[The Athletic] – Mon, 04 Dec 2023 16:58:14 GMT
- Jalen Brunson, Knicks defense are soaring, and its no fluke
- Knicks News: Jalen Brunson leads NBA in impressive category, SNY’s trade targets
- Jalen Brunson Leads Knicks, NBA in Unexpected Statistic
- Jalen Brunson’s knack for drawing charges becoming key Knicks weapon: ‘Inspires’
- Knicks’ Villanova connection thriving on and off the court
- View Full Coverage on Google News
[Posting and Toasting] – Mon, 04 Dec 2023 12:00:00 GMT
Time for the Knicks to call up a familiar name?
[NBA.com] – Mon, 04 Dec 2023 21:15:02 GMT
- Kings’ De’Aaron Fox, Knicks’ Julius Randle named NBA Players of the Week
- Kings DeAaron Fox and Knicks Julius Randle claim NBA Player of the Week honors
- De’Aaron Fox, Julius Randle Named Players Of The Week
- Julius Randle Named Eastern Conference Player of the Week After MONSTER Performances
- Kings’ De’Aaron Fox Wins NBA-High Second Player of the Week Award
- View Full Coverage on Google News
[Posting and Toasting] – Mon, 04 Dec 2023 18:21:34 GMT
Breaking down DiVincenzos recent hot streak and what to expect going forward
[Milwaukee Journal Sentinel] – Mon, 04 Dec 2023 20:27:35 GMT
- Milwaukee Bucks out to win first NBA In-Season Tournament; Knicks next
- Knicks can reach In-Season Tournament semis by avenging Bucks loss: ‘Packed for Vegas’
- New York Knicks vs Milwaukee Bucks Prediction, Odds and Picks
- Bobby Portis Drops Truth Bomb on Milwaukee Bucks’ ‘Focus’ Ahead of IST Quarterfinals Vs. Knicks
- NBA Picks December 5th
- View Full Coverage on Google News
[Liberty Ballers] – Mon, 04 Dec 2023 20:48:11 GMT
Patrick Beverley was nominated for Eastern Conference Player of the Week
[Sportico] – Mon, 04 Dec 2023 15:03:04 GMT
Charles Oakley Demands $1 Million in Lawsuit Over Movies
[Yahoo Sports] – Tue, 05 Dec 2023 11:32:30 GMT
Milwaukee Bucks vs. New York Knicks: live game updates, stats, play-by-play
[Sports Illustrated] – Tue, 05 Dec 2023 11:02:47 GMT
Pacers Clinch Vegas Ticket, Celtics in NBA In-Season Tournament
91 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.12.05)”
It’s not the playoffs, but I’m looking forward to seeing what Randle can do in a more important game against a tough matchup while he’s healthy and playing well. There are no excuses. If he contributes to winning as much as his boxscore stats suggest, then he has to start showing it before we waste any more playoff runs with the sub par version that shows up half the time and in the playoffs.
IMO he doesn’t contribute a lot to winning over the long haul, which is why there is very little impact in his on/off and which is why no one is hot to trade for him.
It’s on him to prove me wrong.
Lol, Strat, please don’t set off Z-Man first thing in the morning. I can’t read another 50-comment flame war over Randle.
ess, I totally agree with Strat on the following:
-Randle has been terrible in the playoffs.
-if there’s a trade out there where we would exchange Randle for a better player, I’m all for it
Where we part ways is
-on Randle’s impact on winning during the regular season
-on his interpretation of his on-off numbers (which are eerily similar to Brunson’s for the last 2 years)
-on whether how he plays in the IST tonight has any relevance to the playoffs, beyond what we already know…that Giannis is a way better player than Julius.
But if Strat can propose how to replace Randle and his contract with a player that will make us just as likely to get us to the playoffs and make us more successful once we get there, I’m all ears!
Anyway, really excited about tonight…would love to see us us advance to Vegas and make a great impression on a national audience. And I would love to play Indiana in the semi’s on a neutral court, which would probably lean towards the big market team.
Apropos of nothing, it is in fact quite common for NBA players to be productive despite some amount of physical decline. Sometimes NBA players even set personal records for production past their purely physical prime!
A guy named LeBron is currently averaging 26/8/7 per-36 with a TS+ of 111 at age 39.
When that same guy was 22, he averaged 24/6/5 per-36 with a TS+ of 102.
Obviously a lot gets lost in this kind of box score glazing, but he’s clearly more productive in at least some ways now. I don’t think this LeBron fellow would argue he has every bit the physical capability now that he did when he was 22. I think he would argue adapting to some level of physical decline has forced him to play differently, i.e. smarter, and that has offset the production drop off from the physical decline.
All this to say, if someone, hypothetically, were to posit that Julius Randle is a human being and thus might be experiencing the common human phenomenon of not being able to do everything at 29 that he could at 24, that person would decidedly not be saying Julius Randle is doomed to be an unproductive NBA player.
I mean look, Randle is not without his flaws but the way we play— iso, iso, iso— is going to make some players look good and some look bad. Randle very rarely gets assisted baskets and has to create everything on his own. With the Lakers and Pels Randle was getting assisted on around 50% of his 2PT baskets and that number plummeted the day he walked through the door in NY and is at an all time low this year. “Here’s the ball, go make something happen” is how we use Julius Randle.
If you’re the kind of player who excels at iso, like Jalen Brunson, you’ll look great playing for this team. Julius Randle is really NOT that kind of player, and would be best served occasionally getting some passes that leads to easy baskets, but that is not the way we play.
We ask a lot of Randle, and because he is talented he can sort of pull it off. We’re forcing him into a role, the LeBron James do-it-all forward role, and he’s not really that kind of player. He gives it a go, and makes it work a lot of the time.
Julius Randle’s on/off numbers tell you next to nothing about how good he is, and it’s extraordinarily difficult to think of a Randle trade that would make the Knicks better in either the short or long term.
If he plays at or close to the level he did last year, we’re lucky to have him. That’s just far from a guarantee at the moment, a moment in which he ranks 45th in TS% among the 47 players with 500+ minutes and 25%+ usage.
He’s been playing very well recently though, hence him putting Jordan Poole and Josh Giddey in the rearview mirror in that ranking. He’s got a shot to be at least in the middle of the pack by season’s end. He’s done it before. Will probably need his 3PT% to start with a 3 for that though.
This is what Randle’s most dogged haters don’t appreciate. He makes it work a lot of the time, and does so while playing all the damn games. There’s no road-not-traveled version of this particular team that is better without him.
Since it’s year two of Brunson and Randle as teammates, it sure would be nice if they could get some improved two man game stuff working rather than just taking turns iso-ing.
Julius Randle’s on/off numbers tell you next to nothing about how good he is
this is very probably wrong
Randle’s biggest problem is inconsistency which is something that you really can’t have with one of your core players where you depend on his production…. he’s inconsistent because the drivers of his production have been from very volatile areas of the court… in 2021 it was 3pt shooting… last year it was floater/fade range shots…
the reality is that he’s useful… very useful at times but he’s just not that player… not until he develops a second act beyond bully ball… and even at 29 it’s not too late to do that but time is running out… power forwards usually develop a consistent jumper around this time or earlier… amare… webber.. garnett.. griffin… the list goes on… you can’t bully people forever and get the same results… and randle’s early season struggles point to that…. you might be able to do it for a week at a time… maybe string along a dozen or so games… but not even shaq who had to develop a hook shot later in his career… could do it year in and year out… father time is undefeated…. even if you are in incredible shape.. the league doesn’t age and they adjust and bullyball is one of the easiest things to adjust to for a pro….
which is why the most concerning part of randle’s early season struggles is how he’s performing at the line… he’s recently got it above 70% but he’s still at a career low… maybe it goes up… but at this stage in his career if he’s not going to be as effective down low …
he needs 3pt shooting.. he needs that mid range game to develop… or all-nba is long long gone and we’re going to get more 2022 randle from here on out… and maybe we’re better than the 37 wins cause of brunson… but it’s not going to be much more than that….
If on/off numbers are a reliable statistic, RJ Barrett has been an elite NBA player this year.
There’s lots of noise in that signal.
One thing that hurts Randle’s production and also his on/off is that he plays a ton of minutes with our awkwardly constructed starting lineup which features not one but two players who would rather have their eyeballs gouged out with a spoon than shoot the ball. He’s the 1A option in a 3 vs 5 offense an awful lot of the time.
RJ gets to play more with the more balanced second unit. Voila! Better on/off numbers.
on/off numbers in single years(even in multiple years) is a good way to lie with numbers….. this happens with poll reading in politics too when people dive into crosstabs… people know it’s an insufficient sample but they use it anyway if it helps their case.. and then ignore it if it shows them something different…
just don’t use it… it doesn’t mean anything….
Totally agree about poll reading, dj, and was going to say something similar.
I’m in an ongoing daily chat with two of my dear friends in which we discuss politics at length, and one of those friends likes to endlessly kvetch about poll numbers. My argument is always the same: poll numbers have lots of noise baked into them, and poll numbers a year out from an election have so much noise that they are completely meaningless.
His argument is that you can glean SOMETHING from those numbers, but my argument is that they’re best ignored.
Randle’s playoff performance so far means nothing.
2021 – first playoffs. We lost in 5 games in round one. Elf was our starting PG. Everyone points to Randle “choking” but who else, exactly, played well in that series? RJ didn’t. Elf certainly didn’t. Mitch didn’t even play cause he was hurt. We ended up starting Taj fucking Gibson by the end of that series. D Rose and Burks were the only one who did ok. Obi had a couple of cool dunks. IQ had a couple of good moments.
That team had no business being the 4th seed. Randle had no real help. Of course Atlanta could double him with no repercussions.
And then these last playoffs he was clearly hurt. Like he got surgery the second we were bounced. He missed some playoff games. He sat out the last 2 weeks of the regular season because of that injury and if it had happened earlier in the season, he would have sat out longer or gotten surgery.
You’re talking about a grand total of 16 games. 11 of which were this season when he was hurt and 5 of which were against Atlanta when our team was paper thin and Elf was our starting PG.
So I’m gonna call bullshit. Also, plenty of all-star players have had bad playoff runs only to be fine the next time they’re in the playoffs.
It’s actually less than 16 games cause he missed a few this year.
Disagree. I mean, if you want to say it doesn’t mean he’s doomed to be a poor playoff performer forever, sure, I agree. But it’s hardly a meaningless data point.
It’s not like he’d be the first high-usage shot creator whose efficiency couldn’t translate to the playoffs, where you tend to face better defenses and be more rigorously scouted at both the individual and team level. Some guys are talented enough to bring it in the regular season, but just can’t consistently make it happen in the playoffs.
Some of you might remember Carmelo Anthony. He played 83 playoff games and mustered a .513 TS% in them, which is kind of incredible actually.
DeRozan has played 63 playoff games and put up a .502 TS%.
AI was never all that efficient to begin with, but he played 71 playoff games and his .489 TS% was substantially lower than his already low career figure.
To be sure, all these guys probably could’ve swung it in a lesser role. They weren’t, like, cursed. They were just exposed as not having the truly elite talent you need to have to succeed as a high-usage shot creator in the playoffs. It’s a real thing, and it might be true of Randle.
he’s right.. you can glean SOMETHING.. but it’s probably not what he thinks it is.. it doesn’t really tell you much about how the election will turn out….
that doesn’t mean the polls a year out were wrong… they tell you what people are feeling at the time… and most people in non-trump years are totally tuned out on politics.. and the people who respond to those things at this time got something to say and it’s usually not very nice…
once people are tuned in… and people will be forced to tune in once campaigns/trials start… that’s when polls start meaning something for the election…
so swifty… what games count for you? was randle healthy these last 4 games? can we start counting from last week and this is the real randle going forward?
Which is why we’re not a real contender: in the playoffs “fake it till you make it” doesn’t work. Randle might look like a reasonable LeBron facsimile against the Raptors and Hornets of the world, but chips are won by players who are so good there is literally no way to gameplan against them.
The fact that we don’t have one of those God-tier players isn’t Julius Randle’s fault.
I don’t even think it’s that complicated. Like dj said, Randle just needs to shoot better, particularly from the line and from three.
He’s in the best position he’s been in with this team: Brunson has taken over as Batman to his Robin, he now has shooters and cutters to pass to, and with 2 excellent centers and better perimeter D, he only needs to be ok on defense.
So hopefully the shot comes around. Look, an ankle issue or anything else that fucks with your base, can affect your shot. So it’s not a huge surprise those numbers are low thus far.
Honestly, I’m more worried about RJ sinking back into the abyss of dread…
Randle is a very good player. Sure he has his deficiencies which is why he’s not an elite player. But he’s had a great Knicks career and probably deserves a bit more benefit of the doubt than he gets.
I (once again) think Randle is being underrated in the posts above.
re: physical decline, just about every player has some level of physical decline in some respects between age 20 and 30. However, players dedicated to year-around fitness (like LeBron and yes, Julius) actually improve physically in other ways, such as core strength and muscle mass. As such, I don’t object to the general concept of some sort of a physical decline curve. I object to the (imo totally unfounded) insinuation that this sort of marginal decline would have any kind of significant impact on Randle’s on-court efficacy, any more than one would have worried about it for LeBron at a similar age. Randle is generally one of the best conditioned athletes in the entire association. Much was made about his legendary Summer 2022 training regimen. He went on to physically beat the shit out of opponents for 77 straight games until he hurt his ankle at the end of the regular season, and aggravated it by trying to play through it in the playoffs. Then he had ankle surgery and was limited in what he could do. I don’t get why anyone wouldn’t give him the benefit of the doubt, and instead would choose to raise red flags. And here we are 6 weeks into the regular season and he wins Player of the Week by physically demolishing our three opponents in the paint, same way he did last year. He’s actually taking more shots at the rim than last year, and he took more shots at the rim last year than he did the year before. After an understandably terrible start he is back over 60% from there. Since the start of last season, he’s been getting to the line and dunking the ball at his higher rates as a Knick.
re: style of play, I vehemently disagree that he is not well-suited to iso ball…in fact, I think he’s very well suited for it. However, I think he is not well-suited to being a team’s #1 offensive option/decision-maker no matter what style of play his coach prefers. Thanks to Brunson, on this team he doesn’t have to be, and the numbers suggest that he’s comfortable in the #2 role. I would prefer that we get a #2 or 2A option, but for now I think he’s very well-suited for what he does, and the all-NBA voters seem to agree.
Brunson has proven to be a pretty good player in the playoffs…
Dude, give me a break. You know for a fact that he was hurt in the playoffs. He literally sat out for 2 weeks before the playoffs because of the ankle injury. We all saw how bad it was when it happened. He literally got surgery the second the playoffs ended and he missed a few games during the playoffs because of it.
Give me one example of a player in the history of the NBA who had a serious high ankle sprain, missed 2 weeks and immediately played at their peak performance level on their first game back.
You LOVE to be negative just for the sake of it. Give it up.
Asking me what games count is a stupid fucking question. They all count. But he was hurt. Full stop. Acting like an ankle injury that causes a dude to miss the last 2 weeks of the season shouldn’t be accepted as a reasonable explanation for why he didn’t perform well is beyond fucking stupid.
I hope this is wrong because we’d be very wise to trade Julius Randle after this season ends. And that has nothing to do with his current performance.
Next year will be his age 30 season and a contract year. I am very grateful for Julius Randle but his game does not project to age well and I don’t want to be left holding the bag.
Sell high, like I did with my RJ Barrett stock three weeks ago.
i’m just asking if you consider him healthy and we can start counting these games as the real randle…. lest we get to the all star break and he’s not marginally better and all of a sudden his ‘injury’ extended all season now….
but i guess that would never happen….
and i don’t know where people get off on me beign negative.. i am negative about one aspect of the team… i have been WILDLY more positive on others… namely RJ.. namely the original Randle acquisition.. namely… after Randle’s disastrous first year… namely Mitch… and Brunson…
do not mix things up…. you were on the other side of alot of those arguments and i never accused you of having some sort of bias… i am not paid to have these opinions… i back everything i say… people do not need to be astroturfers or have some sort of agenda in order to disagree with you….
you could just be wrong… or that other people have different opinions… fun people should realize this… if you’re going to carry the badge for the blog you gotta wake up or we gotta put you in timeout homey….
Against certain defenses, Randle is an effective iso player. When the opposing defense doesn’t have the right defenders to stop his bully ball game, he can really go off. His two all-NBA appearances reflect that. I said as much above: he gives it a go, and makes it work a lot of the time.
That runs into a bit of a wall in the playoffs, as sooner or later you run into a team that figures out a way to minimize the impact of Randle’s brute force iso game. Which is really not a knock on him: my thesis here is that we would need LeBron-level play from him to make a run at a chip, and that’s an unreasonable expectation.
Julius Randle as third banana would be a REALLY nice player. Julius Randle as 1A comes with a built-in ceiling.
Wait, this is literally all I was ever saying. You agree? Sheesh, we could’ve saved everyone so much unpleasantness!
Randle hasn’t taken so much as 25% of his shots at the rim since he was 25. It’s really a remarkably low number for someone his size who is nominally a power forward. A lot of that is scheme and roster related, but it seems obvious to me the optimized version of Randle would at least trade some floater range shots for some more shots at the rim if he was willing and able to do so.
I don’t think he’s just being an idiot, though. I think in his young 20s he could take over half his shots at the rim and now, well, at a minimum he would strongly prefer not to do that.
I think the Julius we have is a much more complete player than the bruiser of his youth, but ideally we’d have both.
If history is any indication this post will be construed as me being a dedicated hater who thinks Julius Randle is deep fried. Oh well.
Randle as a small ball 5 with shooters around him is probably the best version of him but our roster has never been constructed to take advantage of this and even if it were I think our coach would rather get his teeth pulled.
wow, swifty blew a gasket!
I agree with BBA and Swifty in the sense that Randle is under-appreciated for what he does. His game is often ugly, his turnovers are glaring, and his defensive lapses are infuriating. But he is the #1 reason this team has made the playoffs in 2 of the last 3 years and is on a bargain contract when considering his age and years in the league.
I agree that if he’s your best player, you have a hard ceiling that is below true contender. But that’s true for Brunson as well. No team with Brunson as it’s best player is a true contender, unless, as with Julius, you have an entire rotation of legit #2 options. I think what JK said about our starting lineup having 2 non-shooters putting offensive pressure on the other 3 is valid…not to mention that one of those 3 is the mercurial RJ Barrett.
The good news is that I can see us acquiring another Randle-Brunson-level player and getting to the contender level without an MVP-type. At the very least, we need to swap out either Grimes, RJ, or Mitch (in that order) with a bonafide two-way player who is somewhere in the all-star discussion. If RJ recovers his early season form, then the focus should be on the other two positions. The notion that we need to get better by trading Randle is pretty much the same as we need to get better by trading Brunson. Both guys are almost certain to be here for the next 2 years, and very probably 3.
“Wait, this is literally all I was ever saying. You agree? Sheesh, we could’ve saved everyone so much unpleasantness!”
Sure that’s all you were ever saying. Right.
“Randle hasn’t taken so much as 25% of his shots at the rim since he was 25. It’s really a remarkably low number for someone his size who is nominally a power forward. A lot of that is scheme and roster related, but it seems obvious to me the optimized version of Randle would at least trade some floater range shots for some more shots at the rim if he was willing and able to do so.”
So he his physical decline peaked age 25 and has now leveled off? Otherwise you are actually making my point…it’s not at all about decline…he is actually improving on his age 25-26 numbers.
My main issue with Randle has been his pouting, getting angry with teammates and sometimes it seems like he doesn’t even make an effort (especially on defense). I do appreciate what he has brought to the team, helping us make the playoffs 2 out of the last 3 years, but it is hard to overlook those other items.
I have noticed the Knicks trying a little more pick and pop with Randle and Brunson. Whoever ends up with the better match up then iso’s. I haven’t seen any numbers yet, but I think it’s been working. I, like Clashfan, would love to see more of it.
howdy donnie…thanks for the info…that’s kind of the number i thought, somewhere between 10 and 13 young ones…although, I imagine by now some have moved past the young person stage…
do you ever sit and think that most likely your purpose for your life was simply to be a dad and do your best to raise good people and healthy humans?
I still think about Dude in Knicks Town (something to that effect i think)…
i recall how despite possibly coming to the end of their time here with us – their focus was on staying around to serve their family…
there is just such incredible power and peace in that type of resolve…the focus/spirit to serve…
wishing you well on your journey Dude 😊
Just to be pedantic (on KB??!), we don’t really have two non-shooters. We have one shooter who won’t shoot because (mystery space), and one guy who I suspect would love to take 15 shots a game but Thibs would taser him if he tried.
Remember that cross-over dribble-drive slam?
And yet, every time you’ve accused me of saying all the maximalist nonsense I never said, you’ve had to backtrack.
What I am saying is what I literally said in the post. Crazy concept, I know.
Lot of ink for Randle. Seems like a typically diffuse argument.
I agree with points made on all side. (magnanimous!)
I think Julius is a unicorn in that he probably is the highest variance All-NBA player in recent memory. He has been dogshit for full years and very good for full years. It’s not typical of NBA players who generally are what you think they are most of the time barring injury.
I have never been a huge fan because I think you give a lot up a lot when your power forward is only adequate defensively but he was cheap and he has been hugely productive and healthy most of the time. He’s been a pretty great way to win 45 games.
All I know is there is basketball happening soon and I am kind of stoked about it…
“I don’t think he’s just being an idiot, though. I think in his young 20s he could take over half his shots at the rim and now, well, at a minimum he would strongly prefer not to do that.”
Why are we having this discussion in the context of his age 24-25 seasons and before? Are you suggesting that he had some kind of massive decline between his NOP season and his first NYK season that robbed him of his ability to score at the rim?
Why wouldn’t we draw the baseline at his first NYK season when he was 25? Since we have zero ability to determine what he would be able to do if he changed his shot profile to his pre-NYK years, why would we even hypothesize about it? Oh wait, are you actually complimenting Julius by saying that if he WERE able to play that way, he would just do it because it would be idiotic not to? In other words, the alternative to physical decline is sheer idiocy for not playing the way you think he should play?
Please explain why putting up stronger interior numbers than he has since he joined the Knicks at age 25 suggests that he has physically declined, other than the only alternative explanation is that he’s being an idiot…
I would like to vote that Z-Man stand down from the fight-picking and instead focus on something much more pleasant, say, how RJ is rapidly declining physically despite being… only age 23?
Mitchell Robinson’s shot-blocking numbers have steadily decreased and are at an all-time low. His TS% has cratered, and his FG% at the rim has decreased for 3 straight years. He’s almost 26, so maybe we should start talking about the possibility of physical decline being responsible for that.
Ha. Okay, let’s instead just ban the use of the term “Please explain” on this site, as it is the single most passive-aggressive version of “Jane, you ignorant slut!” that I’ve ever come across…
Raven, I agree that in the case of both RJ and Randle, nothing about any change in overall physical ability (outside of injury) explains anything about their performance on the court during the past 5 years.
i think it’s obvious that randle is notably less quick and less explosive than he was five years ago. he is also a lot stronger and his handle is much better. but that’s nothing compared to mitch. i seriously doubt mitch could finish 2/3 of the lobs he got as a sophomore, when he mashed 2.2 lobs per 36 vs .8 he’s put down since the beginning of last year. but explosion isn’t everything.
“i think it’s obvious that randle is notably less quick and less explosive than he was five years ago.”
Eye test from pt? Shocking.
Really looking forward to tonight’s game where certain issues in today’s thread are at play. I look at this game (given my view on liking the IST) as at least equivalent to the first game of the first round of the playoffs on the road—in terms of pressure to perform. We know JB will have a good game. Love to see JR and IQ also shine.
Randle is one of the least controversial NBA players I have ever seen. Arguing about him for two days straight is special.
Let’s see…
Starters:
Giannis vs. Randle
Lillard vs. Brunson
Beasley vs. Grimes
Middleton vs. RJ
Lopez vs. Mitch
Do we win any of those matchups?
Bench:
Portis vs. iHart
Payne vs. IQ
Beauchamp vs. JHart
Connaughton vs. DDV
Do we lose any of those matchups?
We’re pretty equal in 3pt% but MIL is second in 2pt% and we’re dead last. We’re better at offensive rebounding, they’re better at defensive rebounding. They are 5th in pace, we’re next to last.
Based on all of this, my feeling is that this would be way more of a great win than a bad loss. We just don’t match up well with the Bucks’ starters. Our best bet is to be more fired up for the game than the Bucks, like Indy seemed more fired up than the Celts last night, but that will be a lot harder to do on the road.
!!!!
This team as currently constructed should be way better at handling star guards like Haliburton or Lillard than it is with athletic freak guys like Giannis, so I think we have a decent chance if Mitch can stay out of foul trouble when Giannis drives and if Hart, Grimes, Divo or IQ, whoever gets the minutes, can do a good job on Lillard. Middleton is looking very washed and our bench is a lot better.
The tough thing about going up against superstars like Giannis is that all of that might not matter if he dominates, so I hope Randle rises up to the challenge of at least bothering him on defense and forcing him to play hard the whole game.
The tough thing about going up against superstars like Giannis is that all of that might not matter if he dominates
:(((
The fact that Mitch has lost some athleticism has been discussed here ad nauseam! He’s still a better player than the rookie that seemed to have trampolines on his shoes because he’s gotten smarter and stronger. Only in Z-Man World is this topic verboten for some weird reason.
Really one of the dumber conversations I’ve ever been dragged into on here.
% of FGA at the rim:
23-24: 25%
22-23: 22%
21-22: 25%
20-21: 16%
19-20: 36%
18-19: 45%
17-18: 55%
I don’t know what “stronger interior numbers” you’re talking about–he’s converting these at a lower rate than he has since what was realistically his rookie year.
It would be complete charlatan behavior to look at the 3% increase between last year and the first 19 games of this year and declare the idea that Randle has perhaps lost some physical ability since he was 25 dead in the water, so I hope that’s not what you’re on about.
The trend here is clear as day. As I’ve said repeatedly, it doesn’t mean Randle is no longer a damn impressive physical specimen or that he can no longer be productive. He is and he can be.
Just stop taking it personally when someone says it’s possible that he, like most human beings, doesn’t have all of the physical abilities at 29 that he did at 25. It’s weird.
Yes. In post-game comments, Thibs likes to repeat, ~ “We always look for a double team and then spray to the open man.” I bet Thibs only *teaches them to iso into doubles and then find the guy standing in the corner. That would explain some of Julius’s whirling dervish stuff and why Grimes/Obi/whoever is always standing around bored waiting for the pass. Honestly, I think that is The Thibs offense. With Jalen it kind of works. With Elfrid Payton, not so much. With Derek Rose …
Whenever our guys show more “complicated” cutting and/or passing, even lobs, it always strikes me as institutional knowledge from some other institution, like college/Villanova. Thibs will tolerate all that “razzle dazzle” if it’s working. But if it misses once, twice, then timeout. On the other hand, I’m not sure Thibs has ever called a timeout to scold players for too much ISO 😉
what’s funny is that in the background there’s some ad for a company named: Terra (real veggie chips)…
yeah, ain’t nothing “terra” about that pic…who is that underneath him – tim hardaway jr getting to smell whether giannis showered recently or not…
At least we’ll always have that one moment where Hezonja dunked on Giannis and then stepped over him…
Also remembering that it happened 5 years ago makes me feel a lot less inclined to discuss the shortcomings of this team and appreciate the fact that we don’t have to watch that type of dumpster fire anymore.
Wasn’t Giannis the player that fouled KP when he tore his knee up?
appreciate the fact that we don’t have to watch that type of dumpster fire anymore
Bruno you nailed it.
We don’t need to talk about Mr November at the moment and that’s another thing I am stoked about.
Mr November is a great tune by The National though….
We did this before-are you saying Randle precipitously declined physically when he got to the Knicks and was 25 years old? Or did he change from being a post up center to one who had the ball away from the rim and had to initiate offense?
golf broadcasts, quetiapine and The National are all wonderful naptime aids
We can make a list of passive aggressive expressions sometime. It may be helpful to some uninitiated learkers. I’ll contribute this golden oldie and say to absolutely no one here, “I’m sorry you feel that way”.
“I don’t know what “stronger interior numbers” you’re talking about–he’s converting these at a lower rate than he has since what was realistically his rookie year.”
Last year, Randle converted 68% of his FGA at the rim, his highest number since he became a Knick at age 25 and higher than he did in his age 21 and 22 seasons. He did that while shooting more at the rim than he has in any of the 4 years under Thibs. The decrease in shots at the rim, especially once Thibs got here, coincided with a purposeful increase in 3PAr, consistent with the direction of the NBA game in general. It hit a low point the year he shot 40% from 3, then kicked back up to a more sustainable level for a 3-level scorer. His shooting % at the rim is within 1% of what it was in his Laker years. He had more and1’s and fewer shots blocked by a mile, and committed fewer offensive fouls than he did in his two pre-Knicks years.
This year he is coming back from ankle surgery and clearly was hampered early on, reportedly at 70% but refusing to sit and rest. Might he never come back to 100% because of that injury? It’s possible, but the last few games are pretty promising.
You are certainly welcome to interpret his stats how you like in order to justify your concerns about possible Julius’s age-related decline. I’ll just sit back and hope that he declines himself right back into the all-NBA conversation by year’s end.
Certainly don’t want to elongate the Julius debate (though I most likely am) but lost in this what he was before/ what he is today is that he won the MIP award WHILE on the Knicks. Criteria for that award seems nebulous but he has got to be the epitome of a worthy winner—in the league long enough that your ceiling is pretty well known, spend a long off season developing your game, and putting up numbers no one thought likely. That for me was of more value than his all NBA selection.
for the record… randle was never a postup center… the lakers and the pels were pretty high pace teams and so most of those rim attempts were probably in transition….
but what impacts his rim%s more is not that… but how often he shoots 3s…. which along with the pace change was his finding more and more of his shots into 3pt territory…. which makes sense.. if you can’t find easy buckets in transition they had to come from somewhere and getting 50% at them at the rim at significant volume is not really possible for any non-giannis big….
so in short.. you guys are probably both right and wrong…. and there’s enough reason to believe that his physical skills have eroded where he’s had to get more and more of his shots at the 3pt line but also that his rim%s now are more a function of pace….
Well, i don’t know who said Melo over Randle for the most polarizing in the history of Knickerblogger, but this thread is trying to prove the opposite! 😀
one of my faves darules: “That is a very interesting perspective you have”
maybe even better yet, the incredulous: “Really?”
which immediately conveys that you think someone is full of shit, but you do not feel like putting in the effort to point it out…
Yeah Geo, he was a cool dude!
I’m with you, Bruno. I’m currently happy with the team we have, and i understand Leon’s patience. At some point he’ll have to do something to improve our odds at a championship, but for now this is a fun team to root for.
Really? 😀
iirc (and please correct me if this is not accurate) the concerns about Randle’s physical decline were first raised in Summer 2022. It was in the context of the off-season discussion about whether/how Julius might bounce back from his “most detrimental in the NBA” performance in 2021-22. One view was that:
a) his 3p% and long-2% in 2020-21 were empty-gym outliers that predictably regressed,
b) his most feasable road back to efficiency was to dramatically increase his percentage of attempts at the rim to something close to what it was pre-Knicks, to shoot less 3’s and to eliminate long 2’s (ie. a shot profile more like that of his NOP year), but…
c) he might not be capable of doing that at the same efficiency as before because he couldn’t physically play that way any more even if he wanted to, which he probably didn’t, so…
d) he was likely enough to remain a detrimental player on what would become an albatross extension and should be traded at the first opportunity in an “asset neutral” deal, or for some (not TNFH!) with sweetener included.
Lo and behold, last year he has the 3rd most dunks in his career, including these.
Whatever the list of worries we might have had about Randle, physical decline should have been at the very bottom. And it still should. That’s just an opinion, of course.
This would not make me wrong, as the first thing I said on the topic today, intentionally bolded, was:
I hope so too, but I still think the 29 year-old who shoots way less at the rim than he did when he was 25 is doing so PARTIALLY because his physical abilities have changed.
God forbid Knicks loose tonight, – are they playing in Boston tomorrow night?
cyber, I don’t think Julius is as polarizing as Melo. There’s really only one holdout who thinks we should dump Randle (Mr. E) and one who is in the neighborhood of that (strat). The vast majority of posters (including me and TNFH) are pretty close in our takes on how valuable he is to the current team as currently constructed. A lot changed when he turned himself around, especially with his willingness to defer a huge chunk the “straw that stirs the drink” role to Brunson.
Melo was harder to embrace because he was truly an ill-fated all-in acquisition that gutted the team and its pick cache, and beyond a lucky amnesty that allowed us to sign Chandler, there seemed to be no way to acquire the complementary players we still needed to go all the way. It didn’t help that the Celts big 3 and LeBron’s prime killed any chance to get to the finals, or that the coach, FO, and owner were hardly likable. He actively dissed Linsanity. He milked every dollar out of his tenure. And that Phil foolishly extended him on a near-max deal with a no-trade clause just twisted the knife for a few more years. All while Melo could do no wrong for some.
I don’t think Randle will ever reach that level of polarizing ability. The biggest issue right now seems to be whether he is capable of performing well in the playoffs. To me, it’s a valid question until he proves otherwise, to some others it is negatively answered already, and to yet others it is unfair due to circumstances. Tonight’s game will probably add fuel to that fire.
“I hope so too, but I still think the 29 year-old who shoots way less at the rim than he did when he was 25 is doing so PARTIALLY because his physical abilities have changed.”
Care to venture a percentage? Otherwise, that statement is true whether it’s 1% or 99% due to physical decline over other considerations such as scheme and roster. You must have a ball-park estimate in mind. Tell you what, I’ll give you 5-10% as my estimate for things like vertical/lateral speed, but will take it back for gains in strength, body control, and ball skills.
One of those considerations might be that he could increase his attempts at the rim to what they were pre-Knicks, but doesn’t want to because doing so might cause physical decline as he moves into his 30’s.
‘The biggest issue right now seems to be whether he is capable of performing well in the playoffs.’
I’d put consistency ahead of that one. I do think his crap play earlier in the year was a combo of injury and lack of off-season prep. And my ‘sense’ is he’s rounding into form. His last (two?) games, I don’t remember a single “you moron!” moment from him, which is fantastic.
We’ve seen that he can have extended stretches of total focused play at a very high level. We’ve also seen him fall apart in inexplicable ways where he’s not making the effort and/or his decision-making goes to shit. Fingers crossed we’re moving into the former. Honestly, max turnovers = 2 per game and I’m fairly happy.
Speaking of such, the TNT halftime goons just raked Zion over the coals yesterday for not being in NBA shape and just jogging around the court.
1. Just for the record, I think Brunson’s on/off is directly impacted by Quickley being his substitute. Quickley is probably the 2nd best player on the team given he plays both sides. I think Brunson’s on/off record in Dallas is also evidence of his positive impact. He spent a lot of time being the primary substitute for Doncic and the team did well enough with Brunson on the court. We saw that again in the playoffs. But his impact has not been as big as it appears based on all he does on offense. His defense has been weak. This year I think he’s improved.
2. I think moving Randle will be difficult even with his seemingly attractive contract even though he has impressive box score stats, all star appearances and All-NBA awards. I’m not the only one that thinks his box score stats overrate his impact on winning. I think it would have to be Randle + either a quality player and/or picks for an upgrade. I have no idea who that player could be because I can’t think of a single team that is saying to themselves, “If we only had Randle”.
3. I’m not expecting Randle to outplay Giannis. I’m expecting him to show up on both sides and play well. He better do that much.
Randle would shoot more at the rim now if he was playing C in space some of the time like he used to for other teams and/or if there was space in the paint now because we had a stretch C.
I’ve been saying for going on years now that Randle is not a great fit with Mitch because Mitch’s man is always in the area and can help. When Randle tries to drive there’s a double team waiting for him more than we’d like. RJ faces the same issue.
The most important thing is obviously the quality of the players, but fitting the pieces together in a complimentary way matters. We still have issues in that area. The spacing isn’t as bad as in the Payton era when I was screaming about it. Brunson can shoot. But RJ/Randle/Mitch is not ideal for anyone including themselves.
When Randle was on the Pellies at least his efg was like 40-50 points higher when he played at center than when he played at PF. HIs role and usage changed significantly when he joined the Knicks
A lot changed when he turned himself around, especially with his willingness to defer a huge chunk the “straw that stirs the drink” role to Brunson.
this does not give me the same feels. what else was he supposed to do? knock brunson off the ball? demand a trade? he still took a career hi in fga/36, he didn’t exactly send himself to grimesville. there’s not a decent team in the league who would aspire to have randle be the absolute center of their offense. he’s not kd, he’s julius randle. an excellent high level lead guard joins your team and you are going to take a few less dribbles and make a few less passes.
in the clutch last year brunson had 91 fga with a ts of 62.2pct, 17 assists and 5 turnovers. randle had 74 fga with a ts of 51.9, 18 assists and 21 turnovers. he probably should have deferred more.
he still often steps up to take technicals with multiple better shooters on the floor, last year he took 17 and jalen took 15. so far this year i think he’s only 1-2 but he’s also shooting 70pct from the line.
he’s also really been rough when it comes to playing transition d these last two years. his average speed on the court has dropped down to the very bottom of the league this season — jokic and brook lopez levels. yeah average speed doesn’t tell a full story but i am guessing you agree that it can be painful watching slower guys two steps behind regularly beat him down the court. it’s off putting for a guy who is supposed to be famously in shape, especially when his 5 foot 2 partner in crime is sticking his torso in front of trains 5 times a game on that end.
julius is a beast and and seems very likable irl, but i get why the basketball vibes are mixed, even aside from the up and down results.
If Knickerblogger was around in the 90’s would Ewing have been this polarizing too?
The biggest difference with him from Melo and Randle is he played defense every night and you could never question his effort. Plus Ewing was just a much better and more impactful player than both. But I assume Ewing’s offensive game would’ve been pretty scrutinized here.
If Knickerblogger was around in the 90’s would Ewing have been this polarizing too?
ewing gave the thumb before it was cool
”They’re annoying me,” Ewing said, talking calmly but firmly about Knicks fans after the game. ”If they’re going to act the way they act, they might as well stay home. If they’re going to support us, then support us. If you go other places, when the team is playing bad, the fans still support them. Here, they support you one minute, then if something goes wrong, they jump off the bandwagon. I’m just tired of it. It has been like that for 12 years. I’m fed up with it.”
https://www.nytimes.com/1996/12/09/sports/ewing-calls-foul-on-booing-knick-fans.html
Do we need more than those three “little” things?
They make all the difference in the world.
Ewing never won a championship, so at minimum E wouldn’t like him.
Randle shouldn’t be controversial. We all know he’s the most athletic idiot in the world. If we could trade him straight-up for anyone else on his level, we’d do it in a second. The problem is that there are very few players on his level.
More ex-Knicks thriving:
I wasn’t a huge fan of Ewings mid range game
no one sweats anymore like patrick ewing did…
“…this does not give me the same feels. what else was he supposed to do? knock brunson off the ball? demand a trade?”
Well in the context of the whole thumbs down thing, and the media bashing him (deservedly, but I digress) while jumping on the Brunson Bandwagon before the ink was dry on his UFA contract, he definitely might have requested a trade behind the scenes. Hell, maybe he did!
He also could have become a passive-aggressive brooding teammate. He could have pulled a Harden, or a Kyrie, or a LaVine.
Instead, he busted his ass all summer to become better, swallowed his pride, accepted being second fiddle (at least to fans and media), adjusted his shot profile, and won most of his critics over with his all-NBA play, this time not in empty buildings or with quirky 3pt shooting.
I don’t think that earns him sainthood or anything, but I appreciate that he saw it through, knowing how many others would have been broken by the harshness of the criticism directed towards him. I honestly didn’t think he had it in him to come back to the degree that he did.
Ewing wasn’t perfect, but he was a championship caliber #1 option. He needed more help than several management regimes never provided. A much smaller portion of that is on him than on Melo. At least he got us to a finals game 7.
3 point shooting stretch Ewing would have been interesting