tennis racquet, a golf club….it’s small potatoes, certainly when compared to changing the dimensions of the court.

And I don’t get the point about height. Height is always going to be a benefit in the NBA. Why is Moses Malone winning an MVP different than Jokic, or Embiid, or Giannis winning it? It’s not like the average height of an NBA player has gone down since the 3pt bonanza.

The only thing that’s broken about the NBA is the reffing, and that can’t be fixed, npi.

A nonsensical fix that would actually work but no one would like would be to make 2’s worth 3 points and 3’s worth 4 points. It significantly narrows the gap between the two. Never gonna happen, so eliminating the corner 3 is probably the way to go.

At some point the “gelling” excuse isn’t gonna fly anymore.

Brunson, Hart, OG, and KAT have actually gelled quite well IMO. They just don’t have the right guy to complete their lineup.

reducing the rim diameter would have at least one weird side effect: it would disproportionately benefit shooters with a higher launch angle. mid range bank shots would also feel outsized pain given the standard deviation of their drop trajectories. the upside is that you could experiment with very small diameter differences and see if there’s a sweet spot. i think the big3 briefly considered dropping the diameter by half and inch.

here’s the stupidest fake idea that would actually be awesome: change nothing else but give -1 for 3pa (from pass half court) that don’t hit rim. this is rare enough that it doesn’t change the game a ton, but it’s not irrelevant. and the vibes are insane. oppoent airballs are already fun. wizards lead 0 to -1? lfg!

The problem with the rules is that guys can drive straight through someone’s chest and get a foul called. Gentle taps on the hands and arms as well. Not nearly enough offensive fouls called. Three point shooting is like FG kicking in the NFL. 60 yards is not uncommon anymore. The NBA is getting closer to 50%. Nothing broken there. Best players ever.

PS Mikal is off to a slow start but let’s chill with the doom and gloom. He will figure it out

My favorite idea that will never happen is fire all the NBA refs and replace them with FIBA refs.

There is no doubt that the game is less compelling to b-ball purists,

I’m not sure I agree with that. What is more pure than watching Steph Curry move around the floor with the ball like it is a body part and either fire it to a cutter or launch a 29footer and turn to defend the other way while the ball is mid flight, or the absolute majesty of Jokic’s overall game? What could be purer?

I much prefer that to Shaq dropping his shoulder and running over his opponent and never getting called for the offensive foul or Oakley and the Davis brothers pole-axing each other under the rim.

I think what people miss most in all of the major sports is stylistic diversity. Showtime Lakers vs Bad Boy Pistons. Dan Fouts and Air Coryell versus the 46 Defense. The Billyball Oakland A’s versus Harvey’s Wallbangers. That sort of thing. The clash of differing styles.

Now everybody just plays the West Coast offense in the NFL, shoots 50 3-pointers every game in the NBA, and maxes out Three True Outcomes in MLB. If you don’t, you’ll just get beat.

There is no doubt that the game is less compelling to b-ball purists, but the product seems more popular than ever so I don’t imagine things changing much.

Every number I’ve seen indicates the opposite–the NBA has somewhat quietly entered a viewership crisis, obscured by the fact that it was still able to gin up a massive bidding war for the most recent broadcast rights package.

Finals viewership is basically at an all-time low since it’s been tracked, and that’s despite the NBA somewhat dubiously introducing an “out-of-home” viewership metric in 2020.

I have no idea how much this has to do with the fact that every team plays the same way now, but regardless the NBA shouldn’t feel like it has much to lose by rocking the boat.

Personally, I definitely feel like I grew up watching much more stylistic diversity, such that I would turn on basically any NBA game involving a reasonably good team or two. Now…I can give or take all but the most compelling games.

All this to say, I’m for basically any experimentation meant to reintroduce some stylistic diversity. Ptmilo’s airball penalty? Sign me up. Allotting every team a fixed amount of 3PA, with every FGA after that’s been hit only counting for 2? Could be interesting.

I think the refs themselves are fine, it’s the subjectivity of the game that is the problem. A foul can be called on every play which makes the game impossible to credibly govern.

I think the American market is maxed out for the NBA, which is why they schedule games for the crack of dawn on a Friday morning. That’s primetime in Serbia, where an entire nation is tuning in to watch what they refer to, nationally, as “the Vasilije Micić game”.

But if you could, ess, what would you change?

Idk but I’d like to bring back the importance of post play and the midrange shot for a greater diversity of players. Idk what rule change gets you to that, though. It also seemed like fewer players got hurt before the “run n gun” offenses really took hold, but I don’t know if that’s true statistically.

How about: a swish on any midrange shot counts for 3

The fact that Anthony Edwards is on pace for a career low in dunks (by far) because he realized he can get the efficiency back by chucking 3s strikes me as a bearish aesthetic indicator

The fact that Anthony Edwards is on pace for a career low in dunks (by far) because he realized he can get the efficiency back by chucking 3s strikes me as a bearish aesthetic indicator

Can you blame him? If Jordan could have spent half his used possessions tossing up threes he’d probably have had LeBron’s longevity and the GOAT debate would be no debate at all.

The fact that Anthony Edwards is on pace for a career low in dunks (by far) because he realized he can get the efficiency back by chucking 3s strikes me as a bearish aesthetic indicator

have watched a ton of wolves and knew about the 3s but didn’t realize he only had 9 dunks. that’s one less than jake laravia and one more than mikal bridges.

old friend thjr just became the first player this season to pull off a 20+ minute tony snell, beating previous clubhouse leader and old friend cam reddish.

Speaking of weird stats, Moussa Diabate just had 8 offensive rebounds without a defensive rebound. The record is Popeye Jones with 12.

So the Hawks, who pummeled Cleveland the other night, also barely beat Charlotte, so maybe those “scrubs” ain’t half bad?

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