Knicks Morning News (2024.11.24)

I had visions of a Batman-Robin, OG-Mikal tandem wreaking havoc on wing defense while Brunson draws charges and Kat/Hart clean up the boards. Seems problematic when someone beats Brunson or rotations can’t pick up a cutter.

Offense is working ok. Bridges should work on getting himself open for 3s and getting to the rim. I really have no problem if the offense is clicking with Bridges production being down. Who cares. Question is can he turn it up when someone is out or we need a boost because other shots aren’t falling. As long as he is playing good team basketball and we are generally winning…maybe he is just unlucky and we get a cheaper extension…and he doesn’t care because he likes it here and we are winning. Glass half full. If we win it doesn’t matter if we overpaid since I struggle to see a better option. We don’t need more star power, there would be too many mouths to feed. He is versatile, stays healthy (knock wood) and can slot into a number of roles with injuries. He has star potential given a bigger role, but an ego that allows him to accept a smaller offensive role. That is worth a lot. We are still early into the adjustment period. I still like the trade.

Two reflections from last night. The first was how both Brunson and Hart drove to the cup early on because moxie — and to their credit, it works almost all the time — but this time they found themselves in a forest of seven-foot arms and torsos. And unfortunately the Plan B was to shoot and miss threes.

The second was how at the end of the game guys were like, “I’m not taking another three, I don’t care if I’m open” — especially KAT, but I saw others do it too. It was minor league amusing.

Not sure what lessons one can take from that game. Except that if there are three enormous shot blockers on the other team, you should probably hit your threes.

Favorite pointless stat of the game:
Kat -34, Sims +19.

Less chuckle-worthy, Denver crushed the Lakers by 25 last night. Which normally would cheer me up, except…

We went on a 17-0 run when Utah took both of their seven footers out. Maybe Jericho really was the key but I think the lack of Kessler was more relevant.

KAT — 6 contests in 38:45
Sims — 3 contests in 9:15

Kessler — 23 contests in 35:13

As much as I love blaming Mikal, I don’t know that he was the main problem last night.

Kessler had me drooling. He had a block on KAT that was so squeaky clean and majestic. I was surprised how easily KAT got past him on the perimeter and surprised how easily he smothered him. It almost felt like a trap of some sort.

I miss Mitch. Kessler looks like the new Mitch.

And to think Leon balked at two firsts for Kessler but gave away the store for Bridges. We could have just replaced Hartenstein with Walker and brought back the same team everyone loved.

If that is the case Hubert I would be mad too. I think the price was much higher though.

I think Kessler and Towns would work well together.

As much as I love blaming Mikal, I don’t know that he was the main problem last night.

This is what I was posting late last night （it was daytime for me). The biggest blame should fall on KAT. He couldn’t score well inside and wasn’t hitting his threes. Defensively, he didn’t stop anyone from scoring.

I was only able to watch some of the first half and the offense looked mostly like guys missing, but the defense was kinda terrifying

You aren’t beating any team that shoots 56% from three.

I only saw bits and pieces of the game, were the Markiten and Sexton 3’s contested at least? Either way you can’t give up 121 points to the Utah Jazz

Oh, and who the hell is Johnny Juzang?

Juzang had a good tourney run with UCLA a few years ago. I remember that.

I am starting to agree that the move was to trade for Kessler instead of Mikal and save some ammunition. However, Mikal’s versatility, Iron Man-ness, and potential to step in as a number two option is not something that a Kessler level player offers.

Marc Stein reported the price as two firsts but it’s entirely possible Deuce would have had to be the player to make salary work. Nothing was reported on the player.

This was all after the Bridges trade and before the KAT trade, though. The fork in the road is when Leon was informed that Hartenstein was a goner and with that information made the Bridges trade when Kessler was available for much less.

I don’t know how the rest of the offseason would have went if we had just replaced Hartenstein straight away instead of making the Bridges trade. I imagine we might not have KAT if Donte isn’t expendable and we have Kessler to play C.

I can’t say I was pining for Kessler at the time. I spent most of the summer asking people who watched him what they think, bc I’d never seen him play. Having seen him last night, though, I certainly know what I wish we’d chosen.

I mean, there was zero justification for the Bridges overpay. At least KAT, came at a fair price, but even so, I am at best lukewarm on his game. His defense at the 5 is verging on Enes Freedom-level bad. Love his passing and rebounding, but he gives away so much momentum by being such a sieve in the paint. I fear that he HAS to play the 4 or we are going nowhere.

There’s a long way to go, but I haven’t felt great about a single game this year. The losses to Houston, Chicago, Atlanta, and Utah are starting to look like a pattern. We seem slow, slow, slow.

Getting Deuce, Precious and Mitch back will help. How much? We’ll see. If Bridges doesn’t pick it up, we have problems.

I know some people think we need to give Mikal Bridges lots of time but I am ready to pivot today. It’s not too soon. When you make a mistake, the best course of action is to rectify it immediately.

And we definitely made a mistake. Brunson, Hart, and OG is our 1-2-3. We don’t need Mikal Bridges.

I don’t think we’d be selling low, either. In fact we may be selling high. We’ll never recoup the premium we paid for him, but if Dejounte Murray yielded a majestic bounty after two disappointing seasons, I feel certain Mikal will have maintained much of his trade value after two disappointing months.

Sign me up right now for a three-team trade where he goes to a team that can send the assets to Ainge to give us Kessler.* We’d need to take back between $18-$20M in salary so presumably we’d add a useful bench piece from someone in the process.

* If I’m overreacting to anything, it’s Kessler. Maybe he’s not as good as he looked last night. He doesn’t have to be the target, though. Just pivot from Bridges ASAP.

I don’t think giving up on bridges makes sense.

We know he can be a productive player. We need him to get back to doing what he did in Phoenix.

The price was too high though.

Per NBA.com numbers:

DRtg last night: 117.5
DRtg season: 115.6

ORtg last night: 103.9
ORtg season: 120.9

If Mikal is supposed to be a 2nd option, last night was the night to show it. KAT was dreadful while Brunson was good but not particularly efficient. Mikal finally had an opportunity to carry the offense.

IDK, I’m just going to pretend this was a “drinks hit you harder at altitude” hangover game.

The main problems with Bridges are that he’s not hitting 3s and he’s not defending at the level we hoped. What makes that a major problem is that we were hoping (or at least should have been hoping) that in a smaller role as the 3/3a option in NY, he’d score less, but be more efficient and have the energy to defend at a higher level. We didn’t need the Nets version. We needed the Suns version.

To get that efficiency up to where it needs to be he has to start hitting 3s. That’s probably doable. I’m not sure what to make of his defense anymore. Maybe he was just always overrated as a defender, but I recall him locking players up and being very impressed at times in his Suns days.

The “number” of picks we gave up overstates their value because despite the issues we are having they are likely to be late 1st round picks. It was an overpay, but not as bad as it looks.

Mitch was on the bench last night – that has to be good that he’s back travelling with the team, right?

If Mikal is supposed to be a 2nd option,

Once we got KAT he was definitely going to be 3 or 3a option with OG. The 2nd option idea was always pre KAT. It was an open question as to whether he’d be able to do it or whether we were going to have to make another move for a scorer. Then the KAT trade was made and he dropped in the pecking order.

At this point, it looks like OG has done more to expand his game than Bridges. His handle is still a weakness, but I think it’s a hair better than before and he’s hitting 3s consistently from more places. He should be the 3rd option right now and Bridges should be 4th unless matchups suggest otherwise

If Mikal is supposed to be a 2nd option, last night was the night to show it. KAT was dreadful while Brunson was good but not particularly efficient. Mikal finally had an opportunity to carry the offense.

I guess the opportunity for Mikal was there, but it would take recognition by the players that should try scoring some other way than Brunson/KAT pick and rolls. I was watching the latter part of the game and I didn’t see any new approach. I have some sympathy with the players here. They may not have practiced setting Bridges up as the main man. They may also have felt they were just missing shots and the shooting would come around.

I have liked Kessler since draft time, but thought the asking price was too high. Might have been wrong on that, but whatever. He was very good last night,

The larger point is that Leon thought Bridges was worth THAT asking price. If Mikal returns to his post-Durant trade form, I could see it being just a clear but justifiable overpay. But for this guy? Damn.

Here’s to hoping that he will snap out of whatever funk he is in. If not, he better spend the entire off-season in the gym, including in the weight room.

If Bridges doesn’t pick it up, we have problems.

Bridges has 15,500 minutes of good basketball and 600 minutes of bad…. I’m going with the over.

KAT’s offense is sublime (excepting yesterday) but his lack of rim protection is the biggest problem. Playing with Mitch/Precious will help that. His work at the 4 last season with Gobert was fine.

Yesterday was a weird game and it wasn’t just my eye test. Monica made some comments to the same effect as did Wally and Hahn. The guys looked like zombies out there except OG and Payne.

Thx @antipioneer. I didn’t notice Mitch on the bench, but, yeah, that has to be a good sign. (Right? ;-))

I don’t think Mitch is the solution to all our problems, but he just may be for the specific problem we had last night in the paint.

As for the other team hitting 50+% from three, dunno what to do. Tip our caps or complain. I suppose that depends on one’s temperament.

“…while Brunson was good but not particularly efficient.”

I thought Brunson had a shitty game (for him) on both ends. Just not a particularly heady game. But only OG, Hart (at times) and Cam played winning basketball last night. When you get flame-broiled by Johnny Juzang, that pretty much sums it up.

We need him to get back to doing what he did in Phoenix.

I can’t think of many role players who briefly excelled in a leading role and then went back to being a role player.

I don’t think he wants to be that guy any more. And even if he did, it’s possible he just can’t be without his youthful athleticism.

And if he gets better on offense it’s just going to diminish OG or Hart.

He should be the 3rd option right now and Bridges should be 4th unless matchups suggest otherwise

Josh Hart has so much energy and the ball always finds him. Bridges is 5th. Quentin Grimes could be doing his job.

With Bridges it pretty much has to be an athletic decline. When a player can’t guard anyone or get to the foul line at all, that’s the fair presumption. He hasn’t defended at a high level for at least a full season.

I think the iron man thing ruined him. He has multiple seasons more mileage on him than OG and I suspect he played through stuff he shouldn’t have in service of the games played streak, just like Hali did to stay eligible for All-NBA.

Paying a Ferrari price for a fully loaded Toyota Camry is bad enough. To then find out the Camry is a complete lemon that can’t even handle your daily commute is devastating.

I’m with Hubs. This isn’t gonna get any better. He just doesn’t have the ability anymore. He hasn’t been bad for 600 minutes, he’s been bad for than plus an entire season before it. We bid against ourselves to get him so obviously there is no recovering the price paid. We should move on in whatever way we can before his current production erases all accumulated goodwill from his resume and reputation.

They laid an egg. Get over it. We had the luxury of size last year. Now we don’t and we are paying the price- forget point of attack. In 2 months, we may have size again. For now, work out the kinks. If we can stay relatively healthy into May and June – we have a shot.

This isn’t gonna get any better. He just doesn’t have the ability anymore

So it is written, so it shall be…

Bridges has 15,500 minutes of good basketball and 600 minutes of bad…. I’m going with the over.

He wasn’t good last year.

Looking like he peaked at about 26.5 and is having a steep decline. It happens. They shouldn’t have thrown five 1s at the falling knife, that’s for damn sure, but what’s done is done.

He just doesn’t do anything well anymore; there isn’t even a glimmer to hope about, if we’re being honest. All manner of peripheral and underlying stats confirm and ratify a steep athletic decline. Even his old man skills are atrophying. He doesn’t 3. He doesn’t D.

As far as pivoting, let’s keep in mind he’s only under contract through next year. One of the selling points has to be “two postseasons, not just one,” unless he just becomes an expiring to dump. He does — luckily — still have a tradable contract.

It’s gonna be a very tough call for Leon; there’s no basis whatever for an extension at anything like his current salary. He’s a mid-level exception guy now, at most. They didn’t dodge a bullet when he turned down the two year max extension; they dodged a six-warhead nuclear ICBM.

Nah, Pags, this seems like the exact kind of stuff that was spouted about Randle in the summer of 2022. He’s been bad 2 out of 3 seasons and the season he was good was due to empty gyms and 3pt variance? Most detrimental player in NBA? Albatross contract? Use sweetener to dump him?

The notion that a player who just turned 28 and has zero injury history is in some sort of physical decline is utterly preposterous. Please stop.

Much more realistically, it’s possible that his play in BKN in 2022-23 as a first option was unsustainable. But the guy from PHX should not be hard for him to get back to if the shot starts falling, which it should. The defense should come around too. The thing is, the PHX guy was not worth anywhere near the 5 firsts. The BKN guy was at least close.

This team obviously isn’t terrible. It has enough talent to win some games. But it has the whiff of an Isiah Thomas team. I mean that in the sense that it was assembled like a fantasy team, with little regard for fit. There was DEFINITELY very little thought put into the fit between personnel and coach. Defensively it seems the idea was “well, Mikal is a good defender so that should make us better” but the team is certainly not using him in a way that plays to his strengths on defense. He’s a team defender who can disrupt plays by reading opposing offenses well, being in the right place at the right time, using his length and instincts. As a Knick he has rarely shown that kind of strength as a team defender.

This team isn’t going to be anywhere near as bad as an Isiah Thomas team, but so far it seems to have the same overall theme: a bunch of talented players who just don’t work well together. There is no synergy and the sum of the parts does not add up to a satisfying whole.

The Knicks are 28th in the league in BLK% and 27th in STL%. They’re 25th in eFG% allowed and 28th in TOV%. I just don’t know how you cobble together a decent defense with underlying numbers like that. Mitch Robinson ain’t Bill Russell and he can’t realistically fix all of that.

Maybe Thibs can get this to turn around. But right now I think this is a team that is likely to disappoint, and probably is going to need a major shakeup. It’s just not working.

“Looking like he peaked at about 26.5 and is having a steep decline. It happens.”

Nah, it really almost never happens without either significant injury or off-the-court issues.

The notion that a player who just turned 28 and has zero injury history is in some sort of physical decline is utterly preposterous. Please stop.

It happens all the time in all four major US sports. Close to recent home, Evan Fournier collapsed at 29.

If anything, the durability hurt him. He’s got more wear and tear on him than the typical 28-year-old.

He just doesn’t do anything well anymore; there isn’t even a glimmer to hope about, if we’re being honest. All manner of peripheral and underlying stats confirm and ratify a steep athletic decline.

he’s around his career averages in everything except 3pt shooting and drawing FTs

The guys looked like zombies out there except OG and Payne.

That’s what happens when you stay out late drinking with the altos from the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.

I’m not buying that Mikal has declined all that much physically. I mean maybe some, but not “he averages one free throw made every two games” levels of decline. Thibs doesn’t have any idea how to use him on either end. Mikal has never been a fast twitch athlete or an explosive leaper. He’s a feel player and he has no feel for this team. Can anybody honestly say that this team has looked cohesive and well coached at any point of the season?

The inexplicable change in his shooting form to something truly hideous isn’t helping either.

“Maybe Thibs can get this to turn around. But right now I think this is a team that is likely to disappoint, and probably is going to need a major shakeup. It’s just not working.”

There are two main reasons we are floundering. KAT’s D and Bridges playing like a scrub. I have way more faith in the latter improving than the former.

The shakeup might be as simple as moving KAT to the 4 next to a rim protecting 7+ footer, i.e. not Sims or Precious. Play him like Evan Mobley next to Jarrett Allen, or Markkanen next to Kessler, or, ahem, KAT nest to Gobert. You will never, ever have a decent defense with him at the 5.

He didn’t have much margin for error athletically, so a relatively smaller drop is going to leverage itself into a bigger reduction in ultimate output.

The people making the “Mikal fell completely off the table athletically” argument are E and Pags, who are really parody accounts more than anything else.

Maybe Thibs is forcing Mikal to be a hustlebunny against his will and that’s why he has been so bad.

“Can anybody honestly say that this team has looked cohesive and well coached at any point of the season?”

I don’t think one can say one way or the other. If he is gonna shoot 30% from 3 and not get to the line, nothing else matters all that much on O. If he is going to see guys get right to the rim and score every time they get by him going around a screen, nothing else matters that much on D.

The lack of rim protection is simply untenable, especially when Brunson is out there defending on the perimeter.

The inexplicable change in his shooting form to something truly hideous isn’t helping either.

My Podunk High chucking days and decent after-days tell me he’s doing that because he knows 23 feet 9 inches is either just outside of, or barely within, his effective shooting range — a personal data point every non-oafish-big knows implicitly.

That would be yet another indication of reduced athleticism.

Confirming this strongly would be that his form from 17 and 18 feet is pure and smooth. He’s doing that other … stuff … from 23-9 because he knows in his basketball cells he’s no longer at 18.

I knew today’s thread was going to be horrible, and it hasn’t disappointed…

This didn’t go in but Jokic is still unreal

https://x.com/billsimmons/status/1860734157225095349?s=46&t=0wqff4cNt-sCGcDs-uMExw

I think that loss was bad enough to deserve a thread like this….

The people making the “Mikal fell completely off the table athletically” argument are E and Pags, who are really parody accounts more than anything else.

Part of the court jester’s function historically is to be able to say politically incorrect truths that more serious personages could not.

This is gonna be like iHart’s departure: resisted by everyone as just another case of Pagliacci doomerism until the evidence becomes too clear to dismiss.

Sorry but there is not a coaching/fit/vibes explanation for a lockdown guy who used to be like 99th percentile in screen navigation becoming a traffic cone who dies on every screen. These are individual skills.

Whatever happens on offense is really beside the point, though he’s been awful there as well. The defensive decline was unmistakable in BKN but covered by the fig leaf of an increased offensive workload.

Some players absolutely do decline in their late 20s, and Bridges’ iron man streak doesn’t mean he’s never been hurt. The mileage and the marginal athletic starting point got us here.

What other explanation is there for the defense? I don’t want to be staring down the barrel of another lost decade, so someone, anyone, please offer an alternative explanation that fits the evidence instead of just arguing from incredulity in the face of a now ~3000 minute sample of below average defense.

Inherent generic athletic peak is around 27 years old. There’s some variance in individuals and modern training/nutrition has allowed some superduperstars to extend, and you can adjust for physical decline with increased intelligence and mental skills — but that’s still human reality.

That a guy is past his physical peak and in decline at 28 isn’t some outlier — it’s baseline, stock expectation.

I don’t think much of Thibs as an offensive coach, but Mikal gets the ball in position to get to the rack a fair number of times. Opportunity has nothing to do with it. (Of course, once teams realize he’s shooting under 20% from downtown ex-corners, they’ll start sagging off him and those opportunities will dry up. So we got that to look forward to.)

Time to pivot. Without question.

Moving to a different team, different role, different coach and specifically to a situation that does not emphasize his strengths seems like a much more likely explanation of Mikal’s poor play rather than “he fell completely off the cliff between ages 27 and 28.”

One of you guys makes nonsensical arguments about players doing poorly because they are unwittingly forced to become hustlebunnies and the other one takes the default position that everything that happens can be explained by the most negative possible outlook. The rest of the board treats your opinions about as seriously as they deserve to be treated. Which is to say not very much.

Do your shtick, it’s fine. The rest of us will have a reasonable conversation about all of this.

It appears all aspiring basketball players should give up AAU and start playing water polo

https://x.com/bballispoetry/status/1860540211320541608?s=46&t=0wqff4cNt-sCGcDs-uMExw

Moving to a different team, different role, different coach and specifically to a situation that does not emphasize his strengths

Fine, but then let’s hear the connection between all that and his plummeting peripheral data. Why would a new team and role cause his FTr to fall through the floor? Sure looks to me like he’s getting the ball in potentially rim-threatening positions. Is he not?

One of you guys makes nonsensical arguments about players doing poorly because they are unwittingly forced to become hustlebunnies

I never said this — stop. I let it go for awhile and let you have your fun, now you keep saying it as a way to discredit instead of just addressing substance.

The rest of us will have a reasonable conversation about all of this.

There’s nothing unreasonable about a data-based, experience-based, objective look at a basketball player and that’s all this is. The first person who advocated pivoting was someone other than I or Pags.

“That a guy is past his physical peak and in decline at 28 isn’t some outlier — it’s baseline, stock expectation.”

Sure it is.

Z-Man’s doing his shtick again!!

Oh, I was wrong about Josh Hart. I wasn’t wrong about what it showed about Leon’s improper treatment of first-round draft picks, and the hustlebunny thing Josh was kind of a part of (against his will) was very annoying — but absolutely wrong about the player.

This is why people don’t take you seriously.

“I never said this — stop. I let it go for awhile and let you have your fun, now you keep saying it as a way to discredit instead of just addressing substance.”

There is rarely substance involved. Case in point: you just referred to your “Podunk High chucking days and decent after-days” as some kind of substantive support for your outlandishly dumb statement.

Your grandiose hustlebunny takes on Hart polluted countless threads. No need to backtrack on them now, they are so you!

Troll on, clown! (no, not you Pags. Check that, you too.)

This is why people don’t take you seriously.

Nothing in there is even close to what you said I said. I literally never even mentioned Thibs.

Not sure why or how you get your jollies attributing fake lunacy posts and ideas to long-time posters, but you do you I guess. Seems kind of juvenile to me.

Can anybody honestly say that this team has looked cohesive and well coached at any point of the season?

For the first time since Thibs arrived, they don’t look well coached. The offense runs on talent, and the defense still sacrifices open 3s for rim protection, while there is no rim protection. The effort, a staple of Thibs coaching since forever, is not there either.

There’s nothing unreasonable about a data-based, experience-based, objective look at a basketball player and that’s all this is

His plummeting peripherals don’t exist. Stocks, rebuonds, dunks, whatever, they’re all in line with his career averages. The two things on offense he’s not doing this year is getting fouled and making 3 point shots from anywhere but the corner. Maybe it’s age, or maybe his shot is just fucked up.

My Podunk High chucking days and decent after-days tell me he’s doing that because he knows 23 feet 9 inches is either just outside of, or barely within, his effective shooting range — a personal data point every non-oafish-big knows implicitly.

So Bridges has early Lou Gehrig’s Disease? He doesn’t have the strength to hoist em up from 23 feet w/o changing his form?

Good to know…

The two things on offense he’s not doing this year is getting fouled and making 3 point shots from anywhere but the corner.

Those are underlying peripherals. Defense is less under the surface, and he isn’t playing that well either.

He’s not just “not making’ threes outside the corner; he’s making less than one in five.

Time to pivot. If you have an issue with that, bring it up with Hubie — he started it. All I’m doing is putting some extra data and theorizing on the reasons to pivot.

Quentin Grimes could be doing his job.

I hated that Grimes trade. He seems to have recovered his health and now he’s playing with more confidence again. He’s not the player Bridges is overall, but I sort of agree that Grimes is doing a lot of what we need from Bridges better than Bridges is right now.

The notion that Josh Hart was “kind of a part of” a “hustlebunny thing” and that it was parenthetically “against his will” is patently absurd. Sorry if I’m mischaracterizing that absurd statement as something that is even more absurd. I’m sure there is some perfectly logical explanation of that very serious basketball analysis.

I’m not buying that Mikal has declined all that much physically. I mean maybe some, but not “he averages one free throw made every two games” levels of decline. Thibs doesn’t have any idea how to use him on either end. Mikal has never been a fast twitch athlete or an explosive leaper. He’s a feel player and he has no feel for this team. Can anybody honestly say that this team has looked cohesive and well coached at any point of the season?

I also think Bridges will be fine (although maybe his defense was overrated). And more importantly I’m confident NBA GMs will agree and still value him highly. I just don’t think this is the right fit. OG and Hart are doing everything we expected him to do. He’s superfluous.

What are we going to do if Precious or Mitch come back and make our defense better? We’re going to bench Mikal Bridges.

The notion that Josh Hart was “kind of a part of” a “hustlebunny thing” and that it was parenthetically “against his will” is patently absurd.

My “hustlebunny thing.” The whole post was my updated impressions of Josh Hart.

Obvious to any fair-minded reader.

Best thing to do is just deal with the underlying substance of what people write rather than try to discredit it based on their “nuttiness” or “construction” or “shtick” or whatever else you think you’ve identified.

What are we going to do if Precious or Mitch come back and make our defense better? We’re going to bench Mikal Bridges.

I think if you gave Thibs carte blanche with no politics involved, he’d move Mikal to the bench for Sims. He’s smart enough not to try to get away with that one (probably), but once Precious comes back, it’s gonna happen if he has his way.

The thing is, the PHX guy was not worth anywhere near the 5 firsts. The BKN guy was at least close.

Setting aside what we paid, the probability that Mikal was going to be the peak BKN guy for us was close to 0%. He was pretty much the #1 option for them at that time. We have Brunson and KAT ahead of him and OG with enough of a skillset to get shots also. There are only so many possessions in a basketball game!!!

We have to get WAY past thinking Bridges is going to be a high usage scorer on this team. Not only is that not going to happen (unless someone gets hurt), it would be idiotic with Brunson, KAT and OG on the team.

He was always and forever going to be the Suns guy once we traded for KAT. He wasn’t going to be the #1 guy even with Brunson.

The issue is he’s not playing like the Suns guy who was more cautious in his shot selection, making 3s, focusing on efficiency and playing solid defense. He’s playing more like the BKN style on lower usage. That’s not using him correctly on THIS team with all it’s firepower. There will be nights or periods where there are injuries where we need the BKN version, but most nights we need efficiency and defense, not volume.

I’m looking at Miami and wondering if Bridges and Mitch for Adebayo makes sense a few months from now. If the Heat are ready to move on from Jimmy, I think it does. And I’m sure Spo would have Bridges humming in a week.

The effort, a staple of Thibs coaching since forever, is not there either.

This, I think, is a very important point. You just don’t get the sense that these guys are playing very hard, especially on the defensive end. It seems to me like OG and Hart are playing hard on defense but the other three starters are just kind of indifferent a lot of the time.

Some players just don’t respond to Thibs. He’s not particularly well liked by players around the league other than “his guys.” He can coax some good play out of the Reggie Bullocks of the world but I’m just getting more and more skeptical that he is the right coach for this particular group of players.

I think if you gave Thibs carte blanche with no politics involved, he’d move Mikal to the bench for Sims. He’s smart enough not to try to get away with that one (probably), but once Precious comes back, it’s gonna happen if he has his way.

I think they are going to look at KAT next to both Precious and Mitch just to see what those combos look like and to measure the net impact on both sides, but I think they are ultimately going to conclude they want KAT at the 5 paired with a taller/longer rim protecting/rebounding PF that can make 3s. He doesn’t have to be a “scorer”. He just has to be a rim protector, efficient and provide space.

I think we have way more talent on this team than last year’s team, but the pieces fit better last year. So we need some tweaking that addresses the defensive issues without giving up all the upsides of better spacing and talent with Towns at the 5.

I’m not sure who will be traded, but Towns, PF?, OG, Bridges and Brunson will start and Hart will go to the bench.

It’s theoretically possible that Mikal is playing through an injury that would sideline other guys.

No, I have no evidence for this and no it isn’t “serious basketball analysis” and doesn’t purport to be but if you’re of a mind to hold out hope, this is one possibility.

It’s also possible that it just isn’t working on a personal or personal/basketball level with Thibs or that he’s having relationship or other personal issues that are impacting how he’s doing at work. Ditto on the caveats.

Sheesh..maybe it’s a good thing I missed the game?

It’s also possible that we are at the 16 game mark, and are at a non-panicky 9-7 (see: Bucks, Sixers, Pacers) and that we are missing a trio of rotation players. We also just lost a road game where our two best shooters were a combined 0-12 from 3 at one point and guys like Collin Sexton and Johnny Juzang couldn’t miss (nor could Markkanen, but that is more expected.)

We threw a zillion dumb passes and missed a bunch of bunnies.

I get that there should be concerns (I sure have some, see my first post) but to pivot away from Bridges at this point is a truly bizarre hot take.

I mean, Tyrese Haliburton has a .506 TS% in his first 16 games and is shooting 29.4% from 3. Should Indiana pivot away from him because he’s in some kind of physical decline? Should Carlisle be fired because he doesn’t know how to coach those guys any more?

Really, guys, get a grip!

I’m just getting more and more skeptical that he is the right coach for this particular group of players.

Leon made three trades in a row (Bojan, Bridges, KAT) for guys who don’t fit the culture and style Thibs built here. He undermined his coach completely. Again.

I don’t think we should fire Thibs, I think Leon should go back to what worked. Get Thibs his rim protector and stop acquiring guys who can’t play D.

If we use Bridges to acquire a new Hartenstein, all will be fine again. No more Josh Hart as a PF. He replaces Bridges in the backcourt, Towns replaces Hart in the frontcourt. Bueno.

I’m looking at Miami and wondering if Bridges and Mitch for Adebayo makes sense a few months from now. If the Heat are ready to move on from Jimmy, I think it does. And I’m sure Spo would have Bridges humming in a week.

Pat is old, but he doesn’t have Biden level senility….

We’re definitely still in the “we need to get Mikal going” stage. He has had very few good games since arriving here.

It’s the trajectory of the team that’s concerning to me. It’s not improving. The very worst teams in the league are not automatic W’s for us. We can’t reliably get stops against dreadful offensive teams. Those are serious problems. We’re not THAT early in the season anymore. The coach needs to figure some shit out pronto.

On a recent KFS pod, Ben Ritholtz pointed out that nearly every team that had KAT at the 5 had a below average defense (although in 2021-22 they were 13th), and that he had little hope that even Thibs could build one around him (he didn’t in Minny.) Yet last year, Minny had the #1 defense in the NBA because they moved KAT full time to the 4 next to Gobert and played Naz Reid as the backup 5.

Thibs is trying to scheme himself around that issue, but it isn’t working. KAT is a combo stretch/power 4. I don’t know if Mitch is the right 5 to hang your hat on, and Sims definitely is not, but we need someone to fill that void in rim protection/paint patrolling.

Leon made three trades in a row (Bojan, Bridges, KAT) for guys who don’t fit the culture and style Thibs built here. He undermined his coach completely. Again.

I don’t think we should fire Thibs, I think Leon should go back to what worked. Get Thibs his rim protector and stop acquiring guys who can’t play D.

This seems backwards to me. If you have to have very specific personnel for a coach to be successful, he’s not a coach worth building around. It’s better to have a coach that can adapt to talent, not the other way around.

It’s like the inverse of Mike D’Antoni. Give him Toney Douglas as a point guard, he’s still going to coach as if he has Steve Nash. You’re just limiting your options with a dogmatic coach who can’t adapt. Thibs isn’t SO great that you should only bring in Thibs-friendly players. You should be looking to bring in the best talent and the coach should be able to adapt to that.

Thibs hasn’t won enough in this league to justify that kind of treatment.

Thibs benched Mikal in the 4th quarter last night, maybe that will be some kind of wake-up call.

I don’t know, I think we’re giving Thibs too much grief for needing a rim protector. Is there any coach out there who doesn’t?

What’s a new coach really going to do? At best you can get one who makes the offense truly spectacular but no one is fixing this defense.

JK I’m wondering what you think another coach would do to improve the defense. It’s not like these guys are slackers who are trying to undermine him. It’s also not like he doesn’t give them a defensive game plan.

I brought up the Pacers. Rick Carlisle is believed to be a pretty creative, adaptive coach. Is it his fault that his team is 6-10 and Hali is a train wreck? Is he just not the right coach for that collection of guys?

My larger point: there are concerns, but this is the time for patience and adjustments, not for panic and wholesale changes.

Thibs does seem more willing to give up the three-ball than other coaches; that’s where the whole “funneling/ISM” thing got started and he doesn’t seem to have budged from that.

In terms of Z-Man’s recent posts, realistically they aren’t pivoting from Mikal obviously, so the discussion is somewhat academic. That said, I wouldn’t see a new coach around Jan. 1 as panic or wholesale change. Thibs has been here a long time in the context of pro sports coaches.

Sometimes patience is just a stubborn refusal to reach acceptance in a timely manner.

It’s the trajectory of the team that’s concerning to me. It’s not improving. The very worst teams in the league are not automatic W’s for us.

These guys have played only 16 games together — ever.

Previous to yesterday’s stinker they won 4 straight which would have been 6 straight if Jalen’s shot had fallen against the Bulls.

Baby steps.

We could/should snipe at the flaws, but ….

my true troll self thinks maybe we could trade mikal for donte…who knows maybe even get the one first round pick the wolves have over the next 10 years…

i asked google what was wrong with mikal, it seems to think it’s a conditioning issue or possible elbow injury…

To my eyes it looks like this team just doesn’t give a lot of effort on defense, nor do they communicate well, nor do they seem to be able to adjust when the opponent is going on a run. We got roasted to the tune of a 119.7 offensive rating from one of the worst offensive teams in the league.

For a guy who’s supposed to be a defensive whiz, he doesn’t seem to get his teams to punch above their weight on the defensive end. He’s also a prickly personality, so I’m starting to get concerned that some of the new guys are just tuning him out.

I dunno, maybe this turns around and I’m overreacting. But it doesn’t seem like we have improved much over the course of the season. If our offensive stars go off, we usually win. If they don’t, we usually lose, and we’ve lost to a number of bad teams at this point. This just doesn’t seem to be heading in the right direction as we close in on the 20 game mark. Even most of the the wins have seemed shaky.

We’re down to 10th in SRS now, not great for a team that is supposed to be a finished product.

I was thinking it would be pretty funny if we got Dante back on a trade with the wolves but idk if we have anything they want that we would realistically give up.

Also mark me up for team patience. Once we get a true rim protector back in the rotation, even if it’s just Mitch for 24 minutes a night, this team should start to click better.

We’re down to 10th in SRS now, not great for a team that is supposed to be a finished product,

A team in the first quarter of the season with 40% new starters and with many rotation pieces out is hardly a “finished product”

“Sometimes patience is just a stubborn refusal to reach acceptance in a timely manner.”

Wow, that’s really profound.

At what point is it fair to stop using the “new guys” argument? We’re about 20% into the season now and don’t seem to be improving in any noticeable way.

I’m not dismissing it entirely, as we all expected an adjustment period, but that argument has maybe about another 10 games of shelf life.

looks like we’ll start december at 10 – 9…thankfully though, december’s schedule of games (12 games) doesn’t look too terrible…

not worried or troubled at all, because sport’s entertainment doesn’t mean too much – but, yeah sometime in january if the knicks don’t work out their defense, it could be a bothersome season of mostly .500 ball…

still going with our playoff success as a measure of how our season went…

“I dunno, maybe this turns around and I’m overreacting. But it doesn’t seem like we have improved much over the course of the season. If our offensive stars go off, we usually win. If they don’t, we usually lose, and we’ve lost to a number of bad teams at this point. This just doesn’t seem to be heading in the right direction as we close in on the 20 game mark. Even most of the the wins have seemed shaky.”

It may very well be that the coach is not the correct person to lead this team. Or that the personnel mix is wanting and some deals need to be made. Or that things will improve once they get a chance to learn from these losses, or when we get a couple of our injured guys back.

I know there is a tendency to look at the defense and blame last night’s loss on that, but it’s also tough to win with the way our offense looked, especially Brunson, KAT, and Bridges…our so-called Big 3. KAT was wide open at the line, set his feet, and shot an airball. By the fourth quarter he was literally passing up open looks. Meanwhile, Markkanen, Collins, and Sexton were unconscious, even when contested. The defense needs to tighten up for sure, but some of this was simply that they were hot and we were cold.

Again, I bring up the Pacers as a useful comparison. Are folks on PacersBlogger calling for Carlisle’s head? Or concluding that Hali is washed up?

At what point is it fair to stop using the “new guys” argument?

Totally valid (and I’m just a punter) but that’s why I’m looking at tendencies rather than overall won/loss record.

On offense, are we consistently running plays that get KAT, Brunson, OG in spots where they have an advantage. I think we are. Even the last game, they got the shots they wanted but missed.

On defense, can we protect the paint and challenge 3 pt shooters well? Absolutely not. Thibs has to figure it out.

The wait for Mitch and Precious may be a distraction (and may be a disaster if Mitch can’t go that many games). Or maybe those guys solve it.

And, for sure, apologists like me are gonna say “Now the team needs some time with Mitch to get it right.” (Another 20 games? WTF?!) Hahaha. Silly but maybe true.

It’s also silly IMO to think this particular front office is gonna tear down their new creation before the full roster plays even one game together.

We’ve had a remarkably easy start to the season, too. 5th easiest schedule in the league per Bref.

Denver is starting to get their act together and they’re up next. Then we have Dallas, a team that is probably better than their W-L record suggests. Those games are both gonna be tough.

While I am happy to be proven wrong by stats guys (too busy to do a dive), I also think the take that we’re not getting any better is wrong (too). Brunson and KAT have really started to figure it out since the season began; OG seems to have figured it out, slowly but surely; Hart has totally figured it out. Cam’s getting it. Deuce is just out.

Mikal has not figured it out. Or, you know, he has a broken tibia and marriage.

We also have no rim protection with Mitch and Precious out, so we’re going to struggle there. Especially against a team with a front line that starts at 6’9″ and goes up rapidly from there.

Yesterday was a stinker. We couldn’t shoot, we couldn’t stop anyone, we seemed a step off. They hit everything. Stinkers happen.

Those games are both gonna be tough.

No doubt. And maybe — if we lose both — there’s a players/team meeting in the future. Good. They might need one.

For many of us, we are now *supposed* to win games. Most would agree this is uncharted territory for, you know, the Knicks. Even last year we punched above our weight. If our expectations are (perhaps?) irrational, it’s natural to be impatient.

Honestly, I would bet that our “last” team with Julius and DDV would be better at this point in the season bc of continuity and blah blah. But I would not bet on that team to be better than the current one over the next 3 years.

Doncic is out so that helps!

At what point is it fair to stop using the “new guys” argument?

Fair question… History tells us this isn’t unusual…

20 10-11 Heatles were 9-8 their first season before they figured it out

The 21-22 Celtics were 19-20 til they figured out and went 32 -11 and went to the finals.

History also tells us KAT is better playing the 4 with a rim protector.

randle’s shoulder looks good as new. but it’s still attached to a torso that is very picky about which defensive possessions it participates in. don’t really get how he never came around on this.

Honestly, I would bet that our “last” team with Julius and DDV would be better at this point in the season bc of continuity and blah blah. But I would not bet on that team to be better than the current one over the next 3 years.

Last years team without IHart and Mitch would have difficulty being .500 with little upside.

IHart provided enormous value.

If a stat machine in the sky came down to tell us that IHart was better than KAT I wouldn’t have a hard time believing it. That’s how bad KAT has been at the 5 and also how much I love IHart.

The difference in their defense is bigger than the difference in their offense.

We still look like a 51 win team but the vibes are going to be much different.

Following a smooth win like we had in Phoenix with an inept loss like that is extra rough too.

That being said, KAT is questionable for the Nuggets and I think Joker might go for 60.

Last years team without IHart and Mitch would have difficulty being .500 with little upsidde.

Well iHart ain’t walking through that door, and Mitch is pretty much done as a full time NBA player..

“The second best team in the East” is down 25 after 3 at home to the Kawhi-less Clippers in James Harden’s return to Philly.

When they get healthy, though…

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/10144426-nba-rumors-west-coaches-execs-exasperated-looking-at-east-playoff-bracket-picture.amp.html

Some execs want the NBA to remove conferences because the East sucks

I don’t even know if they could trade Embiid at this point but they should

60 million starting next season . If Embiid can’t stay on the court it would be hard to field a competitive team for any potential buyer.

Donte gets the start, didn’t see the game but the scorecard suggests he did better than usual, which, well…

Butler was fouled on the game tying dunk that sent the game to overtime, it was an easy and obvious call. I guess Spoelstra had used his challenge. (Either that or Butler didn’t even notice the contact, which is possible to, as he absorbs so much for 4 quarters).

Embiid’s like Markkanen; he can’t be traded this year bc he signed the extension.

The only thing that scares me about this team is that they may get the #1 pick.

Some execs want the NBA to remove conferences because the East sucks

I’m sure the execs are from middling western teams who would like an easier path to the playoffs.

Some execs want the NBA to remove conferences because the East sucks

That was before they realized that Ty Jerome was actually amazing at basketball. The East shall stay.

Ty Jerome reppin Westchester just like Donovan Mitchell.

@Donnie, I don’t think Spoelstra could have challenged even if he still had his challenge because of the deeply irritating rule that non-rules cannot be challenged.

Aha, thanks. (I was watching with the sound off. Looked like an obvious challenge, as Butler would have had a ft for the outright win. That explains it, though).

Last RJ game I watched they beat the wolves and he was something like 1-3 or 1-4 from 3 and all his other shots were at the rim and he had a great game. Then I look at his line tonight and he scored 16 points on 18 shots and I’m reminded why I didn’t us to keep him

6-18 and 2-6 from the line. Cavs are tough though.

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