[New York Post] – Tue, 13 Feb 2024 03:50:00 GMT
- Controversial Jalen Brunson foul call spoils Knicks’ comeback in loss to Rockets
- Rockets win after foul that ‘should not have been called’
- Rockets sneak past Knicks after late, controversial foul call on Jalen Brunson that left Tom Thibodeau irate
- Jalen Brunson, Tom Thibodeau react to costly call in Knicks’ loss at Rockets
- Officials admit to wrong call on final play of Knicks’ loss to Rockets
[New York Post] – Mon, 12 Feb 2024 23:54:00 GMT
- Pistons’ Evan Fournier ‘really excited to be out of New York’ after Knicks trade
- Evan Fournier on Knicks-Pistons Trade: ‘I’m Really Excited’ to Be Out of New York
- Ex-Celtics Guard Excited For New Start Following Trade Deadline
- Knicks Trade Fournier to Pistons; Magic Sign After Buyout?
- Evan Fournier: ‘I’m really excited to finally be out of New York’
[Daily Knicks] – Mon, 12 Feb 2024 22:00:02 GMT
Theo Pinson says what people like Kenny Smith refuse to believe about Knicks
[New York Post] – Tue, 13 Feb 2024 02:47:00 GMT
Knicks’ Donte DiVincenzo eyeing spot on Italian Olympic team despite hurdles
[hoopsrumors.com] – Mon, 12 Feb 2024 23:37:00 GMT
New York Notes: Sharpe, Johnson, Simmons, Knicks Injuries, Bogdanovic
[Sports Illustrated] – Mon, 12 Feb 2024 20:27:02 GMT
Brunson Trails Only Anthony in Latest Knicks Milestone
[New York Post] – Mon, 12 Feb 2024 21:00:00 GMT
- Knicks vs. Rockets prediction: NBA odds, picks, best bets for Monday
- Game Thread: New York Knicks at Houston Rockets, February 12, 2024
- Knicks vs. Rockets odds, line, spread, time: 2024 NBA picks, February 12 predictions from proven model
- New York Knicks vs. Houston Rockets Prediction: Can Isaiah Hartenstein Continue to Produce?
- Rockets vs. Knicks: Five things to watch as Houston returns home
[CBS Sports] – Tue, 13 Feb 2024 09:55:26 GMT
Knicks’ Josh Hart: Timely shooting in tough loss
[New York Post] – Tue, 13 Feb 2024 06:01:00 GMT
Knicks map out Julius Randle’s plan to return from shoulder injury
134 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2024.02.13)”
The NBA should amend its challenge rules. There is virtually no scenario in which it is optimal for the coach to save the challenge for the last play of the game. They should give teams more challenges and/or an additional challenge in games that are close late.
If you can review whether the ball left the hands before the shot clock expired, there is no reason not to review the actual call itself. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Just another random coincidence, right fellas? Unavoidable bad luck.
Actually one of them (iHart) did come back and Thibs ran him into the ground again. So don’t get your hopes up.
They say that about Edey too.
Just wait. If the losses start piling up they are probably going rush Randle back too soon and raise the risk of damage that will ultimately force surgery. They are putting monstrously too much weight on this season in how they are allocating minutes, bringing back injured players and in that last trade for a team that at 100% is probably around 1%-2% to win the title. The OG move was fine both short and long term, but everything else has been a move in the wrong direction.
Thibs’s philosophy seems to be that if I just do everything right today, and since tomorrow will eventually by definition become today, everything will be done right tomorrow, too.
QED.
But that’s not how this works.
“The OG move was fine both short and long term, but everything else has been a move in the wrong direction.”
It was fine, but because of its terms, it naturally begat bad moves.
Is Bogey even going to play in the playoffs if everyone’s healthy? He’s clearly behind Josh Hart and Precious in Thibs’s eyes. Josh Hart played 42 minutes again last night.
I have one request: rest everyone for the last game before the all star. Start Boggy, Borges, McBride, Sims, and Precious, and have the scrubs and call-ups play the 2nd unit. For once please be smart about the workload on the players you hope will lead you in the playoffs.
Hart was pretty damn good last night, though.
Bojan got some buckets but the stretch of basketball the Knicks played in the 2Q with him, Burks, Deuce, and Taj was an eyesore.
Burks was terrible and I have to say I am not excited to have him back. He should play when Brunson sits and not a minute more.
Precious is the revelation. I love that guy and I hope we make resigning him a priority. If it comes down to resigning Precious or Burks to stay under the second apron, give me Precious and let Alex go.
Meh.
If Burks, Bogey, or Donte had just hit their season average from three, we would’ve won handily.
But this is where we miss Randle. He puts scoring pressure on the other team deep in the paint AND can pass it out for open shots. Our guys aren’t getting those easy looks since he’s been out.
The move this team needed to make was Brogdon but Portland didn’t play ball. Trade for Brogdon, keep Grimes, and life is good.
In the absence of a perfect move, Leon was left with a series of flawed options. I still think he chose the right one but this trade was not the slam dunk the media made it out to be because Alec Burks is not a backup PG.
I spent half the 2Q having flashbacks to 2022 watching Point Burks and I didn’t like it. Thibs didn’t, either. I actually think his adjustments were masterful in the 2nd half. He just “forgot” to give Devo a rest.
The problem is they were unforced.
We went on a winning streak during an easy part of the schedule loaded with home games. A lot of people here made projections of a great January. Yet somehow that seems to have made everyone in media and at the team think we were contenders and should start making win now moves like running everyone else into the ground and trading a young guy for two old guys (neither of which is a PG) to salvage our playoff position and try to win a title this year.
Even if we were 100% healthy we needed a bench scorer/playmaker. So something had to be done.
I’m not sure who was available and at what cost, but I would have preferred we try to bring in someone that could hold down the fort for the rest of the season without sacrificing a good asset even if he was a lesser player. And I would have preferred Thibs be able to think at least 5 minutes into the future when allocating minutes.
IMO, some of these injuries are likely related to exhaustion and trying to play through minor aches and pains. Other teams think long term and give players a day off here or there when they are very tired or hurting even if they might lose a game. As we can see, when players get hurt you lose those games later anyway.
I actually like what I’ve seen from Bojan. I’ve seen him play and know what a great shooter he is but have been impressed by how very under control he is on offense. He’s also not a gunslinger at all, you see he tries to move the ball and looks for screens. On defense yeah he’s not athletic but you see he tries and knows where to be on defense.
He’ll fit in better than I thought once everyone is healthy, I hope he continues to get mins because I think his spacing would be a huge benefit playing with Brunson and Randle.
that was a poorly officiated game last night
It kills me to say this but in the cold light of morning that was definitely a foul. The refs got it right calling that. Brunson absolutely made a ton of contact on the body and we have learned that’s a very makeable shot.
Brunson had no business trying to challenge with his t-Rex arms. Love what he did in the second half, love the effort, but he was never going to bother the shot.
Proud of the comeback. Hopefully we can come out of the All Star break with some healthy bodies.
And yes, the officiating was crap for the most part.
The crew chief after the game admitted to the media that it shouldn’t have been called a foul.
On another angle you see Holiday kick out his arm and leg to sell the contact. It was at least as bad a sell as what Divo did at the end of the half. In my eyes, Brunson got called for a foul on a perfect contest. It was and is bullshit.
We are down 3 starters and our primary backup center. That’s 4 of our most productive 6 players. Guys are going to play too many minutes and we’re going to lose some games. It sucks but it is what it is.
Yes, at least 20 minutes per game. Feel free to screenshot, bookmark, etc.
Sometimes the boring answer is the right one–it’s just impossible to evaluate this team right now. If our starting lineup from the jump was Brunson/DDV/Hart/Achiuwa/Sims-when-he-doesn’t-have-the-plague, what would the preseason wins prediction thread have looked like? I probably would have guessed 35 or so, even with Bogey and Burks.
With that said, I honestly fault Thibs to some extent for not just fully punting these games in which we’re missing so many key rotation players. I truly think we’d have been better off just giving the key rotation guys a pre all-star break sabbatical of sorts once it became clear how decimated we’d be.
But there’s no halfway Thibs. I’ve become much more sympathetic to him than many, primarily because the team has been much, much better since he arrived, but also, relatedly, because there truly does seem to be a somewhat intangible “no quit” culture instilled that obviously works to our benefit.
That has more upsides than downsides, but it does have downsides and we’re seeing them now.
Well, this is kind of the rub isn’t it?
Nick Nurse is worse than Thibs when it comes to minutes.
It is self-destructive masochism to still argue about that last call even after the referee crew chief admitted it was a mistake. Wow!
Me, too. He’s just not exactly what we needed. We needed someone who can do what he does and play backup PG. Instead we bifurcated the need and ended up with two players to solve one problem.
Bojan gives us what we need but he doesn’t play the position we needed to get it from to make the minutes work.
Bogey’s at 23 now and (hopefully) coming back before playoff time at his position(s) are (1) an all-star; and (2) a really good player. And Bogey somehow passing Josh Hart and Precious in Thibs’s eyes seems … unlikely.(*)
I guess he might somehow get to 20 in the playoffs, but that seems objectively like a high projection. Conditions and premises will have to change materially to get him to that number. (And just in big picture organizational terms, trading actual assets for players who the coach doesn’t think are even as good as Josh Hart and Precious doesn’t really seem to make a lot of sense. But YMMV.)
(*) And also looming over the festivities is the Spectre of Fournier.
So what?
I’ve never heard that Nick Nurse teams play all out every possession like Thibs demands his players to.
Tyrese Maxey played 42 minutes last night. He chucked most of his shots from the perimeter, got fouled twice, and played shit defense.
Precious last night was both our starting 4 and our backup center. That’s why he played so much. Burks is a guard. Josh Hart is going to play big minutes until OG-who he backs up-returns from injury.
But their challenge they used earlier, was it impactful? Did it save/earn points? If so, does that wash away whatever benefit to saving the challenge until the end play would have been?
Bogey’s more of a 3 than he is a 4, though he can play small ball 4. Not sure where the idea came that he’s solely a 4. He can play Josh Hart’s position, better than Josh Hart.
If he was going to be blocked by the coach for Josh Hart, trading an asset for him was not smart.
The Sixers beat a team that hadn’t lost in 3 weeks, by 2 points, on the road. They probably tried pretty hard.
It wasn’t worth it cause Maxey played 42 mins and Oubre played 41 mins!
It’s just shuffling the deck chairs around until the good players get back.
Straw man, Donnie.
the other thing is that Josh Hart played really well last night. 7-11 for 17 points, 11 rebounds and 5 assists is nice game.
Pretty soon Hart and Precious will be watching the games from the bench in street clothes too, so Bojan will get to play 46 minutes per game.
It sucks that the refs got the call wrong, but still think it was dumb of Brunson to give such a hard contest on a falling away fling. It was also dumb to be in that position in the first place. I thought that was one of Thibs’ worst coaching job of his Knicks tenure. Playing the starters all 12 minutes of the 3rd was moronic, no excuse for it, period.
I would actually love it if Thibs was given a load management game off. He is coaching like he’s exhausted.
FWIW I’m 100% in agreement here. Strangely, though, there is a vocal contingent of “Downside Deniers” to contend with.
Deuce played five minutes, and DDV had played 41 of a possible 43 before predictably getting hurt and asking out of the game. He’s gonna be the next to go down, Thibs is genuinely abusing him. At the very least I don’t expect DDV to continue his stellar play for much longer given that he is on the floor 40+ minutes every game. He’s getting Luol Deng’d.
We have other players who could play more.
I’m also entirely in agreement that Thibs has built a positive culture here and I credit him greatly for that. He’s extremely talented at doing that. This place was a clown show under David Fizdale and Steve Mills. It’s nothing like that anymore.
Now that he’s done that, you’ve gotten his value-add, there really isn’t much upside left (*) and the downside, in terms of personnel usage and perception, is starting to overweigh, and at that point, you thank him for his service and move on to a better fit.
They’re simply at a different point on the “coaching win curve” than they were when they hired him. It’s a significantly different job now. Thibs bumps up against the limits of his talents and skill-set in *this* job. (He always has, and it’s easy to see why.)
(*) There is of course “maintaining the culture,” which shouldn’t be taken for granted. Thibs would likely do that. But so would any number of coaches who, while not as good at changing cultures as Thibs is, are his equal or better at maintaining and/or progressing them.
I ran out of time and actually didn’t give Thibs enough credit. The place was a clown show under David Fizdale and not only did Thibs turn that around, he immediately turned it around.
There is no doubt Thibs has his downside when it comes to lineup decisions. I just think too much is made about the minutes, I grew up with the 90s NBA where players played way more minutes and games with much less built in days off than in today’s schedule. Plus I don’t think Thibs playing his best players alot of minutes is unique just to him.
I mentioned Nurse because last season Raptors had 2 of the top 5 in mins per game plus also OG all played more mins per game than Randle and Brunson. Last night he played 2 players over 40 mins and Embiid played games this season where he was clearly laboring but stayed out there.
DDV is averaging over 40 minutes per game in his last 8 games, played 41 of 43 minutes last night, hurt his hamstring and had to ask to be taken out. He probably would have played 45 minutes if he hadn’t predictably gotten hurt.
That’s an overuse injury to a crucial player, in the interest of winning a road game against the Houston Rockets in February. A game that we ended up losing. I don’t think too much is being made of the minutes. We’re getting a breakout performance from DDV and Thibs is ruining him.
It is.
I qualified it by saying I would have been willing to take an inferior player to Burks/Bojan as long as he actually fit the need and we didn’t give up a good asset. A couple of 2nds for someone that could at least score and make plays off the bench for a few months would have been fine if we couldn’t get a primary target like Brogdon. Then you look for a more permanent solution in the off season.
At full strength we are going to have more depth and be able to score better with the addition of Burks/Bojan. But IMO it’s not a long term solution. And as I’ve repeatedly said, I think we have some issues on defense now. We may need Mitch to come back so we have an anchor both starting and off the bench.
Your clear-eyed & very sane reasoning is not welcome here, dred. Throw out some spicy takes or gtfo.
It’s neither clear eyed nor sane to suggest that Alec Burks couldn’t spell DDV for more than 2 minutes.
Or that Deuce McBride can’t play more than 5 minutes in a game against the friggin’ Rockets.
We may be missing players but we had enough last night to use a sensible rotation.
Coach chose insanity. It wasn’t forced on him.
I am sympathetic to Thibs, I am not sympathetic to the army of Downside Deniers who can’t admit they got it wrong.
The steel man case for Thibs’ rotations is with our current injury situation, anything other than Thibsian minutes loads to our best players likely leads to losses against all but the worst teams. I don’t think there’s much of a have our cake and eat it too option–playing Charlie Brown, or even Deuce on a night where we struggled so much offensively, probably leads to a loss.
So you have to be comfortable with saying “we should be losing these games in the name of keeping minute loads manageable.”
As I said earlier, I am in fact 100% comfortable aligning myself with that proposition. I truly wish we just punted through the all-star break once the injury situation reached a critical mass. The likelihood we win these games is too low from the jump to take massive risks to increase it a little.
Donte’s 128th in the NBA in minutes played this season, he is not being ridden like Luol Deng. He’s arguably played too much for 2 weeks.
You’re in denial.
He has averaged 40+ minutes per game over his last eight games. That is overuse, and whattayaknow, shocker, he hurts his hammy.
If he can go again in the next game, he’ll go another 40+ minutes, until he sustains a severe enough injury that he can’t play anymore. He’ll get hurt and miss time before the other guys come back. Which means now you have to play Alex Burks 40 minutes, until he gets hurt. And so on.
Anthony Mason one season played all 82 games and averaged 42 mins per game.
No I’m not saying every good player should do that, it’s pretty insane looking back that Mase had that workload. But it adds some context when complaining about a player having an extra workload for 2 weeks in the current NBA where games are much more spread out and the schedule in general is alot more player friendly than 30 years ago.
I get complaining about minutes allocation because inferior players are playing too much but it’s hard for me to get too worked up about the best players playing too many minutes. They’re the best players they’re supposed to play as much as needed to win games.
I don’t care how much or little anyone else can play, I care about how much my guys can play without injury — the answer is less than Thibs plays them.
I disagree with fervor.
A month ago, people were defending the 45 minutes OG played on the second night of a back-to-back (after he played 44 minutes on the first night!) by saying the same thing. “If you give Precious Achiuwa 15 minutes,” they said “you have no chance of winning the game.” That was the case y’all made.
Now Precious plays 40 minutes a night and people are saying we’re going to lose if you give him a rest!!
I think it’s pretty obvious now you could have played Precious 15 minutes back in January without waving the white flag.
Likewise I don’t accept that giving Deuce McBride 12 mins right now equals full surrender.
I’m sure there’s a slight increase in injury chance when guys play more, but NBA players can absolutely play 40+ minutes 8 games in a row without getting hurt, they do it all the time.
Immense respect to whoever gave Jalen Brunson a first-place MVP vote in the latest straw poll.
No notes!
We should be giving our backups more minutes irrespective of the injury issues, I think. You get to the end of the game and everyone is so clearly gassed from getting ridden like Secretariat. Deuce, in particular, has justified rotation minutes even after the Burks/Bojan trade.
Edit: except Taj. He’s unplayable.
Burks played fine in the 2nd half, easily could’ve put him in.
Sims shutdown Sengun all night, could’ve put him in
Deuce made a couple tough shots, could’ve put him in.
The starters fought back and tied the game. You have to trust your reserves not to blow it for a couple minutes so you can give your starters a breather.
If you’re talking Charlie Brown and Jacob Toppin, that’s full surrender. And I’m with you, Noble, I would be willing to accept the L for the bigger picture.
But Alec Burks? Against the Rockets!?? If playing that guy is full surrender why the hell did we get him?
Yeah, we definitely could have given the guy you’ve spent the year yelling isn’t playing enough less time last night, but we didn’t. I just don’t think asking a guy to play 40 minutes for like 10 games is an insane risk to run, these guys are pro athletes, they all play hurt to some degree most of the year.
Like Hartenstein fucked up his hammy or achilles last year when he played 20 minutes a game and (apparently) played hurt for like half the season.
Yeah, you know I’m right there with on all of it. Terrible call, but Brunson shouldn’t have even been in the position for them to possibly make that call (it’s debatable whether he should have even been out there on defense period), and that third quarter was nucking futs. I don’t think I’ve seen anything quite like it, and then the fourth starts, and only Sims gets a rest!!
I think that the game is more physically demanding now than it was in the 1990’s. While there’s some reduced physicality, the players have more real estate to cover on each possession, and more defensive responsibility vs. on-paper mismatches. Not sure if Mase could have done today what he did back then, or to use an extreme example, Wilt.
Regardless, at the end of the 3rd quarter, the players were visually gassed and needed rest. Thibs did nothing and Aaron Holiday took advantage. That’s an unforgivable in-game tactical error, and it probably cost us the game.
Did it cost us beyond that? Possibly, the DDV thing sort of feels like overuse. But it was 100% a tactical error.
Burks made some key buckets down the stretch. Like that big three off the Josh Hart drive-and-kick.
Problem is people want to save the players for the playoffs but then when you increase their minutes in May they can’t handle the extra workload cause they’re not used to doing it during the regular season.
It’s a fine line but I’m with Dred on this.
4Q +/-
Achiuwa +1
Hart +1
Donte -1
Brunson -4
Bogdanovic +3
Burks +7
We won the minutes Burks played and lost the minutes Brunson & Donte played. Playing your reserves doesn’t kill you.
The big change in the NBA now versus the 1990s regarding legs, and this has been repeated by players a number of times, is that you totally could take plays off in the old NBA (and regularly did), while now you can’t, since everyone is a shooter now.
When Ewing was backing down Bill Wennington, you better believe that everyone else on the court was sagging off on the play. They can’t even do that with Sengun nowadays!
By the way, if the Knicks get last night’s Josh Hart in the playoffs (and get even reasonably healthy – like having OG and iHart back, at least), they’ll be able to hang with anyone. When Hart is swishing long threes and driving to the basket, he is a game-changer out there, since he’s always going to defend and rebound.
If you have an issue with the trade, then the root cause was actually extending Deuce. It would have been better to trade Deuce and keep Grimes, letting us go after a traditionally-sized PG instead of needing Brogdon or another big wing who can run an offense.
But we need to give the trade more time and let Burks & Bojan work their way into the offense.
I don’t think you’d get Bojan for Deuce. Burks, yes, but not Bojan. The Pistons clearly valued Grimes highly in the deal.
I just mean we could’ve gotten Tyus Jones or somebody PG-sized for cheaper. Jones/Grimes works in a way that Jones/Deuce probably doesn’t. There’s a lot more PG-sized PGs than wing-sized PGs.
And I don’t actually have a problem with the trade, just wanted to note that
I am going to have to disagree with the sentiment that playing in 2024 is more grueling than 1994. Players may run more today but the physicality of the 90s seems more likely to cause injury than the aerobic shape players need to be in today.
To clarify my point I don’t think playing guys 40+ minutes a night all year is good but asking them to go for 10 games when you have a lot of guys out is probably an acceptable risk.
Also, for the people upset we’ve traded away all our youth, Achiuwa is 1.5 years younger than Obi and Deuce is only 23.
We’ve been successful making stars out of older players like Brunson, Randle, and (so far) Donte. That’s where we’ve produced most of our upside. Maybe this should be its own topic, as we’ve done an excellent job developing good players into stars and superstars.
Lil’ Penny says:
February 13, 2024 at 11:08
I’m also entirely in agreement that Thibs has built a positive culture here and I credit him greatly for that. He’s extremely talented at doing that. This place was a clown show under David Fizdale and Steve Mills. It’s nothing like that anymore….I ran out of time and actually didn’t give Thibs enough credit. The place was a clown show under David Fizdale and not only did Thibs turn that around, he immediately turned it around.”
Translation: Dear Z-man, you were right all along! Sorry for ever disagreeing with you! Sincerely, E
“Now that he’s done that, you’ve gotten his value-add, there really isn’t much upside left and the downside, in terms of personnel usage and perception, is starting to overweigh, and at that point, you thank him for his service and move on to a better fit….They’re simply at a different point on the “coaching win curve” than they were when they hired him. It’s a significantly different job now. Thibs bumps up against the limits of his talents and skill-set in *this* job. (He always has, and it’s easy to see why.)”
The problem here is that even if this opinion is accurate (it isn’t, but I digress…) Leon, nor any credible FO, would ever do this, especially given what you said about how much credit he deserves for turning things around and establishing a culture. There would have to be a clear, unquestionable failure on Thibs’ part for Leon to move on from him. I think he bought himself time by “overachieving” last year…I know you have recently been banging the drum that we should have beaten Miami and were a legit contender last year, but Leon, or any rational FO, would probably give Thibs the benefit of the doubt.
All of that said, I agree that in a way, he is on notice…if the team underachieves in the playoffs this year (i.e. loses in the first round) whether due to injuries that could be ascribed to overuse or due to any other reason, it wouldn’t shock me if Wes convinces Leon to move on from Thibs. But if we lose due to “bad luck” (e.g. Randle fucking up his ankle last year) or to a better opponent (see: a healthy Celtics team, or another team that goes to the finals, e.g. Cavs, then I think the FO will determine that Thibs was not the problem and will roll him out there to start next season. And I’d be good with that (see: below).
“There is of course “maintaining the culture,” which shouldn’t be taken for granted. Thibs would likely do that. But so would any number of coaches who, while not as good at changing cultures as Thibs is, are his equal or better at maintaining and/or progressing them.”
This is possibly true, but who are these guys? Are they both proven and available? Is the devil you know better than the devil you don’t know? That’s why I am good with the “it’s his job to lose” approach, whether I believe in his being “the one” or not.
Where you and I differ most is that I actually think Thibs can coach a team to a championship. I think your opinion of his “upside” is nonsense, especially the “he always has and it’s easy to see why” stuff. It is as false for Thibs as it was for Larry Brown, or Budz, or Nurse, or any demonstrably excellent coach.
I don’t have a problem with it, but I think the media blew it out of proportion and I’m recalibrating my expectations.
Bojan is probably the 5th forward here. He’s going to help us a lot when OG and Randle are out but I don’t see how he gets 20 minutes in the playoffs.
And our backup PG situation improved but I think only from untenable (Deuce) to suboptimal (Burks).
Obviously news to me the crew admitted it was a mistake. Doesn’t sound like them either.
Brunson seeemed to make contact with him while he was in the air. That’s how I remembered it anyway. Memory appears to be a funny thing.
There’s a difference between running and full out sprinting while planting your foot hard to make a sharp cut. It’s exhausting and that’s when you can get sloppy landing after a jump.
And of course there’s a lot more driving and jumping at the rim where a player might undercut you or knock you to the ground. Years ago Randle would be backing people down slowly instead of trying to jump over them.
The physical style of the 90s leads to a lot of bumps and bruises, but you usually aren’t wrenching your tendons or landing awkwardly between 5 guys while in the post. You can play through a bruise, you can’t play through a snapped ligament.
Playing defense is certainly more difficult today than in the 90’s. Not being able to use your hands to slow down players on and off the ball makes it extremely difficult. Clyde likes to say you play defense with your feet not your hands and that’s certainly more accurate in today’s NBA. The better spacing too obviously means you have so much more area you have to defend.
The only context in which the opinions of the “smart pundits” make even a smidgen of sense is with Bogie as the third forward behind OG and Julius playing high-20s minutes per game.(*)
They underestimated Thibs’s preferences and quirks and dedication to … cough … defense and intangibles … and likely couldn’t start to fathom that he’d be behind Josh Hart and Precious as well.
With Bogie heading toward the role it looks like he’s heading toward, the idea that the Knicks somehow “won” the deadline is laughable.
(*) I think it took me awhile to get my bearings and read you guys to get to reality, because my first, word-association-speed, thought upon hearing the trade was that Bogie would be in the starting lineup until both Julius and OG got back. I mean, the guy’s been a starter including for good teams for like 8 years straight. Man, was that stupid. Should have known that Thibs was gonna Thibs.
The disconnect with the pundits is between “the trade gives the Knicks a lot of versatility and options and tools” and the reality that Thibs doesn’t really have much interest in those options and tools.
I think it’ll take time for the improvement to really show. There’s going to be an adjustment period as Burks and Bojan adjust to new teammates.
I think we should play them alongside Deuce to have 3 capable ballhandlers on the floor.
Bojan might end up being more important than Burks for running the offense. He looks incredibly savvy exploiting mismatches and making the right pass (except when it goes to Hart).
And to clarify mine, I don’t think it’s that big a deal if you lead the league in minutes by playing 36/night like Julius Randle in 2021.
But there are the three specific risks Thibs takes that I think are unacceptable:
1) the sudden and prolonged increase of minutes (like when Devo & iHart go from being part time players to playing entire halves with no rest and then they stay there for weeks) instead of taking a gradual approach or resting players after unusually high work loads.
2) overuse in condensed time periods, like when you have three games in 4 days and you play OG Anunoby in 133 of 144 possible minutes.
3) playing guys who are clearly injured, like Mitch and Hartenstein.
The offense running through Bojan at the beginning of the 4th quarter kept the game close until Brunson checked back in. That is exactly why we traded for him.
Someone just call Deuce McBrunson untenable?
When Player A was banging with Player F, then Players B, C, D, E, G, H, I and J were all just standing there. Sure, Player A and Player B were banging into each other, but the others were all getting a rest. Nowadays, Players A-E are running around the court being chased by Players F-J throughout the whole play, every play. Just look at Mitch when the Knicks play a stretch 5. The dude is zooming around everywhere for the full 24 seconds!
Specifically as the primary backup PG in a 7 game series, Raven.
IHart’s recent injury was said to be caused by overuse. DDV has been playing hurt and so is JHart. If you play them 40+ minutes a game you increase the likelihood of a serious injury, and then they won’t be there when your good players come back, so you’ll have them play 40+ minutes, and increase the chances of them getting injured again. It’s a stupid circle that can kill your season, for the possible gain of maayyybe 1-2 wins.
An overuse injury to one or more of the hamstrings to DDV should be minor if the medical staff is competent. The cause is most commonly restriction and weakness in the ilio-psoas muscle (prime mover of hip flexion). The hamstrings just assists the i-p in hip flexion. When the i-p asks too much of the hamstrings to assist it, they overload and cause myo-fascial syndrome causing pain and loss of function in the hamstring(s). The ilio-psoas usually has little or no pain so it often gets overlooked. If you just treat the hammies, the problem comes back and gets called “chronic.” Treat the ilio-psoas and the problem gets better.
Where is Bojan getting 20 minutes if both of our centers are healthy in the playoffs?
His best value is his contract followed by being a very capable 3rd stringer but he will be collecting DNPs – coaching decision. Since trade Achiuwa has been one of the best back up 4s in the league. Here are the two forward positions. It’s not rocket science.
Randle 36, Achiuwa 12
OG 36, Hart 12
If we only have one center available and Achiuwa gets his minutes at the 5, then sure but we gave up Grimes for an insurance policy for an all in run at the conference finals. Heavy price…hope we have good time in May.
“Specifically as the primary backup PG in a 7 game series, Raven.”
Grudging lack of disagreement, Hubert. How’s that for taking the L.
However, I’ll note he’s now apparently got three out of the four talents necessary to do this. He plays hellacious defense, apparently he can hit the three now (go figure), and in the last 3-4 games he’s suddenly pulled the previously utterly nonexistent driving floater/mid-range game out of his ass.
All he needs to do now (outside of showing that the latter two aren’t mirages) is learn to distribute better; i.e., floor manage.
At full health, the playoff rotation would have to go to 10 for Bogie to even be in it, and that’s with Deuce out.
JB, Julius, OG, DDV, Center 1, Center 2, Burks, Josh Hart, Precious.
Bogie is very possibly this team’s 11th man.
I don’t think you want to play Precious’s non-shooting in the playoffs. Bojan makes more sense to provide the 2nd unit with a viable offense.
Deuce/Burks/Hart/Precious/iHart doesn’t strike me as a winning combo. Everybody gets double or triple teamed and those guys aren’t going to beat it like Brunson kinda, sorta can.
If we learned anything from last year, having extra players in the playoffs isn’t a bad thing either.
Me either, but I’m not the coach. In any event, 10-deep playoff rotations are rare, and not just with Thibs.
I’d expect the “second unit” to be Burks/Josh Hart/C2/Precious/Either JB or Julius. I wouldn’t expect an “all-bench” second unit.
Of course, all this is health-dependent.
I think it’s probably good to have some different skillsets too.
Agree, but I never said that having insurance was a bad thing or that Bojan is not capable. I was simply stating that the insurance premium Leon paid was very expensive. I would be OK sacrificing Grimes for an all in title championship or bust run but not sure I would have done it for EC finals run?
I don’t think Precious will be in any version of the playoff rotation barring injury or foul trouble, and maybe a particularly bad matchup for our defense. He just isn’t that viable next to Hart and a C.
If Bojan is out of the rotation it’ll likely be an 8-man rotation with Burks/Hart/center.
That’s what I was thinking, too, but I suppose you could use a Donte/Hart backcourt when Brunson needs to rest while running the offense through Bojan. That seemed to be what we were doing last night in the 4th.
Then our 8 man rotation would be Hart/Bojan/Center, with Burks on standby as the 9th man.
Obviously our big 3 right now is Brunson, OG and Julius. Let’s assume for the moment that Brunson and OG are 100% going into the playoffs, because without them, our goose is pretty much cooked. From there, it becomes very hard to prognosticate about outcomes without knowing the status of all 3 of Julius, Mitch and iHart. If Julius is either not available or significanty compromised, we shouldn’t expect to get very far beyond the first round no matter what. I guess you could get by with only one of Mitch or iHart, but that definitely hurts the second unit and ups the chances that whichever one is healthy will be ground into dust well before the end of the second round. I think Bojan and Burks helps with depth, but it’s hard to know just how much unless OG, Julius, and one of iHart or Mitch are back.
10-15 minutes of Burks/Bojan/Hart/[1 of Mitch/iHart] can be filled in around with any one of our non-C starters without much of a drop-off from our actual starting lineup. You can then mix in Deuce and Precious situationally.
But if one of iHart or Mitch is out, then the domino effect is going to put Precious (or Sims, god help us!) in a much bigger role than he is cut out for. That’s probably my biggest non Big-3 concern going forward.
say it ain’t so, jon stewart back on the daily show…
man, looks like i picked a bad week to quit following the news…
That definitely seemed to work better than running it through Burks. If we’re going to play Bojan, we really ought to run the offense through him otherwise we give up too much on defense.
To the anti-trade crowd’s credit, the team has been terrible on defense when he plays. I just don’t think it’ll be a big issue when iHart/Mitch come back. We aren’t going to get killed on the boards or in the paint like we did when Bojan played last night.
fwiw, I think Bojan will definitely be in the playoff rotation even if everyone is healthy. The dude is just too lethal of a scorer/floor spacer to not play at all.
i like this strategy of projecting in to the future (playoffs) and away from focusing on the present…
we got hosed last night…everybody is hurt or ready to be injured even more…
and, to make matters worse – our next game is against the magic, who for whatever reason just got our number…
we seem to have all now gracefully departed from the whole: we are now kings of the league vision of the season…
probably the only individual not miserable right now is precious…lots and lots of court time for precious…
i like precious, looking forward though to watching him sit on the bench when the team is back together again…
gracefully?
I like Precious, too. I wonder what it’s going to cost to keep him this summer.
I guess we’ll see what the full strength rotations will be…but this team’s foundation is defense, rebounding (specificly foused offensive rebounding) and low turnovers.
Thibs believes this to his core so when deciding to chose between half court playmaking and shooting vs defense and rebounding…the decision is a no-brainer. I would think that this is not even debatable for anyone that knows Thibs but time will tell, I guess.
Bojan can play a legit stretch 4. You can play him with Precious if need be.
For all of Thibs’ prioritization of defense and rebounding, he’ll make room for a lone iso scorer on the floor even if they’re a negative on defense. Brunson, Zach Lavine, even Nate Robinson. We’ll see more of Bojan as the #1 option on offense with bench lineups.
“Thibs believes this to his core so when deciding to chose between half court playmaking and shooting vs defense and rebounding…the decision is a no-brainer. I would think that this is not even debatable for anyone that knows Thibs but time will tell, I guess.”
Yeah, but Thibs also has a starting lineup of Julius, RJ and Brunson for all of 2022-23 and half of 2023-24. He also had Obi in his playoff rotation (17mpg vs. Cavs, 14MPG vs. Heat). None of these guys are plus defenders and only Julius is a plus rebounder.
The interesting thing about last night was seeing the Donte/Hart backcourt work with Bojan. I had assumed Point Burks would be the plan when Brunson went to the bench, but if you put OG or Randle with that trio Brunson can get a reasonably long rest without things falling to shit.
Poor RJ. A mediocre box score but a minus 30!
IQ had a bad box score (2-12) and a minus 24.
(In a game they lost by 9.)
Not really working out for the lads… yet…
IQ so far in Toronto
40 FG %
42 % from 3- very good
+/- [- 112]
Wow, the Pistons might not even end the season with the league’s worst record.
I’m not sure what’s going on with IQ in Toronto, but I don’t think he’s playing as well as he did when he played with the starters in NY.
It seems they are trying to turn him into more of a pure PG. I don’t think that’s what he is. In fact, more so in previous years than this year, I used to argue that NY was making a mistake playing him at PG at all because I thought he was better off the ball. Maybe he’s having some growing pains, but I really do think he was shocked by the trade, wanted and expected to stay in NY and is not not at all happy in Toronto no matter what he says publicly.
It would not totally shock me if he winds up somewhere else eventually.
Divo and I-Hart are both questionable tomorrow. Sounds like we may punt at least one game.
I’m far from expert on the matter, but I think playing a lot of minutes at a professional level puts a mild strain on muscles, tendons and ligaments etc.. If done quickly and repeatedly, the body doesn’t have enough time for a recovery period. That’s what eventually makes you more vulnerable to injury. It’s probably an individual thing though. Some guys can handle way more without much impact than others. I know that’s what trainers say about training horses. You have to give them a good recovery period after a really tough race or eventually they’ll break down on you. But some thrive on the hard work and others can’t handle it at all.
Thibs’ Valentine for Brunson, Burks, Hart and Precious will be 48 minutes apiece!
24 for Sims (and 24 for Bojan)
Please don’t include me in the anti-trade crowd even though I know I’m coming off that way.
I know why they made the trade and understand the thinking.
I’m more in the anti over the top pronouncements from basketball pundits that the Knicks won the day and this move made them serious contenders. I don’t agree with that.
I think they are overrating Bojan and Burks and underrating Grimes in terms of contribution to winning because scorers tend to be overrated relative to defenders. Maybe on a net basis we are better, but I don’t think it’s by a huge amount and the benefit is mostly short term instead of long term.
Their SRS is ‘only’ 28th. For a while I think their expected win total was double their actual win total.
Didn’t have anyone particular in mind, just noting that his defense may in fact be fatal to his value
I bet Thibs goes:
Brunson 42 mins
Hart 45 mins
Bojan 40 mins
Achiuwa 42 mins
Sims 35 mins
Burks 26 mins
McBride 5 mins
Taj 5 mins
I agree with Strat about the trade. But we probably still had to do it. I think it was a great trade for Detroit. They don’t need wins this year and they traded away older players who weren’t part of their long term plans and who might give them more victories than they want in return for a young two way player.
Yeah, that’s why I was surprised to see Detroit get so much shit for the trade, as I would definitely prefer Grimes to a late 2024 first. I get the Knicks’ side of the deal, to be sure, but I thought Grimes was a great pickup for Detroit.
Apparently we’ve filed an official protest of the Rockets game.
The last one to be upheld was in 2007.
Knicks filed a protest in 1998 when the refs waved off Allan Houston’s putback at the buzzer that should’ve counted and would’ve turned a 1 pt loss into a 1 pt win at Miami. They of course lost the protest but got their revenge in the playoffs.
I read that a protest can only win if it was a misapplication of the rules, not just a bad call.
One thing I didn’t get yesterday was that they ended the game with like 0.1 or 0.2 on the clock. Shouldn’t the Knicks have been allowed to inbound the ball for a tap in? Could they use the technicality on the protest call? I am sure they will lose, just thinking of their angle.
solution is to put all replay challenges in the hands of the refs (or remote ref) for the last 30 seconds (or so) of the game…
great call, next question
What killed me is that they could check the video to see if the shot got off in time but while they were there they couldn’t reverse the call they knew they got wrong.
If this is true, then isn’t the obvious way to maximize the minutes of your good players to rotate them in and out for individual possessions? But, instead, coaches time their star players rests with quarter breaks to give them longer time off their feet. Seems antithetical to the “standing rest” theory.
But they would definitely abuse that. It already takes them like 5 minutes just to see who touched every ball last.
Maybe just give coaches 3 or 4 special challenges they can use throughout the year.
Yeah, you can’t have 20,000 people in the stands and hundreds of thousands tuning in from afar get their entertainment from refs watching TV with headphones on for extended periods of crunch time. There are way more important things than getting the call right every time.
You said that tongue in cheek but it’s true.
Maybe one out 50,000 plays in the last two minutes is as important as the one last night. We don’t need them reviewing all 50,000 at 5 minutes a clip just to avoid messing up the 1.
Givony on ESPN explaining how deep this draft is shaping up to be. It’s only a “bad draft” if you’re in the top 10. Gonna be a good draft for us.
The biggest change I would make to challenges and replays is what Hubs just referred to. It’s so dumb that only one aspect of a call can be challenged and not the whole play itself. Like if a coach is using a challenge and stopping the action to review a play then the entire play should be reviewed. The idea that you can’t be incorrect about another aspect of the play and call is beyond dumb. Get the right call. I also think coaches challenges should be separate from time outs (or is that just football).
By rule, once the ball bounces off of the rim, 0.3 seconds comes off the clock on the rebound, so once Holiday successfully intentionally missed the free throw, the game was officially over.
This was a rare case of my tongue not being in my cheek. I think it’s very bad tv to have players standing around doing nothing while refs zoom with secaucus. I’d rather watch them blow calls.
Whoa, I just realized that Sabonis isn’t an all star this year. That’s crazy. He’d maybe be the #1 player on the East team this year. Banchero? Bam? Brown? Randle? That’s just unfair.
“I think it’s very bad tv to have players standing around doing nothing while refs zoom with secaucus. I’d rather watch them blow calls.”
I couldn’t disagree more. Get the call right and let the players decide the game.
And I say that as a general statement, not about this game. As I’ve said, I don’t think the bad call was what lost the game for the Knicks, for several reasons. Brunson should have known better than to jump out to challenge a heave like that. And even though Malloy changed his tune, I think it was easier to have done so after the fact than if it had been if the call was reviewed in the moment. There absolutely was contact and I thought it was a foul. (OTOH I thought that DDV was fouled earlier on a call that was overturned. I didn’t buy the “unnatural shooting motion” explanation…when you are pulling up going left, it’s natural for your right leg to kick out.)
What I took from this is that I don’t like the rule about if you lose the first challenge in the first half, you don’t get another one in the second half. But since that is the current rule, it underscores that you shouldn’t challenge a call unless you are 100% sure it will be overturned, and even then, unless it will 100% have an impact on the outcome of the game. I think that is hardly ever the case in the first half, and probably not until the last 2 minutes. So it was dumb for Thibs to put his last 2 minutes challenge at risk on a meaningless first half challenge, given the dumb rule.
But I also think that refs should have more replay discretion than they do. I have no problem with waiting a minute or two for a correct call, especially when the call will determine the outcome of a game. I like that in football, every scoring play and turnover is automatically reviewed. Obviously basketball is different, but imho the error/inconvenience should always be in favor of letting the players decide the game.
Lol I could have sworn…