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166 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2024.02.01)”
“Brian Cronin says:
February 1, 2024 at 00:53
Is Hali playing?”
He played in Indy’s last game vs. BOS on a minutes restriction, so he will probably play but maybe still be on that restriction. They have a back-to-back with travel vs. SAC at home, so my guess is that Hali would prefer to play against the conference rival Knicks and rest vs. the Kings if that’s the choice.
Our winning ways have raised expectations, but as far as our ceiling in the EC standings goes, this stretch, both before and after the all-star break, is going to be very telling.
This starts with tonight’s game. Hali is at best on a minutes restriction but he looked pretty good vs. BOS in the second half before hitting his limit. The Pacers are a tough matchup and it will probably be a battle of contrasting styles more than anything else…meaning we need to keep the pace down and the scoring low.
I think it is one of the most important games of this stretch IF we want to finish as a top 2-3 seed. Indiana has a road-heavy but otherwise easy schedule for the rest of February, while our schedule toughens up. And Indy has no more games vs. BOS, PHI or MIL for the rest of the season!
I suspect Thibs is aware of this and will treat this game accordingly. Expect heavy minutes from the starters, whoever they are.
Damn, the Blazers beat the Bucks (after just beating the 76ers). We’re one game back of 2nd in the East.
Looking at the rest of our schedule, we have BOS X2, PHI X3, and IND X2, plus one game each vs. MIL, CLE and MIA. That’s 10 of our remaining 34 games.
This meteoric rise demands we make one more move before the deadline. We must have someone who can play backup PG minutes in the playoffs. My guess is we’ll acquire either Brogdon or Brown to round out the rotation.
Following up on the 16-0 January prediction that came within one Brunson injury and 5 points of fruition…
February features a very tough run. I’m going with 8-4 for the month, a trade for Bruce Brown, plus good news on Mitchell Robinson’s reevaluation.
This Indiana game feels like a very difficult match-up for us, they’re a team that scores in such high volume and play with so much pace that I think it will be hard to defend them, and without Randle we lose what should be out best weapon against them match-up wise.
If OG doesn’t play I think this is likely a loss, but let’s see, this team continues to surprise us so it should be a good game.
For now, both OG (elbow inflammation) and Grimes (right knee sprain) are questionable for tonight.
Is Fournier still on the team?
Re: the Randle injury, the contrast between Precious and Julius on the defensive end is pretty stark, both in terms of length and motor. Even if OG is out, having Precious on Siakam/Obi should help a lot on the defensive end if we can slow the game down at least somewhat.
Next 2 games the opposing PFs are Siakam and LeBron, if OG is out these games become a matchup nightmare.
Christ, you pessimists. Haven’t y’all been paying attention? It is obvious what’s going to happen tonight. OG will not play, and the Knicks will win by double digits.
Doogie’s Top 10 Teams through January:
1. Celtics
2. Thunder
3. Clippers
4. Sixers
5. Knicks
6. Wolves
7. Cavs
8. Bucks
9. Nuggets
10. Pelicans
Doogie’s Bottom 10 Teams through January:
30. Hornets
29. Pistons
28. Wizards
27. Spurs
26. Blazers
25. Grizzlies
24. Hawks
23. Jazz
22. Raptors
21. Bulls
Doogie’s Top 10 MVP Candidates through January:
1. Jokic
2. Tatum
3. SGA
4. Giannis
5. Hali
6. Embiid
7. Ant-Man
8. Jaylen Brown
9. Donovan Mitchell
10. Zion
Discuss. Or don’t.
Having a PF who actually tries to get back on defense might be a good thing against Indy
Doogie, Luka not in the top 10 but Jaylen and Zion are? Surely an editing error.
Going into the games vs Denver and Miami there was talk about those 2 games being season defining and we beat the crap out of both of them
This winning streak won’t last forever, and Indy is a tough matchup (especially if OG is still out) but underestimate this team at your own risk.
It’s not an editing error, but is possibly one of judgment. 🙂 It seems that I put a premium on team success (e.g., the only player I have in my Top 10 MVP candidates who is not on one of my Top 10 teams is Hali; also, I guess I think that the Celtics as my overall best team might deserve two MVP candidates).
I feel like Indiana has become a little overrated, perhaps because of the IST? Their offense is obviously great, but their defense is awful (5th worst defensive rating, just above the Wizards). Even a depleted Knicks should make it a game.
It’s annoying that the Knicks having the hardest schedule in the Conference because of the extra games against the Celtics and Bucks might really affect seeding given how close NY, Cleveland, Philly and Milwaukee could finish.
What is the IST? I mean, what does the acronym “IST” represent in this context? (I totally agree about the extra games versus the Celtics and Bucks, especially those against the Celtics. That could potentially be quite unfortunate.)
SGA is MVP for me.
Boston’s entire starting lineup should probably be voted co-MVPs. They’re ridiculous, but none are individually good enough for me to put them #1. I’m not sure I’d even have Brown 2… or 3. Hell, KP might be 1.
Zion has obviously been good, but MVP good seems like a stretch.
I’d take Hali off the list, he’s missed almost 30% of their games so far. They didn’t miss him as much as you’d think.
IST = In-Season Tournament
A little shaky on the MVP list, Doogie. I think Brown might be the 4th most valuable Celtic. And Zion is perplexing.
Have you heard of this guy named Brunson? Plays for the Knicks. 😉
For MVP I’d probably go
1. Jokic
2. SGA
3. Embiid
4. Leonard
5. Giannis
6. DiVincenzo
Interesting moment on Macri’s podcast this morning, where he asked Ian Begley why he thinks the Knicks don’t seem hugely interested in Brogdon. Ian paused for a very long time before coming up with some half-hearted thing about how Thibs prefers guys he’s comfortable/familiar with, and that Burks (as a guy who’s played for Thibs) and Brown (as a classic Thibs kind of guy) fit that mold more. It may be that he was just gathering his thoughts, but that’s not how it came across to me. Like there’s something off-putting about Brogdon that he didn’t feel like he could say publicly.
Damnit, Hubert, don’t you know how jinxes work?
Yes, I figured that I’d get pushback on Zion, possibly deservedly so. But he’s played big in games against superior opponents (witness his 33/8 on 11-of-12 shooting against the Sixers, although admittedly that was a while back now). I’d love for Brunson to work his way up on my list, and Julius’ absence might help in that regard. I think that Randle and Brunson might have a little bit of that thing going on where they split being the MVP of their own team, thus making it more difficult to reach league MVP levels. (Cue argument against Tatum and Brown again. 🙂 )
I also note that Kawhi, PG-13, and Harden are stealing votes from each other, and the Clippers are my only other team in my Top 10 that do not have an MVP candidate (for me).
Re: Brogdon, he made it clear in a recent interview that he really likes Portland because he’s “valued here. Valued in this leadership/lead-guard role.”
That makes me think he wants to start for ego/contract reasons, and that ain’t gonna work on this Knicks team, especially with MVP DEVO going off.
The Brogdon thing is weird bc it’s clear he’d be great for us and we probably could have had him a week ago if we wanted him.
I doubt there is anything wrong with Brogdon that people don’t want to discuss. Rather — and I know you’ll hate to hear this — this is probably an instance of E being right, i.e. Brogdon is great but he isn’t a “Thibs-kind-of-player”.
So, like Begley said, we’ll end up with an inferior player who Thibs trusts like Brown or Burks instead of the best player available.
Leon has learned enough times that you don’t give Thibs the guy he doesn’t want. There is a bully element at play, I’m sure. If you give Thibs Brogdon and he wanted Brown, Brogdon will be in the doghouse after his second missed defensive assignment.
Zion is a country mile away from being a legit MVP candidate. If he weren’t a galactically overhyped #1 pick, no one would even be talking about him as anything above a fringe all-star.
I also said we’d beat Denver, blow out Miami, and win the Charlotte and Utah games by double digits. Have a little faith.
And Thibs maintains his influence by winning in the regular season and then Leon does not properly bifurcate the playoffs and the regular season in his performance reviews. I would.
Zion is really good but not generational. I will buy that.
I am surprised how bad he is defensively. Hard to be a top 5 guy as a one way player.
Dammit Hubert, you just doomed this thread )-:
Thibs would have earned pretty high marks from me for the team’s performance in last year’s playoffs, E.
And the one thing I left out in the part about you possibly being right about the reason we’re not going after Brogdon is that Thibs might actually be right about not wanting him.
And also I was completely guessing. We might end up with Brogdon in 3 days.
So I’d hold off the victory dance for now. If we trade Grimes and a first for Alec Burks and start playing him at PG, then you can feel a little righteous.
Boy he showed up quickly, too, didn’t he? It’s like saying Beetlejuice three times!
I don’t think SGA is getting enough MVP love from the media.
So, the draft is now going to be 2 days. Do we really need a whole day dedicated to the 2nd Rd?
If there’s anything to the Thibs regular season vs. playoff discussion it’s that Thibs seems to place more value on winning regular season games than some other coaches. I think he’s trying to create a culture of hard work, a winning attitude and to get favorable playoff positioning (home court) etc.. Some other teams are resting players and experimenting a little. They up the energy, intensity and shorten the rotation down the stretch and into playoffs. If there’s anything at all to it, it’s not that Thibs teams decline. It’s that some of the other teams step it up.
Embiid is my choice for MVP—I think he’s clearly been the most productive player in the league this year—but it’s a two horse race between him and SGA. They’ve been better than everyone else in the league by a fair margin. I think SGA might get it for novelty/narrative reasons.
It’s a weird year for MVP because Embiid might not hit the games played necessary, Giannis and Jokic are not having their best years and Luka, who is indeed having his best year, plays on a bad team and that will keep him from real consideration.
If the Thunder keeps a top 2 seed I think SGA will win it kinda by default, but I have a hard time believing he’s better than the other 4 guys I mentioned.
Maybe Brogdon doesn’t want to play for Thibs????
Zach Lowe has both Brunson and Randle as his personal all star picks and has this to say about Randle;
See
https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/insider/story/_/id/39429439/nba-all-star-ballot-zach-lowe-makes-2024-picks
When I think about MVP, I think about both how good is the team with the player and how good they are without the player. An MVP should make a big difference. That’s kind of the dictionary definition of valuable. I recall Philadelphia has done very badly when Embiid is out so I lean towards him as MVP.
That’s exactly it, but that winds up being a relative decline.
To take one example, Denver didn’t give a single F about the game in MSG a week or two ago. They’d been away from home for like two weeks, probably (deservingly) lived it up in NYC the night before and were counting down the minutes before they could get on the private bird and get home.
There is exactly zero chance that Michael Malone is going to get in the way of that and call the boys in for a big long film breakdown of the specifics of the Knicks’ tendencies and whatnot.
Come playoff time, obviously Denver will care a lot and there will be all manner of mandatory film and prep work by both coaches and players, all of whom will avidly participate.
That’s the reality of life in the association, Thibs’s chafing and internal fuming aside.
Since Brogdon could help a lot of teams and none of them have traded for him, the only logical deduction is that all their coaches hate him.
E, do you like Thibs and think he’s a good playoff coach? It would be fascinating to hear your opinion
I would bet Randle being hurt significantly improves his AS chances. He’s probably not an all-star caliber guy, but he’s certainly close enough and you can put him in now knowing he’s not going to play and you get to pick another guy.
Embiid is having the most productive season on court, but the other MVP candidates (Jokic, SGA, Giannis) have like 450 more minutes than him (and counting), and there’s no way he makes the games played threshold. He’s not going to win.
I am leaning towards him getting the nod and then being immediately replaced. My one reservation is something Macri pointed out this morning: Adam Silver, not the coaches, gets to pick the injury replacements. So if the coaches are worried that, say, Silver might put Trae Young on the team over a Banchero or a Bam or whomever, they might just pick the guy they want now, since Randle’s not going to play under any circumstance.
reference julius, i’m not concerned so much that his game will age well…if anything he’ll just get stronger and more composed…maybe even shoot better…
i am starting to wonder if his physical style of play may end up costing him five or six years off his career in terms of peak performance…
I’m guessing most guys will vote on principle rather than sneaking an extra player in, but who knows.
Obviously we should all hope he doesn’t get votes, thus saving $1.378M against the cap next year
My one reservation is something Macri pointed out this morning: Adam Silver, not the coaches, gets to pick the injury replacements.
Since that is the case, and according to MSG Silver is in Toronto’s pocket…RJ Barrett, All Star.
Logic to snark ratio comes in at very low 1:8.
There aren’t a lot of teams with a screaming need for a backup PG, who are actively shopping for a backup PG, and who can easily meet Portland’s asking price.
https://twitter.com/NBA_NewYork/status/1752891356995854377
Who are the good players Thibs refused to play because they weren’t one of his guys?
I would give it to Jokic again. Clearly best player in the league.
There’s a great segment on the Thinking Basketball podcast on the Knicks rebounding (some other fun but kinda uninformed Knick stuff; they suggest playing iHart & Mitch together). They talk about how disciplined they are about rebounding (because of course Thibs would is) and, specifically, mention tagging up and boxing-in as strategies they employ.
Tagging up is almost literally running to your defender and tagging him. Being that close helps create 50-50 balls the Knicks (Josh Hart) can come away with. Also, by staying behind the opponent instead of in front, you have better transition defense.
Boxing-in is the opposite of boxing out, where the C pushes the opposing player towards the basket. This is viable because the increase in 3s create longer caroms. By pushing in instead of out, you get to grab a board that goes over the opponent’s head. On top of that, it creates space for perimeter players (Josh Hart) to race their man to the ball. It’s kinda obvious, after being pointed out, how often I remember Mitch moving his man from behind.
Since a certain postEr is already here, I’ll mention that they do question if the strategy will be as effective in the playoffs. More generally, they question the Knick reliance on open 3s after an offensive board, which they say is the most efficient play in basketball. Of course, they were still the best ORB% team in the postseason so it’s probably idle speculation rather than informed research.
Here’s the link:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/3J5fxOpYwUchaEGmI3e84x?si=iKIY7V78Rl-iEshkYZ0ijg
Rebounding around 26min
If Oklahoma wins 55+ games this year the MVP has to be Shai Gilgeous-Alexander. He’s been phenomenal, and will have carried a rebuilding team into contention solely on his own greatness. Can’t out MVP that.
I’d rather save for a superstar than make a move for Brogdon. What playoff team do we beat with him vs without?
Is Brogdon even better than Donte right now? Addressing Es likely response, Brog’s playoff BPM is worse than Donte’s.
@cybersoze:
Little-known fact: I interned in Bill Bradley’s Senate office in the fall of 1984, and worked on his re-election campaign that same year. If I recall correctly, he won with 65 percent of the vote that year, but I’m taking credit for exactly 0 percent of that.
He’s definitely an impressive man, and definitely a tall man.
P.S. I majored in political science.
I find the claim that certain teams don’t try as hard in the regular season only to turn it on in the post season to be very dubious.
Denver. Yes, I think you could argue they were exhausted and gave up early in that game but do you know for a fact they didn’t give a shit or they went out partying the night before?
So Minnesota…a team that hasn’t been to the playoffs in ages and is full of young players with little to no playoff experience…they’re just coasting through certain games cause they don’t care about seeding?
Miami wasn’t an 8 seed last year bc they didn’t care about the regular season. Why would they risk possibly NOT making the playoffs by coasting? They were an 8th seed bc they struggled with injuries. And then this year, they are not an 8th seed. So are they trying harder now than they did last year and if so, why?
Boston is on pace to win like 60 games. So if they’re coasting could then conceivably win 70 games if they tried? Are they that good?
Denver last year had never won a title. Were they so confident they could go far in the playoffs, having never made it to the finals, that they coasted certain games last season?
If you look at the minutes allocations for most of the good teams, they’re also not going more than 10 deep most nights and the 9th and 10th dudes in their rotations aren’t getting a lot of minutes.
The teams with stars play their stars just as many minutes as we do.
Seeding matters to everyone, not just The Knicks. CErtain games teams might give up bc it’s a back to back or end of a long road trip and certain older players like Lebron might “coast” a bit in the regular season, but teams are not coasting during the regular season only to turn it on. Look at how close the standings are from like the 5th to the 10th seed. Why would any team trying to make the playoffs nad make noise in the playoffs risk “coasting”?
Gotta admit, E was right that Cam Reddish would thrive without that dastardly Thibs.
I think if we don’t get Brogdon it will be because Portland wanted a lot for a guy on the older side with a sketchy medical history in the midst of his worst ever shooting season from 2PT land.
He’s definitely still got some important skills we could use, but caution here is plenty warranted.
Reading the tea leaves, my stab in the dark is that we wind up with Brown and Burks. I still like the D’Lo idea but there’s been silence on that front when it comes to us.
Brown’s fit is definitely clearer without Randle and he’s a solid enough player that getting him without giving up anyone of consequence makes us better, but since I think we largely like him due to his contract I really don’t want to give up much of anything for him. Maybe the worst of our protected picks would be fine.
With the recent injury scare to Grimes and the IQ injury during the playoffs you can never have enough healthy decent wing players so I have no problem adding someone like Brown and Burks if not both.
This is a fabricated dilemma.
He definitely is not.
But he is a lot better than Deuce McBride and Quentin Grimes, at that is the position we need to upgrade before the deadline.
We’re going to play 8 men in the playoffs.
– Precious will backup iHart (unless Mitch comes back, of course)
– Hart will back up 3 positions.
– someone needs to back up Brunson.
My guess is we’re going to trade for that guy in the next week bc it really can’t be Deuce.
Brown and Brogdon seem like the obvious candidates.
I think it would be very helpful to have Brogdon be the backup bc he adds critical insurance in case Donte goes cold or Hart gets the yips again like he did against Miami.
If someone makes a specious argument, is it really necessary to refute it over and over again? I think it bogs down otherwise interesting discussions. Some people make good observations that barely get any mention.
Wrong question.
The right question is who are the players we didn’t sign, draft, or trade for bc they weren’t Thibs guys.
It’s a pretty long list, but then we’ll get sidetracked by your snarky straw man.
If your argument is that Thibs doesn’t have a type and that’s a hill you want to die on, be my guest.
Ok. Who are the players we didn’t sign, draft, or trade for bc they weren’t Thibs guys?
I think this is because the Lakers have such a lousy lineup outside LeBron and Davis that Reddish is their best option for his position and so he gets a lot of minutes.
Like I said, not gonna get sidetracked with snarky straw men arguments.
I suggested that Thibs likes Brown over Brogdon bc that’s his type of player.
If you require a list of specific players that Thibs didn’t like in order to accept that he has a type, I’ll just move on.
And we know this because of guys we didn’t draft? Come on. Can we be realistic?
Vaguely sourced rumblings of some kind of Grimes-for-Eason trade are out there in the series of tubes…
I’d rather have the extra pick in case it’s the deciding factor in acquiring a superstar, whoever that is.
There’s also been a number of teams who seemingly want young prospects on top of the picks. In most trade scenarios we’re sending out Grimes and the DAL pick who theoretically turns into a player this year.
I just don’t think that’s worth it for a guy who might get 8mpg behind Brunson in the playoffs. With the way Donte is playing, he could get the Brunson treatment too.
Also, Cam’s advanced stats with Lakers are worse than they were with the Knicks and his overall shooting stats aren’t very good.
This does not make much sense to me, unless we have another trade in line for a guard.
I wanted the Knicks to draft Eason, but it makes me uneasy to let go of one of the few Knicks drafted players in the team. I had Grimes in very high esteem, and although this season has been disappointing, I believe he still will be good.
I guess Hart plays more 2 in this scenario?
Hart & Eason on the same unit will struggle shooting.
OG & Tari might address the metagame better when we need to defend Brown/Tatum in the playoffs (plus Kawhi/PG/Harden or SGA/Jalen when we make the finals). That’s a frightening defense.
I assume Thibs guys are players who don’t have alot of talent but hustle alot so Thibs gives them alot of unwarranted mins, you know players like RJ and Randle…
I wouldn’t mind if they gave it to SGA. The addition of Holmgren seems to have made a huge impact though.
Excited to see Obi. It’s amazing how after a rough start he has been exactly who we thought he was.
Grimes for Tari makes sense in a vacuum but it would really have to be something we do while also adding a decent guard
Wow, that must’ve been a wonderful experience! 😉
Eason is a higher upside player than Grimes in my opinion. The guy is built like a brick shithouse, he’s a swole 6’8” with long arms and serious grown man strength. Much like OG he is a very effective switchable defender. You could easily see all-defense teams in his future.
It’d be an interesting move swapping him for Grimes. On the one hand you’d miss Grimes’ spacing but on the other hand maybe you acquire another guard who can initiate offense (Brogdon et al) and use McBride in the Grimes role.
You could play an awfully stifling brand of defense with OG-Tari-iHart in the front court. Maybe we’re doing the new market inefficiency thing here and building a defense so good it can actually reliably stop modern offenses.
I’m intrigued.
If Deuce falters, we should just stagger and increase Div0 and Brunson’s minutes in the playoffs. His and Grimes defense has been outstanding, and the team chemistry is perfect.
I think it is worth trading one of our late picks for a backup PG like Brogdon or Brown.
For one thing, that guy may only get 8-10 mpg in the playoffs but he’ll get plenty of minutes now and that could really help our seeding.
Secondly, those 8 mins can be critical. Brunson played 94 out of 96 mins in games 5 & 6 vs Miami and our season ended bc the Heat went on a 10-0 run during the 2 mins he sat.
I just think this team is way too good to go into the postseason with Deuce as the backup PG.
Agree with the initial impressions of others: Grimes for Eason straight up would be a win for us–Eason is a really intriguing young player and is a great backup wing to have around, especially since Randle is out. But we would also have to acquire a guard–someone like Burks, Bogdan, D’Lo–in order to shore up the spacing on the second unit. Get it done!
If we get Burks it’s to play PG again? I don’t remember the PG-Burks experience as a successful one.
Yeah, it definitely improves us and could be worth it with how well we’ve played. I wouldn’t be mad. I just prefer a budget option if one is available.
It does seem stupid that we aren’t inquiring about Brogdon unless there’s an unknown issue with him.
Is any of it from one of your ITKs?
Bc it seems to me that David Vertersberger started a rumor and the internet is just running with it.
It wasn’t particularly successful, but I don’t think it was as terrible as people allege. The main issue was that we had IQ on the roster and IQ should’ve been starting.
Burks isn’t perfect but he gives the 2nd unit a player who can drive, kick, and defend the wing next to Deuce.
Oh so there has been a good player on the Knicks who Thibs didn’t play enough.
It’s not just lol Cam Reddish?
Coby White, anyone?
Also…….the Wizards are *very* ripe for the picking. Deni Avdija? Or as a consolation prize, Corey Kispert or Bilal Coulibaly? I think that neither of those two guys would cost very much.
Things have been going way too well so my predictions for the night:
-40 point loss
-Hali goes for 40 pts/20 ast on 120% TS with 0 turnovers
-NBA voids OG trade
-Brunson tears both ACLs
He seems perfectly cromulent, but isn’t he the type of player that Chicago should be hanging to? Trade veterans, keep the young pieces, and if they are thinking the opposite, we are not giving them a win-now player.
EDIT: Also, not for Grimes
And lo and behold, he always played hard and was widely regarded as a good defender. Meanwhile, RJ Barret got infinite minutes and shots.
Sarcasm on the internet: not even once.
Cam is not thriving despite being freed from Thibs’ tyranny, he is vindicating said tyranny.
I would definitely swap Grimes for Eason. Eason is already an elite defender per DEPM and there’s a lot to work with on offense. We need a backup wing/big more than we need guard depth, which we’ll likely be supplementing anyway. However I agree with Hubert that this one doesn’t seem to have a lot of legs.
The Grimes-for-Griffin swap seems more likely to me.
Hahaha! I think it was our best month since… 1994! NBA Finals, here we go! 😀
I think the process of granting portuguese citizenship to sefardic jews has had some problems, mainly because Russia invaded Ukraine and so people noticed that some prominent russians were wandering europe with no restraints on a portuguese passport. Not our best moment. But since then i guess they’re re-evaluating how to properly check the sefardic ancestry. We’re kind of a slow country, one hand has to ask the other for permission to move, as we use to say. 😀
I’d prefer swinging a little higher (Ivey, Matheson, e.g.) but trading for Eason does in fact accomplish (one of) my stated objective(s) of trying to get “back in” to one of the past couple drafts.
Also: Nice to see that Gallo can still put up 20 on 6-of-8 shooting (4-of-4 from 3). Raise your hand if you knew that he still had that in him.
Riley wouldn’t trade to the Knicks, but Josh Richardson is playing pretty well off the bench for the Heat.
I think that’s probably what’s happening, which is why I went with “vaguely sourced.” More as a fun thing to talk about than a thing I think has any chance of happening.
Eason would be an excellent pickup. He is a player I would actually be okay moving Grimes for.
We need to continue to make ceiling-raising trades over floor-raising ones. Grimes for Eason raises our ceiling, while Grimes for Brogdon, Brown, or Burks raises our floor.
I doubt the rebuilding Wizards are trading any of those guys. I read or listened to something that said Bilal is basically untouchable.
Avdija is finally shooting well but it’s on Josh Hart volume.
Not sure if this has been posted already, but here’s a great article by Dan Devine on our favorite soon-to-be all-star!
That’s Thibs. Thibs concerns himself with the floor rather than the celling by a factor of double digits to 1. (*)
We live in a litigious society to be sure, but relitigating the question of whether Thibs has distinct preferences and anti-preferences in personnel is … quite the thing. Kudos to all.
(*) Which is why the FO has to take that philosophical decision out of his hands but is unfortunately having a tough time doing so.
Lebron and AD not playing tonight in Boston..I would be very mad if I bought a ticket for that game
There is already a big discussion that I seen spreading over the media about the lack of player participation and people complaining about the 65 game rule
Mathurin has been garbage on both sides of the ball despite playing for a good team. He has the tools, but when someone underperforms by that much it raises a lot of questions. It was a concern coming out of college too.
A Pacers reporter said they used Hield to defend the PoA last year over Hali & Mathurin, which might be the most pathetic thing I’ve ever heard.
See I think our ceiling has already been raised dramatically, and it would be irresponsible to go into the playoffs with a gaping hole at backup PG.
We’re third in the East today. We could actually go on a run! I don’t want to have to turn to Deuce McBride for 6 minutes in game 2 of the conference finals.
Having Brogdon or Brown could be the difference between winning or losing a series.
The only thing that has raised the ceiling is Brunson being way better than the market thought during his FA and that’s pure happenstance, nothing philosophical.
That’s why I want him. I’m a ceiling raiser, not a floor raiser. I’ll gladly risk a lower floor for a higher ceiling. That, in lieu of plugging and eating your vegetables, is the path to the Larry O’B.
Finally, official word of a sort:
Sounds like sour grapes, E.
You know I didn’t think Leon could do it, either, but I’m not sitting here trying to discredit him for Brunson being better than anyone expected.
What kind of bullshit is that?
The only reason the Warriors were good is bc Steph, Klay, and Draymond turned out to be better than anyone thought, too. That’s how it goes, man.
So next update should come during the all star break
I am sure Thibs has personnel preferences, being a basketball coach and all. The relevant question is whether the Knicks have lost out on attainable, good NBA players that pass a basic cost-benefit analysis in terms of assets because of those preferences.
The “yes, they have” side made their case almost solely based on Cam Reddish for a long time. So…the case seems quite weak to me.
I mean, if we say the Knicks have passed on all these amazing mystery players because of Thibs’ preferences, don’t we have to say he’s also been the invisible hand behind the acquisitions of Brunson, DDV, iHart, and OG, all of whom have been uncontroversially great?
Or does the Thibs conspiracy posit that he merely has total veto power, but no affirmative influence?
We had this discussion roughly this time last year and I’ll repeat what I said then, which is that Leon gets full credit. I just don’t see it as a change in philosophy to ceiling-raising.
I think there’s a ceiling-raising contingent to the FO, which led to the Reddish trade and the Ivey and Eason rumors. There’s also a cod-liver-oil contingent — Thibs — and they fight things out and almost all the time Thibs wins, primarily because he wins in the regular season and keeps Dolan and therefore Leon happy.
But, as should be obvious now, I much favor ceiling-raising to hustlebunny-ism.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but do you remember the last time Deuce dribbled past a defender and finished?
The Incineration and the Hartcineration both have Thibs’s fingerprints all over them. When the DNA evidence found at the scene of the lottery pick for Isaiah Hartenstein transaction eventually comes back from the lab, expect it to match the DNA captured from the top of Thibs’s favorite Sanka cup.
I hate when teams say things like this. It really doesn’t tell us much about how long they expect him to be out. It just tells us that surgery is not on the table right now. It could be many weeks of rehab after that evaluation.
I didn’t mention Deuce, i’m in favor of upgrading the backup PG position. And i like Burks a lot, but not as a PG.
Thibs really likes…heavily protected picks from the Charlotte Hornets?
Well, I guess they expect to see some change in those 3 weeks, so it is worth looking at it again. It is totally possible that no change is seen and then they go for surgery, but at least it tells you that they are mildly optimistic about it not taking too long for recovery.
Most likely, he’s going to give it a shot after 5-6 weeks and pray that his shoulder doesn’t pop again. If it does pop again, he’ll be in surgery within three days.
But literally every ”hustlebunny” he’s acquired has raised our ceiling.
We were 7th in the East, we got Hart, went to 5th.
We got Donte & OG, we’re up to 3rd.
Why you mad, bro? Kawhi wasn’t available.
Burks wouldn’t be my ideal choice as Brunson’s backup, but I think the main issue with Point Burks back in the day was that he was our starting point guard, and his limitations as an initiator were badly exposed in that role. I think he could do just fine in the 8-10 minutes a night that Brunson sits, especially since he’d have one or more of Hart, DDV, and iHart on the floor with him, and all those guys are pretty good secondary playmakers. And size-wise, you could have Deuce defend the opposing PG while Burks is big enough to be placed on a wing.
I have other preferences — Brogdon most of all — and I’m not sure how we acquire Burks (who’s expiring) while also maintaining a big enough ongoing contract to use in a star trade this summer. Basketball fit-wise, though, it would be a substantial improvement over Deuce running the second unit.
Let me put it this way:
Eason is bigger, faster, longer, stronger, and outscored Mathurin by 6pts/40 in college.
Eason has a higher floor and a higher ceiling.
If we somehow managed to swap Grimes for Eason and Fournier + 1RP for Brogdon, our rotation would be good even with Randle and Mitch out.
Brunson/Brogdon + Divo/Deuce + OG/Hart + Achiuwa/Eason + Hartenstein/Sims
Early Bird,
That was a great. Thanks for posting it.
We disagree, but that’s why they play the games. I can’t begin to see how Josh Hart and Quentin Grimes “raised the team’s ceiling.” Those guys are quintessential floor-raisers.
That’s present performance, not ceiling. And it’s regular season, not playoffs.
They lost to an 8 seed in 6 last year. They lost to a 5 seed in 5 the other playoff year. That’s high-floor, low-ceiling stuff to a T.
Dude, we have raised the floor so much that it is touching the ceiling. Everytime we raise the floor again, we automatically push the ceiling up!
It’s not that they don’t care or don’t try.
For example.
Lebron and AD aren’t playing against Boston. If that was a critical game they’d be playing. Instead they are basically conceding a game they’d be an underdog in anyway and resting up for the Knicks at MSG where they are more likely to win. It’s probably better than 50-50 they play at MSG. That gives both players a chance to nurse minor injuries and may help in long run. Thibs would want those guys out there playing 38 minutes unless the medical staff said no.
Which is why we dumped a playoff loser like RJ Barrett
No, E made his case on Cam. And you guys conflate everyone you disagree with.
I’ve made my case on Quickley and all the no-brainer guys we passed on in the draft like Halliburton and Johnson.
Another big difference between me and E is that E sees RJ as a high ceiling guy whereas I see him as one of the Thibs guys. Thibs tolerated RJ being shit at basketball bc he was big and strong.
We traded Quickley for OG in a trade that has vaulted us to the top of the league so far. This is an example of damaging Thibs hemorrhage?
Haliburton and Johnson…I mean, what is the evidence that Thibs had total power over the 8th pick in the 2020 draft but not the 25th pick, and total power over the 19th pick in the 2021 draft but not any of the others?
If I didn’t know any better I would say the conspiracy serves the purpose of blaming Thibs for everything that goes wrong with the team while giving him no credit for anything that goes right!
Is he our primary decision maker, in which case he, and not Leon, should be executive of the year, or are we just looking at various moves we don’t like and saying Thibs had to be behind those specifically?
No, the three years he was here and was criminally underused bc he wasn’t the right physical type is the example.
Why are we still discussing Cam in any way?
He’s the only recent Knicks player whose development may have been more derailed by injuries than Frank’s.
He was playing hurt in just about every game he played for LA this year. He was in and out of the lineup constantly due to injury. IMO his career as it turned out should not be a discussion point for anything.
If anything, his play in LA is an argument in favor of him.
Over his career he was slowly improving on offense despite the constant injuries, missed games, and off season rehab. The problem was his low IQ shot selection and defense – which were both terrible.
But he showed good restraint in LA on offense and defended at a solid level. I still think there was a decent player there if he could have stayed healthy for a full season, worked on his game every off season, and stayed in check on offense. But he never stays healthy so he’ll probably be out of the NBA soon.
We passed on Hali for Obi, who isn’t exactly a Thibs player and probably qualified as a high-ceiling player out of college based on his athleticism and scoring.
Jalen Johnson plays like a Thibs guy. But based on his college record, they could’ve passed because he lacks the Thibs personality.
I’ve seen it all
Burks is shooting 38% from 2 and averages less than 3 assists per 36, and his rebound and steals numbers have been falling, he’s going to be out of the league in a year or two. But what he can do is get up 3s and make them and draw some FTs so he’s not useless. If you want to give up a protected 2 for him, sure, why not. He can jack up 3s for 8 minutes a night.
Hubert you’ve been banging the drum for more DDV play of late. Before Quickley was traded you were banging the drum for more Quickley play. I sympathize strongly with both impulses, but surely you realize that while both were on the team their minutes came at one another’s direct expense. So this was not an easy square to circle.
the floor/ceiling shit is just some pop basketball shorthand. It’s basically supposed to be describing types of high usage players. Someone like Randle (high usage, middling efficiency) is a floor raiser, because he can help you get to like a league averagish offense. A ceiling raising guy is someone who can be one of the main offensive engines on a like a 2 seed. Someone like Jalen Brunson.
Begley with slightly more detail:
Bc Noble thinks if he mentions Cam every time someone suggests Thibs has a type, he wins.
Maybe he’s declined too much since I last saw him, but supposedly he struggled back from injury earlier this year and it deflated his numbers — not that he’ll be much better anyway.
The 2nd unit has been better of late and I don’t think we should feel the urgency to trade that we previously did.
Burks for whatever reasons has never been good inside the arc except at getting fouled. He’s 32 and clearly in decline. He can’t run an offense, but he can create shots for himself and score fairly efficiently. And if he’s on a unit that plays good defense and can’t score he’d be okay. I’d try to hope Detroit buys him out. They’re going nowhere and his contract is expiring. But Detroit is really badly run so who the fuck knows
I am sure Thibs has a “type.” I have just not seen much in the way of evidence that we have foolishly lost on good players because they were not said “type.”
I guess the argument is that we have foolishly pursued certain players because they were said “type.” This argument rests pretty much entirely on the idea that trading the 23rd pick in the 2023 draft for Josh Hart, the third leading minutes getter on our team which has the 5th best net rating, was a Thibs inspired disaster.
I remain unconvinced!
Supposedly they plan to re-sign him next year
Well, the trade deadline is one week away, so the urgency is that we dont have much time to decide. As long as we believe that Randle will come back for the playoffs (and maybe even Mitch), we should look for reliable substitute for Brunson. We might have some chances in the offseason, and those bench minutes might be important.
Deuce has been playing very good, but he is not a ball handler, and he will be targeted in the playoffs. Our offense might go to a complete halt in those minutes, or we might go for high TO alternatives such as point forward Randle. Brogdon and Bogdan are good players that would slot nicely in the bench unit without disturbing the play of the team, and they might not be that expensive, we should go for one of them.
I have it on good authority that Thibs was adamantly against trading for Josh Hart and signing DDV but Brunson went to Uncle Leon and demanded that he pursue every ‘Nova alumnus who hits the open market or else. He then told Thibs that he’d better “play my guys” or else he’d go full Hardentard and start dogging it and demand a trade. I mean, you think Archie Diacono is on the bench because he’s a bonafide NBA player?
Yeah, fuck Thibs, it’s really Jalen Brunson who should win Executive of the Year….
Cam has been reinvented as a hustlebunny, a job at which he is mediocre. He’s a good defender but is a truly execrable offensive player. He has an 89 TS+ on 13.5 USG%, truly an impressive display of offensive ineptitude.
Even more impressive is the context: he has managed to compile these numbers despite usually sharing the floor with Lebron James.
ugh, that slightly more detail didn’t sound so encouraging…
maybe it’s my ears…
sounded to me like in 3 weeks it’s just as likely they’re going to decide he needs surgery as it is they will state his return in a couple of more weeks…
still, good to hear there is a chance he can make it back…
after the ankle injury i was unsure whether julius would play more tentatively to avoid additional injuries…
it doesn’t seem his nature to hold back…unless he’s gassed, and which case he can barely run at all…
The second unit has been better lately, but we’ve been playing weak teams recently. Let’s see if they keep on being better.
Brunson snubbed for Player of the Month in favor of Spida, but Thibs named Coach of the Month.
Guess they haven’t been keeping up on their Knickerblogger 🙂
If I may try my hand at some Doogieing for a moment, one’s career can not be derailed by congenital health problems. Their bodies are the rails they are on. Jay Williams’ career was derailed. Paul George’ broke both his tibia and his fibula in half and made the all star team 15 months later. Guys whose bodies can’t hold up to playing the game, simply aren’t good or useful. It’s who they are because it’s the way they were made. 99% of players that don’t succeed have this problem. It’s not Reddish or Frank specific.
The only thing Spida can beat Brunson at is media accolades and contracts.
Yo, check out the Bucks upcoming schedule… I smell the 2 seed!
at Dallas
at Utah*
at Phoenix
Minnesota
Charlotte*
Denver
Miami*
at Memphis
at Minnesota*
at Philadelphia
* 2nd night back to back
Great. OG and Grimes are out tonight.
Oh, Thibs definitely has a type and it looks like he’s looking to roll into the playoffs with a wing room of … yet again:
1. Low-usage, no creativity OG Anunoby
2. Josh Hart, HB and playoff dud
3. Donte Divincenzo, playoff dud
4. Quentin Grimes, HB and playoff dud
He is Kryptonite to wing creativity when the games matter, in large measure because he can squeeze out regular season wins with those types, which are self-evidently his type. Which is, in part, why he’s now 31-41 career in the playoffs.
You can trot out every regular season metric and it’s not convincing because you can point to something similar every single year. He was 16-4 going into the Hawks series, laying waste to the association. Quentin Grimes last year was the next Mikal Bridges. They have the 4th best net rating (*) in the association since the Josh Hart trade!!! And on and on and on and on.
From a risk-reward perspective, I would not go into the playoffs with that wing room. Might it work? I guess. But it probably won’t. And it’s all Thibs.
(*) Or whatever.
E that’s so interesting and it’s something you’ve never said before. Thanks for weighing in again.
Toppin on Toppin action tonight?
Charlie Brown minutes tonight?
Fournier is a go! Maybe he’ll make a shot tonight
Is Evan back?
EDIT: copy DRed
All we need is Bronte and a basketball.
E, I think you should start leading your posts off with “Let me tell ya something brother,” it would really drive your pro wrestling heel shtick home.
it’s crazy, but it is sort of starting to feel like that…
“Playoff dud” isn’t really a thing, I think most people here understand the fallacy of the small, non-random sample.
There is not much useful information to be gleaned from Josh Hart’s 300 minutes of playoff basketball (which aren’t even bad), or Donte DiVincenzo’s 400 minutes, or Grime’s 200 minutes, except how they perform vs the one or two teams they garnered those numbers against. You apply universal context to these data points, but, as an attorney, you must see the weakness of your own case, no?
E would have thought the Jerome James contract was a great idea
Got it, clearly you’re projecting for the second year in a row that the Knicks won’t win a series. I mean, they can’t! Tom Thibodeau is their coach after all. Maybe this time you’ll do better.