Knicks Morning News (2024.11.22)

Eye test is really all you need to determine OG’s defensive impact. Trying to diminish his impact on defense is really a silly undertaking. He’s clearly one of the very best non-rim protecting defenders in the NBA. Full stop.

He is also a pretty good but not great offensive player. If one is going to compare him to all-time greats (he’s clearly not one) it should be someone like Pippen. He’s not Scottie Pippen on either end, but he’s a damn good poor man’s version.

Is he worth what we gave up for him? Most definitely.

Is he worth what he is getting paid? Probably not, but he could probably still easily be traded on his deal if he stays healthy.

And that is literally the only concern we should have about OG. He is an excellent starter on a contender-level team. He’s our Derrick White, who the Celts acquired and now extended at a colossal bargain.

Now, that said, might there have been better ways to expend RJ, IQ, a virtual first, and upwards of 25% of the cap (and Precious should be factored in, he’s pretty good!)? Sure. But there were way worse ways too. We’re not talking Tobias Harris here.

“Then you fundamentally agree with the fundamental assertion involved.”

Not at all, beyond the assertion that nearly every transaction involves a theoretical opportunity cost. I don’t have one iota of buyer’s remorse about OG beyond lingering concerns about his durability. And as you well know, I am not a member of the RJ Haterz Hive. I just think OG is a far better sidekick to KAT and Brunson, and would have been to Julius and Brunson if we stood pat. Leon may have paid a premium, but it was for a sound reason. Trashing OG’s impact is just unnecessary. It’s fucking as obvious as hell.

I have WAY more buyer’s remorse about Mikal. And I like Mikal, but the price we paid was outrageous and unprecedented. Quibbling about OG’s cost of acquisition and salary is boring in comparison.

“There might not be a more irrelevant team in the NBA right now than the Toronto Raptors.”

I don’t think this is true. They are getting their injured players back, and they should be a pretty good, pretty deep young team once they do.

“He’s a plus starter. If you don’t have an agenda and aren’t using arcane noisy on-off numbers to boost whatever shtick you’re trying to do, it’s rather obvious he’s a plus defender who can credibly guard 1-4 and isn’t a zero on offense. That’s a plus starter, and on the free market that is what plus starters cost.”

While I largely agree with the premise, this is not really a comprehensive way to look at it. The question should include: How many players are there earning significantly below what OG is earning that deliver similar or better value? (not including those on rookie deals)

Hubert postulated that OG would be great value at something like $20M AAV but is woefully overpaid at $40M AAV. That’s not where I am but not a crazy thought.

The problem is that teams who have the OGs of the world on at-or-below market value deals hold on to them for dear life, and only trade them for a king’s ransom.

I think Bridges is in a similar tier to OG, and look what it took to pry him loose from the Nets.

Alternatively, look what it took for Minny to pry DDV on his deal away from us!

That’s where you have to give Brad Stevens (and Ainge before him) lots of credit. They were excellent at sniffing out the White’s, KP’s, and Jrue’s of the NBA…guys who were both worth more than they paid and who they could retain on team-friendly deals.

In that sense, I don’t think that either the OG or Mikal deals measure up. That’s not to say that th OG deal was “bad,” just not anything close to a steal when compared to the moves the Celts made, or the Randle/DDV/Brunson/iHart/Mitch/Deuce deals.

You could even throw Hart’s deal in there. We got him for a lottery-protected first, and extended him for $19M AAV. Is he that much worse than OG? If not, then either Hart was a ridiculous steal or OG is a substantial overpay on both ends.

“There’s the OG is shit camp, the Bridges is shit camp, the KAT is shit camp, there’s always been a Josh Hart is shit camp, there’s even been some attempts at Jalen Brunson has been exposed, the ongoing Thibs is shit camp has been around for a while too.
And then whatever happens on the games causes a shift towards which camp gets more or less vocal.”

I don’t get how you see things this way…even with the tongue-in-cheek element considered.

No one, and I mean no one, is suggesting that any of OG, Bridges, KAT, or Hart is “shit” in any way that you could possibly be justified in using that adjective.

Most of the arguments are about whether the trades were worth making based on opportunity cost.

I get all the reasons why one might be annoyed by those arguments:
-we have the best sustainable team to root for since the ’90s
-no use crying over spilt milk
-it’s too early to judge
-no need to employ hyperbole, distortion, conjecture, or speculation to die on a stupid hill

But I actually enjoy the conversations on these things during off-days. Some of it is tedious, but mostly folks are talking in good faith, and not in a way that suggest the camps you laid out.

“OG needs to be paired with a big to make the most impact. OG & Hartenstein were dominant. OG & Precious are dynamic. OG & Mitch might be special. I think it’s fair to wonder if Towns at C will always diminish OG’s defensive impact. (It’s doing wonders for OG’s offense, though.)”

Again, it’s still a silly thing to argue. It’s like arguing that having Darrell Revis has no defensive impact because the opposing QBs are just beating guys on the other side of the field. The answer is to address the other side of the field. So the impact is there, just not optomized yet.

In other words, if you are arguing that the defense misses iHart, Mitch, and Precious (and now Deuce) that’s totally fair! But that’s not on OG. It’s still a lot harder to game plan against a defense when a “brick wall” renders one side of the court or one player much less effective. And then there’s the whole funneling thing that ardently Thibs believes in but obviously is a mirage because KB posters think it’s stupid.

The biggest glaring hole in our defense right now is KAT. The efort is there, but he changes directions like an aircraft carrier. He is extremely heavy on his feet and once he lurches it’s over. Hopefully Thibs can tinker with his footwork so that he reaches and lunges less. Then comes Brunson, who is just so physically limited that without 3 good wings and a good defensive C he is exploitable. OG, Mikal, and Hart help a lot with that, but they can’t do much to offset KAT’s deficiencies. That’s where Mitch and Precious come in. But OG’s impact is still very much there on virtually every possession.